Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2000



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Aliens Vol 1
Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
Re: Jspace
Re: Jspace
Re: Noisy Cricket Plasma Pistol
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2
Pirates exist because...
Jumpspace Dementia
Re: Jump Technical Qs...
TRTOOLS v0.95
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1999
The Solomani Rim in Marc Miller's Traveller
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Plasma Pistol (FF&S2 Recoil)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Pirates exist because...
Re: Jspace
Re: Pirates exist because...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:45:38 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Aliens Vol 1

On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:01:37 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

>Paolo Marino wrote:
>> 
>>Still about piracy... I understand the various arguments *against* it, but,
>>IMHO, there is a very canonical reason to accept the fact the Piracy is a
>>constant threat in any milieu, even during CT.
>> 
>>If piracy wasn't so common, why should the Imperium allow any civilian ship
>>to mount weapons? Whenever you buy or have a ship built for you, you may
>>*always* get "civilian grade" weapons and defense systems, no question asked.

Paolo, either there is another reason why the Imperium allows civilian
weapons (basic philosophy perhaps) or we have what is technically known as
a discrepancy. The interesting thing about two conflicting facts is that
if you take them in isolation it is imposible to say which one is true
and which one is false. All you can say is that IF Fact A is right then
Fact B is wrong. What you ignore is that IF Fact B is right the it is
Fact A that is wrong.

>>This means that the Imperium admits that Piracy is always possible. If this
>>was not the case, nobody could have weapons/armor/sandcaster on his ship.

Right. And if everybody had weapons then a pirate would either have to be
sufficiently stronger than the norm that he would be instantly suspicious
or he would be able to pass for a merchant, but unable to outfight another
merchant. 

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes: 
>And while we are at it, 1 G is good enough for civilian ships.  Anything
>more and you are probably plotting on overtaking someone.  SLOW DOWN
>those hopped up ships!

Douglas, if you know how a 3G merchant ship can compete with a 1G ship of
the same jump rating, feel free to enlighten the rest of us.
 
>Let's institute mandatory downloading of your ship's log when you jump
>into a system.

Douglas, previously published material (PPM for short) says that the
Imperium requires you to broadcast your identity when you enter a system.
Think of it as shouting your licences plate number at every cop you pass
in your car. And I see nothing unreasonable in assuming that the transponder
shares some of the characteristics of a flight recorder and that the ship's
log is supposed to be difficult to tamper with. In fact, I believe that TNE
claims it is (of course, TNE also claims that the transponders are completely 
tamperproof, which is contrary to PPM).

>These logs won't fill up much of the infinite memory mandated for Navy ships

Let's see. Assume one T of merchant shipping per 1000 citizens in the
Imperium. That would be 15,000,000,000 T. Assume an average size of 400 T
for merchants. That would be 37,500,000. Assume an entry size of 10K for
a ship registration file. That would be 375,000 M, or 750 times more than
my PC can handle. Yeah, I guess a TL 15 computer would be unable to handle
that (See, I can babble with the best).

> [babbling quietly in his corner of the interworld]

Douglas? Douglas? Are you there? <SLAP!> Dammit, Douglas, get a grip!

There! Are you feeling better now?

 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:32:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jspace

Yes, you=B4re right! There really is a face out there in Jump.
But you don=B4t have to be afraid of it. You must know, it=B4s the face of =
god!
That=B4s what we=B4ve said all the way, the Disciples of the Bright Way ...

Now set the fun aside, I think of Jumpspace as a threedimensional visual=20
disturbance. (Imagine staring on a television set between two channels=20
for an hour or so, and you get a feeling of Jump Sickness.)
This would fit to the theory of randomly emitted electromagnetic waves=20
from outside the Jump Bubble, and too, there could be static for psionics=
=20
aboard. If the Jumpspace would be the carrier for Psionics (like the=20
ether), there would be a) possibility to eavesdrop on telepathy, and b)=20
psionics would reach farther than planetary (which the rules say does not).

Any comments?

Lars Adler=20
(I=B4m a newbie, since one and a half years...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:32:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jspace

Yes, you=B4re right! There really is a face out there in Jump.
But you don=B4t have to be afraid of it. You must know, it=B4s the face of =
god!
That=B4s what we=B4ve said all the way, the Disciples of the Bright Way ...

Now set the fun aside, I think of Jumpspace as a threedimensional visual=20
disturbance. (Imagine staring on a television set between two channels=20
for an hour or so, and you get a feeling of Jump Sickness.)
This would fit to the theory of randomly emitted electromagnetic waves=20
from outside the Jump Bubble, and too, there could be static for psionics=
=20
aboard. If the Jumpspace would be the carrier for Psionics (like the=20
ether), there would be a) possibility to eavesdrop on telepathy, and b)=20
psionics would reach farther than planetary (which the rules say does not).

Any comments?

Lars Adler=20
(I=B4m a newbie, since one and a half years...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:35:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Noisy Cricket Plasma Pistol

BureauX Agents(aka the Commander's Very Own MIB's) have intercepted the 
following message:

>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:41:03 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>Subject: Re: "Noisy Cricket" Plasma Pistol

>[description of handgun for suicides snipped]

>>OOC:  Gawds!  I never thought the recoil on this thing would be so 
high.=20
>> This is truly a  "Noisy Cricket"! :-)  I would think a Formidable or=20
>>Staggering roll of STR would be necessary to avoid injury when firing 
this=
>=20
>>weapon.

>You are clearly designing weapons using some kind of rules system ... from
>what book?

Fire Fusion and Steel, T4 Version (aka FF&S2)

>Are there systems for designing other things as well (my players have weird
>ideas) ? Missiles, ship cannons etc. ...

You betcha!

<Shameless Plug>
If you want to see a few more weird ideas, set your browser co-ordinates to
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
This will take you to the X-TEK Corporate website.  From there go to 
products and services. Much of the starship weapons were designed with this 
system.  Also the full stats for some FF&S2 designed vehicles are in "The 
Gravatorium".  I will be putting an "Antioch Arms" section out there soon. 
 But so far all I have is the Cricket and the Plasma Grenade (HHG-12) <--- 
Bonus Points if you can tell me what HHG means :-)
</Shameless Plug>

 ---------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:48:12 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Subject: Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2

Douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:

> Let's have turret buy back days!  Trade missiles for mittens!  Lasers
> for liberty!  Plasma Guns for *hey - where did you get THAT!*

Bought it off a merchant who said the 'pirate menace' was over.

> The heck with bothering with ship registration, if they have a turret,
> pull 'em over!  Hell, if they have a turret, they're probably guilty,
> blast 'em!!

This works perfectly well as a guiding principle if it's a PC ship, 
IME.

> And while we are at it, 1 G is good enough for civilian ships.  Anything
> more and you are probably plotting on overtaking someone.  SLOW DOWN
> those hopped up ships!

It's not the 3G acceleration, it's the vector the ship's building... 
but if it's not on a direct approach for the starport or other 
sensible destination, damned right.  And come in at high v if you 
want to find out how well armed the local military are.

> Let's institute mandatory downloading of your ship's log when you jump
> into a system.

In my Traveller universe, this happens routinely in major systems.  
Dump your flight plan or accept System Control's route (which will 
invariably lose you priority).

>  This way, no smuggling, swearing, or gambling can occur
> while in Jump Space.  Properly instituted, the logs will be a record of
> everything that occurs on the ship (interfaced with the now-obsolete
> Anti-Hijack program, there will be a fairly complete record of
> everything that occurs on the ship, as well as complete IDs on the crew
> and passengers.)  These logs won't fill up much of the infinite memory
> mandated for Navy ships (the complete Imperial ship's registration, crew
> qualification, and hot sheet), and hell, sailors are bored because they
> don't have lives (being permanently stationed over some podunk
> spaceport, on never-ending anti-piracy patrols that are for show anyway
> - - there are no pirates left) - they can go over them to be sure
> everything is on the up and up.

If we weren't going so heavily for irony here, it could be pointed 
out that a ship's _operational_ records (sensor logs, comm logs) 
might be required, the ship's manifest would be required (crew, 
passengers, cargo) but personal and medical logs would be absolutely 
confidential.

One of the reasons Europeans put up with bureaucracy is because 
despite all its manifest stupidities it is considerably better than 
major armed conflicts.  It is boring, restrictive and safe.  I for 
one am happier to be caught on security cameras than by muggers.  The 
Vilani-influenced Third Imperium would s(h)urely prefer 
over-controlled space travel to the cost of being pirated.

And it's cheaper than an SDB to run, probably ;-)

> Actually tho, when you think about all those Patrol Cruisers and SDBs
> that are built and put into service for a/piracy work, and all the crews
> that man them - it makes more sense to just skip building the ships and
> put a Naval representative on each ship that is released into commercial
> service.  This permanently installed representative of the Empire can
> ensure that the ship is only used for legal purposes; that the captain
> always pays his ship's payment; that the engineer never swears; and that
> the steward always helps little old ladies across the street.

Actually I think the SDBs are cheaper.  Wonder how many covert INI 
agents work as starship crew?

"I caught him sniffing around in the cargo hold, Captain Shigu."
"What is the meaning of this, Anderson?"
"I'm an INI operative, Captain.  It's my jo... hey, where are you 
 taking me?"
"Put him in the brig with the other seven.  They can't *all* be INI 
 agents... can they?"

Hmmmm.  I *like* this idea.  Thanks, Douglas.

Nick

(immune to irony from long exposure)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:45 +0100
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: Pirates exist because...

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Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.

If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens =
for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no =
piracy problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available =
and deployed means that there is a threat that needs a solution.=20

If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions =
would be used by much needed other government programs.=20

Look at Terran police forces. They exist because there is crime. If =
there was no crime, they would not exist.=20
It follows that because pilice exist, one can safely assume that crime =
also exists.

The only question that remains is the nature, composition and tactics of =
the these pirates.

/Justin Durkan
=20


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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Pirates exist because =
piracy=20
suppression exists.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>If there were no =
pirates there would=20
be no support within the givernmens for budget allocations to piracy=20
suppression, ie. there would be no piracy problem to solve. The fact =
that piracy=20
suppression is available and deployed means that there is a threat that =
needs a=20
solution. </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>If there were no =
pirates, the funding=20
of piracy suppression missions would be used by much needed other =
government=20
programs. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Look at Terran police forces. They =
exist because=20
there is crime. If there was no crime, they would not exist. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It follows that because pilice exist, =
one can=20
safely assume that crime also exists.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The only question that remains is the =
nature,=20
composition and tactics of the these pirates.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>/Justin Durkan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:44:09 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Jumpspace Dementia

My own take on this was that jumpspace wasn't going to drive you mad, but
was merely unnerving and unpleasant to look at.  Stare at it for too long
and you start getting headaches....sorta like my old monitor *g*

Of course, it may be that jumpspace contains images of Great Cthulhu's
hindquarters...that'd send one round the bend *g*

Seeya


Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 10:10:48 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Technical Qs...

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
> > From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com> asked:
> > What equipment is required to enter and maintain Jump Space?

To enger jumpspace, you need a jump drive, a hull grid of the appropriate
volume, a power plant, and a lot of liquid hydrogen.

To maintain jumpspace, nothing.  You stay in jumpspace for about a week.
BUT, without additional equipment, the fragile bubble of reality that contains
the ship will soon collapse, and reduce the ship to component quarks (which
will then stay in jumpspace for the rest of the week, and probably emerge
evenly distributed over a 36-parsec sphere - kind of hard to put back together).

To survive in jumpspace, you need a jump drive, a hull grid of the
appropriate volume, and a power plant.  Without the continous operation of
the jump drive (which energizes the hull grid and maintains the "jump
bubble" around the ship), you die in a catastrophic misjump.

> So, either (a) there is something you can turn off to drop out of J-space,
> but it inevitably destroys the ship (a la a catastrophic misjump)

I lean towards option (a).  It means that you can't monkey with the power or
the jump drive during jump (which is good), and it means that there's
something for the engineering staff to do (other than maintenance).

IMHO, the engineering staff watches over the jump drive and power plant (so
that they operate smoothly and continously for a week) while in jump space.
They can use this time to perform maintenance on the maneuver drives,
weapons, and just about any other interior system except for life support.

When the ship is in normal space, they can maintain the jump drive.  When
the ship is docked and hooked up to starport power and life-support, then
they can work on the life-support and power plant systems.

Unlike certain other members of the crew (like the navigator and pilot, who
basically have the week off during jump), the engineering staff has something
to do all the time.

> > The reason I am asking is I'd like to know what equipment is vital
> > during the move through jumpspace.  What could be turned off for repair
> > during the week-long jump?
> 
> (Again, in my view...) All J-drives are designed so that the jump-entry
> mechanisms can be powered down separately for in-jump maintenance

It's pretty well-established that you need a significant amount of time
(preferably several days to a week) to do maintainance and recalibration of
the jump drive after you exit jump before you can jump again.  Even jumping
'immediately' means taking an hour or so for the most basic cross-checks.

I'd suggest this indicates that the jump drive and power plant can't be
taken offline for maintenance while in jumpspace.

> Also, since J-bubble distortion is slow, hot-shot engineers have been
> known to take the maintenance system off-line during jump, working on
> it for a few hours then bringing it back up before the bubble can drift
> too far.

Not and live to collect their retirement benefits, they don't.  This would
be a dire-emergency do-it-or-we-all-die sort of thing.  Getting any
significant work done before the field collapses, and then getting the
J-drive back online and synched up with the field would be quite
challenging.  IMHO, the jump-bubble distortion happens faster than 'hours'.

This is the sort of thing you spring on the PCs _after_ they've just had an
FGMP fight in the engineering spaces while in jump, and a few stray shots
have hit the drive.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:50:52 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS v0.95

Two Short Planks Software is happy to announce the release of TRTOOLS v0.95.

New AND Improved!!!

New features include:

*	Sector generation
*	Provision for customised allegiance codes in maps
*	Route mapping in subsectors

As usual, the TRTOOLS ZIP file contains explanatory notes and full Turbo
Pascal 6.0 source code.
The software is DOS based (command line driven), and should run in any half
decent DOS emulation, as well as Win 3.x/Win95.

No cost, all I ask is that you give me opinions, suggestions and bug reports.

Point your browser to:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/software.html

And download the 225K ZIP file.

ENJOY!!


P.S. Existing users (both of you), I need comments on how useful this thing
actually is, as well as reports on how well it runs on platforms other than
DOS/Win.



Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:02 +0100 (BST)
From: David John Yeardly <djy@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1999

Hi All,
	ON the argument of persuit in to international waters.  If my
memory serves me corectly, and as I am not a lawyer, if a vesel is been
persued and flees in to international waters then it can still be persued
and if necessary sunk if it refuses to stop.  The law about this was
established in the 1920's after the americans sunk a canadian flaged rum
runner during prohibition.

	About piracy it is a crime that is under the duristriction of "any
interested warship captain", and as admiriality law is mainly
international law there arn't the problems that you imagine.

	This is remembered from maritime law clases when i was in the
services (RN).

Regards

Dave y 

..--.  ..---  -...- .-  -.. ..---  ---..  -...-  .-.-.
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:06:18 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: The Solomani Rim in Marc Miller's Traveller

G'day again,

The past few weeks I've been toying with the idea of writing up the
Solomani Rim in Millieu:0, for publishing either electronically or on
paper.  I'm currently working on the 'broad outline' of the concept, and
will be shortly be putting what I've got into a document so I can begin
fleshing it out and (most importantly) making the finished product as
consistent with Previously Published Material as possible.

If anyone is interested in coming on board, either to give me a hand with
idea development, research and check material, or simply to offer advice,
comments and criticism (constructive, of course *g*), drop me a line at
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

Da Svedanya,


Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:08:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

At 01:52 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:35 PM 10/22/97 +0100, Anders wrote:
>
>>It's just people having read too much Niven.
>
>It is impossible to read too much Niven.

Having sufferred through Ringword Throne, I must respectufully disagree.
That book was way, way too much Niven.  On the other hand, I still reread
Neutron Star regularly, and I try to model my Imperium, ever so slightly,
on a linear combination of the Piper Federation/Empire, and the
Niven/Pournelle Empire.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:09:37 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistol (FF&S2 Recoil)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
> Bill Prankard wrote:
> >The "Noisy Cricket" TL-12 Personal Plasma Pistol
> >Recoil: 25(?!?)
> 
> Seriously, though, the recoil is scary.

Yes.  When punching the numbers for real-world weapons, the biggest recoil
numbers are up in the 4-5 range.  FF&S2 recoil numbers are 'meaningless
indications of weapon recoil' (ie: there aren't currently any rules for
using them), but the scale is approximately linear and useful for
comparison.

From my own work, recoil numbers approximately correspond to:
Recoil 0 and 1 = Light recoil.  Controllable by just about anyone who can
  hold the weapon.
  Recoil 0: very light or no recoil at all.
  Recoil 1: light recoil, easilyy controlled.
Recoil 2 = Average.  Controllable by almost anyone, but beings with small
  or weak hands or lower upper-body strength may need practice or special
  weapon holding techniques.
  Recoil 2: About average.  Real-life Colt .45 automatic is in this category.
Recoil 3 and 4 = Heavy recoil.  Large or strong hands and upper body
  mass and strength helpful.
  Recoli 3: Heavy.  Still possible for most people.
  Recoil 4: Very Heavy.  Heaviest recoil for real-life production handguns.
Recoil 5 and beyond = Extreme.  Custom weapons may have been produced in
  real-life at this recoil, but would probably be uncomfortable for most
  shooters.

But I'd suggest that anything with a '25' would probably break your arm
and dislocate your shoulder when firing it (the only plasma pistol I ever
allowed in my own Traveller campaign did that, too).

You should be able to reduce the recoil by increasing the mass of the
weapon, but by the time you got it reasonable, you'd probably have a rifle,
not a pistol.

> What all this does is beg the question of what exactly the recoil
> numbers in FF&S mean.

They're dimensionless numbers that try to express the recoil force felt by
the firer.  The primary factors that determine it are the muzzle energy (the
higher the energy, the more recoil), the relationship of muzzle energy to
weapon mass, and the efficency of the recoil-compensation.  The scale isn't
linear (if anything '25' means _more_ than 5 times the force of '5'), but
bigger numbers mean more recoil.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:

<< 
 On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
 released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?  >>


Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:05:45 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

Justin Durkan wrote:
>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
>
>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens
for >budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no piracy
problem >to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available and
deployed means that >there is a threat that needs a solution.=20
>
>If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions would
be >used by much needed other government programs.=20
>
>Look at Terran police forces. They exist because there is crime. If there
was >no crime, they would not exist.=20
>It follows that because pilice exist, one can safely assume that crime also
>exists.
>
>The only question that remains is the nature, composition and tactics of
the >these pirates.

If piracy would cease to exist, the Imperium would no longer need to waste
it's resources on protecting itself from piracy. After a while, someone
would reinvent piracy, since there was no-one to stop it. Thus, the Imperium
would restart it's efforts. The pirates would constantly be hunted down, but
there would always be new replacements, hungry for the easy credits.

This is the explanation I prefer to why piracy exists (other than the fact
that it makes for great plots).

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)

"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:59 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jspace

>Now set the fun aside, I think of Jumpspace as a threedimensional visual
>disturbance. (Imagine staring on a television set between two channels
>for an hour or so, and you get a feeling of Jump Sickness.)


Of course, you would have to stare at jumpspace for an hour or so to get
the same effect! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:33:23 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

Justin Durkan wrote:
> 
> Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.

I don't think anyone disputes the existance of pirates, the dispute is
over the nature of pirates.

> The only question that remains is the nature, composition and tactics
> of the these pirates.

Yep. That's been the gist of the discussion. On one side, those that
advocate that small, independant pirates (sometimes part time merchies)
with no governmental or corporate support exist; and on the other are
those that contend that the only pirates out there are larger pirates
sponsored by external governments or corporations.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2000
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2001



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Why use CORPS?
Re: Fleet deployment
Re: Jump Space technical Qs...
Re: "Noisy Cricket" Plasma Pistol
Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Pirates exist because...
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Re; insurance, etc.
Alien Oppression
Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2000
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:57 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>Given that the laws of physics out side the jump bubble are *different*
>and may involve extra dimensions, it's possible that you could see
>things that your "model" can't accomodate.


Hmm. Except that you will only be able to see what your senses will let
you. Since your visual sense is limited to 3d, it will only see stimuli in
3d. You'd have to design 4d glasses that would translate stimuli to 3d to
actually see any 4d phenomena -- and then you'd only see it in 3d.


>(1) while I haven't played with it enough to say for certain, I am told
>by semi-reliable sources that *some* people can learn to "visualize" in
>4 dimensions. After playing with the 4d program for a while, they can
>confidently *tell* you what will happen if you make various moves.


Hmm. But are they accurate? I know a lot of people who will confidently
tell me about things are are not! :-)

Still, about visulaizing 4d. In the past, when I was doing a lot of reading
on cosmology, I felt like I became pretty capable with visualizing 4d.
Maybe it's the artist in me, but what you do is visualize x, perpendicular
to y, perpendicular to z -- and then imagine another dimension
perpendicular to all of those. It's squishy, but it seems like it can be
done, at least in my experience. Of course, this may all be imagination --
I never had access to 4d modeling programs like you are referring to, so I
never tested my accuracy (Arrgh! Where was this topic idea when I was in
Research Methods! :-)

In any event, visualizing a concept and perceiving stimuli are two
different issues. Your senses are limited to 3d in the real world.

Actually, if time is considered a 4th dimension (since it is a way of
measuring things, like the other three), then most humans can visualize in
4d. :) It's hyperspace (5d and above) that's the real pain.

Of course, and then there are psionics ... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:21:01 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>(1)  What's wrong with quasi-Lovecraftian psychodynamic mystical ideas? ...


Nothing at all. I like to use them in my fantasy/horror settings. They just
seem out of line in quasi-hard sf settings. ;-)


>
>(2)   Towards a hard science explanation ... <snipped description>


>So what may happen when this unidentified radiation from jump space
>stimulates the photoreceptors?  It may cause the nerves in the optic
>nerve system to send signals to the nerves in the brain that cause those
>nerves to produce or activate inappropriate neurotransmitters, leading
>to all sorts of problems (at the referee's discretion, I suppose).


Well, assuming the radiation triggers the photoreceptors you would just see
visible light of some sort. The problem here is not the type of stimuli,
but the fact that the sense receptors react in a specific way. It doesn't
matter what the stimuli is -- if it causes your photoreceptors to fire, you
will experience it as light of a visible wavelength.


<examples of physiological mental disorders severed>


But there is no reason to believe that visual stimuli would cause these
effects in a normal person. Now, if looking at certain light or color
patterns made you dysfunctional, then jumpspace might as well -- but they
don't seem to (okay, there is TV, I'll give you that :-).

Simply *seeing* jumpspace would have no worse of an effect than seeing
anything else. It may look funky or weird, but there is no reason to
believe that it would cause mental breakdown any more than any other sight
would.

Things-that-man-wan-not-meant-to-know aside, jumpspace would most likely
just look like noise (random lights and colors) or nothing at all.

Note that I am *not* advocating an abolishion of jump sickness, or even
psionic handwaves about how jspace might effect the mind. I'm just the
ranting that the "seeing-it-makes-you-crazy" idea makes little scientific
sense. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:35:33 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Why use CORPS?

At 02:46 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 12:44 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>CORPS sounds pretty interesting, but one important question.  Is point based
>>chargen the _only_ form of chargen?
....

>Point-based is the only way to go, but there's nothing to say that you
>can't have unbalanced characters.

Gotta disagree on the point based systems being the only way to go.  They
are good if you have a concept in mind, but they are a pain if you just
need an NPC reasonably fast, or a character who might get fleshed out.
When creating one of these walk-ons, I have _no_ preconceived character
concept, and I like seeing what the dice will give me.  Many of these go
into the file, until I need a character, and someone piques my interest.
Having such a file makes it a lot easier to stop the "has a name -> must be
important" problem.

On the other hand, point systems can be very handy if you are in an
environment where balance is an issue.  I would never run a game with high
school students again without using one, or in a situation where there are
egos involved.  Relatives, or games that have relatives involved can
benefit from points, so people cannot accuse you of favoritism.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:54:29 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fleet deployment

Hans Rancke-Madison wrote;
>Continuing the thread about how the Imperial Navy would be deployed, here
>are some calculations I've made about the IN:
>
>
>AN ANALYSIS OF THE IMPERIAL NAVY IN THE CLASSIC ERA
>===================================================
>
>Main sources: _Fighting Ships_, _Spinward Marches Campaign_ and _Rebellion_.
[snip impressive marshalling of facts and guesses]

>And in the end, even with the best will in the world it appears that the
>Imperial navy is only about half the size that it should be (Cr150 would be
>1.5% of the GNP and we were calculating with 3%).
[snip]
>I'd like to finish off by re-emphasizing that all those ships, the 20,000
>combat vessels, the 20,000 big escorts and the unspecified number of lesser
>ships only represent 15% of the Cr150. Another 15% goes to the subsector
>fleets and the remaining 70% goes to planetary defenses, though admittedly
>6-40% of that (4.2-28% of the total) would go to armies.

You seem to be assuming that the cost of the navy is equal to the cost of
its ships.  This is rather simplistic, but there may be a reason for it.

In case there is not; Remember that one of the single larges expenses the
Imperial Navy will have is salaries and fringe benefits.  This expense will
be big enough to rival the Capital Shipbuilding budget.

In addition there are the following budget categories to consider;
Shipyard maintainence and expense
Naval Intelligence
Research and Development (a biggie!)
Logistics
etc.

Let me know if you've already accounted for these things.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:30:38 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Space technical Qs...

At 04:15 PM 10/22/97 -0500, "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com> wrote:
>I am sitting still, I prepare and enter jumpspace.  Now, does the jump drive
>need to remain functional during the entire jump?  Or is it only used to get
>you into jumpspace and once there, the whole ship could turn off power,
>including the jump drive?  IOW, it makes the jump-tunnel and then you
>enter it and that is all there is to it...

RealCanon: the jump drive does all of its magic just before, during, and
after the jump space entry.  Once you are in jumpspace, go ahead and shut
everything down.

ScottCanon:  Jumpspace is inimical to our spacetime.  The drive field is
created and maintained by the drive.  In order to do that, it slowly goes
through the fuel in the fuel tanks, some for power, but most as a sacrifice
to the gods of jumpspace.  For the technically minded, the hydrogen is
sprayed out as a cloud of ions, which react with the boundary.  The energy
released by this reaction can go to either side, and that which goes to the
other side of the boundary expands it.  That which is released to this side
is rather dangerous, and a well tuned jump drive manages the jump field
such that the there is virtually no radiation, while a jump drive going
sour will have flashes, sparks, and other cool visual effects.

Note: a universe is almost impossible to stabilize at a fixed size - doing
so requires some very interesting gravitational tricks, which the 3I does
not really know.  Doing so is hard enough that creating a stable pocket
universe completely disconnected from any other, and with a fixed size
requires a lot of technology.  Pinched off universes are still connected to
this one, and only must be prevented from popping back through to the
parent, which is a bit easier.

This is relevant, because the whole "dump stuff in jumpspace to keep the
bubble away" thing is a way of preventing your small universe inside
jumpspace from collapsing in on you.

If you understand jumpspace well enough, you can build permanent structures
in it, or do a jump with no fuel at all.  Both of these are well beyond the
understanding of the Imperium, and, in general, are not terribly useful, as
once interstellar teleportation becomes available, the transit time in jump
space is tedious.

In addition, jump space contains a virtually infinite amount of energy, by
the standard of a universe such as ours, so at some point, energy suckers
that just tap raw JS energy become feasible.  Psionic races tend to figure
this out first, as this is the power source for Psionics which cannot be
explained as sensors.

...
>The reason I am asking is I'd like to know what equipment is vital during
>the move through jumpspace.  What could be turned off for repair during
>the week-long jump?

By my rules, a partial failure of the drive, the power plant that is part
of the drive, or the jump grid are all disasters, but which can be
recovered from.  In regular traveller, no jump drive failure is a problem
if it happens after JS entry.

>  What could randomly 'fail' that would keep them in jump?

Any weird happening with the jump drive can have the standard misjump
problems.  Most of them result in death, unless it almost worked right.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:02:53 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: "Noisy Cricket" Plasma Pistol

At 12:41 AM 10/23/97 +0200, you wrote:
>[description of handgun for suicides snipped]
>
>>OOC:  Gawds!  I never thought the recoil on this thing would be so high. 
>> This is truly a  "Noisy Cricket"! :-)  I would think a Formidable or 
>>Staggering roll of STR would be necessary to avoid injury when firing this 
>>weapon.
>
>You are clearly designing weapons using some kind of rules system ... from
>what book?
>
>Are there systems for designing other things as well (my players have weird
>ideas) ? Missiles, ship cannons etc. ...

Fire, Fusion & Steel 2.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:58:55 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

At 12:42 AM 10/23/97 +0200, Jens wrote:

>>>It's just people having read too much Niven.
>>
>>It is impossible to read too much Niven.

>Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
>
>Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...

Larry Niven is one of the greatest SF writers ever to walk the Earth.  Run,
do not walk, to your bookstore and pick up the following:

Neutron Star
Protector
Tales of Known Space
Lucifer's Hammer (w/ Jerry Pournelle)
A World Out of Time (My all-time favorite novel)
N-space
Playgrounds of the Mind

(these two are anniversary collections.. highly recommended)

Dream Park
<can't remember>
California Voodoo Game

(these three books are Niven's look at the future of role-playing games!)

Legacy of Heorot
Beowulf's Children
Destiny's Road

(a new series, set on newly colonized worlds.. great for Traveller Refs..)

I know Craig is going to point out the ones I missed, but this will be a
good start.



- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:47:33 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

At 12:20 AM 10/23/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>It has been shown that certain sights can have a direct influence on the
>>mind, and the disturbing aspects of j-space is just an aspect of that.
>>Personally I see the j-space effect as being similar to a bad LSD trip..
>>There's nothing really there to look at, so your mind begins putting things
>>in for you...
>
>Does this mean that you would see strange moving THINGS just outside your
>field of vision, half-visible staring faces in the murky darkness etc. ?

From personal experience.. I had to spend a week in intensive care about
two years ago.  I was completely immobilized, and unable to move anything.
I also was on morphine, and you cannot sleep for more than five minutes in
an ICU.

After three days, I was hallucinating constantly.  My perspective would
change wildly, I'd see and hear things that weren't there, and finally, I
sat up and pulled my own IV out because I was certain I was back at Ft.
Benning and had to out on patrol.

IMHO, staring at jumpspace will do that to you in a few minutes.  Close the
shutters.

>I imagine there must be tales told among starship crew ... stories about
>horrible monsters dwelling in jumpspace, and at very rare times attacking
>ships through some defect in the protective bubble.
>
>Modern science denies all such rumours as paranoid fantasies, of course ... 

The rumor I contributed for M:0 was about a ship disappearing in jump, and
ships in jumps receiving messages from it.....  <cue Twilight Zone theme..>
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:23:41 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

On 23 Oct 97 at 11:56, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:
> 
> << 
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> 
>   >>
> 
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

That silly Marc.  Doesn't he understand the concept of "Do what we want, not what the 
customer wants???" :)

 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:38:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

Larry Niven, author of a vast body of work, set in several fictional
universes, one of which , the Known Space series, is clearly a major
inspiration for much of Traveller. Run, do not, walk, but Run to your
nearest decent library and check out his many books and read them. Do it
now! don't turn off your computer, I'll watch it for you GO! GO! ;-)

<shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

> >>It's just people having read too much Niven.
> >
> >It is impossible to read too much Niven.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
> 
> Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:56:45 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists. ...

Hmm. The argument could be made that piracy suppression exists because the
*threat* of piracy exists.

Still, I think your point is valid. I look at as a dynamic system. Piracy
exists. Piracy supression is developed, and piracy goes away. With piracy
gone, the supression gradually lessens (since human reaction to
non-negative steady states is normally complacency). When supression
reaches a point where it is ineffective, piracy once again rears its ugly
head. To quote a shampoo bottle, "Repeat process."

Throw in a war or two, an Imperium-wide rebellion, and the occasional
intelligent but pissed-off Virus, and you have plenty of opportunities for
piracy.

In a stable, healthy Imperium, there probably is no piracy. The stable,
healthy Imperium is not eternal, however. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:50:18 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> 
>   >>
> 
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
> 
> Marc

And we thank you, Marc!

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:49:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re; insurance, etc.

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >The latter might well be the big ticket...some completion bonds can be
> >extremely punitive.
> 
>   Wouldn't the carrier/shipping company still be hosed from the moment
> when the ship is "rerouted"? The cargo will be late, and you may not 
> know for some time whether you'll ever see it again. As indicated by
> others, the potential value of the ship renders hanging around a bit
> too poor a cost-benefit option. 
> 
>   Again, as a possible scam, some scenarios emerge :)

Yes they'e be hosed, but most completion bonds I've seen include daily
penalties for non-compliance...if you're late, it's $10,000 / day. You
would _much_ rather be late a day or two, than late a week or two...

With interstellar shipping I doubt the time period would usually be
shorter than a week, but depending on the cargo it might be different.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:36:51 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Alien Oppression

Taskmaster.  Slave Driver.  Oppressor of the Working Masses...

I'm glad to hear this!


CardSharks@aol.com (the Marc Miller person) wrote:

>> On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>> released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
  >
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen
> for the aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>
> Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:04:29 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2)

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

[snip]

> Douglas, if you know how a 3G merchant ship can compete with a 1G ship of
> the same jump rating, feel free to enlighten the rest of us.

Oh my god!  Hans we agree!!!

Merchants should be 1G.  I was speaking to all the _other_ nasty,
unproductive ships that PCs seem to land in (especially those vile scout
ships).  ;)

[snip]

> >These logs won't fill up much of the infinite memory mandated for Navy ships
> 
> Let's see. Assume one T of merchant shipping per 1000 citizens in the
> Imperium. That would be 15,000,000,000 T. Assume an average size of 400 T
> for merchants. That would be 37,500,000. Assume an entry size of 10K for
> a ship registration file. That would be 375,000 M, or 750 times more than
> my PC can handle. Yeah, I guess a TL 15 computer would be unable to handle
> that (See, I can babble with the best).

OK.  Now that we have established a base of _merchant_ ships, let's
wildly fling some other numbers around:

You are, I assume from the numbers above, postulating a Imperial
population of some 15 Trillion?  Now, assuming that 50% of the citizenry
fail to enter the career path of their choice, that would leave 7.5
Trillion available (at some point in thier lifetime) to the draft.  Of
those, 1/6th or 16.67 percent will enter the Scouts (involuntarily). 
Let's round the total number up to 18% to account for those poor,
deluded fools that volunteer to be a scout.  That gives up 1.35 Trillion
Scouts running around space.  Drop 75% for those, who for one reason or
another do not retire as scouts, and that still gives you 337.5 Billion
retirees, approximately 1/6th of whom will recieve a Scout ship in
gratitude to loyal service.  That gives us 56,261,200,000 Type S scouts
that need to be added to that registration file - 10K per file, right? 
So, that pumps the registration data base up another 560 Terabytes of
data for the file.  This, I might add, is just for Type S ships being
retired from active service...do we want to track the active scouts?

Now, most ships over 200 tons have auxiliary craft.  These also need to
be tracked (otherwise how could we determine which craft come from out
of system, as was pointed out to me in an earlier post).  Let's assume
only 1 aux. craft per ship (rounds out the numbers for those who have
more, and those who have none) which will give us another 37,500,000. 
Then, these are also the craft that link the various worlds, moons, and
orbital platforms.  Let us just suppose there are 1 craft per 1,000
citizens (government, corporate and private) - that gives us another
15,000,000,000 and a total of 52.5 Billion.  At 10K per entry - another
520 Terabytes of data!

I would add all the various Lab Ships, Couriers, Type J (seekers), but
they would just be more numbers.  If we are adding military ships
(necessary I think, how else to verify that they are legitamate) it
would add considerably to the database, but since I currently disagree
with the numbers being used, I won't add them in.  I think it would be
safe to say, however, that it would easily double, and perhaps triple
the size of the registry.

However, I believe that this registry has also been postulated to
contain the Captain and Crew information as well (rubbing hands and
looking worriedly at calculator...will it be up to the task?  Is that
smoke?)

15 Trillion Imperial citizens, 50% of which select their own careers. 
16.67% go Navy (round up to 20% - there is a prestige in the Navy),
16.67% go merchant (round up to 20% - there is money in business), and
18% go scout.  This is 4.35 Trillion citizens who get thier ticket as
Pilot, Engineer, Astrogator or Gunner.  I'll be kind and only round up
to 5 Trillion for those who get one of these skills in another manner,
and for those Medics who get ship certified.  That is another 50,000
Terabytes for the registry.

So, assuming the database only has data for civilian ships, we are
looking at 1,080.375 Terabytes of data for the defined ships. 
(Conservatively, I would double that for the undefined ships), and
another 50,000 Terabytes for crew.  (I sure as hell wouldn't want to be
an Imperial DBA)  Do we include interface shipping (ships from out of
the Empire?)

Now, updates.  If we assume that .1% of the data is being updated or
changed at any given time (and I think we will all agree that this is a
_very_ small % of change), that is 51 terabytes of data on the wire
(more specifically, in the X-boat) at any given time.  I don't remember
what the amount of data a given X-boat can carry, but I believe it was
in the terabyte range.  Just the add/remove/change information for this
database will consume a significant amount of the space available for
data.

(The calculator is begging for mercy - the solar power cell is smoking. 
I must stop now!  :)

> 
> > [babbling quietly in his corner of the interworld]
> 
> Douglas? Douglas? Are you there? <SLAP!> Dammit, Douglas, get a grip!
> 
> There! Are you feeling better now?

I can always count on ya, Hans!  :)

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 97 15:18:47 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2000

#2000? really? wow, I feel like I'm at the beginning of a new millenia...

<and now back to your regularly scheduled griping...>

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:19:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

Greetings,

I went over the recoil calculations and they are correct.  I saw that the 
equation for slug throwers was much less 0.15 v. 150.  But then i saw the 
small print.  For slug throwers this factor is multiplied by the Muzzle 
energy in Joules.  High energy weapons are calculated with MEGAjoules!  As a 
matter of fact when I converted the energy of the "Cricket" to joules and 
plugged it into the slug thrower recoil equation, it worked to the same 
number.

There is quite an order of magnitude between slug throwers and High Energy 
weapons, maybe we should produce Laser weapons, hardly any recoil with 
those...NAW! :-)

I see now that high energy weapons are brutish, "forged in the bowels of 
Hades" (or X-TEK R&D), infernal weapons of death and mass destruction and 
are not to be trifled with.

Mind you, at higher techs, Fusion Pistols are very possible, and the recoil, 
albeit very high (7 IIRC) it is tolerable.  Draconis Cluster website has 
such a pistol at TL-16.  Ah the marvels of Gravatic Compensation! :)

And now for a quote:

>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:09:37 -0400
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: Plasma Pistol (FF&S2 Recoil)

>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
>> Bill Prankard wrote:
>> >The "Noisy Cricket" TL-12 Personal Plasma Pistol
>> >Recoil: 25(?!?)
>>
>> Seriously, though, the recoil is scary.

I Agree, it's almost cartoonish!

>Yes.  When punching the numbers for real-world weapons, the biggest recoil
>numbers are up in the 4-5 range.  FF&S2 recoil numbers are 'meaningless
>indications of weapon recoil' (ie: there aren't currently any rules for
>using them), but the scale is approximately linear and useful for
>comparison.

<Wildstars recoil system vaped by "Noisy Cricket"....but you should see the 
other guy! <G>>

>But I'd suggest that anything with a '25' would probably break your arm
>and dislocate your shoulder when firing it (the only plasma pistol I ever
>allowed in my own Traveller campaign did that, too).

Agreed.

>You should be able to reduce the recoil by increasing the mass of the
>weapon, but by the time you got it reasonable, you'd probably have a rifle,
>not a pistol.

I tried adding more ammo, but recoil is still gawddawfuly huge.  Anything 
bigger would be a rifle true.  Which leads to a question I had.  How do you 
find out how wide and how long the barrel of the thing is?

>> What all this does is beg the question of what exactly the recoil
>> numbers in FF&S mean.

>They're dimensionless numbers that try to express the recoil force felt by
>the firer.  The primary factors that determine it are the muzzle energy 
(the
>higher the energy, the more recoil), the relationship of muzzle energy to
>weapon mass, and the efficency of the recoil-compensation.  The scale isn't
>linear (if anything '25' means _more_ than 5 times the force of '5'), but
>bigger numbers mean more recoil.

IIRC this is a throwback from TNE days when the combat rules use a recoil 
factor to see how many shots could be fired in a turn before the weapon 
became uncontrollable.  IIRC it was based on STR.  The total number of shots 
fired in a turn were added up and if the total was greater than strength, 
the difference was used as a negative DM to hit.

Mind you there were no rules for excessive recoil, prolly cuz back then 
there were no insane designers like the Commander and Hegebar Spofulam! (TEE 
HEE!)

I would say if a weapon has a single shot recoil of over x2 your strength, a 
formidable roll v. Endurance should be made to avoid injury(take remaining 
recoil points subtracted from STR and distribute evenly over STR DEX and 
END).  At 3x and over its Staggering, at 4x and over Imposible.  The damage 
is the same Recoil-STR so at higher levels it is potentially fatal. If the 
END roll is successful, then only 1/2 damage is inflicted. You WILL get hurt 
firing the "Cricket"!
 --------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2001
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2002



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Pirates exist because...
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Spies
Re: Piracy
Jumpspace Dementia
Who is Niven?
Ship's Registration and Crew Certifications
Re: Humour?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1997
JOSEPH! Starship Design System!!!
U R a generous alien
Re: Who is Niven?
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:19:45 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

At 11:56 AM 10/23/97 -0400, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:
><< 
> On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
> released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>
>Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

Ooooo, that _evil_ Marc.

Good idea, and I am glad to see you taking such a personal hand in these
products - it improves them and the whole IG line.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:25:19 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 12:42 AM 10/23/97 +0200, Jens wrote:
> 
> >>>It's just people having read too much Niven.
> >>
> >>It is impossible to read too much Niven.
> 
> >Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
> >
> >Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...
> 
> Larry Niven is one of the greatest SF writers ever to walk the Earth.  Run,
> do not walk, to your bookstore and pick up the following:
> 

In addition, get Ringworld and the Ringworld Engineers. You MAY
want to get Ringworld Throne. Also get All the Myriad Ways and
Convergent Series.

You haven't lived until you've read "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex",
an essay describing exactly why Superman can't have kids.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:16:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>Larry Niven, author of a vast body of work, set in several fictional
>universes, one of which , the Known Space series, is clearly a major
>inspiration for much of Traveller. Run, do not, walk, but Run to your
>nearest decent library and check out his many books and read them. Do it
>now! don't turn off your computer, I'll watch it for you GO! GO! ;-)
>
><shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"

By the way ...

OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)

Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?

I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litterature :-)

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:52:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:45 +0100, "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
>If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions =
>would be used by much needed other government programs.=20
>
>Look at Terran police forces. They exist because there is crime. If =
>there was no crime, they would not exist.=20
>It follows that because pilice exist, one can safely assume that crime =
>also exists.

This one point I've tired to make.  Crimes are very seldom
"wiped out".  What happens is that resources are committed to
a point where the resources required to further reduction
are balanced by the costs of the exsiting level of crime.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:11:45 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> 
>   >>
> 
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
> 
> Marc

No Problem Marc!  You just go ahead and get in the way all you want.

We want to see quality, not a rushed out, broken product.

I'm behind you 100%.  You'll here no bitching about products being late
because you are trying to get them right from this poster.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:41:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Spies

>"I caught him sniffing around in the cargo hold, Captain Shigu."
>"What is the meaning of this, Anderson?"
>"I'm an INI operative, Captain.  It's my jo... hey, where are you 
> taking me?"
>"Put him in the brig with the other seven.  They can't *all* be INI 
> agents... can they?"

  Reminds me of the "Paranoia" idea of an Internal Security plan to
create a secret society to observe/catch traitors. Naturally, every
IS operative worth a damn finds out about it eventually and joins :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:41:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

Hello,
>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
>
>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens =
>for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no =
>piracy problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available =
>and deployed means that there is a threat that needs a solution.=20
>
>If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions =
>would be used by much needed other government programs.=20
>
>Look at Terran police forces. They exist because there is crime. If =
>there was no crime, they would not exist.=20
>It follows that because pilice exist, one can safely assume that crime =
>also exists.

  Perhaps more correctly, the existence of such forces indicates the
pre-conditions for what they work to suppress. If crime were not a
human behaviour option, then we wouldn't have police or crime. Or,
disease controls is why we _don't_ have smallpox.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:33:06 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Jumpspace Dementia

I just had a thought about this that might account for ...
interesting ... effects of all types in jumpspace:

Suppose that the interface between raw jumpspace and the
normalspace bubble that is around your ship has some unique
qualities that result in interactions that happen faster than
light, but do so on the "inside" of the jump bubble.

Suppose further that these interactions generate "radiation" (no
better description) that can affect human nerve tissue.

Suppose further that this pseudoradiation cannot penetrate
materials opaque to visible light, but have no problem going
through transparent materials.

When this pseudoradiation, which is moving faster than light in
an environment where this is theoretically prohibited, strikes
neural tissue, it sets up a "resonance" of some sort - it is the
effects of the resonance that cause jump insanity - and in fact,
all jump sickness.  A misjump induces severe jump sickness
because part of the interaction happened inside the ship, where
people would be affected.

Ramifications:=20

It is a nasty job to do EVA in jump - possible if you have an
opaque helmet with a repeater HUD in it, to mimic vision, or if
your view is of nothing but hull - no Jspace _at_all_, but still
not pleasant because of the closeness of the interface boundary.

It is not safe to be in a room with uncovered viewports.  Screens
showing what a port would show are OK, though.

It explains why people are affected differently by viewing
jumpspace and by jump sickness - the resonance is more or less
severe; in some rare cases, there is no effect at all - these are
the people who seem to be totally immune to jump sickness, and
who can look out a port while in jump with no ill effects.

It is not actually _seeing_ jumpspace that does it, but being
exposed to it as described - it's just that humans are visually-
oriented, and have assumed that, since it can happen on the
bridge of a ship with an open viewport, it must be from looking
at it.

The few people that are driven irrevocably mad by exposure to
Jspace are those where the Jspace/neural resonance is at a sort
of "natural harmonic" of the person's nervous system; the
resonance set up is self-reinforcing, and continues even after
the inducing agent (Jspace pseudoradiation) is removed.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Screams of agony?  (Screams of agony are
OK, flames are not.  Send the latter to /dev/null, please.)
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:12:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Who is Niven?

> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:42:48 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
> 
> >>It's just people having read too much Niven.
> >
> >It is impossible to read too much Niven.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
> 
> Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...

That's really amazing, for someone interested in science fiction,
especially "hard" science science fiction, not to have heard of Larry
Niven.  So go, run, don't walk, to the bookstore or library and read
some of his work.  He's both a very good writer, and a very imaginative
thinker.  I hope that you enjoy his writing as much as I (and everyone I
know in this context) have.  

..se means Sweden, right?  At least his major works are likely to have
been translated into Swedish, and your posts suggest that your English
is quite fluent.  You should be able to find him in either language at a
major bookstore.  

Look for these books:

Ringworld (his best-known novel)
The Ringworld Engineers (sequel)
Protector

There are a lot of others, but I can't remember any other titles.  You
might find a list on the web.

Happy reading!

- --Glenn Goffin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:34:53 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Ship's Registration and Crew Certifications

Since I loath people who criticize without offering solutions, allow me
to propose my alternative to the Imperium-wide ship registry.

I should point out that this is already partially instituted in my
campaign - partially only because I've never bothered to formalize it
before.

I have mentioned in an previous post that I route ship's paperwork and
payments to the capital of subsector where the ship is built.  From
there, the ship registry and qualified crew listing is published to all
A, B and C Starports in the subsector.  Also, copies of the sub-sector
listing are posted to the surrounding subsectors on a monthly basis, and
forwarded to the Sector Capital for archiving.

Note I mentioned the 'qualified crew' listing.  IMHO, all crewmembers in
'named' positions (Pilot, Astrogator, Engineer, Medic, Gunner) must have
certifications in order to legally fill the position (i.e. get paid for
it).  In addition, every ship must have a qualified pilot on board to
lift.

Ships on patrol duty have an abbrieviated version of the list, just a
transponder code, file number, ship class and tonnage and a warrant
flag.  If they run across a ship that they require more information on,
they need to contact the nearest Class A,B or C starport.  Capital Ships
(BBs and above) also have this information, as do Naval Bases.  (They
won't give it to the Scouts since it was discovered that they were
allowing retired scouts access to the database.)

Updates to the database flow from the reporting station to the SubSector
Capital 'owning' the record.  Each time a ship ports at one of these
starports, updates are sent.  Once a ship has crossed a subsector
border, the file 'ownership' will be transferred to the new subsector. 
During the change of ownership process, data will originally flow to the
old owner who will forward it to the new owner.  As the new owner
broadcasts it's file updates, data flow will transfer from the old to
the new owner.  During this process, the adjacent 3 subsectors will
begin receiving data on this ship, and the far 3 subsectors will receive
'remove' notices to reduce the size of the database.  On Day 1 each year
the Sector Capital archives the data and forwards a copy to Capital.

Crew lists are handled in roughly the same fashion.  It should be noted
that, with the exception of 'notable' people - most of a person's record
is kept on their Imperial ID and archived in the SubSector Capital. 
Losing your ID can result in a considerable waiting period while you
wait for a new ID to be issued.

Not everyone will have a Imperial ID.  It only need be issued when you
are first leaving your homeworld.  Thus, if you never leave (legally),
you may never get an ID.  The process to recieve one is fairly simple on
TL 7+ worlds, but the data has to be manually authenticated on TL 6-
worlds.  (These worlds are popular places to create new IDs)  Additions
and modifications to an Imperial ID must be authorized by a noble or a
designated subordinate.

Points of interest:
1) With the data flow converging on the SubSector and Sector capitals,
it is possible to incorporate changes to the database (assuming you can
get write access).  Failure to a forgery roll indicates that your record
will be flagged for investigation.  Spectacular Failure indicates that
built in security scans will immediately detect the change (race ya off
planet!)

2) Patrols on remote duty (Class D and E Starport systems) will only be
able to verify if the transponder is valid.  They can record
information, but it will not be crosschecked until they can get access
to a full database.  (Which is why pirates won't play in a system where
a Battleship is visiting, even if it is across the system)

3) I _do_ pull certifications from players (I pulled the Pilot-4's
ticket for buzzing the field - they had to hire a Pilot-1 to get
clearance to leave port!), they can be restored (after the fine is paid
and the probation is completed) by taking a test and paying cr100.  They
are good for 2 years.  Merchants must certify their ships annually to
carry cargo and/or passengers.


- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:35 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Humour?

Steven Hudson wrote:

[snip]

 
>   Hmm, I hate to say it, but this made for a really neat plot for one
> of Brian Daley's "Han Solo" novels - obtain (faked) authorizations to
> allow the Falcon to operate under the new performance envelope regs in
> the Corporate Sector. They figured that anyone with a fast ship, lotsa
> guns, a bit of cargo, and the sensors and firecon of a small warship
> might be tempted to do something illegal with it.

Good series, tho' kind of light compared with some of the Star Wars
novels coming out now.

> >while in Jump Space.  Properly instituted, the logs will be a record of
> >everything that occurs on the ship (interfaced with the now-obsolete
> >Anti-Hijack program, there will be a fairly complete record of
> >everything that occurs on the ship, as well as complete IDs on the crew
> >and passengers.)
> 
>   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
> most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
> functioning cameras in every corridor.

I've never read that one, but I did think Heinlien's "Friday" had good
treatment of the issue.  There were cameras, but you never knew for sure
if they were being monitored or not.  And there was a good story ('Oath
of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle) about an arcology and the
security issues there.  (Tho' the diving board on the roof to put off
would be suicides was a bit over the top...)

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:29:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1997

At 08
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:47:09 -0700
>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2
>
>You are RIGHT!  Because anti-piracy work is the function of the Navy,
>and they have destroyed it (so say the
>build-ships-til-you-can-walk-to-the-mooners) - the mere fact you would
>_want_ weapons on your ship indicates a nefarious purpose.
>
>Let's have turret buy back days!  Trade missiles for mittens!  Lasers
>for liberty!  Plasma Guns for *hey - where did you get THAT!*
>
>The heck with bothering with ship registration, if they have a turret,
>pull 'em over!  Hell, if they have a turret, they're probably guilty,
>blast 'em!!
>
>And while we are at it, 1 G is good enough for civilian ships.  Anything
>more and you are probably plotting on overtaking someone.  SLOW DOWN
>those hopped up ships!
>
>Let's institute mandatory downloading of your ship's log when you jump
>into a system.  This way, no smuggling, swearing, or gambling can occur
>while in Jump Space.  Properly instituted, the logs will be a record of
>everything that occurs on the ship (interfaced with the now-obsolete
>Anti-Hijack program, there will be a fairly complete record of
>everything that occurs on the ship, as well as complete IDs on the crew
>and passengers.)  These logs won't fill up much of the infinite memory
>mandated for Navy ships (the complete Imperial ship's registration, crew
>qualification, and hot sheet), and hell, sailors are bored because they
>don't have lives (being permanently stationed over some podunk
>spaceport, on never-ending anti-piracy patrols that are for show anyway
>- - there are no pirates left) - they can go over them to be sure
>everything is on the up and up.
>
>Actually tho, when you think about all those Patrol Cruisers and SDBs
>that are built and put into service for a/piracy work, and all the crews
>that man them - it makes more sense to just skip building the ships and
>put a Naval representative on each ship that is released into commercial
>service.  This permanently installed representative of the Empire can
>ensure that the ship is only used for legal purposes; that the captain
>always pays his ship's payment; that the engineer never swears; and that
>the steward always helps little old ladies across the street.
>
>[babbling quietly in his corner of the interworld]
>
>douglas
>
>- -- 

You know, for me, this is as good a description of the way things were in
the Ziruu Sirkaa as you'd get. One of the major reasons the Long Night
happened were those individualistic, freedom-loving Solomani broke down the
system that had kept piracy impossible.

For me, the reason the early 3I allows armed starships in private hands is
because of the threat of pirates based in other governments. For the
reasons Hans has pointed out at length, piracy just wont happen *within*
empires. At the fringes of an empire, things are a different story - if you
can flee outside the reach of the Navy and Imperial Bureaucracy, then
stealing starships becomes much more worthwhile. Wars also start, because
one side gets sick of the other harbouring pirates, but thats another story.

In the first century or so of the Imperium, the border to run to is close,
so piracy is possible. Once the border is too far away, then piracy becomes
more and more difficult. The analogy I'm thinking of is the bushrangers of
Australia and the bandit gangs of the US. When the frontier ran out, then
the bushrangers had nowhere to run, and they ended up hung.

Similarly, I believe that privately-owned starship weaponary got rarer the
further into the core of the Third Imperium you got, because it was both
less necessary and more regulated. What is a "reasonable precaution" on the
Rim becomes noteworthy and then questionable the closer to Capital you get
.... after all, a single 250 megawatt laser could commit a quite spectacular
terrorist atrocity (just acclerating your ship into whatever wont work ...
the deep meson site will vape you before impact).

With the bureaucracy stuff, remember the Vilani ancestry of much of the
Third Imperium - and the fact that the Frontier is somewhere to go to run
away from the bloody paperwork ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: SWMego@aol.com
Subject: JOSEPH! Starship Design System!!!

In a message dated 97-10-23 03:09:25 EDT, you write:

> I think it is a pretty keen piece of work, worth taking a look at. It's
>  about 24k, though, so I won't post it to the list. But if anyone is
>  interested, email me and I'll send you a copy. I put it in plain vanilla
>  ASCII.

Joseph,
 Please e-mail me a copy of this! Thanks...

Derek...
www.netxp.com/fantasticplastic

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:55:18 -0400
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: U R a generous alien

>

Hi.

On 10/19/97 at 01:03 PM,  DustyLV769@aol.com said:

> Yes, you have a point.  What we need is an expert in metallurgy who can
> say if a metal plaque or something similiar can exist for 2-3 hundred
> million years.

I don't know about metal, but what about granite?  It will last for hundreds of
millions of years.  A large granite plaque with very deep lettering should make
an interesting and obvious artifact.  Of course, one might interpret it as a
relic of a primitive lost civilisation of ones own species, rather than an alien
artifact.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:54:05 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Who is Niven?

>That's really amazing, for someone interested in science fiction,
>especially "hard" science science fiction, not to have heard of Larry
>Niven.  So go, run, don't walk, to the bookstore or library and read
>some of his work.  He's both a very good writer, and a very imaginative
>thinker.  I hope that you enjoy his writing as much as I (and everyone I
>know in this context) have. =20

Sounds really good. I think I will read some of it very soon ... [sound of
running]

>.se means Sweden, right?  At least his major works are likely to have
>been translated into Swedish, and your posts suggest that your English
>is quite fluent.  You should be able to find him in either language at a
>major bookstore. =20

I prefer reading in the author's own language whenever possible (possible
means English or Swedish texts). That way I both get to enjoy the books
more, and I learn some more English in the process. I am the gamemaster
(referee, storyteller) for three different RPG's, all of them English, and I
play several more English games.

>Look for these books:
>
>Ringworld (his best-known novel)
>The Ringworld Engineers (sequel)
>Protector

[flash of insight]

Ringworld?! Niven wrote Ringworld?! In that case, I *have* read some of his
works, although that was quite a while ago (about seven years, which means a
little more than a third of my life...). I even played a Ringworld RPG once,
but the GM for that game moved, and he took his books with him :-(

>There are a lot of others, but I can't remember any other titles.  You
>might find a list on the web.
>
>Happy reading!

Thank you. You WILL be right about that, I am sure.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:07:42 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:58:55 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I know Craig is going to point out the ones I missed, but this will be a
> good start.

The Ringworld Series

Integral Trees
The Smoke Ring

The Mote in God's Eye (or was that Pournelle?)



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:08:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:

> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I went over the recoil calculations and they are correct.  I saw that the 
> equation for slug throwers was much less 0.15 v. 150.  But then i saw the 
> small print.  For slug throwers this factor is multiplied by the Muzzle 
> energy in Joules.  High energy weapons are calculated with MEGAjoules!  As a 
> matter of fact when I converted the energy of the "Cricket" to joules and 
> plugged it into the slug thrower recoil equation, it worked to the same 
> number.
> 

I'll have to go dig it out, but I _think_ recently posted a design of a
plasma handgun that was quite nice...kinda heavy, but quite
manageable...(or maybe I thought about posting it and forgot to)? 

There's no lower energy limit to plasma weapons in the design sequence!  I
think mine ended up being a 10 or 15 _kjoule_ weapon. Damned if I can
find it right now, though...I'll look at the recoil numbers on it at home.
 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:07:43 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:21:01 -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> Things-that-man-wan-not-meant-to-know aside, jumpspace would most likely
> just look like noise (random lights and colors) or nothing at all.

If the jump bubble really *does* separate the "physics" of two universes
(ie: J-space and the N-space occupying the inside of the bubble), it would
actually make sense that the bubble doesn't allow the jump space equivalent
of "light" to pass through it in the first place.  If not, if light can
pass through, perhaps time can also (ouch!).

I envision the inside of a jump bubble as appearing as the inside of a
perfectly polished mirror.  If you are running external lights or open a
window shutter, you see a concave distortional view of the ship (and
yourself) looking back at you.  This would create an artificial sense of
claustrophobia, heightening the very real fact that a meter or so beyond
the ship is another dimension entirely (trying to wrap your brain around
the reality of that situation *could* very well cause "jump sickness" in
some individuals).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:01:40 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?

Robert Heinlein is _THE_ SF author.  Stories I first read as a child, I
still avidly read as an adult (and give to my kids to read).  =


Starship Troopers
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Stranger in a strange land
Friday
The Rolling Stones
Job, A comedy of justice
I will fear no evil
Double Star

=2E..just to name a few

> =

> I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
> unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litteratur=
e :-)
> =

> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
> ---------------------------------------------
> "And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,=

> because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"
> =

> Hinterlands, William Gibson

- -- =

_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2002
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2003



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: B5  **Spoiler Alert**
JTAS
Re: Fleet deployment
Re: Starship classification scheme
Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)
Re: Jump Technical Qs... (fwd)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Jump Weapon?
Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
Jspace (fwd)
Re: Definition: Grav Compensator
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
Re: Jump Space technical Qs...
Re: Larry Niven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:07:40 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: B5  **Spoiler Alert**

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:16:25 -0500 (CDT), Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> >    ***SPOILER ALERT***
> > 
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Claudia allegedly
> > left the series because she wanted to take time off to do some non-B5 stuff
> > (essentially removing her from a total of only 4 episodes).  JMS wanted her
> > to be in all 22 episodes of season five, and she eventually left.
> 
> Incorrect, as JMS and multiple cast members have explained -- I think most
> of the backstory should be available on the Lurker's Guide.  Claudia
> wanted to _be_ in 18 episodes, but to _be_paid_ for 22, whether she
> appeared in them or not.  That would violate the other actors' contracts,
> and was unacceptable.  JMS was willing to limit her to 18 episodes (at
> standard pay) or take her for the full 22.  It was Ms. Christian's sole
> and entire decision to leave the show, and her subsequent distortions and
> misrepresentations have certainly blackened her name in my view.

I was just paraphrasing some of what Claudia said in rebuttal to JMS'
reasons for her leaving, found on a webpage I visited a few months ago (of
course, I cannot for the life of me remember the URL).  Apparently
*someone* isn't telling the truth, but I'm not about to finger anyone with
any certainty.  I did say *allegedly*, after all.  And after seeing her
performance in the season finale last night (her best *ever*, IMHO), it
will truly be sad to see her go :(



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:21:21 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: JTAS

Is JTAS every going to be published again?  I have only received two 
issues, has the third and fourth been printed yet?

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:19:08 -0400
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Fleet deployment

>
   
   Hi.
   
> From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
   
> Hans Rancke-Madison wrote;
>>Continuing the thread about how the Imperial Navy would be deployed, here
>>are some calculations I've made about the IN:
   [snip]
   
> You seem to be assuming that the cost of the navy is equal to the cost of
> its ships.  This is rather simplistic, but there may be a reason for it.
   
   Sheesh! For the Nth time now...  (Am I sending these posts into a bit dump?)
   
   Hans is using the TCS figure of an /annual/ budget of 10% of the fleet
   cost per year.  This /includes/ things like salaries, benefits,
   ammunition, environmental restoration, bases, maintainance,
   administration, hospitals, hangers, schools, office supplies, and
   everything else in addition to the cost of the ships.
   
> In case there is not; Remember that one of the single larges expenses the
> Imperial Navy will have is salaries and fringe benefits.  This expense will
> be big enough to rival the Capital Shipbuilding budget.
   
   In fact, the total of all the above expenses will be about 4 times
   that budget, if present day military reality is any guide.  But these
   numbers ARE INCLUDED in the annual budget that Hans uses.
   
> In addition there are the following budget categories to consider;
> Shipyard maintainence and expense
> Naval Intelligence
> Research and Development (a biggie!)
> Logistics
> etc.
   
> Let me know if you've already accounted for these things.
   
   All these things are accounted in the annual budgets that TCS supposes
   (and Hans uses).  And these suppositions are not so different from the
   present day military and economic reality of the USA.  If you don't
   believe me, just let me know and I'll email you a copy of the 1997
   US Naval budget.  (I've already posted this budget to the TML twice
   now.)
   
   -Rob
   
   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:12:39 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Starship classification scheme

Please send me a copy at your leisure
Thanks 
Pat Connaughton


- ----------
> From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
> To: TML <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Starship classification scheme
> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 9:39 PM
> 
> A fellow on the Star Wars RPG has developed a Starship Designation System
> for said game. It is a work that a Vilani would just *love*, and might be
> of interest to Traveller refs/players/aficionados. While some of the
terms
> are setting-specific to the SW-RPG (and some just don't make sense), the
> author based the work on modern classification schemes (US Milspec, I
> think).
> 
> I think it is a pretty keen piece of work, worth taking a look at. It's
> about 24k, though, so I won't post it to the list. But if anyone is
> interested, email me and I'll send you a copy. I put it in plain vanilla
> ASCII.
> 
> Joseph Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:37:25 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)

Moin douglas,

> You are, I assume from the numbers above, postulating a Imperial
> population of some 15 Trillion? 

	rest of the junk deleted. Do you realy thing that T4-Vol1
	relects employment in the 3I in any sense ? Those are only
	the career pathes of Marc's choice. You should add those
	careers of TNE, and those forgotten in TNE as they are even
	to uninteresting for zipers in the wilds.

	If 1%% is in one of the T4-Vol1 careers, its a lot. How many
	astronauts does the US have, how many citizen do the have ?

	Become real please, traveller is hard SciFi.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:27:07 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Jump Technical Qs... (fwd)

Moin Derek Wildstar,

> Unlike certain other members of the crew (like the navigator and pilot, who
> basically have the week off during jump), the engineering staff has something
> to do all the time.

	Of course the astrogator has still work, he'is "viewing" the jump
	space and does his calculation regulary to adjust things, or
	better the tell the engineer to adjust it. The enineer has the
	most busiest part. He's constantly watching the HPGs. HPGs are
	mechanical items, and while they are perfect for short powering
	lasers, they are'nt perfect for one week constant spin up/down
	at maximum ROF. You can be sure that they have to be watched
	carefully. The one third HPG has its backup (at TL:A+) if something
	sounds unusual turn on the next bank, and repair the other.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> 
> << 
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> >>
> 
> Marc has gotten in the way by insisting that the charts for chargen for
> the aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things. 

The audience rises as one to their feet, screaming themselves hoarse,
applauding with a sound like continuous thunder!!!  All f*cking right,
Marc!!!  Woo-hoo!  This is the single most encouraging two-sentence
message I've ever read on the TML.  Maybe, just maybe, there really *is*
hope for IG...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:47:04 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Weapon?

At 12:15 am 10/22/97 +0100, Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
>Hi,
>
>	During tonight's Trav sesh, I explained to one of my players - Steve -
>about the 100 diameter jump limit. I also told him that a ship attempting
>jump while still on a planet would destroy much of it. This is my
>understanding at least.
>
>	Steve them asked what was to stop someone from performing a suicide jump
>on a planet. I couldn't answer him. Can anyone else do so?

	Certainly. I don't remember the part about a jump from the surface causing
damage to the planet from any version of the "official" descriptions ...
The ship attempting jump won't do much damage to the planet, but it'll sure
wipe itself out as random molecules drop out of jump space all the way from
here to Andromeda. Voila! A flashy way to commit suicide AND scatter your
ashes simultaneously, but no major threat.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:55:47 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

Moin Hans Rancke-Madsen,

> >>If piracy wasn't so common, why should the Imperium allow any civilian ship
> >>to mount weapons? Whenever you buy or have a ship built for you, you may
> >>*always* get "civilian grade" weapons and defense systems, no question asked.

	Perhaps those peacefull traders running subsidary for their
	homeworld government are drafted to the reserve in wartime.

> Douglas, if you know how a 3G merchant ship can compete with a 1G ship of
> the same jump rating, feel free to enlighten the rest of us.

	I've build a container Liner with 3,7G. Oh this ship has only
	this accelleration if he drops the containers clipped under.

	Its a well armed Liner, 2 xray lasers, 2 tuneable, 2 sandcasters,
	4 meson guns at TL:D. The TL:F version has also a black globe
	and a meson screen. If the cargo is droped the ship has 360dt,
	and can outfight most oponents of that size.

	Why can he compete - Its TNE and those Liners are trading in
	escord fleets, normal fleet size is 6 Liners, 12 200dt Traders,
	12 80dt Prospectors and 36 fighters.

	High risk - high profit.  Ever dealed with the devil ;-)

	Those ships could'nt compete in the Regency (price for the
	hull+drive is 400 MCr for 240dt cargo Jump4) but they can
	compete in the wilds, and with a CruRon as close escord
	even in the event horizon.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:03:38 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

At 12:48 am 10/23/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Hmm. Here's a question then. If a hit by a laser holes a section with
>> atmosphere and a lhyd tank, won't the two mix and combust (assuming the
>> laser also provides a spark)? Of course, millitary vessels would probably
>> be depressurized before seeing combat and the crew wearing vacc suits.
>> Given the timescale involed, so too civilian ships, I suppose.
>
>Hydrogen and oxygen, like all gas mixtures have definite limits to
>flammability. Exceed the limits (either too much or too little) and the
>mix won't ignite. For example, for the *really* deep dives, a mixture
>of hydrogen and oxygen is used as the breathing mixture. There's so
>*little* oxygen in it that it won't ignite. 

	A recent article by a historian (in Smithsonian's "Air And Space"
magazine) argued, based on physics, flame spread, color, and the _slow_
rate of combustion, that the Hindenburg disaster was caused by the
_envelope_ igniting, not a hydrogen fire.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:49 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Hydrogen and oxygen, like all gas mixtures have definite limits to
> flammability. Exceed the limits (either too much or too little) and the
> mix won't ignite. For example, for the *really* deep dives, a mixture
> of hydrogen and oxygen is used as the breathing mixture. There's so
> *little* oxygen in it that it won't ignite.
> 
> Also, Lhyd is *cold*. That means it'll take a lot of energy to get the
> mix up to ignition temp. In fact, the main result of spraying LHyd into
> the air will be that the air liquifies! Or even *freezes*.
> 

OK, I'm curious.  You have a Laser hit the fuel tank, pass through, and
pierce the interior passageways of the ship.  Obviously you are expeling
LHyd into space (until a baffle seals the hole), but you are also
spewing it into the ship.

Suppose the ship had not been vented, normal atmosphere available.

I am assuming a fire starts where the laser pierces the bulkhead - LHyd
spews all over it.  What happens?

1) Lots of fire - with H2 feeding

2) Interior explosion

3) LHyd puts out fire (cools it below ignition point) and floods
passageway (until a baffle seals the hole)

4) Something totally else

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:16:34 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Jspace (fwd)

Moin MJ Dougherty,

> The REAL problem is the *things* you see in there. 

	I just remember discussion of the last year around this topic,
	and my "Water for the Deserts" has the following part.

	Original idea : Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au

<h1>
	     Passenger - male 17
</h1>
	The *Disciples of the Bright Way* are a sect that believe their deity
	exists in jumpspace, and communicates directly with people while they
	are in jump. They call the sight of J-space *The Face of the Deity*
	and have a secret combination of drugs and meditation practices that
	reduce (but not eliminate!) the insanity impact of viewing J-space.
<p>
	They are generally not dangerous, but their disturbing practice of
	shooting up  drugs and staring out of an open porthole into J-space
	during the week of a jump means that most captains will refuse to
	allow them on board under *any* circumstances.
<p>
	However, the Disciples will pay an *obscene* amount of money for
	passage on a ship, and since they don't care about bodily comforts
	they are quite happy to bunk two to a stateroom under middle passage
	conditions, and pay up to Cr25,000 each for their 'pilgrimage'.
<p>
	You are a noble count so you don't need to worry about money. You
	haven't asked the captain yet to be allowed a place in front of the
	porthole in the air lock.
<p>
<pre>
	13 837496-E
	   Hobbies : History 2, Env.Suite 2, Unarmed MA 2, Astrogation 2

	17 837496-E
	   Str 8 + Unarmed MA  2 = A
	   Agl 3
	   Con 7 + Env. Suite  2 = 9
	   Int 4
	   Edu 9 + Astrogation 2 = B
	         + History     2 = B
</pre>

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:44:45 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Definition: Grav Compensator

At 10:43 pm 10/21/97 -0800, Richard Hough wrote:
>The 3 Gs of a TL 12 grav compensator can only counteract 2 Gs while
>providing a 1 G artificial gravity. In my campaign the thrust axis of most
>ships are perpendicular to the ship decks (90 degrees to what is usually
>show in Traveller deck plans, in Star Trek, and in ocean-going ships). This
>is necessary so that ships can accelerate safely at 1 G above the
>compensated acceleration, as shown in SSDS. The 1 G left over is what holds
>them down. Ships that have decks parallel to the thrust axis can only
>accelerate up to their G compensation, and when they do that the inside of
>the ship is at zero G! Comments?

	I've always considered the inertial compensator and the artificial gravity
to be somewhat different devices, so that even the "Star Trek" style ships
can accelerate up to the limits of their G-compensation. That leaves the
interior a 0G relative acceleration, on which the artificial gravity is
superimposed.

>The reason this came up in my campaign is that the players asked if the
>compensator could affect things outside the ship's hull. Specifically, they
>wanted to tug a derelict ship by "grabbing" it with the G compensator. I
>said no, that the compensator can't penetrate the ship's hull, but couldn't
>give a good reason why it is able to penetrate things like bulkheads, cargo
>containers, or battle dress. Can anybody help me out?

	Easy--IC/AG isn't a field projected out from the deck plates, it's a field
projected BETWEEN the deck and ceiling plates. It affects everything that's
between the plates, but unless you can get the derelict between decks where
it's in the field ....

>Some other ideas we kicked around without resolving involve how
>controllable grav-compensators are. Can you have different compensation in
>different areas of the ship? I would assume so since the old toroidal lab
>ship had artificial gravity even if not rotating. If this is the case, why
>couldn't you arrange it so people could walk around on the ceiling as well
>as the floor and thereby double the floor space? Why not manipulate it so

	Again, if you're using the "between plates" field, it can only go one way.
But you can wrap the plates around a torus to provide the constant "out"
grav field of the old lab ship.

>cargo just 'falls' in and out of the hold instead of needing cranes or
>loaders? You could set them to fractional Gs to avoid damage.

	To do this, you'd have to have a movable plate "in front of" the cargo,
which can set up the field between itself and the plate "behind" the cargo,
and then get the movable plate out of the way so it doesn't get hit.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:16:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:16:43 +0200 (MET DST), Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm
wrote:

> >Larry Niven, author of a vast body of work, set in several fictional
> >universes, one of which , the Known Space series, is clearly a major
> >inspiration for much of Traveller. Run, do not, walk, but Run to your
> >nearest decent library and check out his many books and read them. Do it
> >now! don't turn off your computer, I'll watch it for you GO! GO! ;-)
> >
> ><shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"
> 
> By the way ...
> 
> OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)
> 
> Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?
> 
> I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
> unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litterature :-)

Have you heard of "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the movie due out
early next month)?

BTW, who's Arthur C. Clarke? :)



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:33:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

>>>It's just people having read too much Niven.
>>
>>It is impossible to read too much Niven.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
>
> Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...

Larry Niven? Author of "Ringworld" and a *lot* of other books?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:44:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

>>Given that the laws of physics out side the jump bubble are *different*
>>and may involve extra dimensions, it's possible that you could see
>>things that your "model" can't accomodate.
>
> Hmm. Except that you will only be able to see what your senses will let
> you. Since your visual sense is limited to 3d, it will only see stimuli in
> 3d. You'd have to design 4d glasses that would translate stimuli to 3d to
> actually see any 4d phenomena -- and then you'd only see it in 3d.

No, you can see a 3d "projection" of a 4d event, just like a drawing or
picture is a 2d projection of a 3d event.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:46:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

> Simply *seeing* jumpspace would have no worse of an effect than seeing
> anything else. It may look funky or weird, but there is no reason to
> believe that it would cause mental breakdown any more than any other sight
> would.
>
> Things-that-man-wan-not-meant-to-know aside, jumpspace would most likely
> just look like noise (random lights and colors) or nothing at all.
>
> Note that I am *not* advocating an abolishion of jump sickness, or even
> psionic handwaves about how jspace might effect the mind. I'm just the
> ranting that the "seeing-it-makes-you-crazy" idea makes little scientific
> sense. :-)

Well, another take on things is the jump makes you 4 dimensional. And
while around other 3d objects that have been converted you are pretty
much ok. But just wait until your senses have to deal with *real* 4d
objects. 

This gets around the "you can only perceive 3d" bit. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

In mail you write:

>>>There are a lot of combustible materials aboard a ship!
>>No more so than a modern naval vessel - which only explodes when you hit a
>>magazine; missile magazines in Traveller should be less explosive.
>
> This may be true, but there is a great potential for fires in various parts
> of the ship. And fires within a contained area (such as a spaceship) can be
> quite deadly unless you are using some kind of breathing apparatus.

On the other hand, while ships have *big* problems with flooding
compartments, spaceships aren't going to have *near* the hassles with
venting a compartment to vacuum.

>>There's probably nowhere near enough O2 onboard to make a ship explode.
>
> OK, to set this issue straight, you will need to relax. Sit down in a
> comfortable chair, close your eyes and take a deep breath ...   :-)
>
> In school, we turned a small metal can upside-down, added some hydrogen ...
> instant ear-popper ! And we used only the oxygen in the normal air we=
>  breathed.

Sure, but the hydrogen sources on the ship are rather more
concentrated. You'll note that the Hindenburg *burned* rather than
exploded. That's because the oxygen and hydrogen can't mix fast enough
on that scale.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:20:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Space technical Qs...

In mail you write:

> I am sitting still, I prepare and enter jumpspace.  Now, does the
> jump drive need to remain functional during the entire jump?  Or is
> it only used to get you into jumpspace and once there, the whole ship
> could turn off power, including the jump drive?  IOW, it makes the
> jump-tunnel and then you enter it and that is all there is to it...

> Or, does the jump drive get you into jumpspace and need to be
> functioning to maintain the jump?

This is not specified in the rules. And there is some disagreement on
the topic.

> The reason I am asking is I'd like to know what equipment is vital
> during the move through jumpspace.  What could be turned off for
> repair during the week-long jump?  What could randomly 'fail' that
> would keep them in jump?  What if the jump-drive failed, would they
> fall from jumpspace?  Die?  Be 'Lost-in-Space' (Danger Will Robinson).

I don't think *anyone* has ever advocated the possibility of a failure
leaving you in Jump space. What has been advocated is that if the Jump
"bubble" fails, the ship is no longer protected from jumpspace (sort of
like throwing the whole ship thru the "interface".

What maintains the bubble is a good question. Probably the hull grid at
a *minimum*. Possible other parts of the drive as well.

I'm of the "once you make it into jump you can relax" school. So I'd
say that once you get into jump, you are committed. The time and place
you come out is already determined. So you could chop the drive (and
even the hull grid :-) into little pieces and throw it out the airlock.

I "justify" this by noting that the only time the j-drive is using
power (according to the rules) is as you get ready to jump.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:09:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:58:55 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> At 12:42 AM 10/23/97 +0200, Jens wrote:
> 
> >Forgive my ignorance, but I do truly need enlightment.
> >
> >Who is Niven? I have never heard of him/her ...
> 
> Larry Niven is one of the greatest SF writers ever to walk the Earth.  Run,
> do not walk, to your bookstore and pick up the following:
> 
> Neutron Star
> Protector
> Tales of Known Space
> Lucifer's Hammer (w/ Jerry Pournelle)
> A World Out of Time (My all-time favorite novel)
> N-space
> Playgrounds of the Mind
> 
> (these two are anniversary collections.. highly recommended)
> 
> Dream Park
> <can't remember>

The Barsoom Project

> California Voodoo Game
> 
> (these three books are Niven's look at the future of role-playing games!)
> 
> Legacy of Heorot
> Beowulf's Children
> Destiny's Road
> 
> (a new series, set on newly colonized worlds.. great for Traveller Refs..)
> 
> I know Craig is going to point out the ones I missed, but this will be a
> good start.

I am, but those are indeed a very good start.

First, *after* reading (at least) most of the Known Space short stories,
plus Protector and (if you can find it) World of Ptavvs, *then* read
Ringworld.  It's a stupendous novel, but it's far better if you're up on
the Known Space background going in.

Read "Footfall" and "The Mote in God's Eye" for two very different looks
at first contact with aliens.  "Mote" is on my all-time-best SF list,
along with Ringworld.

Gods, I envy anyone having all this to read for the first time...

(By the way, I agree with whoever noted that "Ringworld Throne" is a
clunker.  Also, "Gripping Hand" sucked in a deep and lasting way.  Ah,
well, even Homer nods. D'oh! :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2003
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2004



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Re: Jump Technical Qs...
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Traveller Digest #2000
Re: Interworld Commerce
Re: Larry Niven
Recommended Reading
Crime and Surveillance
RE: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)
Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?
Infrastructure
Re: Bulkheads
RE: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
RE: Jump Space technical Qs...
RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:33:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
 
> OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)
> 
> Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?
> 
> I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
> unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litterature :-)

<glancing up at his 5 foot shelf of Heinlein> oboy....

Robert Heinlein is one of the all-time greats ...from his early days as a
'Golden Age' pulp writer to his later, far more complex novels.


IF it's still in print or you can find it in a used bookstore or the
library, look up: The Past Through Tomorrow, the epic collection of his
future history series. The stories that make up this cycle were also
reprinted in a number of shorter books, The Green Hills of Earth, The Man
Who Sold the Moon, Methuselah's Children, Revolt in 2100, and the Menace
from Earth, among others.

Be aware, that a number of these stories were originally written for
markets like Boy's Life, and are juveniles in content.

There are also his juvenile novels, like Have Spacesuit, Will Travel,  The
Rolling Stones, Podykayne of Mars, Starman Jones, Tunnel in the Sky,
Farmer in the Sky.

In the late 50's and early 60's he started writing novels with more adult
themes, starting, IMHO with his greatest, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
followed by Stranger in a Strange Land. Others in this era are Starship
Troopers, and the capstone of his Future History series, Time Enough for
Love.

His later books, in the 70's and 80's became more entwined with playing
with the concept of fictional universes, as he recycled and resurrected
characters from disparate stories, tossed them all about, and developed a
grand battle twixt good and evil across his 'multiverse'. Friday is a
representative of this era, as is Job: A Comedy of Justice.

Other authors who are must-reads:

All the Flandry of Terra books you can find by Fritz Liebler. Actually,
anything by Fritz Liebler is good, but the Flandry series have contributed
to Traveller canon.

Keith Laumer wrote the Retief series, another very Traveller-ish series of
stories and novels.

Larry Niven's frequent writing partner, Jerry Pournelle has also
contributed, Mote in God's Eye, and it's sequel The Gripping hand' both
coauthored with Niven, and his C0-dominum novels, such as King David's
Spaceship, and Prince Mercenaries.

Gordon R. Dickson is another good hard SF author, as is Hal Clement and
Fred Saberhagen, whose Berserker series, about ancient maevolent robot
warships are a distinct source for Virus in TNE.

H. Beam Piper's Space Viking was translated almost directly into
Traveller. (The Sword Worlds confederation, despite anything _anyone_ says
has been translplanted directly into the Spinward Marches) His Little
Fuzzy novels (Little Fuzzy and Fuzzy Sapiens) while not very hard SF are
utterly kneeslapping rib-hurting funny.

Continuing in the comedy vein, get the Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
Harrison, who also wrote the Bill, the Galactic Hero series. 

Ahhh, what else? Joe Haldeman's The Forever War is a wrenching look at
what war in a relatavistic universe would be like.

I could go on and on, and haven't even touched on the books mentioned by
many others on this list, like C.J. Cherryh's SF novels, and on and on.

A First Survey of SF...wow...I've been reading it for almost 30 years now,
and I'm still on that first survey.. ;-)


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:33:27 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

At 04:47 PM 10/23/97 -0400, Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org> wrote:
>I went over the recoil calculations and they are correct.  [...]
>High energy weapons are calculated with MEGAjoules!  As a matter of fact 
>when I converted the energy of the "Cricket" to joules and plugged it into 
>the slug thrower recoil equation, it worked to the same number.

Good; it's supposed to do that.  For whatever it's worth, the "cricket"
has a muzzle energy of 0.0625Mj - approximately equivalent to a standard
20mm cannon (personally, I don't want that going off in my hand).

>Mind you, at higher techs, Fusion Pistols are very possible, and the recoil, 
>albeit very high (7 IIRC) it is tolerable.  Draconis Cluster website has 
>such a pistol at TL-16.

Yep.  The only one I ever had in one of my games was the PPMP-16X (Plasma
Pistol, Man-Portable, TL-16, Experimental).  It was fired a grand total of
once (and broke the wrist of the Vargr who shot it).  Oh, yes - it was a
miss, too.

>How do you find out how wide and how long the barrel of the thing is?

There really isn't a dimension available for plasma weapons (other than
'big honkin huge').  I think that visualizing some of the gear from MIB 
is probably appropriate.  Given the energy, I doubt that the muzzle is 
significantly less than an inch accross ...

>IIRC [recoil numbers are] a throwback from TNE days when the combat rules
use 
>a recoil factor to see how many shots could be fired in a turn before the 
>weapon became uncontrollable.  IIRC it was based on STR.  

Right.  I don't remember exactly how they were used, and my T:TNE stuff is
packed right now.

>The total number of shots fired in a turn were added up and if the total was 
>greater than strength, the difference was used as a negative DM to hit.

That sounds reasonable ... as do your rules for generating tasks versus
getting injured.

One thing to note about weapons designs ... I know this sounds obvious, but
I think I'd better mention it.  Referees always have the final say in what is 
and isn't allowed in their campaigns.  Just because something is buildable
with FF&S2 doesn't mean it has to appear in your campaign.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:15:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Technical Qs...

In mail you write:

> It's pretty well-established that you need a significant amount of time
> (preferably several days to a week) to do maintainance and recalibration of
> the jump drive after you exit jump before you can jump again.  Even jumping
> 'immediately' means taking an hour or so for the most basic cross-checks.
>
> I'd suggest this indicates that the jump drive and power plant can't be
> taken offline for maintenance while in jumpspace.

Or that "calibrating" the J-drive can only be down in normal space.
Which actually makes sense when you think about it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:01:42 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

>>I know a little of psychology (and you know what they say about a little
>>knowledge). Still, I have a very hard time with the concept of the mere
>>sight of jumpspace being a variable affecting "sanity."

I agree with the guy who once posted that looking at jump space doesn't
drive you crazy, being locked in a cabin the size of a closet for weeks
with a bunch of ex-military crewmembers and having nothing else *but* jump
space to look at drives you crazy.

On the other hand, maybe naked jump space looks *exactly* like William
Shatner music videos, reruns of the Police Academy movies, and talk-show
interviews of Melanie Griffith. That would drive anyone insane.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:04:50 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Digest #2000

Hey, did anyone get Traveller Digest #1900 after #1999? 8-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:03:17 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Interworld Commerce

>[blush]  No, I meant per year, but forgot to divide by 12.  I'm still trying
>to find the right balance between a LOT of traffic at the hi-pop/hi-tech
>worlds, and little traffic at the lo-pop/lo-tech worlds.  Lets alter the
>number a bit...
>
>(World TL*(Pop Code^2)) Ktons per year

Since population codes are powers of ten, this formula leads to a
significant imbalance of the traffic per capita. A TL 10 population 1
planet requires 1 Kton per year to support each inhabitant, while a
population 10 planet requires only 1/10000 of one ton per person.

I don't know if this is the kind of "balance" you are looking for.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:19:31 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> First, *after* reading (at least) most of the Known Space short stories,
> plus Protector and (if you can find it) World of Ptavvs, *then* read
> Ringworld.  It's a stupendous novel, but it's far better if you're up on
> the Known Space background going in.
> 
> Read "Footfall" and "The Mote in God's Eye" for two very different looks
> at first contact with aliens.  "Mote" is on my all-time-best SF list,
> along with Ringworld.
> 

One of my players read Mote and commented to me that it has a very
Traveller-esque feel to it. I agreed completely.

Also, don't forget Lucifer's Hammer, a story about a comet hitting
Earth.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:11:49 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Recommended Reading

"Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:
> ><shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"
> 
> By the way ...
> Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?

Oh, my ...

Robert Anson Heinlien.  One of the undisputed Grand Masters of Science
Fiction (the other two are Asimov and Clarke, by the way).  Definitely read
most of his "future histories", and pretty much anything else he wrote.  In
particular, look for: _The Past Through Tomorrow_, _Citizen of the Galaxy_,
_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, _Time Enough
for Love_, _Methuselah's Stepchildren_, and a couple of the juveniles, if
you can find them: _Starship Troopers_, _Podkayne of Mars_, _The Rolling
Stones_.  As far as I can tell, Heinlien invented the waterbed, and the
creature that David Gerrold renamed a 'tribble' (Heinlien called them 'Martian
Flatcats') and made famous on Star Trek.

> I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
> unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litterature :-)

Here's some more to take a look at (and hopefully, my suggestions won't
dumplicate many others, since I tend to specialize in that 'good old-time
SF'):

Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  Heinlien's mentor, and originator of many of the
themes used so often in "classic" space opera (including powered armor, 
later made famous by Heinlien in _Starship Troopers_ and adopted into
Traveller as "Battle Dress").  Read the Lensmen Series (_Triplanetary_,
_First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_, _Second-Stage Lensman_, and _Children of
the Lens_ if I remember correctly).  If you really like the Lensmen books,
pick up a copy of _GURPS Lensmen_ from SJG (it's the supplement that made
me go out and buy GURPS - but then again, I'm a Doc Smith fan).

James H. Schmitz.  Whatever you can find - if nothing else, NESFA has _The
Very Best of James H. Schmitz_ in print.  Particularly, read _Legacy_ (aka
_A Tale of Two Clocks_) for an idea of the kinds of things you can do with
forerunner civilizations.  If you're going to do a heavily psionic campaign,
I feel that _Universe Against Her_, _Telzey Toy_, and _The Lion Game_ are
must-read books.  I particularly like the way that Schmitz handles psionics,
but then again, I'm a Schmitz fan.

Additional things to read (that may be recommended by others, too):

Gordon R. Dickson.  If you're running a campaign that features military
adventures, Dickson's Dorsai books are a must-read.  You owe it to yourself
and your players to check out _The Tactics of Mistake_, _Dorsai!_, and 
several others in the cycle.

David Drake.  Another must-read for military or mercenary campaigns.  His
_Hammer's Slammers_ was quite popular, and is a good SF/military read.

C.J. Cherryh.  I highly recommend _Pride of Chanur_ (and follow-on works)
for all Traveller players.  Although the Hani (cat-like aliens) are vaguely
like Aslan*, it's a case of parallel evolution (both were written up at
nearly exactly the same time.

Fred Saberhagen.  _Berzerker_ and subsequent books are recommended if you'd
like to play in the New Era with Vampire Fleets and all that.  Although the
writers of T:TNE were unaware of Saberhagen's work (and I believe them, they
seemed to be pretty unaware of most of Traveller's Hard SF background), the
Vampires are Pretty Darn Close to Berzerkers in most respects (and IMHO
Saberhagen does it better).

Dr. Robert L. Forward.  _Dragon's Egg_.
George O. Smith.  _Venus Equilateral_.

Since nobody can be serious all the time, check out _Earthman's Burden_
by Anderson and Dickson.  It's SF, it's funny, and it's a good read.

There's more, but that'll give you a start, anyway (and besides, my SF
books are packed, so there are plenty more titles and authors, but I
can't double-check them).

* For new players, my one-sentance description of the Aslan is "Imagine, if
  you will, male Kzinti and female Hani merged into one race - it's not 
  accurate, but it'll give you a feel for the Aslan."  Most players who've 
  read both Niven and Cherryh go pale, and try to avoid annoying the nice 
  Aslan they just met. ;-)


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:18:46 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Crime and Surveillance

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:
> > Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
> > most crime absurdly risky
> 
> I've never read that one, but I did think Heinlien's "Friday" had good
> treatment of the issue.  There were cameras, but you never knew for sure
> if they were being monitored or not.

Don't forget David Drake's _Lacey and his Friends_, which contains not one,
but several mysteries set in a future where everyone is (potentially)
monitored
at all times, 24 hours a day.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:51:03 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)

Mike,

Perhaps the initial numbers were a bit skewed, but is the process 
incorrect?  Admittedly, I have gotten a bit frustrated about the way some 
numbers are tossed into the discussion, and then forever after accepted as 
fact.  But, even if we reduce all then numbers by 99%, as you suggest, we 
still end up with a database that includes 10 Tbytes of ship data, 50 
Tbytes of personnel data, and keeps 500 Gbytes of change data on the wire 
at any given time.

I did, however, propose an alternative (see Ship's Registration and Crew 
Certification) - is this more reasonable?

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Michael Koehne[SMTP:kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de]
Sent: 	Thursday, October 23, 1997 7:37 PM
To: 	Traveller Mailing List
Subject: 	Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, 
part 2) (fwd)

Moin douglas,

> You are, I assume from the numbers above, postulating a Imperial
> population of some 15 Trillion?

	rest of the junk deleted. Do you realy thing that T4-Vol1
	relects employment in the 3I in any sense ? Those are only
	the career pathes of Marc's choice. You should add those
	careers of TNE, and those forgotten in TNE as they are even
	to uninteresting for zipers in the wilds.

	If 1%% is in one of the T4-Vol1 careers, its a lot. How many
	astronauts does the US have, how many citizen do the have ?

	Become real please, traveller is hard SciFi.

- --
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:39:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?

Hello,
>are good for 2 years.  Merchants must certify their ships annually to
>carry cargo and/or passengers.

  Actually, this presents a great point. If outrunning a "suspicion of
piracy/smuggling/not honouring the Emperor's Birthday" notice (or just
skipping on your payments) were real easy (for, say, J-2+ ships) why
even bother pirating a cargo at all?

  Have a crooked contact (at least as common as a fence) ship a well-
insured cargo via your ship, have a special friend pirate your ship,
and then you both collect your respective loot. You may never see your
friend again, but who cares? OC, if he stiffs you on the goods you can
always retaliate by actually delivering them...

  Therefore, some sort of licensing or effective policing mechanism
must exist, or this would be common, leading to the foregoing, etc.

  Even better, the special Cr 800 emigrants package of low passage
and unlimited luggage from Bargain-Leap Shipping (Slaving Division).

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:38:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Infrastructure

Hello,
>>I'd like to finish off by re-emphasizing that all those ships, the 20,000
>>combat vessels, the 20,000 big escorts and the unspecified number of lesser
>>ships only represent 15% of the Cr150. Another 15% goes to the subsector
>>fleets and the remaining 70% goes to planetary defenses, though admittedly
>>6-40% of that (4.2-28% of the total) would go to armies.
>
>You seem to be assuming that the cost of the navy is equal to the cost of
>its ships.  This is rather simplistic, but there may be a reason for it.
>
>In case there is not; Remember that one of the single larges expenses the
>Imperial Navy will have is salaries and fringe benefits.  This expense will
>be big enough to rival the Capital Shipbuilding budget.

  A Pac-man has around 4000 crew at, say Cr 2000/mo., before pensions and
benefits, or ~MCr 100 pa. The ship costs BCr 300+ (?) and a "canonical"
maintenance (including what?) of 10%. The ships' payroll are not a major
factor.

>In addition there are the following budget categories to consider;
>Shipyard maintainence and expense

  Any "A" starport of the correct TL will have the facilities anyways, for
the large pool of civilian shipping out there. Perhaps only the Depots will
be purely (Imperial) naval shipyards. Also, a very good case can be (and has
been, IIRC) made that these things are covered under the 10% TCS maintenance.

>Naval Intelligence

  How much can that cost? (Longbow aside)

>Research and Development (a biggie!)

  Only relevant to TL 15 worlds, and the Imperial gov't as a whole. But, any
research is likely military-applicable in the background. Direct comparisons
to the US military-industrial complex are not necessarily valid.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:50:45 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Bulkheads

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: Bulkheads


(Snips of some good STUFF)
>When it comes to hulls, I use a double hulled approach (sometimes tripled
>on warships).  The inner hull is thin-ish (1 to 2 cm).  The outer hull is
>the "armor" and is as thick as as you desire.  Between the inner and outer
>hull is a gap of about 1.5 meters where piping, wiring, AG/CG modules, and
>other equipment is installed.  Maintenance and Technical staff spend a
>*lot* of time in the "inter-hull" spaces.
>
>Decks are a standard 3.5 meters with 2.5 between floor and overhead in
>standard spaces.  Between overhead and floor are crawl spaces where control
>and service conduits are placed and serviced.  In Engineering and Cargo
>spaces decks are often double high (7 meters) with the overhead exposed for
>easy access.
>
>Just my way of doing things.
>
>
>Eris

Eris,
I like a lot of your ideas, and can see some redesigning in the near future.
Never thought of the double hull trick but I do like it. I've been trying to
include crawl ways (mostly for creeping up on people, 'specially on larger
ships) but the space between inner and outer hull is even better. What do
you design ship deck plans in? I'm mostly using Corel Draw 6 or any of the
bitmap formats. I'd like to exchange some plans if possible.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:23:02 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

On Thursday, October 23, 1997 8:13 PM, Leonard Erickson 
[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com] wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> >>>There are a lot of combustible materials aboard a ship!
> >>No more so than a modern naval vessel - which only explodes when you 
hit a
> >>magazine; missile magazines in Traveller should be less explosive.

Darn, I wish I had caught this in the original reply!

There are many, many hazards aboard a modern Navy ship, the magazine is 
just one of them.  JP-5 (aircraft fuel and used for the gas turbine ships) 
is extremely hazardous.  Not sitting in a fuel tank, but in the lines, 
which when pierced spray JP-5, that is when it is very flammable. 
 Hydraulic fluid, when sprayed, is explosive.  Magnesium, used in the 
airframes of many aircraft, will not only burn at high temperatures, but 
once it starts burning it can't be put out by conventional means.  Other 
dangers aboard ships - the deep fat fryers, medicinal alcohol, paint, paint 
thinner, many of the solvents that are used.  The list goes on and on.

> >
> > This may be true, but there is a great potential for fires in various 
parts
> > of the ship. And fires within a contained area (such as a spaceship) 
can be
> > quite deadly unless you are using some kind of breathing apparatus.
>
> On the other hand, while ships have *big* problems with flooding
> compartments, spaceships aren't going to have *near* the hassles with
> venting a compartment to vacuum.

However, when you are feeding it from the high pressure air system (holed 
in a hit), you end up with the equivalent of a blow torch, even in a 
nominal vacuum.

>
> >>There's probably nowhere near enough O2 onboard to make a ship explode.
> >
> > OK, to set this issue straight, you will need to relax. Sit down in a
> > comfortable chair, close your eyes and take a deep breath ...   :-)
> >
> > In school, we turned a small metal can upside-down, added some hydrogen 
....
> > instant ear-popper ! And we used only the oxygen in the normal air we=
> >  breathed.
>
> Sure, but the hydrogen sources on the ship are rather more
> concentrated. You'll note that the Hindenburg *burned* rather than
> exploded. That's because the oxygen and hydrogen can't mix fast enough
> on that scale.

If you have a fire hot enough, anything will burn.  (Lesson from Navy fire 
fighting school)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:12:44 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Space technical Qs...

I tend to believe that the J-Drive is active the entire week, but at 
'Standby' power.

Killing the drive is just a fancy way of sticking a gun to your head.

I did have one adventure where the nav-computers reset during jump (killing 
the jump clock).  It made the PCs sweat, but since a gravity well will 
propagate you from J-space, they emerged as planned.  (The J-drive, IMHO, 
has it's own integral computers that were not affected.)
_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________


- ----------
From: 	Leonard Erickson[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, October 23, 1997 8:20 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Jump Space technical Qs...

In mail you write:

> I am sitting still, I prepare and enter jumpspace.  Now, does the
> jump drive need to remain functional during the entire jump?  Or is
> it only used to get you into jumpspace and once there, the whole ship
> could turn off power, including the jump drive?  IOW, it makes the
> jump-tunnel and then you enter it and that is all there is to it...

> Or, does the jump drive get you into jumpspace and need to be
> functioning to maintain the jump?

This is not specified in the rules. And there is some disagreement on
the topic.

> The reason I am asking is I'd like to know what equipment is vital
> during the move through jumpspace.  What could be turned off for
> repair during the week-long jump?  What could randomly 'fail' that
> would keep them in jump?  What if the jump-drive failed, would they
> fall from jumpspace?  Die?  Be 'Lost-in-Space' (Danger Will Robinson).

I don't think *anyone* has ever advocated the possibility of a failure
leaving you in Jump space. What has been advocated is that if the Jump
"bubble" fails, the ship is no longer protected from jumpspace (sort of
like throwing the whole ship thru the "interface".

What maintains the bubble is a good question. Probably the hull grid at
a *minimum*. Possible other parts of the drive as well.

I'm of the "once you make it into jump you can relax" school. So I'd
say that once you get into jump, you are committed. The time and place
you come out is already determined. So you could chop the drive (and
even the hull grid :-) into little pieces and throw it out the airlock.

I "justify" this by noting that the only time the j-drive is using
power (according to the rules) is as you get ready to jump.

- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:56:23 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)

Gentlebeings,

I think we need to establish some basics before the thread erupts into a
flamewar (which I see building).  Realistically, before we can determine
if piracy is practical, some of the points that are ...vague, in canon
need to be addressed.  They are:

1) Just how much space traffic is there (both inter- and intra- system)?

System that I proposed (not a lot of traffic on that thread, can I assume 
we are in agreement?):

(World TL*(Pop Code^2)) Ktons per year

x1.5 if Starport B
x2 if Starport A

x2 if the world is AG or is Ri
x3 if the world has a military base or is a Capital
x4 if the world is Ind

2) How good are the various sensor platforms at the various tech levels?
Conversely, how good are the various stealth platforms at the various
tech levels?

Sensor technology appears to be more effective than generally available 
masking technology.  The main thrust of disagreement remaining seems to be 
over just how identifiable a given ship will be, if it is attempting to 
conceal it's true identity, size, etc...

3) At what TL can a system support (not build or develop, buy and
support) a planetary, orbital, and system defense network?  At what TL
can a system support a planetary, orbital, and system detection network?

Has not been addressed as yet

4) What are the duties of an SDB when the Imperium is not at war.  What
would a rotation cycle be (ie how long would it be on duty before it
could stand down for R&R, maintenance, etc)

Has not been addressed as yet

5) How involved is the IN in anti-piracy work, or is that the province
of another department (like the scouts)?  Just how much of the presumed
5% of GWP that goes to the military goes to the IN?  How do the
subsector and planetary forces fit in?

I think we have determined that the IN is *ahem* very involved.  Just what 
the budget is seems to still be under debate, tho' it appears most of the 
list is content with the 5% rule.  What it is used for, and how much the 
other branches get has not been resolved.

6) How much of the industrial capacity is reserved for the IN?  What is
the base TL of the IN, and how does that affect access to the high TL
shipyards for others?  How easy is it to retrofit high TL items (sensors
and stealth equipment) onto an existing ship?

Has not been addressed as yet

7) How corruptable are starport officials?  (Both STC and shipyard)

Appears to be fairly simple, as long as you are careful.

8) How easy/difficult is it to forge, alter, create or manipulate ship
identification, papers, transponders, etc?  What market would there be
for cargo, starship parts, starships and the like?

Forging the transponder is difficult to impossible.  Adding additional 
transponders seems to be the concensus.

Ship's registration is under debate.

Market for ships appears to be somewhat limited.  10-20% value (more if you 
can get it out of the Empire?).

I didn't catch whether or not we agreed on standard parts.  The last two 
posts both supported standardized parts, but one of the posts was mine.  Is 
this point settled?

I know that battle lines in this debate have been drawn.  Let's redraw
them, or drop the thread.

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2004
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2005



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
The Essential Science Fiction Author's List
Re: Pirates exist because...
re: marc holding things up
Re: Who is Niven?
X-tec Handheld fusion pistol
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Internal explosions and fuel hits
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Who was Heinlein?
Gloden age SF
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
Ship Classification: Have you gotten it yet?
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Bulkheads
Re: Pirates exist because...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:04:59 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> The Mote in God's Eye (or was that Pournelle?)

Pournelle-Niven. Also the sequel The Moat around Murcheson's Eye is worth
reading.
The Mote has some very traveller-like equipment and other things..
(Marc, where is the Imperial Starburst from and where did You leave the
comets from it? B-) )

Mikko Parviainen
- -- 
Facts of life:
Stormtroopers beat Red-Shirted Ensigns
Chewie kicks Worf's butt
Death Star will beat _any_ Federation, Klingon or Romulan vessel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:39:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

On 10/24/97 at 12:07 AM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>The Ringworld Series

>Integral Trees
>The Smoke Ring

>The Mote in God's Eye (or was that Pournelle?)

Yes. ;->  Pournelle and Niven co-wrote the Motie books.

Include the Dreampark books, all of the "Known Space" books (inventing the
Protectors, Kitzi, Puppeteers, Beowolf Shaffer, Gil Hamilton of Arm and the
Ringworld..not the idea, the place ;-), a huge number of excellent short
stories ("Inconstant Moon", "The Hole Man", and "Spirals"), the universe of
"The Magic Goes Away" and any number of essays like "Man of Steel, Woman of
Kleenex." ;-D

IMO, Niven is among a handful of authors that *all* science fiction fans
should be familiar with.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 01:37:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: The Essential Science Fiction Author's List

On 10/23/97 at 10:16 PM,  "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm"
<jenry023@student.liu.se> said:

>><shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"

>By the way ...

>OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)

>Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know
>about?

This is a partial list of Science Fiction Authors I have read and enjoyed. 
I'm *sure* I'm missing many good authors, but my TML friends will help me
complete it.

- -A-
 Anderson, Poul 
 Anvil, Chris
 Asimov, Issac

- -B-
 Ballard, J G
 Benford, Gregory
 Bester, Alfred
 Blish, James
 Bova, Ben
 Bradbury, Ray
 Bradley, Marion Zimmer
 Brin, David
 Brown, Fredric
 Brunner, John
 Bujold, Lois
 Busby, F M
 
- -C-
 Card, Orson Scott 
 Chandler, A Bertrum
 Cherryh, C J
 Clarke, Arthur C
 Clement, Hal

- -D-
 Dalmas, John
 De Camp, L Sprague
 Del Rey, Lester
 Delany, Samuel
 Dick, Philip
 Dickson, Gordon
 Drake, David

- -E-
 Ellison, Harlen
  
- -F-
 Farmer, Philip Jose
 Flynn, Michael
 Forward, Robert
 Foster, Alan Dean
 Frank, Pat
 
- -G-
 Garrett, Randall
 Gunn, James

- -H-
 Haldeman, Joe
 Heinlein, Robert Anson
 Herbert, Frank
 Hogan, James
 
- -I-
 Ing, Dean
 
- -J-
 
- -K-
 Kornbluth, Cyril M
 
- -L-
 Laumer, Keith
 LeGuin, Ursula
 Leiber, Fritz
 Leister, Murry
 Lem, Stanislaw
 
- -M-
 McCaffery, Anne
 Miller, Walter
 Morris, Janet
  
- -N-
 Niven, Larry
 Norton, Andre
 Norse, Robert

- -O-
 O'Donnell, Kevin
 
- -P-
 Pangborn, Edgar
 Padgett, Lewis
 Piper, H Beam
 Pohl, Fred
 Pournelle, Jerry
 
- -Q-

- -R-
 Reynolds, Mark
 Robinson, Spider
  
- -S-
 Saberhagen, Fred
 Sargent, Pamela
 Schimitz, James
 Sheffeld, Charles
 Silverberg, Robert
 Simak, Clifford
 Smith, Doc
 Smith, George O
 Spinrad, Norman
 Sturgeon, Theodore
 
- -T-
 Turtledove, Robert
  
- -U-

- -V-
 Vance, Jack
 Van Vogt, A E
 Vinge, Joan
 Vinge, Vinner
 
- -W-
 Watson, Ian
 Weber, David
 White, James
 Wollheim, Donald
 
- -X-

- -Y-

- -Z-
 Zahn, Timothy
 Zelazny, Roger 
 
 
Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:53:21 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

At 14:22 23/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
>
>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens
for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no piracy
problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available and deployed
means that there is a threat that needs a solution. 
>
>If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions would
be used by much needed other government programs. 
>
>snip
Valid, but I doubt the premise; You may keep anti-piracy forces to prevent
an outbvreak of piracy, just as countries keep armies even though theyt are
not at war.
Alternately, consider the claim that 
'if there were no widespread polio in Australia, then the government would
not spend money on large stocks of polio vaccine.'  The governament may
prudently keep large stocks of vacccine even though there is no polio epidemic.

Colin

  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:15:52 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: marc holding things up

Marc wrote:
>> Marc has gotten in the way by insisting that the charts for chargen for
>> the aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
Craig Berry added:
>The audience rises as one to their feet, screaming themselves hoarse,
>applauding with a sound like continuous thunder!!!  All f*cking right,
>Marc!!!  Woo-hoo!  This is the single most encouraging two-sentence
>message I've ever read on the TML.  Maybe, just maybe, there really *is*
>hope for IG...

And this Englishmen smiles slightly and claps genteely (but inside his
British reserve exterior completely agrees with Craig!).

Good call Marc.


tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:53:56 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Who is Niven?

And "RingWorld Throne", the 3rd book of the Ringworld Trilogy.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:10:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: X-tec Handheld fusion pistol

With that amount of recoil, it is pretty useless as anything other than as
a last-ditch suicide weapon. On the other hand, at about Cr1000, it is hell
on wheels as a mine ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:37:21 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> writes:

> << 
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet? 
>   >>
>
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

*Four* cheers for Marc.  Hip, hip...

This is such good news I think it justifies the "me too" messages.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:56:17 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Internal explosions and fuel hits

If you had a fairly minor hole (smallish laser hit?) in the fuel tank and
l-hyd leaking into the main compartments of the ship, you'd get
freeze-damage at first. At the fringe of the leakage you'd get some flame
where the hydogen (now gas) and air meet - enough air for combustion.

Eventually, the air reaches an explosive mixture. That is, just enough
oxygen and hydrogen mixed (this works with methane - I assume it works as
well with hydrogen) to stop burning at the fringe and instead to burn very
rapidly throughout the whole area filled by the gas.

The result is a spectacular internal explosion. Bad news.

I base this theory on a typical school experiment, the exploding can. You
feed gas from the gas tap in the bottom, light the excess at the top. It
burns gently at the top, but gradually the gas mix chanmges inside until it
reaches an explosive mixture. The detachable (but firmly closed) lid of the
can then travels straight up several feet - and this from a volume of a
couple of liters. Such an explosion might not puncture heavy bulkheads but
it's certainlty bad news for interior walls, systems, personnel etc.
That's my theory, anyway. I'd bet there's a hydrogen-lead warning system to
allow the crew to do something about this.
Martin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:53:23 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

Bill Prankard wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>I went over the recoil calculations and they are correct.  I saw that the
>equation for slug throwers was much less 0.15 v. 150.  But then i saw the
>small print.  For slug throwers this factor is multiplied by the Muzzle
>energy in Joules.  High energy weapons are calculated with MEGAjoules!  As a
>matter of fact when I converted the energy of the "Cricket" to joules and
>plugged it into the slug thrower recoil equation, it worked to the same
>number.
[snip]

	You know, you could try adding a one-shot derringer-style
grenade-launcher, a gyroscopic compensator, electronic sights, and a laser
pointer...  It might just get that recoil down into the realm of sanity,
and boy would the cricket look cool; "Noisy Cricket on steroids and bad
acid" :).


[Wildstar's recoil explanation snipped]
>IIRC this is a throwback from TNE days when the combat rules use a recoil
>factor to see how many shots could be fired in a turn before the weapon
>became uncontrollable.  IIRC it was based on STR.  The total number of shots
>fired in a turn were added up and if the total was greater than strength,
>the difference was used as a negative DM to hit.
>
>Mind you there were no rules for excessive recoil, prolly cuz back then
>there were no insane designers like the Commander and Hegebar Spofulam! (TEE
>HEE!)
>
>I would say if a weapon has a single shot recoil of over x2 your strength, a
>formidable roll v. Endurance should be made to avoid injury(take remaining
>recoil points subtracted from STR and distribute evenly over STR DEX and
>END).  At 3x and over its Staggering, at 4x and over Imposible.  The damage
>is the same Recoil-STR so at higher levels it is potentially fatal. If the
>END roll is successful, then only 1/2 damage is inflicted. You WILL get hurt
>firing the "Cricket"!


	Makes sense to me...  Although I tend to use them as a reality
check in the design stage.  If a pistol goes over say 6 recoil, it's time
to start hanging accessories off it :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:20:03 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Who was Heinlein?

Jens Rydholm wrote:

>By the way ...
>
>OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)
>
>Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?
>
>I *do* know Asimov, Gibson and Arthur C Clarke but the rest is vastly
>unexplored terrain for me (I need to do a first survey of SF litterature :-)


	Well, actually, Robert A. Heinlein was one of the most influential
SF writers ever.  I'd rank him right up there with Clarke and Asimov.  He
had a very libertarian view of things, and his work was heavily influenced
(IMHO) by the fact that he got invalided out of the U.S. Navy early on in
WWII.  This led him to take a somewhat (IMHO and YMMV) idealized view of
things military in his writing.  I get the feeling that he never quite got
over it.

	This is most pronounced in Starship Troopers, which is a highly
entertaining read, if you don't mind feeling like you're reading a
recruiting tract :).  It's a case in point of how much influence Heinlein
had on the SF genre; it's where he invented powered armour.  Trav
Battledress was directly inspired by this book.  There are several
wonderful scenes of guys in powered suits causing truly insane mayhem in it.

	Interestingly, ST is also highly revered by some because of the
"philosophy" it espouses.  I'm almost tempted to say that Heinlein must
have been pulling a critical thinking test on his readership with that.
Suffice to say that the political system in the book could very well be
characterized as fascist (and in fact has, by some); personally I wouldn't
go quite that far, but I have major, major problems with it personally.

	ST is currently being made into a movie, slated for release Nov. 7
in the States.  It's caused howls of anguish, due to the fact that the
makers abandoned the powered armour concept in favour of uniforms that look
a Nazi spin on the ones in Aliens.  As well, the fact that the film was
directed by Verhoeven (sp?) the guy who did Robocop and Showgirls, and
whose idea of subtlety was described by someone as "In a scene where a
character gets shot in the head, only have the people onscreen get
splattered with brains"; basically, a lot of fans are worried that the
aforementioned philosophical component of the novel will get badly mangled.

	Personally, from what I've seen on Sony's website, while the action
sequences look like something out of Beau Geste meets the Aliens, they've
managed to put a pretty good spin on the social and political feel of the
book.  I suspect that the movie will be a big, dumb violent Bug Hunt, with
the more authoritarian elements of the philosophical component getting a
lot of attention...

	But honestly, run, do not walk, to your local SF bookstore and try
and find _anything_ by Heinlein.  The vast majority of his stuff is really
good SF.  I find that even his early, "juvenile" novels are still very
readable.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:52:45 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Gloden age SF

>Have you heard of "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the movie due out
>early next month)?
>
>BTW, who's Arthur C. Clarke? :)

If you're interested in Traveller then you should pick up Poul Anderson,
especially the Dominic Flandry and Nicholas Van Rijn books. The Traveller
universe is very similar to the above books especially regarding how
nobles/bureocrats/navy works. A good source for Vargr is "Hunters of the
sky cave".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:30:05 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

> No, you can see a 3d "projection" of a 4d event, just like a drawing or
> picture is a 2d projection of a 3d event.


Right ... but my point is that you are still seeing it in *3d*, not 4d. A
3d "projection" of 4d space is not any more likely to cause mental illness
than any other 3d stimuli.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:30:56 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

> Well, another take on things is the jump makes you 4 dimensional. And
> while around other 3d objects that have been converted you are pretty
> much ok. But just wait until your senses have to deal with *real* 4d
> objects. 
> 
> This gets around the "you can only perceive 3d" bit. :-)


Doh! There goes the jump bubble! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:04:07 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> 
>   >>
> 
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
> 
> Marc

Hey, alright!  Finally a DELAY for a GOOD reason!
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:58:04 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>[snip]
> 
>> Douglas, if you know how a 3G merchant ship can compete with a 1G ship of
>> the same jump rating, feel free to enlighten the rest of us.
> 
>Merchants should be 1G.  I was speaking to all the _other_ nasty,
>unproductive ships that PCs seem to land in (especially those vile scout
>ships).  ;)

A scout ship is 2G, right enough, but you're not going to suggest that any
sane pirate would use a scout ship, are you. Though I suppose a pack of
them could be dangerous...

Anyway, you are right in suggesting that such ships must be added to a ship
registration file, but you are so far off in your estimates that you simply
can't be serious. Let me know if you actually want a detailed refutation.
For the moment I'll just touch the high spots.

>Now, most ships over 200 tons have auxiliary craft.  These also need to
>be tracked (otherwise how could we determine which craft come from out
>of system, as was pointed out to me in an earlier post).

If the auxiliary craft comes from out of system then it has been brought
by a parent ship that is listed in the file. If it comes from in system
then it will be registred locally.
 
>I would add all the various Lab Ships, Couriers, Type J (seekers), but
>they would just be more numbers.

Couriers could run into quite a few ships, I admit, though you're going to
bump against aother parts of canon if you crank it up too much.

>If we are adding military ships
>(necessary I think, how else to verify that they are legitamate) it
>would add considerably to the database, but since I currently disagree
>with the numbers being used, I won't add them in.  I think it would be
>safe to say, however, that it would easily double, and perhaps triple
>the size of the registry.

Oh, I'll grant you a factor 10 increase if you like. Now you need the
data storage of 7,500 PCs....

>However, I believe that this registry has also been postulated to
>contain the Captain and Crew information as well 

Captain. Crew will propably just be listed in the ship's log. Which will
be difficult, but not impossible to tamper with. Anyway, I started by
allocating 10 K to each entry. You can pack quite a lot of information
into 10 K, so before you start to increase the SRF on that basis, you
have to fill up those 10 K.

>Do we include interface shipping (ships from out of the Empire?)

It makes little difference. Ships from out of the Imperium would recieve
a thorough examination in any case. Propably they'll get a temporary
registration.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:33 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Ship Classification: Have you gotten it yet?

<grovel>I apologize most humbly to the list for this...<grovel>

I have sent out the SDS to a few people on the list. One person has
certainly not gotten it -- my mail to him keeps getting bounced. I don't
have his original name, but the email I have is:

rgd@davenportr-g6.bailey.com

If you are this person, please email me and clairfy my stupidity. I
obviously have something incorrect. :)

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:05:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:
<clip>
>nearest decent library and check out his many books and read them. Do it
>now! don't turn off your computer, I'll watch it for you GO! GO! ;-)
>
><shudder> next he'll say "Who is Heinlein?"
>
Followed by "Who is Clarke?" and "Who is Asimov?" (or will this start
an argument <g>?)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:17:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Bulkheads

>>When it comes to hulls, I use a double hulled approach (sometimes tripled
>>on warships).  The inner hull is thin-ish (1 to 2 cm).  The outer hull is
>>the "armor" and is as thick as as you desire.  Between the inner and outer
>>hull is a gap of about 1.5 meters where piping, wiring, AG/CG modules, and
>>other equipment is installed.  Maintenance and Technical staff spend a
>>*lot* of time in the "inter-hull" spaces.
>>
>>Decks are a standard 3.5 meters with 2.5 between floor and overhead in
>>standard spaces.  Between overhead and floor are crawl spaces where control
>>and service conduits are placed and serviced.  In Engineering and Cargo
>>spaces decks are often double high (7 meters) with the overhead exposed for
>>easy access.
>>
>>Just my way of doing things.
>>
>>
>>Eris

If the space between the inner and outer can be depressurized on warships
and the pipings etc are nonessential to combat then the ship would gain
quite a lot of effective armour. When a warhead (KE) or laserblast hits the
outer shell the blast will radiate inwards as a cone of molten/gaseous
metal that will rapidly diminish in penetrative/damaging ability. This was
used on the european space probe that went to Halley so protect from
micrometeorites coming from the comet.

This could be a Star Wars handwave for those solar panel looking wings on
the Impewrial TIE fighters ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:07:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

Justin Durkan writes:
>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
> 
>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the governments 
>for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no
>piracy problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available
>and deployed means that there is a threat that needs a solution.

This would be true if there were no other use for the ships than to suppress
pirates. But these ship are not bought (primarily) to suppress pirates. They
are bought to fight wars and to support the ships that fight wars. And those
ships last a long time. The regular navy seem to keep their ships for about
50 years after which the ships are turned over to the colonial navies, who
get another half century of use out of them.

I suppose that if an empire have had neither wars nor the threat of war nor
piracy for a century then you might see a lessening in its fleet strength.
But don't forget that ships in ordinary lasts a lot longer than a 100 years.
 
>If there were no pirates, the funding of piracy suppression missions
>would be used by much needed other government programs.=20

In areas with no pirates piracy suppression missions are simply fleet
training missions.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2005
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2006



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Jumpspace dementia
RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)
Re: Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Solomani Rim/MMT
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Fleet deployment
Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
.1 C Rocks...
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Why use CORPS?
Re: TRTOOLS v0.95
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
Re: Re: Piracy exists because...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:41:14 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>
> Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  Heinlien's mentor, and originator of many of the
> themes used so often in "classic" space opera (including powered armor, 
> later made famous by Heinlien in _Starship Troopers_ and adopted into
> Traveller as "Battle Dress").  Read the Lensmen Series (_Triplanetary_,
> _First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_, _Second-Stage Lensman_, and _Children of
> the Lens_ if I remember correctly).  If you really like the Lensmen books,
> pick up a copy of _GURPS Lensmen_ from SJG (it's the supplement that made
> me go out and buy GURPS - but then again, I'm a Doc Smith fan).

Lensman seems kind of wierd when you read it, but reading it is,
in my mind, probably like reading the first murder mystery ever 
written. It lacks polish and seems kind of silly in spots, but it is
seminal SF.

> Fred Saberhagen.  _Berzerker_ and subsequent books are recommended if you'd
> like to play in the New Era with Vampire Fleets and all that.  Although the
> writers of T:TNE were unaware of Saberhagen's work (and I believe them, they
> seemed to be pretty unaware of most of Traveller's Hard SF background), the
> Vampires are Pretty Darn Close to Berzerkers in most respects (and IMHO
> Saberhagen does it better).

Shut up! Shut up!!!! That I cannot believe. The person/people who
wrote Vampire Fleets never read any of Saberhagen's stuff? They
are badlife. My decaying-cesium-randomized brain cannot handle this.
I must spend the rest of my existance lumbering from system to system
to kill them.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:47:41 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca> wrote:
>
> I agree with the guy who once posted that looking at jump space doesn't
> drive you crazy, being locked in a cabin the size of a closet for weeks
> with a bunch of ex-military crewmembers and having nothing else *but* jump
> space to look at drives you crazy.

How come nobody has described why people go mad by looking at 
hyperspace in Niven's books? As we see in a parallel thread, some
people may have (somehow) missed reading their Niven. (Think of it like
"eating your vegetables", except a lot more enjoyable).

When you go into Niven's hyperspace, windows looking outside
disappear. It's like a blindspot. Everything else just curves around
and the window is gone. Which can be more than a tad mind-bending
for a lot of folks.

Wasn't it Louis Wu who was forced to go into hyperspace with
the ship's hull completely transparent? The only visible object,
the mass detector, stretched, wrapped around and consumed his
entire 4pi steradians of view. Iiiiieeeeeee.

> On the other hand, maybe naked jump space looks *exactly* like William
> Shatner music videos, reruns of the Police Academy movies, and talk-show
> interviews of Melanie Griffith. That would drive anyone insane.

That's plain sick.
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: GAHUNTER <Gahunter@cris.com>
Subject: RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Douglas wrote:

> Gentlebeings,
> 
> I think we need to establish some basics before the thread erupts into a
> flamewar (which I see building).  Realistically, before we can determine
> if piracy is practical, some of the points that are ...vague, in canon
> need to be addressed.  They are:
> 
> 1) Just how much space traffic is there (both inter- and intra- system)?
> 
> System that I proposed (not a lot of traffic on that thread, can I assume 
> we are in agreement?):
> 
> (World TL*(Pop Code^2)) Ktons per year
> 
> x1.5 if Starport B
> x2 if Starport A
> 
> x2 if the world is AG or is Ri
> x3 if the world has a military base or is a Capital
> x4 if the world is Ind

How about traffic created by the Space Liners to and from "new" vacation
spots within the system... Im pretty sure people are going to go on a 1-2
week excursion to the asteroid belt or a ringed gas-giant if not else just
for the romance it will portray - similar to our ocean liners now...
 
How about private belters who search for there lucky find in the belts...?
It would be similar to the gold rush - unstoppable, but highly profitable
for the belter if they get lucky...

> 2) How good are the various sensor platforms at the various tech levels?
> Conversely, how good are the various stealth platforms at the various
> tech levels?
> 
> Sensor technology appears to be more effective than generally available 
> masking technology.  The main thrust of disagreement remaining seems to be 
> over just how identifiable a given ship will be, if it is attempting to 
> conceal it's true identity, size, etc...
> 
> 3) At what TL can a system support (not build or develop, buy and
> support) a planetary, orbital, and system defense network?  At what TL
> can a system support a planetary, orbital, and system detection network?
> 
> Has not been addressed as yet
> 
> 4) What are the duties of an SDB when the Imperium is not at war.  What
> would a rotation cycle be (ie how long would it be on duty before it
> could stand down for R&R, maintenance, etc)

Even at war a SDB should always be defending the system the reside in ...
Why else would they have been built?

> Has not been addressed as yet
> 
> 5) How involved is the IN in anti-piracy work, or is that the province
> of another department (like the scouts)?  Just how much of the presumed
> 5% of GWP that goes to the military goes to the IN?  How do the
> subsector and planetary forces fit in?
> 
> I think we have determined that the IN is *ahem* very involved.  Just what 
> the budget is seems to still be under debate, tho' it appears most of the 
> list is content with the 5% rule.  What it is used for, and how much the 
> other branches get has not been resolved.

Even if this was an issue - My current campaign involves the Imperium at
war with one or two of its neighbors - this places the naval resources at
the front and not all available to patrol interior aspects of the
Empire... This leaves avenues for pirates to operate more effectively...

> 6) How much of the industrial capacity is reserved for the IN?  What is
> the base TL of the IN, and how does that affect access to the high TL
> shipyards for others?  How easy is it to retrofit high TL items (sensors
> and stealth equipment) onto an existing ship?
> 
> Has not been addressed as yet
> 
> 7) How corruptable are starport officials?  (Both STC and shipyard)
> 
> Appears to be fairly simple, as long as you are careful.
> 
> 8) How easy/difficult is it to forge, alter, create or manipulate ship
> identification, papers, transponders, etc?  What market would there be
> for cargo, starship parts, starships and the like?
> 
> Forging the transponder is difficult to impossible.  Adding additional 
> transponders seems to be the concensus.

Why would the transponder be difficult to forge? Maybe unaccessable but a
ship equipped with modern "tl" workshops and electronic workshops should
be rather easy to forge or change a transponder - what the transponder is
made from some "special" device - even with some sort of safty lock it
could eventually be broken by someone who has the time...

> Ship's registration is under debate.
> 
> Market for ships appears to be somewhat limited.  10-20% value (more if you 
> can get it out of the Empire?).
> 
> I didn't catch whether or not we agreed on standard parts.  The last two 
> posts both supported standardized parts, but one of the posts was mine.  Is 
> this point settled?

I would tend to agree with most people here that starships would most
likely be designed around standard parts - even the custom ones would
include standard engines and other standard parts... 
 
> I know that battle lines in this debate have been drawn.  Let's redraw
> them, or drop the thread.

Guy Hunter
(gahunter@cris.com)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1997 15:24:25 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Aliens Vol 1

CardSharks@aol.com writes:
Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

Marc

- ----

And there was much rejoicing....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:23:25 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>> No, you can see a 3d "projection" of a 4d event, just like a drawing or
>> picture is a 2d projection of a 3d event.
>
>
>Right ... but my point is that you are still seeing it in *3d*, not 4d. A
>3d "projection" of 4d space is not any more likely to cause mental illness
>than any other 3d stimuli.

As your eyes can only see 2D stuff what you see is a 2d projection of a 3d
projection of a 4d thing but thats a nitpick. Why does anybody think that
there's somthing we humans will go mad by looking at? We can generate more
or less anything with any geometry on a computer screen and I don't see
people going mad after looking at abstract computer stuff (well looking at
one too many Techno video while on a mix of alcohol, uppers, downers, glue,
extacy then perhaps...).

BTW Why should jumpspace be 4D? The real world is as we all know a 3d
projection of a 4d thing. We just cannot seem to "see" the 4:th dimension.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:37:21 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

At 10:37 AM 10/24/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> writes:
>
>> <<=20
>>=A0 On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>>=A0 released on Oct. 10th.=A0 Has anyone seen it yet?=20
>>=A0=A0 >>
>>
>> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for=
 the
>> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>

Marc,

Could it have been you test firing the "Noisy Cricket" Plasma pistol
outside the IG building that IG decided to delay  Aliens Vol !.<G>

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon=20
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:17:57 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

At 11:56 AM 10/23/97 -0400, Marc wrote:

>Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

Why do I picture a crazed Marc Miller clutching an ACR and screaming "Do it
right!! or else!!" While standing on Courtney's desk?


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:35:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:53:23 -0500
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

<click...BWOOOM! My own quote vaporized by the Cricket>

>        You know, you could try adding a one-shot derringer-style
>grenade-launcher, a gyroscopic compensator, electronic sights, and a laser
>pointer...  It might just get that recoil down into the realm of sanity,
>and boy would the cricket look cool; "Noisy Cricket on steroids and bad
>acid" :).

Weird, reminds me of the "Urban Assault Weapon" or such in Beverly Hill's 
Cop III.  The one with the Boom Box, Vanity Mirror, and Microwave oven?  Now 
that's Accessorizing! :)

<More Recoil Stuff Vaped>

>        Makes sense to me...  Although I tend to use them as a reality
>check in the design stage.  If a pistol goes over say 6 recoil, it's time
>to start hanging accessories off it :).

Mind you, it wouldn't look very much like a pistol anymore.  I could reduce 
energy to sane levels, but then it would be less effective than a laser or 
regular sidearm.

<Sigh>

Someone else suggested making it a mine.  That would be one hell of a 
"Bouncing Betty"! Using the recoil as a from of propulsion and turning the 
pistol into an explosive or KE penetrator.

Maybe if it was placed as a backup weapon to Battledress, or placed inside a 
shock absorbing cybernetic arm....

Be Afraid....
Be VERY afraid!
 -------------------------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:15:43 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Solomani Rim/MMT

Thanks to all those who replied.  An early draft of the document is
available at

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/solrim_intro.html

It's in Word 97 format, zipped.  Let me know if you require another format.

Go the Dockers!!!!! (just getting in practise for next season)


Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:13:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

At 08:09 PM 10/23/97 -0700, Craig wrote:

>(By the way, I agree with whoever noted that "Ringworld Throne" is a
>clunker.  Also, "Gripping Hand" sucked in a deep and lasting way.  Ah,
>well, even Homer nods. D'oh! :) 

Have to agree as well on these two.. but there was a great scene in
"Gripping Hand" where two of the characters were on Sparta, looking at the
Imperial Palace, and talking about how easy it would be for someone to lob
a nuke at it, when the notice that everyone around them is giving them very
hard looks...

That sounded just too much like most of my Traveller games, so it stuck
with me.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:22:17 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet deployment

At 12:54 PM 10/23/97 -0400, Pete wrote:

>You seem to be assuming that the cost of the navy is equal to the cost of
>its ships.  This is rather simplistic, but there may be a reason for it.
>
>In case there is not; Remember that one of the single larges expenses the
>Imperial Navy will have is salaries and fringe benefits.  This expense will
>be big enough to rival the Capital Shipbuilding budget.

Add in the costs of taking care of the dependants and pensions, recruiting
costs, subsidizing the Naval Academies, all those mid and high passages
used to get personnel from world A to B....

>In addition there are the following budget categories to consider;
>Shipyard maintainence and expense
>Naval Intelligence
>Research and Development (a biggie!)
>Logistics
>etc.

Not to mention the cost of the Naval bureaucracy itself!

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:29:07
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

Hans Racke wrote:

>Paolo, either there is another reason why the Imperium allows civilian
>weapons (basic philosophy perhaps) or we have what is technically known as
>a discrepancy. The interesting thing about two conflicting facts is that
>if you take them in isolation it is imposible to say which one is true
>and which one is false. All you can say is that IF Fact A is right then
>Fact B is wrong. What you ignore is that IF Fact B is right the it is
>Fact A that is wrong.

Ok, my original purpose was to supply some more ammo to the
pro-piracy camp, and I have no problems conceding that what I
stated is not a "proof" in any formal sense.

The Piracy Thread (which I've collected) is getting near the megabyte
in volume. It spawned many interesting subthemes, but I think we can
basically sum up the arguments as follows:

Pro Piracy
- ----------
A) It exists in canonical sources, and seems to be quite common
(armed starships, pirate career, encounter tables, ""various
published adventures).

B) Many of the counterproofs, even if more "realistic" would remove a
lot of adventuring possibilities (realistic sensors, ship registers).
{Even if apparently spurious, this second argument is quite strong,
 IMHO, considering we are talking about a RPG. Many people in the past
 pointed out that gravitics+fusion would probably remove the need for
 conventional mining, the TL differences are implausible and so on...}

Against Piracy
- --------------
A) Very difficult to do (again, this is mostly due to sensors and how
the various weapons work).

B) Not very profitable, considering that you can always sell the ship
and retire, instead of risking life and limb as a pirate. {This is
quite difficult to dispute, perhaps pirates mental faculties declined
after having looked at the Jumpspace...}

C) Trivially easy to stamp out. This is a by-product of (A)+(B): with
realistic sensors hiding becomes difficult, and the cost of military
ships is too low compared to the cost of civilian ones, so it becomes
really easy to justify anti-piracy deployment.


I'm considering this as a GM. It is much easier (for me) to decide
that military starships cost much more than civilian ones, and
therefore they are much scarcer than what suggested by Hans'
analysis. If I had to run a PE (or other high level) game, I could be
forced to change my assumptions.
PC's usually deal in civilian starships, so they shouldn't be too
concerned about military budgets.

So, in case you are still tallying votes on the issue, I say that
Piracy exists and continues to be a threat for the Imperium. I
resolve the discrepancy by multiplying costs for military ships by a
factor of 10 or more, because it is less damaging for my style of
play then eliminating piracy.

Here is what I've decided to do:

1) Multiply military equipment costs by 15. 

2) The strict rulings about identifying your ship and close control by
spaceport authorities and SDB patrols will be effectively enforced
only in systems were a Navy base is present.

3) About sensors, I'll probably stick with (admittedly unrealistic) CT
ranges and justify this with various handwaves.

This is all IMTU/IMHO, obviously, and I'm not implying that the
anti-piracy party is wrong (quite the contrary, in fact); what I'm
trying to say is that if you want to run an high level campaign (were
players deal with planet sized budgets) you should probably consider
PE, HG and other similar sources as more "canonical", while for
individual-level campaign I strongly suggest going for less
realistic/consistent interpretations. This is a pity, but I think
that we will have to just live with it: I can't think of anything all large
work of fiction (Star Trek, Star Wars, Traveller...) do suffer from
internal consistency problems 

To sum it up: the anti-piracy issues are quite valid, and I'm
convinced that the discrepancy exist. I don't intend to dispute your
points; I deliberately decide to ignore them for dramatic purposes. 

I thank everybody who pointed this out (especially Hans) and all the
people who took part in the discussion: without your insight, this
problem would probably have manifested right in the middle of an
adventure (as it usual happens when consistency is involved...)



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:33:39 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: .1 C Rocks...

Look out everyone

The current issue of Naval Institute's Proceedings has a very interesting
story about using orbital kinetic-kill weapons as weapons against surface
ships.  The article gives a very good description of the orbital and
targetting dynamics involved, and gives a great description of the effects
of using one of the old 16" guns from the Iowa-class battleships as an
orbital weapon system.

This would be a slightly different approach than the old THOR flying
crowbar system that was propopsed back in the late 70s.  The THOR system
was similar to the MLRS in concept; blanket an area with numerous hits from
smaller weapons to wipe out a target.  The magazine article proposes a
single, larger device that would deliver a devastating punch, or that could
"calve" into multiple smaller weapons.

A little something to annoy those pesky Battle Dress PCs when they are
trying to seize control of a TL8 planet.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:44:02 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

Hal Clement
Poul Anderson
Greg Bear
David Brin
Connie Willis
Anne McCaffery
Harry Turtledove
Charles Sheffield
John Barnes

Well, I think we've killed his reading budget for the next year....
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:39:11 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

At 08:33 PM 10/23/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Robert Heinlein is one of the all-time greats ...from his early days as a
>'Golden Age' pulp writer to his later, far more complex novels.

<snip>

>Ahhh, what else? Joe Haldeman's The Forever War is a wrenching look at
>what war in a relatavistic universe would be like.

Great story about these two...

At the 1976 Nebula awards, Heinlein was to be award the first Grand Master
award.  Also present was Joe Haldeman, whose "Forever War had just won the
Hugo for Best Novel, and was nominated for a Nebula.  Everyone was waiting
for Heinlein to rip into Haldeman for ripping off Starship Troopers and
writing a very anti-war book (for those who do not know, Joe Haldeman is
Vietnam vet who was wounded several times).

Heinlein shows up, and is moving down the reception line with Jim Baen, who
is introducing many of the younger writers.

Baen: "and this is Joe Haldeman, author of.."
Heinlein: "..the Forever War!" he steps forward and begins pumping Joe's
hand vigorously, "Wonderful book, best military science fiction I've *ever*
read!"

Haldeman swears his feet didn't touch ground for weeks afterwards..

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:52:22 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Why use CORPS?

At 09:35 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Scott wrote:

>>Point-based is the only way to go, but there's nothing to say that you
>>can't have unbalanced characters.
>
>Gotta disagree on the point based systems being the only way to go. 

I think you misunderstood me, I was refering specifically to CORPS when I
made that statement.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS v0.95

Dear Michael,

     It seems my web browser can't retrieve the URL you posted in your
message...good old AOL!  Could you possibly consider emailing me TRTools?  I
would really appreciate it!

Thanks very much,
Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:59:58 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Oh, I'll grant you a factor 10 increase if you like. Now you need the
> data storage of 7,500 PCs....

We are not talking about a computer that has the data storage of 7,500
PCs, we are talking about a _single_database_ that requires (this is
your number, not mine) 7.5 Terabytes of storage.  (7500 GB = 7.5 TB)

Again, a .1% change rate (ridiculously low) puts 7.5 GB of change data
in process at any given time.  Any single hacker who manages to access
the database can insert add/remove/change data that will propogate
faster than it can be corrected, assuming that it is detected.

Finally, why would a cruiser squadron in Glimmern Deep need Corridor
ship data?

Keep the information local, and updated locally.  It makes more sense.
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:09:53 +0100
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: Re: Re: Piracy exists because...

Hans Rancke writes:

>>>
This would be true if there were no other use for the ships than to suppress
pirates. But these ship are not bought (primarily) to suppress pirates. They
are bought to fight wars and to support the ships that fight wars. And those
ships last a long time. The regular navy seem to keep their ships for about
50 years after which the ships are turned over to the colonial navies, who
get another half century of use out of them.
<<<

The operation of naval vessels in this century, in the defense mode, occur
in regions that do not interfere significantly with merchant traffic.
Maneouvres occur in the mid ocean away from prying eyes, or blatantly just
off an agressors coast in order to impress on that countries ruling powers.
This is the case during peacetime. I accept that a war-footing is different.

Given the vastness of space and the constant training for warfare with which
the IN is occupied, would not the same be true? This implies that the ships
allocated to piracy suppression are essentially the only ones on the job.
The others are on maneouves, or "at the front" or at strategic posts, or
providing a backdrop to some noble's birthday party or wherever. They are
otherwise busy elsewhere is my point.

The argument that all military activity is funded and thus allocated duty
accordingly forces the argument. If there is a threat, the threat is dealt
with within the budget constraints. If there is no threat, the allocations
go elsewhere.

Even with the most liberal use of the numbers, there is not an infinity of
ships. This means they are allocated as required by people making value
judgements with all the fallibility that that entails. If a fleet commander
decides he needs his armada to suppress piracy, then locally there will be a
vastly reduced incident of piracy. Any that does occur will definately be
enacted with guile and intelligence rather than "swashbuckling". The
commander will have to continually justify the use of these deployments to
his paymasters. They will accept as long as they percieve a plus on the
cost-benefit analysis. After that the ships are assigned to escort duty,
entertainment duty, "air show" duty, front-line duty or some other "more
important" duty.

All this is true even with thousands of ships per subsector. Someone
somewhere decided there deployment on the basis of their perceptions of the
fleet requirements. And remember, their perceptions are probably more
corruptable than anyone else.

Slan Leat
Justin Durkan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2006
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2007



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

SpaceDev (world's 1st asteroid mining company)
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Question for all you Referees
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Definition: Grav Compensator
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Piracy recap (2 pps)
Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))
Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))
Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2
Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: SpaceDev (world's 1st asteroid mining company)

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I thought a
few of you might be interested in checking out:

http://spacedev.com

homepage of "the world's first commercial space
exploration company", really an asteroid
prospecting company from the looks of it...
if nothing else, it should be interesting to
watch and see what happens with them.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 18:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

In-Reply-To: <971023115055_504733232@emout01.mail.aol.com>

>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>  
> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>  
> Marc

Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:16 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Question for all you Referees

Welcome to my campaign pickle.

Comments and suggestions are requested!

The players escaped imminent doom by hijacking an
Arkesh Secure Trader (200t, 2 laser batteries).
It's got some internal wall damage, especially 
to the bridge (door blown open).

They are in the Vilis subsector of the Spinward
Marches, ca. year 1020.

They want to sell this ship which is not theirs.
They plan to forge ship's papers (which is fine
by me, if they can find the forms and people to
bribe).  In the lead archaeologist's own words, 
here's the options they're thinking about:

- --------------------------------------------------

Jump to Quare, sell/trade ship for a jump-2 (or better 
jump-3) ship.  (Perhaps just sell it, and purchase a new 
ship at Frenzie.  Anyone able to tell me anything about 
the Federation of Arden worlds?)

Alternatives:

1. Sell the ship in Frenzie, hoping the Navy/starport 
   authorities don't care that the paperwork may be forged, 
   since it's an Arkesh ship.

2. Try to sell the ship in Hrunting or Mjolnir, or the Sword 
   Worlds.  (Anyone able to tell me anything about the Sword 
   Worlds?)  This would require travel through Villis, which 
   Smudge want's to avoid at all costs, due to the possibility 
   of Darrian technology being at Villis and being able to 
   revive the Baron.

- ----------------------------------------------------

Oh yes, a minor noble in the group killed a Regina Baron,
and wants him to remain dead (he's only mostly dead?).
This caused a bit of upset in the group.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:20:26 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

At 10:47 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>When you go into Niven's hyperspace, windows looking outside
>disappear. It's like a blindspot. Everything else just curves around
>and the window is gone. Which can be more than a tad mind-bending
>for a lot of folks.
>
>Wasn't it Louis Wu who was forced to go into hyperspace with
>the ship's hull completely transparent? The only visible object,
>the mass detector, stretched, wrapped around and consumed his
>entire 4pi steradians of view. Iiiiieeeeeee.

Beowulf Schaffer in "Elephant."  The hull wasn't transparent, it was *gone*.

The best bit of advice Bey gave his companion was "don't look up."

>> On the other hand, maybe naked jump space looks *exactly* like William
>> Shatner music videos, reruns of the Police Academy movies, and talk-show
>> interviews of Melanie Griffith. That would drive anyone insane.
>
>That's plain sick.

At the risk of being Thwacked by my wife, looking into jumpspace is like
being trapped at VH1's Storytellers, Barry Manilow for all eternity...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:08:14 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Definition: Grav Compensator

>> The 3 Gs of a TL 12 grav compensator can only counteract 2 Gs while
>> providing a 1 G artificial gravity. In my campaign the thrust axis of most
>> ships are perpendicular to the ship decks (90 degrees to what is usually
>> show in Traveller deck plans, in Star Trek, and in ocean-going ships). This
>> is necessary so that ships can accelerate safely at 1 G above the
>> compensated acceleration, as shown in SSDS. The 1 G left over is what holds
>> them down. Ships that have decks parallel to the thrust axis can only
>> accelerate up to their G compensation, and when they do that the inside of
>> the ship is at zero G! Comments?

Glenn Hoppe writes:
>
>There was a *big* discussion about this last year. I don't want to
>rehash it again. Suffice it to say you are right, but there are *some*
>advantages to putting the decks the way most Traveller plans and ST
>have.

Could you post an executive summary? What possible advantage could there be
to making decks parallel to the thrust axis?

>> The reason this came up in my campaign is that the players asked if the
>> compensator could affect things outside the ship's hull. Specifically, they
>> wanted to tug a derelict ship by "grabbing" it with the G compensator. I
>> said no, that the compensator can't penetrate the ship's hull, but couldn't
>> give a good reason why it is able to penetrate things like bulkheads, cargo
>> containers, or battle dress. Can anybody help me out?
>
>The most elegant handwave I've seen kicked around is that grav
>compensation and artificial gravity is a "field effect". That is, it
>only affects the area between the floor and the ceiling. The floor acts
>as one "pole", and the ceiling the other. If one or the other isn't
>operating you get nada.
>
>That's why it doesn't penetrate the hull, but everything else between
>the floor and ceiling is affected.

Brilliant! It works and *sounds* good. Thanks.

>I handwave compensation as being provided by a mechanism different from
>artificial gravity. Compensation can only do just that: compensate for
>inertial forces. Cancel 'em. You can't create a new force to "push" the
>container out the door. You can only cancel (to a limit) G's pulled in
>the lateral/vertical direction.

Well, FF&S specifically states on page 78 that the same G compensators that
eliminate inertial effects also provide environmental gravity. Also the
SSDS shows "artificial gravity/inertial compensators" as single units. Even
if you assume G comp can't push a container, you have postulated a new
"artificial gravity" effect that can. Why not use artificial gravity to
push the container out the door?

Moreover, there are no rules for separate artificial gravity generators.
This situation leads to referees making mistakes and players abusing the
rules. I think I am much safer declaring that G comp must both reduce
inertial and provide artificial gravity.

Whether one can push with G comp or artificial gravity, we still need a
reason why it isn't used to move cargo.

Jim Heivilin writes:

>I would think the field generators would be mounted in the floor (the
>ones to create the 1G of artificial gravity) or they would have
>projectors mounted there (more likely and less 'overhead' of
>equipment). So if they wanted to rip up the decking to get the grav
>compensators out, rewire them for power and control and mount them
>someplace to point them at the derelict they could do that.

First of all, my ship's decks are perpendicular to the thrust axis (think
of a building with the engines in the basement). The players wanted to
maneuver the nose of the ship against the derelict, so the compensators
were already pointing at it. Crewmembers on the top deck are held in place
by the G compensators, so why not the derelict's hull, which was
effectively on the ceiling of the top deck. Glenn's answer explains why it
wouldn't work; the artificial gravity ends at the ceiling.

Secondly, if one could simply remount the grav compensators and point them
out the ship to affect outside objects, this would effectively give you
tractor/pressor beams at TL 10. This is so useful it would be a standard
fixture of cargo ships. Glenn's answer explains this one too; since you
need both a floor and ceiling the only way this would work is if you built
a hold or deck large enough to contain the entire derelict inside.

>In fact to while away time in jump space on
>trip one of our guys designed a voice activated control module to
>allow us to vary the gravity if we get boarded again.  6Gs in the
>corridor or cargo bay will slow down most people.

I said before that making artificial gravity not follow the rule for G
compensation will lead to mistakes in the game. I think this is an example.
Where do the "6Gs" come from? If it's just pulled out of thin air why not
60 Gs or 6000? If you can provide so many Gs of artificial gravity, why not
mount A-grav plates on the ceiling, engines on the floor, and safely
accelerate your ship to 6 Gs as well? If there are no rules for this kind
of thing a referee can make any ruling he wants and regret it later.

In my campaign a G compensator can damp inertial or provide artificial
gravity interchangeably. So if you have a 3 G compensator you can
counteract up to 3 Gs of acceleration or provide up to 3 Gs of artificial
gravity, but not both. And cranking the ship's gravity to 3 Gs leaves you
with no inertia compensation. This provides rules for the referee to make
decisions in and means the players actually have to consider the effects of
their actions.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

In a message dated 97-10-23 19:54:14 EDT, dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Larry Niven is one of the greatest SF writers ever to walk the Earth.
 Run,
 do not walk, to your bookstore and pick up the following: >>


And while your at it, don't forget to read the following ones (co-authored by
Jerry Pournelle):

The Mote in Gods Eye
The Gripping hand

These two books explore a different side of sci-fi...instead of the
traditional aliens race arrives from outer space and has to decide wether or
not to allow humans into space, the situation is reversed.  The humans have
the first contact, and must make the decision, on some very scanty info.
 Excellent books, and the idea of the human empire in them (the Empire of
Man) is one of the best I have seen.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:30:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy recap (2 pps)

>if piracy is practical, some of the points that are ...vague, in canon
>need to be addressed.  They are:

>3) At what TL can a system support (not build or develop, buy and
>support) a planetary, orbital, and system defense network?  At what TL
>can a system support a planetary, orbital, and system detection network?

  Highly variable. DA6 (?), Divine Intervention, has a society without
the TL to support a floating palace supported by angels, but the same
imported hardware would provide point defense for their jump limit.

>4) What are the duties of an SDB when the Imperium is not at war.  What
>would a rotation cycle be (ie how long would it be on duty before it
>could stand down for R&R, maintenance, etc)

  Depends on whether their support is at the homeworld, or whether ships
deliver relief crews every 3 or 6 months (or whatever).

>5) How involved is the IN in anti-piracy work, or is that the province
>of another department (like the scouts)?  Just how much of the presumed
>5% of GWP that goes to the military goes to the IN?  How do the
>subsector and planetary forces fit in?

  I'd suggest 5% is too high as an average, but the loading of virtually
every expense except welfare for unwed fathers onto that budget seems 
hard to justify given the nature of the IN's hardware.

>6) How much of the industrial capacity is reserved for the IN?  What is
>the base TL of the IN, and how does that affect access to the high TL
>shipyards for others?  How easy is it to retrofit high TL items (sensors
>and stealth equipment) onto an existing ship?

  Very good question. IN likely has first call on construction capacity.
If retrofitting is easy, we return to the "patchwork ship" with imported
TL 9 components where possible (at least in HG).

>7) How corruptable are starport officials?  (Both STC and shipyard)

  Refs fiat. If the local authorities shoot corrupt officials who are
otherwise well-paid...  And is there a camera or recorder in your office?

>8) How easy/difficult is it to forge, alter, create or manipulate ship
>identification, papers, transponders, etc?  What market would there be
>for cargo, starship parts, starships and the like?
>Forging the transponder is difficult to impossible.  Adding additional 
>transponders seems to be the concensus.
>Ship's registration is under debate.

  Again, a ref with a 1984 frame of mind can make it very nearly literally 
impossible. Your "tamper-proof" black box indicates that your transponder
wasn't sending? Die-traitor!. IMO, rather extreme. But effective registration
and enforcement must exist, otherwise anyone can simply skip on their payments.
One problem is that some piracy posts assume that any effective limitation
on such activities is highly improbable at best.

>Market for ships appears to be somewhat limited.  10-20% value (more if you 
                                                    ^^^    
  At least, IMO. With patience, you'll get it to sale. Not strictly valid
deep within (more than a few sub-sectors) the Imperium.

>I didn't catch whether or not we agreed on standard parts.  The last two 
>posts both supported standardized parts, but one of the posts was mine.  Is 
>this point settled?

  I'd like to use them, but will a Type S and a Type R have a large commonality
of parts? Not hull plates, OC, but electronics modules, drive componenents, etc?

 N+1) What is the rough performance envelope for the most common pirate vessel?
Drives, fuel, cargo, weapons, firecon/sensors (if applicable), etc. Where is
it from?
                Yours truly,
                        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:36:33 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))

>This is a partial list of Science Fiction Authors I have read and enjoyed.
>I'm *sure* I'm missing many good authors, but my TML friends will help me
>complete it.

Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
familiar with? The ten most ESSENTIAL authors on this list (not necessarily
as far as Traveller is concerned, although perhaps that would make another
good Top-10 list...)


My ten would be:

Asimov, Issac
Bradbury, Ray
Clarke, Arthur C
Dick, Philip
Heinlein, Robert Anson
Herbert, Frank
LeGuin, Ursula
Niven, Larry
Silverberg, Robert
Vonnegut, Kurt

(Sorry to reprint the entire list again, but since this could be starting a
new thread, I thought it should be handy to all)

John K.


>- -A-
> Anderson, Poul
> Anvil, Chris
> Asimov, Issac
>
>- -B-
> Ballard, J G
> Benford, Gregory
> Bester, Alfred
> Blish, James
> Bova, Ben
> Bradbury, Ray
> Bradley, Marion Zimmer
> Brin, David
> Brown, Fredric
> Brunner, John
> Bujold, Lois
> Busby, F M
>
>- -C-
> Card, Orson Scott
> Chandler, A Bertrum
> Cherryh, C J
> Clarke, Arthur C
> Clement, Hal
>
>- -D-
> Dalmas, John
> De Camp, L Sprague
> Del Rey, Lester
> Delany, Samuel
> Dick, Philip
> Dickson, Gordon
> Drake, David
>
>- -E-
> Ellison, Harlen
>
>- -F-
> Farmer, Philip Jose
> Flynn, Michael
> Forward, Robert
> Foster, Alan Dean
> Frank, Pat
>
>- -G-
> Garrett, Randall
> Gunn, James
>
>- -H-
> Haldeman, Joe
> Heinlein, Robert Anson
> Herbert, Frank
> Hogan, James
>
>- -I-
> Ing, Dean
>
>- -J-
>
>- -K-
> Kornbluth, Cyril M
>
>- -L-
> Laumer, Keith
> LeGuin, Ursula
> Leiber, Fritz
> Leister, Murry
> Lem, Stanislaw
>
>- -M-
> McCaffery, Anne
> Miller, Walter
> Morris, Janet
>
>- -N-
> Niven, Larry
> Norton, Andre
> Norse, Robert
>
>- -O-
> O'Donnell, Kevin
>
>- -P-
> Pangborn, Edgar
> Padgett, Lewis
> Piper, H Beam
> Pohl, Fred
> Pournelle, Jerry
>
>- -Q-
>
>- -R-
> Reynolds, Mark
> Robinson, Spider
>
>- -S-
> Saberhagen, Fred
> Sargent, Pamela
> Schimitz, James
> Sheffeld, Charles
> Silverberg, Robert
> Simak, Clifford
> Smith, Doc
> Smith, George O
> Spinrad, Norman
> Sturgeon, Theodore
>
>- -T-
> Turtledove, Robert
>
>- -U-
>
>- -V-
> Vance, Jack
> Van Vogt, A E
> Vinge, Joan
> Vinge, Vinner
Vonnegut, Kurt
>
>- -W-
> Watson, Ian
> Weber, David
> White, James
> Wollheim, Donald
>
>- -X-
>
>- -Y-
>
>- -Z-
> Zahn, Timothy
> Zelazny, Roger

I've added Kurt Vonnegut to the list, since (no matter what he says), I
think his early stuff in particular should be included.



**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:36:33 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))

>This is a partial list of Science Fiction Authors I have read and enjoyed.
>I'm *sure* I'm missing many good authors, but my TML friends will help me
>complete it.

Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
familiar with? The ten most ESSENTIAL authors on this list (not necessarily
as far as Traveller is concerned, although perhaps that would make another
good Top-10 list...)


My ten would be:

Asimov, Issac
Bradbury, Ray
Clarke, Arthur C
Dick, Philip
Heinlein, Robert Anson
Herbert, Frank
LeGuin, Ursula
Niven, Larry
Silverberg, Robert
Vonnegut, Kurt

(Sorry to reprint the entire list again, but since this could be starting a
new thread, I thought it should be handy to all)

John K.


>- -A-
> Anderson, Poul
> Anvil, Chris
> Asimov, Issac
>
>- -B-
> Ballard, J G
> Benford, Gregory
> Bester, Alfred
> Blish, James
> Bova, Ben
> Bradbury, Ray
> Bradley, Marion Zimmer
> Brin, David
> Brown, Fredric
> Brunner, John
> Bujold, Lois
> Busby, F M
>
>- -C-
> Card, Orson Scott
> Chandler, A Bertrum
> Cherryh, C J
> Clarke, Arthur C
> Clement, Hal
>
>- -D-
> Dalmas, John
> De Camp, L Sprague
> Del Rey, Lester
> Delany, Samuel
> Dick, Philip
> Dickson, Gordon
> Drake, David
>
>- -E-
> Ellison, Harlen
>
>- -F-
> Farmer, Philip Jose
> Flynn, Michael
> Forward, Robert
> Foster, Alan Dean
> Frank, Pat
>
>- -G-
> Garrett, Randall
> Gunn, James
>
>- -H-
> Haldeman, Joe
> Heinlein, Robert Anson
> Herbert, Frank
> Hogan, James
>
>- -I-
> Ing, Dean
>
>- -J-
>
>- -K-
> Kornbluth, Cyril M
>
>- -L-
> Laumer, Keith
> LeGuin, Ursula
> Leiber, Fritz
> Leister, Murry
> Lem, Stanislaw
>
>- -M-
> McCaffery, Anne
> Miller, Walter
> Morris, Janet
>
>- -N-
> Niven, Larry
> Norton, Andre
> Norse, Robert
>
>- -O-
> O'Donnell, Kevin
>
>- -P-
> Pangborn, Edgar
> Padgett, Lewis
> Piper, H Beam
> Pohl, Fred
> Pournelle, Jerry
>
>- -Q-
>
>- -R-
> Reynolds, Mark
> Robinson, Spider
>
>- -S-
> Saberhagen, Fred
> Sargent, Pamela
> Schimitz, James
> Sheffeld, Charles
> Silverberg, Robert
> Simak, Clifford
> Smith, Doc
> Smith, George O
> Spinrad, Norman
> Sturgeon, Theodore
>
>- -T-
> Turtledove, Robert
>
>- -U-
>
>- -V-
> Vance, Jack
> Van Vogt, A E
> Vinge, Joan
> Vinge, Vinner
Vonnegut, Kurt
>
>- -W-
> Watson, Ian
> Weber, David
> White, James
> Wollheim, Donald
>
>- -X-
>
>- -Y-
>
>- -Z-
> Zahn, Timothy
> Zelazny, Roger

I've added Kurt Vonnegut to the list, since (no matter what he says), I
think his early stuff in particular should be included.



**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:47:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2

In a message dated 97-10-24 07:50:30 EDT, marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
writes:

<< This means that the Imperium admits that Piracy is always possible. If
this
 was not the case, nobody could have weapons/armor/sandcaster on his ship. >>

I think this is a valid point...remember the requirement that any ship with a
mail contract must be armed and have a gunner on board when carrying mail?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed Pirate, part 2

In a message dated 97-10-24 07:50:30 EDT, marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
writes:

<< This means that the Imperium admits that Piracy is always possible. If
this
 was not the case, nobody could have weapons/armor/sandcaster on his ship. >>

I think this is a valid point...remember the requirement that any ship with a
mail contract must be armed and have a gunner on board when carrying mail?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2007
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2008



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother
Sci-Fi Authors
Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)
Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother
Re: Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?
Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
Re: Why use CORPS?
B5
Re:  Ten Essential Authors
Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
Re: Traveller Reading Material

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:31:10 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

Marc wrote,
> << 
>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
> >>
> 
> Marc has gotten in the way by insisting that the charts for chargen
> for the aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

Excellent!  Keep on getting in the way whenever necessary... 8-)
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother

At 04:37 PM 10/20/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Paul D. Owensby writes:
>>b) there ain't no friggin way the Imperium is going to be able to keep up
>>to date records on every 40 and 50 year old freighter on a subsector-
>>wide basis, not to mention a sector-wide database,
>
>Why would it be any more difficult than, say, keeping a record of all cars
>in the US? As for keeping it up to date, when a ship moves from one end of
>the Imperium, it moves at jump-1, 2, or 3. Information about it would move
>at jump-4 or better. The records of a world with very little traffic would
>be less than up-to-date, granted, and it would be possible to outrun your
>data if you go to such a world, but that just means that you merit extra
>attention from the patrol there. And if the traffic is so low, they will
>have time for you.
>
>It's not that not appearing on the list will be any particular hardship
>for any ship with its papers in order, it's that such a ship is suspicious
>and can expect more than cursory attention.
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>
        While I have nothing but my thoroughly unenjoyable 4 years
        as a member of Uncle Sugar's military establishment to use
        as evidence, I doubt that there is any single governmental
        group in this country that could provide an accurate record
        of the location and ownership of all the cars in this 
        country. I doubt that you could find such a group for
        just the "first-owner" cars much less the millions of used
        cars in this country. The city I live in can't even discover
        the identities of the owners of the abandoned cars that are
        left on the streets. I doubt that an empire with a standard
        crossing time of better than a year could even keep track
        of the locally owned stuff.

	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:17:33 -0400
From: Martin Laurie <MLaurie@compuserve.com>
Subject: Sci-Fi Authors

A good read for a digressed Long night society is S.M.Stirlings
"The General" series.  He has also done a lot of work with David
Drake and Pournelle on things like "Go Tell the Spartans" and
others.

His "Marching Through Georgia" Books are amusingly daft too.

Heinlein was great until I read "Number of the Beast" and now
I refuse to read him because anyone who can write a book so =
tedious, silly, pointless, inane and character driven should
be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

As for Verhoeven directing Starship Troopers, I'm glad, the guy
is great for violence and frankly a good slaughterfest with loads
of aliens getting blasted is what I'm in need of right now to cheer
me up.

Hey, any guy who gave his excuse for directing the dire "Showgirls" =
as "I just wanted to do a movie with tits in it" is okay by me.

Martin Laurie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:13:31 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)

GAHUNTER wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Douglas wrote:
> 
> > Gentlebeings,
> >
> > I think we need to establish some basics before the thread erupts into a
> > flamewar (which I see building).  Realistically, before we can determine
> > if piracy is practical, some of the points that are ...vague, in canon
> > need to be addressed.  They are:
> >
> > 1) Just how much space traffic is there (both inter- and intra- system)?
> >

[snip]

> How about traffic created by the Space Liners to and from "new" vacation
> spots within the system... Im pretty sure people are going to go on a 1-2
> week excursion to the asteroid belt or a ringed gas-giant if not else just
> for the romance it will portray - similar to our ocean liners now...
> 
> How about private belters who search for there lucky find in the belts...?
> It would be similar to the gold rush - unstoppable, but highly profitable
> for the belter if they get lucky...

I was attempting to create a baseline of traffic for a system.  Of
course local variables (outside the norm) should be administered by the
GM according to his specific campaign.

[snip]

> > 4) What are the duties of an SDB when the Imperium is not at war.  What
> > would a rotation cycle be (ie how long would it be on duty before it
> > could stand down for R&R, maintenance, etc)
> 
> Even at war a SDB should always be defending the system the reside in ...
> Why else would they have been built?

SDBs are unable to leave their system, essentially trapped.  If an
invasion force has accurate intelligence on the numbers and disposition
of the SDB force, it can not only determine the correct invasion
strength, but also will be able to determine the strength of the
occupation force that will be required after the system is suppressed.

If SDBs are routinely used in anti-piracy/customs patrols, then the
opportunity to gather that intelligence abounds.

If the entire force is not used, what percentage is needed to maintain
an adequate A/piracy presence?  There have been a number of claims that
a single SDB can supress piracy for a single world.  If that is done,
are we rotating crews?  What is the schedule?  When is maintenance
performed?  If more than one is used, what is the patrol schedule?  If a
Signal GK is received, does the off-duty SDB scramble to cover the ready
position?  If a Signal GK is received outside the 100 D limit, does the
planetary SDB respond, or is there a separate command structure for
interplanetary space.

Finally, is this a unified command, or is it fragmented.  And is a
single model applied to all worlds, or does each system have it's own
structure?

This does not even touch on the deployment of SDBs to systems that can
not support them.  (And which I vehemently disagree with)

[snip]
 
> > 8) How easy/difficult is it to forge, alter, create or manipulate ship
> > identification, papers, transponders, etc?  What market would there be
> > for cargo, starship parts, starships and the like?
> >
> > Forging the transponder is difficult to impossible.  Adding additional
> > transponders seems to be the concensus.
> 
> Why would the transponder be difficult to forge? Maybe unaccessable but a
> ship equipped with modern "tl" workshops and electronic workshops should
> be rather easy to forge or change a transponder - what the transponder is
> made from some "special" device - even with some sort of safty lock it
> could eventually be broken by someone who has the time...

If you accept the MT version of a transponder, they are impossible to
duplicate.  Otherwise, they are merely difficult.
However, as a transponder check would be part of an Imperial 'Health and
Welfare' naval inspection, it is in your best interests not to have
touched the box...

[snip]

> >
> > I didn't catch whether or not we agreed on standard parts.  The last two
> > posts both supported standardized parts, but one of the posts was mine.  Is
> > this point settled?
> 
> I would tend to agree with most people here that starships would most
> likely be designed around standard parts - even the custom ones would
> include standard engines and other standard parts...

I'm not sure I understand your position.  Are you for or against
standardization?

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother

At 03:57 PM 10/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>This post is intended to be vaguely humorous, so no flames please...
>
>Just wanted to add my two-penn'th to "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>:
>
>>I am forced to go along with those who do not believe that the Imperium
>>would be able to act as efficiently as having a complete registry of every
>>ship flying available to every commander of every podunk little SDB...
>
><BEGIN SUPER-RANT MODE>
>
>I'm not saying one should totally throw away the 'canon' sources which quote
>the % GWP spent on the navy, etc., but I think any future *human-based*
>space empire will suffer exactly the same problems that any government
>suffers now, here on Earth. To take no country in particular as an example,
>why don't we have enough police solving crimes, cracking down on cars with
>no tax disks, detecting stolen cars by radio tracking systems fitted to
>every engine block, etc., etc., etc.? It's not because there isn't enough
>money in the system, it's because 99% of the money is spent inefficiently. A
>lot of money gets spent on the government themselves who, after all, have to
>live in posh houses, run things from grandious buildings, and attend regular
>drinks receptions at foreign embassies. Then there's all the administration
>who have to work out how to spend the money they've got. Then there are all
>the committees (we like to call them quangos - basically an excuse to sound
>important and run up huge expense accounts while making sure that your
>personal friends get government contracts...) between the top administrators
>and the actual cops on the street. Then there's all the costs and time
>involved in all the paperwork, the general laziness of certain human
>individuals, the "I don't want to go after this criminal because he might
>actually shoot me", and the wedgeloads of cash shovelled into the gaping
>wallets of the law system in order to take cases to court and then acquit
>the defendants because some police officer mispronounced their rights when
>arresting them.
>
>(Ok, so I'm taking things to extremes here!) :-)
>
>Take a look at the world around us, and then see whether there is any real
>common sense to saying X % naval budget buys Y ships which is guaranteed to
>stop piracy because it can cover Z cubic kilometres of space.
>
>GET REAL! :-)
>
>And how important is piracy to the average citizen? I think it can be viewed
>as a combination of perceived direct importance ("I'm going on this merchant
>ship, let's hope it doesn't get attacked") and manipulated media importance
>("Shock Horror Front Page News: Pirate Strikes At Heart of Imperium; Emperor
>Called to Task in Senate!"). Right, now think GOLDFISH. That's right, about
>10 seconds of memory - that's how long these problems remain relevant to
>your average citizen.
>
>So how likely do you think it is that, upon hearing of an outbreak of
>piracy, the citizens will stomp up even an extra 0.1% of taxes to alleviate
>the problem? ZERO PERCENT CHANCE. The navy will complain that they are
>overburdened with customs duties and lack of maintenance on their ships
>(they have enough ships really, but it seems like a good ploy to divert some
>of next year's budget away from their direct competition, i.e. the army).
>The government will say that it's a very serious matter and that they will
>immediately set up a committee to decide upon the best date, and
>representation for a committee to look into the food which ought to be
>served to a committee looking into the possibility that the pirate attacks
>are racially motivated. i.e. they will blither, in the hopes that things
>will blow over, as there's an election coming up and they can't raise taxes
>(and they are most certainly not going to redirect taxes from something
>worthwhile like their own bloated 76 course lunches).
>
>At the end of the day, the navy get told to buck their ideas up, 45MCr have
>been spent on additional committees, and some bright spark has decided that
>to make up for this they'll mount an efficiency drive by reducing the crew
>of each SDB by half... (sold to higher authority with phrases such as "think
>of the long-term savings for the government with regard to pension
>contributions", etc...)
>
>As you may tell, it's been a long Friday afternoon, so I'm rambling. Anyway,
>you should have got my gist by now. In the same way that a class A starport
>can be a huge inefficient wasteful dump of a place, and a class D can be an
>efficient (if small) and friendly operation that people actually *like* to
>visit... oops, rambling again. Must be those few pints I had at lunchtime.
>
>I'll try for a concise summary.
>
>Look at the real world.
>
>Forget mystical calculations of GNP et al.
>
>Why?
>
>Because most of the space that Travellers adventure in is run by *humans*.
>
>i.e.
>
>If pirates *want* to exist, there are guaranteed to be enough corrupt, inept
>and incompetent individuals/navies/governments/worlds for them to survive.
>
>Andy :-)
>
>P.S. If you have any doubt whatsoever about the discussion above, watch a
>few re-runs of the Yes Minister or Yes PrimeMinister series from the UK, and
>remind yourself that this is mild in comparison to the real incompetence of
>most politicians. For example, when the UK entered the ERM and the pound
>crashed earlier this decade, were the key government ministers (who were
>authorising the billions of expenditure to prop up the currency) watching
>complicated computers analysing every movement on the money markets? Did
>they at least have well-informed advisors who were directly in touch with
>the markets? No, they were listening in to the reports from COMMERCIAL RADIO
>STATIONS. Shouldn't the UK population have immediately come to their senses
>and planted a pile of gunpowder under the Houses of Parliament? Of course
>not, since this was reported on a TV program, and by the time the average
>citizen had worked out anything should be done, they'd forgotten why, or who
>to (q.v. goldfish memory quote above), and by the way wasn't it time for the
>next soap show...
>
><NORMAL SERVICE WILL BE RESUMED AS SOON AS... GPF: PLEASE RE-BOOT BRAIN>
>
        To back up this point, several years ago a representative to the State's
        Legislature for the great state of Indiana (USA) discovered that his
        son was having some difficulty with his study of plane geometry. After
        discussing the material with his son the legislator (who shall remain
        nameless) introduced a resolution to the main body of the legislature to 
        set the value of pi at 3.00 so that it would be easier for school children
        to remember -- the resolution was not passed but was seconded and apparently
        received some general support before the debate on its merits.

	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:20:29 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?

Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:39:11 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>  Actually, this presents a great point. If outrunning a "suspicion of
>piracy/smuggling/not honouring the Emperor's Birthday" notice (or just
>skipping on your payments) were real easy (for, say, J-2+ ships) why
>even bother pirating a cargo at all?

OTOH, if it is impossible, then canon that sometimes people skip
out on ship payments would be impossible (as would being any sort
of fugitive fleeing from planet to planet).  In fact  The problem
is that you are in an "either/or" analysis where you are considering
that if it is possible, it is "easy" (as opposed to impossible).
What is most likely is that there is that there is some chance
of getting caught, and high profile crimes have more chance of
getting caught (which is common, if you rob Fort Knox they are
going to pay a lot more attention than if you rob a 7-11)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:06:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
<snip>
>Sure, but the hydrogen sources on the ship are rather more
>concentrated. You'll note that the Hindenburg *burned* rather than
>exploded. That's because the oxygen and hydrogen can't mix fast enough
>on that scale.
>
Not on topic but certain theories now maintain that the hydrogen in
the Hindenburg didn't burn, the covering of the ship did.  The major
point of this rationale is that hydrogen burns with a bluish flame and
the flames from the airship were definately yellow/orange (not my
theory, comes from an issue of Smithsonian's Air and Space last year).

Jim

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:09:15 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Why use CORPS?

At 09:52 AM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 09:35 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Scott wrote:
>
>>>Point-based is the only way to go, but there's nothing to say that you
>>>can't have unbalanced characters.
>>
>>Gotta disagree on the point based systems being the only way to go. 
>
>I think you misunderstood me, I was refering specifically to CORPS when I
>made that statement.

Yep.  I did.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:18:05 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: B5

SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!!  



















To all of those who missed B5 last night...you really missed out.

This episode really could have been the end of the series.  I really
don't know where they're going from here.  Everything is tied up, and
they've got a whole season yet to do.

An Alliance made from the League of Non-Alligned Worlds...
Sheridan retires from EarthForce...
Sheridan accepts Presidency of the Alliance...
Sheridan and D'Lenn marry...
Garibaldi marries...
Ivanova is promoted to Captain...
Marcus is dead...
Londo and G'Kar are friends...
The Rangers become a Star Fleet like force...

Good God!  What an episode!

Next week, (and this will be last time B5 is on network TV, going to TNT
for the 5th season in January) I understand that we are going to be
looking at the future.

There's a great set-up there for the spin-off series.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, B5 is the best series I've
every seen on TV.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 97 15:31:28 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re:  Ten Essential Authors

Is there no graceful way to continue the integrity of this thread without
pasting the whole dang thing? guess not.  Alas, I added Gene Wolfe , Greg Bear,
Sheri Tepperand Iain Banks to the list and pasted it all on the end.  

My ten (in NPO)

Asimov
Early Niven
Dune 1-3 Herbert and other novels
ANY Gene Wolfe
Sheri Tepper ('Grass' is so good)
Spinrad
Heinlein
Clarke
Dick
Card

- --- John Kovalic wrote:
 Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
familiar with? The ten most ESSENTIAL authors on this list (not necessarily
as far as Traveller is concerned, although perhaps that would make another
good Top-10 list...)


My ten would be:

Asimov, Issac
Bradbury, Ray
Clarke, Arthur C
Dick, Philip
Heinlein, Robert Anson
Herbert, Frank
LeGuin, Ursula
Niven, Larry
Silverberg, Robert
Vonnegut, Kurt

(Sorry to reprint the entire list again, but since this could be starting a
new thread, I thought it should be handy to all)

John K.


>- -A-
> Anderson, Poul
> Anvil, Chris
> Asimov, Issac
>
>- -B-
> Ballard, J G
Banks, Iain
Bear,Greg
> Benford, Gregory
> Bester, Alfred
> Blish, James
> Bova, Ben
> Bradbury, Ray
> Bradley, Marion Zimmer
> Brin, David
> Brown, Fredric
> Brunner, John
> Bujold, Lois
> Busby, F M
>
>- -C-
> Card, Orson Scott
> Chandler, A Bertrum
> Cherryh, C J
> Clarke, Arthur C
> Clement, Hal
>
>- -D-
> Dalmas, John
> De Camp, L Sprague
> Del Rey, Lester
> Delany, Samuel
> Dick, Philip
> Dickson, Gordon
> Drake, David
>
>- -E-
> Ellison, Harlen
>
>- -F-
> Farmer, Philip Jose
> Flynn, Michael
> Forward, Robert
> Foster, Alan Dean
> Frank, Pat
>
>- -G-
> Garrett, Randall
> Gunn, James
>
>- -H-
> Haldeman, Joe
> Heinlein, Robert Anson
> Herbert, Frank
> Hogan, James
>
>- -I-
> Ing, Dean
>
>- -J-
>
>- -K-
> Kornbluth, Cyril M
>
>- -L-
> Laumer, Keith
> LeGuin, Ursula
> Leiber, Fritz
> Leister, Murry
> Lem, Stanislaw
>
>- -M-
> McCaffery, Anne
> Miller, Walter
> Morris, Janet
>
>- -N-
> Niven, Larry
> Norton, Andre
> Norse, Robert
>
>- -O-
> O'Donnell, Kevin
>
>- -P-
> Pangborn, Edgar
> Padgett, Lewis
> Piper, H Beam
> Pohl, Fred
> Pournelle, Jerry
>
>- -Q-
>
>- -R-
> Reynolds, Mark
> Robinson, Spider
>
>- -S-
> Saberhagen, Fred
> Sargent, Pamela
> Schimitz, James
> Sheffeld, Charles
> Silverberg, Robert
> Simak, Clifford
> Smith, Doc
> Smith, George O
> Spinrad, Norman
> Sturgeon, Theodore
>
>- -T-
Tepper, Sheri
> Turtledove, Robert
>
>- -U-
>
>- -V-
> Vance, Jack
> Van Vogt, A E
> Vinge, Joan
> Vinge, Vinner
Vonnegut, Kurt
>
>- -W-
> Watson, Ian
> Weber, David
> White, James
Wolfe,Gene
> Wollheim, Donald
>
>- -X-
>
>- -Y-
>
>- -Z-
> Zahn, Timothy
> Zelazny, Roger

I've added Kurt Vonnegut to the list, since (no matter what he says), I
think his early stuff in particular should be included.

- --- end of quote ---

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:29:07, Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
>The Piracy Thread (which I've collected) is getting near the megabyte
>in volume. It spawned many interesting subthemes, but I think we can
>basically sum up the arguments as follows:

>Pro Piracy
>- ----------
>A) It exists in canonical sources, and seems to be quite common
>(armed starships, pirate career, encounter tables, ""various
>published adventures).
>
>B) Many of the counterproofs, even if more "realistic" would remove a
>lot of adventuring possibilities (realistic sensors, ship registers).
>{Even if apparently spurious, this second argument is quite strong,
> IMHO, considering we are talking about a RPG. Many people in the past
> pointed out that gravitics+fusion would probably remove the need for
> conventional mining, the TL differences are implausible and so on...}

This is a poor summary.  The fact is that a numnber of us _don't_
consider the "proofs" that piracy wouldn't exist to be more
realistic, or even realistic at all.  I personally find to
be too simplistic to have any predictive power and, if
the same approach is applied to real world situations, you
can come up with clear mistakes.  They are also based on a
number of assumptions that, it can be argued, are either
flawed or are arbitrary.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:55:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reading Material

I just wanted to add to the whole Sci-Fi Novel thread by adding one of my 
personal faves.

Anyone out there read "High Crusade" (author escapes me at the moment)


If not....Consider this a

SPOILER ALERT***********************
*
*
*
*
*
SPOLIER ALERT**********************
*
*
*
*
*
*
>YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED<


Basically this alien ship lands on earth during the middle ages.  Right in 
the middle of an English town preparing for war with France.  The ship opens 
and a blue "daemon" appears and fires a laser at an archer.  Bad move.  The 
rest of the Archers fire all on the one "daemon" killing it.  Now that they 
know that the daemons" can be killed the English army storms the ship and 
takes it over.  From there the Baron loads the entire barony on board in an 
attempt to raid France, but the one 'Daemon" (later called a Wesgorix) sets 
the navcontrols to an outpost of his own empire, leaving the primitive 
humans lost in space.  This is just the beginning of the adventure!

I read this when I was playing TNE and thought of what would happen if a 
Merchant ship did the wrong thing on a TL-0/1 world.  Also I thought of what 
would have happened to Vilani Traders who came to Earth back in the 12th 
century! :-)

What really stood in my mind was when the Mideavals discovered the power of 
tactical nukes thrown from a Trebuchet!  Now that's SCARY!

Reminds me of some Trav games in where primitives were picked up and became 
part of the crew.  A Barbarian with a big sword from a high grav world as 
security officer is quite a sight!

"I am AH-nold, you Vill not enter this ship!"

Anyway, read High Crusade.  Very amusing tale.

 ---------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2008
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2009



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: JTAS
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Solomani Rim/MMT
Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)
Re: Why use CORPS?
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))
Re: Definition: Grav Compensator
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Recommended Reading
Top Ten SF authors...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 21:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: JTAS

In-Reply-To: <199710240020.TAA05487@unix.tfs.net>

> Is JTAS every going to be published again?  I have only received two 
> issues, has the third and fourth been printed yet?

According to the website, the third is either out now or soon will be. 
I'll believe it when I see it.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 21:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

In-Reply-To: <345021D3.EF0@GLJA.com>

Erwin,

> Also, don't forget Lucifer's Hammer, a story about a comet hitting
> Earth.

No, *do* forget it. Footfall without the baby elephants.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 21:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971024001149.0076efd8@mail.qrc.com>

Derek,

> * For new players, my one-sentance description of the Aslan is "Imagine, if
>   you will, male Kzinti and female Hani merged into one race - it's not 
>   accurate, but it'll give you a feel for the Aslan."  Most players who've 
>   read both Niven and Cherryh go pale, and try to avoid annoying the nice 
>   Aslan they just met. ;-)

Quote from my game: 
"The Aslan just shredded the engineer"
"Why?"
"He found out what 'psychotic' means..."
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 21:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In-Reply-To: <199710232016.WAA21252@student.liu.se>

Jens,

> are there any more authors I ought to know about?

Alfred Bester (esp. 'The Demolished Man' and 'The Stars My Destination' 
(aka 'Tiger! Tiger!'))
Lois MacMaster Bujold
Iain (M) Banks (books without the M are not (very) SF)

You WILL NOT be disappointed by ANYTHING by these authors.

There's also

David Drake
David Feintuch (sp?)
Harry Harrison (esp. Stainless Steel Rat series)
Douglas Adams (*everyone* should read 'The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the 
Galaxy')
and many more.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 21:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971023195924.1088A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

Craig,

> First, *after* reading (at least) most of the Known Space short stories,
> plus Protector and (if you can find it) World of Ptavvs, *then* read
> Ringworld.  It's a stupendous novel, but it's far better if you're up on
> the Known Space background going in.

Also check out the Man-Kzin Wars books - short stories (some not very 
short) by other authors in Niven's universe.

> Read "Footfall" and "The Mote in God's Eye" for two very different looks
> at first contact with aliens.  "Mote" is on my all-time-best SF list,

Agreed.

> (By the way, I agree with whoever noted that "Ringworld Throne" is a
> clunker.  Also, "Gripping Hand" sucked in a deep and lasting way.

That's the US title for 'The Moat Around Murchesson's Eye'? I didn't think 
it was that bad. It had two very nice (and very Traveller, IMHO) bits - 
the rather unsubtle threat at the start, and the 'we're carrying *what* in 
the hold?!' bit.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:57:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim/MMT

>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:15:43 +0800
>From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Solomani Rim/MMT

>Thanks to all those who replied.  An early draft of the document is
>available at

>http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/solrim_intro.html

>It's in Word 97 format, zipped.  Let me know if you require another format.

>Go the Dockers!!!!! (just getting in practise for next season)


>Michael Bailey
>mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

>pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
>Clubs!

>------------------------------

This is great stuff!  Excellent work.  Was TRTOOLS 0.95 used to downgrade 
the UPP Data?

I was thinking some of us gearheaded oriented individuals (such as myself) 
could get together to produce some Starships, weapons, equipment and such 
for the Polities in the Sol Rim.  From what I can see, most hi-tech worlds 
are TL-12.  I am assuming that there is no fusion plus available tho.

This weekend I am going to plug this data into my copy of Gal2.1  Should be 
interesting.

Thanx, and keep up the good work!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: GAHUNTER <Gahunter@cris.com>
Subject: Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, douglas wrote:

> GAHUNTER wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Douglas wrote:
> > 
> > > Gentlebeings,
> > >
> > > I think we need to establish some basics before the thread erupts into a
> > > flamewar (which I see building).  Realistically, before we can determine
> > > if piracy is practical, some of the points that are ...vague, in canon
> > > need to be addressed.  They are:
> > >
> > > 1) Just how much space traffic is there (both inter- and intra- system)?
> > >
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > How about traffic created by the Space Liners to and from "new" vacation
> > spots within the system... Im pretty sure people are going to go on a 1-2
> > week excursion to the asteroid belt or a ringed gas-giant if not else just
> > for the romance it will portray - similar to our ocean liners now...
> > 
> > How about private belters who search for there lucky find in the belts...?
> > It would be similar to the gold rush - unstoppable, but highly profitable
> > for the belter if they get lucky...
> 
> I was attempting to create a baseline of traffic for a system.  Of
> course local variables (outside the norm) should be administered by the
> GM according to his specific campaign.

Hmmm i was assuming this would be a norm not outside the norm - but i
guess i could be wrong - I always envisioned multiple worlds colonized
within a single system - so there would be traffic to and from these
planets...
 
> [snip]
> 
> > > 4) What are the duties of an SDB when the Imperium is not at war.  What
> > > would a rotation cycle be (ie how long would it be on duty before it
> > > could stand down for R&R, maintenance, etc)
> > 
> > Even at war a SDB should always be defending the system the reside in ...
> > Why else would they have been built?
> 
> SDBs are unable to leave their system, essentially trapped.  If an
> invasion force has accurate intelligence on the numbers and disposition
> of the SDB force, it can not only determine the correct invasion
> strength, but also will be able to determine the strength of the
> occupation force that will be required after the system is suppressed.
> 
> If SDBs are routinely used in anti-piracy/customs patrols, then the
> opportunity to gather that intelligence abounds.
> 
> If the entire force is not used, what percentage is needed to maintain
> an adequate A/piracy presence?  There have been a number of claims that
> a single SDB can supress piracy for a single world.  If that is done,
> are we rotating crews?  What is the schedule?  When is maintenance
> performed?  If more than one is used, what is the patrol schedule?  If a
> Signal GK is received, does the off-duty SDB scramble to cover the ready
> position?  If a Signal GK is received outside the 100 D limit, does the
> planetary SDB respond, or is there a separate command structure for
> interplanetary space.
> 
> Finally, is this a unified command, or is it fragmented.  And is a
> single model applied to all worlds, or does each system have it's own
> structure?
> 
> This does not even touch on the deployment of SDBs to systems that can
> not support them.  (And which I vehemently disagree with)

Hmmm, i would if possible as a pirate set off multiple Signal GK's just to
cause confusion with the SDB trying to determine which is real and which
is false... 

> [snip]
>  
> > > 8) How easy/difficult is it to forge, alter, create or manipulate ship
> > > identification, papers, transponders, etc?  What market would there be
> > > for cargo, starship parts, starships and the like?
> > >
> > > Forging the transponder is difficult to impossible.  Adding additional
> > > transponders seems to be the concensus.
> > 
> > Why would the transponder be difficult to forge? Maybe unaccessable but a
> > ship equipped with modern "tl" workshops and electronic workshops should
> > be rather easy to forge or change a transponder - what the transponder is
> > made from some "special" device - even with some sort of safty lock it
> > could eventually be broken by someone who has the time...
> 
> If you accept the MT version of a transponder, they are impossible to
> duplicate.  Otherwise, they are merely difficult.
> However, as a transponder check would be part of an Imperial 'Health and
> Welfare' naval inspection, it is in your best interests not to have
> touched the box...

I still believe there is no such thing as impossible given the time... but
alas the health and welfare would always discourage it unless of course
you knew how to seal one back to its original seal... hmmm, i guess old
naval inspectors never retire they are just shot in the head somewhere,
hope he gets a good severance plan... or else I would be using that
knowledge to circumvent the transponders...
 
> [snip]
> 
> > >
> > > I didn't catch whether or not we agreed on standard parts.  The last two
> > > posts both supported standardized parts, but one of the posts was mine.  Is
> > > this point settled?
> > 
> > I would tend to agree with most people here that starships would most
> > likely be designed around standard parts - even the custom ones would
> > include standard engines and other standard parts...
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your position.  Are you for or against
> standardization?

Im for it... I truely can not believe the various compaines would not try
to at least try to conform with each other - if not for a better profit
margin...

Guy Hunter
(gahunter@cris.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 16:04:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

On 10/24/97 at 09:44 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>Greg Bear

Thanks, I missed Greg Bear. Suz Dollar pointed that out this morning. ;->

>Connie Willis

Who?  I'll have to make a bookstore run on Connie Willis, as I haven't read
any of her work.

>John Barnes

Right! I missed Barnes...but wait, I'm thinking of *Steven* Barnes who
co-authored on the Dreampark and Jannisary books..is this a different
Barnes?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:47:51 -0700
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)

> From:   Michael Koehne[SMTP:kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de]
> Sent:   Thursday, October 23, 1997 7:37 PM
> To:     Traveller Mailing List
> Subject:        Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate,
> part 2) (fwd)
> 
> Moin douglas,
> 
> > You are, I assume from the numbers above, postulating a Imperial
> > population of some 15 Trillion?
> 
>         rest of the junk deleted. Do you realy thing that T4-Vol1
>         relects employment in the 3I in any sense ? Those are only
>         the career pathes of Marc's choice. You should add those
>         careers of TNE, and those forgotten in TNE as they are even
>         to uninteresting for zipers in the wilds.
> 
>         If 1%% is in one of the T4-Vol1 careers, its a lot. How many
>         astronauts does the US have, how many citizen do the have ?
> 
>         Become real please, traveller is hard SciFi.

You know, actually I've been gnawing on this post all day today.  I
finally realized what it is about it that bothered me.

THE DRAFT.  Involuntary conscription.  Mandatory service, or at least
mandatory employment.

If you don't have a job by the time you are 18 (unless you recieve a
college deferment) - the boys in black come and escort you to your
friendly neighborhood recruiting station.

Perhaps, just perhaps, my initial numbers were not that far off after
all.

Comments?

douglas

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 15:50:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Why use CORPS?

On 10/24/97 at 09:52 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>At 09:35 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Scott wrote:

>>>Point-based is the only way to go, but there's nothing to say that you
>>>can't have unbalanced characters.
>>
>>Gotta disagree on the point based systems being the only way to go. 

>I think you misunderstood me, I was refering specifically to CORPS when I
>made that statement.

Yes, I think he did. 

Let me rephrase his question, "Is there any reason that a random character
generation system couldn't be developed and used with CORPS? Further, is
there some reason a career-system couldn't be used with CORPS?"

I don't see why you couldn't, but I'll defer to the CORPS Corps for the
definitive answer. ;->

BTW, you can pick up the free "Nutshell" version of CORPS from BTRC's web
site.  Sorry don't remember the URL, but some kind person will post it, I'm
sure.  If you can't wait for that post, I *know* you can link to BTRC's
site from Hyperbooks (www.hyperbooks.com), because that's how I got there. 
;->

The Nutshell version of CORPS has a lot of good ideas (I'd expect that from
a Greg Porter product), but there were some things that bothered me.  For
example, the Task System seems to be pretty convoluted.  I quote...

 "Your skill level in CORPS is compared to the adjusted Difficulty of
 the task being performed.  If the skill is >= Difficulty, you succeed.
 If not, you roll 1d10 to check for success.  You succeed if you roll an
 11 or less, *minus 2 for each point of difference* between your skill
 and the Difficulty.
 
 Example -- If your skill is 4 and the Difficulty is 6, you need an 11,
 minus 4 for the difference of 2 points, or a 7 or less."

....Now, this might be intuitive after you do it for a while, but it seems
darn complicated to me.  Sure, if the difficulty level is <= your skill you
don't even have to roll, but if you do have to roll then you have to:

 (1) calculate the difference in your Skill and the Difficulty --
     subtraction
     
 (2) multiply the difference by 2 -- multiplication
 
 (3) subtract the multiplied difference from 11 -- subtraction again
 
 (4) compare it to a roll on a 1d10 -- a die roll and a comparison

To me, that seems much *too* complicated..easy enough to do, but more steps
than I like.  But maybe that's just me.

OTOH, I really like some of the ideas in CORPS.  Greg tries to get
"aptitudes" into the chargen process (if you've been around TML for any
length of time you know how I feel about skill aptitudes ;-) in a simple
way.  His idea of Skill Trees with Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary skills
is a good one.  Greg handles combat, damage, armor, and weapons with a good
bit of detail, and (as I would expect) well:  lethal and non-lethal damage,
dual level armor, and using 3G3 almost directly for ranged weapons.  I
liked what I saw enough to order a copy, which I haven't recieved yet.

I really don't think I'll convert, the skill system bugs me too much, but
I'll probably steal some ideas from CORPS...just like I have from FUDGE,
Aftermath, and ever other rpg system I run across.  ;->

Here's a request to the CORPS Corp on TML..If you have developed Skill
Trees for Traveller, specific chargen procedures, and/or other ways to
interface the CORP System with the TNE/T4 systems I'd *love* to see them.
Would you post them, either on TML or directly to me?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 16:34:26 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))

On 10/24/97 at 12:36 PM,  John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com> said:

>>This is a partial list of Science Fiction Authors I have read and enjoyed.
>>I'm *sure* I'm missing many good authors, but my TML friends will help me
>>complete it.

>Nice list. 

Thanks.

I've missed a few and misnamed Harry Turtledove, but I'm updating my list
based on everybody's posts.  After a few days, I'll repost the updated
list.

>Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
>know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
>familiar with? 

That's a good idea for a thread. Anybody want to keep score and rank SF
authors based on the number of top 10 votes? ;->

The top 10 SF authors for Traveller would be another good list, strong
overlap in my case, but not nessecarily for everybody.

>My ten would be:

>Asimov, Issac
>Bradbury, Ray
>Clarke, Arthur C
>Dick, Philip
>Heinlein, Robert Anson
>Herbert, Frank
>LeGuin, Ursula
>Niven, Larry
>Silverberg, Robert
>Vonnegut, Kurt

Shoot, I missed Kurt Vonnegut! OK, he's one the list.  Frankly, I consider
him more "mainstream" than SF, but that's just me. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:54:50 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Definition: Grav Compensator

Richard Hough wrote:
> 
> >> The 3 Gs of a TL 12 grav compensator can only counteract 2 Gs while
> >> providing a 1 G artificial gravity. In my campaign the thrust axis of most
> >> ships are perpendicular to the ship decks (90 degrees to what is usually
> >> show in Traveller deck plans, in Star Trek, and in ocean-going ships). This
> >> is necessary so that ships can accelerate safely at 1 G above the
> >> compensated acceleration, as shown in SSDS. The 1 G left over is what holds
> >> them down. Ships that have decks parallel to the thrust axis can only
> >> accelerate up to their G compensation, and when they do that the inside of
> >> the ship is at zero G! Comments?
> 
> Glenn Hoppe writes:
> >
> >There was a *big* discussion about this last year. I don't want to
> >rehash it again. Suffice it to say you are right, but there are *some*
> >advantages to putting the decks the way most Traveller plans and ST
> >have.
> 
> Could you post an executive summary? What possible advantage could there be
> to making decks parallel to the thrust axis?

To tell you the truth, I don't remember. ;-) Could have something to do
with ease of flight in an atmosphere, or ease of loading/unloading of
cargo. Maybe it's more expensive to have many "floors" in the ship?
That's a lot of grav plates... ;->

Someone really should get on making a searchable archive of the TML. Old
digests are here:
<ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/>

> >I handwave compensation as being provided by a mechanism different from
> >artificial gravity. Compensation can only do just that: compensate for
> >inertial forces. Cancel 'em. You can't create a new force to "push" the
> >container out the door. You can only cancel (to a limit) G's pulled in
> >the lateral/vertical direction.
> 
> Well, FF&S specifically states on page 78 that the same G compensators that
> eliminate inertial effects also provide environmental gravity. Also the
> SSDS shows "artificial gravity/inertial compensators" as single units. Even
> if you assume G comp can't push a container, you have postulated a new
> "artificial gravity" effect that can. Why not use artificial gravity to
> push the container out the door?

Inertial compensation is *not* an "artificial gravity" effect. (IMHO)

Inertial compensators only *cancel* _inertial_ forces. It doesn't
generate an opposite gravitational force to cancel it. It's just
"magically" gone. Inertial forces are distinct from gravitational
forces.

Making a high speed turn in a jet doesn't actually generate gravity, it
is a result of the inertia of your body sitting in the chair. The
"G-Force" unit ("pulling 3Gs" etc..) is just a measure of this inertial
force against that of the gravitational force.

> Moreover, there are no rules for separate artificial gravity generators.
> This situation leads to referees making mistakes and players abusing the
> rules. I think I am much safer declaring that G comp must both reduce
> inertial and provide artificial gravity.

That's 'cuz you *always* want inertial compensators with artifical
gravity. Or you could say the compensators are a by-product of the
operation of the artifical gravity generators, so you might as well take
advantage of the effect.

Just as electricity generates a magnetic field, artificial gravity
generates an inertial dampening field.

> Whether one can push with G comp or artificial gravity, we still need a
> reason why it isn't used to move cargo.

Here's my reasoning:

- - You need two plates to generate a gravitational field between them.
- - The direction of the gravitational force is *always* perpendicular to
the plates.
(no pushing/pulling sideways, unless you pivot the floor and ceiling :->
)
- - A byproduct of the generation of this artificial gravity is an
inertial dampening field.
- - The "strength" of the inertial dampening field is independent of the
strength of the gravity field. The magnitude/direction of the artifical
gravity can be adjusted without affecting the ability of the inertial
compensators to compensate for inertial forces.
- - At higher tech levels, modulation of the artificial gravity field
allows one to increase the amount of g-forces that can be compensated by
the inertial dampening effect.

<snipah>

> I said before that making artificial gravity not follow the rule for G
> compensation will lead to mistakes in the game. I think this is an example.
> Where do the "6Gs" come from? If it's just pulled out of thin air why not
> 60 Gs or 6000? If you can provide so many Gs of artificial gravity, why not
> mount A-grav plates on the ceiling, engines on the floor, and safely
> accelerate your ship to 6 Gs as well? If there are no rules for this kind

How do you think Thrusters work? ;-> (joking)

> In my campaign a G compensator can damp inertial or provide artificial
> gravity interchangeably. So if you have a 3 G compensator you can
> counteract up to 3 Gs of acceleration or provide up to 3 Gs of artificial
> gravity, but not both. And cranking the ship's gravity to 3 Gs leaves you
> with no inertia compensation. This provides rules for the referee to make
> decisions in and means the players actually have to consider the effects of
> their actions.

But that's not the way it works according to FF&S. There is a maximum
amount of force Inertial compensators can counteract, independent of the
setting of the gravity field.

A little rant:

Thanks for making me think about these things. You've brought up some
very interesting questions, that I don't believe have been thouroughly
thought out in the rules. There's a sort of mishmash of many different
gravity manipulators which seem to make differing assumptions about how
gravity works:

Thruster Plates
Grav Drives
Artificial Gravity/Inertial Compensation
Tractor Beams/Repusors

They also have different powers and effects. I guess different
limitations were wanted for each application of artificial gravity, as
each was added to the game arbitrary limits were placed on them. It sure
would be nice to have a TL-15 _Applied Gravitational Physics_ Textbook
to refer to.

Hey! That's a good idea... I should get started on it...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:27:34 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

At 09:40 PM 10/24/97 BST-1, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <345021D3.EF0@GLJA.com>
>
>Erwin,
>
>> Also, don't forget Lucifer's Hammer, a story about a comet hitting
>> Earth.
>
>No, *do* forget it. Footfall without the baby elephants.

Actually, I prefered LH to FF.  The image of the surfer just sticks with
me, and I found myself caring about the characters more.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:39:48 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 04:04 PM 10/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 10/24/97 at 09:44 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>Connie Willis
>
>Who?  I'll have to make a bookstore run on Connie Willis, as I haven't read
>any of her work.

Haven't been following the Hugos, have we.. Connie is one of the hottest
new writers to appear in a while.  She doesn't do much "space sf", but
books and short stories are great and often very funny.  Check out "The
Doomsday Book", which is absolutely the best time-travel novel I've ever read.

>>John Barnes
>
>Right! I missed Barnes...but wait, I'm thinking of *Steven* Barnes who
>co-authored on the Dreampark and Jannisary books..is this a different
>Barnes?

John Barnes did "A Million Open Doors" (which I steal shamelessly from),
along with an interesting alternate history series (Patton's spaceship,
Washington's Dirigible, and one other)

But *Steve* Barnes... Sensei Steve has been known to throw me across the
room as a greeting.  The man is a human dynamo.  He's a master of about ten
martial arts and reaches Tai-Chi at conventions.  He's promised to kill me
in an upcoming book, continuing my desire to appear dead in more novels
than any other fan in history.  (I'm already in one..)
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:33:24 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Top Ten SF authors...

John Kovalic wrote:

>
>My ten would be:
>
>Asimov, Issac
>Bradbury, Ray
>Clarke, Arthur C
>Dick, Philip
>Heinlein, Robert Anson
>Herbert, Frank
>LeGuin, Ursula
>Niven, Larry
>Silverberg, Robert
>Vonnegut, Kurt


	I'd want to put a word in for Kim Stanley Robinson.  His Mars books
rock.  OTOH, that's pretty heavy company there...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2009
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2010



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jumpspace Dementia
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Who was Heinlein?
Re: Pirates exist because...
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Essential Authors?
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Re: Piracy exists because...
SDB's
SF Reading List
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Larry Niven
the draft
Re: Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Recommended Reading
Solrim UPP Data
Silent Death: Traveller
(pro-) "Pirate" ships
Silent Death: Traveller
Re: Bulkheads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:06:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Jumpspace Dementia

> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

> When this pseudoradiation, which is moving faster than light in
> an environment where this is theoretically prohibited, strikes

I like this analysis, and am going to adopt it, along with my own
thoughts on the electrochemical neural activity, for my campaigns
forthwith.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:17:59 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

> All the Flandry of Terra books you can find by Fritz Liebler. Actually,
> anything by Fritz Liebler is good, but the Flandry series have contributed
> to Traveller canon.

It's Poul Anderson.  If you substitute "Poul Anderson" for "Fritz
Liebler" in the quotation above, everything Bruce says is true.

Bruce's list is excellent.  Go enjoy yourself.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:31:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>

> Wasn't it Louis Wu who was forced to go into hyperspace with
> the ship's hull completely transparent? The only visible object,

It wasn't Louis Wu, but it was a great short story.  The hull (a single
enormous molecule) was destroyed by contact with antimatter, and the two
men aboard had to return home with hyperspace right in their faces:
> entire 4pi steradians of view. Iiiiieeeeeee.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:11:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

> From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
 
> The Mote in God's Eye (or was that Pournelle?)

That's Niven and Pournelle in collaboration, and it is excellent.  Our
Swedish colleague should also be referred to Jerry Pournelle's work (von
Falkenberg is the main mercenary character, if I recall correctly),
Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books, and the Hammer's Slammers books (who
wrote them?) especially if he runs Striker or other science fiction
military campaigns.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:26:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Who was Heinlein?

> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

> directed by Verhoeven (sp?) the guy who did Robocop and Showgirls, and

> splattered with brains"; basically, a lot of fans are worried that the
> aforementioned philosophical component of the novel will get badly mangled.

Philosophical component?  In a Verhoeven film?  It's hard to type while
laughing so hard, really, you are just too funny, let me get my breath
back ...

It's just a coincidence that the movie and the book have the same name,
I'm sure.  (I have to wipe my eyes ... philosophical component ... what
a card.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:46:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

> From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)

> >Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists. ...
 
> Hmm. The argument could be made that piracy suppression exists because the
> *threat* of piracy exists.

This is actually a pretty good perspective.  In order to maintain
internal order, the Imperium needs a big navy.  It can't justify a big
navy (and the taxes to pay for it) by telling that truth.  It can't
justify a big navy by pointing to external threats -- the various
external powers just aren't enough of a threat, and won't be perceived
as enough of a threat, to the interior of the Imperium.  The interior,
of course, is where the richest, most mature economies are, and where
the real threats to the throne can be found, but the population won't
accept the Emperor saying, I need to tax you to buy weapons to protect
myself from you.  Thus were pirates invented, or, if not invented, kept
alive over time.

Adventure hook:  Pirates operating in a certain sector are actually
Imperial agents, acting in collusion with Imperial Naval Intelligence to
(1) injure the economy of a dangerous noble or member state and (2)
generate publicity when the navy finally "catches" them.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:02:41 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>

> OK, OK ... so I am not well-read in SF litterature, but I will be :-)

That's the spirit!  A great and wonderful world (many of them, actually)
awaits you.  Check the archives of this mailing list for one of our
periodic discussions of what everyone should have read.

> Who is Heinlein, and are there any more authors I ought to know about?

Robert Heinlein wrote some excellent "hard" science fiction starting in
the 1950s.  It's been said of him that when he imagines a new world, he
imagines it right down to the shoelaces.
Don't miss these:
Have Spacesuit, Will Travel (1959?)
Starship Troopers (I don't believe that the movie with the same name has
anything to do with it)
Podkayne of Mars
Friday (a late, decadent, piece of work, but interesting nevertheless)
Stranger in a Strange Land (his best-known work)

Keith Laumer is best known for three universes:  The Bolo stories
concern giant self-aware tanks, and are mostly set in the aftermath of a
vast interstellar war in which the tanks were a major weapon.  The Big
Show is a collection of these stories.  The Retief stories are about an
ace member of the Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne.  The multiple
universe stories deal with multiple parallel universes running along at
the same time (so that today in our universe is also today in a parallel
universe, except that what's happening may be different).

Joe Haldeman wrote The Forever War, a brilliant parody of the Vietnam
War, but excellent as science fiction as well.

Poul Anderson wrote a lot of books set in various stages of a future
history.  The Nicolas Van Rijn stories concern an interstellar merchant
in relatively early times.  The Dominic Flandry stories are about an
agent of the Terran Empire's naval intelligence department, very late in
the game for the Empire.  Flandry sees his task as holding off the
inevitable collapse of the Empire, and the galaxy's descent into the
Long Night, for the remainder of his own life.  

These should distract you for a few weeks.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:08:30 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Essential Authors?

Hmm. Is Larry Niven really God? I've read some of his stuff - some is truly
brilliant, like Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, Legacy Of Heorot.

Some is above arerage but a bit in-jokey (Fallen Angels)

Some is yawnful, filled with meaningless undifferentiated characters, eg
Moat Around Murcheson's Eye.

Even Niven has bad days.

My preferences: People who've written at least one book that really
impressed me are:
Niven, Pournelle, Drake, Laumer, Piper, Steve Perry (The Man Who Never
Missed series).
Walter John Williams (I think that's his name)
Pohl, Herbert, and Richard Avery (The Expendables series)
And... some other people I can't think of offhand. Including me, by the
way.

Are any of them infallible? No. But all of them have produced at least one
very good story.

Which is nice, because there's so much yuk out there right now that I don't
read ANYTHING that isn't:
A: Recommended by someone I respect, or:
B: By someone I've read and liked before.

Life's too short to read what I've heard described as 'drek'.

I don't think there ARE any 'essential authors'. Just ones who I like and
some I don't.
I don't deify any writer. If they produce a bad book or two, fine. I'll try
several before I give up on them. But so many go off after the first two or
three and just write any old trash.

The question we should ask is:

WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SF/TRAVELLER STORIES:

The ones that immediately leap to (my tiny) mind (guess the authors if you
can) are:
Space Viking
But Loyal To His Own
The Man Who Never Missed
Footfall
The Legacy Of Heorot
King David's Spaceship
Alien
Dune 
Gateway
Bolo
The Forever War
Starship Troopers
Hammer's Slammers: Counting The Cost.
Janissaries

.... there are many others but these are my first thoughts. 
I'm sure there are many more, but it's late.
Any thoughts/recommendations?

Martin.
Here's a final thought: Babylon 5. How many of the main characters are
depicted as doing ANYTHING but shooting/fighting in the opening credits?
Not many! So all these 'enlightened' authors who're filling books with
politically-correct mumblings - take note! This is SF! SF is fun! SF is
about testosterone-pumping shootout action with plenty of hand-to-slime
combat. Stuff your meandering plot, EAT HOT PHOTON DEATH (YEAH YEAH)!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Huh? Oh, sorry. Ranting again. Too long spent staring into Jspace trying to
figure out if it'll drive me mad(der).

Bye....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:41:21 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

Bill Prankard wrote:

[snip]
>
>Weird, reminds me of the "Urban Assault Weapon" or such in Beverly Hill's
>Cop III.  The one with the Boom Box, Vanity Mirror, and Microwave oven?  Now
>that's Accessorizing! :)
>


	Never saw it, but it sounds kinda twisted.  Sorta like the RV in
Stripes.  Hmmm... where's my copy of CSC?


><More Recoil Stuff Vaped>
>
>>        Makes sense to me...  Although I tend to use them as a reality
>>check in the design stage.  If a pistol goes over say 6 recoil, it's time
>>to start hanging accessories off it :).
>
>Mind you, it wouldn't look very much like a pistol anymore.  I could reduce
>energy to sane levels, but then it would be less effective than a laser or
>regular sidearm.
>
><Sigh>


	Yeah... that's the bummer with lower-TL-high-tech stuff.  At TL-12
regular cpr slugthrowers are still the most efficient in terms of damage,
capacity, and weight.  You can get more damage out of a gauss gun, but at a
sacrifice in either ammo capacity or weight.   Not neccessarily a bad
thing; makes the design process more interesting...

>
>Someone else suggested making it a mine.  That would be one hell of a
>"Bouncing Betty"! Using the recoil as a from of propulsion and turning the
>pistol into an explosive or KE penetrator.


	Naw; just bury it with the muzzle pointed upwards, or securely
attached to some large object, pointed at the triggerring device.  Light,
compact, lethal.  Can you visualize someone stepping on one?  Greasy
flaming bits of deceased poor SOB would be raining all over the place :).


>
>Maybe if it was placed as a backup weapon to Battledress, or placed inside a
>shock absorbing cybernetic arm....
>
>Be Afraid....
>Be VERY afraid!

	I think that it'd make a wonderful BD sidearm...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy exists because...

Hello,
>The operation of naval vessels in this century, in the defense mode, occur
>in regions that do not interfere significantly with merchant traffic.
>Maneouvres occur in the mid ocean away from prying eyes, or blatantly just
>off an agressors coast in order to impress on that countries ruling powers.
>This is the case during peacetime. I accept that a war-footing is different.

  This presumes that GG's are not somewhat out of the way; they also happen
to be where many if not most battles expect to be fought.

>Given the vastness of space and the constant training for warfare with which
>the IN is occupied, would not the same be true? This implies that the ships
>allocated to piracy suppression are essentially the only ones on the job.
>The others are on maneouves, or "at the front" or at strategic posts, or
>providing a backdrop to some noble's birthday party or wherever. They are
>otherwise busy elsewhere is my point.

  This assumes that piracy suppression is wholly unlike training for anti-
commerce raiding/convoy duty, or that navies don't plan such until the war
is underway. 20th C. British experience shouldn't be used as a guide here.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: SDB's

Hello,
>> Even at war a SDB should always be defending the system the reside in ...
>> Why else would they have been built?
>
>SDBs are unable to leave their system, essentially trapped.  If an
>invasion force has accurate intelligence on the numbers and disposition
>of the SDB force, it can not only determine the correct invasion
>strength, but also will be able to determine the strength of the
>occupation force that will be required after the system is suppressed.

  They're still sorta strategically tubed, tho. You have to garrison
with warships, and an enemy squadron sortying could cost you control
of the system. The SDB's are much cheaper, on a combat strength basis.

>If SDBs are routinely used in anti-piracy/customs patrols, then the
>opportunity to gather that intelligence abounds.

  Keeping construction totals secret from the Zho (at least) seems
bloody unlikely. In FFW, SDB's were open data (look it up in the
local budget yearbooks for a good idea). SDB's lurking in GG's and
odd corners serve as guards without necessarily blowing their cover.

>If the entire force is not used, what percentage is needed to maintain
>an adequate A/piracy presence?  There have been a number of claims that
>a single SDB can supress piracy for a single world.  If that is done,
>are we rotating crews?  What is the schedule?  When is maintenance
>performed?  If more than one is used, what is the patrol schedule?  If a
>Signal GK is received, does the off-duty SDB scramble to cover the ready
>position?  If a Signal GK is received outside the 100 D limit, does the
>planetary SDB respond, or is there a separate command structure for
>interplanetary space.
>
>Finally, is this a unified command, or is it fragmented.  And is a
>single model applied to all worlds, or does each system have it's own
>structure?

  SDB's aren't IN, IIRC, so the latter, I guess.

>This does not even touch on the deployment of SDBs to systems that can
>not support them.  (And which I vehemently disagree with)

  For wartime (only) I'd suggest that SDB's can live off pre-positioned
supplies. No-one with FFW has volunteered data, but I would assume that
only systems with valuable worlds have SDB's in peacetime. I agree that
backwater worlds that should still have small freighter traffic will
not normally have SDB's, and that these are the worlds where starships
would be stationed or patrol intermittently.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:04:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: SF Reading List

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:

> Although the
> writers of T:TNE were unaware of Saberhagen's work (and I believe them, they
> seemed to be pretty unaware of most of Traveller's Hard SF background)

I consider myself fairly well-read in hard SF. I consider  Frank and Dave the
same or more so. I don't know if Dave has ever read any of the Berserker
novels...I have (albeit many years ago), and I know Frank has. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:08:46 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

Douglas, are you an author as well?  your name sounds familiar.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:15:02 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

I agree, "Gripping Hand" let me down after "The Mote in God's Eye"
amazed me.

What about Keith Laumer's Bolo books?  I'd think self-aware battle-tanks
would get you gear-heads computing and designing.  :)
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:11:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: the draft

Hello,
>You know, actually I've been gnawing on this post all day today.  I
>finally realized what it is about it that bothered me.
>
>THE DRAFT.  Involuntary conscription.  Mandatory service, or at least
>mandatory employment.
>
>If you don't have a job by the time you are 18 (unless you recieve a
>college deferment) - the boys in black come and escort you to your
>friendly neighborhood recruiting station.

  This is probably best treated solely as a chargen artifact from CT.
Otherwise we have 15 billion citizens directly administered by an
authoritarian Empire, yes? I suspect that piracy can be rubbed out
or converted into a State monopoly in that scenario, _very_ easily.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:11:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking, Piracy, or Fraud?

>>  Actually, this presents a great point. If outrunning a "suspicion of
>>piracy/smuggling/not honouring the Emperor's Birthday" notice (or just
>>skipping on your payments) were real easy (for, say, J-2+ ships) why
>>even bother pirating a cargo at all?
>
>OTOH, if it is impossible, then canon that sometimes people skip
>out on ship payments would be impossible (as would being any sort
>of fugitive fleeing from planet to planet).  In fact  The problem
>is that you are in an "either/or" analysis where you are considering
>that if it is possible, it is "easy" (as opposed to impossible).

  I'd suggest that it's possible, but not easy at all. I'm still
trying to come up with more general cases in which individual acts
of piracy would be do-able (if the province of somewhat desperate
actors). There might also be a problem in that I didn't say what
you're attributing. Some of the posts have indicated that running
off from system to system with either a stolen cargo or ship is 
trivially easy, due in no small part to the Imperiums inability
or unwillingness to keep useful records.

>What is most likely is that there is that there is some chance
>of getting caught, and high profile crimes have more chance of
>getting caught (which is common, if you rob Fort Knox they are
>going to pay a lot more attention than if you rob a 7-11)

  Which is relevant to the "national car registry" variant. If
the authorities can figure out where the parts of an airliner
bomb were bought, it might be reasonable to assume that the real
reason for not tracking cars is that they don't care, combined
with the insane political cost of the attempt. IE, if they did
much care, they could certainly consider it. Think of how much
data is now available from commercial datanets, without human
operators in most instances.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 22:35:26 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

On 10/24/97 at 07:33 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> said:


> I'd want to put a word in for Kim Stanley Robinson.  His Mars books rock.

If I'm not mistaken it should be...her!  Her, Mars books rock. ;->

She's Spider Robinson's daughter, I do believe.

And yes, she should be added to the list of authors worth reading.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 22:43:59 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

On 10/24/97 at 04:39 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>>Connie Willis

>>Who?  I'll have to make a bookstore run on Connie Willis, as I haven't read
>>any of her work.

>Haven't been following the Hugos, have we..

Not really.  The last few years if it hasn't been in Analog, I haven't seen
it.  Like I wrote to Bruce Johnson earlier, my SF reading time has been
severly eaten into...mainly by roleplaying PBEM's.  ;->

>Connie is one of the hottest new writers to appear in a while.  She
>doesn't do much "space sf", but books and short stories are great and
>often very funny.  Check out "The Doomsday Book", which is absolutely
>the best time-travel novel I've ever read.

Like I said, I'll have to make a bookstore run.

>John Barnes did "A Million Open Doors" (which I steal shamelessly from),
>along with an interesting alternate history series (Patton's spaceship,
>Washington's Dirigible, and one other)

Totally, passed me by. Looks like another name to add to my list.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:12:03 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Solrim UPP Data

TRTOOLS was used initially to downgrade the data, then I went through each
subsector and adjusted the data (extensively in some cases) to fit what I
wanted.


Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:07:22 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Silent Death: Traveller

Did I just read this right? In the latest issue of the Dragon, ICE claims
(in the last-page column) that it is going to produce the "Official"
IG-licensed Traveller starship game, based on "Silent Death."

It seems to me that "Full Thrust" would be a better Trav sim, but simply
due to the scale. I mean, "Silent Death" is great, and I love the minis,
but it's (nearly) a pure fighter game.

Anybody else hear anything?

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:36:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: (pro-) "Pirate" ships

Hello,
  Is it reasonable to assume that a Far Trader with excellent
armaments can classify as a standard "independent" pirate? It
is common, can make money legitimately, can J-2, has enough
cargo to loot a hold, swallow a ship's boat, or get another
couple parsecs on collapsible tanks.

  It's also cheap enough (~85-90 MCr at TL 12, HG) to be the
"ship" type benefit, i.e., privately owned, and requiring a
small enough crew to keep a secret (very important). OTOH,
it can't take an SDB under any serious conditions; so what?

  It can unquestionably smuggle and engage in fraud, or even
legitimate business. Now, if it happens to find itself in a
backwater system (very preferably without live passengers)
with no obvious patrols and a potential victim, why might it
not examine the possibilities?

  I assume there will be no SDB's, garrison warships, but the
possibility of several patrol ships at any time. If I'm having
trouble making payments, or believe that I can cash the _ship_
in for even 10% (say 6 MCr, or 6000 Dt cargo haulage!) then I
may try it. I believe that under these circumstances taking the
ship is necessary (they could be hauling anything, but I don't
have to worry about 0-G stevedoring that way), as this must be
a rare opening, and repeated attempts will almost inevitably
deal you out of the game.

  This begs the question of whether a transponder transmits
constantly, or replies when pinged.

  Also, what is a reasonable average cost (before fencing) of a
Dt of cargo? I'm assuming that the pirate can't reasonably expect
to have foreknowledge of ships manifests.

  Again, a Far Trader at a jerkwater planet may not need to fence
a cargo at all - rather fake a manifest and sell at whatever you
can get. If it's a good price, they may not complain, right?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:07:22 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Silent Death: Traveller

Did I just read this right? In the latest issue of the Dragon, ICE claims
(in the last-page column) that it is going to produce the "Official"
IG-licensed Traveller starship game, based on "Silent Death."

It seems to me that "Full Thrust" would be a better Trav sim, but simply
due to the scale. I mean, "Silent Death" is great, and I love the minis,
but it's (nearly) a pure fighter game.

Anybody else hear anything?

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 00:06:09 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bulkheads

On 10/24/97 at 04:17 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>If the space between the inner and outer can be depressurized on warships
>and the pipings etc are nonessential to combat then the ship would gain
>quite a lot of effective armour. When a warhead (KE) or laserblast hits
>the outer shell the blast will radiate inwards as a cone of molten/gaseous
>metal that will rapidly diminish in penetrative/damaging ability.

Frankly, I haven't thought about that part of the design, but yes you are
right.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2010
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2011



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aliens Vol 1
Economic Data (long)
THUDDD 7: Heavy Fighter - Request for Proposals
Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Humour?
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)
re: typo
Science Fiction Authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:07:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <971023115055_504733232@emout01.mail.aol.com>
>
>>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>>  
>> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>>  
>> Marc
>
> Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!

Gee, I didn't know our med TL was up to that yet... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:03:38 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Economic Data (long)

Some Numbers About Piracy, Trade and Imperial Budgets

Summary: The Imperium is BIG, and it's WEALTHY.  It's requently hard to grasp
just how big and how wealthy, because the numbers are usually astronomical
(and
I hope you'll pardon the pun).

To try and inject hard numbers into the current piracy debate, I went into my
archives.  The size of the Imperium and it's armed forces, the amount of
interstellar trade, and the possibility (or not) of piracy has appeared the
TML
before.  The whole time I've been a member (and as a resident old-timer on the
list, that means a long time), the thread keeps coming back.

Years ago I analysed the DGP sector data with SAS (a statistical data
analysis 
package).  These sector files were generated by DGP, and represent the
Imperium 
in the first year or so of the Rebellion. TheImperium tallys 10,497 worlds 
(close enough to the expected 11,000 to give the following data has an 
uncertanty of about 5%).  I believe that the sector data files have since
been 
declared non-canonical.  Although they do include almost all published canon 
data, the bulk of the data was computer-generated without human oversight or 
correction.

The Gross Planetary Product (GPP) and Taxation rules from Striker (original
edition) were used to compute the GPP in Local Credits.  The Striker exchange
table was used to convert these to Imperial Standard (Port-A, TL-15) Credits,
which were then taxed at the suggested rates.  Rules from Trillion Credit
Squadron (TCS) were used to compute the shipyard capacity of each Class A
and B
Starports, as well.  The shipyard capacity is primarily determined by the
population of a world.

For those of you that don't recognize the term, Striker and Classic Traveller
recognized different values for a Credit, depending on the TL and starport
type
of a world.  These factors were assumed to indicate the strength and
sophistication of the local economy.  The exchange rate between a world's
local
Credit and the Imperial Standard Credit reduces the value of the taxes paid to
the Imperium by low-tech, backwater worlds, and increases the relative
importance of the contributions of of high-tech trading centers.

The Third Imperium is a trade protectorate encompassing 10,497 star systems
with
a total population of about 16,731,817,153,000 sophonts.  The annual Gross
Imperial Product (GIP) is 219,474,958,700,000,000 Credits.  This is the total
value of all of the goods and services produced on all the member worlds of
the
Imperium in one year, adjusted to Imperial Standard Credits.  The
per-capita GIP
is 13,117.22 Imperial Standard Credits per sophont, but is concentrated
primarily in the inhabitants of high-tech worlds.  The Imperium imposes a tax
burden of about 1% of the GIP, producing Imperial revenues of about
2,194,749,587,000,000 Imperial Standard Credits per year. Individual worlds
tax
their citizens at various rates, depending on the government type and need.

Also relevant to the piracy debate is the shipbuilding and maintenance capacity
of the world's shipyards.  The shipyards of the Imperium's Class A starports
have an aggregate capacity (all tech levels) of 5,098,672,838 displacement tons
for vessel construction. Its Class B ports have an additional capacity
4,367,049,593 displacement tons for the repair and annual maintainance of
starships.  The table below shows the tech level breakdown for the Imperium's
Class A and B starports.

TL  ClassA  ClassB      BuildTons      MaintTons  Build%  Maint%
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
4        0       3              0        117,600    0.00    0.00
5        0       8              0      1,055,652    0.00    0.02
6        2      43         82,000      4,944,480    0.00    0.11
7        4      89      3,763,899     10,738,080    0.07    0.25
8       23     196     15,853,016     40,124,708    0.31    0.92
9       56     308     11,689,867    104,965,363    0.23    2.40
A      135     427     26,558,910    137,957,429    0.52    3.16
B      158     518     87,529,595    420,700,561    1.72    9.63
C      238     579    300,827,072    671,936,269    5.90   15.39
D      244     484    540,769,684    525,260,647   10.61   12.03
E      388     455  1,254,523,697    857,493,892   24.60   19.64
F      485     251  2,163,360,932  1,271,804,383   42.43   29.12
G       55      21    693,714,164    319,950,528   13.61    7.33
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
ALL  1,788   3,382  5,098,672,838  4,367,049,593  100.00  100.00

The TCS rules are aimed at military campaigns, and generally ignore civilian
shipping entirely.  Therefore it is reasonable to assume that this bias also
applies to shipyard and base capacity.  The TCS rules are not clear if this
capacity includes Imperial facilities (such as Navy Depots, Scout Way Stations,
and various yards operating under contract to the Imperium), or includes only
non-Imperial facilities.

By making a few (reasonable, I hope) assumptions, I worked out the total amount
of ships that these facilities can support.  I assumed that the total size of
the forces was constant at about 90% of the capacity of the various facilities,
that the average lifetime of a ship was 80 years (40 years on the front-line,
and 40 years in secondary or local service), and that all ships recieve their
annual maintenance.  The total aggregate tonnage varies with the average size of
ships (because of the construction time of the ship increases with size), as
summarized below.

 Avg Hull  Weeks      Total Tons   Total Ships
- ----------------------------------------------
      100     40  29533053600000  295330536000
      200     48  12305441461100   61527207305
      400     64   4614539625000   11536349062
      800    112   1318436728600    1648045910
    1,000    120    984432658912     984432658
    5,000    144    164070879275      32814175
   10,000    160     73832634000       7383263
   20,000    174     33948245113       1697412
   50,000    192     12307900087        246158
  100,000    208      5677729554         56777
  200,000    224      2635825033         13179
  500,000    232      1018830349          2037
1,000,000    240       494678647           494

Picking a force mix rather arbitrarily, I come up with the following numbers
for the ships that compose the available forces.  You can choose your own
force mix, and generate different numbers of vessels.  It's worth remembering
that these figures represent the ability of the starports to construct and
maintain these ships.

Category                        %Total Avg Tons    Ships
- --------------------------------------------------------
Battleships and Battletenders    30.0%  500,000      611
Battledriders and Monitors       30.0%  200,000     3953
Cruisers and Fleet Intruders     10.0%   50,000    24615
Fleet Escorts                     3.0%   10,000   221497
Support and Supply Vessels       16.9%  100,000     9595
Patrol, Enforcement and Convoy    0.1%    1,000   984432
System Defense Boats             10.0%    5,000  3281417

System Defense: There are about 5170 class A or B starports in the Imperium.
SDBs are  nonstarships, which can be built at either type of starport.  Making
the (mostly) reasonable assumption that SDBs will be located in systems
that can
build them locally, this allocates about 634 per system for local defense.
Note that these are 5,000 ton "heavy" SDBs. Actually, a mixture of ships would
be chosen so that the aggregate tonnage is the same as if they were all 5,000
tons.  If they were all 400-ton "light" SDBs, there could be over 200 thousand
SDBs in EACH SYSTEM (the crews alone would exceed the population of most
worlds).

Piracy Supression: The Patrol, Enforcement, and Convoy Escort ships are assumed
to be jump-capable starships in the 1000-ton class.  Actually, these ships would
range from the 300-ton Gazelle-class Close Escorts, through Patrol and Mercenary
Cruisers, up to light destroyers.  Almost all would be jump-capable.  Given that
the bulk of these ships would be deployed at some distance from their bases, it
is reasonable to assume that a total of 4 ships will be required to maintain one
ship on patrol at any given time (one ship on patrol, one in port, and one each
in transit to and from the patrol zone).  Making these assumtions and doing
the math, I come up with 23 ships on patrol simultaneously on patrol in each 
and every system of the Imperium at any given time.

I also computed detailed statistics (by TL and starport class) for the Imperium
as a whole, and for each sector individually.  The following table is for all of
the 10,497 star systems of the Third Imperium, and gives the GPP, local Army and
local Navy budgets, as well as the Imperial tax budget from each combination of
TL and starport type.  This will give you an idea of the funds and
manpower available as well as the facilities.

T/P Number Population     GPP-LMCr  Army-LMCr  Navy-LMCr    Tax-MCr
BaseTons
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
0 A     1           0            0          0          0          0  0
  B     4           0            0          0          0          0  0
  C     2           0            0          0          0          0  0
  E     3           0            0          0          0          0  0
  X    15       60702            0          0          0          0  0
1 C     1      800000            0          0          0          0  0
  D     2      580000            0          0          0          0  0
  E     5      166000            0          0          0          0  0
  X    23     1857464            0          0          0          0  0
2 B     1           0            0          0          0          0  0
  C     1        3000            0          0          0          0  0
  D     6      209805            0          0          0          0  0
  E    15     2365432            0          0          0          0  0
  X    16     2960300            0          0          0          0  0
3 C     7      142080            0          0          0          0  0
  D    22     3716592            0          0          0          0  0
  E    28     7540632            0          0          0          0  0
  X    16     2493013            0          0          0          0  0
4 B     3      108000            0          0          0          0117600
  C    19     4682167            0          0          0          0  0
  D    71     7501678            0          0          0          0  0
  E    55     6018435            0          0          0          0  0
  X    24     8272044            0          0          0          0  0
5 B     8     1069002      2297282      19297      28946        8271055652
  C    58    14746169     34763899     191143     538899       9386  0
  D    83    12102544     24357733     192085     319427       4384  0
  E   123     7741626     15156566     126369     191919       1364  0
  X    28     1597671      2687462      15720      40716        242  0
6 A     2       82000       622080       5225       7838        56082000
  B    43     4827035     19892457     166987     250755      143234944480
  C   151    31470953    128320219     849911    1844814      57744  0
  D   114    35941280    151067660    1236976    1935444      54384  0
  E   147    27232902    126315749     928440    1724191      34105  0
  X    24   144108221    589499102    4822014    7557466     159165  0
7 A     4     3174000     26683184     224139     336208      480303763899
  B    89     9668207     71867327     603684     905531      9702110738080
  C   274   131843203    775730564    6451911    9838428     698157  0
  D   152    91505940    722267294    6047523    9120093     520033  0
  E   202    78754157    483254993    3477097    6671257     217465  0
  X    30    16282454     90392833     756843    1141406      40677  0
8 A    23    14259234    115054654     966386    1449762     31064715853016
  B   196    39299126    364650465    3055235    4602425     82046340124708
  C   362   168470119   1393102891   11305547   17949610    2507584  0
  D   173    69367345    558124363    4626652    7093959     753468  0
  E   204   162622966   1229888670    9751904   16075756    1106900  0
  X    22    19282091    181366308    1479139    2329552     163230  0
9 A    56    10663195    127321316    1064747    1609001     45835711689867
  B   308    98921450   1025648301    8122653   13415958    3230792104965363
  C   435   288247359   2981562823   24104147   38508677    8050217  0
  D   180   254035437   2401722624   19384549   31051627    5403874  0
  E   160   292940797   2956480838   21754027   40332066    5321663  0
  X    17    12931221    124502536     406072    2208480     224105  0
A A   135    26881005    369727939    3063882    4700401    166377626558910
  B   427   123748030   1634469884   12642791   21681068    6619602137957429
  C   457   306969612   4385055982   36178481   55907703   15786200  0
  D   139   311794632   3716567214   22422694   55625206   11707185  0
  E   139   290309668   3736179850   30963146   47496615   10087683  0
  X     7     8514700    113668400     187088    2199948     306905  0
B A   158    83582396   1187343086    9848407   15085794    641165087529595
  B   518   386739789   5947123964   46349575   78540026   29438261420700561
  C   393   421463161   6455362479   45853355   89709254   29049128  0
  D    73   106188510   1579635393   10900891   22271447    6397521  0
  E    99   413869036   6186253980   45202346   84708988   22270512  0
  X     4    70380000    984143999    8264410   12402612    3100053  0
C A   238   285255970   5243546801   42831382   67283068   33034342300827072
  B   579   635189096  11150947722   74791827  159378019   65233038671936269
  C   309   277104774   4852678280   38926397   62979836   26204460  0
  D    35   371114696   7091376321   46985279  101933591   35102312  0
  E    41   519031356   9360143981   75240846  121322153   42120644  0
D A   244   536411000  10421476686   72135324  146715629   75034626540769684
  B   484   492104682   9197628276   70192142  122957997   62083982525260647
  C   168   755741858  13756104967  108352113  180526039   86663454  0
  D    18   372000633   8485927063   49402479  128801953   49642675  0
  E     9   210000000   4888799190   29550510   73114239   26399517  0
  X     1          70         1008          8         13          5  0
E A   388  1197545498  25561529521  195194231  341597742  2070483381254523697
  B   455   770484062  16321797691  128429451  214328192  124861721857493892
  C    98   576919806  14425146640  105470633  197457392  103861052  0
  D     7    90000009   2259199846   18977278   28465905   15249598  0
  E     8   220000205   5312002773   31825906   79726112   33465618  0
F A   485  2057697253  46943225769  353925632  631881957  4224889192163360932
  B   251  1211548070  30258234622  193112777  442310051  2587078661271804383
  C    33   526002372  12930759838   57950381  213595536  104739156  0
  D     4    70000000   1724799489    2173247   34047535   13194718  0
  E     1           0            1          0          0          0  0
G A    55   629559473  16861332211  104005742  250082149  166927119693714164
  B    21   285000680   7358603343   33215632  121315021   69538786319950528
H X     1           0            0          0          0          0  0
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
ALL 10497 16731817153 317425396400 2236702704 4429229399 2194749587
                                                          Starport A5098672838
                                                          Starport B4367049593

Columns Present in the Table
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T/P -------- Tech Level and Starport Classification.
Number------ Number of Worlds with this TL and Port combination.
Population - Total Population IN THOUSANDS (eg, 70 = 70,000 inhabitants).
GPP-LMCr --- Gross Planetary Product, IN MILLIONS of Local Credits.
Army-LMCr -- Budget for local Army/COACC forces, IN MILLIONS of Local Credits.
Navy-LMCr -- Budget for local/aux Navy forces, IN MILLIONS Local Credits.
Tax-MCr ---- Taxes Paid to Interstellar Gvmt, IN MILLIONS of Imperial Credits.
BuildTons -- Starship Construction (Port "A") Capacity, in Displacement Tons.
MaintTons -- Starship Overhaul (Port "B") Capability, in Displacement Tons.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7: Heavy Fighter - Request for Proposals

[From IN Press Release 0035-072-0002, Capital/Core]

The Imperial Military Advanced Research Projects Administration (IMARPA),
in partnership with the Imperial Ship Builders Association (ISBA), is
pleased to announce the inception of a new prototype-vessel development
program under the umbrella of the Imperial Navy Year 50 (IN50) task force.
IN50 is a long-term effort to study and prototype designs for the next
generation of Imperial Navy vessels.

Proposals are being solicited for a next-generation aerospace heavy 
fighter, designated Project IN50-F2.  Baseline requirements are:

* Size in the range 20-50 tons inclusive
* Capable of both atmospheric and vacuum combat operations
* Crew of 1 or 2
* Minimal life support and provisions for up to 7 days

The potentially long operational duration of 7 days is meant for emergency
situations only; e.g., a fighter stranded in a hostile system following
destruction/withdrawal of its parent fleet, waiting for rescue or making
its way to a habitable world.  Normal operational duration for the fighter
will not exceed 1 day.

In addition to these requirements, the craft must be an effective and
survivable weapons platform.  Major operational scenarios upon which
vessel evaluation will be based are: 

* Fleet combat support
  - Auxilliary point defense for friendly ships/installations
  - Force projection against isolated small/damaged enemy ships
  - Force projection against atmospheric/ground targets

* Patrol support
  - Close-orbit patrol/scouting
  - Blockade enforcement
  - Commerce escort

To fulfill all these roles, the fighter must be capable of operating from
planetary bases or from stations/vessels.

The wide permitted range of fighter sizes is intentional.  IMARPA is
attempting to find the optimal point between:

* Swarms of smaller fighters, the loss of each of which is less
  significant, but which are so underarmed as to be nearly useless
  offensively, and

* A few larger, well-armed fighters, each with more offensive punch,
  but also very expensive to lose in combat.

Proposals submitted in response to this request should explain how the
design presented addresses this issue.

The selected bidder will be contracted to build 24 units of their design
for performance evaluation; it is expected that this will lead to a full
production order (totalling thousands of units) within 10 years.

***

Contest Timeline:

  Fri 10/24:  RFP released
  Sat 11/08:  Entry deadline
  Mon 11/10:  Ballots released
  Mon 11/24:  Voting deadline
  Wed 11/26:  Results announced

Admin stuff:

* Watch for this material on the THUDDD website this weekend.
* How would people feel about voting on the web rather than by email?
  Would anyone be unable to do that?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:17:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia)

In mail you write:

> Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books, and the Hammer's Slammers books (who
> wrote them?) especially if he runs Striker or other science fiction
> military campaigns.

David Drake wrote Hammer's Slammers and a whole bunch of other stuff.
He brings a somewhat different view of warfare, having been a grunt in Nam. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:01:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

>> Well, another take on things is the jump makes you 4 dimensional. And
>> while around other 3d objects that have been converted you are pretty
>> much ok. But just wait until your senses have to deal with *real* 4d
>> objects. 
>> 
>> This gets around the "you can only perceive 3d" bit. :-)
>
>
> Doh! There goes the jump bubble! :-)

That's the boundary of the field that keeps you "4-dimensional". That's
why going past it dumps you into realspace in tiny pieces.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:05:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

> Robert Heinlein wrote some excellent "hard" science fiction starting in
> the 1950s.

Actually, he started in the mid-to-late *30s*. All of Future History
stories (well the first batch) were written *before* 1950. Not until
Time Enough for Love (1970s?) did he re-visit that series.

> It's been said of him that when he imagines a new world, he
> imagines it right down to the shoelaces.

He and his wife spent a *week* doing orbital calculations by hand (it
was 1950) on *huge* sheets of butcher paper for the sake of 3 lines in
"Space Cadet".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:23:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Humour?

In mail you write:

>>   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
>> most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
>> functioning cameras in every corridor.
>
> I've never read that one, but I did think Heinlien's "Friday" had good
> treatment of the issue.  There were cameras, but you never knew for sure
> if they were being monitored or not.  And there was a good story ('Oath
> of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle) about an arcology and the
> security issues there.  (Tho' the diving board on the roof to put off
> would be suicides was a bit over the top...)

For a good taste of whate life might be like on a world with a
ridiculously high law level, try David Drake's "Lacey and his Friends".
The Lacey stories are in a world where the *only* place cameras don't
cover is the keypads people use to enter their access codes. 

It's interesting to note that even in a world like that, crime is still
possible. And it's even possible to get away with murder. Damn
difficult, but possible.

ps. I thought the diving board was a nice touch.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:30:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

> In the late 50's and early 60's he started writing novels with more adult
> themes, starting, IMHO with his greatest, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
> followed by Stranger in a Strange Land. Others in this era are Starship
> Troopers, and the capstone of his Future History series, Time Enough for
> Love.

"Stranger in a Strange Land" predates "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by
quite a bit. 

Here's (roughly) the order of his later books:

Starship Troopers
Stranger in a Strange Land
Glory Road
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Time Enough For Love
I Will Fear No Evil (the absolute low point in his writings)
Number of the Beast
.....

> All the Flandry of Terra books you can find by Fritz Liebler. Actually,
> anything by Fritz Liebler is good, but the Flandry series have contributed
> to Traveller canon.

The Flandry stories are by Poul Anderson. He's also the author of the
Polesotechnic(?) League stories which are set in the same universe as
the Flandry stories, only some centuries earlier. They are even closer
to Traveller. 

Fritz Lieber, jr. (Sr. was a well known Shakespearen actor) is best
know for the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser fantasy stories. His SF isn't as well
know, and isn't very Traveller like.

> H. Beam Piper's Space Viking was translated almost directly into
> Traveller. (The Sword Worlds confederation, despite anything _anyone_ says
> has been translplanted directly into the Spinward Marches) His Little
> Fuzzy novels (Little Fuzzy and Fuzzy Sapiens) while not very hard SF are
> utterly kneeslapping rib-hurting funny.

They found the manuscript Piper's third Fuzzy novel and printed it in
the late 80s. Look for "The Other Human Race".

Roger MacBride Allen has written some good stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:42:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

In mail you write:

> Wasn't it Louis Wu who was forced to go into hyperspace with
> the ship's hull completely transparent? The only visible object,
> the mass detector, stretched, wrapped around and consumed his
> entire 4pi steradians of view. Iiiiieeeeeee.

Worse, he made the mistake of looking "up". His entire field of view
was hyperspace, and the description of what happened then is a classic.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:24:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship's explosions (was Re: Rate of Fire)

In mail you write:

> OK, I'm curious.  You have a Laser hit the fuel tank, pass through, and
> pierce the interior passageways of the ship.  Obviously you are expeling
> LHyd into space (until a baffle seals the hole), but you are also
> spewing it into the ship.
>
> Suppose the ship had not been vented, normal atmosphere available.
>
> I am assuming a fire starts where the laser pierces the bulkhead - LHyd
> spews all over it.  What happens?
>
> 1) Lots of fire - with H2 feeding
>
> 2) Interior explosion
>
> 3) LHyd puts out fire (cools it below ignition point) and floods
> passageway (until a baffle seals the hole)
>
> 4) Something totally else

4 is most likely. It's not certain that a fire would start in the first
place. If you did have a fire, it'd be in "mid air" somewhere between
the air rushing in, and the LH2 vaporizing. 

Remember, LH2 doesn't burn. H2 *gas* burns. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:08:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: typo

>  This is probably best treated solely as a chargen artifact from CT.
>Otherwise we have 15 billion citizens directly administered by an
                      ^^^^
  Oops. Trillion?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:37:01 -0700
From: Eric Evans <ebevans@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Science Fiction Authors

It looks like I may be the only Cordwainer Smith fan on the list; I can't
imagine the Vilani or Zhodani without thinking of the Instrumentality of
Mankind. He's a bit far out, and you can't use much of his stuff directly
("forgettys," "go-captains," Johnny Joy Tree, "battle hypnosis") but it can
give a good ideas.

I've even created two minor human races based on Cordwainer Smith ideas:

The Allamani, a race made up of Solomani cold-sleep settlers who ended up
on a world that whose environment included pathogens that killed all female
humans at the age of puberty. I even used the word "klopt" for their single
gender/sex, which is a blatant crib from "The Crime and the Glory of
Commander Suzdal."

The Kaahiniin, a minor race with jumpspace intolerance (in my
interpretation of the Traveller universe, jump technology is separate from
jumpspace containment technology--it was much easier to send items through
jumpspace than to send people through and keep them sane). They experience
pain at levels that rapidly drive them mad even when protected by the most
sophisticated jumpspace damping fields. Kaahiniin either travel low or
undergo sophisticated neurosurgery to dampen their senses of touch, taste,
hearing and smell; after the surgery, they are able to function in
jumpspace, though their ability to function as "normal" beings is
drastically curtailed.

I didn't attempt to integrate these races into the canonical Imperium, but
rather placed them (initially) in the Trojan Reach sector and then, when
Atlas of the Imperium came out, decided to shift my whole campaign to a
version of the mid-Long Night period that has been superseded by events.

Kaahin "scanners" were always effective heavies; I loved doing their loud,
screeching voices and forcing my players to speak so that I could lipread.

- -----------------------------------------
Eric Evans

"There seemed an
                 inevitability in
          degradation"
			  --T.E. Lawrence

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2011
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2012



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Pocket Empires Question
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Traveller Reading Material
Re: Sci-Fi Authors
Re: The Essential Science Fiction Author's List
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)
Re: Who was Heinlein?
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Economic data
Re: Humour?
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?
Re: Who was Heinlein?
Re: Science Fiction Authors
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:59:22 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Pocket Empires Question

This has come up in the setup of a game I'm about to run.

One of the players upon reading the rules has noted that using
strategic weapons costs you prestigue, his question is: does this
also apply to responding in kind the use of strategic weapons?

eg if PE A uses nukes on a world owned by PE B, does PE B lose
prestigue if it then uses nukes on PE A in retaliation?

My thoughts are that they shouldn't, but I'd appreciate anybody
elses thoughts on the matter.

Thank you

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:50:39 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

>In a message dated 97-10-23 09:57:22 EDT, you write:

><< 
> On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
> released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>  >>

>Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.

>Marc

<mental picture of Marc Miller in Arnie mode storming IG, "I'll be Back">

Not wanting to be the one who interupts the well deserved mad cheering and
hollering thats going on or anything, but while your about it do you think
you could twist a few arms to get the errata for the supplements already
published out too? I mean the errata on their website hasn't been updated
since CSC (there has been the odd mistake since then).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:11:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

In mail you write:

> On 10/24/97 at 07:33 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> said:
>
>> I'd want to put a word in for Kim Stanley Robinson.  His Mars books rock.
>
> If I'm not mistaken it should be...her!  Her, Mars books rock. ;->

Kim is also a male name. And the reveiwers keep saying "him".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:01:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Reading Material

In mail you write:

>
> I just wanted to add to the whole Sci-Fi Novel thread by adding one of my 
> personal faves.
>
> Anyone out there read "High Crusade" (author escapes me at the moment)

Poul Anderson. He's written an *incredible* amount of stuff, all good.
Last time I had my collection mostly on shelves (as opposed to boxes),
he had something like 5 or six *feet* of shelf space. And all of that
was *paperbacks*!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:57:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Authors

In mail you write:

> Heinlein was great until I read "Number of the Beast" and now
> I refuse to read him because anyone who can write a book so 
> tedious, silly, pointless, inane and character driven should
> be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Do give him another chance. Even if you didn't like that one, I suspect
you'd enjoy "Friday", "Job: A Comedy of Justice", and the collections
that were issued after that point. It's also a good idea to pick up the
re-issues of "Red Planet", "The Puppet Masters" and "Stranger in a
Strange Land" as all have changes from the older editions. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:22:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Essential Science Fiction Author's List

In mail you write:

>  Anvil, Chris

Alas, 90% of Anvil's stuff is short stories that have never been
collected. He's one of the reasons I have a *huge* collection of
Analog. 

>  Leister, Murry

That's Leinster, Murray. Beside being an SF author, he invented
front-projection as a special effects technique.

His Med Service stories are good for Traveller, as are the other
stories in that universe.

>  Norse, Robert

Sure you don't mean "Alan E. Nourse"?

> -W-

Williamson, Jack	Seetee Shock
			Seetee Ship

			The Legion of Space
			The Cometeers

			With Folded Hands (and the other stories about
			the "Humanoids")


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:18:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

In mail you write:

> But *Steve* Barnes... Sensei Steve has been known to throw me across the
> room as a greeting.  The man is a human dynamo.  He's a master of about ten
> martial arts and reaches Tai-Chi at conventions.  He's promised to kill me
> in an upcoming book, continuing my desire to appear dead in more novels
> than any other fan in history.  (I'm already in one..)

Steve is a fun guy to be around.

But mentioning him reminds my of a local writer. Steve Perry. His
Matador series and Black Steel series are good reads. And point out
just what "one man" can do, even to a huge empire.

And I think Hengbar would love many of the weapons. He probably
wouldn't like my favorite, the spetzdod. It takes too much practice and
skill.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:52:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The whole piracy thread (recap)

In mail you write:

>> I'm not sure I understand your position.  Are you for or against
>> standardization?
>
> Im for it... I truely can not believe the various compaines would not try
> to at least try to conform with each other - if not for a better profit
> margin...

You mean like the various car makers use interchangeable parts? Or how
Microsoft enhances their proifits by making sure that competitors
software works as well with their OSes as Microsoft software does? (1)

(1) For those who aren't aware of it, Microsoft has a long history of
sticking routines in their OSes to either prevent third party software
from working with them (Windows 3.1 was *specifically* written so that
it wouldn't run under DR-DOS), or reduce performance (Someone recemtly
discovered that Windows 95 checks to see if Netscape is running, and if
it is, it disables a routine that smooths out the "jaggies" in large
fonts).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:33:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Who was Heinlein?

In mail you write:

>         Well, actually, Robert A. Heinlein was one of the most influential
> SF writers ever.  I'd rank him right up there with Clarke and Asimov.  He
> had a very libertarian view of things, and his work was heavily influenced
> (IMHO) by the fact that he got invalided out of the U.S. Navy early on in
> WWII.  This led him to take a somewhat (IMHO and YMMV) idealized view of
> things military in his writing.  I get the feeling that he never quite got
> over it.

He was invalided out in *1930*. Long before the War. And he did do a
lot of war-related work during WWII (in the lab).

>         But honestly, run, do not walk, to your local SF bookstore and try
> and find _anything_ by Heinlein.  The vast majority of his stuff is really
> good SF.  I find that even his early, "juvenile" novels are still very
> readable.

Actually, the juveniles date from the *middle* of his career. At least
a third of his work was written before 1940. 

Among other things, Heinlein pretty much invented *all* the Time
Travel plots, as well as the Generation ship. And he was the first SF
author to be published in "mainstream" magazines such as The Saturday
Evening Post and Blue Book.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:01:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

In mail you write:

> Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  Heinlien's mentor, and originator of many of the
> themes used so often in "classic" space opera (including powered armor, 
> later made famous by Heinlien in _Starship Troopers_ and adopted into
> Traveller as "Battle Dress").  Read the Lensmen Series (_Triplanetary_,
> _First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_, _Second-Stage Lensman_, and _Children of
> the Lens_ if I remember correctly).

"Triplanetary", "First Lensman", "Galactic Patrol", "Gray Lensman",
"Second-Stage Lensman", "Children of the Lens". There's also a novel
set in the Lensman universe, but not part of the main stream of the
stories "The Vortex Blaster".

Smith is know for writing the very *first* truly *interstellar* SF
story. That's "The Skylark of Space", first story in the Skylark series
(the others are "Skylark Three", "Skylark of Valeron", and "Skylark
Duquesne"). This series is notable for one of the most "admirable" long
term villians ever: Dr. Marc C. "Blackie" Duquesne.

> James H. Schmitz.  Whatever you can find - if nothing else, NESFA has _The
> Very Best of James H. Schmitz_ in print.  Particularly, read _Legacy_ (aka
> _A Tale of Two Clocks_) for an idea of the kinds of things you can do with
> forerunner civilizations.  If you're going to do a heavily psionic campaign,
> I feel that _Universe Against Her_, _Telzey Toy_, and _The Lion Game_ are
> must-read books.  I particularly like the way that Schmitz handles psionics,
> but then again, I'm a Schmitz fan.

And "A Nice Day For Screaming, and other Tales of the Hub" ("the Hub"
being the area of the galaxy that the above stories are set in). It's
*very* hard to find, but has a number of short stories that are
otherwise hard to find.

Also, "The Witches of Karres" by Schmitz is very good, though set in a
different universe.

> George O. Smith.  _Venus Equilateral_.

Better, try to find "The Complete Venus Equilateral" as it includes a
couple of related stories.

> Since nobody can be serious all the time, check out _Earthman's Burden_
> by Anderson and Dickson.  It's SF, it's funny, and it's a good read.

And if you are a truly *evil* GM, you can put the Hokas on that planet
your players just discovered. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:29:40 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economic data

Derek Wildstar writes:
>The Gross Planetary Product (GPP) and Taxation rules from Striker (original
>edition) were used to compute the GPP in Local Credits.  The Striker exchange
>table was used to convert these to Imperial Standard (Port-A, TL-15) Credits,
>which were then taxed at the suggested rates.

This is not quite correct. It would be if all ships built in the Imperium
were TL 15. Credits spent on any ship built at TLs lower than 15 would count
for more. You'd have 1% more TL 14 ships, 11% more TL 13 ships, 17% more
TL 12 ships, etc. than your figures result in.

>The Imperium imposes a tax burden of about 1% of the GIP,

Where did you get that figure? If it is supposed to be the ~30% of military
taxes passed on to the interstellar power by member systems that _Striker_
calls for, then you haven't accounted for any of the local planetary navies
in your figures.

>Also relevant to the piracy debate is the shipbuilding and maintenance
>capacity of the world's shipyards.

Shipbuilding, yes, but not maintenance. If you are using TCS rules to
establish the size of the shipyards then you should also use TCS rules
for maintenance. And that means that shipyard capacity for maintenance
is hidden (Or that maintenance dosen't require shipyard capacity). And
if you think about it, that isn't as screwy as it sounds at first.
Shipyard capacity isn't just a huge floating spacedock. It is also the
skilled workers to perform the work and the mines and factories and
workshops to produce the hull and engines. But you don't need nearly as
many people to give a ship a tuneup that you need to build it, and you
cetainly don't need to replace even 2% of the hull and engines every year.

BTW. it may also mean that replacement of worn-out ships (as opposed to
shot-up ships) is hidden (And that would be geniune shipyard capacity).
OTOH it is possble (propable) that the authors of TCS just didn't
imagine than anyone would ever need to replace a worn-out ship, most
ships in TCS campaigns being retired the hard way. Still, if we played a
TCS game and spent 100 years without fighting anyone, the fleets would
be as strong as ever, without anyone ever having paid for any replacements.
So by strict TCS rules replacements are included in the 10% maintenance
figure.

>Picking a force mix rather arbitrarily, I come up with the following numbers
>for the ships that compose the available forces.  You can choose your own
>force mix, and generate different numbers of vessels.  It's worth remembering
>that these figures represent the ability of the starports to construct and
>maintain these ships.
> 
>Category                        %Total Avg Tons    Ships
>- --------------------------------------------------------
>Battleships and Battletenders    30.0%  500,000      611

I don't think that Imperial battleships average 500,000 T, though ships
and tenders together might.

>Battledriders and Monitors       30.0%  200,000     3953

Battleriders won't average 200,000 T. The largest possible tender of
1,000,000 would only be able to carry 3 of them. Battleriders would
max 100,000 and (IMO) average 50,000.

Monitors may be bigger, but the Imperial Navy wouldn't build many, if any.

>Cruisers and Fleet Intruders     10.0%   50,000    24615

According to _Rebellion_ the above three categories together should amount
to about 40,000 (Well, 20,000 for the regular fleets and an equal amount of
money spent of the colonial forces; the force mix may be different for the
colonial forces). Always provided you're not including planetary navies in
your tax figure.

Also, if the force mix in _Fifth Frontier War_ is representative of the
whole Imperial navy, the proportion of battleship to cruiser squadrons
is more like 1:1. If battleships are traditionally arranged in 8 ship
squadrons and cruisers in 4-8 ship squadrons. the proportion of battleships
to cruisers would be about 4:3.

OH, and battleship squadrons to scout squadrons would be 4:1, but I have
no notion of how many scouts you need to group to make a FFW squadron.

>Fleet Escorts                     3.0%   10,000   221497
>Support and Supply Vessels       16.9%  100,000     9595
>Patrol, Enforcement and Convoy    0.1%    1,000   984432
>System Defense Boats             10.0%    5,000  3281417

If the 1% dosen't include the planetary navy, then IMO there should be no
SDBs included in these figures. I don't see the Imperial navy building any
SDBs for themselves.
 
>If they were all 400-ton "light" SDBs, there could be over 200 thousand
>SDBs in EACH SYSTEM (the crews alone would exceed the population of most
>worlds).

I think you must be making a mistake here. A 400 T SDB takes the naval taxes
of 240,000 people to maintain (If they earn your average  of Cr13,000/year)
and has a crew of 12. I think you should be able to man all you can build.

>Given that the bulk of these ships would be deployed at some distance from
>their bases, it is reasonable to assume that a total of 4 ships will be
>required to maintain one ship on patrol at any given time (one ship on
>patrol, one in port, and one each in transit to and from the patrol zone). 

I think you are being overly cautious here. Very few ships would be
stationed more than 2 jumps from their base (it's hard to find any place
in the Imperium that is more than 6 parsecs from a suitable world). 
Assuming that 3 month tours of duty are standard and double crews are
used, a ship would spend about 36 days of every 90 in transit (four jumps
of average duration 9 days). Even with another 9 days spent in port (on the
average -- every fourth tour would require a 14 day maintenance, but the
three others would not take nearly as long) you'd get 50% use out of the
ship. And for those systems only one jump from the base it would be even
more. (For those rare ones more than 6 parsecs away you'd use high-jump
ships).

A fleet tender may even enable you to keep the ships out a far higher
percentage of the time.

>BuildTons -- Starship Construction (Port "A") Capacity, in Displacement Tons.
>MaintTons -- Starship Overhaul (Port "B") Capability, in Displacement Tons.

None of this goes to maintenance if we use TCS rules, but it can all be
used to build SDBs. You don't need to use Port "A" capacity for that at
all.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:34:36 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Humour?

Leonard Erickson writes:

>ps. I thought the diving board [in "Oath of Fealthy"] was a nice touch.

Yeah, but you must agree that it was over the top...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Look! Smoke signals! Can you read them, Chief?"

"Of course. Ah... 'Puff, puff puff, puff; puff, puff puff, puff,
apostrophe puff, puff, puff puff, exclamation puff'.

"What does it mean?"

"'Help, my blanket's caught fire!'"

                                --- _Round the Horne_ radio sketch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:52:46 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

For the records here are my top ten:

Van Vogt
Robert Heinlein (early years)
Larry Niven (great guy to drink with)
Jerry Pournelle
David Drake
David Weber
Tanith Lee
Andre Norton
William Gibson
S.M. Stirling

With honorable mention to Orson Scott Card

Let me know what you all think of these.
Pat Connaughton


- ----------
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Top Ten SF authors...
> Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 7:33 PM
> 
> 
> 
> John Kovalic wrote:
> 
> >
> >My ten would be:
> >
> >Asimov, Issac
> >Bradbury, Ray
> >Clarke, Arthur C
> >Dick, Philip
> >Heinlein, Robert Anson
> >Herbert, Frank
> >LeGuin, Ursula
> >Niven, Larry
> >Silverberg, Robert
> >Vonnegut, Kurt
> 
> 
> 	I'd want to put a word in for Kim Stanley Robinson.  His Mars books
> rock.  OTOH, that's pretty heavy company there...
> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:28:55 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?

	...'cos he finally found out why they'd nicknamed him "Jones".


<duck, run, hide>


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:32:33 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Who was Heinlein?

Glenn Goffin wrote:

>
>> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>
>> directed by Verhoeven (sp?) the guy who did Robocop and Showgirls, and
>
>> splattered with brains"; basically, a lot of fans are worried that the
>> aforementioned philosophical component of the novel will get badly mangled.
>
>Philosophical component?  In a Verhoeven film?  It's hard to type while
>laughing so hard, really, you are just too funny, let me get my breath
>back ...
>
>It's just a coincidence that the movie and the book have the same name,
>I'm sure.  (I have to wipe my eyes ... philosophical component ... what
>a card.)

	Well, sure!  Didn't you pick up on the postmodernist existentialist
in-joke that Showgirls was built around?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:31:04 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Authors

 Eric Evans <ebevans@fas.harvard.edu> noted:

>>I've even created two minor human races based on Cordwainer Smith ideas<<

Nice touches! On the topic of specific authors in Traveller, my favorite
campaign was one that I set in a Philip K. Dick universe. VERY non-cannon.
:-) I even broke out GURPS: Illuminati to help.

Otherwise mine tend to be somewhat Asimovian/Nivonian in flavor. Well, with
a touch of Reteif thrown in here and there...

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:59:06 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> 
> > From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> 
> > Wasn't it Louis Wu who was forced to go into hyperspace with
> > the ship's hull completely transparent? The only visible object,
> 
> It wasn't Louis Wu, but it was a great short story.  The hull (a single
> enormous molecule) was destroyed by contact with antimatter, and the two
> men aboard had to return home with hyperspace right in their faces:
> > entire 4pi steradians of view. Iiiiieeeeeee.
> 
> --Glenn

I actually ran this as a Traveller mini-adventure. My characters were
assigned to discover what happened to a patron's father, who jumped
into an empty hex. The patron, with the PCs, jumped into the same
hex, where they encountered the antimatter planet. 

They sent a probe (read: pushed something out the airlock) down
to it and watch it vaporize. They were really puzzled by the radiation
and by the smooth surface. They ALMOST landed on it when one of them
figured it out (he's a Niven fan).

I was in a truly evil mood when I came up with that one!

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:06:36 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> Hmm. Is Larry Niven really God? I've read some of his stuff - some is truly
> brilliant, like Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, Legacy Of Heorot.
> 
Agreed.

> Some is above arerage but a bit in-jokey (Fallen Angels)

Oh dear. I'd forgotten about that. Easily his worst. Although,
whenever I hear about some environmental group protesting a technical
advance (like the recent probe to Saturn) I'm reminded of this book.

> 
> Some is yawnful, filled with meaningless undifferentiated characters, eg
> Moat Around Murcheson's Eye.

Wasn't this the original title of Mote in God's Eye? Are you referring
to Gripping Hand?

> 
> Even Niven has bad days.
> 
Yes but far fewer than I have. That's what makes him worthy of my
worship! :-)

> Which is nice, because there's so much yuk out there right now that I don't
> read ANYTHING that isn't:
> A: Recommended by someone I respect, or:
> B: By someone I've read and liked before.
> 

I'm the same way. In most of the bookstores I visit, there seems to
be more Star Wars and Star Trek novels than original ones. It makes
me think we're in a Long Night for sci-fi -- building on others' 
work, minimal creativity, worshipping the past.

> 
> WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SF/TRAVELLER STORIES:
> 
The Mote in God's Eye, which has a VERY Travelleresque feel to it
as far as nobles and the Navy goes.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:54:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> 
> > All the Flandry of Terra books you can find by Fritz Liebler. Actually,
> > anything by Fritz Liebler is good, but the Flandry series have contributed
> > to Traveller canon.
> 
> It's Poul Anderson.  If you substitute "Poul Anderson" for "Fritz
> Liebler" in the quotation above, everything Bruce says is true.
> 
> Bruce's list is excellent.  Go enjoy yourself.

and it's Fritz _Lieber_, not Liebler, like someone I work with and whose
name I write much more often :-/

Thank you for the compliment!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2012
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2013



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Silent Death: Traveller
[T97#2004] Heinlein and Others...
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))
Re: Traveller Reading Material
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dem
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dem
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
_Fallen Angel's_
CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: (pro-) "Pirate" ships
Crime in high-tech worlds Was: Re: Humour?
Re: Why use CORPS?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:34:00 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

I'd like to stick my .02Cr in for Allen Steele.  He tends to write about
the normal average guy dealing with life in the future.  Great stuff.

And BTW, Kim Stanley Robinson is a man.

John






It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:37:23 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Silent Death: Traveller

I have no idea if the rumors are true, but last weekend I was at a con in
Knoxville, TN where a guy was running a conversion from Traveller to Silent
Death.  It was great!

He also then ran the ground battle using Kryomek rules, and then on Sunday
( which I missed because I needed to leave ) he ran the results of the
space battle and the ground battle as a RPG using the T4 rules.  Great
idea, great concept, and a great time was had by myself and the others
playing.

So all in all, it sounds like a fabulous idea to me. I hope IG and ICE can
work it out.

John




It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:38:19 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2004] Heinlein and Others...

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:26:48 -0400, Derek Wildstar
<wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:

>Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  Heinlien's mentor, and originator of many of the
>themes used so often in "classic" space opera (including powered armor,=20
>later made famous by Heinlien in _Starship Troopers_ and adopted into
>Traveller as "Battle Dress").  Read the Lensmen Series (_Triplanetary_,
>_First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_, _Second-Stage Lensman_, and _Children =
of
>the Lens_ if I remember correctly).  If you really like the Lensmen =
books,
>pick up a copy of _GURPS Lensmen_ from SJG (it's the supplement that =
made
>me go out and buy GURPS - but then again, I'm a Doc Smith fan).

The Lensman series consisted of six books: TRIPLANETARY, FIRST
LENSMAN, GALACTIC PATROL, GRAY LENSMAN, SECOND-STAGE LENSMAN, and
CHILDREN OF THE LENS.  In addition, he wrote another book set in
the same universe, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX, and David Kyle was
given permission to write three other novels in the same
universe, THE DRAGON LENSMAN, LENSMAN FROM RIGEL, and Z-LENSMAN.

On a different note, Heinlein wrote another novel that I enjoyed,
although it is less "hard SF" than I normally like - British and
recent US printings call it "Sixth Column"; older US printings
call it "The Day After Tomorrow".

Yet a different kind of story that he wrote that I also enjoyed
was "Farnham's Freehold".  Rather than spoil either for you, I
will simply tell you to go find them.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:33:26 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dementia))

At 12:36 pm 10/24/97 -0500, John Kovalic wrote:
>
>
>>This is a partial list of Science Fiction Authors I have read and enjoyed.
>>I'm *sure* I'm missing many good authors, but my TML friends will help me
>>complete it.
>Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You


   Top 3, in order

	Heinlein, Robert
	Niven/Pournelle collaborations
	Cherryh, C J

   Remaining 7, in no particular order
	Pohl, Fred
	Saberhagen
	McAffrey, Anne
	Bujold, Lois
	Dickson, Gordon
	Brin, David
	Zahn, Timothy

   Honorable Mention
	Bester, Alfred
	Del Rey, Lester
	Drake, David
	Foster, Alan Dean
	Laumer, Keith
	Piper, H Beam
	Robinson, Spider
	Schmitz, James
	Sheffield, Charles
	Leinster, Murray
	White, James
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:24:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reading Material

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:
> I just wanted to add to the whole Sci-Fi Novel thread by adding one of my 
> personal faves.
> 
> Anyone out there read "High Crusade" (author escapes me at the moment)

Poul Anderson.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

In a message dated 97-10-24 23:51:48 EDT, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:

<< Any thoughts/recommendations?
  >>

I'd like to recommend David Weber...he is the author of several different
books, here are the ones I know of:

Oath of Swords (Fantasy)
Path of the Fury (Sci-Fi)
The Dahak series (Sci-fi)
     Mutineers Moon
     The Armageddon Inheritance
     Heirs of Empire

Insurrection (Sci-fi, set in the STARFIRE universe)
Crusade (Sci-fi, also set in the STARFIRE universe)

And best of all, the Honor Harrington series (All Sci-fi, mix of SF and
historical fiction)

On Basilisk Station
The Honor of the Queen
The Short Victorious War
Field of Dishonor
Flag in Exile
Honor among Enemies
In Enemy Hands

In my opinion, the Honor Harrington series are his best works...his
inspiration seems to be drawn from history (The Napoleonics Wars) and from
the C.S. Forester character Horatio Hornblower.  They are great books for
ideas about how to play both noble characters and Naval characters as well.
 The universe dosen't *exactly* fit well with the Traveller universe (mainly
due to differences in FTL/STL movement, and weapons systems & defenses) but
many ideas can be readily adapted to a Trav campaign.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)
                            

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

In a message dated 97-10-24 23:51:48 EDT, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:

<< Any thoughts/recommendations?
  >>

I'd like to recommend David Weber...he is the author of several different
books, here are the ones I know of:

Oath of Swords (Fantasy)
Path of the Fury (Sci-Fi)
The Dahak series (Sci-fi)
     Mutineers Moon
     The Armageddon Inheritance
     Heirs of Empire

Insurrection (Sci-fi, set in the STARFIRE universe)
Crusade (Sci-fi, also set in the STARFIRE universe)

And best of all, the Honor Harrington series (All Sci-fi, mix of SF and
historical fiction)

On Basilisk Station
The Honor of the Queen
The Short Victorious War
Field of Dishonor
Flag in Exile
Honor among Enemies
In Enemy Hands

In my opinion, the Honor Harrington series are his best works...his
inspiration seems to be drawn from history (The Napoleonics Wars) and from
the C.S. Forester character Horatio Hornblower.  They are great books for
ideas about how to play both noble characters and Naval characters as well.
 The universe dosen't *exactly* fit well with the Traveller universe (mainly
due to differences in FTL/STL movement, and weapons systems & defenses) but
many ideas can be readily adapted to a Trav campaign.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)
                            

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 19:45 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols & FF&S Recoil

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971023233327.010e3b68@mail.qrc.com>

Derek,

> Yep.  The only one I ever had in one of my games was the PPMP-16X (Plasma
> Pistol, Man-Portable, TL-16, Experimental).  It was fired a grand total of
> once (and broke the wrist of the Vargr who shot it).  Oh, yes - it was a
> miss, too.

Funny, th only character to have a plasma pistol in my game was also a 
Vargr...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 19:45 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19971024162734.3eefa67c@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> >> Also, don't forget Lucifer's Hammer, a story about a comet hitting
> >> Earth.
> >
> >No, *do* forget it. Footfall without the baby elephants.
>  
> Actually, I prefered LH to FF.  The image of the surfer just sticks with
> me, and I found myself caring about the characters more.

Actually, I can't remember a single character out of either book. Neither 
are great books.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 19:45 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dem

In-Reply-To: <v03007809b07644770d85@[199.184.183.193]>

John,

> Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
> know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
> familiar with? The ten most ESSENTIAL authors on this list (not necessarily
> as far as Traveller is concerned, although perhaps that would make another
> good Top-10 list...)

Hokay. Mine's a mixture of the best and the most important (not necessarily 
the same thing - Asimov isn't the best author in the world, but you *must* 
read *some* of his work).

Asimov, Issac
Banks, Iain M
Bester, Alfred
Bujold. Lois MacMaster
Clarke, Arthur C
Harrison, Harry
Heinlein, Robert Anson
Herbert, Frank
Niven, Larry
Williams, Walter Jon

(of course, if you ask me again tomorrow, I'll give a totally different 
list).
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 19:45 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re: Jumpspace dem

In-Reply-To: <v03007809b07644770d85@[199.184.183.193]>

John,

> Nice list. Now, how would people here narrow it down to a Top-10 list. You
> know. Ten authors you think ALL SF readers or new devotees should be
> familiar with? The ten most ESSENTIAL authors on this list (not necessarily
> as far as Traveller is concerned, although perhaps that would make another
> good Top-10 list...)

Hokay. Mine's a mixture of the best and the most important (not necessarily 
the same thing - Asimov isn't the best author in the world, but you *must* 
read *some* of his work).

Asimov, Issac
Banks, Iain M
Bester, Alfred
Bujold. Lois MacMaster
Clarke, Arthur C
Harrison, Harry
Heinlein, Robert Anson
Herbert, Frank
Niven, Larry
Williams, Walter Jon

(of course, if you ask me again tomorrow, I'll give a totally different 
list).
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 13:23:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

On 10/25/97 at 01:11 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>In mail you write:

>> On 10/24/97 at 07:33 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> said:
>>
>>> I'd want to put a word in for Kim Stanley Robinson.  His Mars books rock.
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken it should be...her!  Her, Mars books rock. ;->

>Kim is also a male name. And the reveiwers keep saying "him".

I was mistaken.  I was thinking of Jennie Robinson rather than Kim Stanley
Robinson.  Sorry.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 13:41:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: _Fallen Angel's_

On 10/25/97 at 08:06 AM,  Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> said:

>> Some is above arerage but a bit in-jokey (Fallen Angels)

>Oh dear. I'd forgotten about that. Easily his worst. Although, whenever I
>hear about some environmental group protesting a technical advance (like
>the recent probe to Saturn) I'm reminded of this book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Fallen Angels written to be an inside
joke for the "Fandom" community? If that's true, then there's probably a
lot folks didn't "get" unless they were insiders.

Say Doug, is this the one where you were killed? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:51:20 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

	I know it sounds silly, but I'm sure that as kids you would have
killed to take your vacations in one of these.  The ejection seats alone
would have added a whole new dimension to the usual sibling rivalries :).



RV from hell (TL7)
Designed by R.D. Elliott

Summary:
     8.00 displacement ton box streamlined;  71.9 tonnes;  MCr 1.99
Chassis:
     112 kL box streamlined (7.5 m long x 3.9 m wide x 3.9 m high);
Structure: 674 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.20 cm thick
     Armour: 12 front (6.0 cm, moderate slope), 10 sides (6.0 cm), 10 rear
(5.0 cm), 2 top (3.2 cm), 10 bottom (6.0 cm)
Performance:
     3.50 MW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 4.38 kL of
high-grade hcarb (4.38 tonnes), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 3.50 MW wheels;  Maximum Speed: 100 km/h;  Range:
998 km;  Agility: +3DM
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, 3 gunners, Navigator, 4 Shrill childrens;  9 crew
stations with ejection seats;  6 roomy ejection  passenger seats
Armament:
     Weapon                Damage    Range          Shots    Reloads   Notes
     Organ Rocket-5        25 exp    Very Short     50                2 gunners
     Missile, Light AT-7   26 (16 expVery Short     1       4         1 gunner
     Machinegun, Medium-6  5         Medium         200               coaxial
     Machinegun, Medium-6  5         Medium         200               coaxial
     Flamethrower-7-7      2         Very Short     20                coaxial
     Flamethrower-7-7      2         Very Short     20                coaxial
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL7, MilSpec, DirAnt, DirFnd)
Sensors:
     Passive Subregional Radar (1 W, MilSpec)  Resolution: 50 cm per km of range
Other:
     Options: sunroof, entertainment centre, recreation space, wet bar, 
kitchen for 6 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: anti-theft system
     trailer hitch for 5.00 tonnes; 23.9 kL of cargo space


Designed with CSC (software =A9Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:30:05 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother

>At 04:37 PM 10/20/97 +0200, Tim Connors wrote:
>>Paul D. Owensby writes:
>>>b) there ain't no friggin way the Imperium is going to be able to keep up
>>>to date records on every 40 and 50 year old freighter on a subsector-
>>>wide basis, not to mention a sector-wide database,

>>Why would it be any more difficult than, say, keeping a record of all cars
>>in the US?...

>>It's not that not appearing on the list will be any particular hardship
>>for any ship with its papers in order, it's that such a ship is suspicious
>>and can expect more than cursory attention.

>        While I have nothing but my thoroughly unenjoyable 4 years
>        as a member of Uncle Sugar's military establishment to use
>        as evidence, I doubt that there is any single governmental
>        group in this country that could provide an accurate record
>        of the location and ownership of all the cars in this
>        country.


Two points that make life different.  Ships are a _lot_ more expensive than
cars, to the tune of four or five orders of magnitude.

While the total size of the task is roughly the same as keeping track of
all the cars in the country, the thing tracked are valuable enough to
justify some effort.  Perhaps the Imperium would not do it, but some
organization would - they are just too valuable not to.

Consider, even a measaly free trader, at some 20 MCr, IIRC, could justify
the full lifetime services of an investigator to go find it and return it,
if it saved a 10% insurance payment, and a 50% replacement on a 3000t ship
could jsutify an entire mercentary company being formed.  Now clearly,
there will not be one person assigned to each lost ship, but I coud see a
few thousand people assigned to a few thousand lost ships, if the problem
were that large.

It all comes down to one simple rule - if insurance is involved, or if the
society has any grasp of probability, they will spend somewhere up to the
expected cost of loss to prevent the loss.

Were ships three orders of magnitude cheaper, then it would be more  like
present day autos - a loss will take sveral hours of an adjuster's time,
but a decent scam can fool them for quite some time, as it is not worth two
weeks of an investigators time.

>The city I live in can't even discover
>the identities of the owners of the abandoned cars that are
>left on the streets. I doubt that an empire with a standard
>crossing time of better than a year could even keep track
>of the locally owned stuff.

Locally owned hot grav cars no, but those abandoned cars might get more
attention if they were each worth a hundred million dollars, and if some
insurer somewhere was paying for them, or if they had some similar write
off value.

Present day cars are not worth a day of a foot patrolelr's time, in
general.  Even a junked starship is likely worth a bit of effort.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:09:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

At 10:37 1997-10-24 +0100, Nick wrote:
>> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for=
 the
>> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>
>*Four* cheers for Marc.  Hip, hip...
>
>This is such good news I think it justifies the "me too" messages.

Me too :-)

I was rather irritated that the book was delayed, but I am no longer.
Properly finished supplements are well worth the wait.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:51:20 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 08:08 PM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas, are you an author as well?  your name sounds familiar.

My ego forces me to assume he meant me.

Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
(usually being chased by villages waving torches)
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:05:21 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: (pro-) "Pirate" ships

At 21:36 1997-10-24 -0700, you wrote:
>  Is it reasonable to assume that a Far Trader with excellent
>armaments can classify as a standard "independent" pirate? It
>is common, can make money legitimately, can J-2, has enough
>cargo to loot a hold, swallow a ship's boat, or get another
>couple parsecs on collapsible tanks.

The ship would probably need to be modified (perhaps adding some armour to
it). Is it at all possible to modify an existing ship without having to
dismantle the whole ship? If it is not possible, the ship would have to be
customized. It would be a good point to make the ship look like a normal
free trader on the outside, since this would attract less suspicious eyes
from the government.

>  This begs the question of whether a transponder transmits
>constantly, or replies when pinged.

If every transpoder transmitted it's signal constantly, the ether would be
filled with various signals. It would only be possible to have it send it's
message when pinged. Can any ship ping another ship, or is it only
government ships that have access to this (at least legally) ?

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:19:36 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Crime in high-tech worlds Was: Re: Humour?

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
>For a good taste of whate life might be like on a world with a
>ridiculously high law level, try David Drake's "Lacey and his Friends".
>The Lacey stories are in a world where the *only* place cameras don't
>cover is the keypads people use to enter their access codes.=20
>
>It's interesting to note that even in a world like that, crime is still
>possible. And it's even possible to get away with murder. Damn
>difficult, but possible.
>
>ps. I thought the diving board was a nice touch.

1984 by George Orwell springs to mind ... although it is very old (1984 has,
after all, already happened). The book is a classic, and if you haven't read
it yet, take the time to do it.

The society within that book is _extremely_ controlled. It is really a
horror-vision of bureaucracy at it's worst.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:02:50 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Why use CORPS?

At 03:50 PM 10/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Let me rephrase his question, "Is there any reason that a random character
>generation system couldn't be developed and used with CORPS? Further, is
>there some reason a career-system couldn't be used with CORPS?"
>
>I don't see why you couldn't, but I'll defer to the CORPS Corps for the
>definitive answer. ;->

You *could*, if you really tried, but you would lose a great deal fo the
flavor.

The problem is that so  many of tha advantages/diads are very vaguely
termed, and the progressive costs is based on the square of the level (A
level two Ally costs 4 SP, a level 5 costs 25 SP).  The smae goes for skills.
>

>The Nutshell version of CORPS has a lot of good ideas (I'd expect that from
>a Greg Porter product), but there were some things that bothered me.  For
>example, the Task System seems to be pretty convoluted.  I quote...

<snip>

>...Now, this might be intuitive after you do it for a while, but it seems
>darn complicated to me.  Sure, if the difficulty level is <= your skill you
>don't even have to roll, but if you do have to roll then you have to:

<more snip>

In the full rules, there's a tiny little table that handles that for you
until you get your feet on the ground.  It becomes intuitive real quick.

>OTOH, I really like some of the ideas in CORPS.  Greg tries to get
>"aptitudes" into the chargen process (if you've been around TML for any
>length of time you know how I feel about skill aptitudes ;-) in a simple
>way.  His idea of Skill Trees with Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary skills
>is a good one.  Greg handles combat, damage, armor, and weapons with a good
>bit of detail, and (as I would expect) well:  lethal and non-lethal damage,
>dual level armor, and using 3G3 almost directly for ranged weapons.  I
>liked what I saw enough to order a copy, which I haven't recieved yet.

Yes!! Another one!  Soon, I will qualify for the toaster oven!!!  (Sorry,
"Ellen" joke)

>I really don't think I'll convert, the skill system bugs me too much, but
>I'll probably steal some ideas from CORPS...just like I have from FUDGE,
>Aftermath, and ever other rpg system I run across.  ;->

Take his mass combat system and run away with it.  Very nice.  We recently
did The Three Stooges meet Agincourt with TL12 weapons.  Lot's of fun!

>Here's a request to the CORPS Corp on TML..If you have developed Skill
>Trees for Traveller, specific chargen procedures, and/or other ways to
>interface the CORP System with the TNE/T4 systems I'd *love* to see them.
>Would you post them, either on TML or directly to me?

*Sigh* I guess I have to finish my conversion stuff now.. I'll post it both
here and on my web pages.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2013
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2014



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: _Fallen Angel's_
Re: THUDDD 7: Heavy Fighter - Request for Proposals
Re: Larry Niven
imperial shipping -- rancke
Weber's Universe
Re: Silent Death: Traveller
Re: (pro-) "Pirate" ships
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?
Re: Crime in high-tech worlds Was: Re: Humour?
Re: [T97#2004] Heinlein and Others...
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Economic Data (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:34:12 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

At 17:23 1997-10-24 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>BTW Why should jumpspace be 4D? The real world is as we all know a 3d
>projection of a 4d thing. We just cannot seem to "see" the 4:th dimension.

But the real world _does drive lots of people insane :-)

Seriously, I do not think that a person could logically go insane just by
looking at something. I visualize jumpspace as a _black_ ... something.

Of course, looking at something when there is nothing to look at can drive
you insane, or at least cause you to hallucinate. Try entering a really dark
cellar or something and stare out in the darkness, without really seeing
anything. After a while, there seems to be movement in the darkness, and you
can faintly visualize objects ...

Who says there really is nothing out there ?

It would be really hard to convince yourself that there is pure nothing
around you while in the middle of it.

And, off course, there are the numerous tales of dissappearing ships, and
strange sensor disturbances...

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:40:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)

>BTW, who's Arthur C. Clarke? :)

He wrote 2001 ... and a few more SF books.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:55:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 09:44 1997-10-24 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>Well, I think we've killed his reading budget for the next year....

As well as the time I have available for other activities (like studying,
eating and sleeping)...

Thank you all for locking up my spare time for about the rest of my lifetime=
 :-)

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:52:36 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: _Fallen Angel's_

At 01:41 PM 10/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 10/25/97 at 08:06 AM,  Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> said:

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Fallen Angels written to be an inside
>joke for the "Fandom" community? If that's true, then there's probably a
>lot folks didn't "get" unless they were insiders.
>
>Say Doug, is this the one where you were killed? ;->

I wish!

FA is a big joke for the fans.. every character in there is based on a real
fan.  EX: "Jenny Trout" = superfilker Leslie Fish, 3MJ = Forrie Ackerman.
You might have noticed a small black yoga master in the van also... a
pre-fame Steve Barnes...

Kirsten and I both show up dead in "House of Secrets", a novel for
Jyhad/Vampire.  We appear as photos of two vampires who have been
completely destroyed.  Kevin just skewers us.  The characters discussing us
can't decide if we were "Toreadors with a thing for kitsch or Ravnos out to
embarrass the clan."  Once somebody explained the reference to me, I must
admit, it fit!
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7: Heavy Fighter - Request for Proposals

> > Proposals are being solicited for a next-generation aerospace heavy 
> > fighter, designated Project IN50-F2.  Baseline requirements are:
> 
> 	next-generation = TL 13 ?

No, TL 12.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:25:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

> From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>

> What about Keith Laumer's Bolo books?  I'd think self-aware battle-tanks
> would get you gear-heads computing and designing.  :)

I thought it would be very cool to do a Striker Bolo design, but I never
had the patience to design the zillion subsystems, and was doing all of
my Striker designs in the days before easy spreadsheets (although I did
try to put High Guard into Lotus 123 when I was a grad student).  I'm
not much of a gearhead, anyway.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:34:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: imperial shipping -- rancke

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:29:40 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economic data

Derek Wildstar writes:
>The Gross Planetary Product (GPP) and Taxation rules from Striker (original
>edition) were used to compute the GPP in Local Credits.  The Striker exchange
>table was used to convert these to Imperial Standard (Port-A, TL-15) Credits,
>which were then taxed at the suggested rates.

This is not quite correct. It would be if all ships built in the
Imperium
were TL 15. Credits spent on any ship built at TLs lower than 15 would
count
for more. You'd have 1% more TL 14 ships, 11% more TL 13 ships, 17% more
TL 12 ships, etc. than your figures result in.

>The Imperium imposes a tax burden of about 1% of the GIP,

Where did you get that figure? If it is supposed to be the ~30% of
military
taxes passed on to the interstellar power by member systems that
_Striker_
calls for, then you haven't accounted for any of the local planetary
navies
in your figures.

>Also relevant to the piracy debate is the shipbuilding and maintenance
>capacity of the world's shipyards.

Shipbuilding, yes, but not maintenance. If you are using TCS rules to
establish the size of the shipyards then you should also use TCS rules
for maintenance. And that means that shipyard capacity for maintenance
is hidden (Or that maintenance dosen't require shipyard capacity). And
if you think about it, that isn't as screwy as it sounds at first.
Shipyard capacity isn't just a huge floating spacedock. It is also the
skilled workers to perform the work and the mines and factories and
workshops to produce the hull and engines. But you don't need nearly as
many people to give a ship a tuneup that you need to build it, and you
cetainly don't need to replace even 2% of the hull and engines every
year.

BTW. it may also mean that replacement of worn-out ships (as opposed to
shot-up ships) is hidden (And that would be geniune shipyard capacity).
OTOH it is possble (propable) that the authors of TCS just didn't
imagine than anyone would ever need to replace a worn-out ship, most
ships in TCS campaigns being retired the hard way. Still, if we played a
TCS game and spent 100 years without fighting anyone, the fleets would
be as strong as ever, without anyone ever having paid for any
replacements.
So by strict TCS rules replacements are included in the 10% maintenance
figure.

>Picking a force mix rather arbitrarily, I come up with the following numbers
>for the ships that compose the available forces.  You can choose your own
>force mix, and generate different numbers of vessels.  It's worth remembering
>that these figures represent the ability of the starports to construct and
>maintain these ships.
> 
>Category                        %Total Avg Tons    Ships
>- --------------------------------------------------------
>Battleships and Battletenders    30.0%  500,000      611

I don't think that Imperial battleships average 500,000 T, though ships
and tenders together might.

>Battledriders and Monitors       30.0%  200,000     3953

Battleriders won't average 200,000 T. The largest possible tender of
1,000,000 would only be able to carry 3 of them. Battleriders would
max 100,000 and (IMO) average 50,000.

Monitors may be bigger, but the Imperial Navy wouldn't build many, if
any.

>Cruisers and Fleet Intruders     10.0%   50,000    24615

According to _Rebellion_ the above three categories together should
amount
to about 40,000 (Well, 20,000 for the regular fleets and an equal amount
of
money spent of the colonial forces; the force mix may be different for
the
colonial forces). Always provided you're not including planetary navies
in
your tax figure.

Also, if the force mix in _Fifth Frontier War_ is representative of the
whole Imperial navy, the proportion of battleship to cruiser squadrons
is more like 1:1. If battleships are traditionally arranged in 8 ship
squadrons and cruisers in 4-8 ship squadrons. the proportion of
battleships
to cruisers would be about 4:3.

OH, and battleship squadrons to scout squadrons would be 4:1, but I have
no notion of how many scouts you need to group to make a FFW squadron.

>Fleet Escorts                     3.0%   10,000   221497
>Support and Supply Vessels       16.9%  100,000     9595
>Patrol, Enforcement and Convoy    0.1%    1,000   984432
>System Defense Boats             10.0%    5,000  3281417

If the 1% dosen't include the planetary navy, then IMO there should be
no
SDBs included in these figures. I don't see the Imperial navy building
any
SDBs for themselves.
 
>If they were all 400-ton "light" SDBs, there could be over 200 thousand
>SDBs in EACH SYSTEM (the crews alone would exceed the population of most
>worlds).

I think you must be making a mistake here. A 400 T SDB takes the naval
taxes
of 240,000 people to maintain (If they earn your average  of
Cr13,000/year)
and has a crew of 12. I think you should be able to man all you can
build.

>Given that the bulk of these ships would be deployed at some distance from
>their bases, it is reasonable to assume that a total of 4 ships will be
>required to maintain one ship on patrol at any given time (one ship on
>patrol, one in port, and one each in transit to and from the patrol zone). 

I think you are being overly cautious here. Very few ships would be
stationed more than 2 jumps from their base (it's hard to find any place
in the Imperium that is more than 6 parsecs from a suitable world). 
Assuming that 3 month tours of duty are standard and double crews are
used, a ship would spend about 36 days of every 90 in transit (four
jumps
of average duration 9 days). Even with another 9 days spent in port (on
the
average -- every fourth tour would require a 14 day maintenance, but the
three others would not take nearly as long) you'd get 50% use out of the
ship. And for those systems only one jump from the base it would be even
more. (For those rare ones more than 6 parsecs away you'd use high-jump
ships).

A fleet tender may even enable you to keep the ships out a far higher
percentage of the time.

>BuildTons -- Starship Construction (Port "A") Capacity, in Displacement Tons.
>MaintTons -- Starship Overhaul (Port "B") Capability, in Displacement Tons.

None of this goes to maintenance if we use TCS rules, but it can all be
used to build SDBs. You don't need to use Port "A" capacity for that at
all.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- - ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 16:52:00 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Weber's Universe

On 10/25/97 at 02:21 PM,  DustyLV769@aol.com said:

>In my opinion, the Honor Harrington series are his best works...his
>inspiration seems to be drawn from history (The Napoleonics Wars) and from
>the C.S. Forester character Horatio Hornblower.  They are great books for
>ideas about how to play both noble characters and Naval characters as
>well.

I do like Honor Harrington. Of course, I also like the Hornblower books.

> The universe dosen't *exactly* fit well with the Traveller universe
>(mainly due to differences in FTL/STL movement, and weapons systems &
>defenses) but many ideas can be readily adapted to a Trav
>campaign.

Has he (or anybody) explained just how his STL/FTL systems are supposed to
work?

I get the impression it's all based on gravity control with ?high? gravity
bands running from the Alpha to the Beta nodes along the top and bottom of
the ships. Just how this translates into forward momentum, I don't know. 
Anyway ships can accelerate at several hundred g's and missles at
?thousands?, I think.

At FTL, I *think* the ship translates into a ?hyperspace? where the Alpha
nodes are unfolded into ?gravity? sails that catch some sort of gravity
currents that flow naturally.  In this hyperspace the effective velocity is
greater than c, but I don't know exactly how much.

Then there are the ?junction? points that allow instantanous movement from
place to place. Natural wormholes, maybe?

If we had some details about how his IC/AG and STL/FTL worked we could
pretty easily adapt the rest of it to Traveller. Or, actually, adapt the
rest of Traveller to his universe.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:34:45 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Silent Death: Traveller

	John Watts wrote:

>
>I have no idea if the rumors are true, but last weekend I was at a con in
>Knoxville, TN where a guy was running a conversion from Traveller to Silent
>Death.  It was great!
[snip]
>So all in all, it sounds like a fabulous idea to me. I hope IG and ICE can
>work it out.
>
>John

	I dunno.  Apparently SD is not terribly realistic.  If they fix it
so that it achieves the same level of attempting to slavishly simulate
reality (or at least achieve scientific verisimilitude) that the rest of
Trav does, then it might pan out...

	But if its anything less than accurately Newtonian, I'm gonna
ignore it.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:50:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: (pro-) "Pirate" ships

In mail you write:

>>  This begs the question of whether a transponder transmits
>>constantly, or replies when pinged.
>
> If every transpoder transmitted it's signal constantly, the ether would be
> filled with various signals. It would only be possible to have it send it's
> message when pinged. Can any ship ping another ship, or is it only
> government ships that have access to this (at least legally) ?

They way current transponders work is that they "piggyback" the ID info
on radar pulses. You bounce the right kind of radar off them and they
squirt back a return pulse containing the ID codes. This converts radar
from inverse 4th power to inverse square (since you are using the
transponders "squawk" rather than the echo of your own pulse) and it
avoids the "sea of noise" problem that continuos broadcasts would give.

Note that there's a *limited* amount of "space" for data in the
transponder squawk. For aircraft, it returns a *settable* multi-digit
ID (4 digits, as I recall) and some info about altitude (which the ATC
radar can't determine as accurately as the plane can)

As I recall certain ID codes are reserved for special purposes. For
example, if you have an emergency, you'll be instructed to set your
transponder to 7777. And in Traveller, there's probably as setting (say
1111...) that you have set when you pop out of jump so as to let STV
known you are a new arrival, and need to be assigned a code.

I suspect that even in traveller, due to the requirement for
transponder squawks to be *brief*, the info returned will be not all
that much greater. Instead, there'll be (as with the more advanced
*current* transponders) an "interrogate" option. That'd be a radar
pulse with special embedded codes. And the transponder would respond
on a different frequency with a detailed info burst.

Transponder *squawks* are triggerable by *anybody*, as part of the
purpose is to enhance radar returns, and provide info useful for
identifying and avoiding other ships. I figure the info would be a
settable ID (assigned by STC, or picked at random if there's no STC in
the system), and vector info (ie what direction the ship is moving and
at what speed in some standard co-ordinate system).

I suspect that the interrogate pulse can be used legally by anybody,
but that either there are different levels of detail, with the higher
levels either encrypted or requiring special codes in the interrogate
pulse. The higher levels would be reserved for official use. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:17:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

In mail you write:

> For the records here are my top ten:
>
> Van Vogt

Ooh! "Voyage of the Space Beagle"... Picture the players landing on the
planet with the Coeurls on it.... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:25:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?

In mail you write:

>         ...'cos he finally found out why they'd nicknamed him "Jones".
>
>
> <duck, run, hide>

It took me a second to connect Jones and Jonesy.... And I don't think
you can run fast enough!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:42:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crime in high-tech worlds Was: Re: Humour?

In mail you write:

> 1984 by George Orwell springs to mind ... although it is very old (1984 has,
> after all, already happened). The book is a classic, and if you haven't read
> it yet, take the time to do it.
>
> The society within that book is _extremely_ controlled. It is really a
> horror-vision of bureaucracy at it's worst.

I picked up a book of cartoons about 1984ish stuff that was being
remaindered (it was early 1985 at the time :-). The cover illustration
is a *wonderful* example of how high levels of law and bureaucracy can
play games with your head.

It's a drawing of a Russian type guard that has just stopped a car and
is looking at the id folder the driver has handed him. The book title
is what the guard is saying:

	"Why are your papers in order?"

Think about it....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:32:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#2004] Heinlein and Others...

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:26:48 -0400, Derek Wildstar
> <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>
>>Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  Heinlien's mentor, and originator of many of the
>>themes used so often in "classic" space opera (including powered armor,=20
>>later made famous by Heinlien in _Starship Troopers_ and adopted into
>>Traveller as "Battle Dress").  Read the Lensmen Series (_Triplanetary_,
>>_First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_, _Second-Stage Lensman_, and _Children =
> of
>>the Lens_ if I remember correctly).  If you really like the Lensmen =
> books,
>>pick up a copy of _GURPS Lensmen_ from SJG (it's the supplement that =
> made
>>me go out and buy GURPS - but then again, I'm a Doc Smith fan).
>
> The Lensman series consisted of six books: TRIPLANETARY, FIRST
> LENSMAN, GALACTIC PATROL, GRAY LENSMAN, SECOND-STAGE LENSMAN, and
> CHILDREN OF THE LENS.  In addition, he wrote another book set in
> the same universe, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX, and David Kyle was
> given permission to write three other novels in the same
> universe, THE DRAGON LENSMAN, LENSMAN FROM RIGEL, and Z-LENSMAN.

The Kyle books are *atrocious*. But Smith *himself* gave William
Halpern permission to set stories in the Lensman universe, and while
hard to find, they are better.

> On a different note, Heinlein wrote another novel that I enjoyed,
> although it is less "hard SF" than I normally like - British and
> recent US printings call it "Sixth Column"; older US printings
> call it "The Day After Tomorrow".

Sixth Column is based on a plot idea by John W. Campbell. There was a
collection of Campbell stories published posthumously that has
Campbell's version (titled "All").

Campbell wrote a lot of stuff back in the 30s and 40s that helped shape
the course of SF. "Forgetfulness" should be mandatory reading. It'll
give you lots of nasty ideas about high tech level "ruins".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:33:13 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

- -----Original Message-----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com <DustyLV769@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>; traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
<traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?


>In a message dated 97-10-24 23:51:48 EDT, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:
>
><< Any thoughts/recommendations?
>  >>
>
>I'd like to recommend David Weber...he is the author of several different
>books, here are the ones I know of:
>
>Oath of Swords (Fantasy)
>Path of the Fury (Sci-Fi)
>The Dahak series (Sci-fi)
>     Mutineers Moon
>     The Armageddon Inheritance
>     Heirs of Empire
>
>In my opinion, the Honor Harrington series are his best works...his
>inspiration seems to be drawn from history (The Napoleonics Wars) and from
>the C.S. Forester character Horatio Hornblower.  They are great books for
>ideas about how to play both noble characters and Naval characters as well.
> The universe dosen't *exactly* fit well with the Traveller universe
(mainly
>due to differences in FTL/STL movement, and weapons systems & defenses) but
>many ideas can be readily adapted to a Trav campaign.
>
>Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)
>

I, too, would recommend the Harrington for a good read, however I believe
that the Dahak series is much closer to a Traveller feel, with the exception
of the matter transmitters. Why, (gasp!) it even has a virus that destroys
the Empire (not computer based though!). Heirs to the Empire seems ready
made for a TNE conversion.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:47:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading


>At 08:08 PM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Douglas, are you an author as well?  your name sounds familiar.
>
>My ego forces me to assume he meant me.
>
>Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
>(usually being chased by villages waving torches)

>--
>
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
>|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
>|------------------------------------------|
>| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
>| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
>| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
>| for the money."               -- Moliere |
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

Douglas,
Just how do those villages move? Grav villages? or maye walkers? What a
thought! I'll have to look up a planet that mobile villages can fit on ;^)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:06:00 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

Isn't this actally the Winnebago from Stripes? ;-)

And I _know_ the Winnebago from Hell....it's the ones that come here every
winter with their geriatric drivers that clog our roads.

No ejection seats on those, alas, though I've often been very tempted to
put the Organ Rockets on _my_ car...

"Ahoy...Winnie off the Stab'd bow! Fire at will!"

FOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSH

BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG

Ahhh...I can dream, can't I? :->

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:39:17 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Economic Data (long)

At 10:20 PM 10/25/97 +0000, Michael Koehne wrote:
> Those numbers are based on flawed sectors from a flawed random generator.

Actually, the 'flaw' in the random generator was that it implemented
the world generation rules as written, without a human to modify the
values produced by blind application of the rules.  If the statistics 
of the world generation rules are accurate using fair dice, then the 
generated values should correspond in a general way to the 'actual'
Third Imperium.

> If you can tell me how to build jump capable vessels at TL:6-8, I can 
> forward it to some of our space based companies in Bremen 
> (ERNO,DASA,BIAS,IFAM,...)

Sure.  If you'll recall, IISS protocol specifies that the TL reflect local,
sustainable resources.  If some aerospace company were to arrange a deal
with a convenient Imperial megacorporation to build a starship assembly
yard in Bremen ...

I'd interpret these results as a low-tech world with some type of high-tech
outpost on it for some reason.  Perhaps a megacorporation is taking advantage
of cheap labor by putting a starship assembly facility on an underdeveloped
planet (I'm sure the local high-tech worlds hear a 'great big sucking sound'
coming from that direction).

> The second flaw in the calculation is to ignore economics,

I didn't exactly ignore it ... I was merely commenting on the upper bounds
of what can be built and maintained using the yard capacity available.  I
did present enough data so that you could decide wether or not the worlds
could afford that many ships, but I didn't analyze it or comment on it.
I believe Hans has done a good job of commenting on the economic side of
the analysis.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2014
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, October 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2015



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Economic Data
Re: SF Reading List
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Plasma Pistols and FF&S Recoil
SF books...
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Recommended Reading
RE: the draft
RE: Piracy exists because...
RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Economic Data (long)
Re: Humour?
Re: Gas Giants and AM Torps
Re: Jump Weapon and Jumps in general..

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:42:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

You'd have to add Iain M. Banks, John Brunner, and last, but not least,
Vernor Vinge!

If you love good SF then Bank's The Culture series, John Brunner's "Stand on
Zanzibar" and Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep" are all EXCELLENT
reads!!!!

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

In Navajo, Kemo Sabe means "soggy brush"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:44:16 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Economic Data

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>This is not quite correct. It would be if all ships built in the Imperium
>were TL 15.

I assume that all (or almost all) new construction for the Imperial Navy is
at TL-15.  Lower-TL ships would be acquired by planetary navies and other
local forces.  As a conservative approximation, this isn't bad.  The actual
figures could certainly be higher by a 'significant' amount (in this case,
by more than the +/- 5% uncertanty in the base data).

>>The Imperium imposes a tax burden of about 1% of the GIP,
>Where did you get that figure? 

It's been a while since I did that analysis, but I believe it's based on
the Striker figures (30% of 3%).

>then you haven't accounted for any of the local planetary navies
>in your figures.

Correct.  The large table does give local Army and Navy budges by starport
type and TL in local megacredits.  That should be sufficient to figure out
how much the local governments have available for spending on their own
forces.

It's worth noting that the bulk of my analysis (numbers of ships) is based
on starport construction and maintenance capacity, and NOT tax revenue.  In
other words, it's an analysis of what the Imperium could build, if funds
and manpower was available.

>If you are using TCS rules to establish the size of the shipyards then you 
>should also use TCS rules for maintenance. And that means that shipyard 
>capacity for maintenance is hidden (Or that maintenance dosen't require 
>shipyard capacity).

TCS doesn't require shipyard capacity for maintenance, but it's traditional
that Traveller ships require an annual maintenance in a starport.  Since
the TCS "port capacity" figures are based primarily on population, I
assume that the limiting factor is the available workforce.  I'm being 
conservative again, I assumed that an annual maintanance requires the
same workforce as construction.   I've provided enough numbers so that you 
can compute the (much larger) naval capacity using other scenarios.

As a rough approximation, the total number of ships that is supportable more 
than doubles if you assume annual maintanance does not require shipyard
capacity.  However, about half of these ships must now be non-jump-capable,
since they're constructed at Class-B starports.

>OTOH it is possble (propable) that the authors of TCS just didn't
>imagine than anyone would ever need to replace a worn-out ship, most
>ships in TCS campaigns being retired the hard way.

That was my assumption as well.  IMHO, it makes sense that you'd need to
use shipyard capacity to build replacements for a ship.  If nothing else,
by the end of the assumed lifetime of a starship (80 years), you'd want
to replace it with an improved (higher-TL) ship, rather than an exact
copy of the old ship.  The TCS rules pretty clearly indicate that you'd
have to use shipyard capacity to build the replacement, and then put the
old one in ordinary or pay it off.

Also note that, since the analysis was based on shipbuilding factors, the
only limit on the number of ships in the "mothball fleet" is the available
funds for maintaining them.

>[battleships, riders, and monitors]

You're right; the size mix for these vessels seems to be messed up.  It's
relatively easy to choose a different mix and come up with different numbers.
If you switch to smaller ships, you can build significantly more of them.

>Always provided you're not including planetary navies in your tax figure.

It's worth mentioning that I'm _not_ working from tax figures for the
analysis of the numbers of ships.  I'm working from the construction and
maintenance capacity of the shipyards.  If you go with my argument on the
construction and maintenance, then the figures are a conservative upper
limit on the number of ships that could be built and maintained in the
Imperium.  Figuring out how to pay for these ships is your department,
I've provided some basic raw data, but didn't analyse it.  ;-)

It's not clear from TCS if the Imperial Navy's ship construction and
maintanace facilities are included in the shipbuilding figures.  For
purposes of the analysis, I assumed that they are, but the argument can
be made that the figures reflect ONLY local shipbuilding.

> [Accroding to FFW] the proportion of battleship to cruiser squadrons
>is more like 1:1. If battleships are traditionally arranged in 8 ship
>squadrons and cruisers in 4-8 ship squadrons. the proportion of battleships
>to cruisers would be about 4:3.

A lot depends on the relative size of the vessels.  From a shipbuilding
point of view, small is beautiful.  You can build more aggregate tons of
smaller ships than you can of large ships.  If the average size of tenders,
battleships, and riders was smaller, then the numbers of these ships
would be larger.

I'm not sure if I buy the 4:3 ration of Battleships to Cruisers.  Given
the overall utility of cruisers, I'd expect them to be the most numerous
of the three types of ships.

I've always imagined that the Imperium invests heavily in cruisers and
fleet intruders, since they're big enough for almost any application of
force short of a war with another interstellar power.  I've always
considered Cruisers to be the long-duration patrol ships of the Imperium
(and Fleet Intruders are likewise, but more so), while Battleships and
Battleriders are more likely to be found at a Depot, unless a serious show
of force is required; YMMV.

>If the 1% dosen't include the planetary navy, then IMO there should be no
>SDBs included in these figures.

Again, this is based on shipyard capacity, not ability to pay for the things.

>>If they were all 400-ton "light" SDBs, there could be over 200 thousand
>>SDBs in EACH SYSTEM

>I think you must be making a mistake here. A 400 T SDB takes the naval taxes
>of 240,000 people to maintain (If they earn your average  of Cr13,000/year)
>and has a crew of 12. I think you should be able to man all you can build.

Let me rephrase that ... if applied to building 400-ton SDBs, 10% of the 
Naval shipbuilding capacity of the Imperium is ehough to sustain a force of 
about 1.15 BILLION of the annoying little things, assuming that someone could 
pay for and man them.  Since that seems rather impossible, I assumed that the
average SDB was much larger (and therefore there are MUCH fewer of them).

>>[Patrol ships]
>I think you are being overly cautious here.

Probably.  I was being conservative, and recalled that Donitz needed a total
of about 3 U-Boats in the inventory for each one that could be on patrol at
any one point in time (this accounts for ships required for training, in
transit, and in refit at any one time).  I upped the figure to 4 to account
for ships that made port calls (or at least basic drive maintenance) of a 
few days between jumps.  While ships could deploy faster in wartime, in
peacetime, they'd be much less likely to risk back-to-back jumps.  


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:13:51 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: SF Reading List

Loren Wiseman wrote:
>I consider myself fairly well-read in hard SF. I consider  Frank and Dave the
>same or more so. I don't know if Dave has ever read any of the Berserker
>novels...I have (albeit many years ago), and I know Frank has. 

I'm sorry, Loren, that came out sounding more offensive than it should have. 
I didn't mean that to be a slam on you or Frank.  I know you wrote that (very 
effective) ad for Classic Traveller that used to run in Analog way back when
(probably more years ago than either of us would like to admit).

At one point, either right before the publication of T:TNE, or shortly after 
it, I'd asked Dave if he'd ever read Saberhagen's Berzerkers.  He told me that 
he'd never heard of them (I was stunned).  I know I suggested that he read up
on it, since his description of his conception of a Vampire Fleet sounded so
familiar.  That (and the feeling that Dave was the primary architect of the 
Virus) was the basis for my earlier comment on the TML.

                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com ---------- "Terrorist on the TML" (according to Dave Nilsen)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:15:50 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <971023115055_504733232@emout01.mail.aol.com>
>
>>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>>
>> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>>
>> Marc
>
>Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!

I think we need to start a support group (TravMom?) for mothers of
half-divine Traveller guruspawn.

Our first task will be, of course, to protect the wee ones by lobbying the
Court to have the FS Sub-Orbital Gravitic Pogo-Stick banned.  Why can't
that horrible Hengabar person and his friends make decent, useful things,
like prams?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:37:45 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
>Subject: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

The official classification is, of course, URBAN ASSAULT VEHICLE (from
the movie _Stripes_ with Bill Murray and assorted other lunatics).


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:34:47 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols and FF&S Recoil

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:
>Funny, th only character to have a plasma pistol in my game was also a 
>Vargr...

Funny, but I rather like them.  Most of my players (that were given the option
at all) seemed to prefer playing Aslan.  Generally Aslan males, with Lots of
Big Guns (*sigh*  The only really interesting Aslan character in my game was
a female).  Personally, I prefer to play Vargr myself.

 --- Derek Wildstar

 aka Garal ral Growfen    Chief Engineer on a tramp merchant ship.  Has a
                          particular hatred of humans after some crewmates put
                          hair-remover in his fur shampoo as a 'practical
joke'.

 aka Dr. Gzoe Zenore      Vargr MD and #2 turret gunner.  Was well-known for 
                          carrying a tranquilizer pistol and darts for
dealing 
                          with unruly animals (such as humans).


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:46:49 -0400
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@compuserve.com>
Subject: SF books...

        Hey, how about  Bunch & Cole ( a la Sten series)? Yea, a bit on the
far out side, but the arm knife is a cool fixture.
(I just want some of that crystal....). Kilgore was abit on the
unbeleavable side (a heavy-worlder) who told rather bland jokes and his
scot accent went 'in-and-out'. It was sone of the interesting military and
intel SF stuff in print. I really liked the off-take on the Colditz line in
one of the books. 

        Maybe not Traveller, but a good deversion...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:14:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

Quoth Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm:
> Seriously, I do not think that a person could logically go insane just by
> looking at something. I visualize jumpspace as a _black_ ... something.
> 
> Of course, looking at something when there is nothing to look at can drive
> you insane, or at least cause you to hallucinate. Try entering a really dark
> cellar or something and stare out in the darkness, without really seeing
> anything. After a while, there seems to be movement in the darkness, and you
> can faintly visualize objects ...

Here in Houston we have a non-denominational religious structure (yes, I
wrote that right) called the "Rothko Chapel".  It's named so because of
the huge canvases adorning it, painted by '60's artist Mark Rothko, who
was known for his use of broad swathes of color.

All half-dozen of these canvases, two stories high or so each, are
completely black.  Folks will sit on meditation cushions in the middle
of the room and stare at the walls.  After a while you can start to see
brush strokes, and things like that.

So there you have it: jump space is a giant 1960's avante-garde art canvas.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:03:21 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 06:55 PM 10/25/97 EST, Doug wrote:
<Snip>...
>Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
>(usually being chased by villages waving torches)


Now THAT's status - when entire villages want you toasted!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:31:59 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: the draft

On Friday, October 24, 1997 8:11 PM, Steven Hudson 
[SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca] wrote:
>
>   This is probably best treated solely as a chargen artifact from CT.
> Otherwise we have 15 billion citizens directly administered by an
> authoritarian Empire, yes? I suspect that piracy can be rubbed out
> or converted into a State monopoly in that scenario, _very_ easily.

Hmmm...Looking at my copy of T4, I still see a draft roll.

It would appear to me, that when you register as an Imperial Subject (i.e. 
get your ImpID), you either have proof of employment, or take a ride with 
the boys in uniform.

(Another reason, IMHO, that there is resentment against the Imperium, 
regardless of the benefits of membership...)

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:32:22 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Piracy exists because...

On Friday, October 24, 1997 7:46 PM, Steven Hudson 
[SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca] wrote:
> Hello,
> >The operation of naval vessels in this century, in the defense mode, 
occur
> >in regions that do not interfere significantly with merchant traffic.
> >Maneouvres occur in the mid ocean away from prying eyes, or blatantly 
just
> >off an agressors coast in order to impress on that countries ruling 
powers.
> >This is the case during peacetime. I accept that a war-footing is 
different.
>
>   This presumes that GG's are not somewhat out of the way; they also 
happen
> to be where many if not most battles expect to be fought.

I assume that GGs are the primary line of defense mostly due to the fact 
that a invading fleet will want to fight with full fuel tanks, so that they 
can disengage if necessary.  It might be somewhat awkward to request 
refueling from the Starport before the battle...  :)

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:16:23 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: The whole piracy thread (recap)

On Saturday, October 25, 1997 12:52 AM, Leonard Erickson 
[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com] wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> >> I'm not sure I understand your position.  Are you for or against
> >> standardization?
> >
> > Im for it... I truely can not believe the various compaines would not 
try
> > to at least try to conform with each other - if not for a better profit
> > margin...
>
> You mean like the various car makers use interchangeable parts? Or how
> Microsoft enhances their proifits by making sure that competitors
> software works as well with their OSes as Microsoft software does? (1)

No, more like the two shipyards building the SeaWolf class attack subs. 
 Both wanted the Seawolf contract, and to prevent the loss of another 
shipyard capable of building subs for the USN both were assigned specific 
boats.  They are built to a common plan, however.  When we start talking 
about significant sums of cash (credit), companies will adapt or die. 
 Think about the competition between Apple and the PC community. 
 Macintoshes are better machines.  They are also highly proprietary.  Apple 
sits on the edge of oblivion.

To paraphrase, Raymond Moorda, Naval Architect, designs a kickbutt Free 
Trader that will hit 2G 2J and only requires servicing every 2 years, but 
needs specific parts only available at a specific shipyard.  Meanwhile, 
William Doors, N.A., designs another ship (after looking at Raymond's 
specifications) that will fill roughly the same need, but using standard 
parts (and juuuust different enough...)  While the custom starship may be 
better, the yard that built it is the only one that can service it. 
 William doesn't have as good a starship, but gets scads more licensing 
because there is a larger market available.

>
> (1) For those who aren't aware of it, Microsoft has a long history of
> sticking routines in their OSes to either prevent third party software
> from working with them (Windows 3.1 was *specifically* written so that
> it wouldn't run under DR-DOS), or reduce performance (Someone recemtly
> discovered that Windows 95 checks to see if Netscape is running, and if
> it is, it disables a routine that smooths out the "jaggies" in large
> fonts).

However, for those of us who were in the industry at the time, the feud 
between Ray Noorda (CEO of Novell) and Bill Gates (CEO of Microsoft) was 
rather well known.  Bill Gates, IMHO, realized that the bottom line was 
being affected, and dropped the battle.  Ray Noorda, also IMHO, did not. 
 That is why he is no longer with Novell.

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:03:34 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

on that note, does anyone know when he is going to finish his Dahak
series?
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:15:16 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > For the records here are my top ten:
> >
> > Van Vogt
> 
> Ooh! "Voyage of the Space Beagle"... Picture the players landing on the
> planet with the Coeurls on it.... :-)
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Couerls, hell.  Imagine what an army of Ixtls would do!

Captain : "Life support, would you please repeat that?!"

Life support : "Yes, sir, I coulda swore I saw something that looked
like Satan fly past!  All scarlet and mean looking!  Dropped right thru
the ceiling and then thru the floor like they weren't even there!"

Engineering : "Captain!  Captain!  You won't believe what I just saw
down here in engineering!"

Captain (to bridge officer) : "Am I missing something here, or have half
my crew gone nuts?"

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:50:09 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

Yes, I meant Douglas Berry.  Just that the name sounds familiar, like I
had seen it somewhere else.  Probably confusing with Stephen Ames Berry,
a sci-fi writer.

He did :

The Biofab War
The Battle for Terra 2
The AI War
Final Assault

(those books are a series, in that order.)

I highly reccomend reading these as they are great action/adventure with
a good portion of humour strategically placed.  :)
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:53:18 -0700
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> 
> > From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
> 
> > What about Keith Laumer's Bolo books?  I'd think self-aware battle-tanks
> > would get you gear-heads computing and designing.  :)
> 
> I thought it would be very cool to do a Striker Bolo design, but I never
> had the patience to design the zillion subsystems, and was doing all of
> my Striker designs in the days before easy spreadsheets (although I did
> try to put High Guard into Lotus 123 when I was a grad student).  I'm
> not much of a gearhead, anyway.
> 
> --Glenn

I'd still like to see how they would be treated, using the FF&S II
rules, as I do not have those myself.  Anyone else want to take a crack
at these?
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:14:00 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economic Data (long)

Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:03:38 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

>Some Numbers About Piracy, Trade and Imperial Budgets
>
>Summary: The Imperium is BIG, and it's WEALTHY.  It's requently hard to grasp
>just how big and how wealthy, because the numbers are usually astronomical
>(and
>I hope you'll pardon the pun).

[Stuff about what the Imperium could afford to do...]

I've tried to make this point before.  Yes, huge organizations
have huge resources.  Does this mean they do things that modest
organizations wouldn't do because they don't bother with the cost?
_No_.  If anything they watch their expenses in a way that may
be even more detailed.  Why?  That is because those organizations
with mind boggling resources have a mind boggling huge number of
things that it could do competing for those resources.  The
Imperium is not going to spend money to stop piracy because
it doesn't care about the money and if the cost to completely
eliminate piracy exceeds the losses involved, then you have a
situation where such an effort is dubious, regardless of whether
we are talking about  10% if the Imperium's budget or 0.00001%
of the budget.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:03:25 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Humour?

douglas@teleport.com In a message dated 25/10/97 04:05:19 GMT, you write:

<< >   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
 > most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
 > functioning cameras in every corridor.
  >>
I hope you were joking? Given the title of your E-Mail, I assume so, however,
just in case...  Murder.. was one of the better Traveller adventures
published for Classic Traveller - The aim was for the ref. to decide who the
murder was and why.. More a how to.. but very enjoyable.. 

I used something similar in an adventure whereby the murder was actually an
escaped 'popsicle' being transferred from one prison to another on another
planet.. The Lowberth did contain a body - dead, and was the prisoners
guard.. The main problem was that this was a maiden voyage of a giant cruise
ship and there were thousands of possible suspects - to make things worse
this guy had been frozen for crimes against the Imperium during the Civil
War.. Ended up with a hunt through the air vents...  

________________________________________________
Signal-GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:03:30 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gas Giants and AM Torps

In a message dated 22/10/97 10:44:42 GMT, you write:

<< Hrmmm....that _does_ beg the question, though. Shoemaker-Levy, IIRC,
 >mostly burned up in (comparatively) the upper atmosphere. 

<<<And your missile won't?

1. Leonard Erickso said earlier that the missles would be limited like
Shoemaker-Levy on impact - sorry.. Missles like shuttles, can be guided into
the atmosphere until it reaches an appropriate depth or is crushed by the
pressure..  We are not talking direct attacks on the atmosphere here..
<<What would  >happen if you set off a fusion warhead waaaaaay down in the
atmosphere? Say near the part where the hydrogen starts turnng metallic?
 Would the pressure be enough to sustain a fusion reaction? Or at least make
the fusion reaction that _does_ occur go on a lot longer and be a lot bigger
than it would normally be?
 
 Jupiter is not big enough, by a decent margin, to sustain such
 a reaction.  Wether you could get a bigger reaction if you could
 somehow get a warhead down there, I don't know.  Though I'm not
 sure what one would be intending to blow up...

2. Reason for the question was that in Dag' we have a highly advanced alien
race that are GG hydrogen-breathers. In order to keep them under control the
IN destroyed one of their colonies as a warning against any future
aggression.

I'm no scientist so I wished to find out from those with experience in the
field what would happen if missles were exploded in the mixed atmosphere of a
GG. I have elected to go with the pressure wave decimating the colony and
creating a temporary atmospheric discharge.

Thanks for your help.

P.S. Was the Anti-matter Torp ever agreed as a possible and if so what would
its distructive force be? What would be the long term effects of several
missles - eg. could it create a long-term storm in the atmosphere etc..

I'm looking (probably foolishly) for something that would still be a reminder
three hundred years later..

Again thanks to everyone for their help, much appreciated..

Jae

_____________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:03:28 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Weapon and Jumps in general..

In a message dated 22/10/97 10:44:02 GMT, you write:

<< During tonight's Trav sesh, I explained to one of my players - Steve -
 about the 100 diameter jump limit. I also told him that a ship attempting
 jump while still on a planet would destroy much of it. This is my
 understanding at least.
 
 	Steve them asked what was to stop someone from performing a suicide jump
 on a planet. I couldn't answer him. Can anyone else do so?
  >>

Sorry its taken me so long to get involved in this thread - Its been
mentioned elsewhere that thanks to SOM and its thruster plates there is no
need for blast bays - In my campaign all A-C startports have blast bays
because they shield the port against attempted planetary jumps - eg. the
ship's jump drive explodes because of the (very) close proximity to gravity
and mass.. The blast bays are a safety measure to confine any such
explosion.. In the only time I've enforced the rule - (a character totally
paranoid had a device fitted to monitor brain activity and when he died - in
a shoot out - the device activated the ship's deadman switch and blew up the
ship) it destroyed the bay, did major damage to surrounding buildings and
injured a few personnel that were nearby but failed to do major damage to the
city or to the public areas of the port - within a day the port was once more
running though the area was under repair for several months..

Also although I adventure in CT in the core (Dag'), I still allow ships
weapons as I equate the area similar to the 17th Century - basically lawful
provided you stayed in civilised systems but there were a lot of hellholes
you didn't want 'honest' citizens to travel to.. Thus the majority of ships
are armed - although these weapon systems are 'sealed' by the boarding team
on arrival into close orbit - I use a ship's gig at most A-B ports to
transfer an official to seal weapons before landing on high pop, high tech
worlds. The use of blast bays renders any hidden weapons use on the ground
pretty limited any way and I place weapon turrets around the ports as
security measures..

On Jumps - SOM states that 'nature has provided certain safeguards which
prevent an object from exiting jumpspace while inside the 100 diameter
limit.. My house rules states that ships can't exit near any mass.. Now to me
that means that a ship can appear anywhere outside that limit from any of the
planets... Again house rules - ships exiting jump can arrive anywhere in the
system - good navigation and well maintained jump equipment will ensure that
it is closer to the 100d rather than further out. This obviously makes a
difference to pirates who might hide a distance out and attack poorly
maintained independent merchants - getting tech info on the state of a ship
can be almost as valuable as the cargo manifest - 

Also another house rule - again in SOM (Spacers Bible) - 'after about 150 -
185 hours the ship finally emerges from jumpspace back into our own
universe.. the average duration of the jump is about 168 hours, plus or minus
10%." - I only allow this if the ship's jump mechanisms are well maintained -
something few independents appear to do due to the cost. However I do allow
my players to jack up their ship to enable it to make tighter jumps and
provided it is very well maintained and coupled with tight rolls per jump - I
allow the ship to exit closer to the 150 hour mark (155 hours + or - 1d6
hours) allowing them to have more time to get away from following ships  --
IMHO

It gives the engineer characters a real reason to nurse those engines and to
spend time hunting around for new parts, to try new bodges etc.. 

"A quick getaway is more than just a fast maneuvre drive, sonny. Its having a
finely tuned jumpdrive that can make a two parsec jump in under 160 hours!
Impie ships are over eight hours behind you giving you enough time to refuel
and rejump.. That's why you WILL pay me the extra cred's..."

Shad'O Walker of the 'Andrea Ffionna'

Jae

_____________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help: A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2015
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, October 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2016



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Economic Data
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:  Jumpspace de
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Cybertanks and Striker
Re: Jump Weapon and Jumps in general..
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Plasma Pistols and FF&S Recoil
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Adv. 11
RE: the draft
Re: Humour?
THUDDD 7: RFP on Web, admin stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:45:44 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@Alaska.NET>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote

> Isn't this actally the Winnebago from Stripes? ;-)

The Winebago from Stripes was given full Car Wars stats by SJG in an old
issue of The Space Gamer.
> 
> And I _know_ the Winnebago from Hell....it's the ones that come here every
> winter with their geriatric drivers that clog our roads.

I am sure there can not possibly be any Winnebagos on the North American
continent that are not driving around southcentral Alaska at 30 mph all
summer stopping suddenly and without notice to look at Dahl Sheep :) 
Therefore I must conclude that you only have problems 8-9 months a year.

ObTraveller:  How would you like to be trying to bring your merchant
ship into port to deliver a cargo.  You will receive a prompt delivery
bonus if you get it delivered soon.  The local government is a type 9
Impersonal Bureaucracy.  They have a first come, first served policy at
their starport.  You have to wait to land until after an old, slow,
breakdown prine, coasting, Heplar ship with an elderly crew who are
doing every landing task cautiously (MT rules double time required)
because they are not competant to do any more.  They leave their landing
warning beacon on all the time and it would be a violation of the
systems safety regulations (law level C) if you turned off your ships
broadcasting of their warning.  So your charecters are just sitting
around waiting, and waiting, and waiting for hour, after hour, after
hour.  The whole time the players ship is broadcasting the other ships
"Warning We Are About To Land ! Waring We Are About To Land !" message
at 80 decibles in Gilbert Gottfreids voice.

Naturally once they get down to the planet the elderly crews ship will
have already picked up all the valuable cargos.  If they try to start
trouble with the others ships crew they will discover that they are up
against the 2020 AD versions of Clint, Arnold, and Sylvester.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:26:45 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?

	Leonard Erickson wrote:

>
>In mail you write:
>
>>         ...'cos he finally found out why they'd nicknamed him "Jones".
>>
>>
>> <duck, run, hide>
>
>It took me a second to connect Jones and Jonesy.... And I don't think
>you can run fast enough!


	Visualize this little scene we came up wit a few months back:

Captain [pleading]: But we need a steward!

Aslan [wearing little French Maid's outfit, with tray of drinks]:  I tell
you, I will wear your warrior's costume, BUT I WILL NOT SERVE DRINKS!


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:19:22 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>Isn't this actally the Winnebago from Stripes? ;-)


	Very heavily inspired thereby, yes :).


>
>And I _know_ the Winnebago from Hell....it's the ones that come here every
>winter with their geriatric drivers that clog our roads.
>
>No ejection seats on those, alas, though I've often been very tempted to
>put the Organ Rockets on _my_ car...
>
>"Ahoy...Winnie off the Stab'd bow! Fire at will!"
>
>FOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSH
>
>BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG
>
>Ahhh...I can dream, can't I? :->

	<g>  You ever play SJG's Car Wars?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:25:22 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

At 23:37 -0400 10/25/97, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
>>Subject: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
>
>The official classification is, of course, URBAN ASSAULT VEHICLE (from
>the movie _Stripes_ with Bill Murray and assorted other lunatics).
>


	Of course... Nice dumb enjoyable little movie, that one :).  For
some reason I could remember Sgt. Hulka, but not the name of the RV.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:22:34 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

Kenji wrote:

>
>I think we need to start a support group (TravMom?) for mothers of
>half-divine Traveller guruspawn.
>
>Our first task will be, of course, to protect the wee ones by lobbying the
>Court to have the FS Sub-Orbital Gravitic Pogo-Stick banned.  Why can't
>that horrible Hengabar person and his friends make decent, useful things,
>like prams?


	Not a bad idea!  I'll fire up CSC tonight and see what I can come
up with...

[walks into wings, chuckling and rubbing hands together]

[sticks head back out]

	And I don't know why everyone refers to it as "suborbital"...  At 8
g's, the pogo stick could reach escape velocity on _Jupiter_.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:39:53 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economic Data

Derek Wildstar writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>
>I assume that all (or almost all) new construction for the Imperial Navy is
>at TL-15.  Lower-TL ships would be acquired by planetary navies and other
>local forces.

This really isn't logical. A TL 15 world will pay 30% of its military budget
to the Imperium. The most efficient way for the Imperium to collect those
taxes is by taking them out in ships built in that system. Fine. But the
half of those taxes will go to the subsector forces, and they too would get
TL 15 ships from that world. And finally the planetary navy would use their
42% or more on locally produced TL 15 ships. Moving on to the TL 14 world
next door, the Imperium would get their 30% and again it would be most
efficient to take their taxes out in locally produced ships, this time
TL 14 ships. It's true that the taxes from worlds that don't produce ships
at all would propably mostly be spent on TL 15 worlds. And in every case,
down to TL 9 much of the planetary navy will be built in-system (Though
planetary navies is allowed to buy from any world within the subsector
(more propably withing reasonable range).

>>If you are using TCS rules to establish the size of the shipyards then you 
>>should also use TCS rules for maintenance. And that means that shipyard 
>>capacity for maintenance is hidden (Or that maintenance dosen't require 
>>shipyard capacity).
> 
>TCS doesn't require shipyard capacity for maintenance, but it's traditional
>that Traveller ships require an annual maintenance in a starport.

Sure, but IIRC it dosen't have to be a world with the TL of the ship in
question, just a class A or B starport. In any case, I wasn't saying that
ship maintenance positively didn't require shipyard capacity (hereinafter
abreviated SC), just that IF maintenance requires SC, then that capacity
is hidden in TCS games and should be accounted for when you decide to
draw it forth from its hiding place.

>As a rough approximation, the total number of ships that is supportable more 
>than doubles if you assume annual maintanance does not require shipyard
>capacity.

And contrariwise, true SC more than doubles if maintenance does require it
and we still want to be compatible with TCS. I actually think that is more
than a little plausible. Remember that by TCS rules you can leave all your
SC totally unused for months, then show up with a damaged ship, use your SC
for a few months, then not use it again for months and still have it
available at a moment's notice. That kind of yo-yo-like employment
practices just isn't plausible. It seems much more likely to me that if you
have so-and-so many people permanently employed on maintenance and
replacements, then you can temporarily increase your shipyard capacity
by 60 or 70%. Its true that while this models repairs taking a few months
fairly well, permanent construction like a whole new line of battleships
ought to gradually increase excess SC as the workforce expands to meet the
new demand. But that could be explained as a factor omitted from TCS for
simplification.

>That was my assumption as well.  IMHO, it makes sense that you'd need to
>use shipyard capacity to build replacements for a ship.

Absolutely no argument there. What I was arguing was that just as these
replacements are hidden from the TCS player, the necessary SC might also
be hidden from him. In other words, true shipyard capacity might be 2.5 T
per 1000 inhabitants, but since 60% of that will always be needed for
maintenance and replacements, TCS chose to ignore it.

>If nothing else, by the end of the assumed lifetime of a starship
>(80 years), you'd want to replace it with an improved (higher-TL) ship,

Not if your TL haven't improved. Tech advancement in the Traveller
universe just isn't anything like we are used to on Earth today.

>>[According to FFW] the proportion of battleship to cruiser squadrons
>>is more like 1:1. If battleships are traditionally arranged in 8 ship
>>squadrons and cruisers in 4-8 ship squadrons. the proportion of battleships
>>to cruisers would be about 4:3.
> 
>A lot depends on the relative size of the vessels.

We've accounted for that by assuming an average ship size for each category.
I agree with you about cruisers, disagree about battleships and are
doubtful about some of the others.

>I'm not sure if I buy the 4:3 ration of Battleships to Cruisers.  Given
>the overall utility of cruisers, I'd expect them to be the most numerous
>of the three types of ships.

I'm not trying to sell it. I just offer the data from 5FW as the best
evidence we have. I admit it is damn poor. In my own recent posting I
assumed 3:7.
 
>>>[Patrol ships]
>>I think you are being overly cautious here.
> 
>Probably.  I was being conservative, and recalled that Donitz needed a total
>of about 3 U-Boats in the inventory for each one that could be on patrol at
>any one point in time (this accounts for ships required for training, in
>transit, and in refit at any one time).  I upped the figure to 4 to account
>for ships that made port calls (or at least basic drive maintenance) of a 
>few days between jumps.  While ships could deploy faster in wartime, in
>peacetime, they'd be much less likely to risk back-to-back jumps.  

How about compromising on 3:1?
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 15:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:  Jumpspace de

In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971025113326.00d731d8@mail.pcisys.net>

David,

> Top 3, in order
>  
>  Heinlein, Robert
>  Niven/Pournelle collaborations

I'd limit that to TMiGE - IMHO all their other collaborations have been 
inferior to their solo stuff.

>  Cherryh, C J
>  
>    Remaining 7, in no particular order
>  Pohl, Fred
>  Saberhagen
>  McAffrey, Anne
>  Bujold, Lois

I'd put her in the top 3.

>  Dickson, Gordon
>  Brin, David
>  Zahn, Timothy

Only read his SW stuff, and I wasn't overly impressed. Good, but 
nowhere near great.

>    Honorable Mention
>  Bester, Alfred

<splutter> He should be at no.1...if not higher!

>  Del Rey, Lester
>  Drake, David
>  Foster, Alan Dean
>  Laumer, Keith
>  Piper, H Beam
>  Robinson, Spider
>  Schmitz, James
>  Sheffield, Charles
>  Leinster, Murray
>  White, James
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 15:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

In-Reply-To: <199710250015.BAA18833@sand.global.net.uk>

> Hmm. Is Larry Niven really God? I've read some of his stuff - some is truly
> brilliant, like Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, Legacy Of Heorot.

These are all collaborations, and I'd rate them as above average at best.

> Some is yawnful, filled with meaningless undifferentiated characters, eg
> Moat Around Murcheson's Eye.

I preferred it to the above.

YMMV, obviously.

> Even Niven has bad days.

True, but a Niven bad day is still better than many others' good days.

> The question we should ask is:
>  
> WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SF/TRAVELLER STORIES:
>  
> The ones that immediately leap to (my tiny) mind (guess the authors if you
> can) are:
> Space Viking
> But Loyal To His Own
> The Man Who Never Missed

Never read any of these

> Footfall

Not Traveller

> The Legacy Of Heorot

Maybe

> King David's Spaceship
> Alien
> Dune 

Agreed

> Gateway
> Bolo
> The Forever War

Not read

> Starship Troopers
> Hammer's Slammers: Counting The Cost.

Agreed

Add:

Bujold's Vorkosigan series
The Mote in God's Eye + TMAME
Banks' Culture series
Feintuch's Seafort Saga (if you can stand the self-loathing)
The Stainless Steel Rat series

______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 15:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

In-Reply-To: <199710250015.BAA18833@sand.global.net.uk>

> Hmm. Is Larry Niven really God? I've read some of his stuff - some is truly
> brilliant, like Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, Legacy Of Heorot.

These are all collaborations, and I'd rate them as above average at best.

> Some is yawnful, filled with meaningless undifferentiated characters, eg
> Moat Around Murcheson's Eye.

I preferred it to the above.

YMMV, obviously.

> Even Niven has bad days.

True, but a Niven bad day is still better than many others' good days.

> The question we should ask is:
>  
> WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SF/TRAVELLER STORIES:
>  
> The ones that immediately leap to (my tiny) mind (guess the authors if you
> can) are:
> Space Viking
> But Loyal To His Own
> The Man Who Never Missed

Never read any of these

> Footfall

Not Traveller

> The Legacy Of Heorot

Maybe

> King David's Spaceship
> Alien
> Dune 

Agreed

> Gateway
> Bolo
> The Forever War

Not read

> Starship Troopers
> Hammer's Slammers: Counting The Cost.

Agreed

Add:

Bujold's Vorkosigan series
The Mote in God's Eye + TMAME
Banks' Culture series
Feintuch's Seafort Saga (if you can stand the self-loathing)
The Stainless Steel Rat series

______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:58:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cybertanks and Striker

Hello,
>> What about Keith Laumer's Bolo books?  I'd think self-aware battle-tanks
>> would get you gear-heads computing and designing.  :)
>
>I thought it would be very cool to do a Striker Bolo design, but I never
>had the patience to design the zillion subsystems, and was doing all of
>my Striker designs in the days before easy spreadsheets (although I did
>try to put High Guard into Lotus 123 when I was a grad student).  I'm
>not much of a gearhead, anyway.

  I made some efforts, but it simply couldn't fly because I wasn't
willing to re-write the Striker rules to allow such a vehicle to
survive multiple hits; after all, on 5-6 a Major penetration is
catastrophic. Later, I was willing, but not interested in doing so.
Hmm, it does have appeal. Are there many people still using Striker
(I or II) for their CT needs?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:37:53 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Weapon and Jumps in general..

In a message dated 26/10/97 11:39:46 GMT, I wrote:

<< eg. the
 ship's jump drive explodes because of the (very) close proximity to gravity
 and mass.. The blast bays are a safety measure to confine any such
 explosion.. >>

Since then I'd reread SOM once more and came across a passage that
contradicted my statement - P.13 "Jumping in a gravity well - While it is
possible to enter jumpspace from anywhere (even sitting in a docking bay on
the surface of a planet).."

So, IMHO I interpret this to mean that the ship would NOT explode but would
enter jumpspace.. The energy discharge would however cause extensive damage
unless contained and earthed and (new house rule) the grid would be
completely disrupted to such an extent that the jumpfield would fail to
function causing the ship's crew to suffer fatal jump sickness.. Still the
need for blast bays however.

Here's a thought from another section of SOM - P.11 "the grid display
displayed a rupture.. tore a hole about half a metre across.. The jump field
closed up all right .. but the field deformation extended too far into the
room and he died a few days later of jump sickness..."

What if a hull breach means that the jump field flows through the hole and
blisters in ever extending, and thinning as it goes. Eventually it will be so
thin that it will rupture allowing jumpspace in - unless... The only thing
that can stop it would be for the players to create a grid (its my
understanding that the grid maintains the jump field - switch it off and the
field goes down!) to stop it extending any further. laugh as the players hunt
for enough lanthanum to create a 'patch', snigger as they try and figure out
how to power it up without destroying themselves.  By trying to place the
patch as close to the breached hole as possible it would restore or at least
strengthen the jump field integrity.

Another aside, re jumpspace dementia - I vote for the seeing things in the
black explanation except that the brain interprets the psionic reflection as
well as the visual.

On jumpspace monsters - in my campaign they exist: 

*Moses David

 Only known space-dwelling species discovered within Dagudashaag. The
Moses David inhabited the asteroid belt of Mianda (2533). Discovered
in 342 by the famous amateur biologist Patriach Moses David Ba-Shuu
of Shardi (285 - 397), Moses David were a type of border creature
between animal and plant similar in design concept to the Terran jelly-fish.
They were shaped like an open umbrella composed of a gelatinous-like
substance with several  'feeding' tentacle-like appendages growing
underneath. The main body could grow up to 35m across and the appendages
as long as 100m. Moses David existed by feeding on the ice and minerals
of the asteroids using their tentacles to anchor themselves and absorb
the minerals and frozen water into the vein-like structure that networked
across the umbrella where sunlight and hard radiation reacted with
the chlorophyll-like substance within their body or  'sail' to alter
the minerals into the living organic substances that they needed to
exist. Moses David moved around by means of gas sacs under the  'sail'
which were filled with carbon dioxide produced as a side product of
their metabolism. They could close the sail by muscular con traction
which caused a stream of gas to propel them from asteroid to asteroid.
Moses David were declared a protected species in 566.

Ref. Note: Moses David's absorb lanthanum and continue to grow until such
time as they enter jumpspace (almost always weave level 1) whereupon they
exist outside time and space.. Given the immensity of the dimension it is
rare for ships to encounter them and even rarer to see them through the
jumpfield though certain 'sensitives' can feel their presence - giant,
inhuman intelligences trapped, and dying yet unable to do so as time does not
exist...

Again just a personal bit of fun but it adds to the mythic nature of
JumpSpace - the ship that encountered them - bumped into one and for a second
the ships jump field enclosed it too .. A halucination? Then what is that
gunk all over the ships' hull???

Jae

_____________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 18:18 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In-Reply-To: <199710252258.SAA13231@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> I do like Honor Harrington. Of course, I also like the Hornblower books.

ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
about to do the same with Hornblower.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 18:18 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Plasma Pistols and FF&S Recoil

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971025233447.0075b754@mail.qrc.com>

Derek,

> >Funny, th only character to have a plasma pistol in my game was also a 
> >Vargr...
>  
> Funny, but I rather like them.  Most of my players (that were given the option
> at all) seemed to prefer playing Aslan.  Generally Aslan males, with Lots of
> Big Guns (*sigh*  The only really interesting Aslan character in my game was
> a female).  Personally, I prefer to play Vargr myself.

I think Vargr are my favourite Traveller aliens, they're certainly the most fun. 
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 18:18 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0779201aedf@[209.43.129.30]>

Kenji,

> >Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!
>  
> I think we need to start a support group (TravMom?) for mothers of
> half-divine Traveller guruspawn.

What worries me is the thought of the war if Marc ever decides the kids were 
a bad idea and starts hunting them down...

> Our first task will be, of course, to protect the wee ones by lobbying the
> Court to have the FS Sub-Orbital Gravitic Pogo-Stick banned.  Why can't
> that horrible Hengabar person and his friends make decent, useful things,
> like prams?

My God, can you imagine a pram designed by FS?! 
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:28:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Adv. 11

Hello,
><< >   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
> > most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
> > functioning cameras in every corridor.
>  >>
>I hope you were joking? Given the title of your E-Mail, I assume so, however,
>just in case...  Murder.. was one of the better Traveller adventures
>published for Classic Traveller - The aim was for the ref. to decide who the
>murder was and why.. More a how to.. but very enjoyable.. 

  I didn't mean the adventure was silly or anything (far from it), I just
said "imagine" because I knew that wasn't the case in the adventure. _I_
wouldn't want to live in a camera lined hamster cage. Hmm, "Nation without
Walls" from "Lacey and His Friends", anyone?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:04:26 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: RE: the draft

>
   
   Hi.
   
> From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
   
> Hmmm...Looking at my copy of T4, I still see a draft roll.
> It would appear to me, that when you register as an Imperial Subject (i.e. 
> get your ImpID), you either have proof of employment, or take a ride with 
> the boys in uniform.
> (Another reason, IMHO, that there is resentment against the Imperium, 
> regardless of the benefits of membership...)
   
   I find it highly unlikely that the Imperium drafts locals.  My take on
   the draft roll has always been that you get drafted into a local
   service, usually the planetary army or navy.  If the Imperium is short
   of personel, they can always abscond some from their vassals.  I can't
   even imagine an Imperium-wide registry.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:12:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Humour?

douglas@teleport.com In a message dated 25/10/97 04:05:19 GMT, you write:

>   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
> most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
> functioning cameras in every corridor.

To me, this is an example of the same flawed reasoning that has been
used in the piracy thread.  Just because something is possible
doesn't mean it is inevitable.  Putting cameras in places isn't
that expensive _today_, but they are hardly universal, even
in high crime places.  Because most the time it just isn't
worth the bother.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:10:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7: RFP on Web, admin stuff

The THUDDD 7 Request for Proposals (which was mailed to these lists on
Friday) is now also available online at the THUDDD Website:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Follow the link to THUDDD 7.

Also, I'm strongly considering having all THUDDD 7 voting web-based, using
a form input mechanism...how would people feel about this?

Also also, I'm considering a subsidized merchant and a lab ship for the
next two THUDDDs...anyone have opinions on these choices?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2016
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, October 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2017



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economic Data
Reading Query
RE: Economic Data
Small ships with jump drives
Non-Trav Announcement
Aslan crew
Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)
Cameras
Re: Definition: Grav Compensator
More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram
RE: the draft
Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram
Re: Humour
Re: Pocket Empires and Battle Rider
Re: SDB's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:13:10 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Economic Data

>
   
   Hi.
   
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
   
>>Probably.  I was being conservative, and recalled that Donitz needed a total
>>of about 3 U-Boats in the inventory for each one that could be on patrol at
>>any one point in time (this accounts for ships required for training, in
>>transit, and in refit at any one time).  I upped the figure to 4 to account
>>for ships that made port calls (or at least basic drive maintenance) of a 
>>few days between jumps.  While ships could deploy faster in wartime, in
>>peacetime, they'd be much less likely to risk back-to-back jumps.  
   
> How about compromising on 3:1?
   
   You may be interested to know that the 3:1 ratio is the current US
   peacetime average.
   
   -Rob
   

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:18:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Reading Query

Since we're tossing around influential authors and titles, and seem to
have a lot of well-read folks participating, I thought I'd ask whether
anyone is familiar with a short story I read lo these twenty years ago or
so and recalled the other day.  It was anthologized in a library book,
so I suspect it predates the '70's by a fair amount.

The setting is a "treasure trove" city on an alien planet, chock-full of
precious metals and artifacts.  But it's guarded by a fearsome robot who,
whenever someone comes calling, asks them an obscure question and then
kills them when they answer.  Our Hero and his partner have equipped their
ship with top-of-the-line library data in order to answer any question
perfectly via a radio link: but the partner still gets killed despite his 
flawless answers.

Our Hero then figures out that the robot _isn't_ looking for  answers, and
tries it out on non-sequiturs.  (Made-up example -- Q: "Who was the leading
artist of the Genji period on Maranatha XII?"  A: "Truly, art matters little
beside the eternal quest for wisdom.")  Sure enough, he passes safely through
the gauntlet and begins loading up the ship with booty.

It's a long, hard day of stevedore duty.  As the sun sets and the last
load is put in place, the robot, who's been tagging along asking question
throughout, inquires "Why do you want these things?"  "Because they're
pretty," replies our exhausted protagonist.

So the robot kills him.

Ring any bells?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:25:53 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Economic Data

On Sunday, October 26, 1997 7:40 AM, Hans Rancke-Madsen 
[SMTP:rancke@diku.dk] wrote:
> Derek Wildstar writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> >
> >I assume that all (or almost all) new construction for the Imperial Navy is
> >at TL-15.  Lower-TL ships would be acquired by planetary navies and other
> >local forces.
>
> This really isn't logical. A TL 15 world will pay 30% of its military budget
> to the Imperium. The most efficient way for the Imperium to collect those
> taxes is by taking them out in ships built in that system. Fine. But the
> half of those taxes will go to the subsector forces, and they too would get
> TL 15 ships from that world. And finally the planetary navy would use their
> 42% or more on locally produced TL 15 ships. Moving on to the TL 14 world
> next door, the Imperium would get their 30% and again it would be most
> efficient to take their taxes out in locally produced ships, this time
> TL 14 ships. It's true that the taxes from worlds that don't produce ships
> at all would propably mostly be spent on TL 15 worlds. And in every case,
> down to TL 9 much of the planetary navy will be built in-system (Though
> planetary navies is allowed to buy from any world within the subsector
> (more propably withing reasonable range).

But what is logical and efficient has nothing to do with government. 
 Political expiedency is the rule.

First off, the shipyard is not necessarily run by the government.  It is a 
division of some corp or mega-corp.  Placing the burden of taxes on that 
one company or consortium is a trifle unfair, no?  Second, there are a slew 
of political reasons why the Imperium can not go directly to a shipyard for 
work, starting off with the Archduke's sister's husband's brother who acts 
as a general contractor for that work normally.  Why, to cut him out of the 
project would mean...  Well, it couldn't...  Ummm, take my word for it, 
he's important.  :)

Governments, even the best of 'em, suffer from inefficiency and lack of 
direction.  A dispersed self-perpetuating oligarchy such as the Imperium 
would not even come near what I would envision as the best.
> >>>[Patrol ships]
> >>I think you are being overly cautious here.
> >
> >Probably.  I was being conservative, and recalled that Donitz needed a total
> >of about 3 U-Boats in the inventory for each one that could be on patrol at
> >any one point in time (this accounts for ships required for training, in
> >transit, and in refit at any one time).  I upped the figure to 4 to account
> >for ships that made port calls (or at least basic drive maintenance) of a
> >few days between jumps.  While ships could deploy faster in wartime, in
> >peacetime, they'd be much less likely to risk back-to-back jumps.
>
> How about compromising on 3:1?

Actually 4:1 is a good estimate.  The USN (when we had the budget) would 
have one carrier BG working up for deployment, one carrier BG deployed, one 
carrier BG on post deployment standdown (and being in reserve if the caca 
hit the oscellating air mover), and one carrier BG in maintenance (either 
in a shipyard or by a tender).

This is, btw, why I have always disagreed with the 1 world 1 SDB theory of 
piracy suppression.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:09:27 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Small ships with jump drives

I wonder ...

Can a ship smaller than 100 tons have a jump engine ?

I use T4 and Starships. While designing ships, I realized that there are no
figures for jumpdrives for smaller ships. Why ?

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:15:08 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Non-Trav Announcement

This post has absolutely nothing to do with Traveller, but I wanted let
my friends on the TML in on a recent decision I've made in my life.

For the past 7 years, I've had this incredible dream of making a movie. 
After graduation from college, though, I did like all other good college
students did, I went off and persued a career in medical sales instead
of following my heart.

I always had the intention of working on my film in my off time.  I
thought I'd make money at a career to finance my dream.

Well, here I am, 7 years later, almost 32 years old, and I don't have
anything to show for it.  My passion is still my passion, but I don't
have a script, and I sure as hell don't have a complete feature film.

Some of you know that my mom passed away a short while ago.  When you
loose somebody like that, it sure makes you think of your own
mortality.  It makes you re-evaluate your own life and goals.

I thought to myself that I've got this passionate dream, and if I keep
going the way I'm going, I'm never going to do anything about it.

With this in mind, I made a big decision last week.  I'm going to devote
my life right now to making this thing--my film.  I've moved out of my
condo and in with my dad (he needs me right now anyway).  I've paid off
all of my bills, and I've quit my job.

I'm going to work at getting this independent film made as a full time
proposition.  In order to eat, I'm going to get a part time
job--something dead-head that I won't have to think about or bring home.

I plan to have the script written in a few months--probably about
three.  Then, I'll be raising money to film it.  I want to get principal
photography completed sometime next year, then I'll raise more money and
go into post.

It's truly amazing the support I'm getting.  I really had no idea how
people would respond to this, but I actually have people cheering for
me.  My dad, brother and sister are all for it.  My best friend gave me
$1000 towards the filming budget for next year.  All told, the few
people I've spoken with so far about this have contributed to getting
this thing done, and I've raised $2200 in a week.

I'm not soliciting funds here on the TML, so please don't take it that
way.  I'm just excited about getting this thing going, and I'm reporting
to anybody that is interested in this that it is finally, really,
honestly, moving in that direction.

I won't be wasting bandwidth on the TML with this non-Traveller related
material--it's not the place--but I've come to know some of you quite
well, and I wanted to share this with you.

I'm extremely excited, and determined, about this.

If anybody has comments, please don't bore the rest of the list with
them.  You are welcome (anytime, as always), to write me in private.

Thanks for letting me share this with you.

....and now, back to your regularly scheduled Traveller communications.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:57:06 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Aslan crew

Can you please advise me: is it normal for Aslan crewmembers to:

	1. Run up the curtains and sit on the curtain-pole?
	2. Sleep on any console that is about to be used?
	3. Rip the Captain's chair to bits despite there being a perfectly good
scratching pole on the 	bridge?	
	4. Kick all the litter out of the tray, all over the galley floor?
	5. Sit by the airlock door, yowling softly to be let out, while the ship
is in Jump?
	6. Deposit fragments of small rodents outside favoured crewmwmbers' door?
	7. Chase one another about the ship, over furniture, delicate equipment
and other crewmembers?
	8. Go berserk at the sight of the flea-powder?
	9. Hear a tin of Tuna being picked up  from anywhere in the ship, and be
in the Galley 
	before you're finished opening it?
	10. Climb into cupboards you's swear they can't reach, then get stuck and
claw you to bits while 	you're trying to rescue them? Favoured cupboards
seem to contain glassware, which makes a 	nice sound as the frantic Aslan
tries to turn around or resist being lifted out.

I'm just glad we haven't got a dog!

Martin.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1997 23:31:18 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)

Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  2.62 tonnes;  kCr 113
Chassis:
     14.0 kL cylinder airframe (5.10 m long x 1.7 m wide x 1.7 m high,
wingspan 10 m);  Structure: 154 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     250 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 250 L of
high-grade hcarb (250 kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 250 kW aircraft;  Maximum Speed: 224 km/h, Take-Off
Speed: 68 km/h;  Range: 1788 km;  Agility: +3DM
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  5 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL8, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 10 cm per km of range
Other:
     Options: wet bar
     1.00 kL of cargo space

Small and relatively cheap, the Mavros is typically operated by charter
companies serving medium-distance shuttle routes. Roomy seats and a built-in
wet bar ensure a comfortable trip for passengers. While not fast enough to
compete with express aircraft, the Mavros is considerably cheaper to own and
operate, and admirably serves its niche.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1997 23:43:17 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Cameras

>Putting cameras in places isn't
>that expensive _today_, but they are hardly universal, even
>in high crime places.  Because most the time it just isn't
>worth the bother.

Additionally, they don't appear to solve the crime problem.  British studies
showed that cameras shifted crime into unphotographed areas rather than
eliminated it.  Thus, you can make your nice Tory neighbourhood safer, but
the nearby set of Council flats gets more dangerous.

ObTrav: This could be a useful plot device to make some parts of a city much
more dangerous than others.  The group, planning a shady deal, passes a sign
reading "You are now entering an unmonitored area" and figures they can start
talking.  Meanwhile, the local muggers, concentrated in this small
neighbourhood, figure they can start working.

StarTown has just got a lot nastier on Sylea! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:03:00 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definition: Grav Compensator

>Inertial compensators only *cancel* _inertial_ forces. It doesn't
>generate an opposite gravitational force to cancel it. It's just
>"magically" gone. Inertial forces are distinct from gravitational
>forces.
>
Inertial comps simply sense the accleration and compensates with
floorfields, they consists of plus and minus floorfield plates mounted
along all three axes. They also need to be fast to compensate quick enough.
They're just called Inertial Comps by nontechnical people (that's my take
on it anyway)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:32:16 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram

	Please note that I did not go over the top and put in a twin
..50-cal mount, outsize T-plates, or anything eqully insane.  This is IMHO
about as close to an actual pram as one can get with the VDS.  It's a
little bit big, and a little bit heavy, but hey :).


Perambulator (TL7)
Designed by R.D. Elliott

Summary:
     0.10 displacement ton open-topped box;  25.3 tonnes;  Cr 6448
Chassis:
     1.40 kL open-topped box (1.7 m long x 90 cm wide x 90 cm high);
Structure: 21.8 kg of light alloy, rated for 0.3Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1
armour rating

Performance:
     125 kW TL1 Rowers power plant;  Fuel: 25.0 L of food (25.0 kg), 1
hours supply
     Propulsion System: 125 kW wheels;  Maximum Speed: 8 km/h;  Range: 7
km;  Agility: +1DM
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  0 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.


Description:
	Ok... so this is really silly.  So sue me :).  It does, however,
show up some shortcomings of the VDS.  For one, it won't let you put power
plants (i.e. parents) on the outside.  Crewstations are fixed in size and
cannot be adjusted to take into account age, size, or degree of toilet
training of passengers.  Furthermore it does not allow  you to adjust
ejection seats to fit the same criteria.  Food supply for parents is
ludicrously large; mommy & daddy must be on a high-bulk diet.   Aside from
that, though, everyone should run out and buy Macs so that they can use
Rob's CSC.  It  rocks.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:10:56 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: the draft

- ----------
From: 	Robert Flammang[SMTP:flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu]
Sent: 	Sunday, October 26, 1997 11:04 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM; undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: 	RE: the draft

>

   Hi.

> From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

> Hmmm...Looking at my copy of T4, I still see a draft roll.
> It would appear to me, that when you register as an Imperial Subject 
(i.e.
> get your ImpID), you either have proof of employment, or take a ride with 
> the boys in uniform.
> (Another reason, IMHO, that there is resentment against the Imperium,
> regardless of the benefits of membership...)

   I find it highly unlikely that the Imperium drafts locals.  My take on
   the draft roll has always been that you get drafted into a local
   service, usually the planetary army or navy.  If the Imperium is short
   of personel, they can always abscond some from their vassals.  I can't
   even imagine an Imperium-wide registry.

   -Rob
___________________________

Please understand, I would never even dream of proposing a Imperium-wide 
registry.  Why bother?  System and Sub-sector government are fully capable 
of administering planetary populations.

I am saying, based on what I am seeing in CT, MT, TNE and T4 that some form 
of mandatory employment through age 22 does seem to be in effect.  I do 
think that planetary and system requirements would be filled first, but we 
have already established that the SubSector and Imperial beauracracies do 
require manpower to fill positions, be it in the military, the merchant 
service, or the beauracracy.
_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:20:23 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, October 26, 1997 10:03 PM
Subject: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram


<Snipity>
>Summary:
>     0.10 displacement ton open-topped box;  25.3 tonnes;  Cr 6448
>Chassis:
>     1.40 kL open-topped box (1.7 m long x 90 cm wide x 90 cm high);
>Structure: 21.8 kg of light alloy, rated for 0.3Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1
>armour rating
>
<Snip>
>Description:
> Ok... so this is really silly.  So sue me :).  It does, however,
>show up some shortcomings of the VDS.  For one, it won't let you put power
>plants (i.e. parents) on the outside.  Crewstations are fixed in size and
>cannot be adjusted to take into account age, size, or degree of toilet
>training of passengers.  Furthermore it does not allow  you to adjust
>ejection seats to fit the same criteria.  Food supply for parents is
>ludicrously large; mommy & daddy must be on a high-bulk diet.   Aside from
>that, though, everyone should run out and buy Macs so that they can use
>Rob's CSC.  It  rocks.
>
>
>Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay Cr 6448 to walk the tike down the street!
Seems that the pricing in the program may be a bit high for some cases as
well. All in all though, from your other posts I really wish Rob would port
it to the Evil Empire, I have too much invested to change!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 23:18:56 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

On 10/26/97 at 06:18 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> I do like Honor Harrington. Of course, I also like the Hornblower books.

>ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
>about to do the same with Hornblower.

That's good news!  Over here in the US we got some of the Sharpe's on
public broadcasting's Masterpiece Theatre. They were all set in Spain,
though. Aren't there some Sharpe novels set before and after the Peninsula
Campaign?

As for Hornblower, I'd *love* for somebody to do a whole series following
his career from Midshipman to Admiral.  Of course, that could be several
years worth of shows. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:44:32 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In a message dated 97-10-25 21:18:55 EDT, eris@pen.net writes:

<< Has he (or anybody) explained just how his STL/FTL systems are supposed to
 work?
 
 I get the impression it's all based on gravity control with ?high? gravity
 bands running from the Alpha to the Beta nodes along the top and bottom of
 the ships. Just how this translates into forward momentum, I don't know. 
 Anyway ships can accelerate at several hundred g's and missles at
 ?thousands?, I think.
 
 At FTL, I *think* the ship translates into a ?hyperspace? where the Alpha
 nodes are unfolded into ?gravity? sails that catch some sort of gravity
 currents that flow naturally.  In this hyperspace the effective velocity is
 greater than c, but I don't know exactly how much.
 
 Then there are the ?junction? points that allow instantanous movement from
 place to place. Natural wormholes, maybe?
 
 If we had some details about how his IC/AG and STL/FTL worked we could
 pretty easily adapt the rest of it to Traveller. Or, actually, adapt the
 rest of Traveller to his universe. >>

Well, everything you wrote sounds like a perfect description of it from the
book!  The drive nodes are supposed to channel a "wedge" of stressd gravity
bands above and below the ship...allowing it to achieve accels of over 500 Gs
for light combatants, and even 300-350 GS for superdreadnoughts.  This is one
of the things about his universe I like... they operate at VERY high
velocities!

The speed of the ships is only limited by the grav comps...which is Traveller
related also (I wonder how many people actually realize that 6-G combat
vessels are purely TL 15 creations, since it's only then that G-comps handle
6-Gs [per FF&S2] ).

Hyperspace is used to make the long crossings between stars...by changing the
wedge to the sail configuration, it is supposed to use the grav waves to
increase accel by 10 times...since about the max accel under normal drive is
near .6-.7c, this means that the ships will be doing 6-7 times lightspeed.

And then the wormholes...just what they sound like.  The only problem w/
making all this work for Trav is his universe just moves too fast.  I may be
wrong, but his universe seems loosely tied with the STARFIRE game universe
also, which he helped create.  

But still...absolutely great books!  Makes me wish they had busted Hornblower
a few times, so we could have had some more books!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:03:20 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In a message dated 97-10-26 15:13:59 EST, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
writes:

<< Eris,
 
 > I do like Honor Harrington. Of course, I also like the Hornblower books.
 
 ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
 about to do the same with Hornblower.
 ______________________________________ >>
Captain Horatio Hornblower was already made into a movie...in the 1950's I
believe.  Starred Gregory Peck and Virginia Mayo. Was a reasonably good
action flick.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 05:59:57 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

On Sun, 26 Oct 97 18:18 GMT0, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0779201aedf@[209.43.129.30]>
> 
> Kenji,
> 
> > >Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!
> >  
> > I think we need to start a support group (TravMom?) for mothers of
> > half-divine Traveller guruspawn.
> 
> What worries me is the thought of the war if Marc ever decides the kids were 
> a bad idea and starts hunting them down...

Ah, Grandfather!



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:55:19 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram

Roderick wrote:

>        Please note that I did not go over the top and put in a twin
>.50-cal mount, outsize T-plates, or anything eqully insane.  This is IMHO

And why _not_, sir?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  We are not amused.  Though TravMoms is
surely pleased with this bout of sanity.  And I must point out -- it isn't
quite large enough to accomodate Leroy.

I think the time has come for me to get CSC and permit the Sayat Bureau for
the Operationalization of Ordinances and Munitions (SayBOOM) to begin
production of _their_ conception of a modern battlefield perambulator.
There is absolutely no reason why pre-citizens who are not yet
independently mobile should be denied the right to participate in
safeguarding civilization from Lurking Alien Evil.  Indeed not.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:34:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Humour

Hello,
>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:12:52 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Humour?
>
>douglas@teleport.com In a message dated 25/10/97 04:05:19 GMT, you write:
>
>>   Actually, as has been pointed out elsewhere, near future tech can make
>> most crime absurdly risky - imagine "Murder on Arcturus Station" with
>> functioning cameras in every corridor.
>
>To me, this is an example of the same flawed reasoning that has been
>used in the piracy thread.  Just because something is possible
>doesn't mean it is inevitable.  Putting cameras in places isn't
>that expensive _today_, but they are hardly universal, even
>in high crime places.  Because most the time it just isn't
>worth the bother.

  Umm, reasoning? Why would I bother with that? I didn't make any
conclusions, after all...

  Here's an interesting proposition for the Traffic Control types;
you're being asked to haul a passenger in your trader to a pre-stellar
tech world (TL 7-8?). You're required to go through the starport,
preferably without a search. The passenger _must_ not go through the
port, but has no official standing (i.e., not IN, noble, or eminent
mafioso). The passenger has extensive marine type experience for a
non-combat insertion.

  How do you do it with a minimum risk of you or the passenger getting
caught? (No, not a puzzle, just working out solutions). Payment is on
completion. No, they won't tell you who he is or what he's doing.
  
        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:52:59 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires and Battle Rider

        Seeing how i am very unsatisfied w/ the resolution of combat in
Battle Rider, I was wondering if any of u had any ideas for a conversion of
Battle Rider Point Values to RU.  I see that the Point Value is based off of
gross tonnage and tech level but wanted to fish this idea out to the tml
before i really thought about it.  I don't know what/if any other
alternatives were offered for PE naval combat resolution.  I think it should
be somewhat tactically based.  I envision kind of a strategic level Battle
Rider, not just limited to the one scenario.  This might not be appropriate
for Pocket Empires, but I think i'll try it out.  
          What i'd need is rules (preferably TNE/BR/BL compatible, but i'm
not greedy)  I'll probably stick w/ an abstract system of my own design for
dirt based mass combat, but anything from WBH to even the grossly abstract
one of PE could and would be an alternative for me.  Also maybe some
templates for deep meson sights and other types of defenses... What else is
there for planetary defense?  Other than the local navy/sdb's etc.  Orbital
battle stations?  Planetary Black/white globes?  Big point defense systems...
 I can also see massive sensor arrays, etc.  This whole bloated paragraph is
fishing for ideas.  Food for thought?      

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:31:26 -0700
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: SDB's

> Date:          Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:37 -0700
> From:          shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> 
>   For wartime (only) I'd suggest that SDB's can live off pre-positioned
> supplies. No-one with FFW has volunteered data, but I would assume that
> only systems with valuable worlds have SDB's in peacetime. I agree that
> backwater worlds that should still have small freighter traffic will
> not normally have SDB's, and that these are the worlds where starships
> would be stationed or patrol intermittently.

   The majority of worlds on the FFW map have no SDBs, and, from a 
casual glance, a good startport or the presence of a Naval Base does 
not increase the odds of the system having any (or for that matter, 
neither does being a subsector capital help).  It looks like most 
high-pop worlds have at least 50+ SDBs.  The highest totals on the 
Imperial side are 1000 at Rhylanor, and 500 at each of Louzy and 
Rethe.  Of those non-high-pop worlds that have SDBs, they normally 
have around a dozen ships.


- --
Edward Swatschek  *  edjs@bitslayer.net
                     edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2017
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, October 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2018



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Mark Seeman's DNA code
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Larry Niven
The Imperial Creed
RE: SDBs
Essential Authors?
Re: Larry Niven
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
CSC Porting
Re: Hiding in plain sight
Re: Pirates exist because...
Re: In Orbit
T4 FFS2  and Emperor's Vehicles question
Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)
Re: Small ships with jump drives
RE: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)
Re: Economic Data (long)
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Aliens Vol 1
Re: CSC Porting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:02:29 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Mark Seeman's DNA code

Many thanks Mark for the fun had this weekend cracking your DNA code.  If
it's any help I got a good buzz from finally seeing the message appear.

And just to show off....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
CTCCGACGACCAGCACCGATGGCACTCGAACGAGCACACCGACTGCGT
CTAGCAAGGCCTATCGCAATCATGATTCAGCCTCAGCTCATGCCCGAG
GCACCTATGATGATCCTAGCACTCGCAGCAAGTATGGCAGAACGACGT
CCAATGATCGCACAGCCTCTCCGAGCACCGGAGGCACCTATGGACCTC
GCAAGGATCCTTATGCCTCTCCTGCGTATGGCCATACACATGATGCGT
CTAGCACTCCAGCCGCGACTCCACGAGGCAAAGACTGCCAACAAAGCA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:08:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

In mail you write:

> Our first task will be, of course, to protect the wee ones by lobbying the
> Court to have the FS Sub-Orbital Gravitic Pogo-Stick banned.  Why can't
> that horrible Hengabar person and his friends make decent, useful things,
> like prams?

Hengbar *does* make prams. The specs bear a close resemblance to the
Russian BMP-3. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:57:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

In mail you write:

>>Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
>>(usually being chased by villages waving torches)

> Just how do those villages move? Grav villages? or maye walkers? What a
> thought! I'll have to look up a planet that mobile villages can fit on ;^)

No, they're just Baba Yaga's relatives. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:05:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

In mail you write:

>>FOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSHFOOSH
>>
>>BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG
>>
>>Ahhh...I can dream, can't I? :->
>
>         <g>  You ever play SJG's Car Wars?

All I want is a trunk-mounted PGMP-15 to "discourage" tailgaters.

BTW, you *do* realize that you can change the names a bit and put the
entire Car Wars world on a planet somewhere in the Imperium, don't you?
Another "fun" place to let the players visit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:02:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?

In mail you write:

>         Visualize this little scene we came up wit a few months back:
>
> Captain [pleading]: But we need a steward!
>
> Aslan [wearing little French Maid's outfit, with tray of drinks]:  I tell
> you, I will wear your warrior's costume, BUT I WILL NOT SERVE DRINKS!

I don't think I'd want to be in the same *star system* when he finds
out the history of that "uniform". Hell, he'd be able to get his entire
*clan* to go after you!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:59:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > For the records here are my top ten:
>> >
>> > Van Vogt
>> 
>> Ooh! "Voyage of the Space Beagle"... Picture the players landing on the
>> planet with the Coeurls on it.... :-)
>
> Couerls, hell.  Imagine what an army of Ixtls would do!
>
> Captain : "Life support, would you please repeat that?!"
>
> Life support : "Yes, sir, I coulda swore I saw something that looked
> like Satan fly past!  All scarlet and mean looking!  Dropped right thru
> the ceiling and then thru the floor like they weren't even there!"
>
> Engineering : "Captain!  Captain!  You won't believe what I just saw
> down here in engineering!"
>
> Captain (to bridge officer) : "Am I missing something here, or have half
> my crew gone nuts?"

Luckily there can't *be* an army of Ixtls. Not unless the players lose.
And I do think that most players are paranoid enough to survive that.

To switch books, I'd like to see some players land on a planet with the
Weapon Shops of Isher on it. Specificly, all the trigger happy, overly
be-weaponed types. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:49:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

In mail you write:

> Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
>> 
>> > From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
>> 
>> > What about Keith Laumer's Bolo books?  I'd think self-aware battle-tanks
>> > would get you gear-heads computing and designing.  :)
>> 
>> I thought it would be very cool to do a Striker Bolo design, but I never
>> had the patience to design the zillion subsystems, and was doing all of
>> my Striker designs in the days before easy spreadsheets (although I did
>> try to put High Guard into Lotus 123 when I was a grad student).  I'm
>> not much of a gearhead, anyway.
>
> I'd still like to see how they would be treated, using the FF&S II
> rules, as I do not have those myself.  Anyone else want to take a crack
> at these?

Well, one of the *big* problems is the hull. It is stated in one of the
Bolo stories that the Mark III had 25 *millimeters* of "durachrome"
armor, and that this was protection against anything short of a
*contact* nuclear blast!

I'm not sure we have anything *that* tough available in Traveller.

Also, by the Mark X or so, we are dealing with *serious* AI. A Mark X
or Mark XII (I can't recall, and the book isn't accessible) was
sufficiently "human" that it fought on against impossible odds when
logic dictated that it should have retreated. When asked *why* it did
such an illogical thing, it replied "For the honor of the Regiment,
sir."

By the Mark XXXV Bolo, you have something that would shrug off the
Virus as a nuisance. In fact there are several instances of that range
of Bolo *taking over* computers when the Enemy was stupid enough to let
them close enough.

I'd make them something that explorers find on the fringes of a remote
pocket empire, where they are relics from before that empire's "Long
Night". Said Long Night being caused by a war with aliens that the
humans (a new major race) barely won.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:47:27 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: The Imperial Creed

Something i saw in the manual of MT 1:

The imperial creed

I proudly stand as an Imperial Soldier
and hereby swear a solemn oath to live my life, 
to the best of my ability,
in the name of
the Imperium

May my actions be brave and my judgement be clear.
May my service always honor the Imperium.
I firmly resolve to resist greed, corruption, 
and self advancement against the Imperium.

I promise to preserve peace and to accept
alien races with friendship and equality
so long as their intentions do not threaten the
welfare of the Imperial Empire.

In the name of honor and justice, i steadfastly swear
to lay down my life for the preservation of the Imperium.
Though my life may end in the call of duty,
i promise to obey asll orders given to me by my superior
officers, and i pledge to exhaust my every ounce of strength, 
courage and will to defeat my enemies.



Might be nice to use this when playing a game of Traveller, where the 
players are all recruits! Interesting look at the self-view of the 
Imperium, tho!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:40:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: RE: SDBs

Edward Swatschek writes:

>   The majority of worlds on the FFW map have no SDBs, and, from a 
>casual glance, a good startport or the presence of a Naval Base does 
>not increase the odds of the system having any (or for that matter, 
>neither does being a subsector capital help).  It looks like most 
>high-pop worlds have at least 50+ SDBs.  The highest totals on the 
>Imperial side are 1000 at Rhylanor, and 500 at each of Louzy and 
>Rethe.  Of those non-high-pop worlds that have SDBs, they normally 
>have around a dozen ships.

Bear in mind that the forces in FFW appears to have been "abbreviated".
The average Imperial fleet has 8-10 combat squadrons and the average
subsector (colonial) fleet ought to have about the same. Thus initial
deployments on the FFW map ought to have been ~70 squadrons (the FFW
covers about 4 subsectors, IIRC). Assuming that half the forces in the
rest of the Domain of Deneb + Corridor was left in place, immidiate
reinforcements (those that comes as soon as they hear of the war) ought
to be about 325 squadrons. Further reinforcements reactivated reserves)
are more difficult to estimate, since we don't know just how many ships
are laid up in ordinary (my estimates vary from 50% to 800% of active
strength, depending on assumptions), but they should begin to show up
before six months are out (anything laid up at Rhylanor begins to become
available after three months (it takes about 10 weeks to reactivate a
battleship).

The SDB strengths are propably equally flawed.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:00:07 GMT0
From: terry.williams@luton.ac.uk
Subject: Essential Authors?

Hi,
	noticed you've been discussing "Travelleresque:" Authors,

I can't believe no-one mentioned Vernor Vinge's "A Fire upon the Beyond" or
Peter F. Hamilton's  "The Reality Dysfunction" - the latter is very traveller
with the addition of Biotech

Most of those in the lists I agree with but definitely not the order.

The Larry Niven is passable now but when a lot of it was written (60/70s) it
was refreshingly new. In fact I'm sure Marc would cite him as one of the
Traveller sources.

Terry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:10:14 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

Sounds good Leonard. I have all the BOLO books myself, and have
converted those tanks to Gamma world stats.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:07:56 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

I never read "Weapon Shops of Isher".  Wasn't there a sequel to that as
well?

How about the Dreegh from AE Van Vogt's "SuperMind"?  Interstellar
vampires with 500 IQ and reflexes that are 100 times quicker then a
normal human.  They drain 'life' from their vitcims.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1997 14:02:09 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Porting

>All in all though, from your other posts I really wish Rob would port
>it to the Evil Empire, I have too much invested to change!

I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How much am
I offered?

Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)  I
can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into converting
the code...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:25:56 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Hiding in plain sight

>It is my belief that, with the proper equipment, a ship can change it's
>'signature', make itself appear larger or smaller, change it's
>transponder signal (albeit with multiple transponders), and even reduce
>the effective range that it can be detected at.
>
>That does not mean I believe that the equipment is cheap, easy to get,
>or even legal to possess.

The problem is that your examples (about tanks etc) are not valid in the
currrent thread (about ships and mostly passive IR signatures). The IR
signatures are governed by thermodynamics and we're not extrapolating
sensors into the future - these are off the shelf sensors of today. What
the poor pirates has to do is the same as real pirates of today do: ignore
stealth and stuff (leave that to defense budget backed projects)
concentrate on looking legitimate. Bogus transponders, faked distresscalls
etc would be valid pirate tactics as well as moles in the crew/passengers
of the target ship that disable p-plant/comm etc.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:38:30 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
>
>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens
>for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no piracy
>problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available and
>deployed means that there is a threat that needs a solution.

I believe that parts of the SDI project still gets funding - therefore your
argument is moot.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:16:29 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: In Orbit

<plug mode ON>
Those interested in orbital dynamics etc can take a look at the game
"Teazle" that has a asteroids like game where one is in control of a
shuttle orbiting earth and try to pick up as many sattelites as possible
with a limited fuel supply.

Mac:
===
http://www.tele2.se/cgi-bin/bcount?http://www.tele2.se/40/teazle/T_DEMO_S.SI
T&teazle_mac_sit

PC:
===
http://www.tele2.se/cgi-bin/bcount?http://www.tele2.se/40/teazle/T_DEMO_E.ZI
P&teazle_pc_e_zip

<plug mode OFF>


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:45:25 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRhys01@aol.com
Subject: T4 FFS2  and Emperor's Vehicles question

    The HEAP warhead penetration value derived from the method listed on page
41 of FFS2 (Multiply the bore size (in centimeters) by the penetration
modifier in Table 79.) seems to be much too large. A 4cm (40mm) HEAP warhead
at TL9+ has a penetration value of 68.4, which is way beyond the values you
get for any other type of weapon. What is the correct formula or conversion
for T4? 
     The AFV's and Personnel Carriers shown in Emperor's Vehicles appear to
have way too much armor. Some of the heavier AFV's seem to be completely
invulnerable to the most powerful weapons in Emperor's Arsenal. So what's the
fix for this? Right now I'm using the listed value for the frontal arc only
(which is still too high), with 2/3 of value for the sides, and 1/2 for belly
and deck.
         Email address: lrdrhys01@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)

In-Reply-To: <199710252040.WAA10766@student.liu.se>

Jens,

> >BTW, who's Arthur C. Clarke? :)
>  
> He wrote 2001 ... and a few more SF books.

Not to mention inventing the communications satellite.

I forget the wording of the Clarke-Asimov Agreement - anyone remember 
which one is officially the world's best SF writer, and which is the 
world's best science writer?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:07:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives

>I wonder ...
>
>Can a ship smaller than 100 tons have a jump engine ?
>
>I use T4 and Starships. While designing ships, I realized that there are no
>figures for jumpdrives for smaller ships. Why ?

Although those books may not explicitly say so, there is an older rule from
Classic Traveller that no ship below 100 tons may have a jump drive.

The same rule was broken by the Adventure entitled _Leviathan_ (13?) which
had jump message torps (unmanned).  This whole concept has been the source
of much debate here on this list in the past.

Megatraveller generally followed this rule, but I think TNE did not,
although Fire Fusion & Steel (I) may have made ships less than 100 dtons
inconvenient from a design standpoint.

Suffice it to say that, if you wish to design vessels smaller than 100
dtons in your campaign, the official rules will probably not support you.
You may need to interpolate or guess at certain aspects of the data.

Have Fun!

And watch out for Jump Torpedos approaching at relativistic velocities!

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:35:58 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2) (fwd)

At 08:51 PM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>Perhaps the initial numbers were a bit skewed, but is the process 
>incorrect?

I think it might be, but I do not have great alternatives to offer.

An analysis of the number of skills a CT player got showed that the Scouts
alone, 1/6th of the population, could produce any conceivable number of
Pilot-6s, if the chargen charts represented the average person's life.

I do not have a good solution for you, save to note that the military,
which are represented in four of the basic services should really be far,
far less than 10% of the population most of the time, and that producing
enough of those ships would consume way, way too much cash.

My general rule is that you must pick one place to stand, state it loudly,
and then see what it implies.  I have settled on PCGPP as my spot, and it
seems that we should have an average one of about 10KCr/person, +/- 3KCr.
(Drawn from Striker, food costs in T4, present day GNPs and a credit<->$
conversion.  Which one you make "real" and which you make derived will
determine what number you get.)

Given that, we know how much money the Imperium has as an economic body,
and then we can decide how much of it goes through space, and how much is
used to defend that part going through space.  Once you know that, you can
decide if ships are too cheap or too expensive in order to determine how
the world works.

As far as the skill level thing goes, I have decided to create some
standards, purely by fiat.  These will state the odds of encountering a
certain skill level in a profession, the rough fraction of the society that
includes that profession, and whether the profession is especially
selective or profitable.  With luck, I can then beat the task system and
chargen to make that happen.

God only knows when I will find the time to do this, though.

, a 
Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:04:46 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Economic Data (long)

At 12:14 AM 10/26/97 -0700, Dave Summers wrote:
>Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:03:38 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>>Some Numbers About Piracy, Trade and Imperial Budgets
>>Summary: The Imperium is BIG, and it's WEALTHY.  It's requently hard to
grasp
>>just how big and how wealthy, because the numbers are usually astronomical
>>(and I hope you'll pardon the pun).
>
>[Stuff about what the Imperium could afford to do...]
>
>I've tried to make this point before.  Yes, huge organizations
>have huge resources.  Does this mean they do things that modest
>organizations wouldn't do because they don't bother with the cost?
>_No_.  If anything they watch their expenses in a way that may
>be even more detailed.  Why?  That is because those organizations
>with mind boggling resources have a mind boggling huge number of
>things that it could do competing for those resources.

True.  On the other hand, while they have a lot of things they could do, it
is very important to know if they could possibly do prevent piracy, were
they willing.  If they can't, then the debate is over.  For example, if
ships travelled in real space between stars, it would be very difficult to
police that much area, even if they wanted to more than anything.

I do not think there is much disagreement that they could, *** if they
wanted to ***, put enough SDBs in orbit around one gas giant and one planet
per system to make snaking in, piracy, and other good things impossible.
Your thesis is that there would be enough they would want to do with those
resources that they would not.

>  The
>Imperium is not going to spend money to stop piracy because
>it doesn't care about the money and if the cost to completely
>eliminate piracy exceeds the losses involved, then you have a
>situation where such an effort is dubious, regardless of whether
>we are talking about  10% if the Imperium's budget or 0.00001%
>of the budget.

And I have tried to make these points before:

The ships that might be lost cost a hell of a lot.  Up to a factor of 25
more than present day vessels with similar missions.  Even a very small
chance of loss will make a note holder uncomfortable, and note holders tend
to control money.

The cargoes needed to pay for these ungodly expensive ships have to produce
revenue sufficient to pay for an ungodly expensive ship.  Simple economics,
thus they also will have a relatively high value.  Perhaps not enough to
justify anti piracy without the expensive ships, but still, expensive
enough to make an insurer unhappy if the chance of loss is significant.

The military ships needed to defend these merchants do not cost much more
than the merchants, so it takes very, very few incidents to justify anti
piracy efforts, especially since it takes only a few hundred thousand
people to pay the costs for a patrol ship, and a single loss of a large
merchant to justify three Kinunirs.

_Interstellar_ piracy prevention can be afforded, if the Imperium wants to,
because of the aforementioned low cost of military ships, the small area
which you need to defend to prevent interstellar piracy, and the military
budget they have.  You may argue still that they do not, but I just do not
see how such large down sides, and small (relative) costs could fail to
justify it.

Interplanetary piracy opens up a much larger area, and I would be very
surprised if it could be stopped by any other method than convoys.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:09:26 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

Andrew writes

>ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
>about to do the same with Hornblower.

I can't decide if I'm happy or sad that they're doing Horblower and not
O'Brian...I suppose they can get all the special effects right on Hornblower
before moving on to the more important stuff. I suppose Hornblower is easier
to cast than O'Brian, too.

(For those who have no idea who I'm talking about - Patrick O'Brian has
written a long, brilliant series of Napoleonic naval stories centered around
Jack Aubrey - a captain in the RN - and Stephen Maturin, his particular
friend, surgeon, and intelligence agent. They're (in my opinion) much better
than the Hornblower novels - more humour, better characterization, better
period feel (although even O'Brian admits that Forrester was possibly better
at describing battles, O'Brian is definitely better at describing everything
else. The first book (one of the weaker ones) is "Master and Commander" - 
either it or "HMS Surprise" are good places to start. They're a great
inspiration for a Navy-based campaign - my view of Traveller naval combat and
lifestyle is fairly close to Napoleonic.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:37:45 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Aliens Vol 1

At 06:11 PM 10/24/97 +0000, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <971023115055_504733232@emout01.mail.aol.com>
>
>>  On the Imperium Games web site Aliens, Vol.1 was supposed to be
>>  released on Oct. 10th.  Has anyone seen it yet?
>>  
>> Marc has gotten inthe way by insisting that the charts for chargen for the
>> aliens be right and usable. That has delayed things.
>>  
>> Marc
>
>Marc, I love you, and I want to have your babies!
>______________________________________________________________________
>Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>
	A couple more offers like that and Aliens should hit the stores
	day after tomorrow.


	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:10:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

At 02:02 PM 10/27/97 GMT, you wrote:

>I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How much am
>I offered?
>
>Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
>money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)
 >I can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into
>converting the code...

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!!!!!!!

If you do it, James and I won't use you as an example in the At Close
Quarters....

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2018
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, October 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2019



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Essential Authors?
Idea
java GAL now web-enabled
SayBOOM is pleased to present...
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
TL of 6-G accel
SDB's in FFW
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Sci-Fi Authors
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Gas Giants
Re: "Pirate" ships
Re: Traveller Reading Material
Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram
IN, raiders, and intel (was: Econ data)
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
FF&S 2 Recoil...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:13:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

At 01:00 PM 10/27/97 GMT0, you wrote:

>I can't believe no-one mentioned Vernor Vinge's "A Fire upon the Beyond"

"A Fire Upon the Deep"   I loved this book, but didn't really find it
"Traveller".  I did steal the group mind aliens, though..

>The Larry Niven is passable now but when a lot of it was written (60/70s) it
>was refreshingly new. In fact I'm sure Marc would cite him as one of the
>Traveller sources.

I strongly recommend his recent books (Legacy of Heorot, Beowulf's
Children, and Destiny's Road) as source materials for designing low pop
worlds.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:28:53 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Idea

I just got back from a weekend away from T.O. and having played a great game
of History of the World, I thought to myself that a History of the Imperium
would be a great game. So I wanna do it (personal use only). What does theis
list think the seven major epochs of the Imperium/Charted Space be. And who
would be the six to seven empires in each epoch?

So Far
Rise of the Vilani-Vilani, Hivers, K'Kree, Vargr Diaspora
Interstellar Wars-Rule of Man, Second Imperium, Aslan
End of Empire-Vargr Raids, Terran Diaspora
Long Night-Pocket Empires
Imperium-Zhodani, Aslan, Solomani Rim War, Julian Wars
Rebellion-Each Faction

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:25:19 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: java GAL now web-enabled

Yo Folks,
     Java has fulfilled something of its promise. I was able to take the
java GAL application and slot it into a web page. You can view this at
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/weaver/GALApplet.html.
     Note: you must have a Java 1.1 enabled browser to view this. Internet
Explorer 4 is only partially Java 1.1 enabled, dispite what they say. It
doesn't work perfectly with it. But if you are a Microsoft User, you know
what to expect. I've tried it on a number of other platforms, so far
without a hitch. That's another promise of Java that's come true. Maybe
there's something to this language. Review the product, and you tell me.
     This page only has The Spinward Marches on it, since all the data has
to be local to the page. The application can display everything in the
dataset.
     All the WBH stuff has been ported to Java now, including surface
generation.
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:33:56 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: SayBOOM is pleased to present...

... the Sayat High-Risk Environment Perambulator (SHREP)!

Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Summary:
     0.30 displacement ton open-topped box, streamlined;  2.51 tonnes; kCr 260
Chassis:
     4.20 kL open-topped box streamlined (2.5 m long x 1.3 m wide x 1.3 m
high);  Structure: 50.4 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm
thick
     Armour: 4 front (2.5 cm), 4 sides (2.5 cm), 4 rear (2.5 cm), 0 top (1.0
     cm), 3 bottom (1.0 cm)
Performance:
     551 kW TL8 Turbine, MHD power plant;  Fuel: 440 L of high-grade hcarb (440
     kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 550 kW hoverskirt;  Maximum Speed: 198 km/h;
     Range: 1578 km;  Agility: +2DM
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station with ejection seats (1.0 cm of
     crystaliron armour, rating 9)
Armament:
     Weapon            Damage    Range      Recharge       Notes
     Laser, RF PD-12     3       Short        100     +5DM, remote
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec, DirAnt, DirFnd)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W, MilSpec)  Resolution: 1.0 mm per km of
     range
Other:
     Options: automatic sunroof, entertainment centre, wet bar
     Safety Features: anti-hijack system, anti-theft system, roadgrid, fire
     suppression system.
     78.2 L of cargo space (occupied by combat childcare computer system and
     extra sound insulation)

Description:
The crew station is actually designed for up to three early pre-citizens,
who have limited control over steering and performance of the SHREP.  While
remote control by adults is fully possible, preprogrammed travel
instructions and emergency management routines are handled by the powerful
onboard computer, which is also programmed with a wide range of lullabies
and educational road games.  Please note that robotic changing facilities
are not available in this model.  Basically TL B, but follows Sayat
technical abilities as per the "Contact: Sayat" article on _Freelance
Traveller_.The SHREP comes with a complimentary lambskin pram liner, three
stuffed animals, and a full tank of gas.

- -------
Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 14:42:00 EDT
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@ansyspo.ansys.com>
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

Hi All,

Has anyone read "The Game of Fox and Lion" by Peter 
Last-name-escapes-me-at-the-moment (Beagle maybe?).  I wouldn't call it 
great but it surpassed my expectations. I put it in the Sten category of 
science fiction.

Does anyone remember this book? Has the author written anything else?

Glenn

Woe is me for I turn 30 today. I am no longer elligible for the under 30 TML 
trivia.
Now I have to compete with the old guard.
______________________________________________________
Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (412) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (412) 514-3118
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:00:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: TL of 6-G accel

Hello,
>The speed of the ships is only limited by the grav comps...which is Traveller
>related also (I wonder how many people actually realize that 6-G combat
>vessels are purely TL 15 creations, since it's only then that G-comps handle
>6-Gs [per FF&S2] ).

  Well, FF&S2 is T4, so I guess the CT crowd have an advantage :)
What TL does MT require for combat 6-G/Agility 6 ops? I can't seem
to find a similar restriction. High Guard says TL 9, although the
power for Ag 6 is very expensive before TL 13+.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:00:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: SDB's in FFW

Hello,
>   The majority of worlds on the FFW map have no SDBs, and, from a 
>casual glance, a good startport or the presence of a Naval Base does 
>not increase the odds of the system having any (or for that matter, 
>neither does being a subsector capital help).  It looks like most 
>high-pop worlds have at least 50+ SDBs.  The highest totals on the 
>Imperial side are 1000 at Rhylanor, and 500 at each of Louzy and 
>Rethe.  Of those non-high-pop worlds that have SDBs, they normally 
>have around a dozen ships.

  So the guesses about deployment seem reasonable. It also coincides
with the belief that planets incapable of building their own SDB's
will not have SDB forces deployed (they might have police cutters
not intended to hunt warships, but I suspect that my Far Trader
smuggler might have an excellent chance against one or two of those).

  OTOH, even with GG and deep-space (if any) deployments a system
with a high SDB strength will still be able to patrol all choke-
points adequately, even if the worlds themselves somehow have no
other defenses (!).

  Thanks for the data.
        
        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:52:15 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 12:51 PM 10/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:08 PM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Douglas, are you an author as well?  your name sounds familiar.
>
>My ego forces me to assume he meant me.
>
>Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
>(usually being chased by villages waving torches)
>--
>
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
>|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
>|------------------------------------------|
>| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
>| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
>| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
>| for the money."               -- Moliere |
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>
	Of course, you mean 'villagers,' although the words, as written, carry
	their own charm.


	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:59:19 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Authors

At 12:57 AM 10/25/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Heinlein was great until I read "Number of the Beast" and now
>> I refuse to read him because anyone who can write a book so 
>> tedious, silly, pointless, inane and character driven should
>> be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
>
>Do give him another chance. Even if you didn't like that one, I suspect
>you'd enjoy "Friday", "Job: A Comedy of Justice", and the collections
>that were issued after that point. It's also a good idea to pick up the
>re-issues of "Red Planet", "The Puppet Masters" and "Stranger in a
>Strange Land" as all have changes from the older editions. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
	Over the past few years, I have reread most of my old Heinlein books.
	Some of those that I had loved the most as a youth, had lost some of
	their charm; two that had retained all of the special qualities that
	originally endeared them to me were, surprisingly, unmentioned on the
	various lists of Heinlein's works: "The Door Into Summer" and
	"Doublestar." As I age, I find more in these than I saw as a child --
	it's like reading Austen or Forrester[sp?].


	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 20:15 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In-Reply-To: <971027010311_1500699050@emout02.mail.aol.com>

>  > I do like Honor Harrington. Of course, I also like the Hornblower books.
>  
>  ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
>  about to do the same with Hornblower.
>  ______________________________________ >>
> Captain Horatio Hornblower was already made into a movie...in the 1950's I
> believe.  Starred Gregory Peck and Virginia Mayo. Was a reasonably good
> action flick.

Yeah, I've seen it. I was talking about a TV series.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:37:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Gas Giants

>From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: RE: Piracy exists because...
>
>On Friday, October 24, 1997 7:46 PM, Steven Hudson 
>[SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca] wrote:
....
>>   This presumes that GG's are not somewhat out of the way; they also 
>happen
>> to be where many if not most battles expect to be fought.
>
>I assume that GGs are the primary line of defense mostly due to the fact 
>that a invading fleet will want to fight with full fuel tanks, so that they 
>can disengage if necessary.  It might be somewhat awkward to request 
>refueling from the Starport before the battle...  :)

Hello,
  We both appear to pointing out that GG's will be battle, training,
and possibly peacetime deployment sites for non-SDB units. The post
I was responding to seems to be the one we're both disagreeing with.

  BTW, what other possible peacetime deployments would seem likely
for active service CruRons and BatRons?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:37:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "Pirate" ships

>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" 
>At 21:36 1997-10-24 -0700, you wrote:
>>  Is it reasonable to assume that a Far Trader with excellent
>>armaments can classify as a standard "independent" pirate? It
>>is common, can make money legitimately, can J-2, has enough
>>cargo to loot a hold, swallow a ship's boat, or get another
>>couple parsecs on collapsible tanks.
>
>The ship would probably need to be modified (perhaps adding some armour to
>it). Is it at all possible to modify an existing ship without having to
>dismantle the whole ship? If it is not possible, the ship would have to be
>customized. It would be a good point to make the ship look like a normal
>free trader on the outside, since this would attract less suspicious eyes
>from the government.

Hello, 
  I'm still thinking in terms of a well-equipped merchant looking
for targets of opportunity - you've got forever to look, as you're
making a profit on regular operations, and taking a heavy risk for
one big score (the target _ship_ at MCr 15-50, ideally) is worth it
if you're so inclined.

  OTOH, a ship too specialized to make money may very well end up
toasted because you jumped a bad target because payroll was overdue.
The authorities, whether they encounter you casually or whether they
are being proactive, may very well notice that you may not be able to
make money honestly. Also, if you've got much more than MCr 10-15 to
invest, why not just build a world-based criminal organization. You
can always pirate vicariously by specializing in providing services
to hijackers, smugglers, pirates, and shipping fraud artists.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:29:07 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reading Material

At 04:55 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I just wanted to add to the whole Sci-Fi Novel thread by adding one of my 
>personal faves.
>
>Anyone out there read "High Crusade" (author escapes me at the moment)
>
	Poul Anderson.
>
>If not....Consider this a
>
>SPOILER ALERT***********************
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>SPOLIER ALERT**********************
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>>YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED<
>
>
>Basically this alien ship lands on earth during the middle ages.  Right in 
>the middle of an English town preparing for war with France.  The ship opens 
>and a blue "daemon" appears and fires a laser at an archer.  Bad move.  The 
>rest of the Archers fire all on the one "daemon" killing it.  Now that they 
>know that the daemons" can be killed the English army storms the ship and 
>takes it over.  From there the Baron loads the entire barony on board in an 
>attempt to raid France, but the one 'Daemon" (later called a Wesgorix) sets 
>the navcontrols to an outpost of his own empire, leaving the primitive 
>humans lost in space.  This is just the beginning of the adventure!
>
>I read this when I was playing TNE and thought of what would happen if a 
>Merchant ship did the wrong thing on a TL-0/1 world.  Also I thought of what 
>would have happened to Vilani Traders who came to Earth back in the 12th 
>century! :-)
>
>What really stood in my mind was when the Mideavals discovered the power of 
>tactical nukes thrown from a Trebuchet!  Now that's SCARY!

	"It were better than any dead horse, milord."
>
>Reminds me of some Trav games in where primitives were picked up and became 
>part of the crew.  A Barbarian with a big sword from a high grav world as 
>security officer is quite a sight!
>
>"I am AH-nold, you Vill not enter this ship!"
>
>Anyway, read High Crusade.  Very amusing tale.
>
> ---------------------------------
>\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
>T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
>//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org
>


	Tim Connors

	All probabilities are 50%
		either a thing will happen or it won't.
	
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

	. . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:56:05 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: More CSC Abuse: Tl-7 Pram

Kenji wrote:

>
>Roderick wrote:
>
>>        Please note that I did not go over the top and put in a twin
>>.50-cal mount, outsize T-plates, or anything eqully insane.  This is IMHO
>
>And why _not_, sir?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  We are not amused.  Though TravMoms is
>surely pleased with this bout of sanity.  And I must point out -- it isn't
>quite large enough to accomodate Leroy.


	Well, Leroy would fit just fine into this.  It's accomodating his
ego that'd pose the problem.  CSC seems to have an upper limit of 400 td.


>
>I think the time has come for me to get CSC and permit the Sayat Bureau for
>the Operationalization of Ordinances and Munitions (SayBOOM) to begin
>production of _their_ conception of a modern battlefield perambulator.
>There is absolutely no reason why pre-citizens who are not yet
>independently mobile should be denied the right to participate in
>safeguarding civilization from Lurking Alien Evil.  Indeed not.

	Right, right, I got the point.  Watch this space.

	SayBOOM :)?


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:37:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IN, raiders, and intel (was: Econ data)

>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:14:00 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economic Data (long)
....
>[Stuff about what the Imperium could afford to do...]
>
>I've tried to make this point before.  Yes, huge organizations
>have huge resources.  Does this mean they do things that modest
>organizations wouldn't do because they don't bother with the cost?
>_No_.  If anything they watch their expenses in a way that may
>be even more detailed.  Why?  That is because those organizations
>with mind boggling resources have a mind boggling huge number of
>things that it could do competing for those resources.  The
>Imperium is not going to spend money to stop piracy because
>it doesn't care about the money and if the cost to completely
>eliminate piracy exceeds the losses involved, then you have a
>situation where such an effort is dubious, regardless of whether
>we are talking about  10% if the Imperium's budget or 0.00001%
>of the budget.

Hello,
  There still remains the issue (even if piracy will not be combated
using dual-purpose assets in place) of the military security of the
3I. Asides from the case that it appears unconcerned with the lack
of legitimacy flowing from its unwillingness or inability to police
within its borders, or the weakening of its economic strength as
resources are destroyed or redirected to unacceptable ends, I doubt
anyone will argue that they are very concerned with the physical
security of their external borders.

  However, enemy intelligence operations (such as squadron deployments,
basing, SDB/PD strengths) can easily penetrate the border, and would
then under these assumptions be able to function easily as pirates or
merchants using forged papers. Internal and external security functions
seem inextricably linked, just as they are in the modern world. Further,
small commerce raiders could be easily pre-placed along with their
supplies and their target familiarization runs under this regime.

  If the 3I is incapable of providing necessary security, why does it
still exist, or why did it ever? I suspect that a non-zero level of
piracy exists at an equilibrium acceptable to the Imperium, but that
full-time pirates would suffer an attrition rate too high for their
returns or for their cover function for intel ops to be desirable.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:03:36 -0500 (EST)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

In a message dated 97-10-27 08:08:29 EST, you write:

<< AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 CTCCGACGACCAGCACCGATGGCACTCGAACGAGCACACCGACTGCGT
 CTAGCAAGGCCTATCGCAATCATGATTCAGCCTCAGCTCATGCCCGAG
 GCACCTATGATGATCCTAGCACTCGCAGCAAGTATGGCAGAACGACGT
 CCAATGATCGCACAGCCTCTCCGAGCACCGGAGGCACCTATGGACCTC
 GCAAGGATCCTTATGCCTCTCCTGCGTATGGCCATACACATGATGCGT
 CTAGCACTCCAGCCGCGACTCCACGAGGCAAAGACTGCCAACAAAGCA
 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >>

This is an RNA sequence the poly adenylated tail is a dead give away!!!!!!!!

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:38:57 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: FF&S 2 Recoil...

	In a sudden bout of insanity, I decided to take a closer look at
the FF&S2 gun designs I've done in order to get a grip on the recoil
numbers for pistols.  My findings do seem to match Wildstar's.  Recoil on
light pistols should be under 2, recoil starts getting heavy around 3, 4 is
unusual, and 5+ would likely be really brutal.  Weight relative to muzzle
energy seems to be the most determining factor, although gyrostabilization
and muzzle brakes make a big difference too.  Designs follow.

	What would be really useful is if somebody did a bunch of rifle
designs modelling current firearms, so that we could get a handle on how
much recoil is too much for long arms.


1) TL-12 7.5 mm pistol:  This one was done using TL-12 advanced materials;
the weight is relatively low, which explains why the recoil is relatively
high in comparison to the muzzle energy and hence damage.  This is
comparable to a normal, non-psychotic handgun such as a .45 or a 9mm;
recoil is right where Wildstar's ratings would put it.


Length:			24.5 cm
Bulk:			2
Mass (empty):		1.16 kg
Mass (loaded):		1.33 kg
Price (no mag):		1612 cr
Actual Muzzle Energy:	450 joules
Basic Range:		9.76 m (Very Short)
Damage:			2 slug, 3 (3.18) HE/HEAP
Recoil:			Single shot: 2.27, B.-of-3: 3.41

Feed: Grip mag, 25 rounds (sticks out a bit)



2)  Another TL-12 7.5 mm pistol; however, the recoil is much more
manageable on this one despite the higher muzzle energy; the muzzle brake
and extra weight from the accessories really help.

Length:				28.75 cm
Bulk:				2
Mass (empty):			2.19 kg
Mass (loaded):			2.39 kg
Price (no mag):			823 cr
Basic Range:			10 m (Short)
Actual ME: 			737.6 joules
Damage:				2 (2.58) slug, 3 (3.57) HE/HEAP
Recoil:				Single shot: 1.39, B.-of-3: 2.09

Reciever: SA, Burst-of-5, hollow pistol grip, optic sight, laser pointer
Barrel: TL-12 light rifled, 12 cm, short muzzle brake (recoil mod: .75)
Feed: Grip mag, 25 rounds (sticks out a bit)


3) TL-12 8mm pistol: the aim here was a light, cheap, compact, Saturday
Night Special sort of weapon.  Note the recoil!


Length:				23.1 cm
Bulk:				1
Mass (empty):			0.513 kg
Mass (loaded):			0.613 kg
Price (no mag):			138.75 cr
Basic Range:			8.2 m (Very Short)
Actual ME: 			285.27 joules
Damage:				1 (1.61) slug, 3 (3.033) HE/HEAP
Recoil:				Single shot: 4.69, B.-of-3: 7.04

Feed: Grip mag, 17 rounds


4) .44 magnum hand cannon: this is one of the Marathon weapons I posted a
while ago.  Price is due to use of TL-8 advanced materials (and eve so it's
still real heavy).  Note that although muzzle energy is six and a half
times higher than the previous design, recoil is actually lower.  Weight
helps.


Weapon length: 			37 cm
Bulk: 				2
Mass: 				loaded 2.894 Kg, empty 2.578 Kg
Price: 				3,364 Cr.
Basic Range:			19.35 m (Short Range in T4 range bands)
Actual Muzzle Energy:		1,850
Damage: 			4 (actually 4.09) HE/HEAP: 5.54
Recoil:				3.06


5) My most-optimised take on a TL-9 .47 automag.  I did this for Ross's
current campaign.  Compare with the previous design.

Weapon length:			28.1 cm
Bulk: 				2
Mass: 				loaded 2.21 Kg, empty 1.6 Kg
Price: 				1416 Cr.
Cartridge: 			11.75X32.2 mm straight cased
Barrel length: 			9.8 cm
Actual Muzzle Energy: 		1,350 joules
Reciever:			TL-9 light semi-auto, TL-8 advanced materials,
		 		hollow pistol grip, optic sight
Basic Range: 			16.9 m (Short Range).
Damage: 			3 (3.499), 4 (4.06) HE/HEAP
Recoil: 			3.319

Magazine (12-round grip): Mass: 189.4 g empty, 615.52 g full.Price: 1.9 Cr
empty, 18.94 Cr full



6) TL-12 12mm heavy pistol: continuing towards the high end of the scale.
Note how the use of TL-12 advanced materials affects both price and recoil.


Length:				31 cm
Bulk:				2
Mass (empty):			1.43 kg
Mass (loaded):			1.62 kg
Price (no mag):			2066 cr
Basic Range:			20.3 m (Short)
Actual ME: 			1721.7 joules
Damage:				4 (3.95) slug, 5 (5.26) HE/HEAP
Recoil:				Single shot: 3.84, B.-of-3: 5.76
Feed: 				Grip mag, 11 rounds



7) TL-14 10mm gauss pistol: Very light relative to its damage.  The three
settings (Kill, Really Kill, and Overkill) display nicely the way recoil
climbs really quickly with a light weapon, even with the use of a
gyroscopic recoil compensator.  I suspect that burst-of-five at Really
Kill, and all burst settings at Overkill would be factory disabled.


Length:				26.4 cm
Mass (empty):			14-round mag: 1.97 kg; 21-round mag: 2.07 kg
Mass (loaded):			14-round mag: 2.08 kg, 21-round mag: 2.24 kg
Price (no mag):			997.89 cr
Basic Range (supersonic):	23.34 m (Short)
Basic Range (medium):		17.29 m (Very Short)
Basic Range (subsonic):		11.38 m (Very Short)
ME (supersonic):		1788 joules
ME (medium):			981.25 joules
ME (subsonic):			424.85 joules
Damage (supersonic):		4 (4.02) dart, 5 (5.64) HE/HEAP
Damage (medium):		3 (2.98) dart, 5 (4.96)HE/HEAP
Damage (subsonic):		2 (1.96) dart, 4 (4.42) HE/HEAP
Recoil (supersonic):		Single shot: 3.44, B.-of-3: 5.16, B.-of-5: 8.6
Recoil (medium):		Single shot: 2.77, B.-of-3: 4.15, B.-of-5: 6.9
Recoil (subsonic):		Single shot: 2.11, B.-of-3: 3.17, B.-of-5:
5.275

SA, Burst-of-3, Burst-of-5, hollow pistol grip, optic sight, laser sight,
TL-10 gyroscopic recoil compensator.



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2019
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, October 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2020



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Piracy - the new era :)
Where is Piracy Safe?
Re: FF&S2 and Emperor's Vehicles question
Money
Bolos and Weber
Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?
Re: CSC Porting
Re: Gas Giants
Re: CSC Porting
Re: TL of 6-G accel
FF&S2: TL-7 .22 bolt action rifle
Re: Money
Re: Idea
Re: Science Fiction Authors
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Economic Data (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Piracy - the new era :)

OK.  We've polarized the list into the pro- and anti- piracy camps (oh,
and 'anti-piracy thread' camp ;), and really haven't done anything
except stir the waters and develop a number of very cool off-shoots.

As Hans pointed out earlier, we have the following situation:

A: Piracy is canon, it is mentioned throughout the life of Traveller; it
is represented in both the encounter tables and the chargen tables

B: Naval and Industrial Capacity would seem to support the idea that
Piracy can be stamped out.

As Hans pointed out, A can exist, B can exist, but A and B cannot
exist.  (Am I getting this correct?)

So...

Instead of arguing from the outside in (ie why one exists rather than
the other), let's shift.  Let's argue from the inside out!

I _think_ we are all in agreement that having pirates in the game adds
flavor and some excitement.  Having PCs that have that in their
background gives the GM a fair amount of history to draw on.  So, rather
than developing a either/or situation (which really doesn't help anyone,
even if it is fun to debate) let's concentrate on developing the
rationale where such a situation _could_ occur (which _would_ help the
GMs at large, since we have to turn around and explain to our players
why we just blew their ship to MC^2 with a pirate that shouldn't be
there!)  Perhaps one of the several authors that frequent the list will
be able to produce something constructive that we can then point to as
'canon' when this debate (inevitably) resurfaces in the future!  :)

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:10:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Where is Piracy Safe?

Hello,
  With regards to the piracy thing, let's work through where in
a i) high pop system, you'd be safe to rip-off starships.

  For convenience sake, this is a stellar tech culture in a system
effectively identical to ours, with a few billion+ sapient critters.

  Say there's a few colonial BatRons and CruRons (some of the latter
are elsewhere), lots of little warships, and the happy little animals
of the SDB/COACC arm. All the heavy iron is parked around the main
world except for a few cruisers around the GG's and Mars. Reasonable?

  Let's assume that a manned merchant starship can and will be able
to cry for (distant, likely) help using his maser, and that traffic
control will get on your case big time if your transponder (not an
Imperial series, just a repeater for ID/location, etc.) isn't up.
You also get fined if they catch you throwing pig iron ingots or the
like out of the cargo hatch...  ...right?

  Masses inside the orbit of Terra are a non-starter. A vessel can't
jump safely from inside Sol's 100-D zone (correct?), and waiting to
get out will entail a very likely risk of meeting something big and
furry. Economically, it's also debatable that a J-merchant would
even be down there in a fully developed system. The risks seem too
high for anyone not truly desperate (hmm, that leaves some potential).

  Terra. Jump limit is ~1.2 million km? Four L-S? Forget traffic control
corridors, if anyone screams "Pirate", you're dead if you twitch wrong.
Forget inbound, that's simply crazy. Outbound, matching courses, you're
stationary. Something from orbit will vapourize you in seconds, and all
you have to do is prepare to jump or maneuver without permission. OK,
you might last a few minutes, but you're not playing around with cargo
boxes in that time. Now, hijacking seems a different kettle of fish,
but that's a whole different thread.

  Mars. See above, to a large extent. If you cripple another outbound
ship and match trajectories 3 L-S from a 20 KDt cruiser, you're still
dead. Remember, a stationary target may as well be 3 km from the guns.

  The Gas Giants. Well, the System Navy probably has some big guns
passing the time here, at least at Jupiter/Saturn, as they protect
the entire cluster of facilities and habitations there. They also
probably have a bad case of SDB's, but it's hardly relevant.

  The outer GG's. Well, they'll have a picket system of some sort
for security. Probably SDB's. Why anyone else would be there sort
of escapes me.

  Pluto? Why? You can probably rig an armed picket system up for
a reasonable bill after the first time someone does get pirated
there.

  The Asteroid belt. This is virtually indefensible. One defense,
however, is not to use (Jump) ships. Ore? Kick it downhill to a
smelter where energy is cheap, and save the bulk handling. Gotta
ship something? Manned or not, if it isn't jumping, why waste the
interest costs on the J-drive, and the lost cargo space? But if
I own an armed rustbucket and no social conscience, I might sit
and try/pretend to prospect until a nice fat one came along and
then take it, and decide what to do with the proceeds long before
anyone else can do anything about it. OC, this is where "an armed
society is a polite society" applies - if the armed merchant zaps
my j-drive, I have a couple days to come up with some really poor
excuses before that patrol cruiser arrives.

  In all seriousness, any defended point is almost impossible to
safely touch in such a system, unless you're a dedicated cruiser
class commerce raider, which is clearly outside of the case.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:26:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 and Emperor's Vehicles question

LrdRhys01@aol.com (name unknown) asked:
> The HEAP warhead penetration value derived from the method listed on page
> 41 of FFS2 (Multiply the bore size (in centimeters) by the penetration
> modifier in Table 79.) seems to be much too large. A 4cm (40mm) HEAP warhead
> at TL9+ has a penetration value of 68.4, which is way beyond the values you
> get for any other type of weapon.

Well, let's see: a 4cm cannon projectile would have a nominal energy of
0.15Mj, and we'll punch in the figures at TL-10..  With the various warheads
available, that works out to:

HE: Pen 8
HEAP: Pen 68
KEAP: Pen 77

A CPR (chemically-propelled round) gun or a mass driver gun would have these
same characteristics (assuming that both weapons had a 0.15MJ muzzle energy.

A plasma or fusion gun with the same pulse energy would have a damage of 15.
A laser with a 0.15MJ discharge energy would have a damage of 19.
I'm not sure if the calculation for a particle beam is correct (damage 2;
IMHO it should be around damage 39 - about twice that of a laser with the
same discharge energy).

The plasma/fusion gun is most comparable to the slugthrower using general
purpose (GP, also known as HE) ammunition.  As you can see, the high energy
weapon gets better penetration.  There is no plasma/fusion equivalent of a
HEAP or KEAP round.

The primary advantages of lasers and particle weapons isn't that they do
more damage at a given energy level, but that they can reach areas that a
slugthrower can't.  Both lasers and particle beams are speed-of-light
weapons with ranges extending to the millions of kilometers.  Both can be
scaled up to relatively high energies.  Slugthrowers increase energy by
increasing the bore size, which slows the rate of fire, and increases the
size of the ammunition.  The maximum energy that can be handled by any
slughthrower is on the order of 500MJ, and high-energy slugthrowers are much
larger and heavier than high-energy laser and particle weapons (for example,
a 150MJ laser can be mounted on a space fighter, while a 150MJ slughthrower
is a 12" naval cannon).

By TL-10, lasers are capable of 500MJ, and the maximum energy increases with
each TL.  The discharge energy of particle weapons is limited only by the
length of the installation.  Lasers have a higher rate of fire than particle
beams, but for both weapons, the rate of fire doesn't decrease as the energy
is increased.

However, at all but the highest TLs, the most efficient way to kill someone
(particularly someone nearby) is to use a slugthrower of some type.

> What is the correct formula or conversion for T4? 

I believe the warhead figures are substantially correct for T4.

> The AFV's and Personnel Carriers shown in Emperor's Vehicles appear to
> have way too much armor. Some of the heavier AFV's seem to be completely
> invulnerable to the most powerful weapons in Emperor's Arsenal.

You can't use the vehicles in EV with the weapons in EA.  The weapons in EA
were designed using Greg Porter's armor/damage scheme, where armor value is
proportional to the cube root of thickness.  I don't know the provenance of
all of the designs in EV, but I suspect that they are all 'FF&S2 compatible'
though I doubt that they were actually designed in FF&S2.

This all goes back to an original decision made in T4, which was to have
different rating schemes for spacecraft, and non-spacecraft combat systems.
When extending the basic T4 armor and damage values to encompass everything
in the Traveller universe, Greg Porter and I chose different techniques to
perform the analysis (I chose a linear model, and Greg chose a cubic model).

Greg's system produces slightly better results at the low end of the scale,
where most of the stuff in CSC and EA (and most of the PCs equipment) are
located. The exponent in Greg's scale lumps most of the high end into a
pretty indistinguished clump at the high end of the scale.  The linear model
I used is (IMHO) a better overall compromise.

> So what's the fix for this? Right now I'm using the listed value for the
> frontal arc only (which is still too high), with 2/3 of value for the
> sides, and 1/2 for belly and deck.

I believe that a conversion chart was posted to the TML a while back, that
will allow you to rate the vehicle armor under the EA system (or
alternatively, rate the weapons using the FF&S2 damage system).


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:45:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Ringrose <ringrose@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Money

In general, planets in traveller use credits.

If you're going to (or coming from) a place which doesn't use credits, and
doesn't have a set up method of exchanging between their currency and credits,
you need to transform your wealth into something portable.

So, what form does portable wealth take in Traveller?  Most of the things we
consider "valuable" now can be manufactured, or mined off astroids, in another
couple tech levels.

If you're on a high-tech world, of course, the tech itself is valuable.  But
what if you're going the other direction?

	- Robert

I'm not looking for the pat answer of "whatever they don't have".  I'm looking
for a concrete "this, that, and these are things which are still hard to get at
these tech levels."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:46:50 -0500
From: Martin Laurie <MLaurie@compuserve.com>
Subject: Bolos and Weber

Given the info in the Bolo's in the various books:

Complete Bolo
Bolo Books 1-4 =

and Bolo Brigade

It seems unlikely that a Bolo can be simulated at the traveller level.

The most powerful Bolos (my favourite being the planetary seige bolo,
so called because of you dropped it on a planet it can beseige the
ENTIRE planet) can fly their huge bulk, travel at 200km per hour
on the ground shoot up to 4 Hellbores with a firepower _per second_
 of many megatons of plasma into orbit as well as a whole host of lesser
weapons, including ICBMs and infinite repeaters with enough =

firepower to blast an overturned bolo back onto its tracks!!!!

Whoever said the AI is amazing was spot on, so strategically capable
as to immediately ascertain then enemies pattern and so rapid in =

calculation that it can immediately weigh up the correct place to fire
to cause maximum disruption.  =


Maybe the ancients built them for a laugh but the specs are beyond
traveller IMO.

As for David Webers universes, I love em, the Dahak series and the
Honor Harrington series but in Armageddon Inheritance the Annchultani
had a main fleet of 3 MILLION ships all around 30-100 KM long!!!!

The Imperium in the stories had around 500,000 planetoids all as big or =

bigger than the earths moon and all capable of blasting earth to pieces i=
n
nanoseconds!  Now thats what I call a big fleet!

At least Honor Harringtons universe has super dreadnoughts of only
8 million tons!  =


Basically neither universe fits the current traveller systems at all well=
,
which is a shame cos they are Gloriously entertaining.

Martin Laurie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:13:30 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Why did the Aslan shred the ship's crew...?

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>
>In mail you write:
>
>>         Visualize this little scene we came up wit a few months back:
>>
>> Captain [pleading]: But we need a steward!
>>
>> Aslan [wearing little French Maid's outfit, with tray of drinks]:  I tell
>> you, I will wear your warrior's costume, BUT I WILL NOT SERVE DRINKS!
>
>I don't think I'd want to be in the same *star system* when he finds
>out the history of that "uniform". Hell, he'd be able to get his entire
>*clan* to go after you!


	Absolutely.  But the slow disembowellment would likely be worth it :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:15:32 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

Doug Berry wrote:

>At 02:02 PM 10/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How much am
>>I offered?
>>
>>Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
>>money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)
> >I can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into
>>converting the code...
>
>PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!!!!!!!
>
>If you do it, James and I won't use you as an example in the At Close
>Quarters....



	Hey Doug, Can I be an example in ACQ?   Of something really
atrocious?  And come to a really horrible, sticky, and unpleasant end,
preferably all over the ceiling?

:)

	Seriously, though, if Rob were to port CSC to the PC, this list
would turn into the biggest used hypothetical science fictional vehicle lot
in Cyberspace for about a month.  IMHO, that'd be brutally cool.  However,
what'd be even more fun would be an automated FF&S2...


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:07:52 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Gas Giants

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> >Subject: RE: Piracy exists because...
> >
> >On Friday, October 24, 1997 7:46 PM, Steven Hudson
> >[SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca] wrote:
> ...
> >>   This presumes that GG's are not somewhat out of the way; they also
> >happen
> >> to be where many if not most battles expect to be fought.
> >
> >I assume that GGs are the primary line of defense mostly due to the fact
> >that a invading fleet will want to fight with full fuel tanks, so that they
> >can disengage if necessary.  It might be somewhat awkward to request
> >refueling from the Starport before the battle...  :)
>
> Hello,
>   We both appear to pointing out that GG's will be battle, training,
> and possibly peacetime deployment sites for non-SDB units. The post
> I was responding to seems to be the one we're both disagreeing with.
>
>   BTW, what other possible peacetime deployments would seem likely
> for active service CruRons and BatRons?
>
>         Yours truly,
>                 Steven Hudson

 Well, I have the heretical view that the Imperium is not a particularly
welcome government (much like the Terran Imperium in the 'Flandry' series).
The CruRons and BatRons drop in on the various worlds for 'liberty' and to
remind them who has the biggest stick...  (There is nothing quite like the
expression of the SysDef admiral watching Tigress BatRon launch it's liberty
ships - in the same assault shuttles that would be used to drop the Marines if
it came to it...  ;)

The primary mission of the Navy is to keep the peace, and maintain the Empire.
No matter how many people they have to kill to do it.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:21:45 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

>I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How much
am
>I offered?
>
>Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
>money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)
I
>can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into
converting
>the code...

Rob,

Put a price on it! If it's reasonable I'll gladly pay! I'm tired of Heggie
having all the fun!
(he rubs hands together and cackles with malicious glee)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:44:52 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: TL of 6-G accel

>The speed of the ships is only limited by the grav comps...which is=
 Traveller
>related also (I wonder how many people actually realize that 6-G combat
>vessels are purely TL 15 creations, since it's only then that G-comps=
 handle
>6-Gs [per FF&S2] ).

But you do not need to compensate the whole 6 G !

At TL15, the crew could build card houses at maximum acceleration, because
the grav. compensators remove the effects of the 6 G acceleration within the
ship.

A fighter ship does not need to compensate it's entire acceleration. While
riding a rollercoaster you are sometimes affected by up to 2 G of
acceleration. A TL12 fighter pilot accelerating at 6 G would feel 3 G
acceleration, which is acceptable.

No one would be able to stand up inside passenger compartments and such, but=
 ...

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:52:39 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: FF&S2: TL-7 .22 bolt action rifle

	As part of my ongoing fixation with FF&S2 recoil (anything rather
than study!), I did up a .22 single-shot bolt action rifle.  Mass and price
seem a little high, and the cartidge came out overlength.  Damage seems a
little high, too.  However, it's way useful as a baseline of sorts for the
recoil number: its recoil is 1.06...

	I may do a heavier rifle (probably a Lee-Enfield .303) this evening


TL-7 .22 rifle

Evaluation:

Length:			92.5 cm
Bulk:			6.16
Mass (empty):		2.62 kg
Price:			411 cr
Basic Range:		56.85 m (Medium)
Actual ME:		350 joules
Damage:			1.78
Recoil:			1.06

Cal: 			5.17 mm (17)
Rated Muzzle Energy:	200 joules
Base area:		25.517 mm^2
Propellant volume:	200 mm^3
Bullet length:		5.17 mm
Case length:		19.59 mm
Round length:		24.76 mm
Mass:			6.32 grams
Ideal Barrel Length:	7.483 cm
Price:			0.13 cr (mass produced)

Barrel: 50 cm light rifled (NB: this is well over 250% of the IBL.
However, it seems more realistic to me.  I will, however, use only the 250%
ModBLen):

ModBLen:		1.5
Mass:			1 kg
Price:			200 cr
Actual Muzzle Energy:	350 joules

Reciever: light TL-4 bolt action, wooden stock

Length:			42.5 cm
Mass:			1.62 kg
Price:			211 cr


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:51:45 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Money

>If you're going to (or coming from) a place which doesn't use credits, and
>doesn't have a set up method of exchanging between their currency and=
 credits,
>you need to transform your wealth into something portable.
>
>So, what form does portable wealth take in Traveller?  Most of the things=
 we
>consider "valuable" now can be manufactured, or mined off astroids, in=
 another
>couple tech levels.
>
>If you're on a high-tech world, of course, the tech itself is valuable. =
 But
>what if you're going the other direction?

The tech is still valuable, even more so on low-tech worlds. Imagine what
TL12 luxury items could buy you on a TL7 world for example. If you are going
to a world of even lower tech level, like 0 or 1, a few cigarette lighters
can do wonders, while costing you virtually nothing.

I have another question concerning money in Traveller:

Some items exist in different versions on different tech levels. These items
include ship's guns, weapons etc.

If someone wants to purchase an outdated item, how much would it cost ? The
price would no doubt be reduced, but how much ?

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:50:43 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Idea

Glenn Crawford wrote:

>I just got back from a weekend away from T.O. and having played a great game
>of History of the World, I thought to myself that a History of the Imperium
>would be a great game. So I wanna do it (personal use only). What does theis
>list think the seven major epochs of the Imperium/Charted Space be. And who
>would be the six to seven empires in each epoch?
>
>So Far
>Rise of the Vilani-Vilani, Hivers, K'Kree, Vargr Diaspora
>Interstellar Wars-Rule of Man, Second Imperium, Aslan
>End of Empire-Vargr Raids, Terran Diaspora
>Long Night-Pocket Empires
>Imperium-Zhodani, Aslan, Solomani Rim War, Julian Wars
>Rebellion-Each Faction

The Ancients - Ancients, pre-Grandfather; Ancients, age of Grandfather;
          The Apex of Grandfather's empire; The Final War; Droyne and
          Chirpers in the aftermath of the Final War; Grandfather's
          Pocket Universe.

New Era - The Regency, The Reformation Coalition, The Hive Federation,
          The Black Curtain, the (power behind the) Empress Wave, the
          pocket empires, The Terran Republic

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:15:24 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Authors

Hello,
  In addition to Cordwainer Smith, another pseudonymous classic
author not yet mentioned (AFAIK) is "James Tiptree". Mostly shorts,
IIRC, but apparently responsible for a number of good novels.

  For the more modern treatments the works of Robert Frezza
bear some resemblance to a Travelleresque universe.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:41:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

At 01:52 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:51 PM 10/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 08:08 PM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Douglas, are you an author as well?  your name sounds familiar.
>>
>>My ego forces me to assume he meant me.
>>
>>Not yet, but I have done some work for Traveller, and I'm all over UseNet
>>(usually being chased by villages waving torches)

>	Of course, you mean 'villagers,' although the words, as written, carry
>	their own charm.

You've never seen me at work in alt.christnet.hypocrisy.  I said
"villages", and I meant entire villages.

It's not for nothing that I'm one of rec.games.frp.misc's Great Old Ones
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:50:14 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

On the whole Hornblower thing...

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned David Feintuch's "Hope" series.
Set in a very repressive future, it follows the amazing career of a single
Navy officer in a star navy very reminiscent of the Hornblower saga.  Nick
Seafort starts as a Midshipman who has to take command when all the
commissioned officers are killed.  He is a tormented soul, pursued by the
demons of his strict upbringing and holding himself to an impossible standard.

The first book is "Midshipman's Hope", and is highly recommended for the
Age of Sail fans among us.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:59:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economic Data (long)

>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:04:46 -0800
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>

>>I've tried to make this point before.  Yes, huge organizations
>>have huge resources.  Does this mean they do things that modest
>>organizations wouldn't do because they don't bother with the cost?
>>_No_.  If anything they watch their expenses in a way that may
>>be even more detailed.  Why?  That is because those organizations
>>with mind boggling resources have a mind boggling huge number of
>>things that it could do competing for those resources.

>True.  On the other hand, while they have a lot of things they could do, it
>is very important to know if they could possibly do prevent piracy, were
>they willing.  If they can't, then the debate is over.  For example, if
>ships travelled in real space between stars, it would be very difficult to
>police that much area, even if they wanted to more than anything.
>
>I do not think there is much disagreement that they could, *** if they
>wanted to ***, put enough SDBs in orbit around one gas giant and one planet
>per system to make snaking in, piracy, and other good things impossible.
>Your thesis is that there would be enough they would want to do with those
>resources that they would not.

OK.  I agree that,  if the Imperium was willing to pull out
all the stops and pay any price, they could relegate
piracy to a crime that occurs rarely and under special
circumstances.  My point has been that it is not clear
the they would find that price worth while (I am personally
am dubious they would).

>>  The
>>Imperium is not going to spend money to stop piracy because
>>it doesn't care about the money and if the cost to completely
>>eliminate piracy exceeds the losses involved, then you have a
>>situation where such an effort is dubious, regardless of whether
>>we are talking about  10% if the Imperium's budget or 0.00001%
>>of the budget.
>
>And I have tried to make these points before:
>
>The ships that might be lost cost a hell of a lot.

In which case the pirates might find taking just the cargo
a better bet because they don't worry about having to
move a damaged or sabatoged ship and, more importantly,
they don't have to deal with the heat that such a heavy
loss would call down on them.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2020
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2021



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Nobility and Government
Current THUDD and G-Comp Stacking
FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: FF&S2 and Emperor's Vehicles question
FF&S2: TL-7 Weatherby Magnum 
Re: Money
FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Piracy - the new era :)
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: CSC Porting
Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Plante III Software on FTP?
Weber's Universe
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:03:10 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Imperial Nobility and Government

Knight/Dame
Baron/Baroness
Duke/Duchess
Arch-Duke/Arch-Duchess
Emperor/Emperess

(Note: for clarity, I will only be using the male form of address for the rest
of this post.  This is for convienence only, not to imply any disregard for the
achievements of the female gender...  ;)

What do these people provide?  What exactly does the Imperium do, except provide
a military force?

This is kind of how I see it...

Emperor (the whole shebang)
        I
        I
ArchDuke (Administers a Sector or Domain)
        I
        I
Duke (Administers one or more Subsectors)
        I
        I
Baron (Administers a Cluster, System or a World)
        I
        I
Knight (Administers a World or Industrial Sector)

The knight serves as the first line of the Imperial Nobility.  Usually a award
for service to the Empire.  This accolade cannot be passed to your children,
though it is not uncommon, once a family has achieved this social level, for the
children of a knight to also be knighted (usually for a far less demanding
achievement that the original gift...)

Knights, when awarded a fiefdom along with their title, will assume
administrative control (and recieve payment from) a backwater world or an
industrial sector of a more prosperous world or system.  They are responsible to
a Baron who they will pledge fealty to.

Barons will administer worlds or systems, and in some cases clusters of
systems.  Baronies are hereditary fiefdoms, and will pass to the designated heir
upon confirmation by the SubSector Duke.  Children of a Baron will also receive
the honor of being addressed by the title, however, with the exception of the
designated heir, they will not be able to pass that title to their children.
Barons are responsible to a SubSector Duke, who they will pledge fealty to.  The
Baron administering the system is the nominal commander of the System Defense
Forces, and may call upon the resources of the system to man those forces,
within the guidelines set by their Duke.

*Note - Planetary defense forces are the responsibility of the member worlds,
Imperial Nobles may not interfere with the manning or deployment of those forces
except where:

1) Such manning interferes with the planet's responsibility to provide Imperial
forces.
2) Such deployment threatens Imperial assets or interests.
3) Other cases, as defined by Imperial Law.

Certain individuals are granted the title of Baron for deeds for the glory of,
or in defense of, the Empire.  If no fiefdom is granted, then this is an
honorary title, and is not hereditary.

Dukes administer one or more SubSectors.  This is a hereditary position, and is
passed to the designated heir upon confirmation of the ArchDuke.  Dukes are
responsible to the ArchDuke, who they pledge fealty to.  Dukes are the nominal
commanders of the SubSector military forces and may call upon their vassals for
personnel to man those forces, within the guidelines set by his Arch-Duke.
Dukes are responsible to:

1) Maintain the Imperial Presence in their Sector.
2) Provide such forces as the member planets request for the safety and welfare
of the Imperium.
3) This is the lowest level of nobility that can authorize the interference with
Planetary governments.  Such interference requires a review by the Archduke.

ArchDukes administer Sectors or Domains.  These positions are appointed by the
Emperor/Emperess and are subject to his/her pleasure.  ArchDukes are responsible
to the Emperor/Emperess, who they pledge fealty to.  Archdukes are the nominal
commanders of all Imperial forces in their domain.


The focal point of any Imperial presence in a system will be on the mainworld.
The "Imperial Building" will be placed in the highport, if it exists, or else in
the downport.  All Imperial government offices will be located here, as will any
diplomatic missions an individual world has assigned to it.  Access to this
building will be controlled by Imperial Marines.  Any military presence, with
the exception of recruiting and public affairs, will be in a separate structure.

The primary purpose of the Knights and Barons are to promote their charges to
the Sector in general.  Since they recieve a fraction of the trade that passes
through thier area of administration, it is also in thier best interests to
increase the viability of their charges.  The Dukes and the Archdukes look to
maintain the peace, and the integrity of the Empire.

Fealty is always (with the exception of Oaths to the  Emperor) sworn to the
office, not to the person filling it.  There are provisions for personal oaths,
but they are not part of the office.  Fealty flows upward from one level to the
next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons
administering a system, neither will swear to each other, only to the Duke above
them.)

This is all I've really developed so far.  Comments?  Suggestions?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:39:35 -0500
From: Wesley Esser <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Current THUDD and G-Comp Stacking

What is the word on G-Comp stacking, alla CSC, in FFS2, and in
particular for the Fighter THUDD.  I am assuming that it is allowed,
using the CSC rules, since the official 10T fighters are 6G (actually,
that's really a matter of justifying that starships abomonition).  What
does everyone say in general, and regarding the THUDD in particular?

Wes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:07:31 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

	This one was pretty interesting.  It's the gun that I have the most
personal experience with, having stripped them zillions of times while in
the cadets.  I am also very impressed with how close FF&S2 has come to
matching my recollections of it; the size & weight strike me as being
pretty darn close to what I remember.  Anyhow, as far as my ongoing quest
to get a hold of recoil measurement goes, it's also pretty educational.
Next step is an elephant gun.


TL-5 Lee-Enfield .303

Evaluation:

Length:			109 cm
Bulk:			7
Mass (empty):		5.51 kg
Mass (loaded):		5.677 kg
Range:			79.62 m (Medium)
Actual Muzzle Energy:	3100
Damage:			5.3
Recoil:			3.47

Round:			7.7mmX56mmR
Barrel: 		53 cm light rifled, bayonet lug
Reciever: 		TL-5 light bolt-action repeater, wooden stock
Feed: 			5-round box

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:21:37 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

Man, IEEE Spectrum, as boring a magazine as it may sometimes
be, can have a lot of interesting inspirations for Traveller 
stuff in it... for those who are near a library, check out the October
issue of Spectrum. 

People who are bigger NMR/MRI experts than I should feel free
to correct me if I get anything wrong.

A short background on NMR:

Essentially,  when protons (hydrogen nuclei) are placed in a strong
magnetic field, they "precess", much like a gyroscope precesses in a
gravitational field. If you've never seen a gyroscope precess,
essentially what happens is that the axis of rotation of the gyroscope
rotates in such a way that the axis of rotation sweeps out a cone. If
you've ever seen a top wobble about its axis of rotation, you've seen
precession. (If you've ever sat through university undergrad physics,
you've probably seen a mathematical/physical explanation of why
precession occurs, but, if you're like me, you were asleep).

When an oscillating magnetic field is applied perpendicular to the
static field (which is causing the precession), the protons will begin
to precess about the axis of the oscillating field as well as the axis
of the static field. The oscillation of the protons about the new axis
excites a voltage in an RF coil, which can then be picked up,
demodulated and turned into really amazing images of anything that
contains a lot of hydrogen. In the case of humans, this means
water-bearing stuff, soft tissue.

(If you want the whole 9 yards, read the sidebar on pgs. 52-53 of
Spectrum. Be warned that reading Spectrum kinda assumes you have an
electrical engineering degree, so they kinda skip over bits of stuff,
like how a changing EM field can induce another field, which can, in
turn, induce a field in the object that generated the first field. But I
digress)

MIS - Medical Imaging System/Scanner

A standard fixture in any starship medical lab or sickbay is the MIS -
the Medical Imaging Scanner.

MIS systems are initially developed around TL 6, however they are too
bulky and fragile to be mobile and are only found in fixed
installations. By TL 9 or so they are suitably rugged to be used in
mobile applications. In terms of functionality, most starship based
units lag fixed units by about 1 TL and field units (sometimes even
man-portable) lag by about 2 TLs.

At TL 6, very early MIS systems used high-frequency radiation to
penetrate human tissue and leave images on photo-sensitive plates. The
drawbacks to this technique are that only high-density features are
accurately images (bones and foreign objects) and the rather unplesant
side effects that high-energy radiation has on the human body.
(Essentially, early MIS systems are X-Ray machines).

Around TL 8, the next major stage of development is two-fold: the
development of MRI and the integration of computerized signal
processing.

MRI exploits the properties of NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) to make
accurate images of water-bearing tissue. This is a major step up from
X-rays, as the technique doesn't involve exposing the patient to
radiation and as it gives an excellent view of organs, blood vessels,
etc.

Computerized signal processing is essential to NMR-based techniques, as
they don't have any sort of analogy to x-ray "film". Computer
techniques, used in conjunction with X-rays or NMR, also give the
ability to take multiple "slices" and recombine them into a three
dimensional model of the patient.

Early NMR based units (TL 8) require large magnetic fields, often in the
range of 5-18 teslas. These early units require the use of huge magnets
that very often enclose the entire patient (These units amy be as large
as 5 Td!). Higher TL units (TL 9+) often use smaller fields and, by
extension, have smaller field generation units. (Less than 1 Td).

At higher TLs, low-power x-rays are combined with NMR techniques to
yield images of soft & hard tissue, in three dimensions, often in
real-time. AT very high TLs, NMR techniques can be used to induce soft
tissue changes in the patient, which can be used in a variety of
non-invasive surgical techniques. Advances in field generation and
detection also lead to units shrinking as higher TLs, to the point where
around TL 13, you have units about the size of a large camcorder that
can give cross-sections of a typical human arm or leg.

Other technology related to the NMR scanners used in the MIS includes
NMR wide-band spectroscopy, which uses a variant NMR technique to
analyze chemical samples as small as 20 nL (20 nano-liters). This is
essentially standard spectroscopy, where you're trying to figure out
what something is made of, but unlike standard spectrometers, you can
get away with really, really small samples.

Anyway, if you need to describe a sick bay/medical lab this might be
good for some "colour". (If you need to add some colour to a
semiconductor cip fabrication plant in Traveller, you might want to look
at "Finding fault with deep-submicros ICs" in the same issue, but then
again, maybe you'll just leave the chip fab out of the adventure... :) )

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:22:41 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FF&S2 and Emperor's Vehicles question

I think this reflects a problem with FFS2 (partially inherited from FFS1);
MD/CPR guns are *way* better than plasma/fusion/PAW weapons. In FFS1 lasers
got a bonus on penetrating armour and hence were comparable...now that
that's gone, CPR/MD guns dominate over everything. As Wildstar says, 
laser weapons have various operational advantages...but not enough to
overcome the big advantage CPR guns have for non-space aps; and plasma/fusion
weapons aren't even in the running. As printed, FFS2 causes CPR/MD guns to
be the dominant vehicle weapon at all tech levels, which (in my opinion)
needs to be fixed. (The root of the problem is that for large CPR/MD guns
the penetration is linear with energy while for *EVERY* other weapon it's
square root (energy.) 

Try designing some tanks if you don't belive me.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:34:45 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: FF&S2: TL-7 Weatherby Magnum 

	OK... here's where things get a little interesting.  It seems that
an elephant gun will produce a recoil of 5.12.  One would think, therefore,
that a recoil of 5+ would pretty much over the top for a handgun,
especially as I gather you can injure yourself firing a Weatherby if it's
improperly braced.  OTOH, I don't know how well the FF&S2 reciever mass
formula holds up at the high end of the spectrum. If the reciever is far
too massive as compared to the real-life Weatherby, this would produce an
inaccurate recoil number.  Does anybody out there know the real-life mass
for the Weatherby?



TL-7 Weatherby .460 Weatherby Analogue

Length:			159.2 cm
Bulk:			10.6
Mass (empty):		13.9 kg
Mass (loaded):		13.99 kg
Price:			4381 cr
Basic Range:		165 m (Long)
Actual Muzzle Energy:	11,000 joules
Damage:			10 (9.98)
Recoil:			5.12

Round:			11.6mmX88.25mmR Weatherby Analogue
Barrel: 		81.75 cm heavy rifled
Reciever:  		TL-7 Heavy Bolt Action, wooden stock, TL-6 scope sight

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:33:26 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Money

Robert Ringrose wrote:

> In general, planets in traveller use credits.
>
> If you're going to (or coming from) a place which doesn't use credits, and
> doesn't have a set up method of exchanging between their currency and credits,
> you need to transform your wealth into something portable.

I've always had an exchange bank at the starport that will give you the current
market value (cross-index the starport/TL chart).  If you trade out in town, you
get a substantially worse rate (depending on the person you are dealing with, how
important it is, and your sobriety - just like the good 'ol days in the PI!)

>
>
> So, what form does portable wealth take in Traveller?  Most of the things we
> consider "valuable" now can be manufactured, or mined off astroids, in another
> couple tech levels.

Physical money (the credit), Paper letters of credit or bearer bonds, electronic
forms of transfer (I have a special computer installed on each starship that is
effectively tamperproof.  The one time it was tried, they wiped the bank and
killed it dead...several 100Ks of credit were lost - they haven't messed with one
since.)

> If you're on a high-tech world, of course, the tech itself is valuable.  But
> what if you're going the other direction?
>

Fad items (like gigapets or pet rocks), Hand crafts (like furniture), Unique items (woods, wines, foods, etc), specialty items (just how many worlds do you think produce sub-orbital pogo sticks or armored prams?), cultural/religious items,  etc...


_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:27:58 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

	Here's an attempt at a WWI anti-tank rifle.  Unfortunately, since I
don't have any data on the actual mass of the Boys Mk1 antitank rifle that
I modelled this after, I have no idea how accurate the recoil numbers are.
IMHO, 28.5 kg strikes me as being a wee bit heavy.  As I've mentioned
before, I think that the reciever length formula in FF&S2 is a wee bit off,
and ought to have a cap based on round power or reciever type or something.
As it happens, according to FF&S 1 a bolt-action reciever for this rifle
should be 85 cm long.  This of course throws the mass off and hence the
recoil.

	Any comments from the more firearms-savvy list members?  If
somebody knows how much the Boys weighed it'd be just fantastic; I could
then get a better value for the recoil.


TL-5 .55 Boys anti-tank rifle

Length:			232 cm (the reciever length & mass formulae are a
			bit off, IMHO
Bulk:			15.5
Mass (empty):		28.51 kg
Price:			8814 cr
Actual Muzzle Energy:	23500 joules
Basic Range:		234.2 m (Long)
Damage:			14.59
Recoil:			5.8

Round:			13mmX149mmR Boys .55 analogue
Barrel: 		122 cm heavy rifled
Reciever:  		TL-5 Bolt Action, wooden stock, telescopic sight

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:29:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

>As Hans pointed out earlier, we have the following situation:
>
>A: Piracy is canon, it is mentioned throughout the life of Traveller; it
>is represented in both the encounter tables and the chargen tables
>
>B: Naval and Industrial Capacity would seem to support the idea that
>Piracy can be stamped out.
>
>As Hans pointed out, A can exist, B can exist, but A and B cannot
>exist.  (Am I getting this correct?)

Well, this is _not_ agreed on.  For B to invalidate A it not only
has to be "possible" to stamp out piracy (or at least make
it a rare crime in special sitatuations, it is generally
impossible to _completely_ stamp out a crime) but it
has to low enough cost the Imperium would clearly choose
to do it.  (otherwise, you have to invoke assumptions about
how the Imperium would treat piracy, which makes the execise
not one of "invalidating" piracy but just putting forward
one possible interpretation in which it doesn't exist).

It maybe that you are presenting a "what if theories that
piracy can't exist are right" quesition.  However, it
needs to be noted that this is only relevant to those who
do think those theories are right.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:42:01 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

>
>Fealty is always (with the exception of Oaths to the  Emperor) sworn to the
>office, not to the person filling it.  There are provisions for personal oaths,
>but they are not part of the office.  Fealty flows upward from one level to the
>next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons
>administering a system, neither will swear to each other, only to the Duke
above
>them.)

Interesting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and most
commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. The reason behind this
is presumably that all institutions require to have their requirements
interpreted.  An oath to say serve and protect the Democratic Republic of
Kafiristan means nothing unless you know who speaks for it and decides what
ought to be done.  One solution is to presume it is simply lawful commands
(as laid down by that institution) that need to be obeyed, the difficulty
usually only arise when there is some disputes as to whrere the division of
powrers (if such is present) lies, or where parts of the institution are t
loggerheads.  There are less (note not no) problems with personal oths,
tytpically of the form, I XXX swear to serve YYYY [and sometimes also her
heirs and succssors], until such time as I be lawfully discharged (or
similar such).  If you want to know what is to be done, you can ask them.

Funnily, fealty (the obligation of fidelity on the part of a feudal tennant
or vassal to his Lord, or the recognition of this obligation) is not usually
one sided.  Such arrangements within medieval europe, between suzereign
(sometimes also sovereign) and vassal normally stipulated protection in
return for service, or similar such, made before large numbers of
witnessses, (especually important before litercy became widespread amongst
the nobility).  It is interesting to see to what degree the imperium carries
on these traditions. 
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 21:25:24 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

On 10/27/97 at 01:03 AM,  DustyLV769@aol.com said:

> ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
> about to do the same with Hornblower.

> ______________________________________ >>
>Captain Horatio Hornblower was already made into a movie...in the 1950's I
>believe.  Starred Gregory Peck and Virginia Mayo. Was a reasonably good
>action flick.

Yep, but that was just one of the books, and it was just one movie. If it's
done like the Sharpe books it will be a whole series of shows, a
mini-series if you will, and might be several of the books as well.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 21:53:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

On 10/27/97 at 06:15 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> said:

>	Seriously, though, if Rob were to port CSC to the PC, this list would
>turn into the biggest used hypothetical science fictional vehicle lot in
>Cyberspace for about a month.  IMHO, that'd be brutally cool.  However,
>what'd be even more fun would be an automated FF&S2...

Rob, 

I'm all for you doing a port. I'm also all for you doing a port of Mecator
(is that right?).  

I *also* agree with Rodrick that an automated FF&S2 would be even better!

Do I ask too much? ;->


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 22:00:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)

On 10/27/97 at 06:03 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>Not to mention inventing the communications satellite.

But then he "forgot" to patent it...;->

>I forget the wording of the Clarke-Asimov Agreement - anyone remember 
>which one is officially the world's best SF writer, and which is the 
>world's best science writer?

Logically, it would be Asimov, best science writer and Clarke, best science
fiction writer given the quality of Asimov's popular science books. I
remember inhaling those books when I was 13, 14. ;->

Eris,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 22:12:30 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

On 10/27/97 at 11:09 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>ISTR reading somewhere that the people who filmed the Sharpe books are 
>>about to do the same with Hornblower.

>I can't decide if I'm happy or sad that they're doing Horblower and not
>O'Brian...

Be happy! ;->

It means that once the Hornblower's are a smashing success, they'll need
new material and THEN THEY'LL DO THE AUBREY'S! ;->

>(For those who have no idea who I'm talking about - Patrick O'Brian has
>written a long, brilliant series of Napoleonic naval stories centered
>around Jack Aubrey - a captain in the RN - and Stephen Maturin, his
>particular friend, surgeon, and intelligence agent. 

Bruce is absolutely correct. These are *excellent* books.

Just thinking about Hornblower and Aubrey makes me want to run a
Napoleanic-type naval game.  Yes, it would be in Traveller...that's what I
specialize in ;->...but with the whole 18th to early 19th century feel. 
Including Broadsides and Boarding parties!  ;->  

What you want to bet that's why so many people want pirates to exist? ;->


Eris,
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:52:46 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

>
>	Any comments from the more firearms-savvy list members?  If
>somebody knows how much the Boys weighed it'd be just fantastic; I could
>then get a better value for the recoil.
>
>
From:The World Almanac Of World War Two.
Page:373 Infantry Antitank Weapons

The British army began World War II equipped with an antitank
rifle dating from 1934. This was the Boys, which had beenknow
as the Stanchion, but received the name of one of the development
team who died before it was completed.
The Boys rifle weighed 36 pounds and projected a .55-inch solid-shot bullet
at 3250fps. This could pernetrate 25mm of armor at 500 yards.
The weaopn was both heavy and unpleasant to fire-recoil was severe.
Boys rifle was fed from a top-mounted fiveround box magazine.


Hello,

I used this setup above for a TNE Anti-Personal/Anti-Equipment
Sniper rifle.

Come to find out The pary would only use it for bording actions



http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The One and Only FIREBASE Games Page!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:58:51 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Plante III Software on FTP?

Hello All,

Anyone have any Info. on the Plante III Software that was on
a FTP around a year ago.
The FTP site was posted here but I lost all my old email.

Thanks




http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The One and Only FIREBASE Games Page!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 23:10:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Weber's Universe

On 10/27/97 at 05:46 PM,  Martin Laurie <MLaurie@compuserve.com> said:

>At least Honor Harringtons universe has super dreadnoughts of only 8
>million tons!  

That's true, but is a Weber ton equal to a Traveller ton?  ;-> Even if they
are smaller (ship registry tons I suspect) the ships are generally *much*
larger than Traveller ships. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:09:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

 
Re: the Boys Anti-Tank Rifle
 
Having fired one several times earlier this summer, what I can tell you is that it is a heavy SOB.  _Military_Firearms_of_the_20th_C._, 4th Ed. reports that the Boys weighs 36 lb./16 kg. unloaded, so 28 kg. is, indeed, way off.
 
Lots of fun to fire, though.  Especially when lying prone, looking downrange towards a Wisconsin hillside of scrub pine and tall grass, trying to imagine a Pzkw. I or II getting ventilated (hopefully) every time I fired.
 
Victor

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2021
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2022



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Money
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: Essential Authors?
Re: Humour
Re: Pirates exist because...
re: Piracy - the new era :)
Striker?
Me
RE: Piracy - the new era :)
Re: Current THUDDD and G-Comp Stacking
Re: Small ships with jump drives
Re: SF Reading List
Re: Striker?
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Top 10 SF authors
Re: Piracy - the new era :)
Silent Death

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 23:00:28 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Money

On 10/27/97 at 05:45 PM,  Robert Ringrose <ringrose@ai.mit.edu> said:

>In general, planets in traveller use credits.

>If you're going to (or coming from) a place which doesn't use credits, and
>doesn't have a set up method of exchanging between their currency and
>credits, you need to transform your wealth into something portable.

I run my games in a universe of single system and small multi-system
governments.  If you want to travel to a nearby system that doesn't accept
your currency you have three options:

1. You can arrange for currency exchange either before you go or at your
destination.  There is going to be a fee for the exchange and rates are
going to bounce around.  You'll also have the problem of hauling the cash
around with you...trey dangerous! 

2. You can arrange for a "Bank Letter of Credit" through one of your local
banks.  You present your letter to a subscribing bank at your destination
and it extends you credit in a local account and passes a charge back to
the originating bank.  These banks balance accounts between themselves by
whatever exchanges of value they negotiate.  There is, of course, a small
handling fee, but it is safer and more convienent than hauling cash around. 
If a player handles it this way, she'll have to keep making arrangements
with banks as she travels from one financial jurisdiction to another,
because not all banks will deal with all other banks.  OTOH, it also gives
small armed traders something to haul around...legal documents going back
to calling banks.

3.  You can buy high value transportables with your cash and sell them for
local cash at your destination.  High value transportables would normally
be gems (jewel quality diamonds, opals, emeralds, starstones, fire-eyes) or
precious metals (gold, platinum, gold pressed latnium <joke>).  Of course,
you'll have to hope that your "high value" item is "high value" where
you're going.

Most of the players in my AKUS MOBY pbem are on this list, so here's a
reminder, if you don't transfer your CSA credits and/or make arrangments
with your banks before you get to the Mark system you'll be effectively
broke no matter what your bank balance says.  Some of you have made
arrangements, but some of you haven't even thought about it yet...;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 23:19:12 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

On 10/27/97 at 03:50 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>On the whole Hornblower thing...

>I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned David Feintuch's "Hope" series.
>Set in a very repressive future, it follows the amazing career of a single
>Navy officer in a star navy very reminiscent of the Hornblower saga.  Nick
>Seafort starts as a Midshipman who has to take command when all the
>commissioned officers are killed.  He is a tormented soul, pursued by the
>demons of his strict upbringing and holding himself to an impossible
>standard.

It's the angst, Doug.  There's only soooo much self-doubt and torment I can
take.  Why can't the poor guy either get a break, a life, or a clue!  Why
can't Feintuch give his protagonist a break.... ;->  Weber's Harrington has
her depression, troubles, and psychological hangups, but her's don't bother
me nearly as much as Seaford's.

I'll eventually read the rest of the books, but they'll come from a used
book store.

>The first book is "Midshipman's Hope", and is highly recommended for the
>Age of Sail fans among us.

Yes, I do recommend it too. Even if the angst made me squirm the book was
worth reading.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:45:50 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

<scckkrraaacckt!>
> MIS - Medical Imaging System/Scanner...
<shrrreeeddd-snip!>

This is a great post.

<the crowd goes wild, chanting>
More useful tech! More useful tech!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:29:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

In mail you write:

> It's not for nothing that I'm one of rec.games.frp.misc's Great Old Ones

"Hey, Douglas! Look at this neat starstone I picked up on Mnar..."

"Doug? Gee, where'd he go?"

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:46:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Essential Authors?

In mail you write:

> "A Fire Upon the Deep"   I loved this book, but didn't really find it
> "Traveller".  I did steal the group mind aliens, though..

I'd hate to face a fighter group manned by one of them! At least not
unless I could be *sure* of jamming their comm links. If you can, you
slaughter them. If you can't, they slaughter you. :-)

> I strongly recommend his recent books (Legacy of Heorot, Beowulf's
> Children, and Destiny's Road) as source materials for designing low pop
> worlds.

For for some interesting ideas on ecology. Grendels are bad, but some
of the other critters... 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:34:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Humour

In mail you write:

>   Here's an interesting proposition for the Traffic Control types;
> you're being asked to haul a passenger in your trader to a pre-stellar
> tech world (TL 7-8?). You're required to go through the starport,
> preferably without a search. The passenger _must_ not go through the
> port, but has no official standing (i.e., not IN, noble, or eminent
> mafioso). The passenger has extensive marine type experience for a
> non-combat insertion.
>
>   How do you do it with a minimum risk of you or the passenger getting
> caught? (No, not a puzzle, just working out solutions). Payment is on
> completion. No, they won't tell you who he is or what he's doing.

If they can spare the time, the easiest entry is to use a combo of a
personal re-entry kit and some fast drug. You dump the guy into a
trajectory that'll look like a natural meteoroid. The fast drug makes
the wait tolerable (or is it slow drug I want, I keep getting them
confused). When he gets close enough to the planet, an antidote for the
drug is administered so that he'll be at normal speed for re-entry. 

He'll have the radar return of a rock that isn't worth worrying about.
And one way of unobtrusively dumping him is to come out of jump
and either start drifting immediately, or have M-drive failure after
you get the right vector. You can blame it on the "bargain" the
engineer got on some parts. :-)

You use the ship to mask the launch of the re-entry pod. It won't need
much thrust, so it should be fairly easy to screen the small rocket
from the planetary sensors. Especially for a TL7-8 world.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:06:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pirates exist because...

In mail you write:

>>Pirates exist because piracy suppression exists.
>>
>>If there were no pirates there would be no support within the givernmens
>>for budget allocations to piracy suppression, ie. there would be no piracy
>>problem to solve. The fact that piracy suppression is available and
>>deployed means that there is a threat that needs a solution.
>
> I believe that parts of the SDI project still gets funding - therefore your
> argument is moot.

Nope. Those parts of SDI get funding *because* there are still folks
with missiles out there. And in fact, since we now have to worry about
*fewer* missiles, the problem gets *easier*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:49:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Piracy - the new era :)

>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Piracy - the new era :)
>
>OK.  We've polarized the list into the pro- and anti- piracy camps

  Uh-oh. Does that mean that we're darned to heck for eternity
if we haven't made up our minds yet? :)

>Instead of arguing from the outside in (ie why one exists rather than
>the other), let's shift.  Let's argue from the inside out!

  All in favour. I guess I'm an anti-piracy person who thinks
that piracy is possible under certain circumstances in the 3I.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:25:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker?

>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:22:41 -0800
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Re: FF&S2 and Emperor's Vehicles question
....
>needs to be fixed. (The root of the problem is that for large CPR/MD guns
>the penetration is linear with energy while for *EVERY* other weapon it's
>square root (energy.) 
>
>Try designing some tanks if you don't belive me.

Hello,
  Talk about weird - in Striker it was _the other way around_.
BTW, does anyone know how big the differences were between
Striker I and II? Did II have a design sequence, or use MT?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:22:55 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Me

Hello,

I started playing Traveller in 1982 at Jr. High in Tucson AZ.
I stooped when I join the Army in 1989 and started back up with
MT in 1993. 
Now I just play TNE with the Rebellion as a setting
Well I have read T4 and seen some of the stuff for it I just never
went and blow the cash on the books
Maybe someday I will.
(Last time on TML T4 was not even at the shops)

I also like weapons of WW1&WW2, Which I have so many books
And also weapons and armor from 500bc-1300ad 

Thanks
 


http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The One and Only FIREBASE Games Page!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:03 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Piracy - the new era :)

- ----------
From: 	David P. Summers[SMTP:summers@alum.mit.edu]
Sent: 	Monday, October 27, 1997 5:29 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Piracy - the new era :)

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

>As Hans pointed out earlier, we have the following situation:
>
>A: Piracy is canon, it is mentioned throughout the life of Traveller; it
>is represented in both the encounter tables and the chargen tables
>
>B: Naval and Industrial Capacity would seem to support the idea that
>Piracy can be stamped out.
>
>As Hans pointed out, A can exist, B can exist, but A and B cannot
>exist.  (Am I getting this correct?)

Well, this is _not_ agreed on.  For B to invalidate A it not only
has to be "possible" to stamp out piracy (or at least make
it a rare crime in special sitatuations, it is generally
impossible to _completely_ stamp out a crime) but it
has to low enough cost the Imperium would clearly choose
to do it.  (otherwise, you have to invoke assumptions about
how the Imperium would treat piracy, which makes the execise
not one of "invalidating" piracy but just putting forward
one possible interpretation in which it doesn't exist).

It maybe that you are presenting a "what if theories that
piracy can't exist are right" quesition.  However, it
needs to be noted that this is only relevant to those who
do think those theories are right.

___________________

I am not conceding the debate.  I am, however, conceding that we have 
hammered on this thread for a month now, and the  principles who started 
the debate have not shifted position appreciably.  It is time to shift the 
view to how it can be played, rather than whether or not it should be.

As I said, I think we all agree that piracy is canon.  I think we all agree 
that it adds flavor to the game.  Let's shift our energy from battling each 
other (albeit it is fun) to making creating the environment necessary to 
enjoy this facet of the game.  If we put half the energy into that process, 
I think we will be able to resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction! 
 :)

Ambassador douglas

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Current THUDDD and G-Comp Stacking

> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:39:35 -0500
> From: Wesley Esser <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> 
> What is the word on G-Comp stacking, alla CSC, in FFS2, and in
> particular for the Fighter THUDD.  I am assuming that it is allowed,
> using the CSC rules, since the official 10T fighters are 6G (actually,
> that's really a matter of justifying that starships abomonition).  What
> does everyone say in general, and regarding the THUDD in particular?

For the purposes of the THUDDD, this has already been clearly decided; see
the THUDDD website for details.  In short, FFS2 establishes canon for
THUDDD purposes; other design systems may be used only to the extent they
agree with FFS2.  As FFS2 does not allow g-comp stacking, neither is it
permitted in THUDDD entries.

Now, realize that today's fighter pilots pull 3Gs routinely, which is what
you'd feel at 6Gs with 3 compensated.  Of course, they do this for only
very short intervals, as opposed to space fighters which might be called
upon to accelerate longer.  In short, I'm leaving the answer to this
dilemma up to the THUDDD designers, and then the judges:  How much
acceleration can/should a TL-12 fighter have, in the absence of g-comp
stacking?

By the way, another note:  As fighters tend to be dense, be sure to run
mass-based acceleration calculations for your designs, not just
volume-based.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:06:15 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives

>I wonder ...
>
>Can a ship smaller than 100 tons have a jump engine ?
>
>I use T4 and Starships. While designing ships, I realized that there are no
>figures for jumpdrives for smaller ships. Why ?

Those who want smaller J-drives go ahead and use them but be warned that
they might wreac havoc on the underlying assumtions about the Imperium.
As FF&S2 went back to the old 10% x Jn fuel requirements for jumps perhaps
we could add this arbitrary rule:
Jump fuel requirements are: 10% x Jn but always at least 10dTon x Jn.
This allows you the ability to make smaller jumpships but at a MUCH higher
cost in fuel percentage.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:40:54 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: SF Reading List

Though not Travelleresque, these authors and books are among my favourites:

John Varley     - Titan; Wizard; Demon; 
                        Picnic on Nearside (aka The Barbie murders) (coll.);
                        The Ophiuchi Hotline (coll.)

James Tiptree, Jr. (pseudonym of Alice Sheldon). Best known for her short
stories, collected in Warm Worlds and Otherwise; 10,000 Light Years from
Home; Her Smoke Rose Up Forever; and others. "Houston, Houston, Do You
Read" is an absolute must-read. "The Screwfly Solution" (written as
'Racoona Sheldon') is without a doubt the scariest story I've ever read.
"I'll Be Waiting for You When the Swimming Pool is Empty" is one of the
funniest.

Fredrick Pohl   - Gateway; Beyond the Blue Event Horizon; Heechee Rendezvous...
        Unfortunately, the Heechee books go downhill quickly. But Gateway
must be one of the top ten best SF novels of all time.

Samuel R. Delany  - Nova; Triton; Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand;
                        Babel-17

Bruce Sterling  - Schismatrix; Islands in the Net; Heavy Weather; Holy Fire;
                        Crystal Express (coll); Globalhead (coll);
                        Involution Ocean; The Artificial Kid

Gwynneth Jones  - White Queen;
        A challenging but astonishing book about mis-communication between
humans and humanoid alien visitors; written like a very good mainstream
novel that has somehow fallen backwards in time from the mid-21st Century.
The author explains very little, forcing the reader to figure out much of
the background from dropped hints and tantalizingly vague references. Not
an easy read, but well worth it. Confounds expectations at every turn.

Geoff Ryman     - The Child Garden
        Beautifully written, hilarious, bizarre, brilliant, powerful,
unique... I run out superlatives for this thing. A tragic lesbian love
story between a misfit actress and a geneered human polar bear/opera
singer(!). Nobody reads any more, but everyone is hyper-educated thanks to
geneered viruses that transfer knowledge into the brain. Ryman is so
wildly, endlessly inventive that I can easily ignore the occasionally wonky
science. (Especially recommended for fans of Dante's Divine Comedy, which
provides a thematic template.)

Neal Stephenson - Snow Crash; Zodiac; The Diamond Age

Jack McDevitt   - The Hercules Text
        The best 'first-radio-Contact' novel ever written.

George Alec Effinger - When Gravity Fails; A Fire in the Sun; The Exile Kiss
        Was there another Marid Audran novel after Exile Kiss? I thought
these books just kept getting better and better. Effinger insistently put
his character through unexpected changes, and admirably avoided falling
into any Detective or Science Fiction formula.

Jack Womack     - Heathern; Ambient; Terraplane; Elvissey; 
                        Random Acts of Senseless Violence;
        Fans who feel that the writer's style should be 'invisible' will
hate this stuff. Social satire written in a dense futuristic argot, with an
acidic sense of irony and vast amounts of, yes, senseless violence.
Cyberpunk without any of the 'cyber'.

So that's my list - in addition to lots of other names that have already
been mentioned, especially Bear and Brunner.

Glenn

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:31:42 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Striker?

>Hello,
>  Talk about weird - in Striker it was _the other way around_.
>BTW, does anyone know how big the differences were between
>Striker I and II? Did II have a design sequence, or use MT?
>
>        Yours truly,
>                Steven Hudson

Striker II was beased (I think) upon the Command system from GDW with no
design system and a definite WWII feel to the rules. Gone were the order
giving system that gave Striker its unique RPG flavor. The feeling I got
from Striker II was that it was done by somebody not very familiar with
Traveller but that was the feel I got from all TNE stuff.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:05:13 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

	OK... several people have posted to the effect that the actual
weight of the Boys was 16.56 kg.  Here're the revised numbers.  And why am
I so worried that I'm hanging around on a list where not only do several
people know the weight of an antique anti-tank rifle off by heart, but
somebody's actually fired the thing :)?

	Basically, the Boys, according to FF&S2, should have a recoil of
6.38.  Those of you who've fired it; how bad was the recoil?  On a scale of
1 to 10; 1 being your 93-year-old grandma could run around firing it all
day, 10 being Ahnold could fire it once and would run whimpering straight
to his masseur.

	Interestingly, not only does the FF&S2 reciever length seem a
little off, but if the Boys had a 36-inch barrel, then the barrel length is
off by approximately 20% too, with a corresponding effect on weight.


TL-5 .55 Boys anti-tank rifle

Length:			232 cm
Bulk:			15.5
Mass (empty):		16.56 kg
Price:			8814 cr
Actual Muzzle Energy:	23500 joules
Basic Range:		234.2 m (Long)
Damage:			14.59
Recoil:			6.38

Round:			13mmX149mmR Boys .55 analogue
Barrel: 		122 cm heavy rifled
Reciever:  		TL-5 Bolt Action, wooden stock, telescopic sight

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:31:44 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Top 10 SF authors

This represents a set of personal favourites in no particular order, 
as opposed to a list including influential authors who didn't write 
very well IMHO.

C.J. Cherryh (Merchanters universe)
Julian May (Saga of the Exiles, etc.)
Stephen Donaldson ('Gap' series, some short stories)
Jerry Pournelle (Falkenberg's Legion)
Larry Niven (Ringworld, and some others set in Known Space)
Robert A. Heinlein (Starship Troopers, The Door Into Summer)
Harry Harrison (Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, Stainless Steel 
     Rat series, Bill the Galactic Hero)
Gordon R. Dickson (_Childe_ cycle, i.e. the Dorsai books)
Douglas Adams (Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
Neal Stevenson (Snow Crash, The Diamond Age)

If Julian May isn't SF-y enough, my reserve would be William Gibson 
(Neuromancer).

So many of you have recommended Feintuch to me, I think I'm going to 
have to invest... especially as I like C.S. Forrester and Patrick 
O'Brien's seafaring stuff so much.  (Heck, I even like 'Alexander 
Kent''s books.)

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:50:46 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)

>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0800
>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Piracy - the new era :)
>
<snip>
>
>Instead of arguing from the outside in (ie why one exists rather than
>the other), let's shift.  Let's argue from the inside out!
>
>I _think_ we are all in agreement that having pirates in the game adds
>flavor and some excitement.  Having PCs that have that in their
>background gives the GM a fair amount of history to draw on.  So, rather
>than developing a either/or situation (which really doesn't help anyone,
>even if it is fun to debate) let's concentrate on developing the
>rationale where such a situation _could_ occur (which _would_ help the
>GMs at large, since we have to turn around and explain to our players
>why we just blew their ship to MC^2 with a pirate that shouldn't be
>there!)  Perhaps one of the several authors that frequent the list will
>be able to produce something constructive that we can then point to as
>'canon' when this debate (inevitably) resurfaces in the future!  :)
>
This is a good thing - of such ideas are roleplaying plots made.

A related question is:

       "Why doesn't the pirate crew just sell off their own ship
        and retire on the profits?"

It can't be the bank payments, because if the pirates can't skip their
payments and sell off their ship then how could they find a market for
stuff that they steal?

But then where does the pirate ship come from?

Borrowing 30-300MCr from any bank wanting to stay in business is going to
require good security and a sound business plan - so what is the business
plan of a pirate?

#1
Well you could find the ship dead in space - but this is just salvage
rights and 5% or 10% of the ship's value is lots. In any case, unless
it landed with alomst no damage, you need a ship to salvage the ship...

#2
Maybe some "organisations" specialise in this sort of loan - supplying
a ship for a cut of the profits. In this country (UK) the large breweries
tend to provide the loans to lease pubs in exchange for tying the landlord
into a contract on beer and other supplies.

These organisations might also provide other services such as no questions
asked damage repair and cargo handling, guaranteeing to return at least
5% of cargo value to the pirate. They would also give the pirate an area
of operations with no competition, but be unhappy to find one of their
ships out of area (after all someone might be trying to steal it :)

(A chance to have a follow up mission to the PCs defeat the pirates and
capture their ship scenario :)

#3
It seems to be agreed that the question is "independant" pirates, so
I'll ignore ships from a rival Navy or Megacorp.

#4
Maybe the ship was owned by the Navy or a Megacorp. and the crew has
resigned or an independant trader who has skipped bank payments.
Since it can't be sold in the area they are heading out of the empire.
On the way they are looking for parts or wanting to change ships to
avoid discovery (eg "swap" ships with a trader, call for help and then
thank the SDB when they destroy the "pirate" and the evidence).

#5
Pirate or customs inspection?
A mercenary cruiser or a couple of armed merchants could easily be at a
planet with a merc team for a (planetary) government backed mission.

Part of the mission could include trade inspections. If the ship has the
correct paperwork to prove that it is acting on behalf of the recognised
government then even an complete batron of Tigresses might not have the
jurisdiction to interceed (although they might encourage PC compliance:)

If the world is low tech or balkanised, the true position of the "pirate"
might not be clear...

Phil Kitching
- --
  Mailto:Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT - they only pay me:)
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex, UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:34:52 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Silent Death

I opened up my copy of Silent Death this morning just to
remind myself of the rules.
The movment system was based on movement points to
enter a hex or to turn and you can use anything up
to your allowance. I don't think that I was misreading
anything.

Its some years since I played the game but I recall
that it concentrates on small ships (ie fighters),
the squadron movement gave me some concerns and it uses
the hit point style of damage (ie as you take damage,
systems stop working at predefined points and finally
your ship goes bang).

Also the weapon ranges would be too short and finally, 
the real killer...

<duck>

It uses multiple dice of *different* types

</duck>

I also recall that it was a good game to play but then
I also thought that about Star Fleet Battles. I just
don't see the connection to traveller.

But if what we actually get from ICE is an updated Mayday with T4 rules, pretty models of the ships...:)

Phil Kitching

(of course the models of the ships would presumably be based on T4 Starships)


- --
  Mailto:Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT - they only pay me:)
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex, UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2022
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2023



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Piracy -- The new era!
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Where is piracy safe?
Re: Economic data
Pirates and money
Re: Bolos
Re: CSC Porting
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Humor?
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed  pirate, part 2) 
Re: Recommended Reading
Re: SDBs
Re: Piracy -- The new era!
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Small ships with jump drives
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:58:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Paolo Marino wrote:
> 
> The Piracy Thread (which I've collected) is getting near the megabyte
> in volume.
> 
Looks like there possibly will be an "Piracies" Sourcebook in the 
Traveller Line?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:48:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> > No, you can see a 3d "projection" of a 4d event, just like a drawing or
> > picture is a 2d projection of a 3d event.
> 
> 
> Right ... but my point is that you are still seeing it in *3d*, not 4d. A
> 3d "projection" of 4d space is not any more likely to cause mental illness
> than any other 3d stimuli.
> 
> 
Remember the Graphics of the dutch drafter Maurits Cornelis Escher?
The twisted "Belvedere" is a classic example of a building that cannot be 
built in three dimensions. Looking at this Graphic is quite fascinating, 
but does it drive you crazy? It didn't so to me (I do hope that), and I 
got this one as a jigsaw puzzle in 1000 pieces!

So, even if one could see a fourdimensional thing (or its 3D shadow), for 
me that would not be enough to become insane.

Else, why would anyone risk travel through JSpace for a total week, if 
there is this chance of getting mental dislocated?

Lars Adler

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:29:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!

David P. Summers writes:

>>As Hans pointed out earlier, we have the following situation:
>>
>>A: Piracy is canon, it is mentioned throughout the life of Traveller; it
>>is represented in both the encounter tables and the chargen tables
>>
>>B: Naval and Industrial Capacity would seem to support the idea that
>>Piracy can be stamped out.

Not naval and industrial capacity taken out of contest, but that capacity
compared to the share thereof canonically used on the navy and the size of
the navy compared to the number of places you'd need to guard in order to
make piracy very difficult.

>>As Hans pointed out, A can exist, B can exist, but A and B cannot
>>exist.  (Am I getting this correct?)
> 
>Well, this is _not_ agreed on.  For B to invalidate A it not only
>has to be "possible" to stamp out piracy [...] but it [also] has to
>[have a] low enough cost the Imperium would clearly choose to do it.

Exactly. And if it only takes a tiny percentage of the active fleet to
safeguard all the necessary places, I submit that such is the case. You
may argue that _all_ the active ships of the regular, colonial, and
planetary fleets would be needed to sit around the high-population
worlds looking menacing, instead of just 99.8% of them, but this is just
as clearly contrary to previously published material. Not only are there
examples of ship designs that are of practically no value in a general
fleet engagement and are described as being used for escort duties, police
operations, patrol duties, and even anti-piracy operations (check
_Fighting Ships_ for specific examples) and of ships specifically
designed for anti-piracy activity (_Sydkai_ Class Cruisers in MTJ#3 for
example), but there are also mentions of cruisers and even battleships
being routinely deployed singly instead of in squadrons during peacetime
(In wartime the BatRons are deployed as units).

>(otherwise, you have to invoke assumptions about
>how the Imperium would treat piracy,

We know how the Imperium treats piracy. They patrol against pirates and even
employ strike forces to replace governments that are found to support them.
The discrepancy lies in how many ships they ought to have have available
to do the job vs. how few ships they would have to be using in order _Not_
to make piracy almost impossible.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:47:50 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

> OK... several people have posted to the effect that the actual
> weight of the Boys was 16.56 kg.  Here're the revised numbers.  And why am
> I so worried that I'm hanging around on a list where not only do several
> people know the weight of an antique anti-tank rifle off by heart, but
> somebody's actually fired the thing :)?

This is, IMO, the reason that the TML is the coolest mailing list 
around. You ask a question about astronomy and the astronomers pop
up. You ask a question about sensors and the IR astronomer pops
up and says "Well, I ran some simulations...". You ask about a 
wonking huge anti-tank rifle and someone's fired it. You ask about
real-world military vehicles, someone's usually driven one. Hey, you
can even get answers about Quebec civil law. ;)

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:56:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Where is piracy safe?

Steven Hudson writes:
>   With regards to the piracy thing, let's work through where in
>a i) high pop system, you'd be safe to rip-off starships.
> 
>  For convenience sake, this is a stellar tech culture in a system
>effectively identical to ours, with a few billion+ sapient critters.

OK. Say they have a total production equal to Cr10,000/citizen per year,
or MCr20,000,000. Let's give them a military budget of 3%, standard
peacetime spending according to _Striker_. Total: MCr600,000. Of this
figure 30% goes to the interstellar state of which the world is a
member. We would be justified in assumingh that quite a few of the
ships bought for that money would be stationed in the system, but let's
ignore that for the moment. Ther remains MCr420,000. Since the mainworld
is similar to Old Earth, (ie. has a breathable atmosphere), 40% of that
goes to support an army. There remains MCr252,000. Using TCS's figure of
10% of purchase price to support a ship, this can support MCr2,520,000
of ships. If you have eight ships laid up in ordinary for each ship you
keep active in peacetime, you'd have an active fleet worth MCr1,386,000.

>  Say there's a few colonial BatRons and CruRons (some of the latter
>are elsewhere), lots of little warships, and the happy little animals
>of the SDB/COACC arm. All the heavy iron is parked around the main
>world except for a few cruisers around the GG's and Mars. Reasonable?

I think the bulk of the planetary navy would be cruiser-sized SDBs, with
a smattering of smaller ships. But that's just an unsupported opinion.

>  Let's assume that a manned merchant starship can and will be able
>to cry for (distant, likely) help using his maser, and that traffic
>control will get on your case big time if your transponder (not an
>Imperial series, just a repeater for ID/location, etc.) isn't up.
>You also get fined if they catch you throwing pig iron ingots or the
>like out of the cargo hatch...  ...right?

Well, any ship that isn't close to a warship can thumb its nose at
regulations _provided_ it isn't using its regular transponder code
and is able to disguise itself.

>   Masses inside the orbit of Terra are a non-starter. A vessel can't
>jump safely from inside Sol's 100-D zone (correct?),

Depends on just what rules you use. The ones I prefer are the MT ones
that makes it too hazardous to get insurance inside the 100 diameter,
but not really desperate until you get inside 10 diameters. Note,
however, that any rule that helps a pirate get away from a warship
will help a merchant get away from a pirate, and any rule that helps
a warship catch a pirate will help the pirate catch a merchant.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:06:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economic data

David P. Summers writes:
>>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>And I have tried to make these points before:
>>
>>The ships that might be lost cost a hell of a lot.
> 
>In which case the pirates might find taking just the cargo
>a better bet because they don't worry about having to
>move a damaged or sabotaged ship

The problem with that is that pirate ships costs a hell of a lot too,
and if they only get a cargo once in a blue moon, they won't be able
to make a profit. 

>and, more importantly, they don't have to deal with the heat that such
>a heavy loss would call down on them.

The problems with that notion is that what is bad for pirates as a class
is good for the individual pirate. Assuming for purposes of argument that
he has managed to capture a ship intact, the ship is so much more valuable
than the cargo, even if we assume rock-bottom fencing prices, that he
would be crazy to leave it behind just to avoid increasing the odds
against him at a later date. A ship can easily represent 10-20 cargoes
(assuming cargoes can be sold for their full value, a very iffy assumption
to begin with), so why not take the ship and retire and let the other
pirates worry about the reaction?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:28:13 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Pirates and money

Having recommended Stephen Donaldson's 'Gap' series, I ought to point 
out that one of the driving forces behind the series was (having 
written a novella in which piracy featured) working out how piracy 
could possibly exist.

But that would be telling - suffice it to say that it is not merely a 
question of private enterprise.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:29:30 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@carl.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Bolos

An acquaintance wanted me to forward this, so here it is...

In a message dated 97-10-27 22:33:02 EST, you write:

>
>Given the info in the Bolo's in the various books:
>
>Complete Bolo
>Bolo Books 1-4 
>and Bolo Brigade
>
>It seems unlikely that a Bolo can be simulated at the traveller level.
>
>The most powerful Bolos (my favourite being the planetary seige bolo,
>so called because of you dropped it on a planet it can beseige the
>ENTIRE planet) can fly their huge bulk, travel at 200km per hour
>on the ground shoot up to 4 Hellbores with a firepower _per second_
> of many megatons of plasma into orbit as well as a whole host of lesser
>weapons, including ICBMs and infinite repeaters with enough 
>firepower to blast an overturned bolo back onto its tracks!!!!
>
>Whoever said the AI is amazing was spot on, so strategically capable
>as to immediately ascertain then enemies pattern and so rapid in 
>calculation that it can immediately weigh up the correct place to fire
>to cause maximum disruption.  
>
>Maybe the ancients built them for a laugh but the specs are beyond
>traveller IMO.
>
>

   What about the earlier Marks, like good old "Markee" down in San Gabriel?
 Ought to be easy for Bill G to work out the software, as Markee was pretty
dumb.  And if we got a little bit away from the operator independant sent up,
the Third Imperium should be able to field at least a Mark XXIV.  The
Glorious Mk XXX  may be a little much, But then I was always a favorite of
Bolos of the Line 375-RML and 278-DAK myself.

Scott Hann
ElevenMike@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:41:19 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

At 06:15 PM 10/27/97 -0600, Rod Elliot wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>>At 02:02 PM 10/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>>I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How
much >>>am I offered?

Java would be way cool.  Then your platform becomes less important.

>>>Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
>>>money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)
>> >I can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into
>>>converting the code...
>>
>>PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!!!!!!!
>>
>>If you do it, James and I won't use you as an example in the At Close
>>Quarters....

>	Seriously, though, if Rob were to port CSC to the PC, this list
>would turn into the biggest used hypothetical science fictional vehicle lot
>in Cyberspace for about a month.  IMHO, that'd be brutally cool.  However,
>what'd be even more fun would be an automated FF&S2...

Let me second that last.  SAL was wonderful, but I would like to see
something like CSC for FF&S2.  If you have some extra time, Rob, how about
that?

BTW, Rob, if you do have any luck compiling on a Mac for the PC with CW,
let me know.  I have been able to make PC executable on the PC, and Mac
executables on the Mac, but have had no luck otherwise.

Wow.

3 TLAs in one sentence.

Cool.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:51:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

At 03:48 PM 10/28/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Remember the Graphics of the dutch drafter Maurits Cornelis Escher?
>The twisted "Belvedere" is a classic example of a building that cannot be 
>built in three dimensions. Looking at this Graphic is quite fascinating, 
>but does it drive you crazy? It didn't so to me (I do hope that), and I 
>got this one as a jigsaw puzzle in 1000 pieces!

Escher is one of my favorites, but remember, when you look at his prints,
you are looking at a 2-d image of a 4-d event.

>So, even if one could see a fourdimensional thing (or its 3D shadow), for 
>me that would not be enough to become insane.

I'm having fun guessing who on this list has had experience with LSD.
Trust me.  If it looks real enough, it will affect your mind.  

>Else, why would anyone risk travel through JSpace for a total week, if 
>there is this chance of getting mental dislocated?

Ever fly anywhere?  Why did you get into a fragile metal tube with
thousands of moving parts and trust a trick of physics to keep you from
returning to Earth at several hundred miles per hour?  Because it's
convenient.  When in Jumpspace, just turn off the exterior views and put up
nice pastoral scenes.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:16:01 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

Ethan Henry writes 
>[nice article on NMR and traveller-style description of NMR imaging]

It's interesting to try and think of some other medical imaging technologies
that might come into play at high tech levels. Possibly damper-style 
manipulation of the strong force could be used for a nuclear scanner - 
either to induce mild radioactivity in specific normally-stable isotopes 
to locate them in the body (like a PET scanner, which uses positron-emitting
decay in some radioisotope who's name escapes me, but without the requirement
for injecting the positron-emitter) or through resonances in the strong force
itself (conservation of energy implies that how much power damping/augmenting
the nuclear force requies is a function of what material is used...) 

Then there are neural activity scanners, which are currently pretty
ill-defined; and maybe there would be a roll for grav scanners in medical
applications, if they're precise enough, to chart out interior density/
composition.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:14:06 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>> > No, you can see a 3d "projection" of a 4d event, just like a drawing or
>> > picture is a 2d projection of a 3d event.
>> 
>> 
>> Right ... but my point is that you are still seeing it in *3d*, not 4d. A
>> 3d "projection" of 4d space is not any more likely to cause mental illness
>> than any other 3d stimuli.
>> 
>> 
>Remember the Graphics of the dutch drafter Maurits Cornelis Escher?
>The twisted "Belvedere" is a classic example of a building that cannot be 
>built in three dimensions. Looking at this Graphic is quite fascinating, 
>but does it drive you crazy? It didn't so to me (I do hope that), and I 
>got this one as a jigsaw puzzle in 1000 pieces!
>
>So, even if one could see a fourdimensional thing (or its 3D shadow), for 
>me that would not be enough to become insane.
>
>Else, why would anyone risk travel through JSpace for a total week, if 
>there is this chance of getting mental dislocated?


There are many, many visual events which can affect the human nervous
system.  Lights flashing at just the right rythym causing epileptic
seizures are a good example.  The unusual nature of J-space could easily be
said to do something even more drastic.  Remember: it isn't real.  J-Space
doesn't exist, so trying to force it to obey the laws of the REAL universe
makes no sense.  Have fun with it.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:20:50 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Humor?

> A Boulton Said:
> Subject: Re: Vargr Pulps
> 
> In-Reply-To: <199710211545.QAA23230@sand.global.net.uk>
> 
> > The Dogs of War?
> 
> The Dogfather
> Twelve Puppies
> Invasion of the Doggy Snatchers
> Jurassic Bark

And, in answer to the question 
"Who are the most popular classical composers among the Vargr?"

1) Orff
2) Bach
3) Offenbach

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:27:33 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium (was: The unsuppressed  pirate, part 2) 

Scott Ellsworth wrote:[snip]

> An analysis of the number of skills a CT player got showed that the Scouts
> alone, 1/6th of the population, could produce any conceivable number of
> Pilot-6s, if the chargen charts represented the average person's life.
>
> I do not have a good solution for you, save to note that the military,
> which are represented in four of the basic services should really be far,
> far less than 10% of the population most of the time, and that producing
> enough of those ships would consume way, way too much cash.

That makes some sense.  The straight Imperial military forces (Army, Navy,
Marines) should  come to less than 10%.  However the Scout service really has no
analogy IRL.  Further, if you consider that part of their duties are in locating
exploitable resources - they may actually recoup part or all of their operating
expenses.

So perhaps we can shift the numbers from 50% of the population finding careers
outside of the basic 6 (my original supposition) and bump it up to 80%.  That
puts military draft at about 50% of what is left, or 10%.  Since some of those
people will be co-opted by Planetary, System and Subsector forces, that leaves
the percentage going to Imperial service at far less than 10%.

> My general rule is that you must pick one place to stand, state it loudly,
> and then see what it implies.  I have settled on PCGPP as my spot, and it
> seems that we should have an average one of about 10KCr/person, +/- 3KCr.
> (Drawn from Striker, food costs in T4, present day GNPs and a credit<->$
> conversion.  Which one you make "real" and which you make derived will
> determine what number you get.)

umm...OK.  THAT SOUNDS GOOD.  ;)

> Given that, we know how much money the Imperium has as an economic body,
> and then we can decide how much of it goes through space, and how much is
> used to defend that part going through space.  Once you know that, you can
> decide if ships are too cheap or too expensive in order to determine how
> the world works.

Actually, there has only been a bit of argument on how much money the Imperium
has to spend.  (Although, it has been kinda neat to count it...  1..2..3.. wow!
:)  There has been a great big argument on how the money is spent.

[snip]

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1997 16:32:42 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading

> Just how do those villages move? Grav villages? or maye walkers? What a
> thought! I'll have to look up a planet that mobile villages can fit on ;^)

Poul Anderson wrote a Dominic Flandry story set on a world where the natives
were technological nomads. "A Message In Secret"?  Something like that,
anyway.  

I've used the setting in Traveller games before. It's a good one.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1997 16:36:38 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: SDBs

>Bear in mind that the forces in FFW appears to have been "abbreviated".

That and FFW was published before MegaTraveller boosted the number of
starships in the Imperial Navy.  


I've always assumed that the SDB units in FFW are _large_ SDBs plus support
craft, or _really large_ squadrons.  Essentially something that can take on a
battleship, not the piddly 400-ton SDBs that terrorize players-turned-pirate.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:47:18 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!

*sigh*  Then again, maybe not.  :(

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

[snip]

> We know how the Imperium treats piracy. They patrol against pirates and even
> employ strike forces to replace governments that are found to support them.
> The discrepancy lies in how many ships they ought to have have available
> to do the job vs. how few ships they would have to be using in order _Not_
> to make piracy almost impossible.

O.K.  We know that you believe (from canon sources) that the Imperium can stamp
out piracy.  There is disagreement about that, but that is not what I am hoping
to achieve with this thread.

What would need to change to make piracy at the frontier a hazardous, but
potentially profitable, undertaking?  How would you set up a successful pirate?

Obviously some factors need to be taken into consideration.

Motivation - how to motivate the captain and crew to repeatedly raid shipping.
Security - Up to a point, risk can be dealt with.  Certain death will not be.
Facilities - the ship will need someplace to go to.  A free port?  A port
official that would be willing to look the other way for a sufficient donation?

To recap the purpose of _this_ thread:  To make it possible for a GM to
logically include piracy in a campaign.  To help determine the factors that need
to be modified or explained from canon sources, preferably without changing the
overall structure provided by Traveller.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:49:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

 
Re: Boys AT-Rifle recoil
 
My sense of it, having fired five rounds (one complete magazine), was that it was difficult, BUT, the hydropneumatic recoil cylinder and the monopod helped stabilize it.  Certainly the padding on the buttface was insufficient (but my shoulder appreciated it).
 
Hmmmm....I suspect that 6.38 is about right.  And it shot a little to the right at 200 yards, too. :)  (That is, until Col. Castonguay had it properly sighted in).
 
For anybody wondering, my opportunity to fire the Boys came about because my friend Col. Castonguay is a gunsmith, and has been methodically collecting smallarms used in the Russo-Finnish War ('39-'40), and the Continuation War ('41-'45).  Nothing automatic, but lots of other stuff.
 
Victor Raymond

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:04:12 -0500 (EST)
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives

In a message dated 97-10-27 16:53:42 EST, you write:

<< Although those books may not explicitly say so, there is an older rule
from
 Classic Traveller that no ship below 100 tons may have a jump drive.
 
 The same rule was broken by the Adventure entitled _Leviathan_ (13?) which
 had jump message torps (unmanned).  This whole concept has been the source
 of much debate here on this list in the past.
  >>


I remember this rule from CT, also, but don't remember any specific reasoning
(if any was even given).  HOWEVER, my thought would be that take a 100 ton
ship, fill it with the required jump drive space, maneuver drive (probably,
even if only 1G), and fuel to accomodate both, and there wouldn't be enough
room left to keep a person or more likely a team of people comfortable for a
week straight, especially if it happened regularly. (I won't jump to the
"dementia" thread on watching jump space for a week...)

That would allow these jump message torps, since there'd be no people
involved and you could pack systems in to the limit.  It also corresponds
nicely with the transition that heppens from "comfy seats" for a couple day
interplanetary trip to "cabins or low berths required" for any interstellar
trip.  

This makes sense to me simply when I imagine the difficulty of trying to sit
and work in cramped quarters for any real length of time, even though it be
with friends.  Certainly it HAS been done by many men and women astronauts
from a variety of nations, but I bet most people wouldn't find the actual
conditions all that appealling.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:27:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, douglas wrote:


> Knight (Administers a World or Industrial Sector)
> 
> The knight serves as the first line of the Imperial Nobility.  Usually a award
> for service to the Empire.  This accolade cannot be passed to your children,
> though it is not uncommon, once a family has achieved this social level, for the
> children of a knight to also be knighted (usually for a far less demanding
> achievement that the original gift...)
> 
> Knights, when awarded a fiefdom along with their title, will assume
> administrative control (and recieve payment from) a backwater world or an
> industrial sector of a more prosperous world or system.  They are responsible to
> a Baron who they will pledge fealty to.
> 

I think there will be two, possibly three classes of Knights. If a Knight
is awarded a fiefdom, then almost certainly the title (and the fief) would
be hereditary, if not the advancement to the noble class is severely
restricted, and there will be unrest. 

There will be 'Honor' nobles, much like knights in the UK
today, awarded non-inheritable titles for their lifetimes, with no fiefdom
attached. These are what you're describing.

Thirdly (as I recall form Traveller canon) there's a third class of
nobles, the so-called 'administrative' nobles, typically civil servants
given the rank of knight to fit them into the command structure. These
titles last for the duration of their careers. They may be awarded an
honor patent when they retire, or there may be some title like 'Knight
Administrative, (ret)' that they get to keep.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:43:10 -0600
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>I'm having fun guessing who on this list has had experience with LSD.
>Trust me.  If it looks real enough, it will affect your mind.

Actually, it is the other way around. LSD affects your mind, making you see
things that look real. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:50:41 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:07:31 -0600
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

How about doing a Model 5 (the 'Jungle Carbine').  I'd like to see the
recoil numbers for that.  I already know what it feels like.  Of course,
that buttpad I have on there is just to place it well for aiming,
nothing to do with recoil ;-).  I'll get the measurement if you need
them.

> Feed:                   5-round box

I thought this was 10-round?

> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 
Matt McLaughlin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2023
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2024



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy - the new era :)
Re: Small ships with jump drives [LONGish]
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)
Jump minimum Dt
Re: Small ships with jump drives [LONGish]
Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2
Re: CSC Porting
Re: CSC Porting
re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
What else?
Re: Piracy - the new era :)
Re: Small ships with jump drives
Re: Small ships with jump drives
Re: Jumpspace dementia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:40:39 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)

Phil Kitching wrote:

> A related question is:
>
>        "Why doesn't the pirate crew just sell off their own ship
>         and retire on the profits?"
>
> It can't be the bank payments, because if the pirates can't skip their
> payments and sell off their ship then how could they find a market for
> stuff that they steal?
>

I've always liked to use some of these plot devices:1) Ship supplied by a
*unnamed* corporation - they wish the PCs to prey on one of their competitors
[either a direct competitor in shipping, or the shipping lines supplying their
competitor], but not so exclusively that the finger points at them.  Another
ploy is to make using free traders unreliable enough to shift some more trade to
the major shipping lines.
2) An *unnamed* stellar government supplies the ship and a list of planets to
hit - purpose is to draw off system coverage from a planet (not on the list) so
that some covert insertion can be made (this is unknown to the PCs).
3) PC is a noble with some rather large debts to clear - or his family will lose
their home and their titles.
4) PC is scion of a merchant house desparate for money to support it's
operations (just until the economy turns around).
5) PC is a member of a rebellious anti-Imperial element on a planet - ship is a
way to supply money for their cause and strike against the Imperium.

> But then where does the pirate ship come from?
>
> Borrowing 30-300MCr from any bank wanting to stay in business is going to
> require good security and a sound business plan - so what is the business
> plan of a pirate?

Ship transport and tender (armed) - specializing in repair, recovery and
restoration of acive and retired Scout Service Type 'S' vehicles.  Hot LZ
recoveries a specialty!  Imperial Salvage bond pending. Crew certifications and
resumes available upon request.

[snip]

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:46:07 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives [LONGish]

> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:06:15 +0000
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives
> 
> >I wonder ...
> >
> >Can a ship smaller than 100 tons have a jump engine ?
> >
> >I use T4 and Starships. While designing ships, I realized that there are no
> >figures for jumpdrives for smaller ships. Why ?
> 
> Those who want smaller J-drives go ahead and use them but be warned that
> they might wreac havoc on the underlying assumtions about the Imperium.
> As FF&S2 went back to the old 10% x Jn fuel requirements for jumps perhaps
> we could add this arbitrary rule:
> Jump fuel requirements are: 10% x Jn but always at least 10dTon x Jn.
> This allows you the ability to make smaller jumpships but at a MUCH higher
> cost in fuel percentage.
> 

This is simple and elegant, but allows 'jump torpedos' to get around it
by using drop tanks, assuming you allow them ;-).  I wasn't here when
this was previously (as I'm sure it was) beaten into the ground, but I'd
like to throw out a potentially useful handwave  on the topic.  It's
turned out a little longer than I hoped, but hopefully it'll be useful. 
Criticism welcome.


[STARSHIP MINIMUM SIZE LIMITATIONS]
Although the phenomena known as 'Jump' is still imperfectly understood
by Imperium scientists, certain limitations of it's application have
been determined.  One of these is the minimum size of a ship which can
be reliably sent through jump.

It appears that the jump space envelope surrounding a ship requires a
minimum amount of mass (or volume of material? [ed]) to 'anchor' itself
to in order to be stable.  This size is on the order of 100 displacement
ton, and is the reason for the commonly accepted minimum size for
starships.  The stability of the envelope deteriorates rapidly as the
size of the ship decreases.  It has been theorized that the minimum size
is necessary to overcome the mass effects of interstellar dust on the
jump fields.  The cost of performing a statistically significant number
of experiments has, to date, precluded testing of this hypothesis.

Reports from survivors of experiments with smaller jump-capable ships
indicate that, over time, instabilities develop in the jump envelope. 
These instabilities appear to increase in magnitude in an oscilliatory
nature with time, resulting in the jump envelope intersecting with and
destroying parts of the vessel.  Substantial psychic disturbances have
also been noted among survivors.

[Game Application]
I envisioned the chance of misjump going up as the square of
(100-size).  This has the advantage of making the risk comensurate with
the relative advantage.  I came up with three potential ways of
incorporating it, each a little farther from strictly following this
relationship.  

For simplicity, I define a Size Defficiency number (SD) of (100-size)/10
[rounded up], with size in displacement tons.  So, for a ship of 90-99
dt, SD=1 and for a ship of 40-49 dt, SD=6.

1) This scheme requires a size misjump roll independant of the standard
misjump roll.  This is a percentage roll, where the percentage chance of
misjump is SD squared.  Thus, a 45 td ship (SD=6) always has a 36%
chance of misjumping, independant of drive/maintanence/fuel factors.

2) The second scheme roughly converts the above percentages into a 2D6
roll as a modifier to the standard misjump roll.  This assumes a base
zero chance of misjump.  While non-canon, it makes life a little easier
for me. 
If the ship's size is less that the value in the left hand column, the
value in the right hand column is added to the misjump DM (making
misjump more likely). Note that these are _not_ cumulative.
SIZE 	DM
- ----	--
100-	 1
 83-	 2
 71-	 3
 59-	 4
 47-	 5
 35-	 6
 24-	 7
 15- 	 8
  9-	 9
  4-	10
  2-	11

3) This is the simplest, and the one I'll probably use.  I simply use
the SD defined above as a DM on the misjump roll.  It's close enough for
all practical purposes, and makes life easier.

> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se

Matt McLaughlin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:56:23 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:52:46 -0700
> From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
> Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
> 
> >
> >       Any comments from the more firearms-savvy list members?  If
> >somebody knows how much the Boys weighed it'd be just fantastic; I could
> >then get a better value for the recoil.
> >
> >
> From:The World Almanac Of World War Two.
> Page:373 Infantry Antitank Weapons
> 
> The British army began World War II equipped with an antitank
> rifle dating from 1934. This was the Boys, which had beenknow
> as the Stanchion, but received the name of one of the development
> team who died before it was completed.
8><---> 

Interestingly, it was also procured by the USMC for their Raider
battalions when they were first formed during WWII.  On at least one
occasion, it was used to shoot down a Japanese float plane which was
attempting to resupply a garrison.

Just a bit of random trivia I ran across a few weeks ago.

Matt McLaughlin

> http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
> The One and Only FIREBASE Games Page!
> And 
> Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
> http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:11:17 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)

> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 
> 
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:42:01 +0800
> From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
> 
> >
> >Fealty is always (with the exception of Oaths to the  Emperor) sworn to the
> >office, not to the person filling it.  There are provisions for personal oaths,
> >but they are not part of the office.  Fealty flows upward from one level to the
> >next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons
> >administering a system, neither will swear to each other, only to the Duke
> above
> >them.)
> 
> Interesting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
> personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
> Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and most
> commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. The reason behind this
> is presumably that all institutions require to have their requirements
> interpreted.  An oath to say serve and protect the Democratic Republic of
> Kafiristan means nothing unless you know who speaks for it and decides what
> ought to be done.  One solution is to presume it is simply lawful commands
8><---------------
American tradition is a bit different.  
[Approximate quote] 'I swear (or affirm) to uphold and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic, to bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and to obey the
orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed
over me.'  Followed by yada yada about taking this obligation under free
will with no coercion blah blah blah.  This is the enlistment oath.  I
think the officers' is basically the same, but leaves out the bit about
'officers appointed over me'.

I'm not an expert on it, but I suspect the whole oath to a person thing
was dropped in favor of an oath to an ideal, or the institutional
representation of that ideal (the constitution). The whole theory of
co-government of equals by equals makes it difficult to support the idea
of an oath of fealty to an individual.

As far as Travller is concerned, I suspect that the British model is
much closer.  It seems to me that ties to persons can cross ideological
boundaries that institutions would find prohibitive.

> Colin

Matt McLaughlin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:58:51 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Jump minimum Dt

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:06:15 +0000
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives
...
>>Can a ship smaller than 100 tons have a jump engine ?
...
>Those who want smaller J-drives go ahead and use them but be warned that
>they might wreac havoc on the underlying assumtions about the Imperium.
>we could add this arbitrary rule:
>Jump fuel requirements are: 10% x Jn but always at least 10dTon x Jn.
>This allows you the ability to make smaller jumpships but at a MUCH higher
>cost in fuel percentage.

Hello,
  CT players can also get about the same effect by requiring small
craft with Jump to have a Starship-type bridge - which means a minimum
of 20 Dt bridge. That really ups the minimum size. Or you can fiddle
LHyd requirements as (Dt)[root(Dt/100)], or ~3Dt at 10Dt.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:48:35 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives [LONGish]

One thing I did in my campaign to retain the general 100dt jump limit and
yet still have "Jump Torpedoes" as canon (though rare) was to create a
stability threshold at TL16; Jump drives at TL15 or lower become unstable
at less than 100dt, while at TL16+ they become unstable at less than 10dt.
At least then there was some reason for all of the excitement and
hullabaloo over TL16 technology; the design charts from all of the various
Traveller incarnations made TL16 fairly boring and non-exciting.

This way, Jump Torpedoes would only be possible if you used TL16 Jump Drive
components, which would be hard to come by in 1105-1115, but at least would
be possible to find, and would become more common as time progressed.

At about TL20, the threshold drops to 1dt, which was the effective minimum.
After that, Grandfather is putting up Jump Gates and pocket universes
anyway, so it all becomes somewhat less important.

However, I do like the "stability breakdown" effect you've postulated here.
I think I might include that along with the 10dt threshold, and even once
you get past the TL16 threshold the DMs would still apply for hulls of less
than 10dt (by using a formula like DM = Hull Size - 10 or something
similar).

Matt McLaughlin (mkm@umr.edu) said:
> ... I'd like to throw out a potentially useful handwave  on the topic.
> It's turned out a little longer than I hoped, but hopefully it'll be
> useful. Criticism welcome.
>
> <SNIP of neat stuff>

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:11:53 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

Personal request -

Does anyone have or know where I could get either -

a worldbuilders program (either DOS or Windows 3 or 95)

or a spreadsheet in Lotus 123 format - I've had real problems translating
excel files..

Thanx,

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:11:51 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

In a message dated 28/10/97 05:25:55 GMT, you write:

<< nteresting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
 personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
 Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and most
 commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. >>

I totally agree - as an police officer, my oath was to Queen and Country in
that order. Surely all oaths would be to the Emperor, the Imperium and his
chosen representatives.. Wasn't there a write up of titles in MT
Encyclopedia? Dukes were both Sector and SubSector titles etc..

That's the reference I still use..

Jae

______________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:11:53 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: The unsuppressed pirate, part 2

Looks like there possibly will be an "Piracies" Sourcebook in the 
Traveller Line?

I for one would love to see a definitive book or data file (whether I'd agree
with it or not) as I've sort of lost the thread on this one.. It could really
do with someone (and no I am not volunteering) putting the whole thing
together - I'd vote for Piracy existing if only because it would be better
for playing..

For the record the Keith Bros. did a book on privateering and piracy several
years ago (I remember someone telling me about an early draft they had seen)
but it was never published -  are they on the wire??

Anyway if anyone fancies putting the best of the thread together as a
composite I for one would be very interested..

Go for it!

Jae

_____________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:37:28 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:15:32 -0600, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 	Hey Doug, Can I be an example in ACQ?   Of something really
> atrocious?  And come to a really horrible, sticky, and unpleasant end,
> preferably all over the ceiling?

Consider yourself splattered, sliced 'n diced, deep-fat fried, reduced to
your subatomic components, etc.  Getting your remains to interact with the
ceiling might be a bit tricky, however.

Anyone else?



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:37:22 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:10:22 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 02:02 PM 10/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
> 
> >I might just be persuaded to do that.  Or possibly even to Java.  How much am
> >I offered?
> >
> >Seriously, I'm currently not working, and have more time on my hands than
> >money to spend.  (Amazing what a lack of marking does to your spare time!)
>  >I can borrow a PC laptop with CodeWarrior, so might be enticed into
> >converting the code...
> 
> PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!!!!!!!
> 
> If you do it, James and I won't use you as an example in the At Close
> Quarters....

We won't?  Oh, I getcha!  (wink, wink!)



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:42:44 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> >[nice article on NMR and traveller-style description of NMR imaging]

Thanks!

> It's interesting to try and think of some other medical imaging technologies
> that might come into play at high tech levels. Possibly damper-style 
> manipulation of the strong force could be used for a nuclear scanner - 

Certainly, dampers could be used to help amplify EM fields are the 
source or somesuch, increasing the accuracy of the entire imaging
system without having to make the magnets or sensor any better.
Alternately, you might be able to get away with fairly small magnetic 
fields, which is the holy grail of MRI system designers.

One thing you might be able to do is to get bigger atoms to start 
moving around so you could see stuff other than just hydrogen. Nitrogen
might me a good candidate for imaging protien-based stuff.

> either to induce mild radioactivity in specific normally-stable isotopes 
> to locate them in the body (like a PET scanner, which uses positron-emitting
> decay in some radioisotope who's name escapes me, but without the requirement
> for injecting the positron-emitter) 

The problem with that is that the stuff they inject in you gets
pumped around and what you're trying to track is where stuff is getting
pumped to... if everything emits positrons then it's not much good. 

Of course, that's not to say that you couldn't do something else
interesting with the effect. Again, you might use it to image
nitrogen instead of hydrogen, since nitrogen is actually big enough
to break down (unlike hydrogen).

> or through resonances in the strong force
> itself (conservation of energy implies that how much power damping/augmenting
> the nuclear force requies is a function of what material is used...) 

Yeah. Since this whole strong/weak force manipulation thing is all
handwaving anyways, who's to say that you can't set of oscillating
strong fields in order to induce another field, just like NMR does
with EM fields. Maybe strong/weak force manipulation could be used 
for non-invasive surgery. (and the tumour goes... *poof*)

> Then there are neural activity scanners, which are currently pretty
> ill-defined; and maybe there would be a roll for grav scanners in medical
> applications, if they're precise enough, to chart out interior density/
> composition.

I dunno if you'd need grav sensors - you can get pretty good density 
estimates from NMR due to the fact that the human body is constructed
in a pretty limited way. Xeno-medical sensors might benefit from 
densimometer (??) tech, as aliens may have different amounts of water
in their tissue, their bones will be different, etc.

As for the mysterious NAS, I always assumed it was some ultra-precise
EM scanner that picked up "Alpha waves" or somesuch.  My other guess
was that NAS relies on a psionic effect, which I would explain,
but my shoulder muscles are starting to cramp up.

What I though was really cool about the article wasn't so much the
MRI stuff, but the NMR spectroscopy. They had a picture of a graph
showing the amount of Glycine, Cysteine and Arginine (amino acids I
think) in a 20 nL sample. 20nL!!! I'll shed more than 20 nL of
skin cells just writing this email! And not only are the samples small,
but they can put the sensors on ICs!!! Pocket mass spectrographs 
could be very, very real - just don't call them Tricorders. :)

Thanks for the comments Bruce,
Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:55:22 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: What else?

>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:34:40 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Humour
...
>If they can spare the time, the easiest entry is to use a combo of a
>personal re-entry kit and some fast drug. You dump the guy into a
>trajectory that'll look like a natural meteoroid. The fast drug makes
...
>You use the ship to mask the launch of the re-entry pod. It won't need
>much thrust, so it should be fairly easy to screen the small rocket
>from the planetary sensors. Especially for a TL7-8 world.

Hello,
  I knew he could come up with a good solution. Now that a good,
workable idea has been provided, can anyone think of unworkable,
twisted approaches?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:55:30 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:50:46 +0000
>From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)
...
>But then where does the pirate ship come from?
>
>Borrowing 30-300MCr from any bank wanting to stay in business is going to
>require good security and a sound business plan - so what is the business
>plan of a pirate?
....
>#5
>Pirate or customs inspection?
>A mercenary cruiser or a couple of armed merchants could easily be at a
>planet with a merc team for a (planetary) government backed mission.
>
>Part of the mission could include trade inspections. If the ship has the
>correct paperwork to prove that it is acting on behalf of the recognised
>government then even an complete batron of Tigresses might not have the
>jurisdiction to interceed (although they might encourage PC compliance:)
>
>If the world is low tech or balkanised, the true position of the "pirate"
>might not be clear...

Hello,
  This one hasn't been touched on, IIRC, and has great adventure/merc
campaign potential, esp. if you have Broadsword. What would the 3I be
obliged or inclined to do if a world started impounding/seizing small
independent vessels? Obviously that traffic would dry up, but what
might be done about ones already nabbed (if anything).

>Phil Kitching

[INI op: "another one just delurked, sir"]
  ["put his ID out, and we'll get him later"]  :)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:16:21 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives

> ate: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:04:12 -0500 (EST)
> From: TDRandall@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-27 16:53:42 EST, you write:
> 
8><----
> That would allow these jump message torps, since there'd be no people
> involved and you could pack systems in to the limit.  It also corresponds
> nicely with the transition that heppens from "comfy seats" for a couple day
> interplanetary trip to "cabins or low berths required" for any interstellar
> trip.  
> 
> This makes sense to me simply when I imagine the difficulty of trying to sit
> and work in cramped quarters for any real length of time, even though it be
> with friends.  Certainly it HAS been done by many men and women astronauts
> from a variety of nations, but I bet most people wouldn't find the actual
> conditions all that appealling.
> 
Yes, but I contend that 'most people' aren't Travellers any more than
'most people' are astronauts or submariners.  The costs of making such a
hostile environment surviveable are largely related to volume.  As long
as there are enough people available willing/able to perform in such
cramped quarters, there's no need to meet the conditions of comfort that
most people would require.

This interests me because, as an ex-sub sailor, I enjoy playing with
designs which pack the most capability in the smallest package, and
reducing crew space is a significant factor in this.

Matt McLaughlin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:11:09 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Small ships with jump drives

>
   
   Hi.
   
> From: TDRandall@aol.com
   
> In a message dated 97-10-27 16:53:42 EST, you write:
> << Although those books may not explicitly say so, there is an older rule
> from
>  Classic Traveller that no ship below 100 tons may have a jump drive.
>  The same rule was broken by the Adventure entitled _Leviathan_ (13?) which
>  had jump message torps (unmanned).  This whole concept has been the source
>  of much debate here on this list in the past.
>   >>
   
   Actually, I don't think that there was any hard rule that no starship
   below 100 tons is allowed.  The disclaimer was that these starship
   design sequences only work for ships 100-5000 tons (Book 2) or
   100-1,000,000 tons (Book 5).
   
> I remember this rule from CT, also, but don't remember any specific reasoning
> (if any was even given).  
   [snip]
   
   None was given, so I made my own rules for designing `starboats' which work
   very well with canon.  (This is not to say that other rules are not
   possible that agree equally well with canon.)
   
   RATIONALE:  There is a limit to the minimum size you can make a lanthanum
   jump coil.  Beyond this minimum, the flux of j-space through the coil
   causes it to heat up beyond the melting point, and your j-drive breaks
   down and needs to be rebuilt.
   
   SHIP DESIGN: The j-drive size, cost, and energy use for j-boats are
   the same as those for 100-ton ships.  So just design your boat like
   any other small craft (using HG rules), but instead of the j-drive
   formulae, just use the following table:
   
   	Jump   Size    Cost    EP
   	1      2 tons  MCr 4   1
   	2      3 tons  MCr 6   2
   	3      4 tons  MCr 8   3
   	4      5 tons  MCr 10  4
           5      6 tons  MCr 12  5
           6      7 tons  MCr 14  6
   
   (I don't have my books here, so I may misremember the costs.)  Keep in
   mind the computer and power-plant requirents make 50-ton j-6 boats
   very hard to build.
   
   J-TORPS: J-torps violate the minimum drive size, and so their drives
   are destroyed during jump.  This means that their chances of misjump
   are higher than normal, and that their drives need to be replaced
   after each jump.  The cost of replacing the slagged drive with a
   rebuilt one runs from many hundred-thousands of credits for a j-1, to
   several million for a j-6.  The computers that navigate the j-torps
   through j-space are very small, low-power versions of the big analog
   computers than navigate starships and are very hard to build; they
   cost 50% /more/ than the standard starship computers, and make up most of
   the cost of the j-torp.  Fortunately, they do not need to be replaced
   after each jump (unless, of course, the j-torp misjumps).
   
   These rules have served me well.  They keep miniature jump vessels
   an exotic though doable technology.  They can add some cool gimmicks to
   a game without unbalancing the campaign.  Maybe they can help out your
   campaign too.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:42:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:51:50 -0800
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> At 03:48 PM 10/28/97 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Remember the Graphics of the dutch drafter Maurits Cornelis Escher?
> >The twisted "Belvedere" is a classic example of a building that cannot be 
> >built in three dimensions. Looking at this Graphic is quite fascinating, 
> >but does it drive you crazy? It didn't so to me (I do hope that), and I 
> >got this one as a jigsaw puzzle in 1000 pieces!
> 
> Escher is one of my favorites, but remember, when you look at his prints,
> you are looking at a 2-d image of a 4-d event.

But also remember that to a good first approximation, 2-d is all you ever
see.  Your brain is wired to do 'sensor fusion' on the binocular input
from your eyes, and derive a 3-d picture, but the basic underlying data is
a 2-d distribution of photons on your retinas.

> >So, even if one could see a fourdimensional thing (or its 3D shadow), for 
> >me that would not be enough to become insane.
> 
> I'm having fun guessing who on this list has had experience with LSD.
> Trust me.  If it looks real enough, it will affect your mind.  

Douglas, you have that backwards!  "If it has affected your mind, it will
look real enough."  *That* sums up LSD.  In other words, back on topic, I
can't imagine any (likely) purely visual effects of looking at jumpspace
causing insanity; rather, it'd have to mess with your mind directly, with
the visual stuff being a side effect.

Note that my use of 'likely' up there is meant to cover the possibility
that jumpspace looks like (say) your loved ones being tortured non-stop
for a week, or stuff like that, which *might* drive you crazy.  However,
to look like that, it'd need to 'know' what would freak you out, and we're
back to the direct mental interaction model.

In short, while Niven-style weird-looking jumpspace is a cool concept, I
don't buy it.  IMTU, look out a port in jump and you'll see a very faint
blue glow flickering over absolute blackness.

The only time you have a problem is if the jump field goes wonky (as in a
misjump or equipment failure), in which case you get physical interactions
with 'normal' mass/ernergy as j-space intrudes into the ship...but that's
a *very* different question!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2024
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2025



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)
More on putting messages in DNA
Re: Money
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)
Sylean Orbital Licensing Requirements
Re: CSC Porting
Re: What else?
New CSC Features
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:47:44 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

If you are just tuning in, I previously stated that I considered the
existence of a separate, and distinct, list within the list (Traveller
Mailing List [TML]) called the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  I had
said that this "other" TML is a dissident minority and that it was sad
that nothing could be done about it.


On Sun Oct 19 09:26:13 1997
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> writes:
>
>"I have too much of a spine to flame the works of someone I do not know".
                                                             ^^^^^^
>
>I find that to be a very interesting statement, Leroy.


BTW, I must have typed too fast if that is what I posted.  It should
have been "someone I know".  Now, some quick comments.
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Craig Berry, at your request, I "took the discussion offlist", but you
didn't seem to want to discuss it at that point, or at least I got no
reply from the note I sent you.  So, back I am, Sam I am.

Andrew Boulton, just remember that _you_ posed the first set of questions
and demanded I answer them, and I answered.

Now, in exactly the form that I had predicted, you launch more questions,
because you are not satisfied with your first questions.  It is like I said
before, you get a tire count, and you're not happy with that, then you want
tire _pressure_.  Simply--you won't be happy with it, _no_ matter _what_ it
_does_ contain.  I'm even skeptical that you had seen a copy at the time
you wrote what you did.

So, now that midterms are over, I'll start with the one reply that was
worthy of an answer.


Ethan, regarding the above...

I just call it social.  Afterall, we are talking about a game, not
something that the masses will rebuild civilisation from after the
fall.  Had the feedback been solicited, then that would be a different
matter, and then more diplomacy could be used than what I have seen
on the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  Since it was _unsolicited_,
In call it lack of spine.  It is that simple.

Frankly, the whole TML would be better off if there were less gossip
and flaming of the game.

To make mountains out of mole-hills is how I see the chatter about
IG's product on part of this list.  It reminds me of the time that
it was declared here that (I paraphrase) "Marc had killed off a
major race, and what was he going to do about it?"  Hogwash!


>Perhaps you should start calling up English and Literary Criticism 
>departments at universities around the world to give them your opinion.
>I'm sure they'll be quite interested in the fact that literary criticism
>is essentially the work of men and women without "too much of a spine".


No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.

It is frequently solicited as well.  With a game, sales is the
solicitation.


>When people post their reviews of products like EV, they're reviewing 
>the product, not the author. If I said that I didn't like EV, or, 
>let's say, if you said there were faults in the Skyraiders trilogy, 


Good point, and thanks for bringing it up.  But with some people, I
don't think that applies.


>then we'd be making comments about a written piece of work, not about 
>the relative human worthiness of the products' respective authors.


The only reason I brought up the Skyraiders trilogy was because Doug
seemed (to me) to be holding up the flawed past as unflawed, and using
it as an excuse for his pointing out flaws of current product.

I really don't believe that is so difficult to gather from my post, but
I am willing to consider that the point was not conveyed as well as it
could have been.


>By extension, if I, or anyone else, thinks that your review stinks, then
>we are free to review the review and say what we like about it. I have
>no idea why you think that any sort of review is a personal attack on 
>the author.


"Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
balanced.  Since you bring it up, I was reviewing the informal reviews
of the Traveller Maligning List (TML) as unbalanced and maligning, so
we are in this circle you see.


>Quite simply, you have to be trolling. Your statement goes so much 
>against the way that reviewers of any sort work that it can't possibly
>be anything else.


I've already stated that I feel that there is no balance, supported by
reading some of the TML posts, and don't feel obliged to address any
perceived drawbacks, especially when I perceive *NONE*.  Of course, if
you'd like to compose my reviews, I'll have to disappoint you.


>It's like having me post that I think that real 
>men realize that finite element solutions to mechanical engineering
>problems are inheritently flawed and that those who avoid closed-form
>analytical solutions are without a spine. It's just so deeply wrong!


Well, that would depend upon the size of "h".  No, it is not an issue
that I might be without spine for preferring Newton's method in "n"
dimensions solving the gradient elements of the jacobian for a non-
finite solution.  Having said that, the finite solution is good if it
meets your tolerance criteria.  That is what is important.  Anything
else is wasted cycles.  On the other hand, if you need more precision,
then my "spineless" gaussian elimination might be the only way. :)

However, to flame the game, is an issue of spine when you tell Loren
what you thought of TNE (No matter how right you are) because after all,
it _is_ a game.  We have lost sight of the fact that we derive hours
of enjoyment from this game.  This all reminds me of sportsfans.


>Honestly Leroy, what do you study in school?


Honestly Ethan, I see that of _little_ relevance for this discussion.

Also, if this is going (errantly) the way it did with Dave Golden this
summer, improperly constructed views of my person don't account for a
student that is 41 and has played Traveller nearly half his life.

I am trying to decide whether to just apply as a Master's candidate, or
go for a straight-through PhD program, in Computer Science and Engineering.
Significant choices for a significant lifestyle. :)

Thank you for at least making an attempt to understand my posts.  I admit
that I don't always communicate effectively, but e-mail can effect that
as well. (Personally, I think it is all that IP packet switching. :)


>Ethan Henry
>

As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

As for continuing the discussion of the issues of Traveller Maligning with
some of you, I'll be happy to if it is worthy of a response, but I am
starting to get complaints that I have not worked on my web page since May
(just before "learning" the whole TML experience).

Don't expect line-by-line opinions from me--that is for people who can't
stand having their opinions challenged, and a particularly bad habit that
is easy to get in with e-mail commo.  (I only did it here because it was
all worth commenting on to explain something I said from over a week ago.)


Leroy


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:07:44 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> I think there will be two, possibly three classes of Knights. If a Knight
> is awarded a fiefdom, then almost certainly the title (and the fief) would
> be hereditary, if not the advancement to the noble class is severely
> restricted, and there will be unrest.
>
> There will be 'Honor' nobles, much like knights in the UK
> today, awarded non-inheritable titles for their lifetimes, with no fiefdom
> attached. These are what you're describing.
>
> Thirdly (as I recall form Traveller canon) there's a third class of
> nobles, the so-called 'administrative' nobles, typically civil servants
> given the rank of knight to fit them into the command structure. These
> titles last for the duration of their careers. They may be awarded an
> honor patent when they retire, or there may be some title like 'Knight
> Administrative, (ret)' that they get to keep.
>

So, even though all people with the the ranks them as a Knight are referred to as
'Sir', there are specific titles for the various levels.  How about this:

Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight of Arizona (hereditary title with fiefdom)
Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight (hereditary title without a fiefdom)
Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight (nonhereditary title)
Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight for the venerable Arizona University (Administrative
Knight, including the institution where title is derived from)

Would this be correct?

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:11:26 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)

> > Interesting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
> > personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
> > Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and most
> > commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. The reason behind this
> > is presumably that all institutions require to have their requirements
> > interpreted.  An oath to say serve and protect the Democratic Republic of
> > Kafiristan means nothing unless you know who speaks for it and decides what
> > ought to be done.  One solution is to presume it is simply lawful commands
> 8><---------------
> American tradition is a bit different.
> [Approximate quote] 'I swear (or affirm) to uphold and defend the
> Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
> domestic, to bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and to obey the
> orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed
> over me.'  Followed by yada yada about taking this obligation under free
> will with no coercion blah blah blah.  This is the enlistment oath.  I
> think the officers' is basically the same, but leaves out the bit about
> 'officers appointed over me'.
>
> I'm not an expert on it, but I suspect the whole oath to a person thing
> was dropped in favor of an oath to an ideal, or the institutional
> representation of that ideal (the constitution). The whole theory of
> co-government of equals by equals makes it difficult to support the idea
> of an oath of fealty to an individual.
>
> As far as Travller is concerned, I suspect that the British model is
> much closer.  It seems to me that ties to persons can cross ideological
> boundaries that institutions would find prohibitive.
>
> > Colin
>
> Matt McLaughlin

I never really thought about it [blush], but swearing to an office may be an American
tradition.

oops.

Barring tradition, do we want to have forces sworn to a single person, or to uphold
the office?  In light of the Rebellion to come, swearing to the person may be more in
line with canon.

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:10:33 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: More on putting messages in DNA

Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:02:29 +0000 Timothy Collinson wrote:
 
> Many thanks Mark for the fun had this weekend cracking your DNA code.  If
> it's any help I got a good buzz from finally seeing the message appear.
> 
> And just to show off....
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
> CTCCGACGACCAGCACCGATGGCACTCGAACGAGCACACCGACTGCGT
> CTAGCAAGGCCTATCGCAATCATGATTCAGCCTCAGCTCATGCCCGAG
> GCACCTATGATGATCCTAGCACTCGCAGCAAGTATGGCAGAACGACGT
> CCAATGATCGCACAGCCTCTCCGAGCACCGGAGGCACCTATGGACCTC
> GCAAGGATCCTTATGCCTCTCCTGCGTATGGCCATACACATGATGCGT
> CTAGCACTCCAGCCGCGACTCCACGAGGCAAAGACTGCCAACAAAGCA
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

You're welcome. Sounds good that you want to use it - I was hoping someone
could use it in their own campaign. I thought that this was a good way to
bring some good old fashioned puzzle solving into a Traveller adventure.

Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:03:36 -0500 (EST) Scott Quigg wrote:

>This is an RNA sequence the poly adenylated tail is a dead give
away!!!!!!!!

Well, the whole idea was to make it as easy to decode as possible in the
first place. If you read my original post, you will see that it was the
_hiding place_ that needed to be inaccessible, if you didn't know where to
look. The noble NPC in my campaign did everything he could to make the DNA*
easy to decode - as easy as possible when you've only got four characters.
He actually went so far as supplying the entire alphabet and the 'poly
adenylated tail' to make the message stand out from the 'garbage', as well
as some repeating triplets to indicate that the message was to be decoded
in triplets. The code was quite interesting to construct in the first
place, because I had to give as many hints as possible in a _very_ basic
language. Sort of like the same problems you face at first contact.

* We're talking DNA here, because DNA contains Adenine, Cytocine, Guanine
and Thymine whereas in RNA the Thymine is replaced by Uracil (Molecular
Biology of the Cell, 2nd Edition, Albert et al. Garland Publishing,
Inc.1989, p. 101). Well, my girlfriend, who's a medical student, was
heavily involved in developing the message-in-a-DNA-string concept :-)

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:40:27 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Money

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

> The tech is still valuable, even more so on low-tech worlds. Imagine what
> TL12 luxury items could buy you on a TL7 world for example. If you are going
> to a world of even lower tech level, like 0 or 1, a few cigarette lighters
> can do wonders, while costing you virtually nothing.
>
> I have another question concerning money in Traveller:

There is a chart somewhere that details the tech level differences in items.  I'm
not sure where it is, but I've come up with an off the cuff way of dealing with
player purchases,

find a specific  item, success on an easy streetwise roll.
(assuming the item is not restricted (i.e. Legal) and is produced _at_ this TL)
For each TL difference - increase the difficulty by 1 level
For each Law Level factor - increase the difficulty by 1 level

Base price is the price found in the book.  Base TL is the TL the item is produced
at.  (I actually assign a range of TLs that an item may be produced at)
If the TL of the location is higher than the base TL: reduce the price by 10% per
TL difference.
(i.e. a TL 7 widget sold on a TL 9 world would have a base price of 80%)
If the TL of the location is less than the base TL: increase by half the price for
each TL difference.
(i.e. a TL 9 widget sold on a TL 8 world would have a base price of 150%, on a TL
7 world it would have a base price of 200%)
if the item is restricted by LL, increase by half the base price for each level of
Law it violates

I always cut the price of used items in half.  (But I may add some interesting
feature to them at the same time...)

Finally, use the actual value table to figure the asking price for the player.


- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:34:18 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

Craig Berry wrote:
> > 
> > I'm having fun guessing who on this list has had experience with LSD.

Hm. Not me at any rate, though people have told me that I should try it.

> > Trust me.  If it looks real enough, it will affect your mind.  
> 
> Douglas, you have that backwards!  "If it has affected your mind, it will
> look real enough."  *That* sums up LSD.  In other words, back on topic, I
> can't imagine any (likely) purely visual effects of looking at jumpspace
> causing insanity; rather, it'd have to mess with your mind directly, with
> the visual stuff being a side effect.

Yes. I'll get back to this.

> In short, while Niven-style weird-looking jumpspace is a cool concept, I
> don't buy it.  IMTU, look out a port in jump and you'll see a very faint
> blue glow flickering over absolute blackness.

Ok, like, how many times do I have to mention this: Niven's hyperspace
doesn't look like _anything_. You have an open window, you go into
hyperspace, and the entire wall warps so that the window disappears.
In Niven's universe, that makes some people nauseous. But there is no
"look" to Niven's hyperspace. It is the "un-look".

> The only time you have a problem is if the jump field goes wonky (as in a
> misjump or equipment failure), in which case you get physical interactions
> with 'normal' mass/ernergy as j-space intrudes into the ship...but that's
> a *very* different question!

Ah-ha! Yes, we have examples in canon where jumpspace makes people
"sick". There are also examples scattered here and there are cargos
that don't handle jumpsace well and may break down, or can't be carried
in a ship going more than jump-1. 

So, in canon, there are plenty of examples of items being _physically_
affected by being in a ship in jump, even when everything is normal.
If the jump buble breaks down, things can be fatal. But even way before
they get to the fatal point, jumpspace can affect stuff. Stuff like...
your mind! (Aaaaaaaiieeeee!!!) And...

  "If it has affected your mind, it will look real enough."

It reminds me of a sci-fi story (maybe it was a novel even) where,
one day, suddenly, the speed of light changed. It want up by some
fraction of a percent. Scientist figured that the Earth had been in
a "slow" region of space. Entering the "slow" region had killed
the dinosaurs, as suddenly all chemical reactions went awry due to
different energy levels. The big plot point that when the speed of light
went back up, everyone got really, really smart since their brains all
worked just fractionally faster. Chaos ensues when everyone realizes
that their job sucks and they all want to be a lot more fulfilled (maybe
it was a social commentary, I read it when I was young...)

Anyway, maybe that's it - maybe the speed of light is .01% faster or slower
in jumpspace. Maybe electron energy levels are slightly different.
Maybe photons are more massive. (Maybe the Great Chuthlu serves drinks 
on the Lido deck) Any of those things might mess with your mind... 

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:59:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

	Greetings!

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Victor J. Raymond wrote:

> Re: the Boys Anti-Tank Rifle
>  
> Having fired one several times earlier this summer, what I can tell you is that it is a heavy SOB.  _Military_Firearms_of_the_20th_C._, 4th Ed. reports that the Boys weighs 36 lb./16 kg. unloaded, so 28 kg. is, indeed, way off.
>  
> Lots of fun to fire, though.  Especially when lying prone, looking downrange towards a Wisconsin hillside of scrub pine and tall grass, trying to imagine a Pzkw. I or II getting ventilated (hopefully) every time I fired.
>  
> Victor
> 

	Did you fire one *legally*? :)

	The ATF requires that everything over .50 cal is registered with
them as a "destructive weapon".  They even require you to register each
round of ammo.  I had a chance to shoot one in '91 down in Florida, but we
ran into some problems with Metro-Dade police....

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:52:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Matthew McLaughlin wrote:
<snip>
>American tradition is a bit different.  
<yada yada yada>
>will with no coercion blah blah blah.  This is the enlistment oath.  I
>think the officers' is basically the same, but leaves out the bit about
>'officers appointed over me'.
Nope, the officer's oath has this part in it as well.

>As far as Travller is concerned, I suspect that the British model is
>much closer.  It seems to me that ties to persons can cross ideological
>boundaries that institutions would find prohibitive.
According to 

<duck>
Millieu 0, 
</duck>

this is what Cleon had in mind when he founded the 3I. Honorable
individual nobles who would act in the best interest of their charges
and the Imperium.  This would allow a certain stability if the nobles
in questions fulfilled this ideal.  And so an oath by this noble to
the emperor (and thus the Imperium) would be binding as would oaths by
others to this noble.

Jim

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime instigator
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1997 22:24:39 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Sylean Orbital Licensing Requirements

I need a good way to describe the Sylean Orbital Licensing Requirements for
the next upgrade to CSC.

Ideally, I'd like something that can be generalized to non-Milieu 0
campaigns.

Would a phrase like "Licensed for supra-atmospheric use on all worlds" be
adequate?

Thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1997 22:47:46 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

>Let me second that last.  SAL was wonderful, but I would like to see
>something like CSC for FF&S2.  If you have some extra time, Rob, how about
>that?

Currently in the works, but it is a much more complicated project!  FFS2 is
currently at the "this is what the menus look like, send me suggestions"
stage.  If any Maccers out there want to get copies, email me privately and
I'll blip them out.

I had originally planned on leaving CSC, but it seems to have taken on a life
of its own :-)

Now if someone would just pay me for the damn thing.  Or if IG would respond
to the letters I've sent them.  Or CORE.  


>BTW, Rob, if you do have any luck compiling on a Mac for the PC with CW,
>let me know.  I have been able to make PC executable on the PC, and Mac
>executables on the Mac, but have had no luck otherwise.

I've barely used CodeWarrior.  But now I know who to write to when I'm having
difficulties!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:57:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What else?

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:34:40 PST
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >Subject: Re: Humour
> ...
> >If they can spare the time, the easiest entry is to use a combo of a
> >personal re-entry kit and some fast drug. You dump the guy into a
> >trajectory that'll look like a natural meteoroid. The fast drug makes
> ...
> >You use the ship to mask the launch of the re-entry pod. It won't need
> >much thrust, so it should be fairly easy to screen the small rocket
> >from the planetary sensors. Especially for a TL7-8 world.
> 
> Hello,
>   I knew he could come up with a good solution. Now that a good,
> workable idea has been provided, can anyone think of unworkable,
> twisted approaches?

Well, there's always the 'Dark Star' approach...strap on a vac suit, stand
on your board and surf on in...;-)

Sadly enough, I could probably work up something like this that would
work...clamps on the board, some sort of ablative surface, a windscreen of
some sort to keep you from being blown off as you pass Mach 2, winglets
that pop out as you get slowed down from an impossible speed to merely
insane to give you some sort of control. 

He he heh...I can see it now...an insane company of drop
troops...screaming down into the atmosphere..."Ride of the Valkyries"
blasting...screaming "Charlie don't surf!"

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1997 23:00:10 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: New CSC Features

I'm currently tinkering with new features for CSC.  So far I have:

1) The smart coating and Black Hole-11 options are now available.
2) It now displays qualification for the Sylean orbital license.
3) It now displays minimum runway length and take-off time for aircraft.



Some features I plan on adding:

1) External crew/passengers.
2) External power sources, as well as external power feeds. 
3) Lighter-Than-Air vehicles.
4) The ability to paste illustrations (although not to draw them).



Some features I would like to have, but need some help with:

1) Stacking armour of different materials: I need a nice simple formula for
adding 1cm of iron to 2cm of wood (for example), and then sloping it.

2) Nuclear dampers: I can't figure out the tables, so I need some examples
designed for me (with explanations).

3) Gun design: I understand that this is a version of GunsGunsGuns.  If
anyone sends me the book, I will add the capability to design your own
weapons.  (I can't afford the book right now.  Think of it as a shareware
payment for a program that gives you hours of twisted enjoyment designing
lethal prams and fusion-powered pogo sticks!)  




A modicum of forward planning has ensured that any new versions will be be
able to read all old data.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:54:47 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

Much to my embarassment, I seem to have dropped out two whole levels are nobility.  Allow me to thank
the gracious individual who pointed this out to me privately, instead of roasting me before the list,
as I deserve.  ;)  This also allows me to incorporate some of the changes that have been suggested.

douglas wrote:

> Knight/Dame
> Baron/Baroness
> Duke/Duchess
> Arch-Duke/Arch-Duchess
> Emperor/Emperess
>
> (Note: for clarity, I will only be using the male form of address for the rest
> of this post.  This is for convienence only, not to imply any disregard for the
> achievements of the female gender...  ;)
>
> What do these people provide?  What exactly does the Imperium do, except provide
> a military force?
>
> This is kind of how I see it...
>

> Emperor (the whole shebang)
>         I
>         I
> ArchDuke (Administers a Sector or Domain)
>         I
>         I
> Duke (Administers one or more  Subsectors)

            I            I
Marquis (Administers Clusters of systems)
            I
            I
Count (Administers a System)

>         I
>         I

> Baron (Administers a  World or part of a world)

    I        I    I        Imperial Knight (including fiefdom)
    I
    I
    I
    Knight

> The knight serves as the first line of the Imperial Nobility.  Usually a award  for service to the
> Empire.  This accolade may be passed to your children,  depending on the circumstances of the
> knighting.
>
> Imperial Knights, who are awarded a fiefdom along with their title, will assume administrative
> control (and recieve payment from) of part of a world or an
> industrial sector of a more prosperous world or system.  They are responsible to a Baron who they
> will pledge fealty to.   Their title will be Knight of [fiefdom].  The children of an Imperial Knight
> will be granted the honor of being addressed by the title Sir or Dame, but may not attach the title
> of 'Knight' to their name, nor pass the title to thieir children, with the exception of the heir, who
> must be confirmed by the Baron.

There will also be individuals, who by reason of the position they hold in either government or
commerce, will be granted the title of 'Knight' to facilitate their work.  This is an honorary title,
and they are permitted to use it only so long as they hold the position that warrants it.  In most
cases, they will be granted an honorary knighthood upon retirement, but this accolade is not passed to
their children.

>
>
> Barons will administer worlds or in some cases systems.  Baronies are hereditary fiefdoms, and will
> pass to the designated heir
> upon confirmation by the System Count.  Children of a Baron will also receive the honor of adding
> 'von' or 'hault' to their name, however, with the exception of the designated heir, they may not use
> the title 'Baron'.  Barons are responsible to a System Count, who they will pledge fealty to.

Counts administer systems.  A County is hereditary, and will pass to the designated heir upon
confirmation by the Marquis or Sector Duke.  Children of a Count will also receive the honor of adding
'Lord' or 'Lady' to their name, however, with the exception of the designated heir, they may not use
the title 'Count'.  Counts are responsible to the SubSector Duke, or the Cluster Marquis (if one has
been appointed), whom they will pledge fealty to.  The Count is the nominal commander of the System
Defense Forces, and may call upon the resources of the system to man those forces,  within the
guidelines set by the SubSector Duke.

*Note - Planetary defense forces are the responsibility of the member worlds,  Imperial Nobles may not
interfere with the manning or deployment of those forces
except where:

1) Such manning interferes with the planet's responsibility to provide Imperial forces.
2) Such deployment threatens Imperial assets or interests.
3) Other cases, as defined by Imperial Law.

Marquis administer clusters of systems.  [I know absolutely nothing about Marquis - comments from the
list are invited]

> Dukes administer one or more SubSectors.  This is a hereditary position, and is passed to the
> designated heir upon confirmation of the ArchDuke.  Children of a Duke also receive the honor of
> adding 'Prince' or 'Princess' to their name, however, with the exception of the designated heir, they
> may not use the title 'Duke'.  Dukes are responsible to the ArchDuke, who they pledge fealty to.
> Dukes are the nominal commanders of the SubSector (Colonial) military forces and may call upon their
> vassals for personnel to man those forces, within the guidelines set by his Arch-Duke. Dukes are
> responsible to:
>
> 1) Maintain the Imperial Presence in their Subsector.
> 2) Provide such forces as the member planets request or require for the safety and welfare of the
> Imperium.
> 3) This is the lowest level of nobility that can authorize the interference with Planetary
> governments.  Such interference requires a review by the Archduke.
>
> ArchDukes administer Sectors or Domains.  These positions are appointed by the Emperor and are
> subject to his pleasure.  ArchDukes are responsible
> to the Emperor/Emperess, who they pledge fealty to.  Archdukes are the nominal commanders of all
> Imperial forces in their domain.
>
> The focal point of any Imperial presence in a system will be on the mainworld.
> The "Imperial Building" will be placed in the highport, if it exists, or else in
> the downport.  All Imperial government offices will be located here, as will any
> diplomatic missions an individual world has assigned to it.  Access to this
> building will be controlled by Imperial Marines.  Any military presence, with
> the exception of recruiting and public affairs, will be in a separate structure.
>
> The primary purpose of the Knights, Barons, Counts and Marquis are to promote their charges to the
> Sector in general.  Since they recieve a fraction of the trade that passes through their area of
> administration, it is also in thier best interests to increase the viability of their charges.  The
> Dukes and the Archdukes look to maintain the peace, and the integrity of the Empire.
>
> Fealty is always  sworn  to the Emperor and Liege Lord.  Fealty flows upward from one level to the
> next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons administering a planet,
> neither will swear to each other, only to the Count above them.)
>

 Thanks for all the good suggestions!  Any others?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2025
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2026



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC Porting
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
Two Bullpup-9 designs
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
Government Waste
Re: Economic data
Re: Piracy -- The new era!
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
Re: Current THUDD and G-Comp Stacking
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:  Jumpspace de
Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: CSC Porting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:14:42 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

James Lindsay wrote:

>
>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:15:32 -0600, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>> 	Hey Doug, Can I be an example in ACQ?   Of something really
>> atrocious?  And come to a really horrible, sticky, and unpleasant end,
>> preferably all over the ceiling?
>
>Consider yourself splattered, sliced 'n diced, deep-fat fried, reduced to
>your subatomic components, etc.  Getting your remains to interact with the
>ceiling might be a bit tricky, however.
>
>Anyone else?


	Cool!  Thanks!

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:58:08 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

Victor Raymond wrote:

>
>Re: Boys AT-Rifle recoil
>
>My sense of it, having fired five rounds (one complete magazine), was that
>it was difficult, BUT, the hydropneumatic recoil cylinder and the monopod
>helped stabilize it.  Certainly the padding on the buttface was
>insufficient (but my shoulder appreciated it).
>
>Hmmmm....I suspect that 6.38 is about right.  And it shot a little to the
>right at 200 yards, too. :)  (That is, until Col. Castonguay had it
>properly sighted in).
>
[snip]


	Hm... so if a 6.38 is difficult, how would a 7, 8, 9, and 10 be?
At which point would the recoil be too much for a shoulder-fired weapon?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:58:15 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

Matthew McLaughlin wrote:

>
>How about doing a Model 5 (the 'Jungle Carbine').  I'd like to see the
>recoil numbers for that.  I already know what it feels like.  Of course,
>that buttpad I have on there is just to place it well for aiming,
>nothing to do with recoil ;-).  I'll get the measurement if you need
>them.
>


	You have a Jungle Carbine?  Cool.  In my cadet corps, there was
general consensus that that was our fave bolt-action WWII rifle.  Gimme
whatever stats you have, and I'll bend FF&S to fit'em.


>> Feed:                   5-round box
>
>I thought this was 10-round?
>


	Could very well be.  My recollections are about 15 years old at
this point, so I could have been wrong.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:08:29 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Two Bullpup-9 designs

	Here are a couple of variants on the Bullpup-9 that I did a while
back.  The Mk 1 uses the T4-canon 5mm round with a longer barrel to
compensate for the lower-powered, cheaper round.  I personally favour the
Mk2; shorter, cheaper, lighter...



Bullpup-9 mk 1

Length:		103 cm
Bulk:		6.87
Mass (empty):	3.321 kg
Price:		783 cr
Range:		93.24 m (medium)
AME:		1770 joules
Damage:		4
Recoil:		2.755/13.776

Barrel: 78 cm light rifled
Reciever: Light auto burst, bullpup, hollow pistol grip
Mag: 50-round box, Mass (loaded): 420.24 gr, Price (loaded):13.61
Round: 5 mm X 42 mm C, rated muzzle energy 1200 joules


Bullpup-9 mk 2

Length:		62 cm
Bulk:		4
Mass (empty):	2.646 kg
Mass (loaded):	3.135 kg
Price:		496 cr
Range:		64.36 m (Medium)
Damage:		4
Recoil:		2.86/14.31

Barrel: 41 cm light rifled
Reciever: Light full auto, bullpup, hollow pistol grip
Mag: 50-round box, Mass (loaded): 665.5 gr, Price (loaded): 21.26
Round: 7.57 mm X 29.03 mm C

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:58:00 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

Ethan Henry wrote:

>
>> OK... several people have posted to the effect that the actual
>> weight of the Boys was 16.56 kg.  Here're the revised numbers.  And why am
>> I so worried that I'm hanging around on a list where not only do several
>> people know the weight of an antique anti-tank rifle off by heart, but
>> somebody's actually fired the thing :)?
>
>This is, IMO, the reason that the TML is the coolest mailing list
>around. You ask a question about astronomy and the astronomers pop
>up. You ask a question about sensors and the IR astronomer pops
>up and says "Well, I ran some simulations...". You ask about a
>wonking huge anti-tank rifle and someone's fired it. You ask about
>real-world military vehicles, someone's usually driven one. Hey, you
>can even get answers about Quebec civil law. ;)
>


	I agree.  This place is an oasis of erudition, humour, and
(usually) good temper in the wasteland of cyberspace.  And the cool thing
is is that it's not discipline-specific.  I guess that the reason why is
that Traveller's scope is just so _huge_, and taps on so many fields, that
a TML will simply attract people from a wide variety of backgrounds.

	And I guess also that since Trav has been around for so long, the
TML also has a pretty high average age for an RPG-related list.  Which is a
great thing, because you don't get any munchkins raving about how Victor,
their 4th-Generation Brujah with four dots in Vicissitude and Celerity, can
do 27 dice of damage four times a round...

	It's a pretty darn cool list, all right :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:27:09 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

> From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
   
> Knight/Dame
> Baron/Baroness
> Duke/Duchess
> Arch-Duke/Arch-Duchess
> Emperor/Emperess
   
> What do these people provide?  What exactly does the Imperium do, 
> except provide a military force?
   
> This is kind of how I see it...
   
   [a lot of good stuff snipped]
   
   The subject of what do nobles do and how do they retain their social
   standings in a technological and putatively capitalistic society has
   always interested me.  The fact that the Imperium provides a military
   seems an inadequate reason since military rank seems largely
   independent of noble rank.
   
   So here's my take on it:  
   
   	The nobles run the starports and collect taxes.
   
   For example:
   
   KNIGHTS: Appointed by the emperor and owing fealty directly to him,
   knights `assist' barons and other nobles at their duties and encourage
   them to always consider the good of the emperor.  His Majesty's
   representatives to planetary governments are also knighted, as are
   high level imperial ministers.  Knightly titles are not heritable.
   
   BARONETS: Otherwise having the full rank, standing, and authority of a
   baron, the baronet is denied a vote on the subsector conclave.  A
   baronet is often appointed by an archduke or viceroy to rule tiny
   insignificant starports on backwater worlds.  In all other
   matters, however, a baronet is essentially a baron.
   
   BARONS: Every starport is a barony and its ruler is a baron.  The baron
   makes sure that the interstellar taxes are collected and that the
   barony and the Imperium both get their share.  In peacetime, he also
   commands the security/naval/marine force at the starport.  He gives
   naughty travellers a hard time, and rewards nice travellers with
   elegant soirees and other social functions designed to promote
   interstellar trade (and interstellar taxes).  Barons run the gamut
   from mighty lords in magnificent manors on wealthy worlds to rude
   dirty starport managers with a fancy name and a big gun on backwater
   worlds.  The baron swears fealty to a count.
   
   COUNTS: Many worlds have more than one starport; such worlds are
   counties.  The count makes sure that the right baron gets the right
   taxes on the interstellar trade, depending on where on the world is
   the official destination or origin of the traded goods.  He handles
   disputes between the barons in his county.  During peacetime he is the
   supreme commander of the world's summed starport military forces.  The
   count swears fealty to a marquis.
   
   MARQUISES: Worlds that are closely dependent on one another for trade
   are bound together into interstellar districts called marches.  The
   marquis resolves ambiguities in the interstellar trade tax codes and
   makes sure that traders do not get around the tax laws by trading
   through false destinations/origins.  The marquis also heads up his
   local delegation of barons when they meet at the subsector conclaves
   to vote on trade regulations and duties.  If you falsify your
   destination or origin when you jump, it will be officers of the Palace
   of the Marquis who first notice the discrepancy and question you about
   it.  The marquis swears fealty to a duke.
   
   DUKES: The most important level of interstellar government is the
   subsector level, and most subsectors are duchies.  The Duke collects
   taxes from his barons and uses them to maintain the subsector naval
   and marine forces.  In peacetime, the security of traders and
   travellers is his responsibility.  All subsector officials are
   ultimately hired or fired by him or his officers.  He resolves
   disputes between his marches and enacts the laws passed by the
   conclave.  He represents his subsector at the Palace of the Sector
   Minister of Trade and makes sure that his vassals are not bearing an
   unfair tax burden.  He socializes with the captains of industry and
   does his part to encourage interstellar trade, the lifeblood of the
   Imperium.  The duke swears fealty to His Majesty himself, the emperor.
   
   ARCHDUKES: During the years of the Federation, the Grand Dukes were
   sovereigns, collecting oaths of fealty from their vassals but swearing
   to no sovereign.  They resolved disputes among themselves in the
   Federation Senate.  After Year 0, the Grand Dukes (except for Cleon,
   who retained his title) swore fealty to the Crown and were called
   archdukes.  An honorary title, the archduchy was no different from an
   ordinary duchy, except that its lord was entitled to be addressed as
   `Your Highness' instead of as `Your Grace.'  In later years, the
   emperor often granted the title of archduke to his viceroys, but these
   archduchies, like the viceroyalties themselves, were not hereditary.
   
   VICEROYS: The viceroy is appointed by the emperor and acts as his
   agent.  Having full imperial authority, he can do anything the the
   emperor can do. (Although if does anything the emperor would not do,
   he may lose his head.)  A viceroy is appointed for as long as the
   emperor specifies to do whatever he specifies.  Once recalled, he
   loses all rank and privilege, although he can be rewarded with other
   more permanent titles.  Viceroys are common wherever dukes fail to get
   along and in newly conquered territories without a trusted nobility.
   Grand Admirals acquire viceregal power during wartime.
   
   SENATORS: Nobles who distinguish themselves in the eyes of His Majesty
   are often offered seats on the Senate, a house of trusted advisors
   on Capital.  The senator hands over his fief to his heir, and moves
   to the imperial court to represent his area and advise the emperor.
   The rank of senator is not hereditary.
   
   FOPS: Particularly obnoxious or incompetent nobles with a penchant for
   surviving duels are often encouraged by their knights to hand over
   most of the routine responsibilities of administration to a competent
   chamberlain.  The lord, of course, is still consulted on important
   matters like interior decoration and pageantry color-schemes.  Often
   the fief will pay its lord who goes far away a stipend or a yacht in
   gratitude.
   
   MULTIPLE FIEFS: It is sometimes the case on worlds with several fiefs
   that the ranking lord assumes control of more than one fief.  In such
   cases, the ranking lord may hand out the titles of these fiefs to
   others (say, his younger sons) while administering them from his own
   palace.  The lords of these controlled fiefs are essentially
   powerless, although they have their titles and privileges.
   
   
   
   This set-up works pretty well in my campaign.  It gives noble
   characters a great deal of power (but keeps a great many limits on it)
   without giving them a great deal of personal property, so they keep
   their interest in adventuring.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:42:33 PST
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Government Waste

> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:25:53 -0800
> From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> Subject: RE: Economic Data

(snip)

> Governments, even the best of 'em, suffer from inefficiency
> and lack of direction.  A dispersed self-perpetuating oligarchy 
> such as the Imperium would not even come near what I would 
> envision as the best.

Indeed! I think this has been one of the most sensible comments 
I have seen in a while.  Sure, the Imperium is going to have
enormous tax revenues, but what's the waste factor?  Pretty darned
high, I would think, given the way the Imperium is set up.

- --
Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Montgomery County, Ohio


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:33:51 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economic data

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:06:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>David P. Summers writes:
>>>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>>And I have tried to make these points before:
>>>
>>>The ships that might be lost cost a hell of a lot.

>>In which case the pirates might find taking just the cargo
>>a better bet because they don't worry about having to
>>move a damaged or sabotaged ship

>The problem with that is that pirate ships costs a hell of a lot too,
>and if they only get a cargo once in a blue moon, they won't be able
>to make a profit.

Which is why I have already said that piracy would probaly
occur as a sideling.  (To smuggling is good, because such
people will already have connections to sell illegal goods).

>>and, more importantly, they don't have to deal with the heat that such
>>a heavy loss would call down on them.

>The problems with that notion is that what is bad for pirates as a class
>is good for the individual pirate. Assuming for purposes of argument that
>he has managed to capture a ship intact, the ship is so much more valuable
>than the cargo, even if we assume rock-bottom fencing prices, that he
>would be crazy to leave it behind just to avoid increasing the odds
>against him at a later date.

This cuts both ways.  Sure the profits are high.  But, the
high cost attracts more attention.  If the risks of taking
a ship are high, then you are only going to attract the
very greedy and reckless to such a crime. This is enough
that ship taking will be comesurately rarer.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:23:47 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:29:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Well, this is _not_ agreed on.  For B to invalidate A it not only
>>has to be "possible" to stamp out piracy [...] but it [also] has to
>>[have a] low enough cost the Imperium would clearly choose to do it.

>Exactly. And if it only takes a tiny percentage of the active fleet to
>safeguard all the necessary places, I submit that such is the case. You
>may argue that _all_ the active ships of the regular, colonial, and
>planetary fleets would be needed to sit around the high-population
>worlds looking menacing, instead of just 99.8% of them, but this is just
>as clearly contrary to previously published material.

Well, we already know that I don't agree that the percentge is
as tiny as you describe and I don't agree that you can take out
enough ships to stop piracy without hurting defense.  (For example,
the number of escorts you need in wartime is a fraction of what
you need to safeguard every ship everwhere, since the point
of convoys is to concentrate ships to make them easier to
defend).  My disagreement is unchanged.

>>(otherwise, you have to invoke assumptions about
>>how the Imperium would treat piracy,

>We know how the Imperium treats piracy. They patrol against pirates and even
>employ strike forces to replace governments that are found to support them.

Anti-piracy messages (including many of yours) have included
assumption about the utility of Gas Giants, whether you
would have a regulated jump point, whether transponders
would make ship identification easy and certain, wether
all ships would be tracked on all worlds, etc.  These are
all in dispute and are not cannon.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:20:43 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
>Here's an attempt at a WWI anti-tank rifle.  

WWII, actually.  It was introduced in 1938, but was obsolete soon after.

>Unfortunately, since I don't have any data on the actual mass of the Boys
Mk1 
>antitank rifle that I modelled this after

Here's the real-world data:
Mass (empty/loaded): 16.32kg/17.235kg.
Length: 163cm.
Recoil system: Muzzle brake, shock-absorbing stock.

>IMHO, 28.5 kg strikes me as being a wee bit heavy.

Yes, that does sound a bit heavy; it _is_ a bit heavy.  Both the PTRS-41
and the .55 Boys suffer from this problem.  The reason that the rules are
set up this way is to allow the machineguns and light autocannons to work
out.  I'd tested (and rejected) a "High-Energy Recievers" formula that went
something like this:

	Rmass = 10.25 + (Erated - 10,000) / 2500

Ideally, I could use more detailed data on the various modern anti-material
rifles that have been developed within the last 10 years or so, to allow me
to work up a formula that works for all of them.  I suspect that this would
require a special receiver type or other special rule just for these weapons, 
that uses a different formula from the main sequence.



                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:15:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

At 03:11 pm 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Personal request -
>
>Does anyone have or know where I could get either -
>
>a worldbuilders program (either DOS or Windows 3 or 95)
>
>or a spreadsheet in Lotus 123 format - I've had real problems translating
>excel files..

	If somebody can read Excel files and save to Lotus123 for this gentleman,
there's both a worldbuilder's and starport details spreadsheet on my
website ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:39:03 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Current THUDD and G-Comp Stacking

At 07:39 pm 10/27/97 -0500, Wesley Esser wrote:
>What is the word on G-Comp stacking, alla CSC, in FFS2, and in
>particular for the Fighter THUDD.  I am assuming that it is allowed,
>using the CSC rules, since the official 10T fighters are 6G (actually,
>that's really a matter of justifying that starships abomonition).  What
>does everyone say in general, and regarding the THUDD in particular?

	It's not in FF&S2, and IIRC, that was at Marc's desire. It's not
canonical, and changes the flavor of things. You can still build 6G
fighters, BTW--your crew will just have to deal with the excess Gs.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:59:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

At 12:44 am 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The speed of the ships is only limited by the grav comps...which is Traveller
>related also (I wonder how many people actually realize that 6-G combat
>vessels are purely TL 15 creations, since it's only then that G-comps handle
>6-Gs [per FF&S2] ).

	Sorry, that's a common layman's mistake--just because the G-Comps can only
handle 6 Gs says NOTHING about what the maximum acceleration of the ship
is. You can handle 1G excess indefinitely (hint: you're subject to 1G of
uncompensated acceleration right now ...), and in combat, for _short_
periods, can certainly copy with more ...

	I thought we explicitly pointed that out in FF&S2, and provided some
guidelines for the effects of excess Gs?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:48:19 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:  Jumpspace de

At 03:40 pm 10/26/97 GMT0, Andrew Boulton wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971025113326.00d731d8@mail.pcisys.net>
>>  Niven/Pournelle collaborations
>
>I'd limit that to TMiGE - IMHO all their other collaborations have been 
>inferior to their solo stuff.

	I liked TGH, although not as much as TMiGE. Footfall was excellent, and a
much better description of how an alien race would try to subjugate Earth
than, say, ID4. Besides, they practically deified Heinlein in that
book--how could you not like it? Plus the way we humans kicked ass at the
end--much better than the weak ending of ID4 ...

>>  Bujold, Lois
>
>I'd put her in the top 3.

	I really like her Vorkosigan stuff (I think I have it all), but I was
weaned on my top three authors ...

>>  Zahn, Timothy
>
>Only read his SW stuff, and I wasn't overly impressed. Good, but 
>nowhere near great.

	His Cobra stuff was better.

>>  Bester, Alfred
>
><splutter> He should be at no.1...if not higher!

<double splutter> HIGHER THAN HEINLEIN?!?! <spoken with rising
pitch><reaches for Famille Spofulam arms catalog to get proper "teaching
tool" to show an infidel the error of his ways ...>

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:27:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)

At 01:11 pm 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:
>> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>> 
>> 
>> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:42:01 +0800
>> From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
>> 
>> >
>> >Fealty is always (with the exception of Oaths to the  Emperor) sworn to
the
>> >office, not to the person filling it.  There are provisions for
personal oaths,
>> >but they are not part of the office.  Fealty flows upward from one
level to the
>> >next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons
>> >administering a system, neither will swear to each other, only to the Duke
>> above
>> >them.)
>> 
>> Interesting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
>> personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
>> Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and
most
>> commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. The reason behind this
>> is presumably that all institutions require to have their requirements
>> interpreted.  An oath to say serve and protect the Democratic Republic of
>> Kafiristan means nothing unless you know who speaks for it and decides what
>> ought to be done.  One solution is to presume it is simply lawful commands
>8><---------------
>American tradition is a bit different.  
>[Approximate quote] 'I swear (or affirm) to uphold and defend the
>Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
>domestic, to bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and to obey the
>orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed
>over me.'  Followed by yada yada about taking this obligation under free
>will with no coercion blah blah blah.  This is the enlistment oath.  I
>think the officers' is basically the same, but leaves out the bit about
>'officers appointed over me'.
>
>I'm not an expert on it, but I suspect the whole oath to a person thing
>was dropped in favor of an oath to an ideal, or the institutional
>representation of that ideal (the constitution). The whole theory of
>co-government of equals by equals makes it difficult to support the idea
>of an oath of fealty to an individual.

	FWIW, the oath I took as an American military officer is neither to a
person nor to a government nor other body, but to an ideal:

	"I, David J. Golden, having been appointed a Second Lieutenant in the
United States Air Force, do solemnly swear that I will uphold and defend
the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I
take this oath freely, without mental reservation or purpose of evasion;
and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office I am
about to enter. So help me God."

	(the wording may be off _just_ a hair ... it's been almost ten years ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:32:49 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Leroy ->
>As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
>to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
>to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
>of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

There is a small set of rules that I live by regarding communication:

1.  It is up to the person talking to be understood.

2.  Eventually, you must decide that the person on the other end is not
listening.  Stop talking to them at that time.

If your posts are regularly misunderstood, in your opinion, then change how
you communicate.  Or don't.  It is entirely your call, but I would be more
likely to listen if you did.  It is up to you whether that is worth
altering your argument style.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:35:57 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

>>Let me second that last.  SAL was wonderful, but I would like to see
>>something like CSC for FF&S2.  If you have some extra time, Rob, how about
>>that?
>
>Currently in the works, but it is a much more complicated project!  FFS2 is
>currently at the "this is what the menus look like, send me suggestions"
>stage.  If any Maccers out there want to get copies, email me privately and
>I'll blip them out.

As you say.

>I had originally planned on leaving CSC, but it seems to have taken on a life
>of its own :-)
>
>Now if someone would just pay me for the damn thing.  Or if IG would respond
>to the letters I've sent them.  Or CORE.

I know what you mean, I know what you mean.

>>BTW, Rob, if you do have any luck compiling on a Mac for the PC with CW,
>>let me know.  I have been able to make PC executable on the PC, and Mac
>>executables on the Mac, but have had no luck otherwise.
>
>I've barely used CodeWarrior.  But now I know who to write to when I'm having
>difficulties!

Ask away!  I do not promise that I will know the answers, but I will give
them a shot.

(This last is why I made this a public post - anyone else who needs CW
help, I might
be able to help.)

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2026
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2027



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: New CSC Features
Re: CSC Porting
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Ten Essential Books (was: Re: Ten Essential Authors)
Re: New CSC Features
Re: Bolos and Weber
Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
Re: Current THUDDD and G-Comp Stacking
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: TL of 6-G accel
Re: SF Reading List
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: Weber's Universe
Piracy, Transponders, and You.
Re: Piracy by the numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:44:23 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")

I have a copy of Imperium, mostly unpunched, box slightly curved in, 
with a copyright by "Conflict Game Company", whoever they were ;)

Anyone know what it's worth, and anyone interested in buying same?

DonM.
- --
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 = 
=========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:01:02 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

At 02:47 PM 10/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>If you are just tuning in, I previously stated that I considered the
>existence of a separate, and distinct, list within the list (Traveller
>Mailing List [TML]) called the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  I had
>said that this "other" TML is a dissident minority and that it was sad
>that nothing could be done about it.

Leroy has dug up the grease spot that used to be horse.  Lovely.

I don't know what list you are reading, but the TML I'm on has intense
debates about everything Traveller, a little silliness, and a core group of
people who have grown to be friends.

I would point out that the whole "dissident" minority bit is rather weak in
the face of the thunderous silence from the legions of supporters you keep
claiming.  Why don't you accept that many of us find you and your bizarre
opinions tiresome and annoying?

During the Great Task Debate, there was a period when Kenneth Bearden was
posting hourly screeds on how his task system was the Traveller equivalent
of the Second Coming.  It would save our games, knock AD&D out of
contention, whiten our teeth, and help us Make Money Fast!  Many people, me
included, got rather tired of this and told him to knock it off.

How did Kenneth respond?  Not by insulting us, or claiming infallibility
because he once fetched a Pepsi for Loren at a con, but by realizing he had
gone overboard and apologizing.

You seem to be unable to conceive of a universe where people disagree with
you or just dislike you.  Guess what?  I don't like you from what I've read
of your work and what my friends who also know you have told me.

>Craig Berry, at your request, I "took the discussion offlist", but you
>didn't seem to want to discuss it at that point, or at least I got no
>reply from the note I sent you.  So, back I am, Sam I am.

Craig has a busy life, raising the Future Ruler of the Planet.  He
sometimes takes weeks to answer my mail.  You expect someone whom you've
tee'd off to jump when you post?

>Now, in exactly the form that I had predicted, you launch more questions,
>because you are not satisfied with your first questions.  It is like I said
>before, you get a tire count, and you're not happy with that, then you want
>tire _pressure_.  Simply--you won't be happy with it, _no_ matter _what_ it
>_does_ contain.  I'm even skeptical that you had seen a copy at the time
>you wrote what you did.

OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?

Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
Industrial Grav shown?

>Ethan, regarding the above...
>
>I just call it social.  Afterall, we are talking about a game, not
>something that the masses will rebuild civilisation from after the
>fall.  Had the feedback been solicited, then that would be a different
>matter, and then more diplomacy could be used than what I have seen
>on the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  Since it was _unsolicited_,
>In call it lack of spine.  It is that simple.

So if IG doesn't explicitly ask my opinion, I should shut up and take it?
Sure..

Right now I'm writing an adventure for "Missions of State."  When the
product comes out, I *want* to hear what people are saying about my work,
for good or bad.  That's how I improve, by finding out what I'm doing
wrong, and correcting it.

Looking at the credits for EV, I see the names of several people I would
consider friends.  That friendship won't stop me from speaking my opinion.
If an author can't take the heat, I suggest that he or she should find a
new line of work.

A few weeks ago, I received email from someone who hated my article
"Strike!" in JTAS.  Went on in vulgar and threatening terms about how
anti-union I was, and how I was probably some life-long college student who
had never worked a day in my life, and if he ever caught me, etc...

The funny thing, I'm a member of the Teamsters.  Do I get upset that
someone so misread what I meant by the article?  No, I smile and get back
to work.

>Frankly, the whole TML would be better off if there were less gossip
>and flaming of the game.

IMHO, the list would be better off without people who make personal attacks
a regular part of their postings.

>To make mountains out of mole-hills is how I see the chatter about
>IG's product on part of this list.  It reminds me of the time that
>it was declared here that (I paraphrase) "Marc had killed off a
>major race, and what was he going to do about it?"  Hogwash!

So the fans had no right to discuss the Aslan?  Hogwash!  It was a major
turning point in the game's history, and led to some serious discussions of
the very nature of what made a Major Race!  Your path would have the list
chanting "IG is good, obey, obey" repeatedly!

>No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.

My offer still stands, you and me in a Traveller showdown at GenCon.

>>When people post their reviews of products like EV, they're reviewing 
>>the product, not the author. If I said that I didn't like EV, or, 
>>let's say, if you said there were faults in the Skyraiders trilogy, 

>The only reason I brought up the Skyraiders trilogy was because Doug
>seemed (to me) to be holding up the flawed past as unflawed, and using
>it as an excuse for his pointing out flaws of current product.

No, what Doug did was use a single scene out of a three part adventure to
point out that knowing the capacity of a fuel tank could be important.

You then started yelling about the *jump drives* involved in a separate
book of the trilogy!

That had nothing at all to do with my point, you neatly avoided any
response by going off on a tangent.  Again, since a significant plot point
in TotSR involves a cross-country chase, would you admit that having
detailed information about the vehicles involved is important?

>>By extension, if I, or anyone else, thinks that your review stinks, then
>>we are free to review the review and say what we like about it. I have
>>no idea why you think that any sort of review is a personal attack on 
>>the author.

>"Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
>balanced.  Since you bring it up, I was reviewing the informal reviews
>of the Traveller Maligning List (TML) as unbalanced and maligning, so
>we are in this circle you see.

So if I were to review "Plan 9 from Outer Space", it would be a personal
attack on Ed Wood, Jr. if I didn't say equally good and bad things about it?

Political Correctness gone mad!  Leroy, I'm going to call a spade a spade,
and a dog a dog.  If you have trouble with this, I suggest you hide your
tender eyes from a group of adults who understand that while the truth
sometimes hurts, it's the best thing for all.

>>Quite simply, you have to be trolling. Your statement goes so much 
>>against the way that reviewers of any sort work that it can't possibly
>>be anything else.

>I've already stated that I feel that there is no balance, supported by
>reading some of the TML posts, and don't feel obliged to address any
>perceived drawbacks, especially when I perceive *NONE*.  Of course, if
>you'd like to compose my reviews, I'll have to disappoint you.

Fine, you did that.  Then when several of us pinned your ears back by
calling out the glaring omissions and errors, you responded, in essence,
that we were picking on you, and oops!  mid-terms, gotta run.

>However, to flame the game, is an issue of spine when you tell Loren
>what you thought of TNE (No matter how right you are) because after all,
>it _is_ a game.  We have lost sight of the fact that we derive hours
>of enjoyment from this game.  This all reminds me of sportsfans.

I've told Loren what I thought of TNE, and T2K, to his face, and he thanked
me for it.  Leroy, these games aren't abstract works of art to be admired
for their simple creation, they are products being released into a very
competitive market.  TNE was like the New Coke of RPGs.  Take an
established winner and screw with it.  T4 is Coke Classic.

>I am trying to decide whether to just apply as a Master's candidate, or
>go for a straight-through PhD program, in Computer Science and Engineering.
>Significant choices for a significant lifestyle. :)

>As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
>to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
>to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
>of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

Leroy, you have insulted me on several occasions, insinuated that I don't
know what I'm talking about, and twisted my words beyond recognition.  Now
you moan about people not thinking just like you?  Shheeesshh!!

>Don't expect line-by-line opinions from me--that is for people who can't
>stand having their opinions challenged, and a particularly bad habit that
>is easy to get in with e-mail commo.  (I only did it here because it was
>all worth commenting on to explain something I said from over a week ago.)

Funny, I do line-by-line commentary so that I can reply in full and make
sure that my comments are next to the subject.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:21:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

 
Re: Boys AT-Rifle
 
Ken wondered if I had fired one legally.  The answer is yes; this particular Boys had been rechambered for .50 cal. Browning.  Col. Castonguay assured me that the difference between .50 Browning and .55 BESA was miniscule; if anything, the Browning round had more kick.
 
Just another .02 credits
 
Victor Raymond

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:21:47 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

At 05:34 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Anyway, maybe that's it - maybe the speed of light is .01% faster or slower
>in jumpspace. Maybe electron energy levels are slightly different.
>Maybe photons are more massive. (Maybe the Great Chuthlu serves drinks 
>on the Lido deck) Any of those things might mess with your mind... 

Perhaps jumpsapace is really an Infinite Improbability Generator.. 

"Eneri, you're turning into a penguin!  Stop that!"
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:23:55 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

At 11:00 PM 10/28/97 GMT, you wrote:

>3) Gun design: I understand that this is a version of GunsGunsGuns.  If
>anyone sends me the book, I will add the capability to design your own
>weapons.  (I can't afford the book right now.  Think of it as a shareware
>payment for a program that gives you hours of twisted enjoyment designing
>lethal prams and fusion-powered pogo sticks!)  

Send me you real world addy.. I think I have a spare copy running around
here somewhere.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:14:44 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Porting

At 08:37 PM 10/28/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:15:32 -0600, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>> 	Hey Doug, Can I be an example in ACQ?   Of something really
>> atrocious?  And come to a really horrible, sticky, and unpleasant end,
>> preferably all over the ceiling?
>
>Consider yourself splattered, sliced 'n diced, deep-fat fried, reduced to
>your subatomic components, etc.  Getting your remains to interact with the
>ceiling might be a bit tricky, however.

Yeah, Rod's definitely in.. of course, after *your* little example in the
Melee combat section, don't be surprised when you read about "James" being
mauled to death by Giant Space Hamsters in the next draft!

(Kirsten loved it, BTW)

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:21:41 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

>Yes, that does sound a bit heavy; it _is_ a bit heavy.  Both the PTRS-41
>and the .55 Boys suffer from this problem.  The reason that the rules are
>set up this way is to allow the machineguns and light autocannons to work
>out.  I'd tested (and rejected) a "High-Energy Recievers" formula that went
>something like this:

Interestingly you get the same problem with the 14.5mm KPV Russian Heavy
machine Gun.  I designed one according to FF&S to check out the the limits
of the design protocol.  It comes out as heavier and longer, by 20% or more
from the figures given in Jane's Infantry weapons. ( I will post both
figures as sonn as I can).
Incidently, the KPV was designed around the round of the PTRS and PTRD AT
Rifles, and has roughly twice the Muzzle energy of a .50 cal. (18000:32000
Joules).  By the way, why is there no mechanism for water-coling?

        
Colin
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:18:01 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books (was: Re: Ten Essential Authors)

This has been rather interesting ... trying to narrow it down to only ten
authors isn't all that easy. But it could be worse--here's the next
challenge. You're going to be locked away (or snowed in) from bookstores,
libraries, magazine stands, paper boys, television, etc. for an
indeterminate period of time. You can choose ten SF books to take into the
box with you for entertainment. These have to be books you can reread (not
right away, necessary, although I've enjoyed a few books so much I started
in again on page one as soon as I finished them). They also have to be
real, hardcopy, paper and ink, bound BOOKS. Which books, by which authors,
would you take?

I haven't given this much thought yet, myself, but I know these books will
be contenders to make the list without even looking at my library:

	Heinlein, Puppet Masters
	Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
	Heinlein, Starship Troopers
	Niven/Pournelle, The Mote In God's Eye
	Niven, Ringworld
	Cherryh, The Book of Morgaine (cheat--it's all three of her Morgaine books
combined into one, from the Science Fiction Book Club. Hey, it's a single
book!)
	McCaffrey, The Dragonriders of Pern (another cheat--the first three Pern
books ... Now if the SFBC would just combine a bunch of Heinleins, instead
of doing them one by one ...)

Hmmm ... this is getting harder than I thought! And no fair psychoanalyzing
people's personalities based on their choice.

ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
feel, but I think that would be too limiting...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:29:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

At 11:00 pm 10/28/97 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
>1) Stacking armour of different materials: I need a nice simple formula for
>adding 1cm of iron to 2cm of wood (for example), and then sloping it.

	I don't think it's possible, given the cubic root function Greg was forced
into. IIRC, his advice for layered armor was to just take the larger of the
two armor values.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:55:30 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bolos and Weber

In a message dated 97-10-27 20:55:31 EST, MLaurie@compuserve.com writes:

<< At least Honor Harringtons universe has super dreadnoughts of only
 8 million tons!  >>

I believe you can safely assume that the SDN actually *MASSES* 8 million
tons...this coincides (with a reasonable fudge factor...and a BIG salt
shaker) to about what a 1 million d-ton DN in Trav would likely mass.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:57:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

 
> >> Feed:                   5-round box
> >
> >I thought this was 10-round?

It is 10 rounds.  Early version of the No.1 Mk. III had a
magazine-cutoff which when slid into place limited you to single
shot use---to keep the lads from wasting ammo :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:43:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Current THUDDD and G-Comp Stacking

In mail you write:

> Now, realize that today's fighter pilots pull 3Gs routinely, which is what
> you'd feel at 6Gs with 3 compensated.  Of course, they do this for only
> very short intervals, as opposed to space fighters which might be called
> upon to accelerate longer.

On the other hand, aircraft pilots are pulling 3 g *head-to-foot*.
Space fighter pilots will be pulling 3 g *chest-to-back*. You can take
the latter for *long* periods as the centrifuge tests with the
astronauts show. 

> In short, I'm leaving the answer to this dilemma up to the THUDDD
> designers, and then the judges:  How much acceleration can/should a
> TL-12 fighter have, in the absence of g-comp stacking?

I'd say that 3g for extended periods is quite possible. And for
specially picked crews 6g ought to be possible. Maybe even higher.
(anybody know where to get info about the tests they ran on the early
astronauts?) 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:12:07 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

In a message dated 97-10-28 00:03:12 EST, rde@ican.net writes:

<< 	Any comments from the more firearms-savvy list members?  If
 somebody knows how much the Boys weighed it'd be just fantastic; I could
 then get a better value for the recoil. >>

Here is the info I have on the Boys...from Military Small Arms of the 20th
Century (6th Ed)

..55 Boys Mk 1 and 2

Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield Lock
Length Overall:  1614mm (63.5 in)
Weight Empty:  16.32kg (36.0lb)
Barrel:  915mm (36.0in) 7 grooves, rh
Magazine:  5-shot detachable box
Muzzle Velocity:  990m/sec (3250fps)
Armour Pen: 21mm/300m/0 degrees

Hope this helps

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:10:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:34:18 -0500
> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> 
> > In short, while Niven-style weird-looking jumpspace is a cool concept, I
> > don't buy it.  IMTU, look out a port in jump and you'll see a very faint
> > blue glow flickering over absolute blackness.
> 
> Ok, like, how many times do I have to mention this: Niven's hyperspace
> doesn't look like _anything_. You have an open window, you go into
> hyperspace, and the entire wall warps so that the window disappears.
> In Niven's universe, that makes some people nauseous. But there is no
> "look" to Niven's hyperspace. It is the "un-look".

This is a matter of terminology, but I'd call that "looking like
something;" that is, it has a visible effect; or in other words, you can
tell you're looking at hyperspace by the fact that the porthole has
mysteriously contracted.

[snip]
> It reminds me of a sci-fi story (maybe it was a novel even) where,
> one day, suddenly, the speed of light changed. It want up by some
> fraction of a percent. Scientist figured that the Earth had been in
> a "slow" region of space. Entering the "slow" region had killed
> the dinosaurs, as suddenly all chemical reactions went awry due to
> different energy levels. The big plot point that when the speed of light
> went back up, everyone got really, really smart since their brains all
> worked just fractionally faster. Chaos ensues when everyone realizes
> that their job sucks and they all want to be a lot more fulfilled (maybe
> it was a social commentary, I read it when I was young...)

_Brain Wave_, by (IIRC) Poul Anderson.  Good book!

> Anyway, maybe that's it - maybe the speed of light is .01% faster or slower
> in jumpspace. Maybe electron energy levels are slightly different.
> Maybe photons are more massive. (Maybe the Great Chuthlu serves drinks 
> on the Lido deck) Any of those things might mess with your mind... 

Yeah, right alongside the Aslan in the French maid outfit... :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:23:53 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: TL of 6-G accel

In a message dated 97-10-28 04:47:14 EST, jenry023@student.liu.se (Jens
'Spacejens' Rydholm) writes:

<< But you do not need to compensate the whole 6 G ! >>

I always thought the same way...modern astronauts experience accel of 3-g all
the way to orbit and don't really suffer ill effects.  I personally like the
example given in Niven/Pournelle "The Mote in Gods Eye".  The ships were
built for sustained hi-g manuevers, with most controls and equipment built
into specially padded and supported couches, which were able to move around.
 Very few tasks were taken under accel, unless in dire need.  BTW this
universe presupposes NO g-comps...my reason for posting the comment I did was
that the rules (BL/BR) states tasks are 1 level harder for each G of accel
above the comp limit.  Anyone else have any take on this?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:58:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SF Reading List

In mail you write:

> Samuel R. Delany  - Nova; Triton; Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand;
>                         Babel-17

Ballad of Beta-2 is an interesting story for giving ideas on high tech
visiting low tech.

BTW, Fritz lieber's SF has a few stories that are useful to Traveller
folk. "The Wanderer" has ships the size of *planets*, with weaponry to
match (Particle accelerators thousands of miles long with aperutures
measured in km).

"Gather, Darkness" has a society where a religion is using high-tech as
"magic". 

I can't recall if he or Lester del Rey wrote "The Eleventh
Commandment", which deals with another religion dominated society on a
high pop world. And in the end, it turns out that the religion's most
objectional (to at least some folks) doctrine is justified after all.
Or at least justified enough that there's no easy answer. A great way
to shake up self-righteous characters.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:11:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

In mail you write:

>         And I guess also that since Trav has been around for so long, the
> TML also has a pretty high average age for an RPG-related list.  Which is a
> great thing, because you don't get any munchkins raving about how Victor,
> their 4th-Generation Brujah with four dots in Vicissitude and Celerity, can
> do 27 dice of damage four times a round...

When I was running D&D, I had a simple solution for would be munchkins.
I just dragged out my copy of the C&S Saurians supplement (which
included tables for converting C&S critters to other systems), pointed
out the stats for a T. Rex and after they digested the figures, I
handed them the C&S rules with the stats for Dragons and Trolls
highlighted. They tended to be somewhat subdued after that...

It helped that I'd been known to have parties fall through "gates" to
other worlds more than once.

Rule of life: There's *always* someone or something bigger and badder
	      than you are.
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:50:48 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In a message dated 97-10-29 00:44:21 EST, goldendj@pcisys.net writes:

<< Sorry, that's a common layman's mistake--just because the G-Comps can only
 handle 6 Gs says NOTHING about what the maximum acceleration of the ship
 is.  >>

I realized that...I was trying to point out that in order to make a vessel
that has the MAX accel ability of 6-G w/out suffering the consequences of the
hi-g exposure required TL15...the cost in crew ability (IMHO) is sharp enough
that most commanders would prefer any edge they could get.  A Tl15 vessel
(irregardless of any other advantages it had) would be at a great advantage
over a TL-12/13 vessel operating at the same accel.  (If I'm right, a Task
that would be Average for both would be at least Formidable or higher for the
lower tech ship)

Ed Jenkins (dustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:53:06 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Piracy, Transponders, and You.

>two options: He can jump into a system with his transponder on, in which
case
>he won't be able to take advantage of any prey, or he can jump in with his
>transpponder off, in which case he has blown any chance of doing legitimate
>business if he dosen't find an easy target. (Btw. according to canon it is
>illegal even to install an on-off switch on your transponder; I don't use
>that in my campaign universe, but it's the official rule).

Transponders were something I've always had a problem with more or less in
Traveller.  They make sense in the broad scheme of things:  the Imperium
could find out who was there in the system.  That makes sense.

However, I hardly think fringe traders would find this acceptable for just
that reason.  And this isn't just a free trader concern either.  There are
several megacorps that have bases and factories outside of the Imperium
(susag jumps to mind).

I mean, even if you were armed, would you want to jump into a non-Imperial
system with a transponder activated?  Of course not!

I think transponders should be overhauled before piracy eliminated.

>Not unless they are at war.

No, naval forces at the borders will have bigger fish to fry.  Coreward, the
Imperium is not at "war" with the Vargr, but there are many incursions into
Imperial space.  That would be the first priority of the Navy.  Granted, it
would be difficult to tell Imperial piracy from Vargr piracy on a ship's
scanner, so you'd have a good chance of being vaporized by a large ship.

On the Zhodani border I'm sure alot of manpower goes into monitoring Zhodani
ship movements, even when they're not at war.

>There are two ways to suppress pirates. One is to hunt them down in their
>lairs and ground them into dust. There are canonical examples of the
>Imperium doing just that, but I'm quite ready to postulate situations
>where that is not possible, like some of the ones you suggested. The
>second method is to always have a patrol ship close enough to catch or
>at least drive off the pirate. Historically this was made difficult by
>the fact that there were always far more places to patrol than ships
>available to do the patrolling. A ship could only watch as far as the
>horizon (30 miles diameter or so, IIRC). 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:53:42 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Piracy by the numbers

>Cr500 isnt too bad ... assuming naval spending at 5% of GDP, that puts per
>capita income at Cr10 000 a head, which is pretty much within the figures
>I've worked thru PE and Striker I.

I think the Cr500 per head is too high.  After reading through Trillion
Credit Squadron, which is where the figure comes from, I have decided the
number doesn't _work_.  TCS is a set of wargame rules with simplified wargame
economics. As such doesn't reflect proper balance.

In addition, it just doesn't fit well with the Imperium.  It seems to be more
geared towards smaller pocket empires battling each other than anything else.

If I am to use the Cr500 tax rate, then I'll argue that it is the _total_
imperial tax rate, and _everything_ comes out of it.  The XBoats, the
bureaucracy, Imperial colonization projects, naval depots, scout waystations,
scout bases, imperial run starports, imperial colonies, big navy ships, etc
etc.

I'd be slightly more inclined to accept this figure.  Psychologically it
doesn't sit well because the majority of the population aren't spacefarers,
and would be, IMHO, less inclined to like paying Imperial taxes.  Most would
be invisible to the common man (traders and brokers are taxed for goods,
which is passed on in cost to the consumer).  However, I would think that the
less interstellar trade on a world (the lower the starport), the less
Imperial taxes they'd pay.  As a result, these places would be less patrolled
(the Imperium has always struck me as being somewhat mercenary, especially
now with the Milieu:0 book).  Some trade would be done, mainly by tramp
freighters, and some piracy would, or could exist.  So a flat Cr500 just
doesn't work.

>Thats 27 *new* Kinuirs per year ... assuming crew costs etc are 10% of ship
>costs per year, and maintainence etc is 20% per year (wayyyyy more than
>merchants pay btw), then it means we can maintain about 70 Kinuirs with our
>defense budget, and retire them when they get old.
>
>Also, if they are fighting pirates, the pirates are fighting them. And I'll
>bet the Navy gets repaired a lot easier and cheaper than pirates do.

I'm not going to assume yearly maintenance is 20%.  I'm going to assume that
maintenance is 10%, as TCS states.  Actually, the number I *was* using was
0.01%, which is just as low as merchant ships.  Crew costs are relatively
cheap, granted.  But the crew on the ship are not the only crew, AND, high
tech warships _will_ pay alot more money for maintenance than tramp
freighters.  Just the way things are.

And I'm not so sure that the Navy gets repaired "easier" than pirates do.
 Cheaper?  Sort of.  The navy's still paying, but they're paying out of the
tax pool.  The pirates are paying out of the lucrative pirate trade pool.

As far as easier, I would bet that pirate ships tend to be lower tech, so
easier and cheaper to repair (a TL 12 sensor is easier than a TL 15 one, for
example).  Further, it'll be easier for a TL 12 ship to find a port to repair
in then a TL 15 naval vessel.  Just the way the Imperium lays.

>>And, how about the lawsuits when an anti-piracy craft fires upon the wrong
>>ship and kills little Billy Jenkins, the cabin boy.
>
>*shrug* call it a legal slush fund of MCr50 a year, eg stuff all.

I'd like to do that, but I'm not sure I can.  I'd rather go with insurance.
 It makes people feel safer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2027
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2028



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What else?
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Yet more piracy
Jump Drives in FF&S version 2.
Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)
Imperial Nobility
Re: What else?
Re: Top Ten SF authors...
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:04:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What else?

In mail you write:

>>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:34:40 PST
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Humour
> ...
>>If they can spare the time, the easiest entry is to use a combo of a
>>personal re-entry kit and some fast drug. You dump the guy into a
>>trajectory that'll look like a natural meteoroid. The fast drug makes
> ...
>>You use the ship to mask the launch of the re-entry pod. It won't need
>>much thrust, so it should be fairly easy to screen the small rocket
>>from the planetary sensors. Especially for a TL7-8 world.
>
> Hello,
>   I knew he could come up with a good solution. Now that a good,
> workable idea has been provided, can anyone think of unworkable,
> twisted approaches?

Oh, if *that* is what you want....

1. Recruit a psi with Teleportation and teleport the guy off the ship.

2. While the ship is in atmosphere on the way to the port, do a HALO
   (High Altitude, Low Opening) parachute jump from the ship. That is,
   jump at 10 km or more (if you have oxygen) and only open the chute
   in the last thousand or so feet.

   It's a "standard" method for covert insertion. It requires *high*
   levels of skill and is dangerous as hell. Among other things, the
   slipstream around the ship should make things interesting.

3. Use drugs to slow the guy's metabolism, wrap him in an insulating
   blanket and bury him in a cargo container full of frozen meat. Sell
   the meat to the folks who want to sneak him in.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:56:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

In mail you write:

> It reminds me of a sci-fi story (maybe it was a novel even)

It was *both*. The original storty was later expanded to a novel.

> where,
> one day, suddenly, the speed of light changed. It want up by some
> fraction of a percent. Scientist figured that the Earth had been in
> a "slow" region of space. Entering the "slow" region had killed
> the dinosaurs, as suddenly all chemical reactions went awry due to
> different energy levels. The big plot point that when the speed of light
> went back up, everyone got really, really smart since their brains all
> worked just fractionally faster. Chaos ensues when everyone realizes
> that their job sucks and they all want to be a lot more fulfilled (maybe
> it was a social commentary, I read it when I was young...)

"Brain Wave" by Poul Anderson.

One nasty side effect is that *everything* got smarter. This made a lot
of animals dangerous. Earth wound up populated by what had been "low
grade morons" before. The "normal" people (now super geniuses) went
elsewhere. And the remaining people had to do things like introduce a
religion among farm animals so that the animals were willing to be
"sacrificed".

> Anyway, maybe that's it - maybe the speed of light is .01% faster or slower
> in jumpspace. Maybe electron energy levels are slightly different.
> Maybe photons are more massive. (Maybe the Great Chuthlu serves drinks 
> on the Lido deck) Any of those things might mess with your mind... 

Any effects have to be *really* small. That's because changing almost
*any* physical constant by a *small* fraction of a percent will not
merely "mess with your mind", but make the existence of *matter*
impossible. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:19:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

In mail you write:

>
> Ethan Henry writes 
>>[nice article on NMR and traveller-style description of NMR imaging]
>
> It's interesting to try and think of some other medical imaging technologies
> that might come into play at high tech levels. Possibly damper-style 
> manipulation of the strong force could be used for a nuclear scanner - 
> either to induce mild radioactivity in specific normally-stable isotopes 
> to locate them in the body (like a PET scanner, which uses positron-emitting
> decay in some radioisotope who's name escapes me, but without the requirement
> for injecting the positron-emitter) or through resonances in the strong force
> itself (conservation of energy implies that how much power damping/augmenting
> the nuclear force requies is a function of what material is used...) 
>
> Then there are neural activity scanners, which are currently pretty
> ill-defined; and maybe there would be a roll for grav scanners in medical
> applications, if they're precise enough, to chart out interior density/
> composition.

Well, if you can build a sufficiently sensitive EEG (or equivalent
using other technologies), you should be able to map brain activity
*very* well. Which has a lot of medical uses.

Combine with some of the other scanners mentioned, and you should be
able to monitor whatever goes on in the body to unreal levels of detail.

At high TLs it should be easy to spot anything in the body that is not
working normally, as well as foreign objects. And, much to the
discomfort of players, *reliable* lie detectors should be available.
That is, they'll be able to determine if the subject is telling what he
believes to be the truth. Obviously, no device can detect that you are
honestly mistaken about something.

I suspect that such devices won't be allowed in court on many worlds,
but that doesn't stop people from using them for other purposes. Such
as military use for interrogating prisoners. Or people using them to
interrogate captured player characters (and players using them on
captured NPCs). 

Sure, you don't *have* to answer questions. And unless they want to
risk leaving traces that can be detected (almost *any* sort of "abuse"
would show up on a med scan), in most cases folks will be reluctant to
try forcing you to answer. But a lot can be told from what you *won't*
answer. And if they don't have to worry about abusing you, well... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:29:19 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

In a message dated 97-10-28 08:22:39 EST, you write:

<<  Those of you who've fired it; how bad was the recoil?  >>

I have not actually fired it, but I have fired the Lee-Enfield .303. This is
the only weapon I will ever admit to being scared of.  At the 1995 Soldier of
Fortune convention here in Las Vegas, a firepower demo was performed by a man
who fired both.  He had no problem at all apperantly with the SMLE...but need
medical attn to his shoulder at the scene.  This man was a large (6'3, 285#
football player type)  He was heard to say he would never again fire a weapon
like that.  He dislocated his shoulder by not following proper firing
procedure apparently.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:24:04
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Yet more piracy

At 02:14 AM 29/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>

>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:53:06 -0500 (EST)
>From: SemoFetus@aol.com
>Subject: Piracy, Transponders, and You.
>
>>two options: He can jump into a system with his transponder on, in which
>case
>>he won't be able to take advantage of any prey, or he can jump in with his
>>transpponder off, in which case he has blown any chance of doing legitimate
>>business if he dosen't find an easy target. (Btw. according to canon it is
>>illegal even to install an on-off switch on your transponder; I don't use
>>that in my campaign universe, but it's the official rule).
>
>Transponders were something I've always had a problem with more or less in
>Traveller.  They make sense in the broad scheme of things:  the Imperium
>could find out who was there in the system.  That makes sense.
>
>However, I hardly think fringe traders would find this acceptable for just
>that reason.  And this isn't just a free trader concern either.  There are
>several megacorps that have bases and factories outside of the Imperium
>(susag jumps to mind).
>
>I mean, even if you were armed, would you want to jump into a non-Imperial
>system with a transponder activated?  Of course not!
>
>I think transponders should be overhauled before piracy eliminated.
>
>>Not unless they are at war.
>
>No, naval forces at the borders will have bigger fish to fry.  Coreward, the
>Imperium is not at "war" with the Vargr, but there are many incursions into
>Imperial space.  That would be the first priority of the Navy.  Granted, it
>would be difficult to tell Imperial piracy from Vargr piracy on a ship's
>scanner, so you'd have a good chance of being vaporized by a large ship.
>
>On the Zhodani border I'm sure alot of manpower goes into monitoring Zhodani
>ship movements, even when they're not at war.
>
>>There are two ways to suppress pirates. One is to hunt them down in their
>>lairs and ground them into dust. There are canonical examples of the
>>Imperium doing just that, but I'm quite ready to postulate situations
>>where that is not possible, like some of the ones you suggested. The
>>second method is to always have a patrol ship close enough to catch or
>>at least drive off the pirate. Historically this was made difficult by
>>the fact that there were always far more places to patrol than ships
>>available to do the patrolling. A ship could only watch as far as the
>>horizon (30 miles diameter or so, IIRC). 
>

>From: SemoFetus@aol.com


>I think the Cr500 per head is too high.  After reading through Trillion
>Credit Squadron, which is where the figure comes from, I have decided the
>number doesn't _work_.  TCS is a set of wargame rules with simplified wargame
>economics. As such doesn't reflect proper balance.
>
>In addition, it just doesn't fit well with the Imperium.  It seems to be more
>geared towards smaller pocket empires battling each other than anything else.
>
>If I am to use the Cr500 tax rate, then I'll argue that it is the _total_
>imperial tax rate, and _everything_ comes out of it.  The XBoats, the
>bureaucracy, Imperial colonization projects, naval depots, scout waystations,
>scout bases, imperial run starports, imperial colonies, big navy ships, etc
>etc.

Cr1 per taxpayer for a world with 1 billion people is 1000 megacredits a
year. 1000 megacredits a year will support a lot of armed starships.

>
>I'd be slightly more inclined to accept this figure.  Psychologically it
>doesn't sit well because the majority of the population aren't spacefarers,
>and would be, IMHO, less inclined to like paying Imperial taxes.  Most would
>be invisible to the common man (traders and brokers are taxed for goods,
>which is passed on in cost to the consumer).  However, I would think that the
>less interstellar trade on a world (the lower the starport), the less
>Imperial taxes they'd pay.  As a result, these places would be less patrolled
>(the Imperium has always struck me as being somewhat mercenary, especially
>now with the Milieu:0 book).  Some trade would be done, mainly by tramp
>freighters, and some piracy would, or could exist.  So a flat Cr500 just
>doesn't work.
>

This is as relevant an argument as saying that people living in the Midwest
wont like and therefore shouldnt pay taxes for the US Navy.

You pay taxes, and the Imperial Navy provides security. Stop paying taxes,
and life starts getting less secure.

How the Imperium levies taxes (whatever their level and purpose), well
that's an interesting question. They could do it through taxing
interstellar trade, but that would discourage interstellar trade so I
suspect they'd just invoice planetary governments and tell them to come up
with the money. Less legitimacy issues that way.

>
>I'm not going to assume yearly maintenance is 20%.  I'm going to assume that
>maintenance is 10%, as TCS states.  Actually, the number I *was* using was
>0.01%, which is just as low as merchant ships.  Crew costs are relatively
>cheap, granted.  But the crew on the ship are not the only crew, AND, high
>tech warships _will_ pay alot more money for maintenance than tramp
>freighters.  Just the way things are.

*shrug* it cancels out. If you assume Cr500 a year taxes and maintainence
at 30% per annum, you get the same size fleet as Cr170 a year taxes and
maintainence at 10% per annum. You still get a lot more starships and
spaceships than you need to defend out to the 100 diameter limit.

The 9.98% difference in annual maintainence costs hires all the IN
bureaucrats, pays for the gold-plated Admirals Shore Command Facilities,
maintains all those Naval Bases and so on.

>
>And I'm not so sure that the Navy gets repaired "easier" than pirates do.
> Cheaper?  Sort of.  The navy's still paying, but they're paying out of the
>tax pool.  The pirates are paying out of the lucrative pirate trade pool.
>

Of course the Navy gets repaired easier. Any civilian facility that can
repair a naval vessel will, with no questions. Any civillian vessel that
gets heavily battle damaged is going to have a paper trail established with
INI or the IISS or whatever other Imperial Bureaucracy gets line
responsibility for piracy intelligence.

Your name shows up as someone who gets into too many fights and some people
want to have a quiet word with you.

>As far as easier, I would bet that pirate ships tend to be lower tech, so
>easier and cheaper to repair (a TL 12 sensor is easier than a TL 15 one, for
>example).  Further, it'll be easier for a TL 12 ship to find a port to repair
>in then a TL 15 naval vessel.  Just the way the Imperium lays.

True. There is also a good argument for the Navy to procure it's low-threat
mission ships at lower TL too, for the same reasons. Lower tech also
corresponds to a disadvantage in combat - could be embarressing if your
TL10 pirate hits a TL12 armed merchant.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:19:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Jump Drives in FF&S version 2.

I'm looking at the Jump Drive section in FF&S 2. It says

   ... The amount of energy required to initiate a jump ie equal to 
   64MJ per cubic meter per parsec jumped. This energy must be 
   provided to the drive in an hour or less (meaning that a starship 
   must have 0.018MW of power plant per cubic meter per jump number).

This means that a jump 1 200dton ship must have a 50.4Mw of powerplant
to be fired for one hour before jump. Have many of you ship designers 
actually taken this into account for your ships? This could mean a lot
in a combat situation.   



Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:46:41 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Oaths (WAS: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government)

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 01:11 pm 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> >>
> >>
> >> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:42:01 +0800
> >> From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> >> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Fealty is always (with the exception of Oaths to the  Emperor) sworn to
> the
> >> >office, not to the person filling it.  There are provisions for
> personal oaths,
> >> >but they are not part of the office.  Fealty flows upward from one
> level to the
> >> >next, never through the same level.  (i.e. even if there are two barons
> >> >administering a system, neither will swear to each other, only to the Duke
> >> above
> >> >them.)
> >>
> >> Interesting post.  Funny thing about oaths.  Traditionally, oths are
> >> personal oths.  These are the only ones that make much sense.  (Even the
> >> Whermacht made a personal oath of allegiance to Hitler).  In the UK and
> most
> >> commonwealth armed forces you take a personal oath. The reason behind this
> >> is presumably that all institutions require to have their requirements
> >> interpreted.  An oath to say serve and protect the Democratic Republic of
> >> Kafiristan means nothing unless you know who speaks for it and decides what
> >> ought to be done.  One solution is to presume it is simply lawful commands
> >8><---------------
> >American tradition is a bit different.
> >[Approximate quote] 'I swear (or affirm) to uphold and defend the
> >Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
> >domestic, to bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and to obey the
> >orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed
> >over me.'  Followed by yada yada about taking this obligation under free
> >will with no coercion blah blah blah.  This is the enlistment oath.  I
> >think the officers' is basically the same, but leaves out the bit about
> >'officers appointed over me'.
> >
> >I'm not an expert on it, but I suspect the whole oath to a person thing
> >was dropped in favor of an oath to an ideal, or the institutional
> >representation of that ideal (the constitution). The whole theory of
> >co-government of equals by equals makes it difficult to support the idea
> >of an oath of fealty to an individual.
> 
>         FWIW, the oath I took as an American military officer is neither to a
> person nor to a government nor other body, but to an ideal:
> 
>         "I, David J. Golden, having been appointed a Second Lieutenant in the
> United States Air Force, do solemnly swear that I will uphold and defend
> the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
> domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I
> take this oath freely, without mental reservation or purpose of evasion;
> and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office I am
> about to enter. So help me God."
> 
>         (the wording may be off _just_ a hair ... it's been almost ten years ...)
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


Sounds word for word to me.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:46 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Imperial Nobility

I agree with the comments made recently about the nobility. The bottom line
(I think) is this:


The nobility are intended to be a body of trustworthy individuals, upon
whom the Emperor can rely to carry out his intentions. This goes for lowly
knights cruising the frontier in their armed yachts, and archdukes who
administer Domains in the Emperor' s name.

The Imperium actively encourages adventuring among the young nobility, both
as a means of gaining experience and because the noble and his entourage
'carry the Imperial torch' with them. They can be relied upon to uphold
Imperial principles, act as a fire brigade, and take on missions that crop
up suddenly. This is quite a responsibility. 

Of course, there are fools among the nobility. These have to be got out of
the way, perhaps by sending them on long pleasure cruises, or a figurehead
post where the noble can be relied upon to goof off and leave the work to
someone competent. What gets dangerous is when one of these playboys gets
landed with a 'real' job....

Martin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:26:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What else?

In mail you write:

> Well, there's always the 'Dark Star' approach...strap on a vac suit, stand
> on your board and surf on in...;-)
>
> Sadly enough, I could probably work up something like this that would
> work...clamps on the board, some sort of ablative surface, a windscreen of
> some sort to keep you from being blown off as you pass Mach 2, winglets
> that pop out as you get slowed down from an impossible speed to merely
> insane to give you some sort of control. 

I guess you haven't seen any "skyboards" being used. Yes, there are
folks crazy enough to use something that resenbles a
snowboard/surfboard after they jump out of a plane.

And you don't need an ablative surface. Most sky surfers would hate the
idea of a one use board. Use something like the thermal tiles on the
shuttle, with a coating that "seals" the surface and toughens it. That
way you can re-use your favorite board. 

If you are going with single use boards, when you get low enough to use
antigrav or a parachute, you cut the board loose after designating a
target. It sails on down and smashes it.

> He he heh...I can see it now...an insane company of drop
> troops...screaming down into the atmosphere..."Ride of the Valkyries"
> blasting...screaming "Charlie don't surf!"

I wonder if it'd be possible to get your velocity low enough for a
water landing? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:43:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Top Ten SF authors...

As there is a collection of Top Ten Authors, here are mine:

Philip Kindred Dick	(That's the all time first place for me)
Robert Sheckley		(Wonder why I didn't see him on the mailing list
			 till now. "A Ticket to Tranai" shows a good
			 example for some twisted law/government level)
Isaac Asimov		(Do I have to say more? Only that R. Daneel Olivaw 
			 is my favorite SF Character) 
Alfred Bester		("Project Luna" being my favorite of him)
Robert Anson Heinlein	(Sorry, he's coming that late, but I didn't read 
			 much of him until now, "Starship Trooper" being
			 planned ... but I know "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress")
Alfred Elton van Vogt	(Fine short stories - not seen much here till now)
Edmond Hamilton		(Remember the Captain Future Series? Pure Space Opera)
William Gibson		(Not directly for his Cyberspace stories but for the
                         one titled "The Gernsback Continuum")
Carl Amery		(I wonder if he's known here, a german author 
			 with good alternative histories)
Daniel Keyes		(His book "The Touch" left me thinking a while - 
			 there are some coincidences with reality) 

Not representative, maybe, but that's what appealled most to me.
I didn't read much SF the last time (Traveller not counted), so these 
were the ones who came to my mind perhaps after some years I read them.
I think they are my favourites.

L.A.
(has anyone got a good signature for me?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:57:40 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 
> and it's Fritz _Lieber_, not Liebler, like someone I work with and whose
> name I write much more often :-/
> 
Sure, It isn't written Fritz _Leiber_? I read a collection of him and I 
am very sure of my memory ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:20:27 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney):

> If you are just tuning in, I previously stated that I considered the
> existence of a separate, and distinct, list within the list (Traveller
> Mailing List [TML]) called the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  I had
> said that this "other" TML is a dissident minority and that it was sad
> that nothing could be done about it.

I'd say there was a disaffected majority who love Traveller (playing, 
reffing, arguing about/discussing. building honking great weapons 
for) but are not entirely happy about all of IG's output to date. OK, 
have really slated some products (First Survey, Starships) but have 
been very positive about others (Pocket Empires, Emperor's Arsenal).

TML has a highly literate "core" membership (by volume of post) with 
more years of Traveller experience between them than I care to think 
about.  (Me, I only played from the mid-eighties.)  They are highly 
critical, in the sense of literary criticism: informed, constructive 
and sometimes barbed comments.

The prevailing mood is that informed criticism is OK.  Sometimes 
frighteningly well informed criticism, indeed.  Now, do you really 
have a problem with that?  If so, tell us.


> Frankly, the whole TML would be better off if there were less gossip
> and flaming of the game.

IYNSHO.  I agree somewhat -- but the people you attack for this crime 
seem to be among the most ardent lovers of the game _Traveller_ on TML.
I respect their views on other subjects, and it seems reasonable to 
read what they write about the game they enjoy when it's negative as 
well as when it's positive.


> No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.

I can't wait for you and Doug to face off at GenCon.  Who's going to 
referee?  (JP and Craig are right out.)

Seriously, while I appreciate you have an extensive knowledge of 
Traveller, consider that others may also have such knowledge AND 
STILL DISAGREE WITH YOU.  I see a lot of scientific papers saying 
"such-and-such are incorrect" (only rather more indirectly) but none 
saying "so-and-so is such an obvious know-nothing lowlife" even when 
there is a very polite but bitter disagreement going on.

It is bad form to rubbish the knowledge of people you don't know.
It's also pretty stupid if you want them to listen to what you say.
It's even dumber if you happen to be wrong, in their opinion.


> "Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
> balanced.

Balanced between what and what?  If it's an assessment of the merits 
and demerits of a product, then it should include positive and 
negative points, but they need not be explicit.  They will always be 
the reviewer's opinion.

If I review something I'm usually pretty harsh: I point out 
infelicities of phrase, less-than-impeccable grammar, misuse of 
commas, and so forth.  At the end, the very end, comes a note saying 
"Great piece of work, but needs some minor changes to be better."  
Many people on TML review like this.  They want everything to be 
perfect and point out the flaws as they see them.

A former colleague's fiancee is a Special Needs teacher i.e. deals 
with the less able and more disruptive junior school pupils.  er 
approach is "Well, you haven't got all the letters right... let's 
tick all the ones you *have* got right, shall we?"  This approach is 
very good for some situations, but does require detailed attention on 
the part of the listener.  IG doesn't have a good record on listening 
to TML, even when things are phrased nicely...


[Ethan Henry:]

> >Quite simply, you have to be trolling. Your statement goes so much 
> >against the way that reviewers of any sort work that it can't possibly
> >be anything else.
> 
> I've already stated that I feel that there is no balance, supported by
> reading some of the TML posts, and don't feel obliged to address any
> perceived drawbacks, especially when I perceive *NONE*.  Of course, if
> you'd like to compose my reviews, I'll have to disappoint you.

What, does IG's publicity staff do that for you? ;-)

> >It's like having me post that I think that real 
> >men realize that finite element solutions to mechanical engineering
> >problems are inheritently flawed and that those who avoid closed-form
> >analytical solutions are without a spine. It's just so deeply wrong!
> 
> Well, that would depend upon the size of "h".  No, it is not an issue
> that I might be without spine for preferring Newton's method in "n"
> dimensions solving the gradient elements of the jacobian for a non-
> finite solution.  Having said that, the finite solution is good if it
> meets your tolerance criteria.  That is what is important.  Anything
> else is wasted cycles.  On the other hand, if you need more precision,
> then my "spineless" gaussian elimination might be the only way. :)

No, no, no.  Ethan's point is (I believe) that the method of arguing 
is flawed.  It's OK to prefer finite element solutions to analytical, 
or vice versa, but it's not OK to say "Using approximate methods of 
integration is worse than worshipping Satan, voting National Front, 
sexually assaulting nuns and small children and liking dogs better 
than cats." (except maybe as a reductio ad absurdam)  It's an ad 
hominem argument.  It's roughing the passer.  It's like the base 
runner interfering with the second baseman's throw.

The argument may also be wrong, but that's kind of secondary.


> Also, if this is going (errantly) the way it did with Dave Golden this
> summer, improperly constructed views of my person don't account for a
> student that is 41 and has played Traveller nearly half his life.

As I said a few weeks ago, I wish I were a student again and hence
knew everything.

> As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
> to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
> to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
> of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

Apologies in advance for the following paragraphs:

Look, it's very simple.  This is about communication.  The idea is 
for you to tell us things in such a way that we understand what you 
tell us.  Savvy?  Capisce?  Now, if we don't seem to understand what 
you're saying, either you can try to explain differently, or you can 
give up.  If we understand but don't agree (which is neither an 
insult to you nor a sign of ignorance by your readers) you just have 
to live with it, or argue a case in a civil manner.

I believe I understand a large fraction of what you say on TML.  I 
just happen not to agree with it.  I _challenge_ you to argue 
properly or not at all.


> Don't expect line-by-line opinions from me--that is for people who can't
> stand having their opinions challenged, and a particularly bad habit that
> is easy to get in with e-mail commo.  (I only did it here because it was
> all worth commenting on to explain something I said from over a week ago.)

I agree that you can over-dissect arguments made by email, but this is 
not a sufficient reason not to read them and comment critically upon 
them.

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:53:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:
> So, even though all people with the the ranks them as a Knight are referred to as
> 'Sir', there are specific titles for the various levels.  How about this:
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight of Arizona (hereditary title with fiefdom)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight (hereditary title without a fiefdom)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight (nonhereditary title)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight for the venerable Arizona University (Administrative
>   Knight, including the institution where title is derived from)

The "Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight" is kind of plain by comparison, isn't it?

I think there would be several "orders" of the non-heriditary knighthood,
and the exact title would depend on the order that the knight was inducted
into.  Exactly which order would depend on who it was that knighted you, and
what it was that you did to get knighted.  Thus:

Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Order of the Emperor's Guard
  (for personal service to the Emperor or the Imperial household)
Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Legion of Anatares
  (Knighted by the Archduke of Antares, for service to the Domain)
Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Order of Starship and Sunburst
  (Imperial Navy officers are frequently knighted into this order)

These Orders would frequntly be abbreviated (particularly in
correspondance), so that you'd have:
Sir Bruce Johnson, OEG
Sir Bruce Johnson, LA
Sir Bruce Johnson, OSS

Players and referees should be encouraged to get creative with this, though
if someone comes up with the Order of the Knights Who Formerly Said 'Nee'!
(OKWFSN), they've probably gone too far ...  ;-)


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2028
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2029



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Worldbuilders programs
Re: Ten Essential Books
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
Re: hiwg - Re: New CSC Features
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: New CSC Features
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: java GAL now web-enabled
Criticism: Healthy and Necessary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:15:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> >         <g>  You ever play SJG's Car Wars?
> 
> All I want is a trunk-mounted PGMP-15 to "discourage" tailgaters.
> 
> BTW, you *do* realize that you can change the names a bit and put the
> entire Car Wars world on a planet somewhere in the Imperium, don't you?
> Another "fun" place to let the players visit.
> 
Has anyone got an idea which Psionic/Cyberpunk world in Traveller would 
be most appropriate to let my Players trample into a Shodowrun-like 
Adventure?

Just an idea, 
L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:15:00 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs

>Does anyone have or know where I could get either -
>a worldbuilders program (either DOS or Windows 3 or 95)
The DOS version of SYSGEN/Library is up on
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav. It is a few years old but does all
of WBH, including surface generation. Unfortunately it is also rather
unstable.
A Java version of Galactic, with the same functionality, can be run from
the web on http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/weaver/GALApplet.html. You need
a 1.1 browser. You can also run this on your local machine under W95 if you
upload Sun's runtime environment kit.

>or a spreadsheet in Lotus 123 format
I have a pretty good _ship design_ spreadsheet in 1-2-3...

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:18:00 GMT0
From: terry.williams@luton.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books

Hi,
	I liked the 10 books idea - mostly as I'm running rapidly out of things
my favorite authors have written (and as I've read a couple of decent sized 
books a week for the last 25 years its getting desperate :-))

Most of these will come as no surprise but I'm hoping to get a couple of books
out of this thread that I haven't read, there maybe something in this lot that
the younger readers haven't read,

These were what came off the top of my head (chosen out of my top 50 - the
smallest list I can really make without dropping any of my favorites off)

In no particular order

Frank Herbert - Dune 
Dan Simmons - Hyperion
Larry NIven - Tales of Known Space
Vernor Vinge - A Fire Upon the Deep
Robert Heinlen - The Puppetmasters
H. P Lovecraft - At the Mountains of Madness & other stories (okay its an
anthology. Sue me :-))
Philip K. Dick - The Man in the Highcastle
Ian Banks - The Use of Weapons (or the Player of Games I pesonally can't chose
between them)
Alfred Bester - Tyger, Tyger
The Complete Stanislaw Lem Vol I (includes The Chain of Chance, A Perfect
Vacuum, A Futuralogical Congress & Solaris - if you can find this buy it its a
wonderful collection).
Olaf Stapleton - First & last Men

Oops that seems to be eleven (well I allowed myself a 10% error!)

Could I also take a box of Terry Pratchet to keep warm with :-)


Terry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:28:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 XatoKuom@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-10-27 08:08:29 EST, you write:
> 
> << AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>  CTCCGACGACCAGCACCGATGGCACTCGAACGAGCACACCGACTGCGT
>  CTAGCAAGGCCTATCGCAATCATGATTCAGCCTCAGCTCATGCCCGAG
>  GCACCTATGATGATCCTAGCACTCGCAGCAAGTATGGCAGAACGACGT
>  CCAATGATCGCACAGCCTCTCCGAGCACCGGAGGCACCTATGGACCTC
>  GCAAGGATCCTTATGCCTCTCCTGCGTATGGCCATACACATGATGCGT
>  CTAGCACTCCAGCCGCGACTCCACGAGGCAAAGACTGCCAACAAAGCA
>  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >>
> 
> This is an RNA sequence the poly adenylated tail is a dead give away!!!!!!!!
> 
> Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)
> 
Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.

Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Tyrosine, Uranyl

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:29:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:
 
>   "If it has affected your mind, it will look real enough."
> 
> It reminds me of a sci-fi story (maybe it was a novel even) where,
> one day, suddenly, the speed of light changed. It want up by some
> fraction of a percent. Scientist figured that the Earth had been in
> a "slow" region of space. Entering the "slow" region had killed
> the dinosaurs, as suddenly all chemical reactions went awry due to
> different energy levels. The big plot point that when the speed of light
> went back up, everyone got really, really smart since their brains all
> worked just fractionally faster. Chaos ensues when everyone realizes
> that their job sucks and they all want to be a lot more fulfilled (maybe
> it was a social commentary, I read it when I was young...)

Brain Wave...by Poul Anderson

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:25:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, douglas wrote:

> 
> So, even though all people with the the ranks them as a Knight are referred to as
> 'Sir', there are specific titles for the various levels.  How about this:
> 
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight of Arizona (hereditary title with fiefdom)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight (hereditary title without a fiefdom)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight (nonhereditary title)
> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight for the venerable Arizona University (Administrative
> Knight, including the institution where title is derived from)
> 
> Would this be correct?

Yea, verily, and kneel when you say that, knave! ;-)

That's about right. Since the Knight as the lowest noble rank, is the
interface between noble and common, it'll be more complicated. All the
other ranks will probably be straightforward 'title-and-a-fief' sorts of
things.

Except, of course, for those impovershed nobility who've gambled away,
frittered away, blown away, or otherwise lost their incomes from the
fiefdom. Those will be uncommon in the early 3I when the nobility is being
chosen from the rich and influential, but later there should be quite a
number of them to provide needy GM's with helpful game hooks and colorful
NPC's.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1997 13:50:29 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published in
Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm certain
someone out there can briefly recapitulate.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1997 13:44:43 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: hiwg - Re: New CSC Features

>1) Stacking armour of different materials: I need a nice simple formula for
>adding 1cm of iron to 2cm of wood (for example), and then sloping it.

What about converting all armours to an equivalent thickness of steel, adding
the thicknesses, and converting back?  Not as simple, but would it work?

(This should be obvious, but I'm juggling several "significant events" right
now, and my common sense seems to be suffering.  Coding I can manage,
judgement is problematical.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

>There are many, many visual events which can affect the human nervous
>system.  Lights flashing at just the right rythym causing epileptic
>seizures are a good example.  The unusual nature of J-space could easily be
>said to do something even more drastic.  Remember: it isn't real.  J-Space
>doesn't exist, so trying to force it to obey the laws of the REAL universe
>makes no sense.  Have fun with it.


The epileptic seisure example is not so good, because a preexisting
condition exists. :-) There is no example of a visual stimuli, by itself,
causing a mental disorder like what is popularly conceived of as "insanity"
- -- personality disorders, schizophrenia, and the like -- in a normal
individual.

The statement that sparked this thread went along the lines of "while it
[seeing jumpspace] doesn't cause you to go insane, it sure doesn't help."
(I paraphrase) I contend that this is only true to the extent that looking
at any really disturbing visual stimuli in realspace "doesn't help" your
sanity.

Human senses are limited. Even if jumpspace were to be 5-, 6-, or even
10-dimensional, all you could percieve would be a 3-dimensional
manifestation of it (4, if you count seeing events evolve as "seeing"
time). I submit that there is no reason to believe that 3-dimensional
stimuli would cause insanity.

(If there was, then we could expect Imperial technology to be able to
replicate it (the holo that drove the Imperium insane ... :-). While this
is entirely cool for a setting with a horror or fantasy bent, it doesn't
seem so appropriate for a hard sf one.)

I have no problem with a handwave like jump dementia, or jump psychosis, or
whatever. But the mechanism should be appropriate -- and simple visual
perception just doesn't fit the bill.

(BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:00:13 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Colin Hutchinson wrote:

 > Interestingly you get the same problem with the 14.5mm KPV Russian Heavy
> machine Gun.  I designed one according to FF&S to check out the the limits
> of the design protocol.  It comes out as heavier and longer, by 20% or more
> from the figures given in Jane's Infantry weapons. ( I will post both
> figures as sonn as I can).
> Incidently, the KPV was designed around the round of the PTRS and PTRD AT
> Rifles, and has roughly twice the Muzzle energy of a .50 cal. (18000:32000
> Joules).  By the way, why is there no mechanism for water-coling?

Yeah, the PTRS is a big honking belted round so they can stuff a lot more
propellant in it.

This points out a problem that plagues all the design systems for firearms
I've worked with...all of them try to use linear (or close to linear)
functions to describe real-world processes that aren't linear. As energy
goes up in the real world, you don't necessarily need more mass in the
reciever, but differently designed recievers and different materials in
the reciever. 

FFS2 does allow the use of advanced materials in recievers,
but for very high energy weapons on the border between the firearm and
artillery things go screwy. (I wonder what would happen if I used the
artillery design sequence to make one of these rifles? It would be off the
low end of the scale, and would require some creative rules-bending.)

Having a third reciever design for 'high energy firearms' might help, but
that, too would have it's problems, by simply shifting that border to a
different energy range.

It's just something we have to live with: after all (despite what some
people say about it) FFS2 is a _simplified_ modelling system. One that is
accurate would require us to actually _design_ the weapons in question,
and believe me, that is _slightly_ more complex. :->

Water-cooling jackets were not included because there is no provison for
heat dissipation, or calculating the heat to dissipate in _any_ design.
The automatic weapons in FFS2 will fire at full auto until you rin out of 
ammunition, however unrealistic that might be.

I think cooling systems are just assumed to be there if neccesary. There's
nothing to staop anyone from tacking one on, it's just that you'll have to
pretty much wing it as far as what the stats would be. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:09:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

	Howdy!

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Victor J. Raymond wrote:

>  
> Re: Boys AT-Rifle
>  
> Ken wondered if I had fired one legally.  The answer is yes; this particular Boys had been rechambered for .50 cal. Browning.  Col. Castonguay assured me that the difference between .50 Browning and .55 BESA was miniscule; if anything, the Browning round had more kick.
>  
> Just another .02 credits
>  
	Hey, that's actually a keen idea (he ballistics between the two
are close enough - the .55 had just a hair more penetrating power)!  I
wish someone would find a German AT rifle <sigh>.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:06:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

Some Words to the NMR Theme 
(nothing to correct, the article was written fine).

As I studied Chemistry I have some experience with NMR, because we use it 
for chemical analysis of organic molecules. So I only want to add that 
not only Hydrogen is NMR-active, also is Carbon, Phosphor, Fluorine, etc.
But it's only special Isotopes of some elements that you can detect with 
NMR. (C-13 for example, or F-19, which is also the only isotope of 
Flourine existing).

There indeed is the possibility of analyzing proteins with the NMR Method 
and I know some Chemics just doing this. It's not perfectly now, but with 
increasing TL in Biochemistry and Computers, you should soon expect a true 
imaging device that can read your entire DNA by placing a sample of hair 
in it.

Additionally this seems to be an answer to the article honouring the 
mailing list of having readers that just do the things discussed in here.

Go on,
L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:05:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 11:00 pm 10/28/97 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
> >1) Stacking armour of different materials: I need a nice simple formula for
> >adding 1cm of iron to 2cm of wood (for example), and then sloping it.
> 
> 	I don't think it's possible, given the cubic root function Greg was forced
> into. IIRC, his advice for layered armor was to just take the larger of the
> two armor values.

What about resolving the armor values to the 'lowest common denominator'
and adding them...ie: lets say you have iron over wood, figure out the
thickness of wood that gives you the equivalent armor value of the iron,
add the thickness of the wood underlaying it, and calculate from there. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:07 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Well, I sent my previous post on this matter to Leroy as well
as to the TML, so I got it back by mail and I suppose that means 
I should say something. I will try to keep it short (though I think
I won't).

First of all, my previous message, while quite valid in its points
about the nature of criticism, was really just a plain old flame
for those who maybe missed the point. I am not a philosopher, although
it does seem like an interesting field. I would love to get deeper into
discussing the nature of criticism, but this isn't PML (Philosophy
Mailing List) and, frankly, I think Leroy is pretty set in his position,
so I'm not going to waste any more (ok, much more) time on it.

Doug Berry and Nick Munn have already made plently of points, so I'll
try not to reiterate too much of what they've said.

Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
> If you are just tuning in, I previously stated that I considered the

If you are just tuning in, tune out.

> existence of a separate, and distinct, list within the list (Traveller
> Mailing List [TML]) called the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  I had
> said that this "other" TML is a dissident minority and that it was sad
> that nothing could be done about it.
> 
> So, now that midterms are over, I'll start with the one reply that was
> worthy of an answer.

As Kenji would say - "Ooooohhhhh! Special!!!"

> Ethan, regarding the above...
> 
> I just call it social.  Afterall, we are talking about a game, not
> something that the masses will rebuild civilisation from after the
> fall.  Had the feedback been solicited, then that would be a different
> matter, and then more diplomacy could be used than what I have seen
> on the Traveller Maligning List (TML).  Since it was _unsolicited_,
> In call it lack of spine.  It is that simple.

Again, if we look at the way most movie and book reviewers work,
they make unsolicited (but not unappreciated) reviews and they are
under no obligation to know _anything whatsoever_ about the author.
Lots of people reviewed "Primary Colors" by the ever-popular
"Anonymous".

> No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.

Ugh. Come on. Most movie reviewers are not film makers. Most book
reviewers are not authors. As a matter of fact, I would go so far 
as to say that it's unlikely that, in the arts, there are ever 
reviews by peers. In scientific papers, it's a different story, but
I think that the closest comparison for a product like _Emperor's
Vehicles_ is, well, a book, so I think that the model set by book
reviews should apply to reviews of _EV_.

You, Doug or I can say anything we like about _EV_, without making
any statements about the author by implication. It's a review of
the _work_ not the _author_. I can say "This book is shit" to the
authors face. It isn't in any way "spineless". If you don't
agree with that, fine, but please, don't make too much noise when
people disagree with your reviews.

> "Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
> balanced.  Since you bring it up, I was reviewing the informal reviews
> of the Traveller Maligning List (TML) as unbalanced and maligning, so
> we are in this circle you see.

Forcing reviews to be "balanced" is the kind of advice you give grade 
school students for book reports. If the product is balanced, the review 
will be balanced. If the product is biased (say, biased towards being
useless) then the review will be biased (say, biased towards saying
the product is useless).

> However, to flame the game, is an issue of spine when you tell Loren
> what you thought of TNE (No matter how right you are) because after all,
> it _is_ a game.  We have lost sight of the fact that we derive hours
> of enjoyment from this game.  This all reminds me of sportsfans.

Whether it's a game, a book, a painting, a play or a piece of music,
they are all works by an author. We interact with them differently,
but they're all creative works. As creative works, they're received
by different people differently. I have every right to say, to anyone,
what my opinion of a work is. I resent you saying that I _cannot_
express my opinion. Also, can we keep Loren out of this? Unless I
am mistaken, Mr. Wiseman is an individual person, not some sort of
author-archetype. I am making a general point, not a specific one,
so it is a non-sequiter to drag in "Author X" and "Creative Work Y".

> >Honestly Leroy, what do you study in school?
> 
> Honestly Ethan, I see that of _little_ relevance for this discussion.

*Bingo* Did I mention that my last message was a flame? This is what's
know as a "cheap rhetorical flourish". Of course it has nothing to
do with the discussion! It's a thinly veiled attack on your credibility!

Keep up with me, boy.

> Also, if this is going (errantly) the way it did with Dave Golden this
> summer, improperly constructed views of my person don't account for a
> student that is 41 and has played Traveller nearly half his life.

Gee, maybe because they're improperly constructed!

> As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
> to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
> to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
> of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

Oh boy. "I challenge you to _understand_ my posts, rather than 
_interpret_..." (emphasis mine). I really wish I understood more
Habermas (and communicative philosophy in general) as I'm sure I'd
be able to rip yo to shreds for making some sort of bizzarze
dichotomy between  "understand" and "interpret". You sure are lucky
that I'm so poorly read.

Anyways, that is that. As Nick Munn said, in communication,
the onus is on the _comminicator_, not the communicatee (is there
such a word?) to make himself understood. If we have misunderstood you,
well, I hate to hurt your feelings, but IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!

Whew. I feel better now.

Back to "Ripping off your Shoulder" with your host, Rod Elliot.

Ethan

PS. huh huh - I said "onus". heh heh.  heh heh.
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:22:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Lars Adler wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 XatoKuom@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 97-10-27 08:08:29 EST, you write:
> > 
> > << AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
> >  CTCCGACGACCAGCACCGATGGCACTCGAACGAGCACACCGACTGCGT
> >  CTAGCAAGGCCTATCGCAATCATGATTCAGCCTCAGCTCATGCCCGAG
> >  GCACCTATGATGATCCTAGCACTCGCAGCAAGTATGGCAGAACGACGT
> >  CCAATGATCGCACAGCCTCTCCGAGCACCGGAGGCACCTATGGACCTC
> >  GCAAGGATCCTTATGCCTCTCCTGCGTATGGCCATACACATGATGCGT
> >  CTAGCACTCCAGCCGCGACTCCACGAGGCAAAGACTGCCAACAAAGCA
> >  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >>
> > 
> > This is an RNA sequence the poly adenylated tail is a dead give away!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)
> > 
> Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.
> 
> Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine, Uracil

Mark Seeman was right, I just had my biochem lesson a time back ... sorry.
 
 L.A.
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:46:45 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

At 10:56 PM 10/28/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> It reminds me of a sci-fi story (maybe it was a novel even)
>
>It was *both*. The original storty was later expanded to a novel.
>
>> where,
>> one day, suddenly, the speed of light changed. It want up by some
>> fraction of a percent. Scientist figured that the Earth had been in
>> a "slow" region of space. Entering the "slow" region had killed
>> the dinosaurs, as suddenly all chemical reactions went awry due to
>> different energy levels. The big plot point that when the speed of light
>> went back up, everyone got really, really smart since their brains all
>> worked just fractionally faster. Chaos ensues when everyone realizes
>> that their job sucks and they all want to be a lot more fulfilled (maybe
>> it was a social commentary, I read it when I was young...)
>
>"Brain Wave" by Poul Anderson.
>
>One nasty side effect is that *everything* got smarter. This made a lot
>of animals dangerous. Earth wound up populated by what had been "low
>grade morons" before. The "normal" people (now super geniuses) went
>elsewhere. And the remaining people had to do things like introduce a
>religion among farm animals so that the animals were willing to be
>"sacrificed".
>
	For me, the most interesting facet of this book was the long term
	reaction of the hero's wife/girl friend to the change -- some folks
	can't handle prosperity.
>
>> Anyway, maybe that's it - maybe the speed of light is .01% faster or slower
>> in jumpspace. Maybe electron energy levels are slightly different.
>> Maybe photons are more massive. (Maybe the Great Chuthlu serves drinks 
>> on the Lido deck) Any of those things might mess with your mind... 
>
>Any effects have to be *really* small. That's because changing almost
>*any* physical constant by a *small* fraction of a percent will not
>merely "mess with your mind", but make the existence of *matter*
>impossible. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>


Tim Connors

All probabilities are 50% -- either a thing will happen or it won't.
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

 . . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:33:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: java GAL now web-enabled

I tried running it this morning and got:

Applet: ttg.gal.GalMain can't start: class ttg/gal/GalMain got a security
violation:method verification error.

This using Netscape Communicator 4.03 on a Win95 system.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:21:10 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Criticism: Healthy and Necessary

Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps you should start calling up English and Literary Criticism
> >departments at universities around the world to give them your opinion.
> >I'm sure they'll be quite interested in the fact that literary criticism
> >is essentially the work of men and women without "too much of a spine".
> 
> No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.

<counting to 10>

Leroy, you don't mean to insinuate that members of the TML are *NOT*
_knowledgeable_ about what makes a rpg supplement worth buying, do you?

That's what the above comment implies to me -- you better don some
asbestos underwear...

> It is frequently solicited as well.  With a game, sales is the
> solicitation.

There are not-so-friendly local gaming stores which don't allow you to
browse books cuz they shrink-wrap 'em. If one orders by mail, or simply
doesn't have the time to give a book a thourough looking-over in the
store, one doesn't know whether the supplement is worth the 30 clams
(canadian clams, in my case).

To all members of the TML: Keep reviewing products!

They are useful to *me* because I can't afford to buy _every_ supplement
that comes out -- I really don't play the game much anymore. Also, it
ticks me off when I buy something of no use or of little value.

<snip>

> >By extension, if I, or anyone else, thinks that your review stinks, then
> >we are free to review the review and say what we like about it. I have
> >no idea why you think that any sort of review is a personal attack on
> >the author.
> 
> "Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
> balanced.  Since you bring it up, I was reviewing the informal reviews
> of the Traveller Maligning List (TML) as unbalanced and maligning, so
> we are in this circle you see.

??? "Balanced" ???

Most reviews I have read on the TML have been honest and critical, and
frequently give glowing praise to the *authors* of the book. The layout
people, proofreaders, and actual production staff on the other hand . .
.

I've read many a "balanced" review on this list. I've made opinions of
what is important to certain reviewers by their posts, and judge each
review accordingly, taking into account *my* tastes. Just because what's
important to *them* isn't important to *you* is no reason to call the
review "unbalanced".

> >Quite simply, you have to be trolling. Your statement goes so much
> >against the way that reviewers of any sort work that it can't possibly
> >be anything else.
> 
> I've already stated that I feel that there is no balance, supported by
> reading some of the TML posts, and don't feel obliged to address any
> perceived drawbacks, especially when I perceive *NONE*.  Of course, if
> you'd like to compose my reviews, I'll have to disappoint you.

OK, apparently you think the goose can call the gander black and what's
good for the kettle is not good for the pot. ooops... getting flustered
;->

It's perfectly fine to state that you saw no flaws in a product. That's
jim-dandy. And I, reading your review, formed an opinion of what was
good about the product, and why, according to your taste and
interpretation.

That's just super.

Someone reading your review posts their own, pointing out why they
believed the things *you* liked were actually flaws in the product. I
read, and try to understand this person's points, taking into account
what I know about his priorities.

Great! Awesome! Another point of view. I process...

This is called healthy debate. I try to filter out personal grudges,
tone, and bad feelings. I try to get to the heart of the disagreement.
The facts.

Knowing what's important to *me*, I form my *own* opinion, which
amazingly enough, is _still_ subject to change.

Taking EV as a concrete example, to me it is flawed. *Every* other
vehicle supplement *ever* produced for Traveller (that I have, anyway)
included info on how many people it takes to crew it, how much fuel it
needs, and at what TL it is produced. I might buy a used copy if my FLGS
has their half-price on used item sale, (picked up an extra TNE boxed
set for $21 and Belter for $3.50 last time) but it's not worth 30
smackeroons to me.

<snip>

> However, to flame the game, is an issue of spine when you tell Loren
> what you thought of TNE (No matter how right you are) because after all,
> it _is_ a game.  We have lost sight of the fact that we derive hours
> of enjoyment from this game.  This all reminds me of sportsfans.

Do you *really* think that Loren didn't want to hear about what others
thought of TNE? Do you think he only wants to hear praise, and not
criticism? Do you really want to treat him like a mushroom? (keep in the
dark, feed manure)

HEY LOREN! If you're listening. I really liked the vast majority of TNE
supplements. What I liked best was the consistancy. For example,
Brilliant Lances was easy to integrate with the game, and used the
underlying FF&S sequence. Movement was a tad cumbersome, though. Battle
Rider's vectored movement was better than that chart on the combat
sheet. Weapons, vehicles and starships were included in the back of many
supplements, and were based on the same FF&S sequence.

It was good that when mistakes were made, you always tried to issue
errata in a timely manner. The little errata booklet included with FF&S
was very useful. And the article boosting plasma weapons in Challenge
was great.

The setting held promise, but was too gritty and milataristic for my
tastes. Ah well. The black curtain bit was too much. The game mechanics
were too heavy on detail. A friend who borrowed the rulebook couldn't
absorb it all. It was really an rpg for the experienced, and those
unafraid of a lot of reading.

I didn't actually *play* the game that much, but I bought nearly every
supplement. They were all interesting, and good reading. I played with
FF&S design, chuckled at those pesky hivers, and we experimented with
the combat system and the starship combat boxed sets.

I look forward to your GURPS Traveller supps. I may actually never buy
GURPS, but I anticipate buying your supplements.

I know that Marc doesn't like personal attacks on IG. I appreciate that.
But he does want to know where mistakes were made, and he doesn't want
that to happen anymore, as evidenced by his last post re: Aliens, and
the extra time and feedback he solicited for T4.1. Feedback on quality
is all-important to a successful businessperson.

> As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
> to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
> to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
> of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

Being a little short in psionic ability, the best I can do is interpret
your words in a manner most consistant with the rest of the english
speaking world.

If you feel you are being misunderstood, perhaps you should get someone
else to read your post and tell you in his or her own words what you
have said. That way, you will know if everyone understands what you mean
to say.

> As for continuing the discussion of the issues of Traveller Maligning with
> some of you, I'll be happy to if it is worthy of a response, but I am
> starting to get complaints that I have not worked on my web page since May
> (just before "learning" the whole TML experience).

Why isn't anyone complaining to *me* that my site hasn't been worked on
since last spring? Whattssa matter everyone? Don't you care about *my*
website?!

> Don't expect line-by-line opinions from me--that is for people who can't
> stand having their opinions challenged, and a particularly bad habit that
> is easy to get in with e-mail commo.  (I only did it here because it was
> all worth commenting on to explain something I said from over a week ago.)

Don't expect me to respond to every point and every post. I only respond
to those things which seem interesting, silly, false, and/or simply
blockheaded.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2029
***********************************

Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2030



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
UH?
Kenneth
Re: hiwg - Re: New CSC Features
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: KPV 14.5
Re: Ten Essential Books
Re: Weber's Universe
Re: Piracy - the new era 
Re: Economic data/Piracy
Re: Where is piracy safe?
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Piracy -- The new era!
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:08 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Leroy writes
>[various things defending his rhetorical style]

Speaking as part of the Silent Majority, I'd just like to say that 
based on the review fragments about EV written by various people on the list
whom I respect, I'm highly unlikely to buy it. Leroy's defence ("Look at the
picture if you want to know what the crew is!"), on the whole, makes me 
even less likely to buy it. To some extent this can be taken as a measure of 
the success of Leroy's communication skills. 

And I would note that lots of the people who are criticizing EV aren't 
mindless IG-haters; one of the most common comments seems to have been
how poor it was compared to Emporer's Arsenal, which nearly everyone likes
a great deal.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:24 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Recoil in shame and horror --

- -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!

Currently manufactured by the Sayat Board of Organization and Oversight for
Munitions, the PMPP was originally designed as a novelty item for the
domestic market.  It is, however, exported in some quantity to the
Imperium, where it is popular with collectors and certain paramilitary
organizations.

The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
numerous accidental discharges had resulted in injury and death.  A variety
of manual or voice-activated triggering devices are available from the
manufacturer and many local retailers.  The extremely popular "pop-up"
holster is now factory-packaged with each weapon, though it requires fairly
extensive adjustment and custom fitting to function correctly.  The
Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on whether
the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.

Users should also be warned that "boinging" and lateral wobble makes firing
in motion or turning rapidly a highly inaccurate and dangerous endeavour.
Owners are strongly urged not to attempt to emulate usage of the PMPP seen
in action/adventure holovids.  Furthermore, after firing the barrel remains
superheated, and incautious users may burn themselves.  Finally, the PMPP's
extreme recoil requires that the shock-absorbing harness be worn properly
to minimize the possibility of severe internal damage.  SayBOOM are said to
be investigating the application of gravitic stabilization to further
improve accuracy and aim.

Weapon Type:      TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm

Ammunition:       2.8x8.5 cm CPC
Pulse Energy:     90 kJ
Weapon Length:    30.4 cm
Weapon Weight:    4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine

Weapon Price:     Cr1322
Magazine Weight:  1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty

Features:         Laser sight, shock absorber

Range 30m, recoil 6.266

Mark Miller's Traveller
Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325

- --------
Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:16:03 -0600
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:58:15 -0600
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> Subject: Re: Subject: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
> 
> Matthew McLaughlin wrote:
> 
> >
> >How about doing a Model 5 (the 'Jungle Carbine').  I'd like to see the
> >recoil numbers for that.  I already know what it feels like.  Of course,
> >that buttpad I have on there is just to place it well for aiming,
> >nothing to do with recoil ;-).  I'll get the measurement if you need
> >them.
> 
>         You have a Jungle Carbine?  Cool.  In my cadet corps, there was
> general consensus that that was our fave bolt-action WWII rifle.  Gimme
> whatever stats you have, and I'll bend FF&S to fit'em.

Yep.  It's my deer rifle.  It's good for the woods in Missouri, where
there's lots of undergrowth.  The only problem is the bloody thing's
sighted for 100+ yards, so I have to adjust a little at closer (hunting)
ranges.  One of these days I'll get a long front blade installed.

I was planning on getting you the measurements the old fashioned way
(ruler and scale), but with some of the references I've seen kicking
around on the list, I'm sure someone can just look them up.  (Which
would be greatly appreciated... hint, hint :-)  If they're not
available, I'll measure it.

> 
> 
> >> Feed:                   5-round box
> >
> >I thought this was 10-round?
> >
> 
> 
>         Could very well be.  My recollections are about 15 years old at
> this point, so I could have been wrong.
> 

It's a 10-round magazine fed by 5-round speed clips.  The original mag
on mine was cut down to 5 rounds by a previous owner to meet the 5-round
limit for hunting rifles.  I wish he'd cut down an after market one
instead, and kept the original.  Eh, bien, c'est la vie!

> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 

Matt McL

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:20:09 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: UH?

Can anyone please explain to me what this passage means?

Start Quote: 
.... a reductio ad absurdam)  It's an ad 
hominem argument.  It's roughing the passer.  It's like the base 
runner interfering with the second baseman's throw.
End Quote.

It starts in Latin and ends in some foreign language!

(in fun)

Martin.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:35:02 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Kenneth

Sorry to put a private post on the list, but It might be the only way to
get through....

I've tried to Email you privately, Kenneth. 
My server claims your address doesn't exist.
I guess you've changed address? 

[Looks like job-quitting is catching. My 'boss' has also just leaped off
the corporate ladder.]

Martin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:28:37 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: hiwg - Re: New CSC Features

At 01:44 PM 10/29/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>1) Stacking armour of different materials: I need a nice simple formula for
>>adding 1cm of iron to 2cm of wood (for example), and then sloping it.
>
>What about converting all armours to an equivalent thickness of steel, adding
>the thicknesses, and converting back?  Not as simple, but would it work?

There is a question of whether two 1cm layers is better or worse than a 2cm
layer.  IIRC, you are better off with two, especially if there is even the
smallest gap between them, but I do not know.

The way I played it when I needed to was to assume that one added them
together as layers of hard steel, and the interface added a bonus.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:42:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
> described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
> white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).

Thanks.  I was also thinking that (uh-oh), to make such a concave mirrored
reflection seem even stranger, you could introduce stray power surges that
make their way to the jump bubble due to *minor* impurities in the liquid
hydrogen.  They could create momentary bulges or ripples that could give
the jump bubble reflection a little "life" to it.  It would also help to
create some discomfort for anyone viewing it, driving home the notion that
the jump bubble is very delicate indeed, and that it is all that stands
between them and their doom.  Bwah-hah-hah-hah!



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:46:06 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

Wow, meantion the plot of some long-forgotten SF book
and *pow*. Maybe I should go try to find a copy
of "Brain Wave" so I can re-read it.

Anyhow, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Any effects have to be *really* small. That's because changing almost
>*any* physical constant by a *small* fraction of a percent will not
>merely "mess with your mind", but make the existence of *matter*
>impossible. 

Ok, sure. But it could be the root of jumpace sickness and
dementia. A really, really tiny change in any one of the hundreds
of physical constants could alter biochemistry just enough to cause
a subtle change. I agree, it wouldn't be very large at all. It would
probably be unmeasurable. Thus the mystery...

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:15:45 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Ethan Henry wrote:
[snip]
>Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
[snip]
>> So, now that midterms are over, I'll start with the one reply that was
>> worthy of an answer.
>
>As Kenji would say - "Ooooohhhhh! Special!!!"

Actually, the sheer joy of hearing from Leroy again overwhelmed me, and I
simply fainted, quietly.

>> As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
>> to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
>> to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
>> of us will be surprised if you can not. :)
>
>Oh boy. "I challenge you to _understand_ my posts, rather than
>_interpret_..." (emphasis mine). I really wish I understood more
>Habermas (and communicative philosophy in general) as I'm sure I'd
>be able to rip yo to shreds for making some sort of bizzarze
>dichotomy between  "understand" and "interpret". You sure are lucky
>that I'm so poorly read.

The hermeneutic movement and moment are, I think, a highly distasteful
subject to introduce to this list... unlike the design of a 90kJ fusion
dildo I just posted.

Has anyone designed a class of starships named after po-mo luminaries?
It's high time.  The Deconstructor-class battlecruiser... oh yes.

Heh heh.  I said "posted". Heh heh.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:58:39 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: KPV 14.5

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:21:41 +0800
>From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

>Incidently, the KPV was designed around the round of the PTRS and PTRD AT
>Rifles, and has roughly twice the Muzzle energy of a .50 cal. (18000:32000
>Joules).  By the way, why is there no mechanism for water-coling?

  Probably not meant for sustained AP/suppressive fires. Or they
don't need it in the winter :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:59:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:18:01 -0700
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books (was: Re: Ten Essential Authors)
>
>This has been rather interesting ... trying to narrow it down to only ten
>authors isn't all that easy. But it could be worse--here's the next
....
>Hmmm ... this is getting harder than I thought! And no fair psychoanalyzing
>people's personalities based on their choice.
>
>ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
>feel, but I think that would be too limiting.

  But think of the potential for Travellers to psychoanalyze each others
personalities based on their choice! "Hey - his locker has nothing but
old "Anne Rice" disks!". "Well, it's going to be a long trip - maybe we
should take him out now." :)

        Steven Hudson

  Well, Doug _did_ refer to a certain element of silliness.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Weber's Universe

In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19971027155014.28df062e@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> On the whole Hornblower thing...
>  
> I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned David Feintuch's "Hope" series.

I mentioned it in my list.

> Set in a very repressive future, it follows the amazing career of a single
> Navy officer in a star navy very reminiscent of the Hornblower saga.  Nick
> Seafort starts as a Midshipman who has to take command when all the
> commissioned officers are killed.  He is a tormented soul, pursued by the
> demons of his strict upbringing and holding himself to an impossible 
standard.

They're good, but the angst, torment, and self-loathing get a bit too much 
after a while. I kept wanting to smack Seafort across the face and scream, "For 
****'s sake, cheer up, you miserable bastard!" If he was on my ship, he'd 
either get thrown out of an airlock or force-fed a whole crate of prozac...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:05:55 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era 

In a message dated 28/10/97 00:22:17 GMT, you write:

<< I _think_ we are all in agreement that having pirates in the game adds
 flavor and some excitement.  Having PCs that have that in their
 background gives the GM a fair amount of history to draw on.  So, rather
 than developing a either/or situation (which really doesn't help anyone,
 even if it is fun to debate) let's concentrate on developing the
 rationale where such a situation _could_ occur (which _would_ help the
 GMs at large, since we have to turn around and explain to our players
 why we just blew their ship to MC^2 with a pirate that shouldn't be
 there!)  Perhaps one of the several authors that frequent the list will
 be able to produce something constructive that we can then point to as
 'canon' when this debate (inevitably) resurfaces in the future!  :)
  >>

In my previous message I mentioned that J. Andrew Keith apparently wrote a
(draft) source book on piracy in the Imperium.. My understanding is that Marc
and GDW both accepted it as canon..

I've now got more information if anyone can help track it down..

J. Andrew Keith wrote it in 1984 while running Marischal Adventures?Gamelords
with the intention that GDW publish it as a boxed module - it was either
called 'Rogues in Space' or Letter of Marque' or something similar and was
intended to be the first in a series detailing the underworld.

The basic idea as I've been told was that piracy exists but piracy as such is
not common and isn't effective without the support of wealthy backers or
planets. As such pirates are rare in the Imperium.

Instead Privateers roam the Imperium spacelanes - which are tolerated by the
authorities much in the same way that mercenaries are tolerated. The Rules of
War apply. These ships attack shipping belonging to hostile governments or
traders  supporting that government on the understanding that completely
independent shipping and passengers are untouched..

Of course privateers are also used in Trade Wars and a large merchant Corp
may elect to 'attack, burn, cripple or destroy' independent traders who are
in competition with them and during lean times could 'drift' into outright
piracy. Because they are merc's they receive funding from Governments or
corps as well as catured cargo or salvage on ships... Personally I like the
idea that privateers don't keep your ship however, to get it back you must
pay salvage.. Would make the backers happier too.

This could provide an answer to the piracy question - merc's and privateers
can roam the starlanes freely and provided they don't break the rules of war
then the Imperium doesn't interfere yet if the players p*ss off any major
corps they could find themselves at risk from authorised Privateers.. Pirates
are hunted down mercilessly and destroyed. Unfortunately many Imperial
'pirates' are legal privateers MOST of the time and they need to be
identified or caught in the act... Difficult.

Comments please!

Jae

_____________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:05:42 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economic data/Piracy

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:06:03 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Economic data
....
>against him at a later date. A ship can easily represent 10-20 cargoes
>(assuming cargoes can be sold for their full value, a very iffy assumption
>to begin with), so why not take the ship and retire and let the other
>pirates worry about the reaction?

Hello,
  Has anyone had the chance to ballpark an average cargo value to
help work this through? I would expect that resale values will
start at 50% and head up, especially if you redeploy to sell them
as your own specualtive cargo, or have a confederate do so for you.

  As far as grabbing the ship goes, if it can be sold for a good
portion of its real value then doing so is provably better for the
pirate gang involved. The system isn't closed, and the purpose is
to make wads of money, not to stay in "business" as long as you
can (which maximizes your chance of being attritted).

  The "organization" Douglas proposed would be an excellent campaign
specific (either regionally or temporally limited) model for having
a true pirate problem in a policed zone. These "Orion Pirates" do
appear awfully close to the "enemy gov't/corp" model, and should be
considered as such until a method for recruiting individual ships
without a 20%+ capital outlay is proposed (about, three hours?).

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:35:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Where is piracy safe?

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:56:20 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Where is piracy safe?
>
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>   With regards to the piracy thing, let's work through where in
>>a i) high pop system, you'd be safe to rip-off starships.
>> 
>>  For convenience sake, this is a stellar tech culture in a system
>>effectively identical to ours, with a few billion+ sapient critters.
>
>OK. Say they have a total production equal to Cr10,000/citizen per year,
....
>keep active in peacetime, you'd have an active fleet worth MCr1,386,000.

  All canon according to Striker, Book 2: Integrating with Traveller.

>I think the bulk of the planetary navy would be cruiser-sized SDBs, with
>a smattering of smaller ships. But that's just an unsupported opinion.

  I'll buy that. The light SDB's don't work well for open space fights.
Either way, the large ships are most likely going to function as guards
at fixed sites, as they lack the numbers to patrol except as training.

>Well, any ship that isn't close to a warship can thumb its nose at
>regulations _provided_ it isn't using its regular transponder code
>and is able to disguise itself.

  Assuming goodly quantities of light SDBs or police cutters, all of
the gravity wells with noticeable traffic will be inviolable. This
refers only to clasic piracy, not smuggling, hijacking, kidnapping...
Actually, said vessels serve mostly as reaction forces and inspection
boats, as COACC/PD/fleet units provide ridiculous physical force levels.

  Further, in a well integrated system, starships will not carry cargo
from the belt, for example, unless said cargo is perishable. For this
case that means effectively no starships with valuable cargos will
be leaving the belt - valuable machinery, etc, being brought in will
jump direct to the locale of the destination, and not be interceptable
without inside info. Given the literary commentary going on, Niven's
model of a populated belt and the number of telescopes tracking every
object that moves is instructive.

>>   Masses inside the orbit of Terra are a non-starter. A vessel can't
>>jump safely from inside Sol's 100-D zone (correct?),
>
>Depends on just what rules you use. The ones I prefer are the MT ones
....

  I'm assuming <100 D is +5, <10 D is +10, 11+ misjump, 16+ XX (IIRC).
The +5 makes commercial ops non-viable, makes various forms of death
quite possible, and generally contributes to an attrittion rate that
is unacceptable for prolonged operations. If the alternative is getting
shot up, you'll jump, but if attacking inside 100 solar D's is your
best plan then you're not bright enough to last very long.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:44:38 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

In a message dated 97-10-29 03:39:04 EST, you write:

<< ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
 feel, but I think that would be too limiting... >>

EC Tubb's Dumarest Series (the book where he reaches Earth is just out).
Poul Anderson's stuff
Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)
Niven's Known Space
Isaac Asimov's Foundation

H Beam Piper's Space Viking, and The Cosmic Computer


Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:40:42 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

Leonard Erickson wrote:
[snip]
>
>One nasty side effect is that *everything* got smarter. This made a lot
>of animals dangerous. Earth wound up populated by what had been "low
>grade morons" before. The "normal" people (now super geniuses) went
>elsewhere. And the remaining people had to do things like introduce a
>religion among farm animals so that the animals were willing to be
>"sacrificed".
[snip]

	Reminds me of _Our Neural Chernobyl_, by Bruce Sterling.
Intelligence-enhancing virus gets loos in the animal population; vast
tracts of wilderness become impassable because of gangs of armed raccoons.
Dogs become incredibly civic-minded and well-behaved.  The only visible
difference in cats were a tendency to use remote controls, and to use
makeshift tools to torture small animals...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:07:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:47:18 -0800
>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!
....
>What would need to change to make piracy at the frontier a hazardous, but
>potentially profitable, undertaking?  How would you set up a successful pirate?

(Disclaimer: I'm with Hans' on piracy at gravity wells, though not on SC)

>Motivation - how to motivate the captain and crew to repeatedly raid shipping.

  Greed, or desperation in making an honest living/merchant house, or just
plain hatred of bureaucracy or socio-pathic tendencies.

>Security - Up to a point, risk can be dealt with.  Certain death will not be.

  Attrition rates relative to pay-off will be very important. As attrition is
directly related to number of missions (regardless of payoff), and payoff is
likely much higher for nabbing ships, I would argue that the objective is to
hit and take a ship, leave, and go legit (either by selling the target or
using it as a payment-free merchant).

>Facilities - the ship will need someplace to go to.  A free port?  A port
>official that would be willing to look the other way for a sufficient donation?

  The most practical way for an independent pirate to function is through
normal channels. Dump cargo to crooked dealers, sell it to belters or
other merchants, or sell it as your own spec cargo. If you can't fake
the papers for these, how can you avoid leaving a trail for INI.

  As for how to justify a large independent, full time pirate? Not sure, yet.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:09:54 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:01:02 -0800
Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>>Craig Berry, at your request, I "took the discussion offlist", but you
>>didn't seem to want to discuss it at that point, or at least I got no
>>reply from the note I sent you.  So, back I am, Sam I am.
>
>Craig has a busy life, raising the Future Ruler of the Planet.  He
>sometimes takes weeks to answer my mail.  You expect someone whom you've
>tee'd off to jump when you post?


No, I expect someone that suggests a subject go off list would _actually_
want to talk about it.


>>Now, in exactly the form that I had predicted, you launch more questions,
>>because you are not satisfied with your first questions.  It is like I said
>>before, you get a tire count, and you're not happy with that, then you want
>>tire _pressure_.  Simply--you won't be happy with it, _no_ matter _what_ it
>>_does_ contain.
>
>OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
>EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?


Nowhere.  I treat it like most Traveller references--the art is just
eye-candy, and in the cases that I am happy with an illustration, I use
it as the conceptualization.   If I don't, then I imagine something else.

It is seldom that you get someone who both writes and does artwork, that
it is rare that you match any artwork with an item/reference in Traveller.
In CT, you see that happen most with Bill Keith's works of art.


>Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
>Industrial Grav shown?


I'm not sure the question is even relevant.  I would use it as an encounter,
and my Traveller campaign is not Star Trek where you take your trusty old
tricorder out and find out the exact census of the vehicle.

It is not likely that my players would be interested in "buying" one for
tooling around the planet on, and if they did, they'd have to get a larger
starship to carry the damned thing.  Like I said, irrelevant.

In general, these questions are up to the referee to decide.  Some may not
even use it since it is grav-powered, such as the campaign in which I play.

I think the basic value of _EV_ has been totally overlooked.  I've said
before, I don't sit around designing things, and having this kind of book
is _great_ as an idea generator.


>The funny thing, I'm a member of the Teamsters.


So is my oldest brother.


>IMHO, the list would be better off without people who make personal attacks
>a regular part of their postings.


Well that was my point in the first place.


>>To make mountains out of mole-hills is how I see the chatter about
>>IG's product on part of this list.  It reminds me of the time that
>>it was declared here that (I paraphrase) "Marc had killed off a
>>major race, and what was he going to do about it?"  Hogwash!
>
>So the fans had no right to discuss the Aslan?  Hogwash!


Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.


>>No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.
>
>My offer still stands, you and me in a Traveller showdown at GenCon.


Sorry, _if_ I were able to get to a GenCon, I wouldn't waste time on
trivia.  If I could find nothing else to do, were I there, then I would
consider it.  The other word that usually accompanys trivia is useless.


>>The only reason I brought up the Skyraiders trilogy was because Doug
>>seemed (to me) to be holding up the flawed past as unflawed, and using
>>it as an excuse for his pointing out flaws of current product.
>
>No, what Doug did was use a single scene out of a three part adventure to
>point out that knowing the capacity of a fuel tank could be important.


Well, I'm not so sure you have the filters well-tuned.  You can always
_find_ flaws wherever you look--that was _my_ point.


>Leroy, you have insulted me on several occasions, insinuated that I don't
>know what I'm talking about, and twisted my words beyond recognition.  Now
>you moan about people not thinking just like you?  Shheeesshh!!


Are you saying we're even?


>Douglas E. Berry

Leroy


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2030
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2031



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy - the new era :)
Re: Piracy by the numbers
Data tags
Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Piracy - the new era  Hi.
Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Kenneth
Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:23:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:40:39 -0800
>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era :)
>
>Phil Kitching wrote:
>
>> A related question is:
>>
>>        "Why doesn't the pirate crew just sell off their own ship
>>         and retire on the profits?"
>>
>> It can't be the bank payments, because if the pirates can't skip their
>> payments and sell off their ship then how could they find a market for
>> stuff that they steal?
....
>3) PC is a noble with some rather large debts to clear - or his family will
lose
>their home and their titles.
>4) PC is scion of a merchant house desparate for money to support it's
>operations (just until the economy turns around).
>5) PC is a member of a rebellious anti-Imperial element on a planet - ship is a
>way to supply money for their cause and strike against the Imperium.

Hello,
  These are good, certainly as one-offs. #3 and 4 lend themselves very well
to smuggling, fraud, and perhaps one-shot piracy for the big score. #5 sounds
more like an invite to suicide, as eventually someone may notice that this
is _political_ (+ armed) opposition. I assume we agree that's verboten.

>> But then where does the pirate ship come from?
>>
>> Borrowing 30-300MCr from any bank wanting to stay in business is going to
>> require good security and a sound business plan - so what is the business
>> plan of a pirate?
>
>Ship transport and tender (armed)
....
  I seriously doubt that specialized piracy vessels could get bank financing
in the 3I. You can't come up with a convincing business plan, without your
loans dept. getting the _right_ idea. I further suspect that a bank is truly
hosed if a pirate is caught, and investigation reveals that they should have
known what the ship was intended for. It's quite possible that Imperial mega-
corps end up as Japanese-style conglomerates including their own financial
reserves, i.e, interstellar banks are closely inter-related (though not under
the thumb) to the mega-corps. This gives the Imperium (and thus IN) an "in"
to these organizations through Imperial family stock holdings and resultant
seats on the boards of directors. Tukera, OC, is a low % holding.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:11:33 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy by the numbers

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote

> >Cr500 isnt too bad ... assuming naval spending at 5% of GDP, that puts per
> >capita income at Cr10 000 a head, which is pretty much within the figures
> >I've worked thru PE and Striker I.
> 
> I think the Cr500 per head is too high.  After reading through Trillion
> Credit Squadron, which is where the figure comes from, I have decided the
> number doesn't _work_. 

Why does it not work for you ?

> If I am to use the Cr500 tax rate, then I'll argue that it is the _total_
> imperial tax rate, and _everything_ comes out of it.  The XBoats, the
> bureaucracy, Imperial colonization projects, naval depots, scout waystations,
> scout bases, imperial run starports, imperial colonies, big navy ships, etc
> etc.
> 
> I'd be slightly more inclined to accept this figure.  Psychologically it
> doesn't sit well because the majority of the population aren't spacefarers,
> and would be, IMHO, less inclined to like paying Imperial taxes. 

As opposed to the way Americans gleefully pay their taxes secure in the
knowledge that they are doing their patriotic duty ?  Who can forget the
many smiling faces you see on the news every April 15th standing in line
at the Post Office ?

Must control maniacal laughter !

Taxes are not exactly voluntary in most places. (Although they probably
are on a few planets with government type 0).   If you do not pay your
taxes the government will take your possesions away from you.  If you
give them trouble they will send people with guns to talk to you.  If
you give the people with guns trouble they will hurt you.  If you try to
stop the people with guns from hurting you they will _kill_ you.

If you do not pay your taxes your planet will not have the money to pay
its taxes to the Imperium.  If your planet is sufficently short or late
in its tax payments the Imperial government may or will send the
Imperial Navy to come talk to your planet.  It is entirely possible that
they will start talking to your planet with their spinal mount weapons
and nuclear missiles.  After all if your planet is not fullfilling its
duty to the Imperium by paying its taxes it is in open rebellion against
it.  After they make an example of a few million people or so I'll bet
your neighbors will pay _their_ taxes on time.  It is true you can't get
milk from a dead cow but the Imperium has (in M1100) trillions of
citizens, they can afford to kill a million & miss it no more than a
govvernmnet with millions of citizens will miss 1 taxpayer - they will
serve as a good example for the others.  (Besides it has been a good
live run for the Imperial Navy after all they need to know how to
properly commit genocide....)

Just because the Imperium is a fun place to role play in does not mean
that it is a benign government based on sweetness and light.

> Most would
> be invisible to the common man (traders and brokers are taxed for goods,
> which is passed on in cost to the consumer).  However, I would think that the
> less interstellar trade on a world (the lower the starport), the less
> Imperial taxes they'd pay. 

Are you suggesting that they would pay a lower _rate_ or just that,
being poorer, the same tax rate would lead to less tax revenue ?

> >>And, how about the lawsuits when an anti-piracy craft fires upon the wrong
> >>ship and kills little Billy Jenkins, the cabin boy.
> >
> >*shrug* call it a legal slush fund of MCr50 a year, eg stuff all.
> 
> I'd like to do that, but I'm not sure I can.  I'd rather go with insurance.
>  It makes people feel safer

What makes you assume that the Imperium does not use the legal concept
of sovreign immunity.  Using this legal doctrine (simplified from real
world use for role playing use) you can not sue the government without
their permission.  I think the estate of little Billy Jenkins may be out
of luck.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:54:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Data tags

Hello,
  Assuming piracy is defined as a problem, won't IN (or bored active
service command crew) spend time predicting probables by their economic
profiles?

  Just as THUDD can judge a merchants viability based on its design
(and a bank can, as well) why wouldn't concerned parties analyze and
flag ships that are likely or provably going to be unable to make
money in strictly conventional fashions?

  If valid, this would make "casual" pirates much more survivable
(and thus more likely) while waiting for the "one big score". This
still begs the question as to whether constantly taking the cargos
only from a much larger series of hits is a more viable strategy.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:54:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:47:46 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Naval deployment in Traveller (was Re: Piracy)
....
>>Smaller-sized ships are necessary in the navy for patrol, protection,
>>and smaller skirmishes; but in a major battle their role is limited, so
>>they don't need to be concentrated.
>
>Small ships are necesary for patrol, but the firepower needed
>for patrol is a fraction necessary to stop piracy (actually
>it's not clear that you bother to arm them at all since their
>only mission will be to leave immediately). 

Hello,
  We still have no idea what parameters an independent specialized
pirate ship would follow, if such a beast does turn out to be an
economically sound variant.

>>So I take the opposite view. The *majority* of places will have some
>>sort of defence fleet. Otherwise small, high-jump enemy warships will
>>kick your butt six ways from Sunday, and probably as many days a week.
>
>Neah, what ends up happening is that the small ship runs
>around bothering small, low value targets (which have few fixed
>instalations and your small ships isn't going to sieze and hold
>a planet, besides something like 90% of the Imperiums pop
>and resources are in a few high pop worlds so it really isn't
>a big deal if he does) until it happens  to run into a larger
>force or a world that was bigger than he thought, and get squashed.
>The problem with one small ship is he only survives as long
>he has a perfect record in picking where to go next, which is
>tough even without the slow communications we see in
>Traveller.

  The period in which such a ship runs rampant may still be
unacceptable even from apurely military POV. Also, any model
that applies to "squashing" commerce raiders would seem to
apply to the specialty pirate as well.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:12:59 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> The hermeneutic movement and moment are, I think, a highly distasteful
> subject to introduce to this list... unlike the design of a 90kJ fusion
> dildo I just posted.

(sounds of much laughter)

Ever have a moment when you're glad you're _not_ drinking a coke?

My apologies to the list for raising the spectre of post-modernist
(actually, I think it's post-post-modernist, or modernist, depending
on how you look at it) philosophers. Not that I know anything about
Habermas, mind you, I just watched him drive my wife insane last year
in grad school (no, not personally, just through essays).

Perhaps obtuse German po-mo philosophers hold the key to Jumpspace
dementia...
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:06:45 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy - the new era  Hi.

> From: SignalGK@aol.com
   
> J. Andrew Keith wrote it in 1984 while running Marischal Adventures?Gamelords
> with the intention that GDW publish it as a boxed module - it was either
> called 'Rogues in Space' or Letter of Marque' or something similar and was
> intended to be the first in a series detailing the underworld.
   
> The basic idea as I've been told was that piracy exists but piracy as such is
> not common and isn't effective without the support of wealthy backers or
> planets. As such pirates are rare in the Imperium.
   
> Instead Privateers roam the Imperium spacelanes - which are tolerated by the
> authorities much in the same way that mercenaries are tolerated. The Rules of
> War apply. These ships attack shipping belonging to hostile governments or
> traders  supporting that government on the understanding that completely
> independent shipping and passengers are untouched..
   [snip]
   
   This sounds very similar in concept to the trade war that Marc
   wrote about `The Traveller Adventure' where Akerut and Oberlindes
   trading companies were having at each other with the players
   running `special ops' for Oberlindes.
   
   The `Traveller Adventure' also had an episode of Pirating going
   on in an asteroid belt.  Pirates that prey on belters are going
   to be relatively safe. (Especially compared to pirates operating
   within 100 diameters of a starport!)
   
   This will be especially true in a belt where lanthanum is mined.
   If the players are foolish enough to bring their starship into
   such a belt, a local pirate may just realize that the ship's
   j-drives are the richest `lode' of lanthanum in the area.  He
   disposes of the players and the remains of the ship and takes its
   lanthanum coil (properly slagged and laced with impurities) down
   to the local watering whole to brag about the big new find he's
   staked out.  He sells the lanthanum and THEN auctions off his
   stake.  He makes a killing and gets off scott free.  Very
   lucrative.  No need for a fence, fake transponders, or an
   extensive supply area.  Imperial authorities are never involved;
   it's entirely a local matter, and the victims were off-worlders.
   
   Why, a pirate could make a living doing this, if he moved around
   enough. 8^)
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:29 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: SF litterature (Arthur C Clarke)

In-Reply-To: <199710280453.XAA15150@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> >I forget the wording of the Clarke-Asimov Agreement - anyone remember 
> >which one is officially the world's best SF writer, and which is the 
> >world's best science writer?
>  
> Logically, it would be Asimov, best science writer and Clarke, best science
> fiction writer given the quality of Asimov's popular science books. I
> remember inhaling those books when I was 13, 14. ;->

I just checked, and you're right.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:29 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d

In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971028184819.00e88148@mail.pcisys.net>

David,

> I liked TGH, although not as much as TMiGE. Footfall was excellent, and a
> much better description of how an alien race would try to subjugate Earth
> than, say, ID4. Besides, they practically deified Heinlein in that
> book--how could you not like it? Plus the way we humans kicked ass at the
> end--much better than the weak ending of ID4 ...

Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the first 
3...?)

> >>  Bujold, Lois
> >
> >I'd put her in the top 3.
>  
>  I really like her Vorkosigan stuff (I think I have it all), but I was
> weaned on my top three authors ...

Got _Memory_ today.

> >>  Bester, Alfred
> >
> ><splutter> He should be at no.1...if not higher!
>  
> <double splutter> HIGHER THAN HEINLEIN?!?! <spoken with rising
> pitch><reaches for Famille Spofulam arms catalog to get proper "teaching
> tool" to show an infidel the error of his ways ...>

Sorry, but I'm not a huge Heinlein fan. Maybe if I'd spent my youth reading 
_Starship Troopers_ instead of _Childhood's End_, _I Robot_, or _The 
Stainless Steel Rat_ I'd feel different.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:29 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d

In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971028184819.00e88148@mail.pcisys.net>

David,

> I liked TGH, although not as much as TMiGE. Footfall was excellent, and a
> much better description of how an alien race would try to subjugate Earth
> than, say, ID4. Besides, they practically deified Heinlein in that
> book--how could you not like it? Plus the way we humans kicked ass at the
> end--much better than the weak ending of ID4 ...

Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the first 
3...?)

> >>  Bujold, Lois
> >
> >I'd put her in the top 3.
>  
>  I really like her Vorkosigan stuff (I think I have it all), but I was
> weaned on my top three authors ...

Got _Memory_ today.

> >>  Bester, Alfred
> >
> ><splutter> He should be at no.1...if not higher!
>  
> <double splutter> HIGHER THAN HEINLEIN?!?! <spoken with rising
> pitch><reaches for Famille Spofulam arms catalog to get proper "teaching
> tool" to show an infidel the error of his ways ...>

Sorry, but I'm not a huge Heinlein fan. Maybe if I'd spent my youth reading 
_Starship Troopers_ instead of _Childhood's End_, _I Robot_, or _The 
Stainless Steel Rat_ I'd feel different.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:29 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

In-Reply-To: <9710282147.AA08567@carbon.cudenver.edu>

I will not argue with Leroy any more.
I will not argue with Leroy any more.
I will not argue with Leroy any more.
I will not...

> Andrew Boulton, just remember that _you_ posed the first set of questions
> and demanded I answer them, and I answered.

Well, maybe just this once.

To clarify, I said EV was broken, you said it wasn't. I asked you to 
demonstrate how usable it was by answering some basic questions that the book 
didn't appear to answer. I seem to remember your answers were basically, "In 
my campaign, nobody would ask these questions."

> Now, in exactly the form that I had predicted, you launch more questions,
> because you are not satisfied with your first questions.

Nooo...I wasn't happy with your answers. Subtle difference.

> tire _pressure_.  Simply--you won't be happy with it, _no_ matter _what_ it
> _does_ contain.  

If it's full of crap, no, I won't be happy.

> I'm even skeptical that you had seen a copy at the time
> you wrote what you did.

Then I'd be interested in your theory about how I could quote data directly 
out of the book, giving the correct page numbers.

> "Any sort of review" _is_ a personal attack on the author if it is not
> balanced.

Why do you think that? First of all, why does a review have to be balanced 
(by which I assume you mean it contains an equal number of good and bad 
points)? A review should be accurate - if the book is a load of crap, the 
review should say so. This *may* take the form of a personal attack on the 
author, but it doesn't have to (and normally shouldn't do); one doesn't imply 
the other.

> I've already stated that I feel that there is no balance, supported by
> reading some of the TML posts, and don't feel obliged to address any
> perceived drawbacks, especially when I perceive *NONE*.

*Everybody* else (who has commented) thinks there are problems with EV: I 
(and many others) *wanted* to like it, but were very disappointed; others 
*did* like it, but agreed there were things wrong with it. Only you failed to 
find a single flaw. 

Strange.

> However, to flame the game,

Nobody is flaming the *game*. Nobody is saying 'Traveller is crap'.

> As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
> to understand my posts,

Yes, you do, every time you post. Maybe it's just too much for us mere 
mortals?

> As for continuing the discussion of the issues of Traveller Maligning with

See my comment above. Nobody is maligning Traveller.

> some of you, I'll be happy to if it is worthy of a response, but I am

Ah, so anything too difficult will simply be deemed 'unworthy'. I do hope my 
humble submission reaches your high standards.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:10:31 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

=On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
> described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
> white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).

The description I always used was "Close your Eyes.  It looks
like that except without all the blackness".

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:27:25 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Ethan Henry wrote (directed at Leroy):

>Oh boy. "I challenge you to _understand_ my posts, rather than
>_interpret_..." (emphasis mine). I really wish I understood more
>Habermas (and communicative philosophy in general) as I'm sure I'd
>be able to rip yo to shreds for making some sort of bizzarze
>dichotomy between  "understand" and "interpret". You sure are lucky
>that I'm so poorly read.

I'm sure everyone has pretty much taken notice of Leroy's tired old method
of debating.

A venerable member of the HIWG list described his methods best when he said
that Leroy constructs "straw man" arguments. Essentially he (mis)interprets
your statements to his advantage, ascribes comments to you that you never
made, and then proceeds to disparage them one by one.

In short, he puts words into your mouth and then acts like they were your
words in the first place. It's a handy way of winning an argument, but in
the end it's more like he's argued with himself than with you.

I haven't figured out yet if he does this on purpose or if he suffers from
some sort of dementia. Perhaps we'll all figure it out eventually if he
continues to prattle on this list.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:13:23 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Well, so far I've stayed out of this, but there are a few things that have
finally got to me which I want to comment.


>>OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
>>EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?
>
>
>Nowhere.  I treat it like most Traveller references--the art is just
>eye-candy, and in the cases that I am happy with an illustration, I use
>it as the conceptualization.   If I don't, then I imagine something else.

[snip]

>>Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
>>Industrial Grav shown?
>
>
>I'm not sure the question is even relevant.  I would use it as an encounter,
>and my Traveller campaign is not Star Trek where you take your trusty old
>tricorder out and find out the exact census of the vehicle.
>
>It is not likely that my players would be interested in "buying" one for
>tooling around the planet on, and if they did, they'd have to get a larger
>starship to carry the damned thing.  Like I said, irrelevant.


Leroy, _you_ were the one who was saying "look at the pictures" several
posts back when people were asking the crew complement of several vehicles.
To do an about face in response to Dougs question is.... curious.


>In general, these questions are up to the referee to decide.  Some may not
>even use it since it is grav-powered, such as the campaign in which I play.

No, these questions are not up to the referee to decide. These questions
are answered when the vehicle is designed. IG chose not to include the
information *that was already there*. If the referee wants something else
than what is in the book, the referee can either design it himself or make
up the numbers. As it is, with this book he still has to make up some of
the numbers.


>I think the basic value of _EV_ has been totally overlooked.  I've said
>before, I don't sit around designing things, and having this kind of book
>is _great_ as an idea generator.

Like you, I don't sit around and design things (although I'm beginning to
play around with 3G3). Having this sort of book is, for many purposes, of
very little value. Sure, I can get ideas from it - but then, I could get
ideas before spending $30+ Australian. Although if I remember correctly one
of the people who designed several of the vehicles put his original designs
up on the web (with - shock, horror - the _full_ stats for the vehicle).

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:53:00 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Ethan Henry wrote:

[snip]
>
>Anyways, that is that. As Nick Munn said, in communication,
>the onus is on the _comminicator_, not the communicatee (is there
>such a word?) to make himself understood. If we have misunderstood you,
>well, I hate to hurt your feelings, but IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!
>
>Whew. I feel better now.
>
>Back to "Ripping off your Shoulder" with your host, Rod Elliot.
>
>Ethan
>
>PS. huh huh - I said "onus". heh heh.  heh heh.


	<sniff>  Why is it that everybody here seems to think that I'm some
sort of demented maniac?  I'm sooooo misunderstood...  I challenge you,
Ethan, to understand what the dozen or so weapon designs I've posted in the
past 48 hours _really_ mean, rather than interpret them as me being an
obsessive nutcase with a fixation for really big guns.  And the pogo stick.
You just don't appreciate my genius.

	You see, what I'm really trying to develop is a system which, after
being fired twice, once from each shoulder, will enable the shooter to clap
with his shoulder blades when he tries to shrug!*  Roleplaying deformed
freaks, not Really Big Guns, is what Traveller is about; Some Really
Important Person Who Created Traveller (was that namedrop subtle
enough?)told me so one day back when I was helping him with the decision
whether to make the LBB's covers black; he wanted this really tacky 1970's
mustard...

	Sigh.  It's just like Albert said.  Great spirits always encounter
opposition from mediocre minds.  I think I'm going to go see whether Marc
wants me to lick his sneakers clean again...

//humour mode=off


	Seriously though, there are trolls, and then there are tar
babies... and fighting with pigs just gets you all messed up, and ruins the
signal-to-noise level of the list.

*this one I ripped off from a book called _They shoot canoes, don't they?_
by P.M. Benchley.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:34:03 -0700
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Kenneth

At 05:35 PM 10/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Sorry to put a private post on the list, but It might be the only way to
>get through....
>
>I've tried to Email you privately, Kenneth. 
>My server claims your address doesn't exist.
>I guess you've changed address? 
>
>[Looks like job-quitting is catching. My 'boss' has also just leaped off
>the corporate ladder.]
>
>Martin
>
	I, also, have tried to make contact with KB -- to no avail.
	I thought it was just the idiots here at the university, but
	there is apparently some more complex problem.

	By the way, if you hadn't noticed, I have a real problem 
	relating well to authority figures.


Tim Connors

All probabilities are 50% -- either a thing will happen or it won't.
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

 . . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:13:26 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Criticism

There's been some posts recently about what's right and what's not about
criticism. In order to convey my thoughts, I'm going to paraphrase someone
famous. I can't remember who - I think it was Chris Rea - said this but:

(Commence paraphrase mode)
'If I grow cabbages in my garden and eat them myself, then nobody has the
right to tell me that my cabbages are no good. If I go around saying 'hey,
my cabbages are the best in the world'  then EVERYONE has the right to
comment, because I'm holding them up for criticism,'
(Paraphrase mode off)

What the man was saying was this: If I write something for publication I'm
inviting comment on it.
That means it's quite legitimate to criticise the work that someone is
holding up to the world. If you can't handle that then don't publish. Same
goes for criticism - if you make your criticism public then be prepared to
be criticised yourself or to be challenged on your accuracy.

Thus, I think it's fair enough me saying: 'Newton's laws are a fine model,
even though they're not truly laws but more like observations, and they
don't work for all cases. Yes, overall Newton's laws are good enough for
the macro universe we inhabit day-to-day - but they're certainly not the
whole story.'

I can expect to be disagreed with, of course. 
But what I've said is a commentary upon Newton's work, or rather this part
of it.

I'd be out of line to say, "Newton was an idiot, a fool, a gabeezling
wabsnart of a man with no more intellect than a sponge pudding." (I'd also
be some kind of idiot myself).

My point is:
It's fair enough for those of us who know a little about gaming to comment
on a game product. It's not spineless or vindictive in fact it's our RIGHT,
since the product is being held up for our evaluation. I write for
publication, and I expect that people will judge my work. If they  look at
my work and say, "This bit's not so good" that's fine. If they say,
"Dougherty is a fool." then I'd object. That's not crisicism of a piece of
work, that's a personal attack. I do not expect someone to tell the world
he thinks I'm an idiot for writing something. But he's welcome to say he
dislikes it for this or that reason - I reserve the right to reply and
justify myself.

We are the Faithful. We are the ones who love Traveller. It is our right
and our duty to say what we really think about a particular product. How
else will IG discover what the gamer-public thinks? 

(Which is the correct approach?
	
	A: IG are a pack of bumbling fools. They must be, to let this rubbish
escape their wastebin!

	B: This supplement has several things I really don't like. These are: Blah
Blah Blah
	This is why I disagree with these points blah blah blah.....

	C: I really love Traveller and this supplement is a fine addition to the
range. There's a couple of 	points I disagreed with and these could, in my
opinion, be improved by.... here's why I think 	that....

	D: The author is a slavering wretch of a man. A fool, a baboon in sheep's
clothing!!! (rant rant)

	E: This supplement is crap.

It's obvious which ones are useful (B and C), even if quite critical, and
which ones are personal attacks, or are unjustified, unsubstantiated
opinion which contributes nothing but bad feeling.)

SO: If you have an opinion about a product, it's OK to share it, provided
you'll not be embarassed to face the ensuing difference of opinion. If you
quibble with a fact, make sure yours are correct. If you disagree with an
opinion, justify yourself. Don't state opinion as fact. Argue calmly and
rationally. Don't slander others because their opinion differs from yours.
Consider why it differs. You may not change one another's veiwpoint, but
you'll learn something.

The only thing you'll learn from personal attacks is what a punch in the
mouth feels like.
(Jest mode off)

The above is, of course, my personal opinion. You are welcome to
disagree....

Martin.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2031
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, October 29 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2032



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Kenneth
Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Traveller Maligning List
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Rowley
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:58:58 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Kenneth

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> Sorry to put a private post on the list, but It might be the only way to
> get through....
> 
> I've tried to Email you privately, Kenneth.
> My server claims your address doesn't exist.
> I guess you've changed address?
> 
> [Looks like job-quitting is catching. My 'boss' has also just leaped off
> the corporate ladder.]
> 
> Martin

No, I'm still here.  My ISP has been having problems lately in receiving
messages.

Give it another shot.

Kenneth.
dreamer@brokersys.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:13:28 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors (was: Re: Larry Niven (was Re:   Jumpspace d

At 09:29 pm 10/29/97 GMT0, you wrote:
>> >>  Bester, Alfred
>> >
>> ><splutter> He should be at no.1...if not higher!
>>  
>> <double splutter> HIGHER THAN HEINLEIN?!?! <spoken with rising
>> pitch><reaches for Famille Spofulam arms catalog to get proper "teaching
>> tool" to show an infidel the error of his ways ...>
>
>Sorry, but I'm not a huge Heinlein fan. Maybe if I'd spent my youth reading 
>_Starship Troopers_ instead of _Childhood's End_, _I Robot_, or _The 
>Stainless Steel Rat_ I'd feel different.

	That's funny, I grew up on those as much as Heinlein ... guess I just
liked his style and some of the philosophies ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:18:39 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

OK, I give up. I've been trying to stay out of this, but everybody else has
been having too much fun. Plus, I've possibly been maligned and didn't even
notice it ...

At 01:09 pm 10/29/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
>>EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?
>
>
>Nowhere.  I treat it like most Traveller references--the art is just
>eye-candy, and in the cases that I am happy with an illustration, I use
>it as the conceptualization.   If I don't, then I imagine something else.

	Leroy. Please. Try following your own argument. In response to the
complaint "The stats don't tell me the crew" your response was "But the
artwork does."  Now you're saying you can't use the artwork to figure out
the crew? Tch tch. Ok. We'll assume your first response was wrong, and your
second was right. The artwork does NOT tell anybody what the crew is, nor
do the stats. Where do I find this information (or are you simply going to
claim that no REAL referee or Traveller player would be interested in this
information)?
	
>>Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
>>Industrial Grav shown?
>
>I'm not sure the question is even relevant.  I would use it as an encounter,
>and my Traveller campaign is not Star Trek where you take your trusty old
>tricorder out and find out the exact census of the vehicle.

	The question is indeed relevant if someone is using the supplement, and
needs to know the crew complement of the Industrial Grav. Furthermore, you
have already told that referee he can figure out the crew complement of a
vehicle based on the drawing (well, then you also told him he couldn't, but
we've already discussed that, and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the
doubt ...). Now, without even trying, I can think of a handful of
situations commonly encountered in gaming where it is necessary for the
REFEREE to know the number of occupants of a vehicle, regardless of whether
the players know, and I really don't consider myself that imaginative, as
referees go ...

>It is not likely that my players would be interested in "buying" one for
>tooling around the planet on, and if they did, they'd have to get a larger
>starship to carry the damned thing.  Like I said, irrelevant.

	You're evading the question, Leroy. What if the players ENCOUNTER one
(like you said above, you'd treat it as an encounter), and the occupants
for some reason decide to get out of the vehicle to confront the players?
How many occupants get out? (Punch Line: "If one more person goes in, the
house will be empty"--who knows the joke?). What if the players in SOMEBODY
ELSE'S campaign decide they need one (since some other referees might
actually tailor their games somewhat to the players ...)

	Furthermore, in a discussion of the value of a supplement to the gaming
community, it seems highly arrogant to state that, since none of YOUR
players would do something, therefore nobody else's should. Long-time
Traveller players and members of the TML should have a fair idea of how
much variety there is out there ...

>>IMHO, the list would be better off without people who make personal attacks
>>a regular part of their postings.
>
>Well that was my point in the first place.

	Which is why most of your replies come across as personal attacks? Hint:
Criticism of an opinion is not criticism of the person holding the opinion,
and doesn't warrant attacking the critic. Second hint: I don't know you,
and have little opinion about your personality, your morals, your
character, your intelligence, or your worth. I'm specifically addressing
statements you have made, and trying to understand the logic involved.
Because, based on the type of logic I've been taught, I'm having trouble.

>>>To make mountains out of mole-hills is how I see the chatter about
>>>IG's product on part of this list.  It reminds me of the time that
>>>it was declared here that (I paraphrase) "Marc had killed off a
>>>major race, and what was he going to do about it?"  Hogwash!
>>
>>So the fans had no right to discuss the Aslan?  Hogwash!
>
>Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.

	YOUR memory is flawed. It was the *Aslan* who were demoted from Major Race
status when it was discovered that the Aslan stole their jump technology
from a captured starship (Solomani, IIRC).


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:54:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Just noticed something ...
>> Also, if this is going (errantly) the way it did with Dave Golden this
>> summer, improperly constructed views of my person don't account for a
>> student that is 41 and has played Traveller nearly half his life.


	Did I get slammed somewhere and not notice it? Guess that's what I get for
being too rapid with the delete key...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:51:31 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Traveller Maligning List

Would you guys please ask Rob Miracle to set up a separate mailing list
for you to exchange your long posts?

Thank you.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:25:42 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

[Standing very, very still, while looking down at the poor horse and the awesome
display of Tech 0 blunt weaponry being utilized...]

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:07:10 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

> From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

> I think there would be several "orders" of the non-heriditary knighthood,

Orders of knighthood are set out in one of Megatraveller books (so they
are the orders ca. 1120).  Some of these date back to Milieu 0 and
before.  Someone with the text (mine's in storage) should post them.

I agree with Derek's concept of abbreviations after the knight's name. 
Knights could also have different ranks, like knights of the United
Kingdom:  Knight, Knight Commander, I've forgotten the others.  Thus

Sir Bruce Ganiishiri Dasgupta, K.C.O.A.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:40:12 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Lee-Enfield .303

matt McLaughlin wrote:

>>
>>         You have a Jungle Carbine?  Cool.  In my cadet corps, there was
>> general consensus that that was our fave bolt-action WWII rifle.  Gimme
>> whatever stats you have, and I'll bend FF&S to fit'em.
>
>Yep.  It's my deer rifle.  It's good for the woods in Missouri, where
>there's lots of undergrowth.  The only problem is the bloody thing's
>sighted for 100+ yards, so I have to adjust a little at closer (hunting)
>ranges.  One of these days I'll get a long front blade installed.
[snip]

	Hm... I could see that.  Seriously though, offer still stands; get
me the numbers and I'll whomp it up for you.  Better hurry though; I've got
a bar exam sneaking up in a couple of weeks...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:47:51 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Kenji wrote:

[snip]
>
>The hermeneutic movement and moment are, I think, a highly distasteful
>subject to introduce to this list... unlike the design of a 90kJ fusion
>dildo I just posted.
>
>Has anyone designed a class of starships named after po-mo luminaries?
>It's high time.  The Deconstructor-class battlecruiser... oh yes.
>
>Heh heh.  I said "posted". Heh heh.


	The Foucault-class biological warfare vessel?

	Reminds me of this seminar I did back in my BA (anthropology).  I
was stuck with a bunch of raving pomoids...  I delivered my class
presentation, which was well recieved, and in the Q&A period afterwards I
raised the fact that actually, I had real problems with the scholarly use
of the term "discourse", since I had been able to use it repeatedly before
the class for about 45 minutes without even having so much as bothered to
look up a definition of it when writing the presentation.

	I of course reassured the prof that I would do so before writing
the paper :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:37:58 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kenji wrote:

>
>- -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
>
>Currently manufactured by the Sayat Board of Organization and Oversight for
>Munitions, the PMPP was originally designed as a novelty item for the
>domestic market.  It is, however, exported in some quantity to the
>Imperium, where it is popular with collectors and certain paramilitary
>organizations.
>
>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
[snip]
>Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
>Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325


	Ye gods, man, what are you on?!



	I mean, the recoil is just _way_ too high for a crotch-mounted
weapon.  Any human with exterior genitalia would be completely
incapacitated if they fired it.  I could see it working if you toned the
recoil down to 2 or 3, and added some weight to compensate for a
carbon-steel kevlar-lined codpiece like the one in _From Dusk 'till
Dawn_,though.  It'd look really cool with a lot of chrome studs.  I think
you've discovered another shortcoming in FF&S2; the stocks & sights section
doesn't include pelvic mounts.  And the rules don't provide DM's for firing
with one weapon in each fist plus one of these.  It's too bad...

	And if one of my characters ever finds himself being flirted with
by a Sayat in the spaceport bar, he is going to run, not walk, back to the
ship and hide under his bunk clutching the biggest gun on board until they
jump out of system :).


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:57:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Rowley

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:44:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
>
>In a message dated 97-10-29 03:39:04 EST, you write:
>
><< ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
> feel, but I think that would be too limiting... >>
>
>EC Tubb's Dumarest Series (the book where he reaches Earth is just out).
>Poul Anderson's stuff
>Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)

Hello,
  His SF is (IMO) excellent, and the books on the Vang all handle
the background and the Vang presence differently enough to avoid
the impression of "over-serialization".

  OTOH, giving FS access to "...the Military Forms" names and
conceptualizations for small arms might not be a good thing.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:11:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

Quoth James Lindsay:
> On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> > (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
> > described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
> > white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).
> 
> Thanks.  I was also thinking that (uh-oh), to make such a concave mirrored
> reflection seem even stranger, you could introduce stray power surges that
> make their way to the jump bubble due to *minor* impurities in the liquid
> hydrogen.  They could create momentary bulges or ripples that could give
> the jump bubble reflection a little "life" to it.

While I love the idea of the totally reflective jump bubble... wouldn't
the big honkin' fusion plants on most starships mean that, after a full
week of total reflection of infrared, etc., the ship would emerge from
jump space as a pile of molten slag? 

I can just see checking how close you are to jump emergence by sticking a
skewer of marshmallows out the airlock....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:13:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:54:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Small ships are necesary for patrol, but the firepower needed
>>for patrol is a fraction necessary to stop piracy (actually
>>it's not clear that you bother to arm them at all since their
>>only mission will be to leave immediately).

>Hello,
>  We still have no idea what parameters an independent specialized
>pirate ship would follow, if such a beast does turn out to be an
>economically sound variant.

>>Neah, what ends up happening is that the small ship runs
>>around bothering small, low value targets (which have few fixed
>>instalations and your small ships isn't going to sieze and hold
>>a planet, besides something like 90% of the Imperiums pop
>>and resources are in a few high pop worlds so it really isn't
>>a big deal if he does) until it happens  to run into a larger
>>force or a world that was bigger than he thought, and get squashed.
>>The problem with one small ship is he only survives as long
>>he has a perfect record in picking where to go next, which is
>>tough even without the slow communications we see in
>>Traveller.

>  The period in which such a ship runs rampant may still be
>unacceptable even from apurely military POV. Also, any model
>that applies to "squashing" commerce raiders would seem to
>apply to the specialty pirate as well.

Um, all this had to do with how ships are being deployed
for military purposes alone (and how useful that would be
for stopping piracy).  So the patrols we are talking
about are not patrols to shoot up piracy, but to note
that an enemy fleet has appeared and report back.
Similarly, the second paragraph was about how long
a small ship trying to seek fights would last in
a war.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:41:21 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)


>In a message dated 97-10-29 03:39:04 EST, you write:
>
><< ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
> feel, but I think that would be too limiting... >>
>
>EC Tubb's Dumarest Series (the book where he reaches Earth is just out).
>Poul Anderson's stuff
>Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)
>Niven's Known Space
>Isaac Asimov's Foundation
>
>H Beam Piper's Space Viking, and The Cosmic Computer
>
>
>Marc Miller
>


Ok, there it is the Canon Reading List. I'm on my way to the bookstor now!
:^)

Seriously, my short list:

Piper: Federation, and Empire
Poul Anderson: Anything I can get my hands on
Andre Norton,: All the sci-fi, little of the fantasy
Joe Clifford Faust: Angel's Luck trilogy
Brian Daley: the Hobert Floyt and Alacrity Fitzhugh books (Ever see the
discription he wrote of a small free trader, EVERY possible inch filled with
cargo to the point where they had to crawl through the passage ways and had
only room to lay in their bunks in their "cabin", that's the way to make a
profit! Not to mention I'd like to see Trav stats for Alacrity's Captains
sidearm!)
A. Bertram Chandler: John Grimes series

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:27:45 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Ok.  It's my turn.  I wasn't going to get involved in this "discussion"
when it was still alive a few weeks ago but I can't resist adding my
comments since the topic has resurfaced.  I hope Leroy finds my post worthy
of his eyes:



On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:09:54 -0700, Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:

> So, now that midterms are over, I'll start with the one reply that was
> worthy of an answer.

Gee.  We are honoured.  Please accept this goat sacrifice...

> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:01:02 -0800
> Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
> 
> >>Now, in exactly the form that I had predicted, you launch more questions,
> >>because you are not satisfied with your first questions.  It is like I said
> >>before, you get a tire count, and you're not happy with that, then you want
> >>tire _pressure_.  Simply--you won't be happy with it, _no_ matter _what_ it
> >>_does_ contain.

I can't remember you giving anyone a "tire count" regarding EV.  They asked
some questions and your reply was usually "irrelevant".  This isn't
multiple choice.  I hope you didn't use that answer on your mid terms.

> >OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
> >EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?
> 
> Nowhere.  I treat it like most Traveller references--the art is just
> eye-candy, and in the cases that I am happy with an illustration, I use
> it as the conceptualization.   If I don't, then I imagine something else.

How can the art be "eye candy" now, when you clearly referred to it in
earlier posts essentially as "data" (regarding using the pictures to
determine "obvious" things like crew compliment, number of wheels, etc.)?

Why not just do away with the stats all together and just publish a book of
pretty pictures?  Because most Traveller players want information that
meshes with the game rules, not a bunch of drawings-- to which the referee
must apply game stats like armour, speed, endurance, etc. "on the fly".
Players ask questions... and they expect consistent answers.  Without hard
facts, you cannot promise this with brief descriptions and a few pictures.

> It is seldom that you get someone who both writes and does artwork, that
> it is rare that you match any artwork with an item/reference in Traveller.
> In CT, you see that happen most with Bill Keith's works of art.

Strange that IG managed to get it right with EA by having the correct
picture listed next to each weapon description, or in the original
Traveller Book, with its matching starship descriptions and pictures (most
of which were drawn by Mr. Keith, and which have become Traveller "canon"--
hardly "eye candy").  EV is a technical book with pictures meant to
represent some of the vehicles (as the layout would have you think).  It is
not a bit of fiction with random images thrown in to occupy what would
normally end up as white space anyway.

> >Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
> >Industrial Grav shown?
> 
> I'm not sure the question is even relevant.  I would use it as an encounter,
> and my Traveller campaign is not Star Trek where you take your trusty old
> tricorder out and find out the exact census of the vehicle.

But the question *is* relevant (to Doug), regardless as to what he wants to
do with that information.  It may not be relevant to *you*.  Doug may be
playing a military type that has basic knowledge of said vehicle.  Now you
have to come up with an answer on the fly because Doug's character wants to
evacuate a large number of refugees (more than the vehicle's compliment,
whatever you choose it to be).  Now what if he needs to do the same thing a
year or so later and you come up with a different answer?  Poor 'ole Doug
begins to lose face in his referee.

It seems that you run your campaign quite a bit differently than many on
this list.  I would say that you are the exception, not the rule.  As for
the majority of us TMLers that would like these simple tidbits of
information that have been included in many similar products before (and
which were originally submitted with many of the designs), it should be
available.

Granted, there is a variable line where information becomes irrelevant to
/most/ Traveller players, but I'm sure that many of them would have
preferred a book with fewer, more descriptive entries, than what EV gave
us.

> It is not likely that my players would be interested in "buying" one for
> tooling around the planet on, and if they did, they'd have to get a larger
> starship to carry the damned thing.  Like I said, irrelevant.

Again, it may be "irrelevant" to you and your campaign but the information
should still be included for those that want it and have gotten used to
seeing it in previous incarnations.  Doug asked a *very* simple question
and you couldn't answer it with your copy of EV.  To me, that is a visible
flaw.

> In general, these questions are up to the referee to decide.  Some may not
> even use it since it is grav-powered, such as the campaign in which I play.

Why should they be up to the referee to decide?  These vehicles were
originally designed with a design system that included all of the info
people are now asking for.

> I think the basic value of _EV_ has been totally overlooked.  I've said
> before, I don't sit around designing things, and having this kind of book
> is _great_ as an idea generator.

I doubt many are willing to spend $25 US ($33 CAN) simply for an "idea
book" that was supposed to cover physical equipment in detail.  I purchased
Shadowrun's new 170+ page rigger/vehicle book the last time I was in my
FLGS and found it to be *far* superior to EA-- and it was only $27 CAN.

> >>No, Literary Criticism is the work of peers _knowledgeable_ of a subject.
> >
> >My offer still stands, you and me in a Traveller showdown at GenCon.
> 
> Sorry, _if_ I were able to get to a GenCon, I wouldn't waste time on
> trivia.  If I could find nothing else to do, were I there, then I would
> consider it.  The other word that usually accompanys trivia is useless.

If you consider any information about Traveller to be useless, then by that
I assume that you are the type of person that prefers real facts.  Strange
that EV doesn't seem to provide very much of that.

> >>The only reason I brought up the Skyraiders trilogy was because Doug
> >>seemed (to me) to be holding up the flawed past as unflawed, and using
> >>it as an excuse for his pointing out flaws of current product.
> >
> >No, what Doug did was use a single scene out of a three part adventure to
> >point out that knowing the capacity of a fuel tank could be important.
> 
> Well, I'm not so sure you have the filters well-tuned.  You can always
> _find_ flaws wherever you look--that was _my_ point.

Apparently, you can always find the silver lining, no matter how dark the
clouds.  There is a point, however, when even the brightest silver won't
help a dark and dreary product like EV.  Hey, that's heavy...

> >>As for the rest of those who might attempt to respond, I _challenge_ you
> >>to understand my posts, rather than interpret whatever view you want to,
> >>to what I have "said."  For some, I know that may be difficult, and none
> >>of us will be surprised if you can not. :)

I tried and tried, but I finally had to get a neighbour to compose this
email, since "it was just too difficult for me".  After all, it hard to
understand one of your posts when you keep twisting words around and going
off in bizarre tangents.

> >Leroy, you have insulted me on several occasions, insinuated that I don't
> >know what I'm talking about, and twisted my words beyond recognition.  Now
> >you moan about people not thinking just like you?  Shheeesshh!!
> 
> Are you saying we're even?

Oh dear... (looking towards the TML camera, shaking head slowly)... for
someone who claims to be so "intelligent", Leroy sure has trouble with the
basics.

> >>Don't expect line-by-line opinions from me--that is for people who can't
> >>stand having their opinions challenged, and a particularly bad habit that
> >>is easy to get in with e-mail commo.

Excuse me!?!  Line-by-line notation is proper netiquette when responding to
lengthy posts (to keep replies next to their appropriate subject).

Oh, and feel free to challenge my opinions.  Contrary to what you believe,
I can take it.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:28:21 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:40:42 -0600, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 	Reminds me of _Our Neural Chernobyl_, by Bruce Sterling.
> Intelligence-enhancing virus gets loos in the animal population; vast
> tracts of wilderness become impassable because of gangs of armed raccoons.
> Dogs become incredibly civic-minded and well-behaved.  The only visible
> difference in cats were a tendency to use remote controls, and to use
> makeshift tools to torture small animals...

There weren't four weapon-yeilding turtles in it, where there?



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:50:17 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:11:07 -0600 (CST), Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> Quoth James Lindsay:
> > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> > > (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
> > > described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
> > > white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).
> > 
> > Thanks.  I was also thinking that (uh-oh), to make such a concave mirrored
> > reflection seem even stranger, you could introduce stray power surges that
> > make their way to the jump bubble due to *minor* impurities in the liquid
> > hydrogen.  They could create momentary bulges or ripples that could give
> > the jump bubble reflection a little "life" to it.
> 
> While I love the idea of the totally reflective jump bubble... wouldn't
> the big honkin' fusion plants on most starships mean that, after a full
> week of total reflection of infrared, etc., the ship would emerge from
> jump space as a pile of molten slag? 

Technicalities, technicalities... :)

The hydrogen bubble!  Yeah, that's the ticket!  It absorbs all the excess
heat!  Yeah, that'll work!  Woohoo!!!

> I can just see checking how close you are to jump emergence by sticking a
> skewer of marshmallows out the airlock....

Mmmm... marshmallows.... urghglll...



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2032
***********************************

Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2033



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Recoil Data
Re: Kenneth
Re: UH?
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Letter of Marque
Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
ID4
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: KPV 14.5
Re: Ten Essential Authors 
Re: Jumpspace dementia
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
CSC Upgrades
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: ID4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:58:51 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Recoil Data

Since there's been considerable debate about recoil values and real-world
weapons, I thought I'd post this bit.  With a little bit of massaging, my
FF&S2 spreadsheets were coaxed to come up with this table.

For each of the "historical" rounds presented in FF&S2, I've found the loaded
mass of a referene weapon, and used that to compute the recoil values.  Note
that these are rough values, and don't include features like muzzle brakes
or shock-absorbing systems (the recoil values do include the modifier for
the action used by the reference weapon, however).

Pistols and Submachineguns:
Designation  Enrgy   D  Common Name     Reference Weapon   Mass     Recoil
5.56x29mm      500   2  .22 SCAMP       Colt SCAMP         1.47     2  3
5.56x36mm     1100   3  .221 Fireball   Remington XP-100   1.71     4
5.7x17mmR      200   1  .22 Long Rifle  High-Standard .22  1.262    2
6.35x15.5mmSR  100   1  .25 Auto        Browning .25       0.423    3
7.62x25mm      500   2  .30 Mauser      Mauser M1896       1.237    3
7.62x25mm      500   2  7.62 Tokarev    Tokarev M1933      0.94     3
7.65x17mmSR    300   2  .32 Auto        Welrod "Silent"    0.941    3
7.65x17mmSR    300   2  .32 Auto        Vz-61 Skorpion     1.55     2  2   8
8x21mm         400   2  8mm Nambu       Type 14 Nambu      0.998    3
9x17mm         300   2  9mm Short       Walther PPK        0.801    3
9x17mm         300   2  9mm Short       Ingram M11         2.1      1  2   6
9x18mm         400   2  9mm Makarov     Makarov            0.79     4
9x18mm         400   2  9mm Makarov     Stechkin           1.23     2  3  12
9x18mm         400   2  9mm Makarov     PM-63              1.8      2  2   8
9x19mm         500   2  9mm Parabellum  Luger P-08         1.068    3
9x19mm         500   2  9mm Parabellum  S&W M39            0.939    3
9x19mm         500   2  9mm Parabellum  UZI                4.22     1  1   4
9x29mmR        300   2  .38 Special     Colt Detective Sp  0.713    4
9x29mmR        300   2  .38 Special     Colt Police Pos    0.925    3
9x33mmR       1000   3  .357 Magnum     Colt Python        1.19     4
10.97x33mmR   1600   4  .44 Magnum      S&W M29            1.472    5
11.2x32mm     1500   4  .44 Automag     .44 Automag        1.759    4
11.43x23mm     500   2  .45 ACP         Colt M1911A1       1.36     2
11.43x23mm     500   2  .45 ACP         Thompson M1928A1   7.13     0  1   2
11.56x33mmR    600   2  .45 Colt        Colt M1873         1.184    3

Note that, although listed with the pistols (because it fires a pistol-caliber
cartridge), the Thompson submachinegun is a two-handed weapon (this is the
the 
famous "tommy gun" from the movies, complete with 50-round drum magazine; 
pinstripe suit, wide-brimmed hat, violin case optional).

Rifles and Assault Rifles:
Designation  Enrgy   D  Common Name     Reference Weapon   Mass     Recoil
5.45x39mm     1400   4                  AKS-74             4.15     2  3  11
5.56x45mm     1800   4  5.56 NATO       M16A1              3.635    3  4  13
5.56x45mm     1800   4  5.56 NATO       FN-CAL             3.55     3  4  14
5.56x45mm     1800   4  5.56 NATO       Galil ARM          4.61     2  3  12
5.7x17mmR      200   1  .22 LR          AR-7               1.19     2
7.62x33mm     1200   3  .30 Carbine     M1 Carbine         2.482    3
7.62x39mm     2000   4  7.62 Short      SKS                4.01     3
7.62x39mm     2000   4  7.62 Short      AK-47              5.127    2  3  11
7.62x51mmR    2600   5  .30-30          Winchester 94      3.082    4
7.62x51mm     3400   6  7.62 NATO       M-14               4.8      4  6  19
7.62x51mm     3400   6  7.62 NATO       FN-FAL             4.98     4  6  18
7.62x51mm     3400   6  7.62 NATO       L42A1              4.76     4
7.62x54mmR    3600   6  7.62 Russian    SVD                4.612    4
7.62x54mmR    3600   6  7.62 Russian    Vz-59              10.05    3  4  14
7.62x63mm     3500   6  .30-06          M1 Garand          4.507    4
7.62x63mm     3500   6  .30-06          Springfield M1903  4.229    4
7.7x56mmR     3100   5  .303 British    Enfield No.4 Mk I  4.559    4
7.7x58mm      2900   5  7.7mm Arisaka   Arisaka M99        4.115    4
7.92x33mm     2000   4  7.92 Kurz       MP-44              5.2      2  3  11
7.92x57mm     3700   6  8mm Mauser      Kar-98k            4.032    4
7.92x57mm     3700   6  8mm Mauser      FG-42              4.88     4  6  19
10.8x33mmR    1100   3  .44-40          Winchester M1873   4.39     2
11.43x60mmR   2600   5  .45 Martini     Martini-Henry I    4.13     4
11.6x54mmR    2200   4  .45-70          Springfield Tdoor  4.54     3
11.6x63.5mmB  6900   8  .458 Win Mag    Winchester M70     4.021    6
11.6x74mmB   11000  10  .460 Wetherby   460 Weatherby V    4.955    7
12.7x83mmR    3900   6  .50-140 Sharps  Sharps M1874       4.825    4
13.9x22mmR    1500   4  .56/50 Spencer  Spencer .56        3.931    2
13.9x99mmB   23500  15  .55 Boys        .55 Boys Mk.I     17.235    6
14.45x114mmB 30600  17  Type BS-41      PTRS-41           22.053    6
15.7x76mmR   11400  10  .600 Nitro Exp  .600 Nitro Rifle   7.9      6
12-guage      2100   4  12-Guage        Mossberg M500      4.02     3

Key:
Designation ------ The FF&S2 (NATO) designator for the round.
Enrgy ------------ The nominal muzzle energy of the round.
D ---------------- The nominal Traveller (T4) damange of the round.
Common Name ------ The commonly-used name or designation of the round.
Reference Weapon - The designation of the weapon used to determine the recoil.
Mass ------------- The loaded mass of the Reference Weapon.
Recoil ----------- Recoil values for single-shot, 3-round burst, and full
auto.

If recoil numbers are missing for burst and full-auto fire, that indicates
that
the reference weapon wasn't capable of either burst or automatic fire.

Based on the above, I'd suggest using something like the following scale
for recoil values

1-Hand     2-Hand
Recoil     Recoil    General Effect
0          0         Negligable recoil, no effect.
1-2        1-2       Light recoil.  Almost all shooters can control weapon.
3          3-4       Average Recoil.
4-5        5-6       Heavy Recoil.  Large/strong shooter or special techniques
6+         7+        Extreme Recoil, unusable by some, uncomfortable for most.

Note that the recoil scale is pretty coarse, and makes some (IMHO) errors.  
For example, I've got experience with .22 target pistols, various 9mm 
automatics, and the Colt Government.  IMHO, the .45 recoil is harder to 
control than 9mm, and definitely much heavier than the .22.  The recoil
scale puts the .22 and the .45 as the same, on the light side of average,
and rates the 9mm as heavier.  This is because of the relatively massive
..45; .45 and 9mm ammo have the same energy.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:35:31 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Kenneth

Tim Connors wrote:

>         I, also, have tried to make contact with KB -- to no avail.
>         I thought it was just the idiots here at the university, but
>         there is apparently some more complex problem.
> 
>         By the way, if you hadn't noticed, I have a real problem
>         relating well to authority figures.
> 
> Tim Connors

Hmmm.  I'm getting my mail from the TML OK.  I received a message from
my ISP, and they said the problem should be fixed by tonight.

We'll see...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:19:50 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: UH?

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> asked:
> Can anyone please explain to me what this passage means?
> > ... a reductio ad absurdam)  It's an ad 
> > hominem argument.  It's roughing the passer.  It's like the base 
> > runner interfering with the second baseman's throw.
> It starts in Latin and ends in some foreign language!

That 'foreign language' is American ... and refers to the sports of football
and baseball (known in your country as ... er, well ... not known in your
country).  This is because the rest of the world doesn't follow the ANSI
standard for 'football', and insists on applying the term to some sport that
is involves kicking a ball with your feet.  'Baseball' also seems to be 
unknown Over There as well, although it's been adopted by the Japanese (it
must 
be something like the difference between NTSC and PAL video).

In any case, the phrases 'roughing the passer' and 'base runner interfering
with the second baseman's throw' can be loosely translated to:

	"It's not cricket."


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:35:55 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
>
>>Has anyone designed a class of starships named after po-mo luminaries?
>>It's high time.  The Deconstructor-class battlecruiser... oh yes.

>        The Foucault-class biological warfare vessel?
>
>        Reminds me of this seminar I did back in my BA (anthropology).  I
>was stuck with a bunch of raving pomoids...  I delivered my class
>presentation, which was well recieved, and in the Q&A period afterwards I
>raised the fact that actually, I had real problems with the scholarly use
>of the term "discourse", since I had been able to use it repeatedly before
>the class for about 45 minutes without even having so much as bothered to
>look up a definition of it when writing the presentation.

The discourse which can be defined is no po-mo discourse, grasshopper.
Only by engaging the totality of the field of narrative power relations can
"discourse" be constructed.

I wrote a module for Kant Generator Pro=81 once that randomly wrote
=46oucaultian text.  It still didn't have that je ne sais crock of His
Baldness, but it was fun.

Enough of this!  Yes, it's true, a single Kristeva-class cruiser could
completely eliminate piracy in the Third Imperium, without recourse to
relativistic Viral/viral rocks or fighters, but the cost is simply too high
to pay.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:41:09 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Letter of Marque

SignalGK@aol.com wrote:
>In my previous message I mentioned that J. Andrew Keith apparently wrote a
>(draft) source book on piracy in the Imperium. My understanding is that Marc
>and GDW both accepted it as canon.

Yes, the draft existed, but was never published (and therefore, I suppose,
never entered the canon).  I have read it, but it's been a few years ago
now.  It includes Book 2 ship designs for both pirate and pirate-catching 
forces of small, non-Imperial interstellar polities in the Reavers Deep area,
and adventure hooks for the referee to build into a campaign.

Also included in the module are rules for moving the pirate-catching forces
around (boardgame-style), and the chances of them encountering the PCs.  The 
assumption is that the available anti-pracy forces are QUITE limited (after 
all, the adventure is intended for use with PCs as pirates). 

>J. Andrew Keith wrote it in 1984 while running Marischal Adventures?Gamelords
>with the intention that GDW publish it as a boxed module

Marischal Adventures was the Keith's company, and the module was written
under that letterhead.  The intent was for Marischal to sell it to one of 
the varios Traveller licensees for publication as a boxed module with maps, 
deckplans and counters, similar to the boxed modules GDW produced.  I
presume Gamelords and GDW would have been interested in publishing it.  If
accepted for 
publication, Marischal would have gotten all of the material approved by GDW.

>either called 'Rogues in Space' or Letter of Marque'

The particular module you're referring to was called _Letter of Marque_.  It
was to be the first module in a series called "Rogues in Space", the series
detailing various criminal occupations in Traveller.  I don't believe that
the subsequent modules were ever written.

>The basic idea as I've been told was that piracy exists but piracy as such is
>not common and isn't effective without the support of wealthy backers or
>planets. As such pirates are rare in the Imperium.

Right.  This particular adventure takes place in Reavers' Deep, which is
not part of the Imperium.  Back in the 'Land-Grant' days of Classic Traveller,
Reavers' Deep belonged to Marschial Adventures.

>This could provide an answer to the piracy question 

Not definitively.  It was never published (and possibly never recieved final
approval from GDW - the materials I read were unclear on that subject).  THe 
module was designed with CT (book 2) assumptions about starships and 
interstellar trade - the overall flavor of the module would fit best in the 
kind of a universe where the total Imperial forces are a squadron of
Kinunirs per subsector.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:56:13 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.

>snip
>It's just something we have to live with: after all (despite what some
>people say about it) FFS2 is a _simplified_ modelling system. One that is
>accurate would require us to actually _design_ the weapons in question,
>and believe me, that is _slightly_ more complex. :->
>
>Water-cooling jackets were not included because there is no provison for
>heat dissipation, or calculating the heat to dissipate in _any_ design.
>The automatic weapons in FFS2 will fire at full auto until you rin out of 
>ammunition, however unrealistic that might be.
>
>I think cooling systems are just assumed to be there if neccesary. There's
>nothing to staop anyone from tacking one on, it's just that you'll have to
>pretty much wing it as far as what the stats would be. 
>
snip
Thanks for the post.  Most of the time I am amazed that the systems do turn
out results bearing even a passing resemblence to real world figures.  I
think this a credit to the design protocols in general.  I must see if I can
come up with limits on sustainable rates of fire and cooling systems., Not
that this is is an issue in most games.  However since the maximum rates of
fire "at the rapid rate" was 200 rds a minute , and barrels were normally
required to be changed at 2-300 rounds, (in am M60)( to avoid cook off and
and barrel wear),it riases some interesting points.  A Water cooled machine
gun could fire ad infinitum at these rates, But I really would not want to
carry these things around.

Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:51:51 +-1100
From: SCott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: ID4

>Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the first 
>3...?)

ID4 was actually a typo, they let the shift key up on the last one by accident.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:55:32 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

> I can just see checking how close you are to jump emergence by sticking
a
> skewer of marshmallows out the airlock....

Not to mention how *big* marshmallows will get in a vacuum (at least, for
a little while.

Could a large marshmallow dispenser be used as a jury-rigged replacement
for a sand caster?


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:58:37 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
>
>>
>>- -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
>>
>>Currently manufactured by the Sayat Board of Organization and Oversight for
>>Munitions, the PMPP was originally designed as a novelty item for the
>>domestic market.  It is, however, exported in some quantity to the
>>Imperium, where it is popular with collectors and certain paramilitary
>>organizations.
>>
>>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
>[snip]
>>Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
>>Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325
>
>
>        Ye gods, man, what are you on?!

Uh?  Eurgh?  We've got _lumps_ of it 'round back.

>        I mean, the recoil is just _way_ too high for a crotch-mounted
>weapon.  Any human with exterior genitalia would be completely

Oh, yeah.  Those.

>incapacitated if they fired it.

But wouldn't there be any advantage from firing closer to the body's center
of gravity?  I'm not up on firearms.  Seems to me that a carefully-designed
harness to distribute the recoil over a larger surface would help, too;
it's not going straight up your arm/into your shoulder.  Is this at all
correct?

Adding an inertial compensator to the PMPP brings the recoil down to
2-something, I think.  For those of you who just aren't quite _femsch_
enough to handle the real thing.  A laser version would avoid the recoil
problem, but would be prohibitively heavy for the same "zap", and lack the,
er, explosive effect.

(No, there is _no_ double-ended version.  I don't know where you people are
getting such sick and disgusting ideas.  It's double-BARRELED, the new
model.)

>  I could see it working if you toned the
>recoil down to 2 or 3, and added some weight to compensate for a
>carbon-steel kevlar-lined codpiece like the one in _From Dusk 'till
>Dawn_,though.  It'd look really cool with a lot of chrome studs.  I think

Yeah! As well as being a lot more functional -- yes, well.  Erm.

>you've discovered another shortcoming in FF&S2; the stocks & sights section
>doesn't include pelvic mounts.  And the rules don't provide DM's for firing
>with one weapon in each fist plus one of these.  It's too bad...

In certain senses, I think the PMPP is the ultimate distillation of the
Traveller spirit.  Technophallocentric belloeroticism.
>
>        And if one of my characters ever finds himself being flirted with
>by a Sayat in the spaceport bar, he is going to run, not walk, back to the
>ship and hide under his bunk clutching the biggest gun on board until they
>jump out of system :).

I suspect there's Imperial legislation prohibiting Sayat visitors from
packing.  :|

But do watch out for weirdos in trenchcoats.  The PMPP adds a whole new
dimension to "flashing".


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:05:30 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

> -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
> 
> Weapon Type:      TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm
> 
> Ammunition:       2.8x8.5 cm CPC
> Pulse Energy:     90 kJ
> Weapon Length:    30.4 cm
> Weapon Weight:    4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine
> 
> Weapon Price:     Cr1322
> Magazine Weight:  1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty
> 
> Features:         Laser sight, shock absorber
> 
> Range 30m, recoil 6.266
> 
> Mark Miller's Traveller
> Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
> Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325

Ouch!  Its stuff like this that give us normal perverts a bad name!  Good
boy, Kenji!  Have a biscuit!

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:01:44 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: KPV 14.5

At 10:58 29/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:21:41 +0800
>>From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>>Subject: Re: FF&S2: Boys Mk 1 .55 antitank rifle.
>
>>Incidently, the KPV was designed around the round of the PTRS and PTRD AT
>>Rifles, and has roughly twice the Muzzle energy of a .50 cal. (18000:32000
>>Joules).  By the way, why is there no mechanism for water-coling?
>
>  Probably not meant for sustained AP/suppressive fires. Or they
>don't need it in the winter :)
>
>        Steven Hudson
Well I guess the weather helps, but not by a lot.  The Finns stil use the
Maxim '08, and did throughout the Winter War and Continuation War.
Portability has been the demise of the Water cooled machine gun, although
many armies retain them in stores.
Colin
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:18:39 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors 

> From: Andrew Boulton <aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> David,
> 
> Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the
first 
> 3...?)

Same thing that happened to Preparations A through G?


> > >>  Bujold, Lois
> > >
> > >I'd put her in the top 3.
> >  
> >  I really like her Vorkosigan stuff (I think I have it all), but I was
> > weaned on my top three authors ...
> 
> Got _Memory_ today.

Yes!  My bestest friend and I got to meet her at a con a few weeks ago. 
We weren't worthy!

One problem with her:  she's a cat person and we're Vargrs at heart.  Oh,
well...

> Sorry, but I'm not a huge Heinlein fan. Maybe if I'd spent my youth
reading 
> _Starship Troopers_ instead of _Childhood's End_, _I Robot_, or _The 
> Stainless Steel Rat_ I'd feel different.

I dunno.  I grew up on all of 'em and I still like Heinlein (early rather
than later) and _Rat_ became the basis for one of my favorite Traveller
characters.  She's bumming the jump-routes tormenting my players as a
villain NPC, now!

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:12:16 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia

> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> Anyhow, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> >Any effects have to be *really* small. That's because changing almost
> >*any* physical constant by a *small* fraction of a percent will not
> >merely "mess with your mind", but make the existence of *matter*
> >impossible. 
> 
> Ok, sure. But it could be the root of jumpace sickness and
> dementia. A really, really tiny change in any one of the hundreds
> of physical constants could alter biochemistry just enough to cause
> a subtle change. I agree, it wouldn't be very large at all. It would
> probably be unmeasurable. Thus the mystery...

Its this small change in biochemistry coupled with the viewing of a
jumpspace bubble that really makes the symptoms of jump sickness
noticeable.  Since most everyone will be sick after a misjump, there is
definitely something that hits *everyone* to some degree (mostly
unnoticeable in a normal jump).  This minor disturbance is all the more
aggravated by actually looking at jumpspace.

Its like seasickness.  You can get queasy in the cabin of the ship, then
you look out the porthole and it really hits you. Jump sickness isn't a
dementia as much as complete all-the-way-to-the-neurons disorientation. 
Mental seasickness writ large.

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:29:05 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

Greetings,
This is a bit of material. For the sake of clarity and brevity, I'll omit
the previous message
than the header.

> From: Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 12:07 AM
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

In re: Orders of Chivalry and various grades of knighthood (or dame-hood).
According to Debrett ( a source of great use in Traveller &constant
amazement to me)
There are multiple grades of orders of chivalry (knighthood)

The senior most grades (read most prestigious) do not have seperate
classes.

The junior grades do often have multiple classes.
The British currently use the following classes for junior orders of
chivalry. 
In ascending order of prestige.
1.	Knight
2.	Knight Bachelor
3.	Knight Commander
4.	Knight Grand Commander
5.	Knight Grand Cross.
(Boy, you should see the rats nest that was 
pre-revolutionary Imperial Russian or China)

Also, please note that several meritorious orders, 
decorations and medals also grant entitlements
and the right to have lot's of neat little letters after a PC's name.

So, in my universe	
Brig. Lord Sir Sri Arunda, K.C.M.G., I.C, O.M.S.M., I.M. (ret) 
would translate into.
Brigadier - Lord (honorary title) Sir (knight hood prefix) NAME, 
Knight Commander of the Order St. Michael & St. George (junior order of
chivalry) 
IC = Imperial Cross (decoration of highest rank) 
O.M.S.M = Order of Merit of the Spinward Marches (decoration of lower
rank), 
and IM = Imperial Marines retired.

I've got a great deal more of this sort of material if anyone has any
use for it. 
Please let me know
Thanks
Pat

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 04:13:45 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Upgrades

I've just finished tinkering with CSC, working on yet another upgrade. 
Hopefully this is the next-to-last one!  I will upload it to the usual place
tomorrow or Friday, but as this email link may have broken by then thought
I'd better post the advisory now.  Check the version number (this version
will be 1.2.0b)

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html


Changes in this version:

1) can specify emergency power for contragrav
2) checks for Sylean orbital licensing requirements
3) adds external power socket (for supplying power to other
vehicles/trailers)
4) fixed some formatting problems
5) added option to prohibit stacked g-compensators
6) added option to export both HTML and text files at once (saves steps)


I would like to retire CSC and concentrate on FFS2 and Metator.  You folks
can expedite this process by helping me design the menu/dialog box structure
for FFS2.  Those of you that want expandable rules should specify how you
want the interfaces to work, too!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:29:35 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

>Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)

Read Vang: The Military Form. Liked it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:27:31 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

> While I love the idea of the totally reflective jump bubble... wouldn't
> the big honkin' fusion plants on most starships mean that, after a full
> week of total reflection of infrared, etc., the ship would emerge from
> jump space as a pile of molten slag? 
> 
> I can just see checking how close you are to jump emergence by sticking a
> skewer of marshmallows out the airlock....

Okay, maybe it is not totally reflective. Maybe just reflective to visible
light and the evil n-rays of jumpspace. :-)

To run with this, though -- what are other handwaves that allows a ship to
radiate energy when in jumpspace? If the jump bubble isolates the ship from
jumpspace, then would you think any radiation would be able to escape at
all?

I would think a one-way transfer of energy would be difficult. Can you say
"white globe" anyone?

And the more I think about it, what would jumpspace be like, anyhow? I
mean, is it full of an etherial substance (like the ether or phlogistan)?
Is it a 5d (and higher) void? Is it full of hot radiation and protomatter,
like our own young universe? What is it that the jump bubble protects
against? And how does it do so? Is it a force field, or is it just the
boundary of a pocket universe created by the jump drive?

If jump is analogous to "pinching-off" your own little 4d pocket universe,
you still run into the problem of radiation, don't you?

If it is an energy screen, easily breached by contact like some seem to
suggest, then I suppose jumpspace must be a void or near-void. What is it,
then, that is so dangerous about jumpspace, anyway? (Azathoth and his court
don't count)

I know, I know -- there is no such thing as jumpspace in the real world.
It's a great-big, monstrously gigantic, overstuffed barneysaur of a
handwave. But I want to have a consistant illusion (delusion, fantasy,
verisimilitude, what have you :-). I hate the "here there be dragons"
approach.

Hmm. I am liking the idea of non-canon instant jumps better and better all
the time! :-) If it weren't for that dang xboat/transfer of information
problem, I could have it all!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:57:03 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ID4

>Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the first
>3...?)

They felt the script was so bad it just had to be the third sequel or
something ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2033
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2034



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: java GAL now web-enabled
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Ten Essential Authors
Re: UH?
Re: UH?
Transponders.
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Traveller PBEM
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Economic data/Piracy
Re: Ten Essential Books
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: ID4
Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell
Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:49 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:27:31 -0600, you wrote:

>> While I love the idea of the totally reflective jump bubble... =
wouldn't
>> the big honkin' fusion plants on most starships mean that, after a =
full
>> week of total reflection of infrared, etc., the ship would emerge from
>> jump space as a pile of molten slag?=20
>>=20
>> I can just see checking how close you are to jump emergence by =
sticking a
>> skewer of marshmallows out the airlock....
>
>Okay, maybe it is not totally reflective. Maybe just reflective to =
visible
>light and the evil n-rays of jumpspace. :-)
>
>To run with this, though -- what are other handwaves that allows a ship =
to
>radiate energy when in jumpspace? If the jump bubble isolates the ship =
from
>jumpspace, then would you think any radiation would be able to escape at
>all?

Somewhere between CT and T4 it was decided that consuming a minimum of
10% of a ship's mass at the moment of jump was simply too much to
accomplish in such a short period.  It was decided that the excess
hydrogen would act as ballast, surrounding the ship as it traversed
jumpspace.

As I stated in response to Joseph's post:

Perhaps the mass of the hydrogen jump fuel/ballast (which occupies the
remaining space inside the jump bubble) absorbs radiated heat energy.
Upon returning to N-space, the hydrogen would be released.  The math &
physics of this I leave up to Leonard and the rest of the "I've
Memorized Pi Club" :)
=20
And to quote Steven Wright: "I put tape on the mirrors in my house so
I don't accidentally walk through into another dimension."  See, even
Steve's got an inkling into what the barrier into jumpspace looks like
:)





James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:38:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:13:41 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
....
>>  The period in which such a ship runs rampant may still be
>>unacceptable even from apurely military POV. Also, any model
>>that applies to "squashing" commerce raiders would seem to
>>apply to the specialty pirate as well.
>
>Um, all this had to do with how ships are being deployed
>for military purposes alone (and how useful that would be
>for stopping piracy).  So the patrols we are talking
>about are not patrols to shoot up piracy, but to note
>that an enemy fleet has appeared and report back.
>Similarly, the second paragraph was about how long
>a small ship trying to seek fights would last in
>a war.

Hello,
  Yes, but as indicated since, those same or similar patrols
would almost certainly also be tasked with detecting and/or
interdicting enemy commerce raiders or intelligence gathering
missions. It's perhaps hard to justify that those units would
be unable to deal with piracy at the same time as their usual
peacetime patrols.

  BTW, have you had any further luck with coming up with what
sources (besides merchants pirating on the side) would provide
hulls, especially larger ones, for piracy inside the 3I?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:47:36 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)
> 
> Read Vang: The Military Form. Liked it.


Yes, that was an excellent book.  There is also a sequel, "Vang : The
Battlemaster".
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:46:34 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: java GAL now web-enabled

>I tried running it this morning and got:
>
>Applet: ttg.gal.GalMain can't start: class ttg/gal/GalMain got a security
>violation:method verification error.
>
>This using Netscape Communicator 4.03 on a Win95 system.

The same happened to me - only that I was running MacOS 7.6.1 and Netscape
4.0.1


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:08:04 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-29 03:39:04 EST, you write:
> 
> << ObTrav: I suppose you could limit this to books with a "Travelleresque"
>  feel, but I think that would be too limiting... >>
> 
> EC Tubb's Dumarest Series (the book where he reaches Earth is just out).
> Poul Anderson's stuff
> Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)
> Niven's Known Space
> Isaac Asimov's Foundation
> 
> H Beam Piper's Space Viking, and The Cosmic Computer
> 
> Marc Miller
I can see how you made Traveller such a great success; coupled with your
own imagination, you have an EXCELLENT book list there.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:26 +0000
From: "J." <jonathan@hccm.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Authors

Since no one else has mentioned it I'd recommend David Brinns Uplift 
Books to anyone looking for traveller material.
The books have an ancient race (the progenitors) responsible 
for "Uplifting" other races to intelligence, which in turn "uplifted"
other races and so on. A lot like the Ancients in traveller "may" have 
done.
Also for anyone wanting to run a game in the Solomani Rim all the books
deal with humans "uplifting" other races to intelligence, chimps in the 
first book and dolphins in the second. Similar to the genetic engineering
in Solomani and Aslan.
Anyone wanting to include intelligent dolphins in a game should definitely
read the second book (Startide Rising).

J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:54:26 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: UH?

At 23:19 29/10/97 -0500, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>That 'foreign language' is American ... and refers to the sports of football
>and baseball (known in your country as ... er, well ... not known in your
>country).  This is because the rest of the world doesn't follow the ANSI
>standard for 'football', and insists on applying the term to some sport that

	Surely you jest sir? Proper football (or soccer as you dear chaps mutate
it) is played by countless many more people than the gridiron version. I do
like American Football myself, (especially as I saw the London Monarchs
stride past everyone in 1991) but to say it is more popular in the world
than soccer is grossly incorrect. Also, please note how much more succesful
MLS is in your country than the World League of American Football is here
and the rest of Europe.

>is involves kicking a ball with your feet.  'Baseball' also seems to be 

	That's why it's called football mate, because you use your foot to play
the ball, hence, foot-ball. Get it?

>unknown Over There as well, although it's been adopted by the Japanese (it
>must be something like the difference between NTSC and PAL video).

	Soccer has been adopted by the Japanese as well, and they have a very
succesful league over there. Oh, and having seen both, PAL gives far better
picture quality, btw. NTSC = Never The Same Colour twice ;-)
>
>In any case, the phrases 'roughing the passer' and 'base runner interfering
>with the second baseman's throw' can be loosely translated to:
>
>	"It's not cricket."
>
	Actually, it's "it's just not cricket." But close enough ;-)


	See ya...

Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:52:03 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: UH?

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> asks:

> Can anyone please explain to me what this passage means?

It means I'm too fond of American Football and baseball...

> Start Quote: 
> ... a reductio ad absurdam)  It's an ad 
> hominem argument.  It's roughing the passer.  It's like the base 
> runner interfering with the second baseman's throw.
> End Quote.
> 
> It starts in Latin and ends in some foreign language!

In English English, it translates to "It's just not cricket."

I was trying to explain it in terms our North American friends would 
understand.  One North American in particular...

8-)

Nick
(note .uk address!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:19 +0000
From: "J." <jonathan@hccm.co.uk>
Subject: Transponders.

Someone Wrote:
>(Btw. according to canon it is illegal even to install an on-off switch on 
>your transponder; I don't use that in my campaign universe, but it's the 
>official rule).
It depends which canon you look at really.
In the SOM it states that transponders have an on/off switch which can be used
if necessary, but the ship doing it must have a good reason (ie. being
attacked
by pirates etc.)
Military ships have a transponder which can broadcast any ID they like :)

Someone else wrote (I wish I could keep track of all these posts):
>Transponders were something I've always had a problem with more or less in
>Traveller.  They make sense in the broad scheme of things:  the Imperium
>could find out who was there in the system.  That makes sense.
[snip]
>I mean, even if you were armed, would you want to jump into a non-Imperial
>system with a transponder activated?  Of course not!
If the transponders have an on/off switch you can switch it off when leaving
imperial space.

>I think transponders should be overhauled before piracy eliminated.

I've been thinking about transponders for a while now, here's what I've
come up with so far:

For those of you who don't know, here in Great Britain our Car 
registration numbers (licence plates) carry more information than 
just a unique code for each vehicle. One of the letters shows the 
year of registration, this year it's an R, next year it's S and so on.
(O and I are missed out to avoid confusion with 0 and 1, and Q is
reserved for special cases).
Also another two of the letters represent the place of registration,
leaving the last letter and numbers to make each registration unique.
A large database is maintained containing all this data, but just by
looking at a number plate you can actually find out alot about a car,
and this is only using 4 letters and 3 numbers.

Applying this to traveller, each transponder could broadcast a code 
that contains the exact type of ship, it's size, it's exact date and
place of registry, it's current owner, any other detail you care to 
mention. If you then encode this infomation into a string of numbers
and letters, eg.

4572WAYWARD_DREAM100SCJ2M11211105SM1910JAMESONR123456789

This decodes as:
4572WAYWARD_DREAM = Wayward Dream (the number is used if two ships have the
same name)
100 = 100 tons
SC = Scout 
J2 = Jump 2
M1 = Maneuver 1
1211105 = 121-1105 Date of registry
SM1910 = Place of registry (Regina (1910) Spinward Marches)
JAMESONR123456789 = The imperial ID of the registered ship owner
(All characters who have left their homeworld in my traveller games
must have an imperial ID, effectively a passport).

You don't need to maintain a totally up to date database of ships.
If a ship jumps into a system before it's records have arrived, it 
will be obvious because of it's ID, and the authorities will probably
investigate the ship to check it matches it's ID. A new ship jumping 
ahead of it's records is going to receive a lot of attention from
the imperial authorities, but that's just one of the problems of
living in a bureaucrasy :)
This problem can also be avoided by registering a ship while it is 
being built, the details of the ship will be spread for many weeks
in front of the ship.

Faking ID's is a problem, there are several ways to make the codes 
more difficult to fake. One of the easiest ways to do this is to add
a few characters to the end of the ID as a "check code" this is 
calculated from the rest of the code using a simple formula,
similar to liceincing codes for software.
(If anybody wants such a formula I can provide one).

Obviously the formula is only known by the authorities, this will
catch quite a few amature ID fakers. Eventually the code will leak out
and someone will work out how to fake a correct ID, but random checks
to see if ID's have been tampered with should stop the majority of
people tampering with their transponders (provided the penalty is
suitable harsh enough).

This system of transponder ID's is not perfect, but it is good enough
for someone to need a very good reason to mess with their transponder.

Comments?

J.

Note: Just a little side point of interest, the SOM says
"No vessel, military or otherwise, is required to detail it's armament
or defenses on it's transponder ID".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:15:03 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kenji wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>        Ye gods, man, what are you on?!
>
>Uh?  Eurgh?  We've got _lumps_ of it 'round back.


	Kewl.  Although I don't know whether recreational substance abuse
is covered under the 5th goal for Traveller in the T4 introduction.  That
nasty "wholesome" word came up, along with something about "eliminating
gratituous violence and sexual content" or words to that effect.  I'm sure
they meant to cover drugs too.  Note the inexplicable absence of drug drug
in the T4 pharmacopaeia.

	Oh well... it was an IG product.  It was probably a typo.  I'll be
a good little Heinlein fan and take those lumps!

	Whee!  Much better!


>
>>        I mean, the recoil is just _way_ too high for a crotch-mounted
>>weapon.  Any human with exterior genitalia would be completely
>
>Oh, yeah.  Those.
>
>>incapacitated if they fired it.
>
>But wouldn't there be any advantage from firing closer to the body's center
>of gravity?  I'm not up on firearms.  Seems to me that a carefully-designed
>harness to distribute the recoil over a larger surface would help, too;
>it's not going straight up your arm/into your shoulder.  Is this at all
>correct?


	Actually, this would be a major advantage in zero G.  Aside from
the recoil, someone, especially a someone with a relatively lower center of
gravity than the average male human, could probably fire one of these
babies unbraced without going into a tumble.


>
>Adding an inertial compensator to the PMPP brings the recoil down to
>2-something, I think.  For those of you who just aren't quite _femsch_
>enough to handle the real thing.  A laser version would avoid the recoil
>problem, but would be prohibitively heavy for the same "zap", and lack the,
>er, explosive effect.


	Yeah.  No sound, no fury, no bang...


>
>(No, there is _no_ double-ended version.  I don't know where you people are
>getting such sick and disgusting ideas.  It's double-BARRELED, the new
>model.)
>
>>  I could see it working if you toned the
>>recoil down to 2 or 3, and added some weight to compensate for a
>>carbon-steel kevlar-lined codpiece like the one in _From Dusk 'till
>>Dawn_,though.  It'd look really cool with a lot of chrome studs.  I think
>
>Yeah! As well as being a lot more functional -- yes, well.  Erm.


	Absolutely.  I mean what good is a plasma novelty if it looks kinda
soft and pink and plastic?  It'd have no psychological impact that way!
You want it to look like it was some sort of bizarre lethal sex-toy built
by this sexually, er, deviant species of really depraved and scary humans.

	Oh... right.  It is already.  OK, make it look even more so then.


>
>>you've discovered another shortcoming in FF&S2; the stocks & sights section
>>doesn't include pelvic mounts.  And the rules don't provide DM's for firing
>>with one weapon in each fist plus one of these.  It's too bad...
>
>In certain senses, I think the PMPP is the ultimate distillation of the
>Traveller spirit.  Technophallocentric belloeroticism.


	Indeed.  Well put!


>>
>>        And if one of my characters ever finds himself being flirted with
>>by a Sayat in the spaceport bar, he is going to run, not walk, back to the
>>ship and hide under his bunk clutching the biggest gun on board until they
>>jump out of system :).
>
>I suspect there's Imperial legislation prohibiting Sayat visitors from
>packing.  :|


	I feel much better now.


>
>But do watch out for weirdos in trenchcoats.  The PMPP adds a whole new
>dimension to "flashing".
>
	Yeowch.  Indeed.  Now, however, I have to stop rolling around on
the floor twitching in horror and get to work.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:20:50 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

Pat Connaughton <pconn@simm.net> writes:

> So, in my universe	
> Brig. Lord Sir Sri Arunda, K.C.M.G., I.C, O.M.S.M., I.M. (ret) 
> would translate into.
> Brigadier - Lord (honorary title) Sir (knight hood prefix) NAME, 
> Knight Commander of the Order St. Michael & St. George (junior order of
> chivalry) 
> IC = Imperial Cross (decoration of highest rank) 
> O.M.S.M = Order of Merit of the Spinward Marches (decoration of lower
> rank), 
> and IM = Imperial Marines retired.

The KCMG in real life being awarded to members of the Foreign Office 
of the British government, and known informally as "Kindly Call Me 
God".

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:51:17 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Traveller PBEM

Hi,
Any T4 or MT PBEM games going on?
or any coming up soon..

Thanks



http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The One and Only FIREBASE Games Page!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:19:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

In mail you write:

> Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.
>
> Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Tyrosine, Uranyl

You mean *Uracil*(sp). Uranyl is is a radical containing *uranium*. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:00:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

> The description I always used was "Close your Eyes.  It looks
> like that except without all the blackness".

Read (or re-read) "And He Built A Crooked House..." by Heinlein. At one
point they look out a window at *nothing*. Going from memory, he says
something like "It wasn't black, black is a color. This was *nothing*"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:13:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Economic data/Piracy

In mail you write:

>   The "organization" Douglas proposed would be an excellent campaign
> specific (either regionally or temporally limited) model for having
> a true pirate problem in a policed zone. These "Orion Pirates" do
> appear awfully close to the "enemy gov't/corp" model, and should be
> considered as such until a method for recruiting individual ships
> without a 20%+ capital outlay is proposed (about, three hours?).

Actually, I think something like Norton's "Thieves Guild" would work
out pretty well. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:08:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books

In mail you write:

>   But think of the potential for Travellers to psychoanalyze each others
> personalities based on their choice! "Hey - his locker has nothing but
> old "Anne Rice" disks!". "Well, it's going to be a long trip - maybe we
> should take him out now." :)

Ah! But were they the ones she wrote under pseudonyms? For example, she
wrote "Exit To Eden" under the name Anne Rampling. And she wrote the
"Sleeping Beauty" trilogy under the name A. n. Rocquelare (sp).

These books are *quite* different from her Vampire books. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:03:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

>> While I love the idea of the totally reflective jump bubble... wouldn't
>> the big honkin' fusion plants on most starships mean that, after a full
>> week of total reflection of infrared, etc., the ship would emerge from
>> jump space as a pile of molten slag? 
>
> Technicalities, technicalities... :)
>
> The hydrogen bubble!  Yeah, that's the ticket!  It absorbs all the excess
> heat!  Yeah, that'll work!  Woohoo!!!

Sorry, but you'll find that if the ship was *stuffed* with LH2, it
still wouldn't absorb enough heat. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:54:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

In mail you write:

> (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that was
> described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness,
> white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).

Trouble is, j-space *has* to be pretty darn black. If it isn't, you'll
fry in your own juices before the week is out.

The perfect mirror is the *worst* possible situation. If it was true,
the ship couldn't get rid of *any* heat. And all other radiation
emitted by the ship would wind up as heat fairly soon. So by the end of
the week, the ship would have achieved thermal equilibrium... somewhere
around dull red heat.

David Brin wrote a short story that hinges on this exact situation. A
"hyperspace" that ship's pass thru and that has a "background temp" of
around 300K. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:00:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ID4

G'day ..

>>Almost anything would be better than ID4 (ID4? What happened to the
>>first 3...?)
>
>ID4 was actually a typo, they let the shift key up on the last one by
>accident.
>
>Scott

There is a realy cool film, produced by Channel 4 IIRC, that is about
undercover police infiltration of football holigan gangs, which ends with
one policeman "going native". This is the original ID ... so ID4 must
translate to Indipendence Day 4th July, but then wouldn't that be ID47 ?
or even ID74 ?  ;-) (dependent on how you view the dateing system).

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
	http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~edq/
                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:21:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: CSC Abuse: The Winnebago From Hell

>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> >         <g>  You ever play SJG's Car Wars?
>>
>> All I want is a trunk-mounted PGMP-15 to "discourage" tailgaters.
>>
>> BTW, you *do* realize that you can change the names a bit and put the
>> entire Car Wars world on a planet somewhere in the Imperium, don't you?
>> Another "fun" place to let the players visit.
>>
>Has anyone got an idea which Psionic/Cyberpunk world in Traveller would
>be most appropriate to let my Players trample into a Shodowrun-like
>Adventure?

I developed Glisten/Glisten into a pretty cyberpunkish place.  Fairly
liberal gov't, Asteroid Belt mainworld (gives rise to lots of "indoor"
venues, slimy city-like locations), High technology (putting the "cyber" in
the punk), etc.

Stayed away from the psionics this campaign though.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:40:30 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

Good post, useful info.

>People who are bigger NMR/MRI experts than I should feel free
>to correct me if I get anything wrong.

I'm not, but I happened top stumble over something relevant.

[snip]
>Early NMR based units (TL 8) require large magnetic fields, often in the
>range of 5-18 teslas. These early units require the use of huge magnets
>that very often enclose the entire patient (These units amy be as large
>as 5 Td!). Higher TL units (TL 9+) often use smaller fields and, by
>extension, have smaller field generation units. (Less than 1 Td).

I processed a grant application to NIH the other day that proposed
researching a "planar MRI" machine which would be smaller and not as
claustrophobic as the MRI machines currently prevalent.

The scanner would be a flat "bed" rather than a tunnel, and use the
properties of magnetic fields to "wrap" the patient in the detecting field.

So, at TL9 (since this is experimental TL8) lower the weight and increase
the pricing a bit.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2034
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2035



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller PBEM
Re: Plante III Software on FTP?
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
EV Vehicle Designs
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: New CSC Features
Re: Transponders.
Re: Traveller PBEM
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
TNE Items For Sale
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Tilb Merchant Ship (TL2)
Ziv Delivery Van (TL5)
Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)
Albatross Aerial Scout (TL6)
CSC Upgrade Uploaded
Whippet Tank (TL5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:02:46 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller PBEM

Megatraveller/Gamma World starting up.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:52:26 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Plante III Software on FTP?

>Anyone have any Info. on the Plante III Software that was on
>a FTP around a year ago.
>The FTP site was posted here but I lost all my old email.
>
Lucky for me that someone outside of the TML
give me Davtech Systems (formerly Planet III Software)
Web page and FTP site.
If anyone needs the FTP site just ask.

http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The Only FIREBASE Games Page!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:54:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

The Commander's BureauX Agents report that Kenji transmitted the following:

> -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
>
> Weapon Type:      TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm
>
> Ammunition:       2.8x8.5 cm CPC
> Pulse Energy:     90 kJ
> Weapon Length:    30.4 cm
> Weapon Weight:    4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine
>
> Weapon Price:     Cr1322
> Magazine Weight:  1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty
>
> Features:         Laser sight, shock absorber
>
> Range 30m, recoil 6.266
>
> Mark Miller's Traveller
> Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
> Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325


GAAAH!  What in the burning suns.....

Why didn't I think of it!   I ENVY this toy.   It all seems FREUDIAN 
somehow.  Do the Sayat have some kind of FIXATION?


Sorry for the psychological humor, but I was a psych student at one time ;-)

But whatever you do, please, PLEASE keep this away from Hengie and the 
kids!!!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:58:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: EV Vehicle Designs

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:
> These vehicles [in EV] were originally designed with a design system that
> included all of the info people are now asking for [like crew complement].

While I don't know for certain, I suspect that the majority of vehicles in
EV were NOT designed using FF&S2.

This is, at least in part, my fault - the original plan was to solicit
designs from the playtest group and here on the TML.  However, FF&S2 didn't
hit the stores until after the deadline for EV, and I failed to generate
enough designs (or recruit enough designers) to fill the book by the
deadline.  I didn't give it a high priority because I didn't recieve a
contract or other strong indication of interest from IG, and I had other
work at the time (from a long-standing, well-paying customer of mine).

Some of the vehicles in the book were designed by FF&S2 playtesters (these
should be credited to the appropriate designer), but the rest were
generated by IG staff, and I don't know what procedure was used to come
up with the numbers.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:18:11 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

>I've got a great deal more of this sort of material if anyone has any
>use for it.
>Please let me know
>Thanks
>Pat

Consider this me letting you know that I'm interested.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:01:28 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

>        I don't think it's possible, given the cubic root function Greg
>was forced
>into. IIRC, his advice for layered armor was to just take the larger of the
>two armor values.
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

What do you mean "Greg was forced into". My take on this was that Greg put
it in himself after doing some research (read curve fitting) on WWII HE
rounds vs armour. The cube root thing totally contradicts his own 3G3 so I
see no reason why it was put in - not well supported by real world data and
(worst of all) made armour MUCH harder to use for "ad hocing".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:08:09 -0500 (EST)
From: GAHUNTER <Gahunter@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Transponders.

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, J. wrote:

[snip]
> Applying this to traveller, each transponder could broadcast a code 
> that contains the exact type of ship, it's size, it's exact date and
> place of registry, it's current owner, any other detail you care to 
> mention. If you then encode this infomation into a string of numbers
> and letters, eg.
> 
> 4572WAYWARD_DREAM100SCJ2M11211105SM1910JAMESONR123456789
> 
> This decodes as:
> 4572WAYWARD_DREAM = Wayward Dream (the number is used if two ships have the
> same name)
> 100 = 100 tons
> SC = Scout 
> J2 = Jump 2
> M1 = Maneuver 1
> 1211105 = 121-1105 Date of registry
> SM1910 = Place of registry (Regina (1910) Spinward Marches)
> JAMESONR123456789 = The imperial ID of the registered ship owner
> (All characters who have left their homeworld in my traveller games
> must have an imperial ID, effectively a passport).

Hmmm, if i might interject here - why would you have to indicate your
maneuver or jump types - its of no interest to anyone else and can take
away your chance of surprise if you needed to outrun someone - Also you
would have to have the transponder updated everytime you change the
engines... 

And the registration ID is kinda cool but with trillions of citizens it
would be difficult to process that kind of data to be reliable - it would
make creating your own ID very easy... 

I guess I seem to feel different about how certain star systems appear - I
like to portray a Class A starport system as something like one of our
extremely busy airports - there are starships landing and launching almost
every 10-15 minutes... this makes for an extremely busy area of space and
no possible way that the imperium is going to stop every ship to inspect
it on some hunch that someone might possibly smuggle a few Mcr worth of
something into the system... They might make spot checks but that might be
like 1 ship out of every 25 or so... maybe more...

Lets see if a Class A starport has 100 pads for instance and an Orbital
Facility for repairs and docking (lets say this can hold another 50
ships).. that would mean you have anywhere from 50-75 ships departing
and arriving every 15-30 minutes - of course some will be offloading cargo
and supplies - some may need longer times to load cargo some shorter...
most must have cargo and passengers already waiting for departure - so
once they are refueled and loaded they are off and on there way...

> You don't need to maintain a totally up to date database of ships.
> If a ship jumps into a system before it's records have arrived, it 
> will be obvious because of it's ID, and the authorities will probably
> investigate the ship to check it matches it's ID. A new ship jumping 
> ahead of it's records is going to receive a lot of attention from
> the imperial authorities, but that's just one of the problems of
> living in a bureaucrasy :)
> This problem can also be avoided by registering a ship while it is 
> being built, the details of the ship will be spread for many weeks
> in front of the ship.

Yes but if you change your mind on the type of engines in your code then
it might not ever be changed at one of the locations that recieved if
before and if you go there you ID fails to match and ooops we are so sorry
to have bothered you it was in our error...

> Faking ID's is a problem, there are several ways to make the codes 
> more difficult to fake. One of the easiest ways to do this is to add
> a few characters to the end of the ID as a "check code" this is 
> calculated from the rest of the code using a simple formula,
> similar to liceincing codes for software.
> (If anybody wants such a formula I can provide one).
> 
> Obviously the formula is only known by the authorities, this will
> catch quite a few amature ID fakers. Eventually the code will leak out
> and someone will work out how to fake a correct ID, but random checks
> to see if ID's have been tampered with should stop the majority of
> people tampering with their transponders (provided the penalty is
> suitable harsh enough).
> 
> This system of transponder ID's is not perfect, but it is good enough
> for someone to need a very good reason to mess with their transponder.

Yes but player characters are never the norm are they - they possess
skills between the members to pull off "tampering" with a transponder -
gee if i was the players all i would do is locate some military grave yard
of mothballed ships and remove a transponder - or find another similar to
the one i have - and mess with it until i get it right - heck if no other
reason then to screw my competitor because now he is operating with out a
transponder and must explain to the authorities "well it was there when we
came in - yeah right, we heard that one again"... 

I guess I have seen this discussion stay on this list maybe to long - it
is just a game - and piracy and such things add to the game - besides I
just ending up multipling all the cargo rates by 10 or 15 -- increases
there worth and allows more people to afford ships - because you can make
your monthly payments - this keeps my players honest for most of the
time...

> Comments?
> 
> J.
> 
> Note: Just a little side point of interest, the SOM says
> "No vessel, military or otherwise, is required to detail it's armament
> or defenses on it's transponder ID".
> 
> 

Guy Hunter
(gahunter@cris.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:09:28 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller PBEM

Lee Neal wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Any T4 or MT PBEM games going on?
> or any coming up soon..
> 
> Thanks
> 

The Imperium Games web site has a section for PBEM games. You may
want to check there.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:42:09 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

In a message dated 97-10-30 06:56:32 EST, you write:

<< > >Christopher Rowley's Starhammer/Vang series (has anyone read him?)
 > 
 > I read Vang: The Military Form. Liked it.


 Yes, that was an excellent book.  There is also a sequel, "Vang : The
 Battlemaster".  >>

and a prequel. Starhammer.

This is a great (if gritty) trilogy.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:50:48 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Chris Griffen wrote:
> I haven't figured out yet if he does this on purpose or if he suffers from
> some sort of dementia. Perhaps we'll all figure it out eventually if he
> continues to prattle on this list.

Yes! 

I'm being serious here - there are only two possibile reasons for
Leroy's behaviour: one, he's trolling or two, he doesn't understand
the fundamentals of having a discussion with other people.

I have yet to see a shit-disturber on USENET that didn't fit into
one of these two categories (or both!).

At any rate, I think it's safe to leave him alone. At least,
I promise to try.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                     ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:00:48 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

Ethan Henry wrote:

>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>> The hermeneutic movement and moment are, I think, a highly distasteful
>> subject to introduce to this list... unlike the design of a 90kJ fusion
>> dildo I just posted.
>
>(sounds of much laughter)
>
>Ever have a moment when you're glad you're _not_ drinking a coke?

Hm... Milieu Zero=81: Classic Coke=81.  TNE=81: Pepsi=81 (choice of a=
 new..., etc.).

What are the favorite carbonated beverages of the major races?

>My apologies to the list for raising the spectre of post-modernist
>(actually, I think it's post-post-modernist, or modernist, depending
>on how you look at it) philosophers. Not that I know anything about
>Habermas, mind you, I just watched him drive my wife insane last year
>in grad school (no, not personally, just through essays).
>
>Perhaps obtuse German po-mo philosophers hold the key to Jumpspace
>dementia...

I'm afraid it's a transrational, er, transnational effort.

Yes, hm, the more I think of it, the more I realize I will, after all, have
to buy _FF&S2_ in order to design a new class of vessels, the discursive
cruisers:  the impenetrable _ISS Derrida_, the florid (yet genial)
_Baudrillard_, and the cruelly mocking _Foucault_.  Each attended by a
swarm of American tenders and disposable small fighters...  Oh ho ho.

Yes, you're right, I'm glad I'm not drinking a coke right now.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:00:56 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
>[snip]
>>>
>>>        Ye gods, man, what are you on?!
>>
>>Uh?  Eurgh?  We've got _lumps_ of it 'round back.
>
>        Kewl.  Although I don't know whether recreational substance abuse
>is covered under the 5th goal for Traveller in the T4 introduction.  That
>nasty "wholesome" word came up, along with something about "eliminating
>gratituous violence and sexual content" or words to that effect.  I'm sure

?  All the more reason for me to stick with CT, maybe.  When men will be,
mmm, well, bipedal (generally), and the Vargr all drink out of toilets.

>they meant to cover drugs too.  Note the inexplicable absence of drug drug
>in the T4 pharmacopaeia.

What's the story with drug drug?  I've heard the joke around here, but
don't have the reference.  Where can I score some?  (Reference,
_obviously_)

[snip]
>        Actually, this would be a major advantage in zero G.  Aside from
>the recoil, someone, especially a someone with a relatively lower center of
>gravity than the average male human, could probably fire one of these
>babies unbraced without going into a tumble.

Your idom makes me realize that a warning label absolutely needs to be
attached to the PMPP:  NOT FOR USE BY PREGNANT WOMEN.

>>>  I could see it working if you toned the
>>>recoil down to 2 or 3, and added some weight to compensate for a
>>>carbon-steel kevlar-lined codpiece like the one in _From Dusk 'till
>>>Dawn_,though.  It'd look really cool with a lot of chrome studs.  I think
>>
>>Yeah! As well as being a lot more functional -- yes, well.  Erm.
>
>
>        Absolutely.  I mean what good is a plasma novelty if it looks kinda
>soft and pink and plastic?  It'd have no psychological impact that way!

Gag reflex?

>You want it to look like it was some sort of bizarre lethal sex-toy built
>by this sexually, er, deviant species of really depraved and scary humans.
>
>        Oh... right.  It is already.  OK, make it look even more so then.

Now, now, now... the Sayat aren't "sexually deviant"; they'd argue that
it's Homo sapiens sapiens and H. s. vilanensis (etc.) that are the wretched
mutants.  Clearly the result of genetic manipulation by ancient, lurking
alien Evil.  How else could normal humans have ended up with half their
populations suffering from a severe genetic disease?  The entire Y
chromosome is obviously of alien manufacture; who _knows_ what it really is
intended to do?  Eh?  Think about it...  "Y" chromosome?  Whose name starts
with a "Y"?  Yes...

Just as the Vargr were "provolved" into sentience, the hominids on Earth
and Vland were clearly _devolved_ into a more animalistic state.  Look at
how fast they breed --- like livestock!  And they have entire _litters_ of
babies!  And they have buzzy voices; barking, like dogs!  How unnatural!
For these heinous crimes, the Secret of the Ancients must be discovered
with "extreme prejudice".

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:54:46 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: TNE Items For Sale

TNE Traveller Items For Sale
- -----------------------------

I took inventory at my local game store last week.  They just got in a
few TNE supplements.  Most of these are brand new, and a couple are
used.  In most cases, there is only one copy of each item.

Like many other GM's on this list, I find the TNE supplements helpful in
my 1100's campaign.  If I was ref-ing a M0 game, I'd probably find them
even more useful since the backgrounds are so similar.

If you are interested, e-mail me in private.  I'll send you a list of
what they have with a short description of what's included in each book
(for those who inquired privately recently, the Aliens of the Rim Vol. 1
book is already sold).
  
I will pick these items up for anybody who wants them for the price of
the book, tax, and postage.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:00:52 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

Commander X wrote:

>The Commander's BureauX Agents report that Kenji transmitted the following:
>
>> -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
>>
>> Weapon Type:      TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm
[snip]

>GAAAH!  What in the burning suns.....
>
>Why didn't I think of it!   I ENVY this toy.   It all seems FREUDIAN
>somehow.  Do the Sayat have some kind of FIXATION?
>
>Sorry for the psychological humor, but I was a psych student at one time ;-)

Humor?  Oh, you were _kidding_...  The Sayat have many fixations, but in
this case it's simply a matter of slightly flawed intercultural
communication.  Not having dangly bits themselves, why not come up with a
more useful, more rugged, more destructive equivalent?  It should help them
win acceptance among these half-human "Imperials" and "Solomani" --
shouldn't it?

I'm still wondering what the status of psychology and psychiatry (et al.)
in the Third Imperium is, particularly after the Psionics Suppressions and
the Frontier Wars get under way.  Have any thoughts on this?

>But whatever you do, please, PLEASE keep this away from Hengie and the
>kids!!!

Actually, it's all part of a diabolical Sayat plan.  Charm Famille Spofulam
with the SHREP armored pram (with anti-hijack system); sell them a fleet
for use in the FS creches.  Then introduce the PMPP; impugn the manliness
of those who are afraid to fire it without intertial compensators.  Hengie
and other male Spofulams will be reproductively incapacitated.  Sayat
agents will seize remote control of the prams containing Spofulam spawn and
reroute them to waiting getaway ships.  In a single swoop, the Concourse
will have acquired a young, malleable population of psychopathic geniuses,
and prevented the competition from producing more.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 15:01:12 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Tilb Merchant Ship (TL2)

Tilb Merchant Ship (TL2)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     20.00 displacement ton cylinder;  131 tonnes;  kCr 123
Chassis:
     280 kL cylinder (16 m long x 4.7 m wide x 4.7 m high);  Structure: 2.28
tonnes of heavy wood, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.30 cm thick, 0 armour rating
     
Performance:
     1.61 MW TL1 Sail power plant
     Propulsion System: 1.60 MW watercraft; Maximum Speed: 4 km/h; 
Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: helmsman, captain, 2 officers, 10 seamens;  14 crew
stations;  10 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: kitchen for 10 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     228 kL of cargo space

Slow and unwieldy, Tilb-class ships form the backbone of many low-tech
world's merchant marine. Built to maximize cargo capacity at the expense of
speed, Tilb's are used for routine commerce. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 14:59:39 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ziv Delivery Van (TL5)

Ziv Delivery Van (TL5)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  17.5 tonnes;  kCr 113
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 1.07
tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     1.00 MW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 799 L of
hydrocarbons (799 kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.00 MW wheels; Maximum Speed: 55 km/h; 
Range: 445 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     19.5 kL of cargo space

Often described as a "bare-bones box with an engine," the Ziv van is
optimized for one purpose: delivery of goods within an urban area. Its total
lack of comfort, environmental controls, and speed render it useless in
extreme climates and the countryside.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 15:02:03 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)

Mavros Charter Aircraft (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  2.62 tonnes;  kCr 113
Chassis:
     14.0 kL cylinder airframe (5.10 m long x 1.7 m wide x 1.7 m high,
wingspan 10 m);  Structure: 154 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     250 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 250 L of
high-grade hcarb (250 kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 250 kW aircraft;  Maximum Speed: 224 km/h, Take-Off
Speed: 68 km/h;  Range: 1788 km;  Agility: +3DM
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  5 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL8, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 10 cm per km of range
Other:
     Options: wet bar
     1.00 kL of cargo space

Small and relatively cheap, the Mavros is typically operated by charter
companies serving medium-distance shuttle routes. Roomy seats and a built-in
wet bar ensure a comfortable trip for passengers. While not fast enough to
compete with express aircraft, the Mavros is considerably cheaper to own and
operate, and admirably serves its niche.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 14:58:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Albatross Aerial Scout (TL6)

Albatross Aerial Scout (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     3.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  10.9 tonnes;  MCr 1.28
Chassis:
     42.0 kL cylinder airframe (8.6 m long x 2.5 m wide x 2.5 m high,
wingspan 15 m);  Structure: 321 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating;  Stealth Structure: -3DM against TL6-
military and TL7- civilian sensors
     
Performance:
     1.10 MW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 3.44 kL of
high-grade hcarb (3.44 tonnes), 25 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.00 MW aircraft; Maximum Speed: 217 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 136 km/h; Runway Length: 241 m; Take-Off Time: 12 seconds; 
Range: 5425 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.3G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot, navigator, radio operator;  3 crew stations
Communications:
     Continental Radio (100 kW, TL6, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 50 cm
per km of range
     Passive Regional Optical (10 W, MilSpec)  Resolution: 50 cm per km of
range

Military commanders frequently need detailed information about opposing
forces. Before the advent of surveillance satellites, long-range aircraft are
the best means of acquiring this data. The Albatross is an early example of
the long-range spy plane. Slow and unarmoured, it relies on a stealthy
profile for survival. Its relatively low cost allows for multiple missions
over the same target to ensure success. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 15:03:12 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Upgrade Uploaded

CSC upgrade uploaded to:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 14:57:54 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Whippet Tank (TL5)

Whippet Tank (TL5)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.00 displacement ton box;  10.9 tonnes;  kCr 586
Chassis:
     14.0 kL box (3.7 m long x 1.9 m wide x 1.9 m high);  Structure: 449 kg
of hard steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.50 cm thick
     Armour: 5 front (0.50 cm, moderate slope), 4 sides (0.50 cm), 4 rear
(0.50 cm), 4 top (0.50 cm), 4 bottom (0.50 cm)
Performance:
     1.00 MW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 1.25 kL of
high-grade hcarb (1.25 tonnes), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.00 MW tracks; Maximum Speed: 79 km/h; 
Range: 790 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver, 2 gunners, commander;  4 crew stations
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Cannon, Light-5                 10        Long           1       50     
  +2DM, turret2 gunners
     Machinegun, Heavy-5             6         Long           200     20     
  coaxialturret
     Machinegun, Heavy-5             6         Long           200     20     
  coaxialhardpoint
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL5, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     108 L of cargo space

Small and fast, the Whippet exemplifies a new concept in armoured warfare
tactics. With a maximum speed rivalling that of wheeled vehicles and armour
proof against small-arms and light crew-served weapons, the Whippet is
eminently suited for the newly-developed blitzkreig tactics. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2035
***********************************

Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2036



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Wanax Aerial Yacht (TL10)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: UH?
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)
Re: UH?
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Bio-ware
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Tim Brown is cool
Higher Nobility Awards
Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
[T97#2028] Imperial Nobility and Government
Death of the droyne?
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: java GAL now web-enabled -- use the right browser
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Re: Death of the droyne?
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1997 15:00:37 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Wanax Aerial Yacht (TL10)

Wanax Aerial Yacht (TL10)
*NOTE: upgraded to get an orbital license!
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     5.00 displacement ton disk streamlined;  12.7 tonnes;  kCr 338
Chassis:
     70.0 kL disk streamlined (7.7 m long x 7.7 m wide x 1.5 m high); 
Structure: 2.19 tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 2.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick,
sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 3 front (0.04 cm), 2 sides (0.02 cm), 2 rear (0.02 cm), 2 top
(0.02 cm), 2 bottom (0.02 cm)
Performance:
     2.16 MW TL10 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 539 L of enriched water
(539 kg), 500 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.50 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power and
orbital thrusters; 
Maximum Speed: 1078 km/h; 
Range: 537151 km;  Agility: -7DM (10.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot, 4 stewards;  5 crew stations;  12 roomy passenger
seats
     Standard life support, waste handling and shower facilities; Hatches: 3
power; Grav Compensation (1G), Whole vehicle compensated
Communications:
     Orbital Radio (10.00 kW, TL10, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 5.0 mm per km of range
Other:
     Options: automatic sunroof, entertainment centre, recreation space, wet
bar, kitchen for 12 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: licensed for orbital use, anti-hijack system,
anti-theft system, Roadgrid, fire suppression system
     4.10 kL of cargo space

Aimed at the luxury market, the Wanax resembles an old-fashioned yacht more
than a modern grav car. Up to a dozen passengers travel in luxurious style,
pampered by four stewards, with the latest in entertainment facilities. Full
kitchen and washroom facilities ensure that they arrive at their destination
fresh and alert; state-of-the-art anti-hijack systems and Roadgrid ensure
that they arrive safely.

Styling is very personal. While the basic chassis is a disk, every Wanax is
hand-finished to individual specifications. Most owners choose a theme from a
favourite period of history. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:32:51 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

At 05:54 PM 10/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Just noticed something ...
>>> Also, if this is going (errantly) the way it did with Dave Golden this
>>> summer, improperly constructed views of my person don't account for a
>>> student that is 41 and has played Traveller nearly half his life.
>
>	Did I get slammed somewhere and not notice it? Guess that's what I get
> for being too rapid with the delete key...

Actually, David, you might have been hitting the delete key at just the
right time :)

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:53:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: UH?

At 04:20 PM 10/29/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Can anyone please explain to me what this passage means?
>
>Start Quote: 
>... a reductio ad absurdam)  It's an ad 
>hominem argument.  It's roughing the passer.  It's like the base 
>runner interfering with the second baseman's throw.
>End Quote.
>
>It starts in Latin and ends in some foreign language!

It just shows that our insidious, Templar based plot to promote Yanks In
Space is right on schedule!
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:14:34 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

At 02:44 PM 10/29/97 -0500, Marc wrote:

>Poul Anderson's stuff

At last year's BayCon, I was running a late night Traveller game
(Twilight's Peak) when Poul Anderson came in and asked if he could watch.
After an hour, he took over for a kid who had to leave.  We played until
0300, and had a great time.  Poul told me after the game that he's
role-played off and on for years, and has always enjoyed Traveller.

Made my weekend.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:09:53 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Medical Imaging in Traveller (?)

At 08:40 AM 10/30/97 -0400, Peter wrote:

>I'm not, but I happened top stumble over something relevant.
>
>[snip]
>>Early NMR based units (TL 8) require large magnetic fields, often in the
>>range of 5-18 teslas. These early units require the use of huge magnets
>>that very often enclose the entire patient (These units amy be as large
>>as 5 Td!). Higher TL units (TL 9+) often use smaller fields and, by
>>extension, have smaller field generation units. (Less than 1 Td).
>
>I processed a grant application to NIH the other day that proposed
>researching a "planar MRI" machine which would be smaller and not as
>claustrophobic as the MRI machines currently prevalent.
>
>The scanner would be a flat "bed" rather than a tunnel, and use the
>properties of magnetic fields to "wrap" the patient in the detecting field.
>
>So, at TL9 (since this is experimental TL8) lower the weight and increase
>the pricing a bit.

Stanford University Medical Center is currently testing one of these units.
 It was down when I had my last MRI, but I got to look over the unit, which
is much smaller and far less claustrophobic that a normal scanner.

If you've never had a MRI, the experience is similar to being stuck in a
drop capsule while the Grateful Dead's drummers jam at about 110 decibels.
I kinda like it.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:49:31 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: UH?

> At 23:19 29/10/97 -0500, Derek Wildstar wrote:

[snip]

> 'Baseball' also seems to be 
> unknown Over There as well, although it's been adopted by the Japanese (it
> must be something like the difference between NTSC and PAL video).

I don't know how to break this to you folks, but... we had baseball 
here _first_.  It was played for many years in Derby, England;
indeed, until this autumn Derby County F.C. played at a ground called 
the Baseball Ground, 'cause -- you guessed it -- it's where baseball 
used to be played.  A looong time ago.

Not unknown, just forgotten.  Maybe we thought cricket was more 
exciting.

Nick
(who shared an office with a Derby County fan for two years)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:22:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

At 08:00 AM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:

>What's the story with drug drug?  I've heard the joke around here, but
>don't have the reference.  Where can I score some?  (Reference,
>_obviously_)

Comes from the names of the various drugs given back in CT; "Slow Drug",
"Combat Drug", etc..  If you want to get high, you have to take Drug Drug.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:17:54 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bio-ware

I'm in the process of detailing a port of call where biological equipment
(bio-ware or bio-constructs) are available for sale..

Anyone got any good ideas regarding the type of equipment that might be
available?

I'm looking for alternative equipment that could be available throughout the
Imperium without disrupting the major corporations..

Cheers,

Jae

______________________________________________________
SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:33:52 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:20:50 +0000
> From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>

> The KCMG in real life being awarded to members of the Foreign Office 
> of the British government, and known informally as "Kindly Call Me 
> God".

This should not, of course, be confused with KPMG Peat Marwick, an
international accounting firm.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:09:37 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Tim Brown is cool

Just talked to him, as IG sent me a copy of Emperor's Vehicles after I had
dropped from the pre order plan.  Without any muss or fuss, he indicated
that IG would take care of it, and that he would make sure I was off the
pre order list.

He did not even try to sell me a mouse pad :)

It is nice dealing with professionals who do not give you grief over a
screw up on their end, and who say they will take care of the problem post
haste.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:23:07 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Higher Nobility Awards

"Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk> mentioned, about "Imperial Nobility
and Government":

>The KCMG in real life being awarded to members of the Foreign Office 
>of the British government, and known informally as "Kindly Call Me 
>God".

And of course the higher award of GCMG, or "God Calls Me God". Unfortunately
I can't remember the funny acronyms for the other awards, but there were one
or two such... blame the classic UK government take-off "Yes Minister". :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:17:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

The Commander's BureauX Agents report that the following was stated by a one
Kenji Schwarz:

>What are the favorite carbonated beverages of the major races?

Funny you should ask that.  One day after receiving the "Bilanidin Bold" 
font, i decided to decode some of the script found in various T4 
publications.  In Psi Institutes, in the scene where the psion is lifting 
the object with many citizens around him watching.  If you look at one of 
the signs it is a COKE advertisement!  The Coca Cola company survives into 
the 3rd Imperium!

Coke company may have put its assets into Sylea or a Vilani Megacorp, coke 
may have died out on Terra, or the company split up during the night.

Imagine. Classic Coke became "Traditional" Coke(Vilani) and then a new 
version, Imperial Coke was created on year 0  Not to be confused with Royal 
Crown (RC) which was consumed by various Kingdoms and Pocket empires.

I am going to assume that the Terrans drink Pepsi and Mountain Dew.

The Zhodani drink Barq's Root Beer, because the foam goes straight to the 
brain...

I can't think of any softdrinks for the Aliens.  Aslan, Vargr, Great 
old..er...I mean Hivers.


Commader X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 22:19 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

In-Reply-To: <9710292009.AA22895@carbon.cudenver.edu>

Leroy,

> >OK, there are four vehicles per page, and only one illustration.  Where in
> >EV does it identify which vehicle goes with the drawing?
>  
> Nowhere.  I treat it like most Traveller references--the art is just
> eye-candy, 

So why, when I asked about crew members did you say, "It's obvious - look at 
the drawing"?

> >Based on the drawing on page 60, what is the crew compliment of the
> >Industrial Grav shown?
>  
> I'm not sure the question is even relevant.  I would use it as an encounter,
> and my Traveller campaign is not Star Trek where you take your trusty old
> tricorder out and find out the exact census of the vehicle.

No no no, you're doing it again. You cannot avoid a question you don't like by 
saying, "in my campaign it doesn't matter." Assume, for the sake of this 
discussion, that the compliment *is* important (maybe you're hiring it and you 
need to know how many to pay, or you're trying to rescue the crew and need to 
know if they'll fit on your ship).

> In general, these questions are up to the referee to decide.  Some may not

NO THEY ARE NOT. They are for the designer to determine when creating the 
vehicle, and for any product containing the design to list along with the 
other data. As I've said far too many times already, if you're going to make 
up the numbers yourself, what's the point of buying the book.

> I think the basic value of _EV_ has been totally overlooked.  I've said
> before, I don't sit around designing things, and having this kind of book
> is _great_ as an idea generator.

A paragraph ago you said you're capable of working out all the details in your 
head, instantly. Now you're saying you're so incapable of thinking up even the 
*idea* for a vehicle that you have to spend $24 on a book of them?

> >IMHO, the list would be better off without people who make personal attacks
> >a regular part of their postings.
>  
> Well that was my point in the first place.

What, making personal attacks as a regular part of your postings?

> >So the fans had no right to discuss the Aslan?  Hogwash!
>  
> Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.

Marc didn't kill them. The author of the adventure, who obviously knew very 
little about Traveller, did. And the IG editor didn't spot it. And neither did 
the proofreaders.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:47:21 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2028] Imperial Nobility and Government

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:16:36 -0500, Derek Wildstar
<wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:


>douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:
>> So, even though all people with the the ranks them as a Knight are =referred to as
>> 'Sir', there are specific titles for the various levels.  How about =this:
>> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight of Arizona (hereditary title with =fiefdom)
>> Sir Bruce Johnson, Imperial Knight (hereditary title without a =fiefdom)
>> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight (nonhereditary title)
>> Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight for the venerable Arizona University =(Administrative
>>   Knight, including the institution where title is derived from)
>The "Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight" is kind of plain by comparison, isn't =it?
>I think there would be several "orders" of the non-heriditary =knighthood,
>and the exact title would depend on the order that the knight was =inducted
>into.  Exactly which order would depend on who it was that knighted you,= and
>what it was that you did to get knighted.  Thus:

>Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Order of the Emperor's Guard
>  (for personal service to the Emperor or the Imperial household)
>Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Legion of Anatares
>  (Knighted by the Archduke of Antares, for service to the Domain)
>Sir Bruce Johnson, Knight of the Order of Starship and Sunburst
>  (Imperial Navy officers are frequently knighted into this order)

>These Orders would frequntly be abbreviated (particularly in
>correspondance), so that you'd have:
>Sir Bruce Johnson, OEG
>Sir Bruce Johnson, LA
>Sir Bruce Johnson, OSS

Actually, if we continue to follow Terrestrial models, there
would be several ranks within the orders, so that one could be a
Companion, a Knight Commander, or a Knight Grand Cross, for
example, and these ranks would be abbreviated as well, so that
you'd get

Sir Bruce Johnson, CEG (Companion in the Emperor's Guard)
Sir Bruce Johnson, KCLA (Kt. Cmdr. of the Legion of Antares)
Sir Bruce Johnson, GCSS (Kt. Gd. Cr. of the Starship & Sunburst)

If your Order has fortuitous initials, you might be able to make
jokes about it as was done in "Yes, Minister"; the ranks in the
Order of Saint Mich=E6l and Saint George led to these acronyms with
the unofficial meanings:

Companions 			- CMG  - "Call Me G-d"
Knights Commander 	- KCMG - "Kindly Call Me G-d"
Knights Grand Cross - GCMG - "G-d Calls Me G-d"

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:10:56 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Death of the droyne?

At 10:19 PM 30/10/97 GMT0, Andrew M J Boulton wrote:

>>  
>> Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.
>
>Marc didn't kill them. The author of the adventure, who obviously knew very 
>little about Traveller, did. And the IG editor didn't spot it. And neither
did 
>the proofreaders.

Could someone tell me more about this? Exactly how were the droyne killed?


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:31:27 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

Doug Berry wrote:

>At 02:44 PM 10/29/97 -0500, Marc wrote:
>
>>Poul Anderson's stuff
>
>At last year's BayCon, I was running a late night Traveller game
>(Twilight's Peak) when Poul Anderson came in and asked if he could watch.

Oh my god.  He's caught onomasticodroptic guatneyitis.  Soon it will
progress to the next stage -- killing off famous science-fiction authors in
At Close Quarters and bragging about how they begged him to do it.

Fortunately, guatneyitis is rarely contagious.  (The more virulent forms
became extinct, thankfully, after they depopulated the First Imperium in
the wake of the Nth Interstellar Wars.)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:09:16 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kigamshakruud Douggim:

>At 08:00 AM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>What's the story with drug drug?  I've heard the joke around here, but
>>don't have the reference.  Where can I score some?  (Reference,
>>_obviously_)
>
>Comes from the names of the various drugs given back in CT; "Slow Drug",
>"Combat Drug", etc..  If you want to get high, you have to take Drug Drug.

And meanwhile, one email after another is showing up calling *ME* strange?

So what's High Drug and Low Drug, then?  Free Trader slang for passenger
bookings?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:44:57 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:49 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>Somewhere between CT and T4 it was decided that consuming a minimum of
>10% of a ship's mass at the moment of jump was simply too much to
>accomplish in such a short period.  It was decided that the excess
>hydrogen would act as ballast, surrounding the ship as it traversed
>jumpspace.

The problem with this is, if you are using it for ballast, or
cooling, etc., why does it have to be hydrogen?  Why not use
a denser material that can be stored in a smaller volume?

I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
why a jump drive has it's own power supply).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:51:48 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:38:47 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Um, all this had to do with how ships are being deployed
>>for military purposes alone (and how useful that would be
>>for stopping piracy).  So the patrols we are talking
>>about are not patrols to shoot up piracy, but to note
>>that an enemy fleet has appeared and report back.
>>Similarly, the second paragraph was about how long
>>a small ship trying to seek fights would last in
>>a war.

>  Yes, but as indicated since, those same or similar patrols
>would almost certainly also be tasked with detecting and/or
>interdicting enemy commerce raiders or intelligence gathering
>missions. It's perhaps hard to justify that those units would
>be unable to deal with piracy at the same time as their usual
>peacetime patrols.

The patrols in question exist to spot an invaision fleet and
immediately jump back to the main fleet with the news.  They
don't have to be armed enough to be able to stop a pirate,
be close enough to be able arrive in time to stop a pirate,
or even necessarily be able to reliably spot single ships.
Furthermore, the would exist only within some distance
of the frontier.

>  BTW, have you had any further luck with coming up with what
>sources (besides merchants pirating on the side) would provide
>hulls, especially larger ones, for piracy inside the 3I?

I haven't been trying.  You must be thinking of someone else.
I see not reason why pirates don't just use armed comercial
ships.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:43:18 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: java GAL now web-enabled -- use the right browser

Yo Folks,
     I guess I didn't make it clear enough. You need a Java 1.1 enabled
browser to run the web version of java GAL. Check your browser documents to
see what level of support they offer. If you have a browser that is 1.1 and
doesn't work, _then_ let me know. Java 1.0.2 browsers _wil_not_work_.
     http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/weaver/GALApplet.html

     Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:43:19 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

At 08:32 am 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>	Did I get slammed somewhere and not notice it? Guess that's what I get
>> for being too rapid with the delete key...
>
>Actually, David, you might have been hitting the delete key at just the
>right time :)

	Oh, I don't know ... I like to grade that sort of thing for originality,
humor, and reality index every once in a while!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:47:07 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Death of the droyne?

At 10:10 am 10/31/97 -1000, you wrote:
>At 10:19 PM 30/10/97 GMT0, Andrew M J Boulton wrote:
>
>>>  
>>> Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.
>>
>>Marc didn't kill them. The author of the adventure, who obviously knew very 
>>little about Traveller, did. And the IG editor didn't spot it. And neither
>did 
>>the proofreaders.
>
>Could someone tell me more about this? Exactly how were the droyne killed?

	Yes, please. I was under the impression the original reference was to the
demotion of the Aslan from Major Race status to Minor Race status ... Or
did something happen in one of the IG supplements I've 'neglected' to purchase?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:44:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

At 09:14 am 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 02:44 PM 10/29/97 -0500, Marc wrote:
>
>>Poul Anderson's stuff
>
>At last year's BayCon, I was running a late night Traveller game
>(Twilight's Peak) when Poul Anderson came in and asked if he could watch.
>After an hour, he took over for a kid who had to leave.  We played until
>0300, and had a great time.  Poul told me after the game that he's
>role-played off and on for years, and has always enjoyed Traveller.

	Speaking of the good gentleman ... I was reading a coworker's "Byte" the
other day, and in his column he mentioned a renewed interest in film rights
to "The Mote In God's Eye."  I immediately emailed him to express my strong
interest in seeing it done right, and my piteous pleas to protect it from
the people who mauled Heinlein's work ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2036
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2037



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New CSC Features
Re: Death of the droyne?
Re:Recoil Data
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: planetary defenses
Re: TNE bashing (long)
Imperium tech level changes?
GAMING ECON
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: TNE bashing (long)
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Defense for Traveller:The New Era
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments) I
Re: TNE bashing (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:49:27 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

At 04:01 pm 10/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>        I don't think it's possible, given the cubic root function Greg
>>was forced
>>into. IIRC, his advice for layered armor was to just take the larger of the
>>two armor values.
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>
>What do you mean "Greg was forced into". My take on this was that Greg put
>it in himself after doing some research (read curve fitting) on WWII HE
>rounds vs armour. The cube root thing totally contradicts his own 3G3 so I
>see no reason why it was put in - not well supported by real world data and
>(worst of all) made armour MUCH harder to use for "ad hocing".

	IIRC, the damage values and armor ratings for some of the basic weapons
and armor were established before Greg joined the team, using the "this
feels about right ..." method. Greg then had to try to come up with a curve
to describe the progression ("This handgun will go through armor 'X'--real
world data says that's equivalent to about THIS much steel. And this rifle
penetrates armor 'Y,' and I know that a realworld rifle like that will go
through THAT much steel. Now how do I come up with a curve that will
generate numbers that say the same thing.")  Although he did also use the
WWII data to which you refer.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:29:22 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Death of the droyne?

>At 10:19 PM 30/10/97 GMT0, Andrew M J Boulton wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Your memory is flawed.  I was referring to the *Droyne*.
>>
>>Marc didn't kill them. The author of the adventure, who obviously knew very
>>little about Traveller, did. And the IG editor didn't spot it. And neither
>did
>>the proofreaders.
>
>Could someone tell me more about this? Exactly how were the droyne killed?


I think what Andrew is refering to is an adventure in Anomolies where, in
the background section, the author of the adventure got confused between
the Droyne and Grandfathers children. So, acording to the adventure,
Grandfather killed all the Droyne in an [x] century long war (at least, I
hope I got that right). Whether that is what Leroy is referring to - who
knows? Leroy hasn't volunteered any more info on what in particular he is
referring to.

Cheers,
Jason

PS: Hi Harry!!!

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:18:09 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re:Recoil Data

Wildstar wrote:


>Since there's been considerable debate about recoil values and real-world
>weapons, I thought I'd post this bit.  With a little bit of massaging, my
>FF&S2 spreadsheets were coaxed to come up with this table.
[scads of useful data snipped]
>1-Hand     2-Hand
>Recoil     Recoil    General Effect
>0          0         Negligable recoil, no effect.
>1-2        1-2       Light recoil.  Almost all shooters can control weapon.
>3          3-4       Average Recoil.
>4-5        5-6       Heavy Recoil.  Large/strong shooter or special techniques
>6+         7+        Extreme Recoil, unusable by some, uncomfortable for most.
>
>Note that the recoil scale is pretty coarse, and makes some (IMHO) errors.
>For example, I've got experience with .22 target pistols, various 9mm
>automatics, and the Colt Government.  IMHO, the .45 recoil is harder to
>control than 9mm, and definitely much heavier than the .22.  The recoil
>scale puts the .22 and the .45 as the same, on the light side of average,
>and rates the 9mm as heavier.  This is because of the relatively massive
>.45; .45 and 9mm ammo have the same energy.


	Wildstar: thanks.  This is incredibly informative.  Just what I was
looking for.

	Incidentally, it occurred to me just this evening that in Trav,
there are probably going to be worlds where conventional chemical
propellants are going to be either unavailable or simply too expensive...
What might be kinda fun is to see some numbers on things like higher-TL air
guns, steam guns, etc, etc.  Just to make a change...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:30:04 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

Kenji wrote:

>
>Humor?  Oh, you were _kidding_...  The Sayat have many fixations, but in
>this case it's simply a matter of slightly flawed intercultural
>communication.  Not having dangly bits themselves, why not come up with a
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>more useful, more rugged, more destructive equivalent?  It should help them
>win acceptance among these half-human "Imperials" and "Solomani" --
>shouldn't it?


	I seem to recall something about foot-long prehensile clitorises...
I would think that they'd be extremely dangly, no?  Dang!  There goes the
Fifth T4 Prime Directive right out the window again :).


[snip]
>Actually, it's all part of a diabolical Sayat plan.  Charm Famille Spofulam
>with the SHREP armored pram (with anti-hijack system); sell them a fleet
>for use in the FS creches.  Then introduce the PMPP; impugn the manliness
>of those who are afraid to fire it without intertial compensators.  Hengie
>and other male Spofulams will be reproductively incapacitated.  Sayat
>agents will seize remote control of the prams containing Spofulam spawn and
>reroute them to waiting getaway ships.  In a single swoop, the Concourse
>will have acquired a young, malleable population of psychopathic geniuses,
>and prevented the competition from producing more.
>


	Ye gods!  This goes somewhat beyond diabolical.  The thought of
Sayat-raised Spofulams chills the blood.  Of course, this raises the
spectre of the female side of the Famille getting vengefully maternal.
This is just all too apocalyptic for my taste.  I think I'm going to go lie
down now..:)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:23:49 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kenji wrote:

>Roderick wrote:
[snip]
>What's the story with drug drug?  I've heard the joke around here, but
>don't have the reference.  Where can I score some?  (Reference,
>_obviously_)
>


	Well, there are a lot of things like slow drug, fast drug, combat
drug, and so forth...  but nothing recreational.  Drug drug is an obvious,
as is upbeat megalomania drug, comatose stupor drug, screaming
hallucinations drug... the list goes on :).


>[snip]
>>        Actually, this would be a major advantage in zero G.  Aside from
>>the recoil, someone, especially a someone with a relatively lower center of
>>gravity than the average male human, could probably fire one of these
>>babies unbraced without going into a tumble.
>
>Your idom makes me realize that a warning label absolutely needs to be
>attached to the PMPP:  NOT FOR USE BY PREGNANT WOMEN.


	A sobering and a-propos thought indeed...


[snip]
>>
>>        Absolutely.  I mean what good is a plasma novelty if it looks kinda
>>soft and pink and plastic?  It'd have no psychological impact that way!
>
>Gag reflex?


	I'm just not going to go there... nope nope nope...


>
>>You want it to look like it was some sort of bizarre lethal sex-toy built
>>by this sexually, er, deviant species of really depraved and scary humans.
>>
>>        Oh... right.  It is already.  OK, make it look even more so then.
>
>Now, now, now... the Sayat aren't "sexually deviant"; they'd argue that
>it's Homo sapiens sapiens and H. s. vilanensis (etc.) that are the wretched
>mutants.  Clearly the result of genetic manipulation by ancient, lurking
>alien Evil.  How else could normal humans have ended up with half their
>populations suffering from a severe genetic disease?  The entire Y
>chromosome is obviously of alien manufacture; who _knows_ what it really is
>intended to do?  Eh?  Think about it...  "Y" chromosome?  Whose name starts
>with a "Y"?  Yes...
>
>Just as the Vargr were "provolved" into sentience, the hominids on Earth
>and Vland were clearly _devolved_ into a more animalistic state.  Look at
>how fast they breed --- like livestock!  And they have entire _litters_ of
>babies!  And they have buzzy voices; barking, like dogs!  How unnatural!
>For these heinous crimes, the Secret of the Ancients must be discovered
>with "extreme prejudice".

	You know, the more I think about it the more I think that the Sayat
really deserve canonization.  They're a pretty darn cool concept.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:49:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: planetary defenses

Well... I got a thundering lack of response of to my PE/BR query.  maybe BR is
anathema to u T4'ers.  Ah well...   RUs to credit conversion even got their
own page so I'll use that.  In planning my game, though, i began thinking
about other types of planetary defenses.  (Battle) stations caught my eye, so
i began thinking about the design of them.  
      In low tech  (8/9) these would probably be primarily missle based.  I'd
see this as being just a ship w/o drives and possibly even w/o crews.  There
could be (relatively) low cost models w/ maybe one or two missle turrets or
bays, remotely operated.   No life support or accomidations would be needed.
Sensors could be in dedicated sensor arrays or seperate stations or big
stations and need only have a radar/ladar or PEMS for targeting on an unmanned
orbital missle launcher.  
        A full blown battle station would be just like a ship, i assume.
Multiple weapons of multiple types.  Screens defenses.  All w/ very minimal
drives to maintain orbit. Would  full manuever drives be necessary?  Maybe go
w/ something cheap like ion drives or something, if the goal is just to
maintain orbit. 
       My next thought was a ship sized meson station.  I'd see this as being
valuable to my space defense, but is this practical?  or just stick w/ deep
meson sites?  Stations would probably be cheaper than the colossal deep site
mounts. But would they be easily destroyed?  Is there any advantage to a space
based station w/ a meson gun?  or just stick to SDBs and planetary deep mounts
and missles? ditch the whole battle station idea?  
        Assuming battle stations are practical, they could tie into the piracy
thread.  U could drop one off at the 100 diameter limit.  Serve as an
"outsystem" starport/traffic control. 
         I'll work up a couple designs but thought that some of you gearheads
are probably much more proficient than me at this though.  Maybe this has
already been chewed up and spit out?   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:49:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TNE bashing (long)

 TNE was like the New Coke of RPGs.  Take an
established winner and screw with it.  T4 is Coke Classic.

    The "established winner" was dying.  It needed new blood and bad.  If t4
is Coke Classic, it wouldn't have the crap put out it does now.  We wouldn't
be hearing grand tales of an imaginary T4.1.  Look at CT again and u'll see
how immature the rules system is.  That's why T4 isn't just a rehash.  CT is
obviously over two decades old.  MT is obviously one.  TRAVELLER needs new
blood and it's not gonna get it the way things are.  It doesn't matter to me. 
    TNE, IMO, is much better than CT and MT.  MT was all right, but the design
and combat sequences are much better in Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider than
anything t4 has put out.  Combat was not as complicated as it seemed.  Go
through 3 combats and it flows smooth if u've got the intellect of a chia pet.
    The storyline in CT is so damned bland and boring.  The stable Imperium is
boring.  It doesn't attract new gamers otherwise in MMT we'd being seeing
M:1100.    MT had an interesting story and an interesting ending too. : ) All
M:0 is is TNE w/o the Collapse.  U have Wilds, w/ the expansion back into
once civilized space. Pirates et all.  Gurps Traveller should take the us to
alternates.  Better to divorce itself from the boooooring setting completely.
Take us to the Zhodani or center on the Solomani and space to rimward.  
    Interesting how "Coke Classic" has only 6 siders and thruster plates in
common w/ it's forebears.   FF&S is far superior to ANYTHING comparable in CT
and MT. FFS2 is just a reworking of FFS for T4.  The TNE aspects are there
cause it's a TNE product.  The design sequences in MT?  LOL... i don't even
need to go there, do i? CT's stuff is obviously novice.  U can see how the
sophistication grows w/ the later and later works.  Kind of like Oriental
Adventures was to AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed.
    Let's talk about presentation.  T4's stinks.  That foss art.  To say
nothing of the typesetting.  Every one of TNEs books beats the pants off
anything IG has published.                                                    
U may not like the "comic bookish" interior art, but it's better than t4s.
TNE is remiscent of AD&Ds products that sold so well.  You have the headers w/
illustrations and a good feel for the game even if u don't like the rules or
setting.  T4s stuff (the Hardback and Softback, starships, First Survey, M:
0.) They all look like they came off of an old typewriter.  Pocket Empires
looks ok, but on presentation, T4 can't touched TNE yet.
      I've tried to keep quiet and i did through the little snide comments and
the bash at the authors of TNE and their hard sci fi knowledge.  I get fed up
w/ all of the Old Farts and others who can't seem to get enough out of kicking
a dead dog.  A snide comment here and derogatory statement there.  I would
think that Traveller is Traveller and u'd be more supportive.  Very little
that happens in one of your Imperiums is ever gonna be felt in anothers
anyways.  Who cares bout whether *your* Imperium goes into Rebellion,
Collapse, Emperor Dulinor or Lucan or Strephon or Cleon.  Pretty much only you
and *maybe* your players.  I never dogged CT or MT.  Without em there'd have
been no TNE.  
       I put up through all the whining and ranting on the GDW Beta and here
too w/o comment. I'm not interested in a flame war, but enough is enough.
       This is just letting some well built up steam blow.  Give TNE a break.
Your dislike of it is well known.  It's not like u have to moan about
san*klaas hats anymore.  
        IMO, T4 should do what it was said to be about.  Multiple milieu.  M:0
is not gonna hold up the rules set f/e.  Let's see what's next, whatever it
is.  Pump out a Milieu book a year, not one every 2 or 3.  It'll sell more.
TSR proved that every time a setting gets to a sequential product, sales drop.
make a new setting, big sales.  Popular ones can endure more products.  That's
what Traveller always misses.  One Milieu will sink T4, just like one milieu
sank all the others (except TNE which was branching out.  It got sunk by those
damned card games and the shifting market)  Hey i got it!  A pocket empires
card game!  nah... it'd probably have foss art and a bunch of typos...  

Happy Travelling, regardless of Milieu or Era 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:20:43 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Imperium tech level changes?

Hi all,

I know I've seen this before, but damned if I can find it again. Can anyone
tell me in what years the 3rd Imperium "officially" progressed through each
tech level (12->15). Also, what criteria determines when the Imperium has
hit a certain tech level. Is it when x% of the planets are at that level,
when the Emperor feels like proclaiming that they are, or something else?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:43:56 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: GAMING ECON

	First off sorry I know This is not the best place to ask this but its all I
can think of. So once more my apologies.

	Does anybody on the list know were I can get info on the size of the RPG
industry anything will be Greatly appreciated I looking for Sales reports,
The size each Company controls stuff like that. Once more sorry to ask here
but I'm running short on options. Please send replies to Me and not the list 

Thanks in Advance
and Happy Traveling

Victor Woienski
Insert cool sounding quote here :)
tbsvt@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:29:27 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> Comes from the names of the various drugs given back in CT; "Slow Drug",
> "Combat Drug", etc..  If you want to get high, you have to take Drug Drug.

Yes, you must avoid High Drug.  You don't get high, you just get small,
because everything around you appears to be very high.  Low Drug is not
an antidote; you'll get a nasty synergic reaction if you take Low Drug
while you're small.  Low Drug will make everything around you appear to
be very low, including the morals of those you meet.  This makes it a
very dangerous drug in polite company.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:41:00 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements

Marketing research done during the time of the (first) Imperial Grand
Survey indicates the following (some intelligence was gathered by Bill
Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>):

Vilani:  Classic Coke, sometimes called Traditional Coke 

Imperial Solomani: Imperial Coke (created in year 0)

Various Kingdoms & Pocket Empires:  Royal Crown (RC) 

Solomani in the Solomani Sphere:  Pepsi and Mountain Dew

Zhodani: Barq's Root Beer, because the foam goes straight to the
brain...

Vargr:  Jolt! Cola: All the sugar and twice the caffeine.  Need we say
more?

Aslan males:  It doesn't matter; just add some dustspice to it!

Aslan females:  Soft drinks are not cost-effective.  Aslan females drink
warm or cold water for refreshment, tea for medicinal purposes, mild
intoxicants on celebratory occasions.

Hivers:  We don't drink them; they're a manipulation, after all.  

Droyne:  Dr. Pepper, for its mystical symbolism (10-2-4)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:46:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

>>>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as

That's *sick*. I like it!

>>        And if one of my characters ever finds himself being flirted with
>>by a Sayat in the spaceport bar, he is going to run, not walk, back to the
>>ship and hide under his bunk clutching the biggest gun on board until they
>>jump out of system :).                             ^^^

I got a chuckle out of this. Why? Well, there's this old Army/Marine
"chant" that recruits have to recite if they make the mistake of
calling a rifle a gun. ....

In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail
the protagonist into using it by performing a bit of surgery and
telling him that *if* he uses it to assassinate the target (some
"rebel" leaders) they'll arrange for regenerating the missing part.

Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He
advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:02:24 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TNE bashing (long)

At 09:49 PM 30/10/97 EST, you wrote:

>
>Happy Travelling, regardless of Milieu or Era 

Whooo-eee.... lance that boil.....!!!!

I recently read some classic trav sources...

In classic traveller TL-8 was 1980-1989, available in this era were such
delights as fusion power, anti-grav and lasers.

The air-raft, as listed in the Traveller Book, was TL-8

TL-9 started in the 1990's, when we developed jump drives!

My... we were very optomistic!

I played classic trav and I loved it! 
I thought Mega-trav was an excellent upgrade!
TNE was a delight... finally everthing in trav fitted together (scalable
technology)... and it still felt like traveller (although I must admit I
missed the romance of the d6)

I really don't understand why TNE wasn't used as a basis for T4... but with
all the difficult parts made easier, there was such potential.

hmmm..... 

And I must agree... there are far too many snide side comments on this list
about TNE. I like the system, I use it, I don't understand the hostility on
this list to it!
The more TNE gets 'sledged' the more I feel like sledging T$ .... whoops
T4. But then.... why pick on such a large stationary target!

OK... please stop bashing TNE... (see, I'm being nice) what's the point?
(and your wrong anyway!)


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:01:08 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kig=E1msh=E1kruud Roderickgim:

[snip] -- hm, have to come up with a Vilani translation of this, too --

>>Your idom makes me realize that a warning label absolutely needs to be
>>attached to the PMPP:  NOT FOR USE BY PREGNANT WOMEN.
>
>
>        A sobering and a-propos thought indeed...

Yes, I'm simply going to have to design the laser model after all, now...

>[snip]
>>>
>>>        Absolutely.  I mean what good is a plasma novelty if it looks kin=
da
>>>soft and pink and plastic?  It'd have no psychological impact that way!
>>
>>Gag reflex?
>
>
>        I'm just not going to go there... nope nope nope...

I'm pretty sure I know now where you're not going, so let me just say in my
defense that that is not at all the place I had in mind when I wrote what I
did.

[snip]

>        You know, the more I think about it the more I think that the Sayat
>really deserve canonization.  They're a pretty darn cool concept.

I think that given this Fifth Prime Directive of T4 there's not a
snowball's chance in -- um, in a very, very bad place indeed -- of that
coming to pass.  Murderously atheistic Commie lesbians (who probably build
fusion-plus powered water pipes with which to abuse drug drug) aren't what
you'd want to bring home to Mom and Dad from the bar^H^H^H game store.
They'd have to be gutted to the point that they're simply
cooperatively-inclined secular humanists in comfortable shoes.  Oh, I
suppose we could let them keep the red pigmentation.  Sort of like all
those pastel-hued dancing girls that Captain Kirk was always after, right?
That'd be real nice.  (But thanks much for the nomination!)

(And the more I think about it the greater becomes the lurid allure of
identifying "Y"askodray, a.k.a. Grandfather (!), as the ultimate source of
the Patriarchy...)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:00:55 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

Kig=E1msh=E1kruud Roderickgim:

>        I seem to recall something about foot-long prehensile clitorises...
>I would think that they'd be extremely dangly, no?  Dang!  There goes the
>Fifth T4 Prime Directive right out the window again :).

It's those dang Vargr's fault, always rolling it down to stick their heads
out...

Yes, certain weirder-than-I TML inmates^H participants suggested prehensile
ovipositors, and from the genetic engineer's point of view, existing
erectile tissue would be the reasonable point of departure.  This aspect of
Sayat physiology, at least, I'm not inclined to define -- Jeff is being
remarkably tolerant in allowing them into _Freelance Traveller_ as it is
<G>.

Personally, I guess I've been conceiving of them as not having this type of
external genitalia; I still prefer the idea that they _need_ a modicum of
technology just to reproduce.  The idea was that their genetic design
wasn't without flaws and peculiar lacunae.

OTOH, the Sayat are there for people to take and USE; there's absolutely no
reason why they can't have home-grown footlong prehensiles.  Given that
I've also written them as having a fairly good grasp of biomedicine and
genetics, it's plausible that there's a laboratory full of experimental
autoovipositoring Sayat teenagers...

>[snip diabolical Sayat plan]
>>
>        Ye gods!  This goes somewhat beyond diabolical.  The thought of
>Sayat-raised Spofulams chills the blood.  Of course, this raises the
>spectre of the female side of the Famille getting vengefully maternal.
>This is just all too apocalyptic for my taste.  I think I'm going to go lie
>down now..:)

I must confess: it's actually all part of a fiendish plot to keep you from
studying for the bar exams <G>.

But why do you think the SHREP has an anti-hijack system and an armored
passenger compartment?  It's to keep the little ones from GETTING OUT!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:53:18 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

I found this on the  http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html
listed under All About The Traveller Mailing Lists.

The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to discussions on all aspects of
Traveller. It exists as a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange
ideas and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller System, and its
universe. This includes discussions on Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller:
The New Era, Mega Traveller and Classic Traveller. This also includes the
background. 

Hmmm. What was that?
""This includes discussions on Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller: The New
Era, Mega Traveller""

TNE Players and Gm's have every right to be on this group.
Hell I would bet if some posted a Question about the rules
you would just give his/her the cold shoulder. 
The real sad thing is I seen this happen with AD&D,
People who played 2nd Ed. would not talk to people who played 1st Ed.
Just like Warhammer 40k players don't like Doomtrooper players(well in Tucson)
Please just give TNE a break on the mailing list..





http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The Only FIREBASE Games Page on the Web!!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:12:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments) I

>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:51:48 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
....
>The patrols in question exist to spot an invaision fleet and
>immediately jump back to the main fleet with the news.  They
>don't have to be armed enough to be able to stop a pirate,
>be close enough to be able arrive in time to stop a pirate,
>or even necessarily be able to reliably spot single ships.
>Furthermore, the would exist only within some distance
>of the frontier.

Hello,
  That's a remarkably limited picket design - it has one very
specific peacetime and no wartime function. Why don't pirates
just hunt these underarmed things for parts?

>>  BTW, have you had any further luck with coming up with what
>>sources (besides merchants pirating on the side) would provide
>>hulls, especially larger ones, for piracy inside the 3I?
>
>I haven't been trying.  You must be thinking of someone else.
>I see not reason why pirates don't just use armed comercial
>ships.

  No, I was just hoping someone had figured something out along
those lines. I guess negative evidence isn't my favourite way
of looking at things. So far I can construct my best case for
armed standard merchants, but that does completely negate the
possibility of successful combat with even a light SDB.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:29:14 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TNE bashing (long)

>In classic traveller TL-8 was 1980-1989, available in this era were such
>delights as fusion power, anti-grav and lasers.
>
>The air-raft, as listed in the Traveller Book, was TL-8
>
>TL-9 started in the 1990's, when we developed jump drives!
>
>My... we were very optomistic!

Marc Miller hadn't figured in the rise of Po-mo, New age etc that stopped
us from going TL 8 in the nineties (drastic drop in the percentage of
humans capable of rational thought). Just wait a couple of decades like
this and the world will look like Shadowrun ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2037
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2038



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: New CSC Features
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace	 dementia ...)
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
TL
Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era
Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)
That /Anders
Anders cookie
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: TL
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: Transponders.
Starhammer
Re: TNE bashing (long)
Re: That /Anders
Re: That /Anders
Re: Anders cookie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:08:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

>>>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as

>>[snip]

>>        I mean, the recoil is just _way_ too high for a crotch-mounted
>>weapon.  Any human with exterior genitalia would be completely

I just had a flashback to the Babylon 5 episode where Londo was
cheating at cards. I wonder if the Centauri have derringers built to be
handled by that appendage? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:55:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

In mail you write:

> Perhaps the mass of the hydrogen jump fuel/ballast (which occupies the
> remaining space inside the jump bubble) absorbs radiated heat energy.
> Upon returning to N-space, the hydrogen would be released.  The math &
> physics of this I leave up to Leonard and the rest of the "I've
> Memorized Pi Club" :)

Hey! The most digits of pi I ever memorized was 8. That was all my
calculator could handle, so that was all I needed. Besides, if I really
need the it to some ridiculous number of places I can look it up
(Project Gutenberg was distributed a file with pi to 1 million places
:-)

And my mind must be going, as I can never remember more than the first
5 or 6 digits of "c".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:23:21 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

>        IIRC, the damage values and armor ratings for some of the basic weapons
>and armor were established before Greg joined the team, using the "this
>feels about right ..." method. Greg then had to try to come up with a curve
>to describe the progression ("This handgun will go through armor 'X'--real
>world data says that's equivalent to about THIS much steel. And this rifle
>penetrates armor 'Y,' and I know that a realworld rifle like that will go
>through THAT much steel. Now how do I come up with a curve that will
>generate numbers that say the same thing.")  Although he did also use the
>WWII data to which you refer.
>
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Oops, sorry about that. I offer my sincere apologies to Greg for my
misunderstanding of the reasons behind the cursed ^3 rule. As an atonement
i bought CORPS basic system (actually I good off easy as CORPS is actually
a quite good and not the least: VERY well layouted).

BTW When will Gregs vehicle design system be available?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:28:29 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:44:57 -0800,  wrote:

>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:49 GMT
>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>>Somewhere between CT and T4 it was decided that consuming a minimum of
>>10% of a ship's mass at the moment of jump was simply too much to
>>accomplish in such a short period.  It was decided that the excess
>>hydrogen would act as ballast, surrounding the ship as it traversed
>>jumpspace.
>
>The problem with this is, if you are using it for ballast, or
>cooling, etc., why does it have to be hydrogen?  Why not use
>a denser material that can be stored in a smaller volume?
>
>I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
>low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
>why a jump drive has it's own power supply).

I believe that this was the /original/ canon approach.  Over time,
however, someone (?) began to wonder exactly what type of fusion plant
could burn so much liquid hydrogen in so little time.  The idea of the
liquid hydrogen jump bubble came from that.  I /believe/ this
definition is now canon, although I may be wrong.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:28:27 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:54:22 PST, you wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that =
was
>> described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey =
nothingness,
>> white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).
>
>Trouble is, j-space *has* to be pretty darn black. If it isn't, you'll
>fry in your own juices before the week is out.

I'm not saying that J-space isn't [thermally] black... just that any
barrier designed to prevent J-space physics from interacting with
N-space could easily be argued to *have* to be "reflective" (not that
it would be the best way to go, but I could still argue).  If the
thought of matter and antimatter interacting to produce raw energy
sounds violent, just imagine an interaction between the "physics" of
two different dimensions.  Kinda brings up all that Star Trek "a tear
in the fabric of space" stuff :)

Wasn't it Niven that claimed that a stasis field would appear as a
reflective sphere, due to the barrier preventing anything from
entering the region of null-time (including visible light, which would
be reflected back upon the viewer)?  Technically, activating a stasis
field would "create" a new dimension inside it, would it not (a
dimension where time did not exist)?

If we go your way and allow ship occupants to peer out beyond the jump
bubble into J-space, we are allowing photons from J-space to penetrate
into N-space.  I guess you could argue that light in J-space is
physically identical to that in N-space, and that the jump bubble
allows visible light to propagate naturally (like a General Products
hull) while still keeping out all the harmful J-space physics.  But
this is a "handwave".

>The perfect mirror is the *worst* possible situation. If it was true,
>the ship couldn't get rid of *any* heat. And all other radiation
>emitted by the ship would wind up as heat fairly soon. So by the end of
>the week, the ship would have achieved thermal equilibrium... somewhere
>around dull red heat.

Traveller already has problems with ships not being able to radiate
enough heat so this isn't as bad a problem as it sounds.  It only adds
to it.  Considering the *fantastic* excess heat radiation rates that
current Traveller starships seem possess (via super duper power plant
radiators or whatever), is the liquid hydrogen jump "cocoon" any
closer to being feasible?  IOW, is it a bigger "handwave"?

>David Brin wrote a short story that hinges on this exact situation. A
>"hyperspace" that ship's pass thru and that has a "background temp" of
>around 300K.=20

I seem to remember something like that.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:15:36 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")

At 01:01 PM 10/29/97 EST, you wrote:
>I have a copy of Imperium, mostly unpunched, box slightly curved in, 
>with a copyright by "Conflict Game Company", whoever they were ;)
>
>Anyone know what it's worth, and anyone interested in buying same?

Don,

Well,  Imperium originally (Conflict) sold for $12.  You just MIGHT (humor
intended) get a bit more for it now...  Recommendation:  Keep it!  Most of
us who played it when it originally came out had no clue that it was tied
to Traveller!





Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:46:20 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace	 dementia ...)

>I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
>low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
>why a jump drive has it's own power supply).

The flaw with this is (as has been noted on TML earler) that if this is the
case why isn't there ANY inprovement on the fuel efficiency of J-drives as
the TL rises? The fuel consumtion of J-drives is the most important
limiting factor when designing warships and merchants so I'd say some
serious research money must have been spent here.

My take is that the hydrogen is some kind of mass dumped into jumpspace in
order to enter the ship. If you need a handwave for why it has to be
hydrogen lets say that matter containing neutrons as well as protons causes
severe disturbances for the jumpfield. That is also why fuel purifiers
improve jump - They remove deuterium and He etc. All jump hydrogen is
dumped at jumpentry - this explains why you cannot use water, ammonia etc
to store hydrogen efficiently as you need to dump the superpure hydrogen in
a short time. Ships that has more jumpfuel than what can be used up in a
single jump might well store this fuel as water, ammonia and prior to the
next jump (in hyperspace for instance) crack it into LHyd.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:54:05 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

>>At last year's BayCon, I was running a late night Traveller game
>>(Twilight's Peak) when Poul Anderson came in and asked if he could watch.
>>After an hour, he took over for a kid who had to leave.  We played until
>>0300, and had a great time.  Poul told me after the game that he's
>>role-played off and on for years, and has always enjoyed Traveller.
>
>        Speaking of the good gentleman ... I was reading a coworker's
>"Byte" the
>other day, and in his column he mentioned a renewed interest in film rights
>to "The Mote In God's Eye."  I immediately emailed him to express my strong
>interest in seeing it done right, and my piteous pleas to protect it from
>the people who mauled Heinlein's work ...
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

NO you're talking about Mr J Pournelle in response to someones post about
Poul Anderson.
 You wouldn't see Mr Pournelle playing Traveller (well, perhaps TNE), he'd
be more at home in "Twilight2000" or "VietVet the RPG".
As for filming Mote that would be great if they choose a good
director/producer. Lets say they talked Ridley Scott into making SF movies
again...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:01:59 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: TL

Harry wrote:

> In classic traveller TL-8 was 1980-1989, available in this era were such
> delights as fusion power, anti-grav and lasers.
> 
> The air-raft, as listed in the Traveller Book, was TL-8
> 
> TL-9 started in the 1990's, when we developed jump drives!
> 
> My... we were very optomistic!

I've always view this as a benefit to the game.  The TL's, at least in
my opinion, take into account the "spillage" lower tech planets get from
contact with higher tech worlds.

I mean, if you are a TL 9 world, it seems reasonable to me that things
will be imported, by default, from the ships landing at the local
starport.

It might not even have anything to do with jump drives--maybe its
something that leads to indirectly to jump drives.

For instance (and this is a lame example, but you'll get my point), the
groves for rain you see in some road ways were developed as a means to
dry off airplane runways.  It was an afterthought to put them on
interstates as well.

How about the laser in today's world?  Look at all the things it's found
its way into--medical eye surgery, CD's, fine metal etching...this list
goes on and on.

I think Traveller's TL codes, whether by design or accident, reflect
this "spillage" and increase in "infrastructure" nicely.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:06:04 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

>TNE Players and Gm's have every right to be on this group.
>Hell I would bet if some posted a Question about the rules
>you would just give his/her the cold shoulder.
>The real sad thing is I seen this happen with AD&D,
>People who played 2nd Ed. would not talk to people who played 1st Ed.
>Just like Warhammer 40k players don't like Doomtrooper players(well in Tucson)
>Please just give TNE a break on the mailing list..

OK, I'll stop bashing TNE except when necessary ;)
Actually I find the TNE personal combat rules the best version of all
Traveller versions except the superb one in Azhanti High lightning.

Do I get my cookie now?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:00:20 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

	Famille Spofulam's corporate beverage is Jolt^3(tm): "Half the
flavour and eight times the caffeine!"

:)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:13:10 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Perhaps the mass of the hydrogen jump fuel/ballast (which occupies the
> > remaining space inside the jump bubble) absorbs radiated heat energy.
> > Upon returning to N-space, the hydrogen would be released.  The math &
> > physics of this I leave up to Leonard and the rest of the "I've
> > Memorized Pi Club" :)
> 
> Hey! The most digits of pi I ever memorized was 8. That was all my
> calculator could handle, so that was all I needed. Besides, if I really
> need the it to some ridiculous number of places I can look it up
> (Project Gutenberg was distributed a file with pi to 1 million places
> :-)
> 
> And my mind must be going, as I can never remember more than the first
> 5 or 6 digits of "c".
> 

3.1415926535897926 is as much as I know.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:40:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace dementia (was Re: Misjumps)

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>=20
> > (BTW, I like the "perfect mirror" description of the jump bubble that w=
as
> > described during this thread. :-) Much better than the grey nothingness=
,
> > white noise, or void that I had envisioned myself).
>=20
> Thanks.  I was also thinking that (uh-oh), to make such a concave mirrore=
d
> reflection seem even stranger, you could introduce stray power surges tha=
t
> make their way to the jump bubble due to *minor* impurities in the liquid
> hydrogen.  They could create momentary bulges or ripples that could give
> the jump bubble reflection a little "life" to it.  It would also help to
> create some discomfort for anyone viewing it, driving home the notion tha=
t
> the jump bubble is very delicate indeed, and that it is all that stands
> between them and their doom.  Bwah-hah-hah-hah!
>=20
>=20
Seem to me to imagine a water-like interior surface of the jump "bubble".
I think of this like the effect they took in "StarGate" for the gate, but=
=20
now surrounding the whole ship. Maybe the surface has a very high total=20
reflection index, because of the different phisical environments in- and=20
outside? I still don=B4t think that will drive you insane, but poor=20
claustrophobics ... shall they stare on the walls or out of the window on=
=20
this wabering mirror?

Today in an evil mind, (hey, it=B4s Halloween)
L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:03:22 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: That /Anders

 O.K what was Azhanti High lightning.?
Now my brain in overtime and keep thinking of Snapshot.
So which was which

Thanks


http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The Only FIREBASE Games Page on the Web!!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:55:53 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Anders cookie

>
>OK, I'll stop bashing TNE except when necessary ;)
>Actually I find the TNE personal combat rules the best version of all
>Traveller versions except the superb one in Azhanti High lightning.
>
If Azhanti High lightning is the one I'am thinking about
Was it also called snapshot??
Now that was a real sharp set of rules.
I would use that with my old Laser Burn Fig's, Start playing at 5 or 6pm
and quit around 2am..

And for your cookie, Sorry but cookie's make you fat

see ya
 

http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The Only FIREBASE Games Page on the Web!!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:35:28 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:

> I can't think of any softdrinks for the Aliens.  Aslan, Vargr, Great 
> old..er...I mean Hivers.
> 

The Aslan, as I remind me, had a form of tea, that was once published in 
JTAS as a special cargo (have to read it again for the name). This one 
would even be canon.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:30:43 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: TL

I look at the TL in TNE and even MT/CT when I played like this.
You have a world that is TL:A , But there space program could be only TL:9
Maybe there first jump drive test missed jump and the program was set back
a tech level or two.
Or you have a TL:B world but has to arm there ships with missiles
becouse they just can't find the right power setting for beam lasers

All in all it could make a fun game setting.
  

http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
The Only FIREBASE Games Page on the Web!!
And 
Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:33:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:

> Funny you should ask that.  One day after receiving the "Bilanidin Bold"==20
> font, i decided to decode some of the script found in various T4=20
> publications.  In Psi Institutes, in the scene where the psion is lifting==20
> the object with many citizens around him watching.  If you look at one of==20
> the signs it is a COKE advertisement!  The Coca Cola company survives int=o=20
> the 3rd Imperium!
>=20

That reminds me that I always searched for fonts with the letters that=20
are shown on such pictures. Remember the writings on the Equipment detail==20
sheets. I always suspected they were real letter symbols, but I couldn=B4t==20
figure out their meanings.  Anyone here can tell me if and where I can get==20
these and other fonts, if they really exist?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:42:21 +0000
From: "J." <jonathan@hccm.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Transponders.

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, GUY HUNTER wrote:
>Hmmm, if i might interject here - why would you have to indicate your
>maneuver or jump types - its of no interest to anyone else and can take
>away your chance of surprise if you needed to outrun someone - 

Hmmmm, good point. I included Jump and Maneuver types because of an example
in the SOM. The reason the SOM has them is so military ships can pretend to
be far better than they actually are, if it wasn't standard practice to
broadcast these details the bluff wouldn't work, would it?

>Also you would have to have the transponder updated everytime you change the
>engines... 

How often do your players have their engines changed? :)
Changing engines isn't really a regular occurance, it generally means a major
change to the internal structure of the ship. Having your transponder ID 
updated and your registration changed would hardly be a hassle compared to
actually having the engine fitted.

>And the registration ID is kinda cool but with trillions of citizens it
>would be difficult to process that kind of data to be reliable - it would
>make creating your own ID very easy... 

ID are only required for those citizens who leave their homeworld, like
a passport if you don't want to travel you don't need one. I'm not suggesting
that a huge database be kept of every citizen. There isn't a database
holding everyone with a valid passport on earth. My idea of Imperial Passports
is a document similar to our current passports, getting hold of one is 
difficult it general involves applying to your subsector capital and waiting.
Of course you can always join the military/merchants as a quick way to get
one,
serve four years and leave, this would explain why so many PC's are
ex-military
or ex-merchant.

>I guess I have seen this discussion stay on this list maybe to long - it
>is just a game - and piracy and such things add to the game.

Agreed. It is a game. If PC's (or NPC's) can't go around fiddling with 
transponders and faking transponder ID's and passports I'd lose a lot of
plot devices. I also feel that Piracy adds to the game without it my players
would rarely get involved in space combat, I don't care about whether it's
possible to stamp out piracy. I want pirates in my game so they are in my 
game. 

Similarly I want transponder tampering, so it exists, but I want
it to be difficult and I want to be a risk the players have to consider
carefully before they do it.

I also like to portray the Imperium as a huge bureaucracy that does get tied
up in it's own paper work, so having to change your transponder when you
change your ship is suitable for my games.

J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:36:03 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Starhammer

I read Starhammer ages ago. What are the others in the series?

Martin.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:53:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: TNE bashing (long)

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, TravelrTNE wrote:

[snipsnap]

>     Let's talk about presentation.  T4's stinks.  That foss art.  To say
> nothing of the typesetting.  Every one of TNEs books beats the pants off
> anything IG has published.                                               =
    =20

Sorry, I like the art of T4 more than TNE=B4s, but that=B4s my opinion.=20

[snipped again]

>   IMO, T4 should do what it was said to be about.  Multiple milieu.  M:0
> is not gonna hold up the rules set f/e.  Let's see what's next, whatever =it
> is.  Pump out a Milieu book a year, not one every 2 or 3.  It'll sell more.
> TSR proved that every time a setting gets to a sequential product, sales drop.
> make a new setting, big sales.  Popular ones can endure more products.  That's
> what Traveller always misses.  One Milieu will sink T4, just like one milieu
> sank all the others (except TNE which was branching out.  It got sunk by those
> damned card games and the shifting market)  Hey i got it!  A pocket empires
> card game!  nah... it'd probably have foss art and a bunch of typos... =20

I do also await another Milieu Book (although here in Germany I think=20
I=B4ll have to wait an additional year for it ...) The Milieu 0 is fine for==20
one purpose: Exploring the now unknown space around the small Imperium.
But it has the problem (for me) that you can=B4t use the Alien Races that==20
as they haven=B4t been contacted yet. So there is missing a whole part of==20
the established Traveller Universe.

Also, I would be interested, if IG wants to go into the New Era Milieu=20
again or if they consider an alternate Timeline as GURPS intends to do.
(Just an idea, Time Travel comes to my mind, so don=B4t sue me, I know,=20
what is the opinion about it - although I could think a not too powerful=20
solution to that)

Hope to see soon of the other Milieus.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:17:52 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: That /Anders

Azhanti High Ligtening is a Traveller Game set in the Classic Traveller
genre.  It has beautiful full color deck plans of the Azhanti High
Lightening Class Cruisers.  There is a separate rules booklet and
supplement #5, High Lightening Class Cruisers.  
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:08:01 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: That /Anders

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Lee Neal wrote:

>  O.K what was Azhanti High lightning.?
> Now my brain in overtime and keep thinking of Snapshot.
> So which was which
>=20

Snapshot is a boxed rules game specially designed for shipboard combat.
AHL is a CT supplement, so I think.

All I know is, that the Azhanti High Lightning was this flying=20
Skyscraper also used for the Arrival Vengeance in MT.=20
There weren=B4t much ships bigger in the Traveller Universe, I believe.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:18:39 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Anders cookie

Lee Neal wrote:
> 
> >
> >OK, I'll stop bashing TNE except when necessary ;)
> >Actually I find the TNE personal combat rules the best version of all
> >Traveller versions except the superb one in Azhanti High lightning.
> >
> If Azhanti High lightning is the one I'am thinking about
> Was it also called snapshot??
> Now that was a real sharp set of rules.
> I would use that with my old Laser Burn Fig's, Start playing at 5 or 6pm
> and quit around 2am..
> 
> And for your cookie, Sorry but cookie's make you fat
> 
> see ya
> 
> 
> http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/
> The Only FIREBASE Games Page on the Web!!
> And
> Mark Bisson "New Steel Panthers Page"
> http://freespace.virgin.net/em.bis/

- -- 
Snapshot (and May Day) are two separate games.
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2038
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2039



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: That /Anders
Re: New CSC Features
Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era
Killing Major races
Re: TL
CSC Website Fixed
TNE, T4, MT, CT bashing...
TNE, T4, MT, CT bashing...
FF&S2 Ratings...
Orbital Bombardment Platform (TL10)
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Two Questions for consideration (was: Re: Interworld Commerce) 
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: UH?
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)
Re: TL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:12:46 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: That /Anders

> O.K what was Azhanti High lightning.?
>Now my brain in overtime and keep thinking of Snapshot.
>So which was which
>
>Thanks

AHL was a boxed supplement for CT consisting of (I think) 14 deckplans of
the Azhanti Highlightning, counters, a rules booklet and a scenario
booklet. The combat system used very simple mechanics yet managed to force
the players to plan their strategy. It used stats compatible with Striker I
and had some cool scenarios especially "The great wine heist". Some very
ballsy criminals hidden inside cargocrates were to steal the emperors Tokaj
Escenzia wineload by going to the cargo area and steal a shipsboat and
flee.

In a later unrelated adventure (The Traveller adventure?) in the library
data section a note was that wine could sell as high as 1 MCr per bottle
for some stolen wine with the same name. Presumably the criminals got away
with their heist and were well paid for the effort.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:45:11 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

>BTW When will Gregs vehicle design system be available?

Its out!! Its out!!! Its out!!!!! (well, at least the electronic version
is). Last I looked the BTRC web page hadn't been updated, but you can
purchase the electronic (Adobe Acrobat) version at Hyperbooks (link on the
BTRC web page). I haven't digged too deeply into it yet (I've only had it
for 24 hours, and most of that has been sleep and work), but it seems to be
the high quality that I've come to expect from Greg and BTRC.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:55:28 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

Lee Neal wrote:
> 
> Hmmm. What was that?
> ""This includes discussions on Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller: The New
> Era, Mega Traveller""
> 
> TNE Players and Gm's have every right to be on this group.

I agree totally, even though I don't play the game.

> Hell I would bet if some posted a Question about the rules
> you would just give his/her the cold shoulder.

I doubt it. I still post questions about MT to this list and get
useful answers. I haven't encountered any flak about it.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:19:52 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Killing Major races

Interesting thought, the one I inferred from certain posts; that the Aslan
were 'killed off' by the discovery that they were a minor race.

Imagine the conference scene; the major races seated around the table,
discussing weighty matters like what to serve at the after-conference
lunch. Aslan ambassador arrives.
	"Why was I not invited?" demands Aslan ambassador. "My clan commands a...
uh... very large number... of warships, or so my mate tells me! Surely I
cannot be left out of this discussion?"
	"Hah!" reply the other emissaries, "But you're just a Minor Race! Na na
nana na!"
	"OK," says the Aslan ambassador. "So we no longer count in interstellar
affairs. That's OK."
	"That's about it, Minor Race boy!"
	"I'll just kill you all instead!" (rip, snarl, tear.) "Now, who ELSE says
the Aslan are a Minor race?"

	
As an aside, if we can't canonise the Sayat, can we cannonade them instead?

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:25:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: TL

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Lee Neal wrote:

> I look at the TL in TNE and even MT/CT when I played like this.
> You have a world that is TL:A , But there space program could be only TL:=
9
> Maybe there first jump drive test missed jump and the program was set bac=
k
> a tech level or two.
> Or you have a TL:B world but has to arm there ships with missiles
> becouse they just can't find the right power setting for beam lasers
>=20
> All in all it could make a fun game setting.
>  =20
I suppose the TL of a world should never be understood as TL in every=20
branch. It should be considered as an average TL - i.e. some things are=20
higher, others are lower on this world - or the one of the highest branch.
Think of our own world, pre-spaceflight Terra.=20
Our space tech does not differ much from that of 30 years ago - we still=20
use rockets to propel our astronauts into orbit, making it TL 7 to 8. (The=
=20
equipment, although, got better.)
But our Computers seem to get advanced even more and more - assuming TL 9=
=20
is short before, if not even here. I mean - if we=B4re able to put real=20
looking Dinosaurs on the screen - but not able to cross the distance to=20
Alpha Centauri in one week - what tech level should this be?

I remind an article about twisted tech levels in the Challenge Magazine -

  "This is only a tech level 4 world, so it won=B4t be much interesting for=
=20
   us ..."
  "Are you sure? Then explain to me how they=B4ve got this colony on their=
=20
   moon!"

I think this way it was always to be seen.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1997 13:41:01 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Website Fixed

I've fixed the link in the CSC website.  (Thanks to Anders for pointing out
the problem.)  You should now be able to get the latest version at:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:07:26 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: TNE, T4, MT, CT bashing...

Hmmmm.

I find the biggest problems between Traveller editions are the wholesale
mechanics changes, so that MT, while it bore some resemblance to CT, was
not built upon/corrected when TNE was thrust on us. And when TNE died, MMT
went off in its own direction again.

I recently played some AD&D (yes, I was coerced by my gaming group), and I
found it wasn't nearly as ungainly a game as I remembered it -- yet it
still felt like it was a direct descendant of the original -- the "flavor"
was still there, with improved, evolved rules. TNE never did this (although
I liked the GDW house rules, I didn't find that much Traveller flavor in
them), and T4 does so marginally (again, only MHO -- people's tastes and
expectations vary). Wouldn't it have been great if CT had been built upon
so that now, we did have 20 years of evolution from the original set?

But I'm digressing.

Main Point:

I find it incomprehensible that animosity between edition supporters
springs up like this every now and then. I mean, the last few books for TNE
were just as ugly as anything that appeared from IG, while (IMHO) the best
supplements for T4 are about as good as anything that's was put out for TNE.

People who don't recognize problems in each edition (CT - too basic, MT -
too many typos, TNE, T4....well, we're all familiar with those
arguments...) are wearing blinders. If they want to, that's fine. We all do
from time to time.

But people who start bleating that they or their system are being picked
upon because others have noticed the flaws seem to be missing the point. I
haven't seen anyone trying to push TNE off of TML (although I may have
missed something -- I've been tuning off since the recent flame wars
ignited again). Similarly, I'm amazed some people seem unable to see that
IG has produced some pure, unadultreated CRAP along with a few fine pieces
(PI, PE).

I've played all versions, and enjoyed all versions. I've been pissed off by
limitations and mistakes in all versions. I'm currently playing
GURPS:Traveller (my own conversions) because of the poor quality of the
early IG releases, but I am looking forward to T4.1. Hell, IG cashed my
check a while ago for it. :-)

We each have our own Platonic Ideal of what Traveller is and isn't. But in
a forum where the exchange of ideas is the whole point, let's try and get
over our thin skins as well.

John Kovalic



**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:07:26 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: TNE, T4, MT, CT bashing...

Hmmmm.

I find the biggest problems between Traveller editions are the wholesale
mechanics changes, so that MT, while it bore some resemblance to CT, was
not built upon/corrected when TNE was thrust on us. And when TNE died, MMT
went off in its own direction again.

I recently played some AD&D (yes, I was coerced by my gaming group), and I
found it wasn't nearly as ungainly a game as I remembered it -- yet it
still felt like it was a direct descendant of the original -- the "flavor"
was still there, with improved, evolved rules. TNE never did this (although
I liked the GDW house rules, I didn't find that much Traveller flavor in
them), and T4 does so marginally (again, only MHO -- people's tastes and
expectations vary). Wouldn't it have been great if CT had been built upon
so that now, we did have 20 years of evolution from the original set?

But I'm digressing.

Main Point:

I find it incomprehensible that animosity between edition supporters
springs up like this every now and then. I mean, the last few books for TNE
were just as ugly as anything that appeared from IG, while (IMHO) the best
supplements for T4 are about as good as anything that's was put out for TNE.

People who don't recognize problems in each edition (CT - too basic, MT -
too many typos, TNE, T4....well, we're all familiar with those
arguments...) are wearing blinders. If they want to, that's fine. We all do
from time to time.

But people who start bleating that they or their system are being picked
upon because others have noticed the flaws seem to be missing the point. I
haven't seen anyone trying to push TNE off of TML (although I may have
missed something -- I've been tuning off since the recent flame wars
ignited again). Similarly, I'm amazed some people seem unable to see that
IG has produced some pure, unadultreated CRAP along with a few fine pieces
(PI, PE).

I've played all versions, and enjoyed all versions. I've been pissed off by
limitations and mistakes in all versions. I'm currently playing
GURPS:Traveller (my own conversions) because of the poor quality of the
early IG releases, but I am looking forward to T4.1. Hell, IG cashed my
check a while ago for it. :-)

We each have our own Platonic Ideal of what Traveller is and isn't. But in
a forum where the exchange of ideas is the whole point, let's try and get
over our thin skins as well.

John Kovalic



**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:32 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: FF&S2 Ratings...

I'm putting the final touches on my FF&S starship design worksheet...it
should be  up on my web site this weekend. I'll notify this list to it's
location and such when it's available.

I'm finishing the USP page - and I want to get people's opinions on the
format. FF&S has it's own format, kindof freeform, that I'm not too found
of. I like the QSDS/SSDS format. However, the QSDS/SSDS format doesn't
allow for all the information that FF&S contains. So I sort of merged them
together...here's what I came up with (by the way, this is directly from
the spreadsheet):

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
Aurora, Aurora class far trader
Designed by Andrew Akins

Statistics
  Tons: 200std (SL Slab HS)        Crew: 3/4           Cargo:58std (0/4)
  Volume: 2800m3                   Pass Hi/Med: 0/7    Cost: 68.3MCr
  Mass (L/C): 2,767t/1,810t        Pass Low: 4         MP: 63
  Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m Troops/Science: 0/0 TL: 12
  Size: 8                          Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics:
  Controls: Dynamic. Standard Automation. 3xComputer (/CP:.45). No bridge.
  Commo: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
  Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5, 0.00MW). 1xAEMS (7, 0.02MW).
  Survey/Science:
  ECM:

Weaponry                             Performance
  2xLaser Turret (+0) 1/1-1-0-0         2 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
                                  1.0/1.5 Maneuver (/Thruster:70MW)
                                  1.0/1.5 Contra-Grav (48MW)
                                        1 Power (/Fusion:130MW,1.0)
                                     41.4 Fuel (/Scoop:5 /Purif:6,3MW)
                               0/11/0/4/0 Acommodations
                                       33 Life Support (/Type:St /FQ:N /Sto)
                                        2 G-Comp 
                                        0 ESA
                                        0 Sandcasters
                                        0 Damper Turrets
                                        0 Damper Screens
                                        0 Meson Screens
                                        0 Force Field
                                        0 Gravtics
        -0.5/0.0 (-0.5/0.0 at 13MW), -1.5 Signature
                                       10 Armor, Structure 11

Features
  2xAirlock               1xDocking Umbilical

Small Craft
  1xMinimal Hangar (2std craft)

Backups
  Drives:
  Screens:
  Commo:
  Sensors:
  Survey/Science:
  ECM:
  Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
  2xMnvr. 1xEngr. 1xMed.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
It looks alot better in the worksheet 'cause I use fonts.

Most of it should be self explanatory -
  All weaponry, armor and structure are rated using the USP system in
QSDS/SSDS.
  The mass is Loaded/Clean.
  Crew is M/C, where M is minimal crew and C is complete crew. Minimal crew
    is defined as the crew members needed to just move the ship - it does not
    include maintenance, gunnery, screens, flight, troops, command, steward, 
    or medical. Basically, the ship could go somewhere, but couldn't do it's
    job.
  Sensors and communications are rated ( N, P ) where N is the
range/sensitivity
    and P is the power used.
  The Maneuver and Contra Grav are Loaded/Clean
  The Power extra data is (MW produced,Fuel duration)
  The Purification extra data is (hours to purify,MW used)
  Accomodations are the number of bunks/small rooms/large rooms/low/emer low
  Life support is the number of man-days of supplies are carried. /Type:
    represents type of life support (in this case standard). /FQ: is the
    food quality (in this case normal). /Sto means food storage is present.
  G-Comp is the number of Gs compensated by the grav plates. If G-Tanks
    are present, they are shown afterward as (/G-Tanks:P,C) where P is
    the number of passenger G-Tanks, C is the number of Crew G-tanks.
    G-Tanks are NOT included in the basic G-Comp rating, even if present.
  ESA is the protection value of the ESA generator, if present followed
    by (/ROD:N) where N is the number of discharges allowed in a turn.
  Sancasters is the number of sandcasters, followed by (/AV:N,/Cans:C) 
    where N is the AV provided by one canister of sand and C is the
    number of cans each sandcaster carries.
  Damper Turrets is the number of damper turrets, followed by (0MW /Rng:N)
    the power used by each turret and the range of each turret, N.
  Damper Screen is the protection value produced by the screen, followed by
    the power use (0MW).
  Meson Screen is the protection value produced by the screen, followed by
    the power use (0MW).
  Force field is the flicker rate followed by (/Acc:N MJ/tn) where N is the
    total number of MJ the field can absorb in a turn. This includes jump
    capacitors as well as dedicated accumulators.
  Gravtics is the number of gravtic systems, followed by (0MW /Sys:N kN)
    where /Sys: is /Tractor:, /Repulsor:, or /Manipulator: and N is the
    amount of force the gravtic can provide.
  Signature is right out of the FF&S2 manual.
  

So....what do people think? 

I think something like this would be useful to define entries for THUDDD 7,
for people using FF&S2.

Please let me know.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1997 14:35:37 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Orbital Bombardment Platform (TL10)

Orbital Bombardment Platform (TL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     15.00 displacement ton sphere;  294 tonnes;  MCr 8.81
Chassis:
     210 kL sphere (7.4 m long x 7.4 m wide x 7.4 m high);  Structure: 1.90
tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.5 cm thick, sealed to 1 atm,
10 armour rating
     
Performance:
     25.6 MW TL10 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 12.8 kL of enriched water
(12.8 tonnes), 1000 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 10.0 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power and
orbital thrusters; 
Maximum Speed: 89 km/h; 
Range: 88698 km;  Agility: 0DM (2.9G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot, commander, 3 weapons officers;  5 crew stations;  10
roomy passenger seats
     Standard life support, waste handling and shower facilities; Airlocks: 1
normal; Grav Compensation (1G), Whole vehicle compensated
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Bomb, Orbital-9                 56 exp    Contact        1       219    
  +5DM, remote
     Bomb, Orbital-9                 56 exp    Contact        1       219    
  +5DM, remote
     Bomb, Orbital-9                 56 exp    Contact        1       219    
  +5DM, remote
     Autocannon, RF Lt-8             9         Long           1000    15     
  +5DM, remoteturret
     Autocannon, RF Lt-8             9         Long           1000    15     
  +5DM, remoteturret
     Missile, AA-8                   22 exp    Long           1       50     
  +5DM, remote
Communications:
     Far Orbit Radio (10.0 MW, TL10, MilSpec)
     Orbital Laser (1.00 MW, TL10, SmVcl, MilSpec)
     Orbital Maser (1.00 MW, TL10, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     Active Orbital Radar (1.00 MW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 1.0 mm
per km of range
     Active Orbital Lidar (1.00 MW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 0.200 mm
per km of range
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, recreation space, kitchen for 15
simultaneous meals
     800 L of cargo space

"Hold the high ground" has long been a military maxim. With this Orbital
Bombardment Platform, the high ground proves to be a very tangible advantage.
Three ordinance bays can launch up to 660 pieces of guided bombardment
devices, while two rapid-fire autocannons and over 50 missiles protect the
platform itself. Roomy facilities for three crew shifts provide for enhanced
combat readiness for long-term missions lasting up to 1000 hours.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:06:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

In mail you write:

>>>Poul Anderson's stuff
>
>      Speaking of the good gentleman ... I was reading a coworker's "Byte" the
> other day, and in his column he mentioned a renewed interest in film rights
> to "The Mote In God's Eye."  I immediately emailed him to express my strong
> interest in seeing it done right, and my piteous pleas to protect it from
> the people who mauled Heinlein's work ...
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

Poul Anderson doesn't write for Byte, and he has nothing to do with
Mote in God's Eye. You are thinking of Jerry Pournelle.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:19:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcus Teter <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Two Questions for consideration (was: Re: Interworld Commerce) 

> From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> Subject: Interworld Commerce
> 
> How much traffic does a world generate?  How much intra-system traffic?
> What kind of ships?

I've been working on expanding out the trade to large scales and was
wondering about a couple of things:

1) Does the Imperium trade with its neighbors?  It would seem likely that
they do, but it is not clear which neighbors would get the trade.  What
thinks the list?  What is the Cannon position on this?

2) I'd like to get a tally of the sectors that have been detailed, and
where they were published.  It would also be helpful to know what eras
they are relevant to ( for example Diaspora has been detailed for M1100
and TNE). 

Thanks,
TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:31:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

In mail you write:

>>Humor?  Oh, you were _kidding_...  The Sayat have many fixations, but in
>>this case it's simply a matter of slightly flawed intercultural
>>communication.  Not having dangly bits themselves, why not come up with a
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>more useful, more rugged, more destructive equivalent?  It should help them
>>win acceptance among these half-human "Imperials" and "Solomani" --
>>shouldn't it?

>         I seem to recall something about foot-long prehensile clitorises...
> I would think that they'd be extremely dangly, no?  Dang!  There goes the
> Fifth T4 Prime Directive right out the window again :).

The "dangly bits" that make crotch mounted weapons such a pain are the
*paired* item, not the singlular item. Sayat *do* lack those,
regardless of whether or not you go with the (optional) ovipositor.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:13:46 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

Lars Adler wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:
>=20
> > Funny you should ask that.  One day after receiving the "Bilanidin Bo=
ld"
> > font, i decided to decode some of the script found in various T4
> > publications.  In Psi Institutes, in the scene where the psion is lif=
ting
> > the object with many citizens around him watching.  If you look at on=
e of
> > the signs it is a COKE advertisement!  The Coca Cola company survives=
 into
> > the 3rd Imperium!
> >
> That reminds me that I always searched for fonts with the letters that
> are shown on such pictures. Remember the writings on the Equipment deta=
il
> sheets. I always suspected they were real letter symbols, but I couldn=B4=
t
> figure out their meanings.  Anyone here can tell me if and where I can =
get
> these and other fonts, if they really exist?

The Commander is referring to a font I created called "Bilanidin". I
uploaded a "beta" version, based on pictures in DGP's Starship Operators
Guide to my website, so those on the TravLang list could comment.

I'm in the process of adding numbers, punctuation, and tonality marks to
the typeface; for now all it contains are the letters a-z.

The font is similar to the equipment detail sheets you mention, but
might not be useful for translating what they mean, since the encoding
seemed to be different from product to product. I used the SOM because
it had the largest sample of the same character substitution.


You can find it at the following URL:

<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>
(Mac TrueType version)

<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\bilani.zip>
(PC TrueType version)


Note to TravLang members: PC version works now. Thanks Jo Grant for
converting the Mac version. I still need to figure out what I did wrong
the first time... anyone out there have experience with Fontographer?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:34:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: UH?

In mail you write:

> I don't know how to break this to you folks, but... we had baseball 
> here _first_.  It was played for many years in Derby, England;
> indeed, until this autumn Derby County F.C. played at a ground called 
> the Baseball Ground, 'cause -- you guessed it -- it's where baseball 
> used to be played.  A looong time ago.

Well, baseball dates back to before the US Civil War, so I don't know
if that counts as "a looong time ago".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:08:34 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace dementia ...)

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:44:57 -0800,  wrote:
> 
> >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:49 GMT
> >From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> >>Somewhere between CT and T4 it was decided that consuming a minimum of
> >>10% of a ship's mass at the moment of jump was simply too much to
> >>accomplish in such a short period.  It was decided that the excess
> >>hydrogen would act as ballast, surrounding the ship as it traversed
> >>jumpspace.
> >
> >The problem with this is, if you are using it for ballast, or
> >cooling, etc., why does it have to be hydrogen?  Why not use
> >a denser material that can be stored in a smaller volume?

Because hydrogen is simplest, most abundant element in the universe.

<handwave ON>
More complex gasses don't react well to the jumpspace interface. They
cause disturbances in the jumpspace field. This is why using unrefined
hydrogen that has trace quantities of deuterium and tritium, instead of
100% pure protium, gives one a possibility of misjump.

> >I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
> >low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
> >why a jump drive has it's own power supply).
> 
> I believe that this was the /original/ canon approach.  Over time,
> however, someone (?) began to wonder exactly what type of fusion plant
> could burn so much liquid hydrogen in so little time.  The idea of the
> liquid hydrogen jump bubble came from that.  I /believe/ this
> definition is now canon, although I may be wrong.

Actually, no, it's not canon, since the jump ballast theory has never
been published in Traveller materials, afaik.

I think it's canon for the TML, though, since most people agree it's the
most elegant handwave. :-) It won me over, anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:36:19 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TL

Lee Neal wrote:
> 
> I look at the TL in TNE and even MT/CT when I played like this.
> You have a world that is TL:A , But there space program could be only TL:9
> Maybe there first jump drive test missed jump and the program was set back
> a tech level or two.

I use the TL detailing rules in MT's World Builder's Handbook when I
need to find this out.  Those rules do exactly what you're describing
here.

For instance, my characters are currently on Pysadi.  The planet is
overall TL 4, but the weapon technology (determined with WBH) is only TL
2.  I have the Pysadian Salvors (guards) running around with staves of
office and one shot flintlock pistols and rifles.

I was really happy when I determined this result (WBH TL detailing uses
die rolls with results based on the planet's overall TL) because it
corresponds with the political outlook on the planet about weapons.  I
couldn't have done it better if I had just made it up.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2039
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2040



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: jump fuel/ballast
Re: planetary defenses
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Trav Cmbt Sys
Re: TNE Items For Sale
Re: planetary defenses
Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")
Re: Transponders.
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2039
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Imperium tech level changes?
Choice is a Benefit
Re: TNE bashing (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:40:40 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: jump fuel/ballast

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>Somewhere between CT and T4 it was decided that consuming a minimum of
>10% of a ship's mass at the moment of jump was simply too much to
>accomplish in such a short period.  It was decided that the excess
>hydrogen would act as ballast, surrounding the ship as it traversed
>jumpspace.

Actually, I think the favoured interpretation is that the jump fuel gets
dumped into some different (lower) level of jumpspace to let the ship
ascend to the (higher) level it wants to. (At least that's what I favour.)
It doesn't *have* to be hydrogen - note that you can jump with unrefined 
fuel, which is basically methane or water - but for subtle quantum 
technobabble reasons it works best if you're dumping only protons and
electrons.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:48:01 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: planetary defenses

>        A full blown battle station would be just like a ship, i assume.
>Multiple weapons of multiple types.  Screens defenses.  All w/ very minimal
>drives to maintain orbit. Would  full manuever drives be necessary?

You probably do need maneuver drives of some sort (at least a tenth of a G),
since what limits laser range (to first order) is the ability of the target
to evade in the light-travel time of the shot; if you can't evade, 
attackers can hit you with lasers from well outside the range you can hit
them. (In BL/BR terms, a station without maneuver drives wouldn't get the
- -1 DM/3 hexes - you can easily see how it would get hammered to death by
enemies at 40 hexes or so.)

In addition, without some maneuver capability to change your orbit by a 
fair amount every day or so you're very vulnerable to swarms of relativisitic
rocks.

In general, I think any fixed installation smaller than a big asteroid is
too vulnerable - ships are the way to go for defence.

(Although planets may well have large numbers of disposable missile  boxes in
orbit - to pre-position missiles above the atmosphere. There may also be
large numbers of orbiting laser turrets (remote controlled) since lasers
are much more effective if they start above the atmosphere. (There's an
argument to be made that grav focus doesn't work inside an atmosphere.) 
There'd be several sensor arrays in orbit too - I guess the picture to go for
is large numbers of small, independent, low-value orbital isntallations rather
than a big battle station crying out for Merrick to hit it with a 0.1c KKM.) 

(Another handy planetary defence trick is mines - you can make a 0.2 m3 
warhead-only mine nearly undetectable in FFS2; seed the close orbit space witht
them as a last line of defence. Control them from the ground.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:44:06 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

At 03:19 AM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.
>>
>> Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Tyrosine, Uranyl
>
>You mean *Uracil*(sp). Uranyl is is a radical containing *uranium*. :-)
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
	Clearly, uranyl is used by those life forms that are in more
	of a state of genetic "flux." Sort of a built-in mutator.


Tim Connors

All probabilities are 50% -- either a thing will happen or it won't.
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

 . . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:30:08 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Trav Cmbt Sys

Lee Neal wrote:
> 
>  O.K what was Azhanti High lightning.?
> Now my brain in overtime and keep thinking of Snapshot.
> So which was which


Both Snapshot and AHL are both personal combat systems for CT.  I use
Snapshot in my current game.  It fits in beautifully with T4.

All Snapshot does is assign "action points" to every action a PC can
take.  If you want to move, it's 1 AP per square (squares are 1.5 meter
grid).  If you want to fire your weapon, it's 4 AP's to fire a
revolver--more AP's are required if you want to fire an automatic
weapon.

Using Snapshot, it really cuts down on the argument of "why can't I do
that in a round?"  and "I can surely do all of this before the bad guy
does that".

I introduced it to my group a few months ago, and they love it.

AHL, on the other hand, is a similar tactical system, although it takes
a more abstract stance.  You have APs for actions, but everybody is
given the same number of AP's (in Snapshot, AP total is variable,
dependent on your Dex and End).

AHL is a good system--it's just a more abstract system than Snapshot.

In my view, CT had four basic ground combat systems.  If you wanted your
normal, free-style type of play that most RPG's have (like what T4 has
now), you used the one from the core rule book.

You could get more detailed by adding a tactical element to this same
system, and that's what Snapshot accomplished.

Then, there was large scale combat, which Striker covered.  But, Striker
was made for combat outdoors.  Because of scale, buildings are rarely
drawn on the map as individual buildings--rather one large building will
represent several buildings or a warehouse.

There was a need to do house to house combat in Traveller, because
Snapshot would be too tedious when dealing with the number of troops
that Striker uses.

To fill this need, you have AHL--a more abstract personal combat system
allowing you to do individual combat with a large number of people.

AHL is good in any indoor setting--even mutinies aboard large naval
vessels where there are several characters on both sides or boarding
actions.

In sum, CT had:

Free-Style and Snapshot for regular ground combat (depending on how
detailed you wanted to get).

Azhanti High Lightning for personal combat with several characters (when
running Free-Style or Snapshot would take too long for the number of
people involved).

Striker for large scale tactical combat focussing on the platoon level.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:23:09 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: TNE Items For Sale

At 09:54 AM 10/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>TNE Traveller Items For Sale
>-----------------------------
>
>I took inventory at my local game store last week.  They just got in a
>few TNE supplements.  Most of these are brand new, and a couple are
>used.  In most cases, there is only one copy of each item.
>
>Like many other GM's on this list, I find the TNE supplements helpful in
>my 1100's campaign.  If I was ref-ing a M0 game, I'd probably find them
>even more useful since the backgrounds are so similar.
>
>If you are interested, e-mail me in private.  I'll send you a list of
>what they have with a short description of what's included in each book
>(for those who inquired privately recently, the Aliens of the Rim Vol. 1
>book is already sold).
>  
>I will pick these items up for anybody who wants them for the price of
>the book, tax, and postage.
>
>Kenneth.
>
	I'm interested in that Regency Sourcebook -- still.

	Tell me what to do?


Tim Connors

All probabilities are 50% -- either a thing will happen or it won't.
	This is especially true when dealing with women.

 . . . The likelihoods, however, are 90% against you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:39:01 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: planetary defenses

TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> wrote:

> Well... I got a thundering lack of response of to my PE/BR query.  maybe BR 
> i anathema to u T4'ers.

Actually, it's more like some of us that are interested are awfully busy. :)
Somewhere, I've got a small tech-12 installation that I put together for a
scenario; it's around here somewhere....  I'll find it soon.

Meanwhile, you were saying

>        My next thought was a ship sized meson station.  I'd see this as being
> valuable to my space defense, but is this practical?  or just stick w/ deep
> meson sites?  Stations would probably be cheaper than the colossal deep site
> mounts. But would they be easily destroyed?  Is there any advantage to a space
> based station w/ a meson gun?  or just stick to SDBs and planetary deep mounts
> and missles? ditch the whole battle station idea?  

Let's look at that idea.  Battle stations take the rider idea one step 
further -- by getting rid of maneuver drives, you have more room for 
armor and weapons (and in fact, you don't need to worry about how much
armor you're hauling around).  Of course, you can't evade either, and
the enemy can maneuver to avoid you, among other problems.  

I'd think you'd be better off with deep-site meson guns, if you can make
them.  There's less support equipment (and hence less cost), you get all
sorts of advantageous DiffMods against detection, and Battle Rider armor
value (AV) is probably 30 or higher.  Part of the reason I made the TL12
facility was to test deep-site viability out.

Of course, who said all your deep-sites have to be located on the planet?
If you've got a convenient moon or two, you can put some there as well.
Then there's a whole world of possibilities involving other sorts of 
surface-based planetary defense systems....

What you really should do is set up some scenarios using your ideas and
game them out.  (Oh, and let us know what you do and how it goes!)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:51:57 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")

In a message dated 97-10-31 06:29:57 EST, worj@topgun.cinecom.com writes:

<< Anyone know what it's worth, and anyone interested in buying same? >>


In a similar vein...I have a copy of Snapshot, still sealed in shrink-wrap (w/
the little black-and-red "approved for use with Traveller" sticker still on
the wrap.)  Is this worth anything, or have I just been cheating myself of
it's use for 7 years?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:08:39 -0500 (EST)
From: GAHUNTER <Gahunter@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Transponders.

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, J. wrote:

> >And the registration ID is kinda cool but with trillions of citizens it
> >would be difficult to process that kind of data to be reliable - it would
> >make creating your own ID very easy... 
> ID are only required for those citizens who leave their homeworld, like
> a passport if you don't want to travel you don't need one. I'm not suggesting
> that a huge database be kept of every citizen. There isn't a database
> holding everyone with a valid passport on earth. My idea of Imperial Passports
> is a document similar to our current passports, getting hold of one is 
> difficult it general involves applying to your subsector capital and waiting.
> Of course you can always join the military/merchants as a quick way to get
> one,
> serve four years and leave, this would explain why so many PC's are
> ex-military
> or ex-merchant.

Hmmm, I guess this is where we differ - I look at the Imperium as one big
Empire - therefore as long as you are within its borders you are free to
come and go as you choose... Its when you leave you need to have papers -
more or less to prove that you are actually citizens of the imperium - but
for the most part i would wager nearly 10-25% of the population in my
universe moves around from world to world - that would be an extremely
high overhead to maintain track of... 
 
Guy Hunter
(gahunter@cris.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:15:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

yeah, but the problem is that the corporate employee handbook reads
disturbingly like "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" !

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Famille Spofulam's corporate beverage is Jolt^3(tm): "Half the
> flavour and eight times the caffeine!"
> 
> :)
> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:46:10 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2039

>So....what do people think? [about starship format]

For sensors, it might be nice to give each sensor a seperate line and list
it's "typical" range in kilometers (so people don't have to look up things
in the range table)

For signatures, it is definitely worth specifiying which signature is which - 
something like A:+0.5 PIR:+1.0(+0.0 at minimum power) PVIS:-0.5

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:48:23 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

Rob Prior wrote:

> There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published in
> Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm certain
> someone out there can briefly recapitulate.

 Does anyone have a copy of this available?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:57:52 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

At 03:31 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>
>>At 02:44 PM 10/29/97 -0500, Marc wrote:
>>
>>>Poul Anderson's stuff
>>
>>At last year's BayCon, I was running a late night Traveller game
>>(Twilight's Peak) when Poul Anderson came in and asked if he could watch.
>
>Oh my god.  He's caught onomasticodroptic guatneyitis.  Soon it will
>progress to the next stage -- killing off famous science-fiction authors in
>At Close Quarters and bragging about how they begged him to do it.

Remain calm, I'm not going any farther.  I just thought it was neat that I
had a chance to run Traveller for one of the authors who helped inspire the
game.

Poul's a nice guy, deaf as a post though...
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:54:23 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium tech level changes?

At 04:20 PM 10/31/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I know I've seen this before, but damned if I can find it again. Can anyone
>tell me in what years the 3rd Imperium "officially" progressed through each
>tech level (12->15). Also, what criteria determines when the Imperium has
>hit a certain tech level. Is it when x% of the planets are at that level,
>when the Emperor feels like proclaiming that they are, or something else?

From the MT Referee's Companion, pg 34:

- -150  TL12
300   TL13
700   TL14
1000  TL15

IMHO, the tech level of the Imperium changes when enough Industrial worlds
exist at the new TL to support a wholescale upgrade of the Imperial
Military to the new standard.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:42:22 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Choice is a Benefit

John Kovalic wrote:

> I've played all versions, and enjoyed all versions. I've been pissed off by
> limitations and mistakes in all versions. I'm currently playing
> GURPS:Traveller (my own conversions) because of the poor quality of the
> early IG releases, but I am looking forward to T4.1. Hell, IG cashed my
> check a while ago for it. :-)

T4 is my system of choice, but I use all editions of Traveller (and I
mean all--CT, MT, TNE, T4) in my game as well as some outside stuff
(T2300, GURPS, some other sci-fi RPG games).

Basically, I use T4 as my base rules system, but I pick and choose
equipment, adventures, background, rules from all of these other sources
to enhance my T4 game.

I really didn't care for TNE--mainly because it didn't "feel" like
Traveller, but I own just about all of the TNE supplements and they are
not going to waste.

It's really not that hard to pick something from a previous edition of
Traveller and convert it to your system of choice.  For me, it is easy
to convert from TNE to T4 because T4 is a less detailed, simpler
system.  It would be much more work to go the other way.

But, in general, I like having all of these diverse products to choose
from.  You don't have to like them all--but that's the beauty of it. 
You can pick and choose what you like best and use it in your campaign.

Recently, I needed to roll up weather for the PC's trip through a
forest.  I searched all of my Trav stuff for some rules, and I found
those rules in TNE's World Tamer's Handbook.

It was no problem at all to roll up weather for my T4 game using these
TNE rules.

If I had shunned TNE because I didn't like the system, I would have had
to wing it--because I couldn't find any other weather rules (based on a
planet's UWP) anywhere else in all the other supplements and magazines I
have.

In sum, TNE is not my system of choice, but the supplements are still
worth having to enhance my game.  I'm sure the same would be true if I
used any of the other editions as my base system.  I would just convert
the other way.

To me, having the choice is a benefit.  Take starship combat for
example.  With Traveller, unlike any other RPG I know of, I have a good
many options.  I can pick the system that best fits my playing style.

There's the starship combat system from basic CT.  You can play with
High Guard if you want to.  And, CT even has Mayday.

Then, you can use the system in MT, if you want another choice.

Not enough?  OK, how about the system in basic TNE, or the improved
version of this in BL?  Want to do fleet battles?  How about BR?

Now, there's a new system in T4.  I'm not sure what T4.1 will have in
it, but Marc has stated that the basic starship combat system in T4.1
will be updated.

And then, there's this new T4 space combat system coming out based on
Silent Death.

Still not enough choices?  Look at the RPSCS designed by TML members.

You may not like all of these systems, but the point is that you've got
a lot of choice here.  Whatever you like, you can focus on it. 
Eventhough the Traveller editions are vastly different, the basics
always stay the same.  Starships always have G ratings.  Jump drives
always range from 1-6.

Given this base line, you can focus on one system--your system of
choice--and base your entire game on it, using all of these other
supplements if you want them.

AD&D is an incredibly complicated rules system--if you want it to
be--and there is a multitude of supplements out for the game.  You could
never master all of the rules that are available for that game, and you
are afforded the luxury of customizing your game, using the many
official rules, to your own tastes.

I see Traveller, with it's four editions the same way.  For me, TNE (or
CT/MT products, for that matter) are not to be shunned because the game
system is so drastically different from T4.  There is enough
similarities between all the Trav editions to make conversion easy and
worthwhile.

For me, everything that is not T4, from both GDW and licenees, is just
another supplement for my T4 game.

If I was playing TNE, I'd look at T4 and GURPS stuff as supplements for
that game.

I think the choice is good.  Pick what you want.  Don't use what you
don't like.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:48:31 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TNE bashing (long)

At 09:49 PM 10/30/97 EST, you wrote:

I wrote:
>> TNE was like the New Coke of RPGs.  Take an
>>established winner and screw with it.  T4 is Coke Classic.

>    The "established winner" was dying.  It needed new blood and bad.  If t4
>is Coke Classic, it wouldn't have the crap put out it does now.  We wouldn't
>be hearing grand tales of an imaginary T4.1.  Look at CT again and u'll see
>how immature the rules system is.  That's why T4 isn't just a rehash.  CT is
>obviously over two decades old.  MT is obviously one.  TRAVELLER needs new
>blood and it's not gonna get it the way things are.  It doesn't matter to me. 

Actually, MT was doing fairly well, as I recall.  There was a push to get
all of GDW's systems using one rules set, and a need to resolve the
moribund Rebellion setting.

>    TNE, IMO, is much better than CT and MT.  MT was all right, but the design
>and combat sequences are much better in Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider than
>anything t4 has put out.  Combat was not as complicated as it seemed.  Go
>through 3 combats and it flows smooth if u've got the intellect of a chia pet.

Since I played in a TNE campaign for the better part of 2.5 years, you need
not sing TNE's praises to me.  I still use BL in my Traveller/CORPS campaign.

Through all of that, MT remains my personal favorite set of rules.  Why.
Personal preference.  Simple as that.

>    The storyline in CT is so damned bland and boring.  The stable Imperium
>is boring.  It doesn't attract new gamers otherwise in MMT we'd being seeing
>M:1100.    MT had an interesting story and an interesting ending too. : )

The setting is.  How exciting that setting is depends on the Referee and
the players.  Back in the early 80s I ran a campaign that had the
characters working as couriers, lots of intrigue and danger, very exciting
game.  The setting?  Core Subsector.  In the very heart of the stable
Imperium.

>All M:0 is is TNE w/o the Collapse.  U have Wilds, w/ the expansion back
>into once civilized space. Pirates et all.  Gurps Traveller should take
the >us to alternates.  Better to divorce itself from the boooooring
setting >completely.

There are differences between the TNE setting and the T4 setting.  In the
RC, mankind has been nearly destroyed, trillions died in a span of short
decades, and coldly intelligent starships lurk among the shattered remnants
of past glory.

In Milieu:0, A new dawn has come, and a vigorous young empire is going
where few have tread for a thousand years, bringing unity and hope (and low
cost trade goods!)  There are mysteries and enigmas, and fortunes to be won!

I much prefer scouting an Earth-like planet and trying to figure out why no
one lives there than rooting around a planetary graveyard for cast-off bits
of high technology.

>Take us to the Zhodani or center on the Solomani and space to rimward.

Write it.  That simple.  Contact the editor of JTAS, or Freelance
traveller, or make a pitch to IG or BITS.  Or just do the work and design
your own campaign setting.
  
>    Interesting how "Coke Classic" has only 6 siders and thruster plates in
>common w/ it's forebears.   FF&S is far superior to ANYTHING comparable in
>CT and MT. FFS2 is just a reworking of FFS for T4.  The TNE aspects are
>there cause it's a TNE product.  The design sequences in MT?  LOL... i
don't >even need to go there, do i? CT's stuff is obviously novice.  U can
see how >the sophistication grows w/ the later and later works.  Kind of
like >Oriental Adventures was to AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed.

T4 has the same characteristics, careers, and feel as CT.  As a user of
both FFS, FFS2, and the MT design sequences, let me say that I found them
all to be useful for the game they were designed for.  Of course FFS2 is a
follow-on to the original!  That was a highly successful product and a
great idea, you expected IG to drop an established winner?

I find it interesting that with all your complaining about TNE-bashing, you
feel free to insult those who still play CT or MT.

>    Let's talk about presentation.  T4's stinks.  That foss art.  To say
>nothing of the typesetting.  Every one of TNEs books beats the pants off
>anything IG has published. 

While Foss's art is not my favorite, I will admit that it has grown on me.
Aside for IG's insistence on putting the tables at the back, what specific
complaints do you have with the layout?
              
>U may not like the "comic bookish" interior art, but it's better than t4s.
>TNE is remiscent of AD&Ds products that sold so well.  You have the
headers >w/illustrations and a good feel for the game even if u don't like
the rules >or setting.  T4s stuff (the Hardback and Softback, starships,
First Survey, >M:0.) They all look like they came off of an old typewriter.
 Pocket Empires
>looks ok, but on presentation, T4 can't touched TNE yet.

William Keith's stuff is "comic bookish"???  Or are you referring to Donna
Barr's work, which includes many of the early drawings of Vargr?

I note you chose two of the acknowledged worst products for your examples..
what did you think of Emperor's Arsenal, or Psionics Institutes?

>      I've tried to keep quiet and i did through the little snide comments
>and the bash at the authors of TNE and their hard sci fi knowledge.  I get
>fed up w/ all of the Old Farts and others who can't seem to get enough out
>of kicking a dead dog.  A snide comment here and derogatory statement there.

I am, at best, a Middle-Aged Fart, thank you very much!

Once again.  I am entitled to express my opinion.  I like all forms of
Traveller, and have played them all.  I never had the chance to run TNE.
TNE remains in 4th place in my opinion.  This opinion will be reflected in
my commentary.

>I would think that Traveller is Traveller and u'd be more supportive.
Very >little that happens in one of your Imperiums is ever gonna be felt in
>anothers anyways.  Who cares bout whether *your* Imperium goes into
>Rebellion, Collapse, Emperor Dulinor or Lucan or Strephon or Cleon.
Pretty >much only you and *maybe* your players.  I never dogged CT or MT.
Without >em there'd have been no TNE.  

Go back and read what you've written.  You've done little but belittle CT
and MT throughout this message.  You've also taken the tact of directly
insulting people because of their opinions.  This does little to make me
feel like engaging in a frank discussion of the various merits of the
different rules with you.

>       I put up through all the whining and ranting on the GDW Beta and here
>too w/o comment. I'm not interested in a flame war, but enough is enough.

"Whining and ranting"?  On GDW-Beta???  That has to be one of the politest
lists I've ever seen!

>       This is just letting some well built up steam blow.  Give TNE a
>break. Your dislike of it is well known.  It's not like u have to moan about
>san*klaas hats anymore.  

When somebody brings them up, I will continue to be frank about my opinion
on AotR.

>        IMO, T4 should do what it was said to be about.  Multiple milieu.
>M:0 is not gonna hold up the rules set f/e.  Let's see what's next,
whatever >it is.  Pump out a Milieu book a year, not one every 2 or 3.
It'll sell >more.

*Splut*  One a year?!  You want a complete new setting, along with the
support products, on a yearly basis, and you also of course want it errata
free and properly typeset, etc..  Why don't you let us finish up the M:0
line first?  Remember what happened to TSR when they went setting happy..
Al-Qadim, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Known World, etc..  They went
broke trying to support them all in the face of massive fan indifference.
The fans stuck to one main setting (Forgotten Realms) that had received
constant and detailed support.

>TSR proved that every time a setting gets to a sequential product, sales
>drop.

This explains the Forgotten Realms setting, over *200* products, books,
etc. in print and more coming.

>make a new setting, big sales.  Popular ones can endure more products. 

Spelljammer.  Despite a massive ad campaign, tons of modules, aggressive
support in Dragon, the line died a slow, horrible death.  That, along with
a few other fiascoes, sank TSR.  Do you honestly think IG can survive *one*
disaster like that?

>That's what Traveller always misses.  One Milieu will sink T4, just like
one >milieu sank all the others (except TNE which was branching out.  It
got sunk >by those damned card games and the shifting market)  Hey i got
it!  A pocket >empires card game!  nah... it'd probably have foss art and a
bunch of >typos...  

CT survived nicely for ten years on a single setting before GDW decided to
change things.  MT lasted about six, before once again GDW pulled the line
in favor of TNE.  TNE lasted until GDW folded.

There was some discussion about a ship combat card game a while back, but
since that wave seems to have crested, I don't think it will happen. 

>Happy Travelling, regardless of Milieu or Era 

and too you, also.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2040
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2041



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperium tech level changes?
Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")
Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments) I
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace	 dementia ...)
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: ID4
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: FF&S2 Ratings..
Re: TNE Items For Sale
Geek credentials (was: Thermodynamics ...)
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2040
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:29:34 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium tech level changes?

Douglas Berry wrote:
> From the MT Referee's Companion, pg 34:
> 
> - -150  TL12
> 300   TL13
> 700   TL14
> 1000  TL15
> 
> IMHO, the tech level of the Imperium changes when enough Industrial worlds
> exist at the new TL to support a wholescale upgrade of the Imperial
> Military to the new standard.

But the real fun is that the TL 12 suppliers are probably not the same
bunch
as the TL 13 suppliers... imagine having to tell your boss you lost a
contract for half a million grav tanks. Ouch.

I'd imagine that there are only a handful of really high-tech worlds in
the Imperium vying for pan-Imperial military equipment contracts. The
competition would probably get pretty heated when you consider that you
could probably put the entirety of modern-day Earth on to a couple of
really fat Naval contracts. There's an adventure in there somewhere...

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:46:22 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium for sale (by "Conflict Game Company")

DustyLV769 wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-10-31 06:29:57 EST, worj@topgun.cinecom.com writes:
> 
> << Anyone know what it's worth, and anyone interested in buying same? >>
> 
> In a similar vein...I have a copy of Snapshot, still sealed in shrink-wrap (w/
> the little black-and-red "approved for use with Traveller" sticker still on
> the wrap.)  Is this worth anything, or have I just been cheating myself of
> it's use for 7 years?
> 
> Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

I still have the little green book and the scoutship deckplans for that
game, but nothing else.  :)
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:50:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements

Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:41:00 -0800, "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

>Marketing research done during the time of the (first) Imperial Grand
>Survey indicates the following (some intelligence was gathered by Bill
>Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>):
>
>Vilani:  Classic Coke, sometimes called Traditional Coke
>
>Imperial Solomani: Imperial Coke (created in year 0)
>
>Various Kingdoms & Pocket Empires:  Royal Crown (RC)
>
>Solomani in the Solomani Sphere:  Pepsi and Mountain Dew

I would guess that "Classic Coke" is a Solomani tradition
and the Vilani would (if they just didn't reject it
all together) use whatever happened to be the current
when they took it up and then never changes it
("Traditional New Coke"?).

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:44:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments) I

Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:12:43 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>The patrols in question exist to spot an invaision fleet and
>>immediately jump back to the main fleet with the news.  They
>>don't have to be armed enough to be able to stop a pirate,
>>be close enough to be able arrive in time to stop a pirate,
>>or even necessarily be able to reliably spot single ships.
>>Furthermore, the would exist only within some distance
>>of the frontier.

>  That's a remarkably limited picket design - it has one very
>specific peacetime and no wartime function.

NO, it has one very important peacetime and wartime function.
giving you intel on enemy fleet movements.  (Probably the
most important picket funciton).  In any case, the message
grew out of the claim that the patrols I was agreeing to
could also be used to stop piracy.  If you think they
wouldn't exist, then they wouldn't be there to stop
piracy.  If you think there would be other types of
patrols, that is _your_ take on the issue.

> Why don't pirates
>just hunt these underarmed things for parts?

Becuse they would be sitting just outside the jump limit and
would just jump away.


_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:56:22 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

This subject is really getting out of hand.

I suppose I should exercise some judgement and step away -- but Leonard
Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>>>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
>
>>>[snip]
>
>>>        I mean, the recoil is just _way_ too high for a crotch-mounted
>>>weapon.  Any human with exterior genitalia would be completely
>
>I just had a flashback to the Babylon 5 episode where Londo was
>cheating at cards. I wonder if the Centauri have derringers built to be
>handled by that appendage? :-)

A pocket rocket, yes?

Hm, well, um, I imagine external genitalia would need to be fairly
prehensile to handle anything in the range of a derringer.  Even doing away
with a trigger guard, a pretty slender "digit" would be called for -- so
the Centauri would, presumably, be adherents of the "length is more
important than width" school of thought.

What I've been finding particularly ironic about this thread is that I
don't own so much as a non-fusion-powered model, and haven't even packed
since I was an insecure 13 year old.  Science fiction at its finest on the
TML!


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:01:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension (was Re: Jumpspace	 dementia ...)

Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:46:20 +0000, Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension
(was Re: Jumpspace	 dementia ...)

>>I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
>>low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
>>why a jump drive has it's own power supply).

>The flaw with this is (as has been noted on TML earler) that if this is the
>case why isn't there ANY inprovement on the fuel efficiency of J-drives as
>the TL rises? The fuel consumtion of J-drives is the most important
>limiting factor when designing warships and merchants so I'd say some
>serious research money must have been spent here.

Who can say?  Since we don't know what technologies are needed
we can't say how fundamental the blockages to advancement are.
It may be that the difficulty in getting that much power
without turning the ship into an H bomb is enourmous enough
that the advancement in the TL's in question is not enough
to warrent a change in game terms.

>My take is that the hydrogen is some kind of mass dumped into jumpspace in
>order to enter the ship. If you need a handwave for why it has to be
>hydrogen lets say that matter containing neutrons as well as protons causes
>severe disturbances for the jumpfield.

Yeah, to me that is a lot bigger handwave than the low efficiency
reactor.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:14:30 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

The problem with CSC is that it's for the MAC.  sigh..
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 20:00 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

In-Reply-To: <3458240E.450A@pacbell.net>

Glenn,

> I agree with Derek's concept of abbreviations after the knight's name. 
> Knights could also have different ranks, like knights of the United
> Kingdom:  Knight, Knight Commander, I've forgotten the others.  Thus
>  
> Sir Bruce Ganiishiri Dasgupta, K.C.O.A.

British ranks vary between orders. The Order of the British Empire has:

Members (MBE)
Officer (OBE)
Commander (CBE)
Knight Commander (KBE)
Knight Grand Cross (GBE)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 20:01 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: ID4

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971030125312.22852C-100000@alpha2.bton.ac.uk>

Ewan,

> >ID4 was actually a typo, they let the shift key up on the last one by
> >accident.
> >
> >Scott
>  
> There is a realy cool film, produced by Channel 4 IIRC, that is about

Partly funded by, I think.

> undercover police infiltration of football holigan gangs, which ends with
> one policeman "going native". This is the original ID ... so ID4 must

I thought of that, but how many people in Hollywood will have heard of it?

> translate to Indipendence Day 4th July, but then wouldn't that be ID47 ?
> or even ID74 ?  ;-) (dependent on how you view the dateing system).

Or ID4J. Except, of course, that the full title is just "Independence Day," 
with no mention of the date.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 20:01 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

In-Reply-To: <0057a0241051ea7HOST@simm.net>

Pat,

> In ascending order of prestige.
> 1. Knight
> 2. Knight Bachelor
> 3. Knight Commander
> 4. Knight Grand Commander
> 5. Knight Grand Cross.
>  
> So, in my universe 
> Brig. Lord Sir Sri Arunda, K.C.M.G., I.C, O.M.S.M., I.M. (ret) 
> would translate into.
> Brigadier - Lord (honorary title) Sir (knight hood prefix) NAME, 
> Knight Commander of the Order St. Michael & St. George (junior order of
> chivalry) 
> IC = Imperial Cross (decoration of highest rank) 
> O.M.S.M = Order of Merit of the Spinward Marches (decoration of lower
> rank), 
> and IM = Imperial Marines retired.

I remember a cute exchange in _Yes, Minister_ (or maybe _Yes, Prime 
Minister_) about what some of these letter stood for:

CMG = Call Me God
KCMG = Kindly Call Me God
GCMG = God Calls Me God

______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:15:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Ratings..

The Commander's BureauX Agents report that a one
Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
has transmitted the following:

>I'm putting the final touches on my FF&S starship design worksheet...it
>should be  up on my web site this weekend. I'll notify this list to it's
>location and such when it's available.

Excellent.  Can't wait to see that.

>I'm finishing the USP page - and I want to get people's opinions on the
>format. FF&S has it's own format, kindof freeform, that I'm not too found
>of. I like the QSDS/SSDS format. However, the QSDS/SSDS format doesn't
>allow for all the information that FF&S contains. So I sort of merged them
>together...here's what I came up with (by the way, this is directly from
>the spreadsheet):

<!--Hummm....whirrrr....KA-ZOTZ!--Noisy Cricket or Sayat Plasma gun going 
off.
(Most Excellent Q/SSDS+FF&S2 Fusion USP Page removed for sake of bandwidth)
 -->

>So....what do people think?

This is excellent work, where were you 3 days ago when I was finishing up my 
fighter, I mean this would be great for THU....

>I think something like this would be useful to define entries for THUDDD 7,
>for people using FF&S2.

You took the words outa my mouth! :-)

>Please let me know.

I think I just did. :-)
But Again, I'll say this is wonderful work.

 ---------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:10:04 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TNE Items For Sale

Tim Connors wrote:

>         I'm interested in that Regency Sourcebook -- still.
> 
>         Tell me what to do?

Are you still having problems getting to me in private?  I'm getting
e-mails from other people--just checking.

Unfortunately, the Regency Sourcebook has been spoken for by somebody
else.  As a matter of fact, most of the TNE items on the list are spoken
for--I'm going to walk in there and buy out the whole  shelf, just for
TML people!

The only thing left not spoken for is a new copy of Star Vikings,
Invasion for T2300, and the two TNE gamescreens they have.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Geek credentials (was: Thermodynamics ...)

> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:55:37 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> And my mind must be going, as I can never remember more than the first
> 5 or 6 digits of "c".

The key here is normalization...define your units so c = 1.  Makes
everything much more convenient.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:28:19 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

You might want to clarify each major post of CSC to indicate that it is a Mac only 
application.  That way people who are not Mac-users don't waste time and get high hopes 
for using the application.

I am sure it is a good app, but for better or worse, PC's are more common than Macs and I 
am sure that equates to this list as well.

Kevin

On 31 Oct 97 at 13:41, Rob Prior wrote:

From:           	Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To:             	tne-rces@tower.clark.net
Copies to:      	traveller@MPGN.COM, hiwg@fwe.com
Subject:        	CSC Website Fixed
Date sent:      	31 Oct 1997 13:41:01 GMT
Organization:   	North York Board of Education
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> I've fixed the link in the CSC website.  (Thanks to Anders for pointing
> out the problem.)  You should now be able to get the latest version at:
> 
> http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html
> 


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:52:07 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Jory M. Earl wrote:
> 
> The problem with CSC is that it's for the MAC.  sigh..

How is that a "problem"?

Sheesh. :)

Limitation? Maybe.

Poor Rob isn't making any money on this, so I think it's his perogative
to use the tools to create it that he is familiar with, or enjoys using. 

Want a peecee version? Send him money. Be a sponsor.

(This plug totally unsolicited, right Rob? wink wink nudge nudge) :D

<shameless mode ON>

Do you have Excel v.5? Then you might be interested in my Vehicle Design
spreadsheet. It works on PC.

<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/traveller.html>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1997 21:43:36 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: CSC Website Fixed

>You might want to clarify each major post of CSC to indicate that it is a Mac
only 
>application. 

I used to, then I noticed that PC programmers never specified their platform
when posting, so I decided not to either.  It is clearly specified on the
software page.

A minor quibble, but "sauce for the goose..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:06:25 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> Jory M. Earl wrote:
> >
> > The problem with CSC is that it's for the MAC.  sigh..
> 
> How is that a "problem"?
> 
> Sheesh. :)
> 
> Limitation? Maybe.
> 
> Poor Rob isn't making any money on this, so I think it's his perogative
> to use the tools to create it that he is familiar with, or enjoys using.
> 
> Want a peecee version? Send him money. Be a sponsor.
> 
> (This plug totally unsolicited, right Rob? wink wink nudge nudge) :D
> 
> <shameless mode ON>
> 
> Do you have Excel v.5? Then you might be interested in my Vehicle Design
> spreadsheet. It works on PC.
> 
> <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/traveller.html>

I'm not sure what version of Excel I have, it's the one with MS Office
97.  I don't have a clue how to use it though.  :)

Yes, it being only for the MAC was my problem.  So many times I have
seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.  Since I'm
not rich, don't expect me to ever own a Mac.  That and the fact of
having to learn a whole new computer system.  I know DOS and Win95
better then Microsoft's Support people (I have solved problems they
couldn't many times on my system).

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:24:15 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory M. Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed


>The problem with CSC is that it's for the MAC.  sigh..
>-- 
>                              The J-Man
>                             GOC Systems
>                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:22:58 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory M. Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed


>The problem with CSC is that it's for the MAC.  sigh..
>--
>                              The J-Man
>                             GOC Systems
>                           j-man@iname.com

Ok! Everyone imprisoned by the Evil Empire CHANT IN UNISION!

We want CSC!
We want CSC!
We want CSC!

next chorus

We want Metador!
We wnat Metador!
We want Metador!

Heck, it won't wprk but maybe it let's you know our feelings. Bring 'em out
in shareware, they'll sell! Not to mention you'll know who's using it
without paying by the posts to the List! Then you can get even by giving
Leroy thier email adress! ;>

Wishfully
Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:37:02 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

At 15:28 1997-10-31 -0500, you wrote:
>You might want to clarify each major post of CSC to indicate that it is a
Mac only=20
>application.  That way people who are not Mac-users don't waste time and
get high hopes=20
>for using the application.
>
>I am sure it is a good app, but for better or worse, PC's are more common
than Macs and I=20
>am sure that equates to this list as well.

What language are the applications written in?

Perhaps someone could convert them to PC?

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:36:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcus Teter <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2040

> 
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:48:01 -0800
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> Subject: Re: planetary defenses
> 
> >        A full blown battle station would be just like a ship, i assume.
> >Multiple weapons of multiple types.  Screens defenses.  All w/ very minimal
> >drives to maintain orbit. Would  full manuever drives be necessary?
> 
> You probably do need maneuver drives of some sort (at least a tenth of a G),
> since what limits laser range (to first order) is the ability of the target
> to evade in the light-travel time of the shot; if you can't evade, 
> attackers can hit you with lasers from well outside the range you can hit
> them. (In BL/BR terms, a station without maneuver drives wouldn't get the
> - -1 DM/3 hexes - you can easily see how it would get hammered to death by
> enemies at 40 hexes or so.)
> 
> In addition, without some maneuver capability to change your orbit by a 
> fair amount every day or so you're very vulnerable to swarms of relativisitic
> rocks.
> 
> In general, I think any fixed installation smaller than a big asteroid is
> too vulnerable - ships are the way to go for defence.
> 
> (Although planets may well have large numbers of disposable missile  boxes in
> orbit - to pre-position missiles above the atmosphere. There may also be
> large numbers of orbiting laser turrets (remote controlled) since lasers
> are much more effective if they start above the atmosphere. (There's an
> argument to be made that grav focus doesn't work inside an atmosphere.) 
> There'd be several sensor arrays in orbit too - I guess the picture to go for
> is large numbers of small, independent, low-value orbital isntallations rather
> than a big battle station crying out for Merrick to hit it with a 0.1c KKM.) 
> 
> (Another handy planetary defence trick is mines - you can make a 0.2 m3 
> warhead-only mine nearly undetectable in FFS2; seed the close orbit space witht
> them as a last line of defence. Control them from the ground.)
> 
> Bruce

Bruce brings up some important points.  Essentialy, it makes for an even
more difficult time of it for any attacker (also puts more ammo in the
hands of the virus in TNE).  I would imagine some very important worlds
would have these low-value orbital installations spread out to nearly the
100 diameter limit.  Even the Moon would be an ideal location for
defending the earth.  Many low-value locations could be spread over the
near side surface making for a very annoying strong point, protecting the
earth.  I don't believe that the Moon's defensive nature would be
decicive, but it would definately factor into strategic planning.   

I'd be interested in some of these low-value installations from the
design/cost viewpoint.  Anyone have some initial figures?

TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:01:52 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Rob Prior wrote:
> 

> A minor quibble, but "sauce for the goose..."

Umm, wasn't that what Kirk said to Lt. Saavik, when they were talking
about LURING Khan into that nebula? (Star Trek : Wrath of Khan) :)
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:45:06 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

- -----Original Message-----
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 5:18 AM
Subject: Defense for Traveller:The New Era


>
>
>I found this on the  http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html
>listed under All About The Traveller Mailing Lists.
>
>The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to discussions on all aspects of
>Traveller. It exists as a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange
>ideas and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller System, and its
>universe. This includes discussions on Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller:
>The New Era, Mega Traveller and Classic Traveller. This also includes the
>background.
>
>Hmmm. What was that?
>""This includes discussions on Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller: The New
>Era, Mega Traveller""
>
>TNE Players and Gm's have every right to be on this group.
>Hell I would bet if some posted a Question about the rules
>you would just give his/her the cold shoulder.
>The real sad thing is I seen this happen with AD&D,
>People who played 2nd Ed. would not talk to people who played 1st Ed.
>Just like Warhammer 40k players don't like Doomtrooper players(well in
Tucson)
>Please just give TNE a break on the mailing list..
>
>

Lee,

While I've seen many remarks made about TNE on this list, the majority, by
far, from what I've seen have been in good humor. Not to say that some don't
bash the rules. I think if you posted a serious question someone would have
an answer for you.

My biggest problem with TNE was 2 fold. One I couldn't get the group I was
playing with to take the time to learn the rules (I had the same problem
with GURPS) they generally like rules that are quick to learn from some one
else.  Since each runs his/her own game they would rather spend their bucks
to increase their libraries in their own game, unless the books are cheap
and/or very very good. Unfortunately, the TNE rules appeared to be so
complicated (especially the char gen) that it just turned them off.

The second was the Hivers. In the Reformation Coalition, it seemed to put
the Humans back to client race status, and I'm way too proud to feel
comfortable with that. I'd have rather seen the proud Human race struggle
back on it's own, perhaps even taming Virus or enlisting mutants of it, to
their own ends, (which was how I intended to run a campaign, but it never
materialized).

In short, I have the books but didn't care for the game, just as I don't
care for all of the Cnnon assumptions in ANY of the T-rules. It's just that
T4 seems to be more appealing to my players.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2041
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 1 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2042



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FF&S2 Ratings...
Re: FF&S2 Ratings
Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era
Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension
TL
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)
Re: Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: New CSC Features
Trav Items For Sale
Re: Recoil in shame and horror 
Assorted
Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
RE: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:56:48 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Ratings...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 1:17 PM
Subject: FF&S2 Ratings...


>I'm putting the final touches on my FF&S starship design worksheet...it
>should be  up on my web site this weekend. I'll notify this list to it's
>location and such when it's available.
>
>I'm finishing the USP page - and I want to get people's opinions on the
>format. FF&S has it's own format, kindof freeform, that I'm not too found
>of. I like the QSDS/SSDS format. However, the QSDS/SSDS format doesn't
>allow for all the information that FF&S contains. So I sort of merged them
>together...here's what I came up with (by the way, this is directly from
>the spreadsheet):
>
<Snipage of Nice Stuff>

Andrew,
Can't wait to see ! I started a spread for FFS2 but work side tracked me.
Looks like I won't have to finish it now. Yours looks great.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:06:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Ratings

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:32 -0600
> From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
> 
> I'm finishing the USP page - and I want to get people's opinions on the
> format. FF&S has its own format, kindof freeform, that I'm not too fond
> of. I like the QSDS/SSDS format. However, the QSDS/SSDS format doesn't
> allow for all the information that FF&S contains. So I sort of merged them
> together...here's what I came up with (by the way, this is directly from
> the spreadsheet):

[example snipped]

> So....what do people think? 
> 
> I think something like this would be useful to define entries for THUDDD 7,
> for people using FF&S2.

I like it a great deal.  It's close enough to the current standard format
that it's easy to scan, while also providing a lot more detail.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 11:14:22 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

At 10:06 AM 31/10/97 +0000, Anders wrote:

>
>OK, I'll stop bashing TNE except when necessary ;)
>Actually I find the TNE personal combat rules the best version of all
>Traveller versions except the superb one in Azhanti High lightning.
>
>Do I get my cookie now?
>

Nahh.... you get a big sloppy kiss :)

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:11:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics and the nth dimension

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:08:34 -0600
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> 
> > >I prefer idea that the jump drive reactor is just a very
> > >low efficiency/high output reaction (which also explains
> > >why a jump drive has it's own power supply).
> > 
> > I believe that this was the /original/ canon approach.  Over time,
> > however, someone (?) began to wonder exactly what type of fusion plant
> > could burn so much liquid hydrogen in so little time.  The idea of the
> > liquid hydrogen jump bubble came from that.  I /believe/ this
> > definition is now canon, although I may be wrong.
> 
> Actually, no, it's not canon, since the jump ballast theory has never
> been published in Traveller materials, afaik.

If I'm remembering correctly, the jump drive explanation in FFS2
"canonizes" *both* the jump-ballast *and* the lanthanum-grid models -- the
latter stabilizes the bubble formed by the former. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:26:44 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: TL

Tech level is a quick guide to the overall TL of the world, in my opinion.
The referee can then fiddle with the Tech levels as he/she pleases. What I
do when I'm detailing a world is this (inspired by World Builders'
handbook, which I don't have):

TL is 'General' TL, ie the level of technology encountered in everyday life
in the main populaton centres.
This includes communications, entertainment, computers, electronics and
most of the day-to-day Tech used by the populace.
I then take 2D and roll for each of the following sub-techs:

Transport
Medical
Personal Weaponry
Heavy/Military Weaponry
Manufacturing

2-3 is 2 TL below 'general'
4-5 is 1 TL below
6-9 is as general
10-11 is +1 above 'general'
12 is 2 above.

This can throw up worlds with TL7 'general', Tl 5 medical tech and TL 9
Transport.  Reasons for this are generally cultural, and while coming up
with some I begin to get a flavour for the local culture.

It works for me....
MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:33:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

J-man said

> 
> Yes, it being only for the MAC was my problem.  So many times I have
> seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
> for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.

Yeah, like all the CORE stuff that runs on Windows boxes, or Galactic (a
program that's gonna make buy a peecee someday ;-) I know the feeling.

>  Since I'm
> not rich, don't expect me to ever own a Mac.

Uhhh, not to get into a flamewar here or anything, but Mac's have been
price competitive for quite a while now. You can get get a 200 Mhz clone
system with CD, 2 Gb drive, 16 meg of ram and a 33.6 modem for $1199.
There are closeouts on PowerComputing systems too, I saw a PowerBase
system with a 240 Mhz system for $999. Apple's own dual system (200 mhz
PPC, 166 Mhz Cyrix) is going for $2100 right now (all prices coutesy of my
latest Mac Warehouse catalog) I'm beginning to wonder what I could get for
my gently used 7200/75, and more importantly, how to tell 'She who must be
obeyed' that we just _have_ to get a new computer, or our lives will be
woefully incomplete. ;-)

>  That and the fact of
> having to learn a whole new computer system.  I know DOS and Win95
> better then Microsoft's Support people (I have solved problems they
> couldn't many times on my system).

Well, there is that, but there's also my POV. I work all day on a Windows
system supporting ~200 people using Windows systems, so when I go home I
want a computer that _works_. ;-)

And it runs the coolest design utility ever invented: CSC. If Rob's
incarnation of FFS2 is up to the standards he's set with his other
products, Mac's are going to become a gearhead must-have.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:42:32 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: N Essential Books (Traveller-esque)

At 08:54 am 10/31/97 +0000, you wrote:

>NO you're talking about Mr J Pournelle in response to someones post about
>Poul Anderson.

	Boy do I feel stupid now ... no excuse for confusing the two... Perhaps
Famille Spofulam would consent to using me as a weapons testing model to
help me atone for the sin.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:36:07 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: CSC Website Fixed

At 09:43 PM 10/31/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>You might want to clarify each major post of CSC to indicate that it is a
Mac
>only 
>>application. 
>
>I used to, then I noticed that PC programmers never specified their platform
>when posting, so I decided not to either.  It is clearly specified on the
>software page.

After all, once you have seen the note once, you usually remember.  I
certainly know all of the PC apps out there that I cannot run on the Mac,
after one visit. :)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:41:10 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: New CSC Features

At 08:23 am 10/31/97 +0000, you wrote:
>BTW When will Gregs vehicle design system be available?

	Don't know--I tried to find it and it wasn't there. I emailed
him--apparently he's got a high-graphics and a low-graphics one. There was
trouble uploading one version, and the "store" proprietor is waiting to
have both before making them available.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:51:15 +-1100
From: SCott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Trav Items For Sale

Since there is always interest in used Traveller stuff try looking at
http://www.titan-games.com/
they always seem to have stacks available.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:43:42 +-1100
From: SCott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror 

From:  Leonard Erickson[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent:  Friday, 31 October 1997 15:47
To:  traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:  Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

>In mail you write:

>Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He
>advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."


Could be worse. It could be a pump action.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:30:35 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Assorted

Glenn Hoppe responding to Leroy Guatney saith:

>> However, to flame the game, is an issue of spine when you tell Loren
>> what you thought of TNE (No matter how right you are) because after all,
>> it _is_ a game.  We have lost sight of the fact that we derive hours
>> of enjoyment from this game.  This all reminds me of sportsfans.
>
>Do you *really* think that Loren didn't want to hear about what others
>thought of TNE? Do you think he only wants to hear praise, and not
>criticism?

I enjoy hearing praise (who doesn't?). I find _constructive_ criticism 
valuable. I don't much like screaming, vituperitive (sic?) bile. I've gotten
my share of 
each. The days are long past when I and my co-workers were regularly accused 
of plagiarism (and worse) on the TML, but I remember them (we stole the Aslan
from C.J. Cherryh, we stole the Ancients from Fred Pohl, we stole the Centaurs 
from Larry Niven, and so on ad nauseatum...I'm glad those days are gone).

How many people here remember the debate that raged when I first subscribed 
to TML...the one that said that I should not be allowed to subscribe because
(emphasis mine) _I would inhibit free discussion_? I'll admit that the idea was
dispensed with pretty quickly, but there were people who stormed off in a huff, 
and never returned, weren't there?

<irony on>

Why, people would no longer be able to call GDW employees ignorant 
technophobes with impunity! Horrors!

<Irony off>

> HEY LOREN! If you're listening. I really liked the vast majority of TNE
> supplements. What I liked best was the consistancy. 

<material deleted>

Thanks. I like them too. I think I did some of my best work for TNE. 

> It was good that when mistakes were made, you always tried to issue
> errata in a timely manner. The little errata booklet included with FF&S
> was very useful. And the article boosting plasma weapons in Challenge
> was great.

I must confess that I made more than my fair share of mistakes in relation 
to TNE (in other words, I also did some of my worst work for TNE).

> The setting held promise, but was too gritty and milataristic for my
> tastes. 

> I look forward to your GURPS Traveller supps. I may actually never buy
> GURPS, but I anticipate buying your supplements.

I'll do my best.

Loren Wiseman
         GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:07:43 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements

Glenn Goffin wrote:

>Marketing research done during the time of the (first) Imperial Grand
>Survey indicates the following (some intelligence was gathered by Bill
>Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>):
>
>Vilani:  Classic Coke, sometimes called Traditional Coke
>
>Imperial Solomani: Imperial Coke (created in year 0)
>
>Various Kingdoms & Pocket Empires:  Royal Crown (RC)
>
>Solomani in the Solomani Sphere:  Pepsi and Mountain Dew
>
>Zhodani: Barq's Root Beer, because the foam goes straight to the
>brain...
>
>Vargr:  Jolt! Cola: All the sugar and twice the caffeine.  Need we say
>more?
>
>Aslan males:  It doesn't matter; just add some dustspice to it!
>
>Aslan females:  Soft drinks are not cost-effective.  Aslan females drink
>warm or cold water for refreshment, tea for medicinal purposes, mild
>intoxicants on celebratory occasions.
>
>Hivers:  We don't drink them; they're a manipulation, after all.

What's that soft drink with the little globes of neon gelatin floating in
it?  Seems kinda Hiveresque to me.

>Droyne:  Dr. Pepper, for its mystical symbolism (10-2-4)

K'kree:  Wheatgrass juice.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:15:11 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

kiga/msha/kruu:d Leonard Ericksongim

>In mail you write:
>
>>>>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
>
>That's *sick*. I like it!

It was ultimately inspired the Borg chick in _First Contact_, but that's
another story.

>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail
>the protagonist into using it by performing a bit of surgery and
>telling him that *if* he uses it to assassinate the target (some
>"rebel" leaders) they'll arrange for regenerating the missing part.

I won't ask how the protagonist is expected to, ahem, "inflitrate" the
rebel organization and, <cough> <wink> gain an audience with the leaders.

>Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He
>advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."

<VBG>  I wonder if it has a safety catch on it?  I guess gears are starting
to grow in my head or something, but I still like the popup voice activated
laser-dot-sighted plasma cannon version, too.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 20:50:18 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Defense for Traveller:The New Era

On 10/30/97 at 11:53 PM,  Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com> said:

>TNE Players and Gm's have every right to be on this group.

Lee, did I miss something?  Who has said TNE doesn't belong on this list?

>Hell I would bet if some posted a Question about the rules
>you would just give his/her the cold shoulder. 

I don't know who the "you" you are refering to is, but whoever it is
doesn't represent the whole list.  I might not be able to help much with
answering questions, but I'd try to help, and those that *really* can help
like Harold, Dave, Guy, Chris, Bruce, Doug, Craig, and too many more to
mention would too.

>Please just give TNE a break on the mailing list..

Does it *need* a break?

Ok, if what you mean is that a bunch of people will rag on TNE (background
and/or rules) every now and then...so what?  We rag on T4, MT, CT, and each
other now and then, too! ;->  Most of us generally like parts of *all*
versions of Traveller, but we also dislike bits of *all* versions and we
aren't shy about expressing our opinions pro or con. Heck, the high holy
canonists even (mostly) put up with heretics like me that use different
backgrounds, different rules, different almost everythings. ;->

Anyway, if you like TNE, great! If you want to ask questions, make
comments, or generally enlighten the list with your opinions please do.  We
might bark, but we won't bite...promise.

Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 22:13:51 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

On 10/31/97 at 05:33 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>> Yes, it being only for the MAC was my problem. 

>Yeah, like all the CORE stuff that runs on Windows boxes, or Galactic (a
>program that's gonna make buy a peecee someday ;-) I know the feeling.

Hey!  I use OS/2, so stop your whining both of you!  ;-p Nobody writes
ANYTHING for my platform of choice, and if I have it bad, pity the poor
Amiga dinosaurs out there.

>>  Since I'm not rich, don't expect me to ever own a Mac.

>Uhhh, not to get into a flamewar here or anything, but Mac's have been
>price competitive for quite a while now. 

Yeah, Bruce, but the problem is we've already spent 1, 2 or 3 thousand
bucks for an intel based system and plunking down another thousand or two
for a mac just to run CSC or Metator (even if they *are* the best Traveller
programs in existence) is a little excessive.  ;->

You know, I had such *high* hopes for the powerPC...if it had caught on
multi-platform we could have had our cake and candy too.  

Speaking of Galactic, and the desire to run DOS programs, you Mac-heads
have the option of software or hardware emulation that works.  We poor
blighted intel folk can't emulate the Mac a-tall!

Rob has mentioned using JAVA for future projects.  That *should* help. If
he uses pure-Java the programs should run on virtually all our platforms. 
It might not be fast (at this point), but speed isn't really an issue for
this kind of software.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:17:58 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

Yes, I got a copy in my files.
Which would any folk prefer 
- - text file or a scanned gif or jpeg of the 
original article?

Thx
Pat


- ----------
> From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 12:48 PM
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published
in
> > Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm
certain
> > someone out there can briefly recapitulate.
> 
>  Does anyone have a copy of this available?
> 
> --
> _________________________________________
> E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
> 
> All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
> __________________________________________
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:16:02 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government

Hip, Hip Hooray for someone else who reads and watches
obscure television and movies.



- ----------
> From: Andrew Boulton <aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government
> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 2:00 PM
> 
> In-Reply-To: <0057a0241051ea7HOST@simm.net>
> 
> Pat,
> 
> > In ascending order of prestige.
> > 1. Knight
> > 2. Knight Bachelor
> > 3. Knight Commander
> > 4. Knight Grand Commander
> > 5. Knight Grand Cross.
> >  
> > So, in my universe 
> > Brig. Lord Sir Sri Arunda, K.C.M.G., I.C, O.M.S.M., I.M. (ret) 
> > would translate into.
> > Brigadier - Lord (honorary title) Sir (knight hood prefix) NAME, 
> > Knight Commander of the Order St. Michael & St. George (junior order of
> > chivalry) 
> > IC = Imperial Cross (decoration of highest rank) 
> > O.M.S.M = Order of Merit of the Spinward Marches (decoration of lower
> > rank), 
> > and IM = Imperial Marines retired.
> 
> I remember a cute exchange in _Yes, Minister_ (or maybe _Yes, Prime 
> Minister_) about what some of these letter stood for:
> 
> CMG = Call Me God
> KCMG = Kindly Call Me God
> GCMG = God Calls Me God
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 22:57:24 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

On 10/31/97 at 03:52 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

>Do you have Excel v.5? Then you might be interested in my Vehicle Design
>spreadsheet. It works on PC.

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/traveller.html>

I've got a copy of Excel v.5, not the Win95 or 97 versions, though.  I'll
see if I can run it.  

Andy, will your forecoming spreadsheet work with Excel v.5 or Lotus v.5?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 04:05:43 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

>This subject is really getting out of hand.

Or are you losing your grip?  :-)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 04:18:54 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

> So many times I have
>seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
>for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.  

Illustrates my point that not all software is IBM-PC compatible rather well,
I think :-)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 04:16:09 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

>What language are the applications [CSC and Metator] written in?
>
>Perhaps someone could convert them to PC?


You folks want to give me a PC computer, I'll convert them.  Otherwise you'll
have to wait for IG to deign to answer my letters.  (I've tried both
electronic, paper, and disk: no answer to anything.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:40:10 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

I'd prefer text, but I'll take it in any form I can read it!  :)

- ----------
From: 	Pat Connaughton[SMTP:pconn@simm.net]
Sent: 	Friday, October 31, 1997 8:17 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

Yes, I got a copy in my files.
Which would any folk prefer 
- - text file or a scanned gif or jpeg of the 
original article?

Thx
Pat


- ----------
> From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
> Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 12:48 PM
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published
in
> > Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm
certain
> > someone out there can briefly recapitulate.
> 
>  Does anyone have a copy of this available?
> 
> --
> _________________________________________
> E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
> 
> All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of
dropping a god at 500 meters
> __________________________________________
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2042
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 1 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2043



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TNE bashing , praise of PE, etc
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.
Re: Bio-ware (slighlty longer)
Re: Bio-ware
CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers
Re: CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers
CSC on wintel boxes
Re: FF&S2 Ratings
Mutiny (Piracy)
New Version of CSC Uploaded

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:58:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TNE bashing , praise of PE, etc

    I don't doubt that a good campaign can be run from the center of the
stable Imperium.  Just that ideas are more readily come by in the New Era or
the Rebellion.  In a long running campaign, but for players brand new to
Traveller its a boring setting (at least thats been my experience).  
   
>There are differences between the TNE setting and the T4 setting.  In the
>RC, mankind has been nearly destroyed, trillions died in a span of short
>decades, and coldly intelligent starships lurk among the shattered remnants
>of past glory.

   I know the differences between TNE and M:0.  Theres a similarity in it's
underlying concepts is what i was getting at.
   
>I find it interesting that with all your complaining about TNE-bashing, you
>feel free to insult those who still play CT or MT.

   I meant no insult at all to CT or MT.  I said that CT was obviously novice.
It is.  I was pointing out how one can see it's evolution and the need for a
more advanced rules set. No insult intended.  I find MT designs sequences to
be horrible.  All in IMO, of course.  :)
Again, I intended no insult anywhere.  Where was insult percieved?
   I can't remember where, but I saw a complaint on TNE that said the interior
art looked reminiscent of a comic book.  It does a little, to my eye, but I
like it.  I don't remember where or from whom, and don't really want to search
for it, so take it as a babble from me. : )
   My comment on FFS and FFS2 was simply in rebuttal that TNE was "new coke"
and T4 is "classic."  Of course, IG is gonna go w/ something proven. It has
since been relayed to me that the analogy was intended for the setting and not
the rules, anyways.
    I have Pocket Empires, Milieu 0 Campaign, and Psionic Institutes.  I can't
stand the positioning of the tables in the back.  The missing tables are
annoyances and the only hum dinger is the well known UWP snafu in First
Survey.  Other than, I hate the typeface.  I just think every other Traveller
product looks better (though has improved).  It's that First Survey type that
i'm speaking about.  Looks like it came off of a typewriter in someones
garage.
    Pocket Empires is outstanding and i'm using that in a game where I have
about 8 players all starting their pocket empires in a new universe (created
by the equally outstanding Galactic v 2.3 by Jim V), all at tl9 w/ a few npc
PEs to spice things up. Mostly i'm gonna enjoy watching their diplomacy (of
which i've crafted some home rules) and lack thereof. : )  I'm using the
alternate techs from FFS.  We'll see who ends up w/ what and therefor what
strategic advantages, etc, too.  Numerous house rules on extra stuff (im using
Battle Rider for tactical combat and a homemade system for strategic combat
and dirt based).
     
>>      I've tried to keep quiet and i did through the little snide comments
>>and the bash at the authors of TNE and their hard sci fi knowledge.  I get
>>fed up w/ all of the Old Farts and others who can't seem to get enough out
>>of kicking a dead dog.  A snide comment here and derogatory statement there.
>I am, at best, a Middle-Aged Fart, thank you very much!
>Once again.  I am entitled to express my opinion.  I like all forms of
>Traveller, and have played them all.  I never had the chance to run TNE.
>TNE remains in 4th place in my opinion.  This opinion will be reflected in
>my commentary.

Your opinion is obvious. : )  The emphasis goes w/ the kicking of the dead
dog, not on the Old Fart (which is tongue in cheek to the categorization of
the tml'ers in a previous post).  I am also entitled to my opinion, which i
have expressed.  I played MT and TNE.  I Think CT came out before I was born
and I may consider "T4.1" (after a loooong review in the hobby shop).  Between
MT and TNE, there's no contest to me, though i like the bits of future tech
like the disintegrators/jump projectors, etc.  The few CT i have is background
material (though i've quite successfully garnished Double Adventure 6).  I
haven't yet used Milieu 0 campaign, though i found the Milieu 0 section to be
good reading (though i don't like the (well known) canon violations.
Background material probably, and a small desire to support IG. (in vain hope
for my TNE Milieu ?  )  ; )
   Um. I take it u just played in that campaign for 2.5 years, right?  Gotcha.

>>I would think that Traveller is Traveller and u'd be more supportive.
>Very >little that happens in one of your Imperiums is ever gonna be felt in
>>anothers anyways.  Who cares bout whether *your* Imperium goes into
>>Rebellion, Collapse, Emperor Dulinor or Lucan or Strephon or Cleon.
>Pretty >much only you and *maybe* your players.  I never dogged CT or MT.
>Without >em there'd have been no TNE.  
>Go back and read what you've written.  You've done little but belittle CT
>and MT throughout this message.  You've also taken the tact of directly
>insulting people because of their opinions.  This does little to make me
>feel like engaging in a frank discussion of the various merits of the
>different rules with you.
>>       I put up through all th

Um.  I don't really think i was belittling CT and MT, was I?  Where did i
directly insult someone?  

The "whining" on the GDW beta refers the "theft" of the cruch gun, etc.  It
reaches a feverish pitch when we get to AotR.   GDW beta is very polite...
hmm... the "Aliens book is guano" and "[God's Name in vain] Damn GDW!"
Subjects seem to stick out on the archive a bit, don't they? (The latter is
somewhat justified, but decidedly impolite). I see the same "i'm never gonna
buy another product again!" completely uncriticized when its condemned when
done against IG. AotR (which some consider the worst of the TNE books) is
miles above say... Starships and First Survey in quality.  Again the worst of
the T4 products... somewhat notorious.  Whenever I hear an AotR slam, i'm
gonna bring these up.  Do we wanna nanny nanny nah nah! each other? lol
     My one a year Milieu was devils advocate.  I don't expect this.  Some of
those TSR settings were designed to be 1 and 2 year runs, or at least that was
TSRs side of it.  The settings didn't sink TSR.  It was the same thing that
sank GDW... the shifting market and that damnable card game.  Originally, all
IG looked like it was gonna be was a disaster, but it seems to be shaping up
quite nicely.  : ) Will it survive it's first products?  I hope so.
     Much of my post was motivated by the fact that i saw no defense of TNE.
I simply endured a few too many comments and ripped that post out in haste.
I've never seen nor thought that TNE was trying to be kicked off this list,
just that it needed a voice here.  Even if that was the goal, i'd like to see
someone try and kick me off this list.  We've got our own list anyways, but
this was aimed at the new Traveller.  Who sees the TNE bash, but no TNE
defense.  That's all.  Anytime anyone's feeling froggy bout discussing the
merits and detractions of the various settings... I'm game.  Sauce for the
goose...  : )

Happy Travelling.  (especially the T4'ers.  We TNE'ers got it already. lol)

I'm j/k...  no flames please. : )

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 11:43:02 +0000
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Hi,

As a Mac user and fan of Rob Prior's work, I would recommend buying 
virtual PC. I can now run all of the PC software as well. Nothing like 
the best of both worlds... :-) Mac users are definately missing out on 
Campaign cartographer, what a program. You can also play the Traveller PC 
games, but then I don't think that you are really missing anything.

Just as an enquiry did anyone ever write a high Guard program?




David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 04:21:00 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Well Mike, in the past I wrote Traveller gaming aid programs in BASIC
and GW BASIC, but that really sucks to be in Windows and have to load up
first a compiler then then program.  I got my hands on Visual Basic 4.0,
but I'm going to have to learn how to program in it before I can start
converting my traveller prgs.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:04:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:
>
>> I can't think of any softdrinks for the Aliens.  Aslan, Vargr, Great 
>> old..er...I mean Hivers.
>> 
> The Aslan, as I remind me, had a form of tea, that was once published in 
> JTAS as a special cargo (have to read it again for the name). This one 
> would even be canon.

Oh god! The Aslan drink SNAPPLE! 

:-)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:08:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

In mail you write:

> From:  Leonard Erickson[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent:  Friday, 31 October 1997 15:47
> To:  traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:  Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
>
>>In mail you write:
>
>>Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He
>>advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."
>
> Could be worse. It could be a pump action.

I think you fired it by squeezing it....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:19:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail
>>the protagonist into using it by performing a bit of surgery and
>>telling him that *if* he uses it to assassinate the target (some
>>"rebel" leaders) they'll arrange for regenerating the missing part.
>
> I won't ask how the protagonist is expected to, ahem, "inflitrate" the
> rebel organization and, <cough> <wink> gain an audience with the leaders.

Actually, he was already part of it. The government just chose him as
the most likely to "cooperate". The group wasn't doing anything illegal
(yet), but the government was unhappy with them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 04:50:08 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility and Government Hi.

Pat Connaughton wrote:
> 
> Yes, I got a copy in my files.
> Which would any folk prefer
> - text file or a scanned gif or jpeg of the
> original article?
> 

Text works best for me, if that's all right. That way I can include
it in my Library, which my players get, without having to type it all
in.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:05:28 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Bio-ware (slighlty longer)

Jae, 
Here's  a selection of stuff from a new player handout to
my universe.

6. Medical Science in my Universe has kept pace with technology. This
implies a whole new set of medical and biological concepts becoming
possible.
New Medical Technology.
Hardwired nerves
Socket Implants. - Gives greater interaction with equipment
Optical, aural & audio ehancement
Modified limbs - to specification
Implanted tools & weapons
Comp & comm implants
Artificial bones, organs, & tissues
Clone Insurance
Brain & cortical implants
Battle Drugs - Fastime, Slowtime, Berserker III etc
Medical Augumentation Drugs
RNA Memorey Implants Temporary skills and memories by injection, very
expensive
DNA Memorey Implants Permenant skills and memories by injection,  
Insanely expensive Designer Drugs, virus, & biological tools.

Please note that all of the above plus lots of other goodies are possible
but may or may not be legal or available in your area.( now or ever)

7. Negotiable Items of Trade
- - Confirmed Credit Chits - specially designed polymer-metallic items for
large credit transfers. One time use.
Wetware - medical, bioligical tech or data
Software - Computer software and codes etc.
Hardware - Physical equipment in bulk or rarety. May also be proto-types.
Drugs, Hormones, Contraband
Commodities - precious metals, refined ores, raw materials, food etc. Also
Due Bills or delivery
contracts on above items.
Liquid Assets - Cash, Negotiable Securities, Stocks, Corporate Script,
jewelry etc
Artifacts


- ----------
> From: SignalGK@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Bio-ware
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 1:17 PM
> 
> I'm in the process of detailing a port of call where biological equipment
> (bio-ware or bio-constructs) are available for sale..
> 
> Anyone got any good ideas regarding the type of equipment that might be
> available?
> 
> I'm looking for alternative equipment that could be available throughout
the
> Imperium without disrupting the major corporations..
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jae
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:05:58 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Bio-ware

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE694.9AF188C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jae,
Here's a selection of some stuff that I've put together as part of 
infor sheet(s) for some new players to my Universe.

Please let me know if it comes through
Thanks 
Pat

I'll also post it as a note to the 'list

- ----------
> From: SignalGK@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Bio-ware
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 1:17 PM
> 
> I'm in the process of detailing a port of call where biological equipment
> (bio-ware or bio-constructs) are available for sale..
> 
> Anyone got any good ideas regarding the type of equipment that might be
> available?
> 
> I'm looking for alternative equipment that could be available throughout
the
> Imperium without disrupting the major corporations..
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jae
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> SIGNAL GK - a distress signal, a call for help; A Call to Adventure!
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE694.9AF188C0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="additional notes1.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: additional notes1 (Text Document)
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="additional notes1.txt"

6. Medical Science in my Universe has kept pace with technology. This =
implies a whole new set of medical and biological concepts becoming =
possible.
New Medical Technology.
Hardwired nerves
Socket Implants. - Gives greater interaction with equipment
Optical, aural & audio ehancement
Modified limbs - to specification
Implanted tools & weapons
Comp & comm implants
Artificial bones, organs, & tissues
Clone Insurance
Brain & cortical implants
Battle Drugs - Fastime, Slowtime, Berserker III etc
Medical Augumentation Drugs
RNA Memorey Implants Temporary skills and memories by injection, very =
expensive
DNA Memorey Implants Permenant skills and memories by injection, =20
Insanely expensive Designer Drugs, virus, & biological tools.

Please note that all of the above plus lots of other goodies are =
possible but may or may not be legal or available in your area.( now or =
ever)

7. Negotiable Items of Trade
- - Confirmed Credit Chits - specially designed polymer-metallic items for =
large credit transfers. One time use.
Wetware - medical, bioligical tech or data
Software - Computer software and codes etc.
Hardware - Physical equipment in bulk or rarety. May also be =
proto-types.
Drugs, Hormones, Contraband
Commodities - precious metals, refined ores, raw materials, food etc. =
Also Due Bills or delivery
contracts on above items.
Liquid Assets - Cash, Negotiable Securities, Stocks, Corporate Script, =
jewelry etc
Artifacts

=20





- ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE694.9AF188C0--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:05:14 +-1100
From: SCott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers

Just as a potential solution to the PC peoples problem maybe Rob can =
publish what the min requirements to run the program out here. Most old =
Macs will still run most current software and can now be got for a =
pittance.( I have two SE30's and the offer I got for them the other week =
was $40 each. That is only $3 more than the cost of EV.  One of my =
friend purchased a Classic the other week for $20.) You may find that =
you can get the Mac and the software for less that a book.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 06:29:24 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

> Well, there is that, but there's also my POV. I work all day on a Windows
> system supporting ~200 people using Windows systems, so when I go home I
> want a computer that _works_. ;-)
> 
> And it runs the coolest design utility ever invented: CSC. If Rob's
> incarnation of FFS2 is up to the standards he's set with his other
> products, Mac's are going to become a gearhead must-have.
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 

Well Bruce, all i have are PC's, and previous to that, I had C/PM
machines and a Commodore-128.

I once had an Amiga500 as well, and I'll say this for it : my PC with an
Awe-32 sound card does not even compare in sound quality to the little
Amiga500 and it's rca jacks.

I also have a 286, 386 and 486 as well as my Pentium.  All PC's built by
me, trying to learn how.  The Pentium was designed expressly for windows
95, which is why it has 81megs RAM and 2 2.1 gig hard drives and a
Matrox Millenium 4meg SVGA card.  Overkill, but not when you think about
Active Desktop and windows 98 (due out later next year).  So as you can
see, I've dumped all my spare cash into PC's and have nothing left for a
Mac, even if I wished to buy one. My first look at a Mac was the
"classic" model, with the absurdly tiny monochrome screen.  Certainly
not too impressive.  Later, I attended an Apple computer symposium where
then unveiled the Apple //gs and Machintosh II, and finally they decided
to hook a real monitor up to those things.  :)  At the time it was
impressive as they had a 3d cad/cam program running.


- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 06:47:26 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > So many times I have
> >seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
> >for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.
> 
> Illustrates my point that not all software is IBM-PC compatible rather well,
> I think :-)

Actually, 99% of everything I've seen written for Traveller, aside from
the two games for MegaTraveller, has been written on the Mac.  A lot of
it in Hypercard, whatever that is.  :)

It would be nice to see SOMETHING that works, written on the PC.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 06:51:28 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers

SCott Levy wrote:
> 
> Just as a potential solution to the PC peoples problem maybe Rob can publish what the min requirements to run the program out here. Most old Macs will still run most current software and can now be got for a pittance.( I have two SE30's and the offer I got for them the other week was $40 each. That is only $3 more than the cost of EV.  One of my friend purchased a Classic the other week for $20.) You may find that you can get the Mac and the software for less that a book.
> 
> Scott
That will work.  But I won't touch a "classic".  Gak.  Something more
modern though...

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:10:09 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers

Yes...but explaining to the Mrs. why there is ANOTHER computer in
the den will be an Adventure in and of itself.  Shame you cannot make saving throws in 
that situation. :)

On  2 Nov 97 at 0:05, SCott Levy wrote:

From:           	SCott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
To:             	"'Traveller'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:        	CSC software: Potential Fix for PCers
Date sent:      	Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:05:14 +-1100
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> Just as a potential solution to the PC peoples problem maybe Rob can
> publish what the min requirements to run the program out here. Most old
> Macs will still run most current software and can now be got for a
> pittance.( I have two SE30's and the offer I got for them the other week
> was $40 each. That is only $3 more than the cost of EV.  One of my friend
> purchased a Classic the other week for $20.) You may find that you can get
> the Mac and the software for less that a book.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:29:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Andy Holzricher <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: CSC on wintel boxes

This info is on very little test but...  I downloaded executor from ARDI.
Installed it and downloaded CSC.  It runs and appears to work fine.  It
looks like we can run CSC and there might be hope for metator.
				Andy Holzrichter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 11:33:22 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Ratings

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:32, Andy Akins <igor@ames.net> wrote:
> I'm putting the final touches on my FF&S starship design worksheet...it
> should be  up on my web site this weekend. 

Cool!  Hope I'm not too late with the comments ...

> FF&S has it's own format, kindof freeform, that I'm not too found
> of. I like the QSDS/SSDS format. However, the QSDS/SSDS format doesn't
> allow for all the information that FF&S contains.

Right, I agree.  In general, the format you've got looks good to me.  I've
got a few humble requests, based in work that's in progress* (or will be,
once I get unpacked in a week or so).

 So I sort of merged them
>together...here's what I came up with (by the way, this is directly from
>the spreadsheet):
>
>-
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>- ----
>Aurora, Aurora class far trader
>Designed by Andrew Akins
>
>Statistics
>  Tons: 200std (SL Slab HS)        Crew: 3/4           Cargo:58std (0/4)
>  Volume: 2800m3                   Pass Hi/Med: 0/7    Cost: 68.3MCr
>  Mass (L/C): 2,767t/1,810t        Pass Low: 4         MP: 63
>  Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m Troops/Science: 0/0 TL: 12
>  Size: 8                          Frozen Watch: 0
>
>Electronics:
>  Controls: Dynamic. Standard Automation. 3xComputer (/CP:.45). No bridge.
>  Commo: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
>  Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5, 0.00MW). 1xAEMS (7, 0.02MW).
>  Survey/Science:
>  ECM:
>
>Weaponry                             Performance
>  2xLaser Turret (+0) 1/1-1-0-0         2 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
>                                  1.0/1.5 Maneuver (/Thruster:70MW)
>                                  1.0/1.5 Contra-Grav (48MW)
>                                        1 Power (/Fusion:130MW,1.0)
>                                     41.4 Fuel (/Scoop:5 /Purif:6,3MW)
>                               0/11/0/4/0 Acommodations
>                                       33 Life Support (/Type:St /FQ:N /Sto)
>                                        2 G-Comp 
>                                        0 ESA
>                                        0 Sandcasters
>                                        0 Damper Turrets
>                                        0 Damper Screens
>                                        0 Meson Screens
>                                        0 Force Field
>                                        0 Gravtics
>        -0.5/0.0 (-0.5/0.0 at 13MW), -1.5 Signature
>                                       10 Armor, Structure 11
>
>Features
>  2xAirlock               1xDocking Umbilical
>
>Small Craft
>  1xMinimal Hangar (2std craft)
>
>Backups
>  Drives:
>  Screens:
>  Commo:
>  Sensors:
>  Survey/Science:
>  ECM:
>  Power & Fuel:
>
>Crew Details
>  2xMnvr. 1xEngr. 1xMed.
>-
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>- ----
>It looks alot better in the worksheet 'cause I use fonts.
>
>Most of it should be self explanatory -

>All weaponry, armor and structure are rated using the USP system in
>QSDS/SSDS.

I'd suggest also including the "raw" (FF&S2) values wherever possible, and
particularly for armor (maybe in parentheses?).  The new FF&S2 values are 
compatible with the numbers in the T4 basic rules (so you can know what 
happens when you shoot at a starship with a laser rifle).  Thus, you'd
have something like: "10 Armor (120), Structure 11"  (or whatever the correct 
conversion is).

I'll try to keep the updated QSDS and RPSC as "compatible" as possible, and
will provide conversion tabless from the version 1.x values to the new ones 
whenever I make a change, but it's likely that you'll want to revise some of 
the conversions in your spreadsheet once the new versions of QSDS and RPSC 
are out.  The revised  versions of QSDS and RPSC will make more use of the 
FF&S2 numbers (particularly for sensors) as well.

>So....what do people think? 

Go fur it!o


* For the curious, the work that's in progress is QSDS 2.0 (FF&S2 compatible),
  and a new revision of RPSC that's FF&S2/QSDS2 compatible.  With a little 
  luck, maybe the new QSDS will be ready in time for Marc to look at it, and 
  make the T4.1 design system QSDS2/FF&S2 compatible too (Marc, any idea
  what that deadline might be?).


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 18:34:46
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Mutiny (Piracy)

Unless I've missed something, no-one has cited mutiny as one of the way for
pirates to get hold of a starship. 

This is probably rare, but it explains nicely why they can't resell it and
just retire. And if the ship is good enough, it will be able to destroy
SDBs and raise havoc in most places.





__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 18:02:38 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: New Version of CSC Uploaded

I couldn't sleep last night, which is lucky for you CSC-users out there,
because you get a new version!

This one adds external crew and passengers, so you can now design those grav
bikes.  I also fixed a bug in the cost of grav compensators (turns out that
CSC was always treating them as TL10, therefore stacking them at higher tech
levels).

I also added the hooks for computers and autopilots, although I haven't
included those yet.  Maybe later.

Cockpit armour has moved from the "Crew and Passengers"  dialog to the
"Armour" dialog.


As usual, you can find it at:

http://www.interlog.com/dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2043
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 1 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2044



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Aurens Motorbike (TL5)
El Aurens Gravbike (TL12)
Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Bilanidin Font
Re: Killing Major races
Re: Killing Major races
Re: UH?
Re: Reading Query
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Recoil in shame and horror
Biilan Sprite (TL9)
Seadoo (TL7)
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: New Version of CSC Uploaded
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Imperium tech level changes?
"Theft"?
A modest CSC proposal
Re: Transponders
CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover
Re: CSC on wintel boxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 18:03:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Aurens Motorbike (TL5)

Aurens Motorbike (TL5)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.10 displacement ton open-topped close structure;  1.38 tonnes;  kCr
23.9
Chassis:
     1.40 kL open-topped close structure (2.4 m long x 1.8 m wide x 41 cm
high);  Structure: 112 kg of hard steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.010 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     200 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 200 L of
high-grade hcarb (200 kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 200 kW wheels; Maximum Speed: 117 km/h; 
Range: 938 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     45.2 L of cargo space

Humans, especially adolescent males, have a burning desire for speed at any
cost. The Aurens motorbike is targeted at that market. Bare-bones, with not
even a windscreen for comfort, the Aurens provides an intimate acquiantance
with speed, as well as hours of enjoyment tinkering with its finicky engine.
Curiously, the latter has been an asset rather than a liability: true Aurens
riders disdain anyone who can't field-strip their motorbike!



Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 18:04:23 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: El Aurens Gravbike (TL12)

El Aurens Gravbike (TL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.10 displacement ton open-topped disk streamlined;  819 kg;  kCr 10.2
Chassis:
     1.40 kL open-topped disk streamlined (2.1 m long x 2.1 m wide x 41 cm
high);  Structure: 24.2 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     126 kW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 3.95 L of enriched water
(3.95 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 1919 km/h; 
Range: 191188 km;  Agility: -16DM (17.4G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 external crew station;  1 external passenger
seat; Protection: front
     Grav Compensation (3G), Only seating compensated
Communications:
     Continental Radio (1.00 kW, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 0.200 mm per km of range
Other:
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     508 L of cargo space

Inspired by the Aurens motorbike, the El Aurens gravbike is named after an
ancient Terran hero who fought enemies and built the pyramids. Built for
speed and little else, it appeals mainly to young humans suffering from
hormonal imbalances.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:48:27 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Carbonated Beverages in Traveller

In a message dated 30/10/97 23:45:25 GMT, you write:

<< One day after receiving the "Bilanidin Bold" 
 font, i decided to decode some of the script found in various T4 
 publications. >>

Where, oh where can I get a copy? Is it available in Truetype...?

Help, please...

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 19:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In-Reply-To: <971030.220820.1w5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> I just had a flashback to the Babylon 5 episode where Londo was
> cheating at cards. I wonder if the Centauri have derringers built to be
> handled by that appendage? :-)

Two words:

Chamber explosion

<shudder>
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 18:45:18 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Bilanidin Font

I've tried to get to <<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>>
all morning, but keep getting my connections refused by the server.

Could someone please email me the Mac TrueType version of this font?

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 19:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Killing Major races

In-Reply-To: <199710311418.OAA05906@sand.global.net.uk>

MJ,

> Interesting thought, the one I inferred from certain posts; that the Aslan
> were 'killed off' by the discovery that they were a minor race.

I count that as more of a reclassification than genocide. 

_Anomalies_ stated that the entire Droyne race was wiped out ~200,000 years 
ago.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 19:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Killing Major races

In-Reply-To: <199710311418.OAA05906@sand.global.net.uk>

MJ,

> Interesting thought, the one I inferred from certain posts; that the Aslan
> were 'killed off' by the discovery that they were a minor race.

I count that as more of a reclassification than genocide. 

_Anomalies_ stated that the entire Droyne race was wiped out ~200,000 years 
ago.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 19:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: UH?

In-Reply-To: <971031.063405.5I7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> > I don't know how to break this to you folks, but... we had baseball 
> > here _first_.  It was played for many years in Derby, England;
> > indeed, until this autumn Derby County F.C. played at a ground called 
> > the Baseball Ground, 'cause -- you guessed it -- it's where baseball 
> > used to be played.  A looong time ago.
>  
> Well, baseball dates back to before the US Civil War, so I don't know
> if that counts as "a looong time ago".

According to my encyclopedia, it is "believed to have been invented by a 
West Point cadet...in 1839." However, it is almost certainly based on the 
English game of rounders, which dates back to at least 1744.

Now, tell me again how many countries take part in the World Series...?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 19:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Reading Query

In-Reply-To: <199710261918.NAA04644@pentagon.io.com>

Joseph,

> Since we're tossing around influential authors and titles, and seem to
> have a lot of well-read folks participating, I thought I'd ask whether
> anyone is familiar with a short story I read lo these twenty years ago or
> so and recalled the other day.  It was anthologized in a library book,
> so I suspect it predates the '70's by a fair amount.
>  
> The setting is a "treasure trove" city on an alien planet, chock-full of
> precious metals and artifacts.  But it's guarded by a fearsome robot who,
> whenever someone comes calling, asks them an obscure question and then
> kills them when they answer.  Our Hero and his partner have equipped their
> ship with top-of-the-line library data in order to answer any question
> perfectly via a radio link: but the partner still gets killed despite his 
> flawless answers.

I posted your query here on CIX and got the following reply:

> Robert Silverberg, "The Sixth Palace". It's in his 1966 collection 
> =Needle in a Timestack=, and no doubt reprinted in the more recent 
> Collect Stories but I dunno which volume.
>
> Dave Langford
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 97 14:07:49 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

On 11/01/97 at 01:19 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>>>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail
>>>the protagonist into using it by performing a bit of surgery and
>>>telling him that *if* he uses it to assassinate the target (some
>>>"rebel" leaders) they'll arrange for regenerating the missing part.

>> I won't ask how the protagonist is expected to, ahem, "inflitrate" the
>> rebel organization and, <cough> <wink> gain an audience with the leaders.

>Actually, he was already part of it. The government just chose him as the
>most likely to "cooperate". The group wasn't doing anything illegal (yet),
>but the government was unhappy with them.

Was the name of this story "The Boxer", by any chance?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 97 14:11:34 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 11/01/97 at 09:29 AM,  Andy Holzricher <jhereg@southwind.net> said:

>This info is on very little test but...  I downloaded executor from ARDI.
>Installed it and downloaded CSC.  It runs and appears to work fine.  It
>looks like we can run CSC and there might be hope for metator.

More information, please!

I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:23:26 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror

Leonard Erickson sez,

>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail
>>the protagonist into using it by performing a bit of surgery and
>>telling him that *if* he uses it to assassinate the target (some
>>"rebel" leaders) they'll arrange for regenerating the missing part.

Kenji replies,

>I won't ask how the protagonist is expected to, ahem, "inflitrate" the
>rebel organization and, <cough> <wink> gain an audience with the leaders.

The story was "The Pugilist", by Poul Anderson, in _2020 Visions_ (Avon
1974) a quite good anthology  edited (ironically enough) by Jerry
Pournelle. The story takes place in People's Soviet America, after those
danged Godless Russkies have taken over. 

>>Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He
>>advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."

Something very much like this is indeed a scene in the story - in fact it's
the, uh, climax...
 
><VBG>  I wonder if it has a safety catch on it?  I guess gears are starting
>to grow in my head or something, but I still like the popup voice activated
>laser-dot-sighted plasma cannon version, too.

Actually, Anderson's is a small fission gun(!), which supposedly brings
tiny uranium pellets to critical mass and directs the energy release with a
laser. It is fired by a squeeze mechanism, even has a self-destruct
feature.

Rather a wacky story actually; full of weepy over-the-top patriotic
sentiment. Like the scene where the new Revolutionary troops blow up the
Stone Mountain monument with artillery.

+ GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 19:26:49 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Biilan Sprite (TL9)

Biilan Sprite (TL9)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.80 displacement ton open-topped slab;  4.09 tonnes;  kCr 20.9
Chassis:
     11.2 kL open-topped slab (7.6 m long x 2.2 m wide x 69 cm high); 
Structure: 181 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.15 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     500 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 500 L of hydrocarbons
(500 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 500 kW hoverskirt; Maximum Speed: 110 km/h; 
Range: 1098 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  3 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL9, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: wet bar
     610 L of cargo space

Popular on resort worlds, the Biilan Sprite provides the thrill of speeding
through wetlands scaring the local wildlife and risking instant decapitation
from low branches. Although the passenger seats swivel to permit 'trolling',
few seriously believe that the passengers are trying to catch fish.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Nov 1997 19:26:00 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Seadoo (TL7)

Seadoo (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.05 displacement ton open-topped wedge;  463 kg;  Cr 3939
Chassis:
     700 L open-topped wedge (2.8 m long x 1.1 m wide x 70 cm high); 
Structure: 28.6 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.13 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant, water-cooled;  Fuel:
50.0 L of high-grade hcarb (50.0 kg), 4 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW watercraft; Maximum Speed: 58 km/h; 
Range: 232 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: helmsman;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.

Periodically in favour with the yuppie "outdoorsman", the Seadoo can
frequently be found shattering the silence near fashionable resorts. Utterly
useless in anything except calm waters, with virtually no endurance, the
Seadoo is nothing more than an expensive toy for those who believe that the
great outdoors comes with 200 holovid channels and air conditioning.

Unconfirmed rumours hold that some planets treat the killing of Seadoo
operators as public duty rather than murder.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 13:01:46 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> I've tried to get to <<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>>
> all morning, but keep getting my connections refused by the server.
> 
> Could someone please email me the Mac TrueType version of this font?
> 
> Thanks.

you need to reverse the "\" marks to "/", then you can logon.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:49:26 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: New Version of CSC Uploaded

Did you fix that darn MAC-only bug???

JUST KIDDING!!! :)


> I couldn't sleep last night, which is lucky for you CSC-users out there,
> because you get a new version!
> 
> This one adds external crew and passengers, so you can now design those
> grav bikes.  I also fixed a bug in the cost of grav compensators (turns
> out that CSC was always treating them as TL10, therefore stacking them at
> higher tech levels).
> 
> I also added the hooks for computers and autopilots, although I haven't
> included those yet.  Maybe later.
> 
> Cockpit armour has moved from the "Crew and Passengers"  dialog to the
> "Armour" dialog.
> 
> 
> As usual, you can find it at:
> 
> http://www.interlog.com/dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html
> 


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:09:31 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

I DL and installed and it looked like a Mac, but wasn't all that great.  In fact, it locked up 2-3 times, so I uninstalled.

From:           	eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date sent:      	Sat, 01 Nov 97 14:11:34 -0600
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:        	Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> On 11/01/97 at 09:29 AM,  Andy Holzricher <jhereg@southwind.net> said:
> 
> >This info is on very little test but...  I downloaded executor from ARDI.
> >Installed it and downloaded CSC.  It runs and appears to work fine.  It
> >looks like we can run CSC and there might be hope for metator.
> 
> More information, please!
> 
> I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's? 
> What are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
> 
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 16:09:06 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

At 11:01 PM 10/30/97 +0800, Kenji wrote:

>Murderously atheistic Commie lesbians (who probably build
>fusion-plus powered water pipes with which to abuse drug drug)

Sadly, this describes my wife's favorite Traveller character...

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 16:03:57 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium tech level changes?

At 02:29 PM 10/31/97 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:

>> IMHO, the tech level of the Imperium changes when enough Industrial worlds
>> exist at the new TL to support a wholescale upgrade of the Imperial
>> Military to the new standard.

>But the real fun is that the TL 12 suppliers are probably not the same
>bunch
>as the TL 13 suppliers... imagine having to tell your boss you lost a
>contract for half a million grav tanks. Ouch.

Look what happened to IBM.  For a few decades "IBM" and "Computers" were
almost synonymous to the great unwashed.  Then they told two guys named
Jobs and Wozniack to take a walk...  They almost recovered, But then Bill
Gates blew into town, and Intel (founded by more IBM refugees) pulled the
rug out from under them.  IBM survived by virtue of it's shear size, but in
the public's mind, it's almost a non-entity.

>I'd imagine that there are only a handful of really high-tech worlds in
>the Imperium vying for pan-Imperial military equipment contracts. The
>competition would probably get pretty heated when you consider that you
>could probably put the entirety of modern-day Earth on to a couple of
>really fat Naval contracts. There's an adventure in there somewhere...

I imagine a great part of Rhylanor, Mora, and Glisten's GPP comes from
selling arms to the Imperial forces in the Spinward Marches.  Those great
corporations would also train field reps to operate the branch offices,
where upgrades and repairs were taken care of.. this would slowly spread
the highest technology around, causing a slow TL rise throughout the Imperium.


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:38:05 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: "Theft"?

> The "whining" on the GDW beta refers the "theft" of the cruch gun, etc.

And I thought the days of GDW being accused of theft were gone...sigh...

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:02:43 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: A modest CSC proposal

	It just occurred to me that CSC could really benefit from an
"Accomodations" dialog box: one that allowed you to add SSDS/FF&S-standard
Low Berths, ELB's, Bunks, Small Staterooms, Large Staterooms, and so forth.
It'd be a nice touch for the big long-haul multi-passenger vehicles; as it
is, I just add a couple of roomy seats per crewmember to simulate bunkage.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:58:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Transponders

Guy Hunter writes:
>Hmmm, I guess this is where we differ - I look at the Imperium as one big
>Empire - therefore as long as you are within its borders you are free to
>come and go as you choose... Its when you leave you need to have papers -
>more or less to prove that you are actually citizens of the imperium - but
>for the most part i would wager nearly 10-25% of the population in my
>universe moves around from world to world - that would be an extremely
>high overhead to maintain track of... 

10% of the Imperium's 15 trillion inhabitants is 1,500,000 million people.
If the average lifespan was 75 years and each of them took ONE round trip
(one jump-1 mid passage out and one jump-1 mid passage home) once in a
lifetime, you'd have 40,000 million jump-1 trips per year. You'd need
500,000 5000 T pure passenger liners to carry that number of people,
assuming 100% occupancy. Or you'd need more than 13 million 600 T pure
passenger liners with 90% occupancy. A planet with 10 billion inhabitants
would need 8900 600 T liners just to take care of its own citizens, ships
from neighboring worlds not included.

If some of them take high passage or 2-parsec trips or if some of the ships
carry cargo you need more ships. If some of them actually takes more than
one round trip per lifetime, the number of ships required gets kinda big...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:59:35 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover

	A little something that I did up with the latest CSC.  Rob, if IG
isn't paying attention to this, it must be because they have rocks in their
heads.


Vacuum Rover (small) (TL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     10.00 displacement ton box;  123 tonnes;  MCr 1.63
Chassis:
     140 kL box (8.1 m long x 4.2 m wide x 4.2 m high);  Structure: 1.83
tonnes of light composite, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.010 cm thick, sealed to
1 atm, 1 armour rating

Performance:
     Primary: 10.0 MW TL8 Fission power plant;  Fuel: 2.40 L of
radioisotopes (48.0 kg), 480 hours supply
Secondary: 10.00 kW TL10 Photoelectric power plant
     Propulsion System: 5.00 MW wheels with adverse condition x4;
Maximum Speed: 123 km/h;
Range: 58970 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, Navigator;  2 crew stations;  4 roomy passenger seats
     Standard life support, waste handling and shower facilities; Airlocks:
2 normal; Hatches: 2 manual, 1 power
Armament:
  Weapon                Damage  Range     Shots    Reloads   Notes
  Machinegun, Heavy-10  9       Long      300     1         +2DM, remoteturret
Communications:
     Continental Maser (1.00 kW, TL10, SmVcl)
     Continental Radio (1.00 kW, TL10, DirAnt, DirFnd)
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL10, SmVcl, DirAnt, DirFnd)
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL10, SmVcl, DirAnt, DirFnd)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 5.0 mm per km of range
     Passive Subcontinental Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 5.0 mm per km of range
     Active Regional Optical (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 1.0 mm per km of range
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, recreation space, wet bar, kitchen for
6 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: Roadgrid, fire suppression system
     Construction Equipment: crane can lift 10.0 tonnes, blade can move 100
kL per hour, shovel can dig 5.0 m deep and excavate 10.0 kL per hour
     10.0 m3 of lab space; 71.9 kL of cargo space

A multi-purpose exploration vehicle designed for extended scientific,
exploratory, or prospecting operations in hostile environments.  The 10 MW
fission power plant gives it remarkable range.  A Machinegun, Heavy -10 in
a turret mount is provided in case of hostile encounters.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:16:12 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, November 01, 1997 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes


>On 11/01/97 at 09:29 AM,  Andy Holzricher <jhereg@southwind.net> said:
>
>>This info is on very little test but...  I downloaded executor from ARDI.
>>Installed it and downloaded CSC.  It runs and appears to work fine.  It
>>looks like we can run CSC and there might be hope for metator.
>
>More information, please!
>
>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
>
>Eris

Eris,

I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part of
it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2044
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 2 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2045



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Raiders vs. pirates
Re: Imperial Nobility
BITS contact address?
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys
Re: Piracy, Transponders, and you.
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Imperial Nobility
Peltast IFV (TL7)
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys
WHOA, Now!
Re: Piracy---the new era!
Re: Piracy -- the new era
Re: CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover
Re: A modest CSC proposal
CSC Madness: Big Blue Machine (TL8)
Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:34:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs. pirates

Steven Hudson writes:
>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> ...
>>The patrols in question exist to spot an invasion fleet and
>>immediately jump back to the main fleet with the news.  They
>>don't have to be armed enough to be able to stop a pirate,
>>be close enough to be able arrive in time to stop a pirate,
>>or even necessarily be able to reliably spot single ships.
>>Furthermore, the would exist only within some distance
>>of the frontier.
>
>  That's a remarkably limited picket design - it has one very
>specific peacetime and no wartime function. Why don't pirates
>just hunt these underarmed things for parts?

To be fair, Navy scouts (as distinct from Scout scouts) on an invasion
watch would not be deployed in any place where they would have a chance
to interfere with merchants, pirates, or raiders. They would be either be
deployed powered down as as far away from whatever planet they are watching
as their sensors will allow, propably at a right angle to the system, to
make it extremely unlikely that any enemy can target them. Or they will
be constantly moving about, in the same sort of area, but very careful
never to be in the same place as they were two weeks earlier, again to
prevent enemies from targeting them. They certainly wouldn't be anywhere
close to a regular trade route.

Still, it is difficult to imagine any military mind _not_ puttting arms
on any military ship and also to design a ship with only one possible
function. The ship I would imagine used for scout duties would be something
like the 400 T courier from _Fighting Ships_, though perhaps with somewhat
better maneuver drives.

Anyway, armed or not, the scouts that David believes in will not be able
to help against pirates. What David evidently dosen't believe in are all
the OTHER small ships, like the destroyers and escorts from FS -- or the
cruisers and battleships that FS also states are deployed away from the
fleets in peacetime, for that matter. I must say that I'd love to play
against David in a TCS campaign, at least if he promises to build and
deploy his fleet according to the principles he has proposed during this
debate.
 
>>>  BTW, have you had any further luck with coming up with what
>>>sources (besides merchants pirating on the side) would provide
>>>hulls, especially larger ones, for piracy inside the 3I?
>>
>>I haven't been trying.  You must be thinking of someone else.
>>I see not reason why pirates don't just use armed comercial
>>ships.

Good. I'm glad we got that nailed down. So pirates use armed commercial
ships. That means they are outgunned by navy ships of their own or even
lower tonnage (commercial ships have the lowest possible computer for
their jump rating while navy ships have as high computer as their TL
will allow -- the single most effective piece of fighting equipment on
a Traveller starship is the computer). Upgrading the computer is costly
and makes the ship even more costly to maintain. Indeed, you still
haven't explained how our weekend pirate manages to make ends meet. As
I've pointed out before, in the Traveller universe you can make living
carrying goods from port to port or you can move around searching for
suitable victims. You cannot do both.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:12:30 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility

Rob Prior writes:
>There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published in
>Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm certain
>someone out there can briefly recapitulate.

If you can get hold of _THE Traveller Chronicle_ #9 I had an article about
the nobility in that issue. I summarized it in a message to the list a
couple of months ago, so I won't do it again just yet (to summarize the
summary: The Traveller social system fails to account for non-imperial
nobles and I provide an alternate system), but if anyone is interested I
could send him a copy by e-mail.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 03:33:08 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: BITS contact address?

With a change that I never really took notice of in the TOS of
=46reelance Traveller's host, I can now unquestionably do some
stuff that I considered borderline before.  Doing so will make
=46reelance Traveller marginally more of a resource for Traveller
fans.

Can someone send me contact information for BITS, and for any
other organization doing Traveller-related stuff, so that I can
include that in the Freelance Traveller InfoCenter?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:48:35 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Kiga/msha/kruu:d Doug Berrygim:

>At 11:01 PM 10/30/97 +0800, Kenji wrote:
>
>>Murderously atheistic Commie lesbians (who probably build
>>fusion-plus powered water pipes with which to abuse drug drug)
>
>Sadly, this describes my wife's favorite Traveller character...

Wait, wait, I know, lemme guess who this is!  It's Archduke Norris!  Am I
right, or what?

Side note: I tried using CSC to build abovementioned substance abuse
paraphernalia, but it didn't feel quite right.  I really will have to buy
FF&S2, even if it is missing the alternative technology sections of the
original.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:57:31 -0500 (EST)
From: SWMego@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys

In a message dated 97-11-01 00:38:50 EST, you write:

> All Snapshot does is assign "action points" to every action a PC can
>  take.  If you want to move, it's 1 AP per square (squares are 1.5 meter
>  grid).  If you want to fire your weapon, it's 4 AP's to fire a
>  revolver--more AP's are required if you want to fire an automatic
>  weapon.

Is the AP determind by the DEX and END? Is it the sum of the two?

Derek...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:24:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy, Transponders, and you.

SemoFetus@aol.com writes:
>No, naval forces at the borders will have bigger fish to fry.  Coreward, the
>Imperium is not at "war" with the Vargr, but there are many incursions into
>Imperial space.

Some people would call that war. I have a hard time believing that the
imperium would have quite as cavalier an attitude to piracy as some of my
opponents think. I have an even harder time believing that they would not
frown on Vargr raids.

>That would be the first priority of the Navy.

Well, I agree. But I think that this would manifest itself in the Navy
using a few more percent of their strength. And never forget that Vargr
corsairs suffer from the same disadvantage that human pirates do: They
have to keep their outfits in the black. No kindly government will
repair their battle damage and replace their dead crewmembers. Fighting
the Imperium is just not cost effective. Nor is it cost effective for
Vargr planets to support Vargr corsairs, since the Imperium would treat
anyone caught doing so as the US treated the Barbary States.

>On the Zhodani border I'm sure alot of manpower goes into monitoring Zhodani
>ship movements, even when they're not at war.

A _Gazelle_ or a Fleet Courier is as effective at that task as any cruiser
or battleship. You won't burn up much of the Navy budget monitoring the
Zhodani.
 
>I think the Cr500 per head is too high.  After reading through Trillion
>Credit Squadron, which is where the figure comes from, I have decided the
>number doesn't _work_.  TCS is a set of wargame rules with simplified wargame
>economics. As such doesn't reflect proper balance.
> 
>In addition, it just doesn't fit well with the Imperium.  It seems to be more
>geared towards smaller pocket empires battling each other than anything else.

You can reduce the figure to Cr300 per head and use 40% of that on other
branches of the military and you will still get a huge fleet.
 
>If I am to use the Cr500 tax rate, then I'll argue that it is the _total_
>imperial tax rate, and _everything_ comes out of it.  The XBoats, the
>bureaucracy, Imperial colonization projects, naval depots, scout waystations,
>scout bases, imperial run starports, imperial colonies, big navy ships, etc
>etc.

Ah... of those 500 only 30% went to the Imperium by the original calculations.
If you're willing to give a full Cr500 per citizen to the Imperium then I see
no problem in funding all those other branches. Though I would expect the
X-boats and most of the starports to make a profit.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:33:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Date: 02 Nov 1997 03:31:17 GMT
Message-Id: <355659774.340125379@nybe.north-york.on.ca>
Organization: North York Board of Education

>>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>>>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail

>Was the name of this story "The Boxer", by any chance?

Pretty close.  It was called "The Pugilist", I believe.  You know, the Roman
boxers...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:46:22 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior writes:
> >There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published in
> >Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm certain
> >someone out there can briefly recapitulate.
> 
> If you can get hold of _THE Traveller Chronicle_ #9 I had an article about
> the nobility in that issue. I summarized it in a message to the list a
> couple of months ago, so I won't do it again just yet (to summarize the
> summary: The Traveller social system fails to account for non-imperial
> nobles and I provide an alternate system), but if anyone is interested I
> could send him a copy by e-mail.
> 
>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>          events based on the individual situation."
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8
> 
> 
I am interested.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: 02 Nov 1997 03:28:39 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Peltast IFV (TL7)

Peltast IFV (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  13.3 tonnes;  kCr 103
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 713 kg
of hard steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick
     Armour: 8 front (2.0 cm, moderate slope), 6 sides (1.0 cm), 6 rear (1.0
cm), 6 top (1.0 cm), 6 bottom (1.0 cm)
Performance:
     701 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 876 L of
high-grade hcarb (876 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 700 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 68 km/h; 
Range: 681 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, gunner, commander;  3 crew stations;  8 roomy
passenger seats
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Autocannon, Light-6             10        Long           100     15     
  +2DM, turret1 gunner
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL7, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     89.5 L of cargo space

The Peltast Infantry Fighting Vehicle is an armed battle-taxi, designed to
both carry a squad into action and provide it with fire support. 

Varients include cheaper versions with no fire control (costing 83 kCr) and
rear-echelon models armed only with machineguns (costing 65 kCr).


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:55:45 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys

> Is the AP determind by the DEX and END? Is it the sum of the two?
> 
> Derek...
> 
From the rules book, page -4-

Action Points

	Action points allow a character to perform actions during the turn. 
Each character receives an allocation of action points equal to the sum
of his ENDURANCE and DEXTERITY characteristics (exception:  if this sum
is less then six, the character receives an allocation of six action
points).
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 00:29:44 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: WHOA, Now!

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:58:52, TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> wrote:
>The "whining" on the GDW beta refers the "theft" of the cruch gun, etc.

WHOA, now!  I'd like to point out that the "Crunch Gun" was _NOT_ stolen,
from anyone, at any point in time.  I was the designer, and Loren Wiseman
asked for, and recieved, my permission to print it in two T:TNE books, with
the proviso that I get a copy of the book, and credit for the design.  Due
to editorial slip-up at GDW, the credit was omitted from one of the books.

I'm hardly the first or only person that's happened to, and GDW is hardly
the first or only company that's done it.  I recieved a satisfactory apology 
from Loren and GDW, and I consider the matter closed.  

If half-baked accusations and innuendo based on skimming parts of message 
threads is what I get for making an archive of the GDW-Beta list available, 
then I think it's time to take that archive down.  It's a part of Traveller's 
and T:TNE's history, but it appears that it's outlived its usefulness.  One
incident like this was too many.

>Much of my post was motivated by the fact that i saw no defense of TNE.

If your posts are 'defense', I think most T:TNE fans would have appreciated
silence.  It certainly hasn't raised my opinion of the people who play TNE,
thankfully, my opinion of the game is unlikely to change due to your posts.

I've spent a considerable amount of time and personal energy working on 
T:TNE-related subjects.  I'm certainly not 'against' it (though I've been
known to criticize it's failings), but I feel that T4 is the currently-active 
product, and I spend the bulk of my time supporting and extending that.  I 
don't particularly appreciate being dragged into this argument, particularly 
in the (presumed) 'against T:TNE' camp because I don't leap to answer every 
T:TNE question that comes along, or because I'm critical of what IMHO are
the worst features of the game.

>I simply endured a few too many comments and ripped that post out in haste.

Some friendly advice: I can't think of a single occasion where I've sent a
post in haste or anger where my words improved things.  In situations like
this, wait a few hours or a day and re-read your post.  If it still seems
reasonable and relevant, send it.  If not, forward it to the trashcan.
You'd be surprised how many flames start from the careless posting of
unintentionally-incendiary material.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:21:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy---the new era!

David P. Summers writes:
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>>Exactly. And if it only takes a tiny percentage of the active fleet to
>>safeguard all the necessary places, I submit that such is the case. You
>>may argue that _all_ the active ships of the regular, colonial, and
>>planetary fleets would be needed to sit around the high-population
>>worlds looking menacing, instead of just 99.8% of them, but this is just
>>as clearly contrary to previously published material.
> 
>Well, we already know that I don't agree that the percentage is
>as tiny as you describe

Sure you do, you just haven't bothered to do the math yet ;-). You said
in another posting that you believe 12 ships are needed to safeguard a
planet and that a system will have an average of 5 places to guard. I
believe that you are overestimating on both counts, but never mind that
for the moment. If you are right it would require 50,000 12-ship squadrons
for the entire Imperium. If you use 1000 T destroyers as the standard guard
ship then you need 43.8 Teracredit per year to maintain them. The Imperial
budget for naval ships (regular, colonial, and planetary) amounts to 4500
Teracredits. So 600,000 of those ships would cost less than 1% of the budget.
Not very much less, I admit (0.97% actually), but then, you wouldn't need to
guard those systems with a planetary navy of their own and you wouldn't need
1000 T ships (pirates are mostly clvilian ships, so 400 T patrol ships should
be able to handle them, especially if they hunt in packs).

OK, I know that you don't think that the Imperium would have 600,000
destroyers. Well, I agree with you there. But they will have other
ships instead, and a single carrier can do the work of an entire
squadron. And I don't for a moment believe that the average number of
places to guard is as high as five per system. The only detailed systems
I recall with multiple settlements are high-medium and high population
systems, which would have defenses of their own.

>and I don't agree that you can take out
>enough ships to stop piracy without hurting defense.

And yet that is canon too. According to _Fighting Ships_ the Imperial Navy
can afford to split up _battle_ squadrons for individual deployment in
peacetime. They can certainly afford to split up cruiser squadrons too.

>(For example, the number of escorts you need in wartime is a fraction of
>what you need to safeguard every ship everwhere, since the point of
>convoys is to concentrate ships to make them easier to defend).

Most convoys in Traveller would consist of a squadron of ships at each
point of the trade route. Which is exactly what you need to protect 
ships from pirates in peacetime.

>My disagreement is unchanged.

Oh, that goes without saying.

>>We know how the Imperium treats piracy. They patrol against pirates and even
>>employ strike forces to replace governments that are found to support them.
> 
>Anti-piracy messages (including many of yours) have included assumption
>about the utility of Gas Giants, whether you would have a regulated jump
>point, whether transponders would make ship identification easy and
>certain, wether all ships would be tracked on all worlds, etc. These are
>all in dispute and are not cannon.

I'd better restate my position about transponders and tracking of ships,
just to keep the record straight: 

IMO fake transponders are difficult, but possible and a ship has an
excellent chance of avoiding identification as long as it keep its
distance. What is very, very difficult is to avoid identification if
you let an inspector aboard your ship -- which is something you RISK 
every time you set down in a starport. As for keeping track of all
ships on all worlds, I don't believe that for a moment. I do believe
you can easily know of MOST ships within several score parsecs and
also that the ships that you don't recognize are the ones you  will
single out for attention.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:34:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- the new era

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
>I've always liked to use some of these plot devices:1) Ship supplied by a
>*unnamed* corporation - they wish the PCs to prey on one of their competitors
>[either a direct competitor in shipping, or the shipping lines supplying their
>competitor], but not so exclusively that the finger points at them.  Another
>ploy is to make using free traders unreliable enough to shift some more
>trade to the major shipping lines.

This is war rather than piracy unless the corporation insists that the pirate
ship makes a profit.

>2) An *unnamed* stellar government supplies the ship and a list of planets to
>hit - purpose is to draw off system coverage from a planet (not on the list)
>so that some covert insertion can be made (this is unknown to the PCs).

This is not piracy, it's an espionage operation.
 
>3) PC is a noble with some rather large debts to clear - or his family will
>lose their home and their titles.

If the debts are bigger than the value of a ship that has a chance on the
pirate trail then he is going to be one busy little pirate.

>4) PC is scion of a merchant house desparate for money to support it's
>operations (just until the economy turns around).
>5) PC is a member of a rebellious anti-Imperial element on a planet - ship
>is a way to supply money for their cause and strike against the Imperium.

All of these explains how the pirate crew got their ship. Well and good.
None of them are any good unless the pirate can make enough money on
pirating to cover his expenses. But can he? I doubt it.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: 02 Nov 1997 03:47:04 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover

>	A little something that I did up with the latest CSC.  Rob, if IG
>isn't paying attention to this, it must be because they have rocks in their
>heads.

Far be it for me to speculate on their cranial geology, but it would be
impolite to contradict you :-)


>Vacuum Rover (small) (TL10)
>Designed by Robert Prior

Much as I appreciate the credit, you should take the 'blame' for these
designs yourself.  The "Preferences" command will let you enter your name as
the default designer, while the "Basic Specifications" command will let you
enter your name for an individual vehicle (assuming you forgot to change the
preferences).


Would you mind it if I added your designs to the library at
<<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>? 
Just email me the html files and I'll upload them.

------------------------------

Date: 02 Nov 1997 03:56:57 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: A modest CSC proposal

>	It just occurred to me that CSC could really benefit from an
>"Accomodations" dialog box: one that allowed you to add SSDS/FF&S-standard
>Low Berths, ELB's, Bunks, Small Staterooms, Large Staterooms, and so forth.
>It'd be a nice touch for the big long-haul multi-passenger vehicles; as it
>is, I just add a couple of roomy seats per crewmember to simulate bunkage.

I was kinda saving this for FFS2, the program I'm currently working on.  It's
proving to be a bit of a monster, mainly because I _hate_ having to throw
away data files because I forgot to include a field (and I also hate having
to back-support piles of old data formats).  But one day...

<POLITICAL MODE ON>

I'm kinda thinkin' of making this one "political-action-ware".  All those who
bombard the Ontario government with requests for laws that don't place
ministerial regulations above judicial review get free lifetime support...  

OK, maybe I've been folding flyers a bit too long, but Bill 160, which
includes clauses that state that any ministerial directive or direction shall
have the force of law and shall not be subject to review or challenge in the
courts, and which explicitly renders the ministry not liable for any
consequences of these directive or direction, really needs rewriting.  Or
something.  

And to add insult to injury, I've now got Harris' commercials stuck in my B5
episodes, so I'm gonna get reminded of this for years.  $210,000 in lost
income to switch from engineering to teaching, and that maternal copulating,
penile osculating illegitimate offspring of a syphilitic mongoose has the
nerve to say I'm on strike and risking losing my house because I want more
money and because I'm afraid of working more than 60 hours a week!!!

<POLITICAL MODE OFF>

------------------------------

Date: 02 Nov 1997 04:36:13 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Madness: Big Blue Machine (TL8)

Big Blue Machine (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     200.00 displacement ton wedge;  1717 tonnes;  MCr 35.2
Chassis:
     2800 kL wedge (43 m long x 17 m wide x 11 m high);  Structure: 28.8
tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick, sealed to 1 atm, 4
armour rating
     
Performance:
     4.29 MW TL1 Rowers power plant;  Fuel: 514 kL of food (514 tonnes), 600
hours supply
     Propulsion System: 4.00 MW legs; Maximum Speed: 1 km/h; 
Range: 603 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, premier, 21 cabinet ministers, 94 backbenchers; 
117 crew stations with ejection seats;  200 roomy ejection  passenger seats
     Standard life support, waste handling and shower facilities; Airlocks:
10 custom
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Water Cannon-6                  1         Very Short     1       40     
  coaxialturret
Communications:
     Regional Jammer (10 W, TL8, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, recreation space, wet bar
     Safety Features: anti-hijack system
     Construction Equipment: blade can move 800 kL per hour, shovel can dig
40 m deep and excavate 80.0 kL per hour
     166 kL of cargo space

A prototypical political machine, the Big Blue Machine favours internal logic
over real-world sense. 

Hordes of poorly-paid peons keep the machine in motion, using legs to trample
any signs of opposition. The chassis, of course, is a wedge (thin end, for
the insertion of), armoured and sealed against outside influences. The crew
and their staff (passengers) are provided with ejection seats with golden
parachutes, the cost of which is not included in the official statistics.
While living inside the Machine, all life support needs are provided, as well
as full sanitary facilities (which also clean money). Entertainment
facilities and recreation space make the members' stay a pleasant one. No
communications facilities are necessary, although a jammer is used to
disruption communications in the vicinity of the machine. No sensors are
needed whatsoever, as nothing that happens outside the machine is important.
A large blade is useful for bulldozing measures through the legislature,
while a large shovel is useful for slinging fecal matter and digging in
heels. 

The optional turret mounts a water cannon for breaking up special interest
groups (any group of three or more opponents).


A bit of insanity, I'll admit.  But then, insanity may be the only rational
response to irrational situations. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 00:55:33 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Maligning List (TML)

You take off for a week on business and see what you miss...

   BTW, in case someone replies to this and I don't respond for a while,
I'll be out of commo range again most of next week too, finally settling
back in to the computer chair regularly again this coming Friday.

Douglas E. Berry writes:

>Leroy has dug up the grease spot that used to be horse.  Lovely.

   Since it is impossible for Leroy to admit defeat, should you really
be surprised?

   I really don't have much more to say on this thread, except to thank
those you who stepped up and gave Leroy "what for".  His own comments
once again are his own worst enemy.

>I don't know what list you are reading, but the TML I'm on has intense
>debates about everything Traveller, a little silliness, and a core group of
>people who have grown to be friends.

   OK, one more thing: this is probably the best short "what TML is all
about" I've ever read.

   Now, as for this comment...

>TNE was like the New Coke of RPGs.  Take an
>established winner and screw with it.  T4 is Coke Classic.

   Your first analogy doesn't quite hold up, because MegaTraveller
wasn't an established winner.  GDW's sales figures simply don't support
your contention.  Also, TNE wasn't an attempt to "screw" with
MegaTraveller, it was conceived of as a fresh start--something that
would correct the perceived mistakes made during the MT era by
"reinventing" the game.  I say "reinventing", because the changes made
consisted moving to in-house production of products, advancing the
storyline 70 years (and in doing so, bringing the game down to a level
where the player characters could influence the plot), and the
establishment of the so-called "house rules" (interesting side note:
IIRC, T:2000 was outselling Traveller at the time that TNE was in the
development stages, this might explain why the lean toward a more
T:2000-like rule set).  Nothing that was done was a particularly novel
concept, with the exception of some of the design sequences in FF&S.

   "T4" is what would happen if Coca-Cola went out of business, and some
20 years later, Microsoft (or some other company looking to diversify)
attempted to recreate Coke without the secret formula.  They may be able
to create a new "Coca-Cola" subsidary, and hire a bunch of people who
know the soft drink business to run it (maybe even some of the people
who worked for Coca-Cola all those years ago), but what ultimately comes
out of the bottling plant in a Coke bottle may not taste like Coke.  

   "T4" not only doesn't look like classic Traveller, IMHO and the
opinion of many others, doesn't taste like it.  Continuing the analogy,
this is not to say that "T4" is therefore swill water or skunk piss,
just that either you like this new flavor or you don't.  If in some way
it reminds you of the original, then fine IG has a selling point with
you.  But "T4" is not classic Traveller, anymore than a 1997 Dodge Viper
is a 1963 Corvette.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2045
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 2 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2046



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: UH?
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
"Theft"?
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Piracy -- the new era
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Crunch Gun
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2044
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)
Re: Theft and whoah now.
Traveller, of all flavours.
Re: CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover
Re: Theft and whoah now.
Re: Theft and whoah now.
CSC Abuse; TL-7 Pogo Stick
Re: Ten Essential Books (was: Re: Ten Essential Authors)
Sayat NPCs
Jet Bong (TL 10)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:16:33 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: UH?

Leonard Erickson writes: 

>> I don't know how to break this to you folks, but... we had baseball 
>> here _first_.  It was played for many years in Derby, England;
>> indeed, until this autumn Derby County F.C. played at a ground called 
>> the Baseball Ground, 'cause -- you guessed it -- it's where baseball 
>> used to be played.  A looong time ago.
>
>Well, baseball dates back to before the US Civil War, so I don't know
>if that counts as "a looong time ago".

   I know I said I'd try to address less history topics but...

   Baseball gets its start in the US in the 1850s as a varient of
something called "rounders", which I believe is a British game.  Both
sides in the American Civil War played baseball when they had spare time
time between campaigns (in other words before US Grant got control of
the Union Army  :-)  ).  Abner Doubleday (a Union general) is credited
in folklore with inventing it at Cooperstown, New York.  Today of course
we know that he didn't invent it, but he was responsible for helping to
standardize the rules of the game, and therefore deserves at least some
credit.

   The first professional baseball team took the field in Cincinnati,
Ohio.  The Cincinnati Red Legs (the name was shortened to 'Reds' many
years later) were organized in 1868.  The last professional baseball
team seems destined to play sometime around 2015 or 2020 unless the
owners and players manage to destroy the professional game before then.  

   I don't know how professional sports are doing in Europe and
elsewhere about now, but here in the US player salaries and owner's
greed are pretty much out of control in most sports.  Professional
baseball however is the most unhealthy here.  :-(

ObTrav: This of course begs several questions: what sports will be
around 3000+ years from now?  Will professional sports exist?  What
would professional athletes make?  are they the celebrities they are
now?  Remember, it takes at least a week to get scores on a game...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:38:50 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>Finally, why would a cruiser squadron in Glimmern Deep need Corridor
>ship data?

It wouldn't. Now let me ask you one in return: How many ships do you think
will make it from Glimmern Deep (whereever that may be) to Corridor without
being detected and registered by a navy patrol? (Remember that I'm
postulating a picket in each system with anything worth plundering).
And with navy couriers going at jump-6 and X-boats at jump-4, how many
of them do you think would outrun their own data? And don't you think a
patrol would find it passing strange when a ship does manage it?
 
>Keep the information local, and updated locally.  It makes more sense.

I agree. Your own sector and all adjacent sectors would do the trick. Or
just all systems within 40 parsecs. Any ship that manages to travel 40
parsecs without having to identify itself to anyone would definitely be
a rare bird.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:49:03 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: "Theft"?

Loren Wiseman writes:

>> The "whining" on the GDW beta refers the "theft" of the cruch gun,
>> etc.
>
>And I thought the days of GDW being accused of theft were 
>gone...sigh...

   Funny, when the Ithklur turned up in RCES Equipment Guide with 5.5mm
gauss weapons after I had submitted some similar 5.5mm designs for
publication as RC firearms I didn't whine.  I thought of it as a
*compliment*.  I figured that I at least served as a source of
inspiration.

   As I recall, a number of people were working simultaneously at the
time with FF&S trying to come up with a "bullet thrower" that would stop
armored troops.  I could easily see where both Loren and GDW-Beta would
have arrived at a large caliber CPR gun that used ETC cartridges
*without* anyone stealing anything from anybody.

   FYI: Those of you who have TTC #12 saw my ultimate revision of the
original 5.5mm gauss weapons I developed for the RCES Equipment Guide in
the form of the Terran Republic's 5.3mm gauss weapon series.  The
assault rifle version turned out to be very similar in terms of weight
and ammo capacity to the AK-47, which it was modelled after.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 00:22:06 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 11/01/97 at 09:16 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
said:

>>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
>>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?

>I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
>haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
>intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part
>of it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.

Ok, I got the DOS version of Executor and installed it. It seems to run OK,
but when I went to Rob's site and grabbed his CSC program I couldn't get
Executor to recognize that I'd gotten the file.  CSC is in a binhexed file,
and I know I have to expand it, but I couldn't find any sign of the Binhex
program (or the Util folder) in the System folder.

How did you get Executor to see CSC?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 23:58:48 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy -- the new era

>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:34:47 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Piracy -- the new era
....
>All of these explains how the pirate crew got their ship. Well and good.
>None of them are any good unless the pirate can make enough money on
>pirating to cover his expenses. But can he? I doubt it.

Hello,
  Given the minimum administrative window assumed for the vast majority
of (peacetime, intra-Imperium) canon adventures, I think that the case
outlined for the armed merchant pirate still holds if the purpose of
their pirating a _ship_ is to get clear and sell it for a large portion
of its' value at some later point. OTOH, if they somehow wish to repeat
the operation at intervals under those same conditions, I'd recommend
Russian Roulette instead, as being safer.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:58:30 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys

SWMego@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-11-01 00:38:50 EST, you write:
> 
> > All Snapshot does is assign "action points" to every action a PC can
> >  take.  If you want to move, it's 1 AP per square (squares are 1.5 meter
> >  grid).  If you want to fire your weapon, it's 4 AP's to fire a
> >  revolver--more AP's are required if you want to fire an automatic
> >  weapon.
> 
> Is the AP determind by the DEX and END? Is it the sum of the two?
> 
> Derek...

Yes.  In Snapshot, a character can spend a total amount of AP's equal to
Dex + End.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 02:16:25 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

On 11/01/97 at 11:33 PM,  Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>>>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's
>>>>a sort of blaster built into a prosthetic penis. The bad guys blackmail

>>Was the name of this story "The Boxer", by any chance?

>Pretty close.  It was called "The Pugilist", I believe.  You know, the
>Roman boxers...

Right! Right! Now I remember.  "The Boxer" was Simon and Garfunkle, "The
Pugilist" was Poul Anderson...got to keep them straight. ;->

I hadn't thought about that story in 20 years, but when people started
discussing the "Pelvic Special" it came right back.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:55:39 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Crunch Gun

At 12:29 AM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:58:52, TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> wrote:
>>The "whining" on the GDW beta refers the "theft" of the cruch gun, etc.
>
>WHOA, now!  I'd like to point out that the "Crunch Gun" was _NOT_ stolen,
Looks to me like the russian in WW2 had it first
but that what the Crunch Gun looks like to me

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 03:00:07 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2044

At 09:32 PM 11/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:16:12 -0500
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
>Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Saturday, November 01, 1997 5:40 PM
>Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes
>
>>On 11/01/97 at 09:29 AM,  Andy Holzricher <jhereg@southwind.net> said:
>>>This info is on very little test but...  I downloaded executor from ARDI.
>>>Installed it and downloaded CSC.  It runs and appears to work fine.  It
>>>looks like we can run CSC and there might be hope for metator.
>>
>>More information, please!
>>
>>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
>>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
>>
>>Eris
>
>Eris,
>
>I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
>haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
>intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part of
>it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.
>
>Mike Peters
>Letterworks@Comten.com

It prints fine for me.  I have designed a couple of vehicles, saved and
printed them.  I was impressed with how well it works.  Haven't had a crash
or lockup yet.

											Andy Holzrichter

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 02:27:26 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)

At 01:58 AM 11/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>SWMego@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 97-11-01 00:38:50 EST, you write:
>> 
>> > All Snapshot does is assign "action points" to every action a PC can
>> >  take.  If you want to move, it's 1 AP per square (squares are 1.5 meter
>> >  grid).  If you want to fire your weapon, it's 4 AP's to fire a
>> >  revolver--more AP's are required if you want to fire an automatic
>> >  weapon.
>> 
>> Is the AP determind by the DEX and END? Is it the sum of the two?
>> 
>> Derek...
>
>Yes.  In Snapshot, a character can spend a total amount of AP's equal to
>Dex + End.
>
>Kenneth.
>
>
I just found a .Doc file that has Snapshot converted to TNE
this look like somthing to spice up the game

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:25:50 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Theft and whoah now.

>If half-baked accusations and innuendo based on skimming parts of message 
>threads is what I get for making an archive of the GDW-Beta list available, 
>then I think it's time to take that archive down.  It's a part of
Traveller's 
>and T:TNE's history, but it appears that it's outlived its usefulness.  One
>incident like this was too many.

I've been severely misunderstood on this point.  I didn't mean to imply in
any way that GDW or anyone else stole the crunch gun.  I did not skim the
threads, but read them all and quite thoroughly before this post.  I
understand exactly what happened.  That's why i put the word theft in quotes.
I should have clarified and for that I apologize to the entire list and to
Loren in particular.  In My Opinion there was a great deal of whining in
response to the mix up that didn't give credit to the author of that weapon.
That was my point.  Look through the record yourself, but it definately has
the tone of whining to me.  Don't deprive other Travellers of the archive
because of this misunderstanding.

>>I simply endured a few too many comments and ripped that post out in haste.
>Some friendly advice: I can't think of a single occasion where I've sent a
>post in haste or anger where my words improved things.  In situations like
>this, wait a few hours or a day and re-read your post.  If it still seems
>reasonable and relevant, send it.  If not, forward it to the trashcan.
>You'd be surprised how many flames start from the careless posting of
>unintentionally-incendiary material.

Only my first post on this thread was in haste.  The 2nd was very well
thought out.  I stand by BOTH posts and would repeat them again (though i
would clarify on the "theft" issue).
Just FYI, but I've recieved many a comment in praise of my vocalizing a
defense.  I've heard from others that they percieved the same thing i did.
Attack and no defense.  I don't want nor expect anyone to reply to my every
TNE post or even any TNE related post. 

Happy Travelling

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:07:35 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Traveller, of all flavours.

I bought CT when I was a kid, played about with the big guns from
mercenary, loved it. But for one other game out then (Runequest second
edition) CT was the best game there was, bar none. I played both these
games for years and years. I still play RQ II.

I refer to my CT supplements, read library data from them, even collect the
ones I missed getting when I can find them. CT was great! But the system
was a product of its time. Every supplement brought in a new mechanic or
target roll for a different task. Naive and bitty, I'd say the system was.
Enough so that I experimented with other rules - especially for combat -
and thus established my penchant for fidfdling with game rules. I still use
CT's background material, and I'd play Chamax Plague, Twilight's Peak (THE
Traveller adventure), or Death Station tomorrow. A friend of mine held a
birthday celebration recently by running Research Station Gamma - the first
Traveller he ever did. CT was great! But the system didn't really keep up
with the increasing sophistication demanded by the players.

I missed much of the Megatraveller period, since I was in my 'If I want to
play it, I'll write it!' period. 
I got the rules, and now collect back material when I can get it. Why?
Because the Traveller background was further developed by MT, and I want to
know what I missed. I want to know about COACC and suchlike.  Until T4 came
out, we played MT regularly.

Then TNE came along and I got involved. sure, there were flaws. I never
really bothered about them, I just played the game. The opportunities were
there for three guys in a scout/courier to really make a difference. I ran
TNE right up until T4 came out, I still like (most things about) the
setting, and occasionally refer to my TNE material. 

Then T4 arrived. The system is flexible enough that I can forget the rules
and just run the game. The setting is interesting. Product support is good
(I haven't bought all the supplements, just most). Now both our Traveller
GMs run T4 for compatibility, and because it 'feels' like the original
style. The mechanics have moved on, the game has greater sophistication,
but it's Classic Traveller 20 years on. 

That's my choice. I decided to play T4. But the others are all still valid
- - I'd play any of them quite happily, and have. What is important to me is
Traveller. You can hang any rules you like on it (but T4 has the most
'original Traveller' feeling). What I want is the background, the 'world'. 

We all play in this 'world', whatever rules we use. So if you happen to be
a die-hard TNE or unrepentant CT fan, that's great! You'll not get any
grief from me. To those who want to bash TNE or whatever, I have to say:
TNE, MT and CT are now Past Tense as far as products go. They still have
fans, but the games themselves are history. What is the point of tearing,
say, MT apart? It's done, written down and out of print. It can't be
changed.

T4 can be changed, so why not concentrate on shaping the current universe?
And don't try to show the TNE etc players the 'error of their ways'. They
are, after all, *playing Traveller*. Unlike the great hordes of gamers who
think that Vampire The Condescending RPG system or whatever is the ultimate
game.

MJD. (Ranting again. Sorry.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:27:09 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CSC: TL-10 Vacuum Rover

Rob Prior wrote:

>
>>	A little something that I did up with the latest CSC.  Rob, if IG
>>isn't paying attention to this, it must be because they have rocks in their
>>heads.
>
>Far be it for me to speculate on their cranial geology, but it would be
>impolite to contradict you :-)


	Great big rocks!  I mean it only allows GM's to design just about
any kind of vehicle they need and have it ready for play in about 15
minutes (from a non-grav pogo stick to an orbital battle station)...


>
>
>>Vacuum Rover (small) (TL10)
>>Designed by Robert Prior
>
>Much as I appreciate the credit, you should take the 'blame' for these
>designs yourself.  The "Preferences" command will let you enter your name as
>the default designer, while the "Basic Specifications" command will let you
>enter your name for an individual vehicle (assuming you forgot to change the
>preferences).


	Wups, forgot to fix that one...  what with all these upgrades
coming through the pipe I missed that.  Will correct.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 07:12:00 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Theft and whoah now.

Please forgive my ignorance, but just what the heck is this "crunch gun"
I keep hearing about?  Sounds to me like something Captain Crunch might
use against the "soggies".
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 09:18:13 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Theft and whoah now.

At 07:12 am 11/02/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Please forgive my ignorance, but just what the heck is this "crunch gun"
>I keep hearing about?  Sounds to me like something Captain Crunch might
>use against the "soggies".

	The "Crunch Gun" is a 14.5mm Anti-Armor Rifle describe in the "Path Of
Tears" TNE sourcebook for the Reformation Coalition. Designed to be able to
penetrate even battle dress, it was originally sold by the Guild of Free
Merchants to various dictatorships to make life miserable for RCES teams.

	In Real Life, the Crunch Gun was designed using FF&S by Guy Garnett, and
GDW was given permission to use it in their supplements. Due to a mix-up,
he wasn't credit in one of them. However, he's stated that was straightened
out to his satisfaction.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:38:04 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: CSC Abuse; TL-7 Pogo Stick

Pogo Stick (TL7)
Designed by R.D.Elliott

Summary:
     0.01 displacement ton needle;  115 kg;  Cr 381
Chassis:
     140 L needle (1.9 m long x 27 cm wide x 27 cm high);  Structure: 8.48
kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.40 cm thick, 1 armour rating

Performance:

     Propulsion System: 10.00 kW leg; Maximum Speed: 0 km/h;
Agility: +1DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.

	A novelty vehicle, more of a toy than anything else, the Ancient
Terran Pogo stick lacks any sort of power plant, relying upon the rider's
leg power to achieve short (>1m) hops.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:12:31 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ten Essential Books (was: Re: Ten Essential Authors)

Both of these are lists that change from day-to-day.  It's a mix of
people I like for their writing and people who aren't such good authors
IMO but make up for it in the ideas department.  If you added fantasy,
the list would change significantly.

Authors:
        Isaac Asimov
        James Blish
        David Brin
        Lois McMaster Bujold
        Philip K. Dick
        Robert A. Heinlein
        Ursula LeGuin
        Larry Niven
        Brian M. Stableford
        James White

Books:
        Barrayar (Bujold)
        Cat's Cradle (Kurt Vonnegut)
        Dark Inferno (White)
        The Fountains of Paradise (Arthur C. Clarke)
        The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (Heinlein)
        Snow Crash (Neal Stephenson)
        The Space Merchants (Frederik Pohl & C.M. Kornbluth)
        Brightness Reef (Brin)
        The Witches of Karres (Schmitz)
        The Word for World is Forest (LeGuin)

I've restricted this to one book per author, otherwise Heinlein would
displace a couple more...
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:07:25 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Sayat NPCs

The crew of the Gelektelk=EAkuttin, a small exploratory vessel operating
towards Imperial space, presents as many unjust stereotypes of the Sayat as
one could ask for.  The following individuals are offered for consideration
and adaptation as desired.

- -----------------------

Jolnurkalar ("Jolly") 5B7AD?, age 30.  Intellectually-inclined, curious and
prying even by Sayat standards, infuriatingly optimistic and cheery, petite
and hyperactive.  Knowledgable in chemistry, biology, and medicine;
practical skills in starship engineering, sensor operations, reconaissance
and surveying.  Bubbly personality notwithstanding, she has no compunctions
whatsoever about conducting invasive experimentation and vivisection upon
unwilling alien sophonts.  Characteristic lines: "I wonder..."  "So that's
what it looks like inside!"  "Well, we'll just have to come up with a
better idea next time."  "Oooh!  What a silly little organism!"

Tunngardaya ("the Tongue") 687BA?, age 38.  Specialist in alien contact and
diplomacy; formal, suave, perceptive, suspicious, impatient.  Also deeply
cynical, devious, treacherous, and paranoid, understanding better than her
colleagues just what a tiny insignificance the Concourse is compared to the
rest of known space.  Weak telepathic ability.  Skills such as liaison,
carousing, streetwise, forgery, admin, legal, linguistics, vehicles, ship's
gunnery, forward observer.  Speaks Galanglic most fluently of the group,
and is generally recognized as "the captain" by Imperials.  Spends most of
jump-time in cold sleep out of boredom.  Sexually predatory towards
non-Sayat humans, but afterwards is wracked by shame and self-disgust, in
turn leading to heavy drinking binges.  Characteristic lines:  "Your
fascinating suggestion certainly merits serious reconsideration."  "I
cannot agree with you enough."  "Would you by any chance care to see a
trick I can do with my tongue?"

Hurkiptan ("Herc") B5D64?, age 30.  A hulking, clumsy, musclebound lug with
a permanent scowl.  Received training in psionically-enhanced strength and
endurance for added levels of menace.  Actually rather sweet-tempered and
patient.  Skilled mechanic, general jack-of-all-trades, "steward" type
skills (alien cuisine being something of a hobby); also extensively trained
in demolitions, heavy weapons, personal combat, and security operations.
Enjoys trying new effervescent beverages, particularly beers; fond of
belching contests in starport bars and diplomatic receptions.
Characteristic lines:  "Huh."  "Betcha that'll blow up real good."  "Just
lemme see that, willya?"

Nyuungaptan ("the Nun") 77799? (?), age unknown (but fairly junior).  A
Servitor in Silence;  mysterious and cryptic, communicating only by sign
language and email.  Seems to float a few centimeters above the deck or
ground, but it's not certain whether this is gravitic technology or psionic
levitation.  Never seen except in all-concealing black robes and ominously
blank mirror-surfaced face mask.  May be able to psionically teleport;
certainly tends to pop out of the woodwork unexpectedly.  A highly skilled
computer scientist, electronics technician and spacecraft pilot, with no
known outside interests or hobbies.  Keeps to herself more than the rest of
the group; spends much time meditating on jumpspace or old vaccuum tubes,
and otherwise lurking in dark corners.  Overall, pretty spooky.
Characteristic lines: "In a certain sense."  "I have no response to that."
"Ah."

Kooyelen ("the Kid") 57785?, age 17.  A teenage conscript, just out of
"basic training" and thrilled to bits about this incredibly exciting
assignment.  Unstoppably enthusiastic, frighteningly innocent.  Still
physically maturing, shares information all too readily about the progress
of her menarche and breast growth; fusses constantly over zits and
blackheads.  Occasionally violently homesick.  Some psionic talent, under
training by Redeye; has skills only in gun combat, vacc suit;
default/zero-level computer and zero-g combat.  A native of one of the
Sayat space habitats, she's the most at home of the group in vaccuum/zero-g
environments.  Characteristic lines:  "But WHY?"  "Can I {come along, try
that, have some} too?  Pleeeeeze?"  "WOW!"

Redeye (576CD?), age c.100.  A Slimy; amiable, chatty, courteous, helpful;
hideous beyond belief.  Has bright red blotch around one bulbous eye,
providing his Sayat and Galanglic names.  Hissing, foggy, damp, sulphurous;
slurps around in a robotic exoskeletal frame and a not-concealing-enough
"drip robe".  Stays out of sight as much as possible out of consideration
for delicate barbarian sensibilities (Sayat regard its appearance as
perfectly normal and acceptable).  Possibly the least prejudiced and
"superstitious" of the team; the closest approximation to a voice of
reason.  Scientific specialty is in mathematics, astronomy and physics;
practical skills in starship engineering, gravitics, jumpspace navigation.
Strong psionic ability and many talents.  Characteristic lines:  "Oh,
indubitably."  "Why, that's [not] a very helpful contribution."  "And how
did that make you feel?"  "Sorry to trouble you, but please do stand back
while I vent my mucus compressor."

"Puddles" (23243?), age 4.  A Vargr cub rescued from Bad Aliens someplace
and adopted by the group.  Toilet training has been problematic, hence the
name.  Teething is now the issue of the day.  As a little boy-puppy being
raised by human women, he's understandably a tad bit confused.  But very
cute and totally adorable.  Refers to all bipeds and most computers as
"mommy."  Characteristic lines:  "Yap-yap-yap!"  "Uh-oh."

- --------------

Like most extra-Concourse starship crews, that of the Gelektelk=EAkuttin are
all members of the same nest; within the Concourse this not as common.
There is no "leader" or "commander" of the group -- though Tunngardaya
generally handles dealings with aliens and barter, giving her a certain
amount of power, and Redeye's seniority and level-headedness are accorded a
degree of respect, sometimes.  Sayat have only a single name; Slimies tend
to go by a nickname alone or adopt a Sayat name.  Skill descriptions, ages,
and UPPs have been given only as guidelines; social status is not
particularly relevant to the Sayat.  Note that all Sayat have had at least
minimal military training as teenagers.

The Gelektelk=EAkuttin is in the 200-300 dT range, designed with Sayat
technology (i.e., low-fuel/massive-capacitor jump drive in a heavily
armored spherical hull bristling with sensors, ECM, and stealthing gear,
with a cramped, warrenlike, unevenly heated, dimly lit crew compartment).

=46or the full scoop on the Sayat, go to _Freelance Traveller_ at:
          <http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:31:58 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Jet Bong (TL 10)

To heck with the Fifth Prime Directive of T4, I say!  Yes!  To HECK!
- -----------------------------------

Jet Bong (TL10)

Summary:
     0.60 displacement ton open frame;  5.80 tonnes;  kCr 145
Chassis:
     8.40 kL open frame (8.8 m long x 1.3 m wide x 1.3 m high);  Structure:
444
     kg of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.09 cm thick, sealed to 10
atm, 4
     armour rating

Performance:
     1.00 MW TL8 Turbine, MHD power plant, water-cooled;  Fuel: 3.01 kL of
     high-grade hcarb (3.01 tonnes), 30 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.00 MW high performance watercraft;
     Maximum Speed: 109 km/h; Range: 3260 km;  Agility: +2DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: 10 external passenger seats; no crew
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, wet bar, kitchen for 4 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     253 L of cargo space

The Jet Bong uses a powerful modern turbofan to inject large quantities of
superheated drug drug into the bloodstreams of up to ten simultaneous
participants.  A built-in kitchen and bar are provided for resulting
munchies, and an excellent multimedia system provides really trippy music
and laser light shows.  Internal supplies of fuel and pharmaceutical are
sufficient to last for thirty hours of full-capacity utilization.

Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2046
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, November 3 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2047



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Imperial Nobility
Re: Raiders vs. pirates
Re: Piracy---the new era!
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: WHOA, Now!
MT spreadsheets
Thanks...
Thanks...
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
RE: Number of ships in the Imperium
Re: UH?
Jumpspace Physics
FF&S2 Spreadsheet Available
Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements
Who invented what
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)
Re: Piracy -- the new era!
MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)
Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:50:34 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Nobility

Hans,

I would be very interested in a copy of your article.

thanks in advance,

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Hans Rancke-Madsen[SMTP:rancke@diku.dk]
Sent: 	Saturday, November 01, 1997 7:12 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Imperial Nobility

Rob Prior writes:
>There was an excellent essay on the Imperial Nobility in 1100 published in
>Travellers Digest #9.  My copy in currently inaccessible, but I'm certain
>someone out there can briefly recapitulate.

If you can get hold of _THE Traveller Chronicle_ #9 I had an article about
the nobility in that issue. I summarized it in a message to the list a
couple of months ago, so I won't do it again just yet (to summarize the
summary: The Traveller social system fails to account for non-imperial
nobles and I provide an alternate system), but if anyone is interested I
could send him a copy by e-mail.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:34:54 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs. pirates

[Responding to Hans' mischaracterization of my remarks.  I'm not sure
what the list needs is what essentially is a troll that requires
someone to revisit issues that have been beaten into the ground
or allow someone with a different point of view to put words in
ones mouth.]

Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:34:26 +0100 (MET),  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Still, it is difficult to imagine any military mind _not_ puttting arms
>on any military ship and also to design a ship with only one possible
>function.

The military does this all the time.

>Anyway, armed or not, the scouts that David believes in will not be able
>to help against pirates. What David evidently dosen't believe in are all
>the OTHER small ships, like the destroyers and escorts from FS -- or the
>cruisers and battleships that FS also states are deployed away from the
>fleets in peacetime, for that matter.

This is simply not true.  What a I don't believe in are the numbers
of ships necessary to stop piracy (or even what numbers are necessary
for that purpose), or the awful (for military purposes) deployement
of distributing ships evenly accross all worlds, in all systems, with
significant traffic.

>I must say that I'd love to play
>against David in a TCS campaign, at least if he promises to build and
>deploy his fleet according to the principles he has proposed during this
>debate.

Sure, if you are willing to start with several ships deployed around
every world with traffic.

>Good. I'm glad we got that nailed down. So pirates use armed commercial
>ships. That means they are outgunned by navy ships of their own or even
>lower tonnage

Sure.  I have always been willing to postulate that a Kuninuir is
sufficient to deter piracy.

>Indeed, you still
>haven't explained how our weekend pirate manages to make ends meet. As
>I've pointed out before, in the Traveller universe you can make living
>carrying goods from port to port or you can move around searching for
>suitable victims. You cannot do both.

And I have pointed out that you are wrong (though maybe it would be
better if we both acknowledge that we have only pointed out what
we _think_ to be true, rather than stating our positions as truth?).
My disagreement is unchanged.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:12:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy---the new era!

Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:21:35 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Well, we already know that I don't agree that the percentage is
>>as tiny as you describe

>Sure you do, you just haven't bothered to do the math yet ;-). You said
>in another posting that you believe 12 ships are needed to safeguard a
>planet and that a system will have an average of 5 places to guard.

[Deletions].

>you need 43.8 Teracredit per year to maintain them.

 If we use the Kinunuir that you talked about when
we were posting on this (and which is close to 1000 Tons), and
taking your 10%/year (I think it will be more, but if you say
it is the "canon" number), it costs 100 MCr/yr for each ship.
That's 1200 MCr/yr (actually, I think it would be three shifts,
not two, but we will let that pass) per world or 6 TCr per
system per year.  With about a 1000 systems in the Imperium, that is
6,000 TCr/year.

>The Imperial
>budget for naval ships (regular, colonial, and planetary) amounts to 4500
>Teracredits. So 600,000 of those ships would cost less than 1% of the budget.
>Not very much less, I admit (0.97% actually)

At 6,000/year, it amounts to more than your budget.  But even if it
were 1%, that is already more than your original "minicule" amount
(as you have come up an order of magnitude from your original
0.1 %).  In any case, I feel (as I have mentioned before) this is a
sidelight since the point isn't what %'age of the budget it is,
it is what effort is justified by the losses being incured to piracy.

>>and I don't agree that you can take out
>>enough ships to stop piracy without hurting defense.

>And yet that is canon too. According to _Fighting Ships_ the Imperial Navy
>can afford to split up _battle_ squadrons for individual deployment in
>peacetime. They can certainly afford to split up cruiser squadrons too.

It depends on what you mean by "split up".  It could me distrbiuting
to the top 10% pop worlds rather than distributing equally to
ever single world with traffic.

>>(For example, the number of escorts you need in wartime is a fraction of
>>what you need to safeguard every ship everwhere, since the point of
>>convoys is to concentrate ships to make them easier to defend).

>Most convoys in Traveller would consist of a squadron of ships at each
>point of the trade route. Which is exactly what you need to protect
>ships from pirates in peacetime.

We have been through whether merchants would be wiling the pay the price
for this in peacetime as well in wartime.  My opinion on it is the same.

>I'd better restate my position about transponders and tracking of ships,
>just to keep the record straight:

[Stuff about the effictiveness of transponders....]

I don't agree for reasons I have given before (and because experience
has taught us that a system designed to stop individuals from
getting around the system never works like it is thought it would).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:37:59 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes


>On 11/01/97 at 09:16 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
>said:
>
>>>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?
What
>>>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
>
>>I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
>>haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
>>intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part
>>of it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.
>
>Ok, I got the DOS version of Executor and installed it. It seems to run OK,
>but when I went to Rob's site and grabbed his CSC program I couldn't get
>Executor to recognize that I'd gotten the file.  CSC is in a binhexed file,
>and I know I have to expand it, but I couldn't find any sign of the Binhex
>program (or the Util folder) in the System folder.
>
>How did you get Executor to see CSC?
>
>Eris
>--

Eris,
I used Winzip to expand both Metator and CSC into seperate subdirectories of
the Executor directory. Loaded up Executor. Then used the stuffit expander
program that came with executor on the CSC and Metator files.

When that was done I clicked on the fileing cabinet icon at the upper left
hand corner of the "Mac" screen. THat brought up a list of drives acros the
top row of the screen. From there I just navigated through until I found the
right subdirectory. Clicked on the program icons(s) and they ran. I don't
know if there was an easier way, since I don't know Mac's, but this worked
for me. By the way I used IE4 to download the original files, in the
Executor readme files it says something about Netscape attempting to convert
Mac files during down loads and that you need to use a hot key combination
to stop this process.

I still haven't been able to print either a CSC design or Metator file,  I
get an illegal operation error that crashes Executor when ever I try to
print. I'm using a Pentium 200 MMX processor, so I don't know if that is the
cause or the fact that my system is set up for multiple printers.

What I can do is export the files files as HTML in CSC and access them for
print that way. In Metator, however, I can only use this feature with SOME
screens. If I try to export a Complete Report, it only gives me the
Atmopheric Pressure and Hydrogaphic pressure lists? None of the other
information shows up.

A note to Rob. Executor apparently offers to bullet proof programs for this
OS. as well as a Runtime program to be added to the programs to allow them
to be run on Intell systems. I haven't looked into pricing for these
services. If you are interested in looking into this with your code let me
know, I think those of us using Evil Empire systems might be able to take up
a collection (I WOULD CERTAINLY CONTRIBUTE AFTER SEEING A TASTE OF THESE
FANTASTIC PROGRAMS!).

Also contact me by private email. I'd like to discuss what systems
requirements you'd need on an Intel box. Seems I might be able to get ahold
of an OLD machine that I might also contribute to the cause if it can do the
job. Contact me. These prorams are fantastic Traveller aids, especially
Metator! IG MUST be CRAZIER than I thought not to be interested!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 17:30:08 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: WHOA, Now!

Derek Wildstar writes:

>WHOA, now!  I'd like to point out that the "Crunch Gun" was _NOT_ stolen,
>from anyone, at any point in time.  I was the designer, and Loren Wiseman
>asked for, and recieved, my permission to print it in two T:TNE books, with
>the proviso that I get a copy of the book, and credit for the design.  Due
>to editorial slip-up at GDW, the credit was omitted from one of the books.

   Well now *that* rumor has been turned into road kill, so everyone can
relax.  Thanks for the clarification.

>If half-baked accusations and innuendo based on skimming parts of message 
>threads is what I get for making an archive of the GDW-Beta list available, 
>then I think it's time to take that archive down.  It's a part of Traveller's 
>and T:TNE's history, but it appears that it's outlived its usefulness.  One
>incident like this was too many.

   I'm sure it's a case of misunderstanding and youthful exuberance.  No
reason IMHO to shut down access.  If every Traveller resource were
removed from public viewing just because somebody didn't use it properly
this would be the Bab 5 RPG mailing list.

>>Much of my post was motivated by the fact that i saw no defense of TNE.
>
>If your posts are 'defense', I think most T:TNE fans would have appreciated
>silence.  It certainly hasn't raised my opinion of the people who play TNE,
>thankfully, my opinion of the game is unlikely to change due to your posts.

   TNE has its enemies on this list to be sure, but it also has its
allies.  Since the Virus Wars and the T-Plate vs. Heplar Wars and all
the rest were fought over and over centuries ago (by TML time), it is
best that everyone pretty much mellow out at this point.  Our friend
here perhaps wasn't aware that we've pretty well exhausted those
discussions (OK, verbal brawls).  While I keep my armor and broadsword
handy to come to TNE's defense, I see no need to conduct offensive
actions, or jump all over everyone who insists on saying an unkind word
about the game.  Those TNE fans who feel the need to be surrounded by
the "faithful" always have the TNE-RCES mailing list (subscription
instructions available upon request).

>>I simply endured a few too many comments and ripped that post out in haste.
>
>Some friendly advice: I can't think of a single occasion where I've sent a
>post in haste or anger where my words improved things.

   Many of us have too much mixed Irish and Scottish ancestry to just
hold back like that.  :-)  My policy is to save the flames for those who
really, really, deserve it, and *always* make sure I've got some
semblance of fact (or at least well informed opinion) behind me.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:20:36 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: MT spreadsheets

Does anyone have or know of some Excel spreadsheets for designing
MegaTraveller vehicles (and starships?) I would prefer spreadsheets to
software, as I would lake to make changes to the tables and some of the
design sequences.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:17:43 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Thanks...

> I'm hardly the first or only person that's happened to, and GDW is hardly
> the first or only company that's done it.  I recieved a satisfactory
apology 
> from Loren and GDW, and I consider the matter closed.

Thanks Guy...I thought I was going to have to explain yet again...you beat me
to it.

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:17:38 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Thanks...

> I'm hardly the first or only person that's happened to, and GDW is hardly
> the first or only company that's done it.  I recieved a satisfactory
apology 
> from Loren and GDW, and I consider the matter closed.

Thanks Guy...I thought I was going to have to explain yet again...you beat me
to it.

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:15:52 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Various posters who have spoken before me:

>> Subject:  Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

>>

(snip)

>>In one of Poul Anderson's stories there is a truly *sick* weapon. It's

(snip)

>>

>>>Anyway, using this weapon presents a truly *weird* picture. "He

>>>advances on you with his pants unzipped, clutching his...."

>>

>> Could be worse. It could be a pump action.

>

>I think you fired it by squeezing it....

(snip)


>Was the name of this story "The Boxer", by any chance?



  For those of you not discouraged or disgusted by the above
discussions, the story is "The Pugilist" and is part of Poul
Anderson's Psychotechnic League Cycle. I highly recommend the
entire cycle. Anderson has the knack of not needing to use
angst when depicting settings that are not at all sweetness
and light. His talent for setting atmosphere is largely
unmatched by the modern SF writers, I'm afraid...

  The Psychotechnic League was collated and collected into
several volumes of short stories about ten years ago. There
are a few novels mixed in as well. The timeline starts in a
roughly modern setting and progresses steadily through about
two hundred years before leaping forward into a spacefaring
era which finally ends with the haunting "The Horn of Time".
  As for shock value, "The Pugilist" is unusually high for
the cycle as a whole as well as for Anderson's work in general.

  I will produce for this forum a complete story list if anyone
is interested...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:21:46 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Number of ships in the Imperium

On Saturday, November 01, 1997 10:39 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen 
[SMTP:rancke@diku.dk] wrote:
> douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >
> >Finally, why would a cruiser squadron in Glimmern Deep need Corridor
> >ship data?
>
> It wouldn't. Now let me ask you one in return: How many ships do you 
think
> will make it from Glimmern Deep (whereever that may be) to Corridor 
without
> being detected and registered by a navy patrol? (Remember that I'm
> postulating a picket in each system with anything worth plundering).
> And with navy couriers going at jump-6 and X-boats at jump-4, how many
> of them do you think would outrun their own data? And don't you think a
> patrol would find it passing strange when a ship does manage it?
>
> >Keep the information local, and updated locally.  It makes more sense.
>
> I agree. Your own sector and all adjacent sectors would do the trick. Or
> just all systems within 40 parsecs. Any ship that manages to travel 40
> parsecs without having to identify itself to anyone would definitely be
> a rare bird.

Shall we agree on a registry consisting of the subsector you are in, and 
the adjacent subsectors (as a moving window) and put this debate to bed?

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:00:46 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: UH?

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > I don't know how to break this to you folks, but... we had baseball 
> > here _first_.  It was played for many years in Derby, England;
> > indeed, until this autumn Derby County F.C. played at a ground called 
> > the Baseball Ground, 'cause -- you guessed it -- it's where baseball 
> > used to be played.  A looong time ago.
> 
> Well, baseball dates back to before the US Civil War, so I don't know
> if that counts as "a looong time ago".

Yes, it does, and the two "looongs" are of similar leeength, IYSWIM.  
I would guess that Derby FC dates from late in the 19th century.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:48:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Jumpspace Physics

As I adopted the visualization of the jump bubble as a sea of liquid=20
mercury around the ship to my campaign, I thought over some "physics"=20
ragarding the Jumpspace. So lets have a look at it:

</technobabble on >

"The jump bubble seperates the Ship=B4s n-space from j-space, so the=20
different physical environments let the light be reflected at the border=20
of the two spaces. As Jumpspace belongs to physics (else we would not be=20
able to calculate it nor could we pass it), we have to consider some=20
similarities between the two spaces. The discrepancies begin on the next=20
level of physics, already known as the quantum level. We=B4ll come to this
later.

As we would come to an overheating by steady emission of radiation from=20
the fusion plant, (I will call that the "infrared catastrophe") we must=20
consider a theory called "quantized reflection", i.e. the reflected light=
=20
waves are not from the complete spectrum of EM, there are only discrete=20
frequencies (or wavelangths), evenly distributed over the spectrum that=20
can be reflected or else pass through the barrier. Now we see that some=20
frequencies in n-space and j-space can come together, so there would be=20
further possibilities to check out the physics of j-space.

This theory is good for two explanations: At first, it gets rid of the IR=
=20
catastrophe. The second is, it explains why the j-space bubble seems to=20
be a bright wall, not a dark one as it had to be, if the light from the=20
ship=B4s windows were the only source of light out there. As there is a=20
possibility for radiation to get through the barrier from outside, this=20
makes the light out there.

I will now pass to my colleague for the next theme: The probability of=20
life in jumpspace."

Excerpt from the Jumpspace Conference held on Sylea in 97.

</technobabble off>

This would even let the Disciples of the Bright Way see their Deity in=20
the waves and deformations on the Bubble Surface ...

Do you think the man who proposed that theory would have been harrassed?
:-)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:21:35 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: FF&S2 Spreadsheet Available

Version 1.0 of my FF&S spreadsheet is available...

It can be found on my web site, in the Drydock section. My Traveller web
site is:

www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

I have two versions available:
  The orginal Quattro Pro (v8) version.
  An Excel v5 version.

I do not own Excel, so I have not been able to test that one as well as the
Quattro version.

My goal is to have the spreadsheet be the most complete FF&S spacecraft
design worksheet. If you have any comments, or discover any bugs (I'm sure
there are a few) let me know...

I'm reworking my SSDS sheet and have taken it temporarily off my website -
it'll be back up after I've done some work on it.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:35:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Major Race Soft Drink Endorsements

Kenji Schwarz wrote:


>What's that soft drink with the little globes of neon gelatin floating in
>it?  Seems kinda Hiveresque to me.

I've had that before, its caled "Orbit".  Very weird stuff.  I remember it 
tasting a bit like those orange "push up" ice cream things...

then again...

this could all just be a subtile manipulation...

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:55:39 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Who invented what

> According to my encyclopedia, it is "believed to have been invented by a 
> West Point cadet...in 1839." However, it is almost certainly based on the 
> English game of rounders, which dates back to at least 1744.
>
>Now, tell me again how many countries take part in the World Series...?

And der Roossians inwented Trilicali wheat, and nuclear wessels. Let's face
it, a game that involves running and hitting things probably started in the
neolithic, except instead of bases, bats and balls, it involved sticks,
rocks and pissed off mastodons

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:13:25 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)

>I just found a .Doc file that has Snapshot converted to TNE
>this look like somthing to spice up the game

It's probably mine - it works reasonably well, but sometimes you still have
to fudge a bit to make the scene work well.

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:46:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- the new era!

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:

>What would need to change to make piracy at the frontier a hazardous, but
>potentially profitable, undertaking?  How would you set up a successful pirate?

OK. Let's see...

1) Make civilian ships cheaper, both relative to military ships and in
   absolute terms. This would make pirate ships cheaper to run and increase
   the number of potential victims.

2) Make ships cheaper to operate. Same effect as above.

3) Increase the number of places where pirates can intercept merchants. There
   are several possibilities:

   3a) Increase the number of systems without increasing the number of
       inhabited systems, thus making most merchant routes go through several
       empty systems (This would have to be combined with making civilian ships
       cheaper, otherwise transport costs would skyrocket and number of people
       able to travel plummet). One possibility would be to make the Traveller
       universe three-dimensional. If the Imperium was two or three sectors
       deep then you'd have more than a 100 times as many systems. This might
       be combined with reducing the number of agricultural planets orbiting
       red dwarfs as an added benefit.

   3b) Let incoming ships precipitate out at 1000 diameter limits instead of
       100 diameter limits. Or possibly at a random point outside 100 diameters
       and inside 1000 diameters. This should be combined with 4) below to 
       allow pirates to lurk unseen. Outgoing ships should still be able to
       jump from 100 diameters.

   3c) Allow ships to track and intercept ships in jumpspace.

4) Introduce a stealth field or cloaking device.

5) Make the number of military ships the Imperium _can_ have smaller.

   5a) Reduce the contribution of high-population worlds to military budgets.
       My own suggestion would be to halve it for pop 9 systems and halve it
       again for pop 10 planets. Even better, make it a logarithmic function.

   5b) Introduce what I have dubbed the MISS factor. MISS stands for 'Military
       Inefficiency Spending Syndrome' and refers to the (possibly mythical)
       tendency of militaries to pay more for their needs than a civilian
       company would. The MISS factor would be a factor from 1.0 and up that
       you multiplied all costs with when the military bought. Thus a navy
       with a MISS factor of 1.5 would pay 1.5 times the going rate for a
       ship (And maintenance would likewise be increased). MISS factors would
       differ from navy to navy. It would increase with the size of the budget
       and the length of time since the state had been at war with an equal
       enemy. Large agressive neighbors would reduce it, small peaceful ones
       would increase it. The Sword World navies, for example, would have
       MISS factors around 1.1 and 1.2 while the Imperium might have one of
       2 or more.
         


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:22:50 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

One of my players is working to improve her character's Strength. I'm
playing MT rules, by the way. The character is lifting weights and
attempting to use Strength at every opportunity.

I noticed something in the MT rules which I don't understand.
The task used to increase an attribute seems to use Intelligence as a
modifier. No task is actually specified but the rules imply that the
skill improvement task is used for attributes as well.

Do I have this wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that Intelligence
is a modifier on a Strength improvement roll.

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 97 11:53:01 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)

- --- Lee "DeathAdder" Neal wrote:
I just found a .Doc file that has Snapshot converted to TNE
this look like somthing to spice up the game
- --- end of quote ---
ooh! do tell! where is this to be found? I'm sure you'n I aren't the only ones
to be interested!

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 16:41:57 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Trav Cmbt Sys(Snapshot)

On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 02:27:26 -0700, Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
wrote:

>At 01:58 AM 11/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>SWMego@aol.com wrote:
>>>=20
>>> In a message dated 97-11-01 00:38:50 EST, you write:
>>>=20
>>> > All Snapshot does is assign "action points" to every action a PC =
can
>>> >  take.  If you want to move, it's 1 AP per square (squares are 1.5 =
meter
>>> >  grid).  If you want to fire your weapon, it's 4 AP's to fire a
>>> >  revolver--more AP's are required if you want to fire an automatic
>>> >  weapon.
>>>=20
>>> Is the AP determind by the DEX and END? Is it the sum of the two?
>>>=20
>>> Derek...
>>
>>Yes.  In Snapshot, a character can spend a total amount of AP's equal =
to
>>Dex + End.
>>
>>Kenneth.
>>
>I just found a .Doc file that has Snapshot converted to TNE
>this look like somthing to spice up the game

If you ask nicely, perhaps Doug Berry might be willing to send you
copy of the T4 version we are in the middle of working on (although I
believe he has all the playtesters he needs so don't hold your
breath).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

 Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2047
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, November 3 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2048



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: The March Harrier--Weapons
{Explaination] Delayed posts
Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother
Aslan Morality
re:Traveller Maligning List (TML)
Deadman's Tumble - was Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy mechanics 
Re: Cargo Handling in Traveller - reply 2
re:Cargo Handling in Traveller 
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
A tool for GM's
Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)
Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2046
Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...
Industrial Capacity Backwards
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Bilanidin Font
Starship Troopers Site

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:30:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The March Harrier--Weapons

Just over a week ago, Bruce wrote:


>Kenneth is quite right that we need a T4 starship operator's manual...
>For various reasons much of the "flavour" text got left out of FFS2, and
>there's not much of it in basic T4. Maybe T4.1 will have more.

Isn't the Naval Architect's Manual the ideal place for this - I mean, most
of the IG releases seem to be aimed at killing any market for DGP
re-releases <cynic mode definately on> so the SOpM needs to be covered
somewhere!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:19:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: {Explaination] Delayed posts

Dear all,

Some of the posts that I send in the next few days may be up to a fortnight
behind - I'll keep them to a minimum, and will try to avoid re-igniting any
flames... unfortunately, redundancy, a holiday, an LRP event I was GMing
and a new Power Mac (drool) have delayed me getting down to them... and you
are all so busy at writing those posts...

Apologies if this irritates anyone.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:43:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother

Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk> wrote a long, interesting summary of
ship building capacity in response to a previous post on Wed, 1 Oct 1997 by
Douglas <douglas@teleport.com

<snipped as it was long>

When considering shipbuilding capacity, remember that yards can build
*above* the planet's tech level - eg Regina's General Products Yard
building Kinuir Class Bathtubs.

As a related issue - what TL does the Book 2 CT starships system assume?

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:22:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Aslan Morality

In one of my recent games, the female Aslan Engineer on the good ole
Empress Nicholle got bored by the humans in the group (yet another
interminal visit to a restaurant where the human characters were flirting
at each other) so went off to chat with an Aslan Merc unit staying at the
TAS hostel.

She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....

So my question for the TML is 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual
encounters, and if so 2) would they use contraceptives.... I await your
replies with interest...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:52:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Traveller Maligning List (TML)

 On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:14:55 -0600
lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney) wrote:

>Mr. Boulton
>posted his words to the HIWG list, and has already received feedback
>from others there (mine was cross-posted for convenience) about his
>"Bad Form".

<gripe>
Personally, I find partial cross posts of discussions taking place on other
mailing lists 'bad form'. If the exchange is from another forum it is
inappropriate to reply to a different forum, whether cross-posting or not.
Keep it in personal email or on the original list, please.
</gripe>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Deadman's Tumble - was Re: Piracy

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> You have crippled the ship (victim) in 5 minutes: The easiest way to do
>> this is to kill the power plant, so no gravity... Otherwise the merchant
>> captain, knowing that the SDB is (in your argument) 85 min out puts the
>> ship in a deadmans tumble so you can't recover it.
>
>You can set the ship to spinning about any axis. But only one of them
>at once. So "tumbling" is the wrong word.

Fair point. Okay, what I specifically meant was that you induce spin in all
three axes to make the ship unapproachable.

I used 'dead man's tumble' because IIRC Hard Times uses it as a phrase to
describe a ship in such a situation.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:15:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics 

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>OTOH, it just isn't that big a ship.  I don't have my Traveller
>stuff in from of my, but it only has two turrets and can
>only bring one to bear on a single target at a time.  (And
>that one is take out in a the first shot).

FYI - from CT supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats.

Gazelle Class Close escort -
300dt+additional 100dt disposable tanks.
4 hard points carrying 2x PA barbettes and 2x Triple beam laser
Armour level 3 (if I remember my USPs right)

System Defense Boat -
400 dt armoured hull
4 hardpoints carrying 2x triple laser  and 2x triple missile
Armour level 9 (again if my memory of the USP is right)

All the rules I know from Traveller (I'm not au fait on TNE) would allow
all weapons to fire simultaneously.

So I think that the anti-piracy patrols are harder than you are allowing for.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:51:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling in Traveller - reply 2

Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu> wrote:

>In this scheme, the containers and pins take most of the load in case of
>loss of grav control.  Therefore you'd probably have containers rated
>for different g's or have a max accelleration you could pull w/ AG in
>operative.  There also would be maximums on how many containrs apart the
>ship's structural members could be.


Fair point - look at the isofreight standards and they give a rating for
the various locks - I can't remember if it is explained in the standard,
but is quite a simple FE type problem when you know the maximum mass (say
35 te and acceleration 6G?).

>Some of this is more applicable to large ships than smaller ones.
>Running a small ship with small cargos on an independant route, you
>might want access to all containers.  You may even carry small
>standardized containers packaged by the customer inside your own
>containers.

Yes - this is one of the reasons I was arguing (with others) for the
steward skill to include the Andre Norton type cargo master role.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:46:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Cargo Handling in Traveller 

Phil Kitching <Philk@btinternet.com> wrote a long post on cargo handling!

>Securing a cargo with webbing straps is okay for loose stuff and tarpaulins,
>but I have always seen Traveller cargo as containerised, with the standard
>container containing any special features (such as air con, refrigeration,
>grav, anti-grav...)

Yes - I agree - a 5dt box is around the size of an isofreight...

>Working near one of the UK's largest container ports, I noticed that a
>container is not just a box - attached to each corner is a 6" steel cube. The
>bottom of the four cubes attached to the bottom of the container each has a
>hole which locates the container securely on whatever is carrying it (the
>truck, train, whatever, has four supports - each with a dowel in the centre
>to
>locate the container).

Usually, the dowel is a kind of twistlock - it would be 'spade shaped' to
look at from one end, and is thin. Once in place it is twisted to lock the
isofreight in position. These slots are also on the top of the container to
allow lifting or stacking. Sometimes there are six on a face (I read the BS
a while ago, but can't remember that well).

I agree with your discussion on how the stacking may be done. In reality,
the containers would probably be liftable with an automated frame and
twistlocks. For an idea of how, phone BNFL's corporate publicity in
Warrington and ask for the brochure on EP1 / EP2 / EPS1 and EPS2 (They are
the drum encapsulation plants and stores and maybe called WEP and MEP now)
which use this kind of system to store stacked stillages of nuclear waste
drums!

>(Following from recent steps with aircraft containers due to bombs onboard, I
>would imagine that the containers are designed to contain quite large
>explosions without rupturing).

Possibly not - the internal bulkhead that surrounds the cargo should
contain the blast - starships are tougher than aircraft. A better analogy
would be a container ship.

>Loading and unloading by computer control would be very fast (less than 1
>minute per container).

I think that this is optimistic - isofreight tops out at about 30000 kg,
which would probably the kind of mass the lifting gear would assume, and to
avoid stressing the system (especially if it is built in the ship) you
would probably move it slowly to avoid hazard in normal conditions. Say
between 3 to 5 min a container, and this will be limited by the rate at
which the cargo handler can receive cargo.

>Without computer control, you could do it by hand if you can disengage the
>locking pins and turn off the gravity.

Or you could use manual controls on the lifting frame.

>If you can't disengage the locking pins, its a week in the shipyard
>disassembling the ship from around the containers (or at least crawling
>around
>all the access ways to get to the pins locking the containers to floor, wall
>and ceiling.

I would think that there would be either a manual way to do this *or*
access so you can cut the pins/twistlocks out.

>It would be slightly easier if the ship was not fully loaded.

Agreed.

Excellent post - I enjoyed it no end.

As an extra thought, free traders probably need some kind of unloading
equipment for those X, E and D ports they visit!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:22:01 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

>Kenji wrote:
>
>>Roderick wrote:
>	You know, the more I think about it the more I think that the Sayat
>really deserve canonization.  They're a pretty darn cool concept.

You mean you want to !Saint! these people?!?  After what *they* came up with!

How are you going to get the Pope to go along with this?!? ;)


Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:13:07 -0600
From: "Jed McCaleb" <jedm@ipa.net>
Subject: A tool for GM's

	I just wrote a program called Galaxy Builder. It is intended for GM's of
Sci-Fi rollplaying games. It generates a random section of space that you
can view in 3d. It allows you to rotate and zoom the section however you
want. You can edit all the characteristics of the stars, planets, and
moons. 
	Anyway check it out at: http://www.tform.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:27:57 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)

At 11:53 AM -0500 11/3/97, Jeffery M. Miller wrote:
>--- Lee "DeathAdder" Neal wrote:
>I just found a .Doc file that has Snapshot converted to TNE
>this look like somthing to spice up the game
>--- end of quote ---
>ooh! do tell! where is this to be found? I'm sure you'n I aren't the only ones
>to be interested!

The one I did is located at:
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/TNE/snapshot.txt

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:34:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

As a Mac user, having just fired up Executor on my work PeeCee, let me
just say <Blech!> 

It will run CSC, granted, but please, Executor is to a Mac as an MRE
instant coffee packet is to fresh ground fresh brewed.

It's an _amazing_ feat of programming, though....

What bothers me is that people will think this is _actually_ what a Mac is
like...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:30:11 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

Jory M. Earl wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> >
> > I've tried to get to <<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>>
> > all morning, but keep getting my connections refused by the server.
> >
> > Could someone please email me the Mac TrueType version of this font?
> >
> > Thanks.
> 
> you need to reverse the "\" marks to "/", then you can logon.

Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes and
cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.

I apologize for my hasty posting... another reason why everyone should
use Macs ;-P

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:30:58 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 11/01/97 at 09:16 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
> said:
> 
> >>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
> >>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
> 
> >I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
> >haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
> >intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part
> >of it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.
> 
> Ok, I got the DOS version of Executor and installed it. It seems to run OK,
> but when I went to Rob's site and grabbed his CSC program I couldn't get
> Executor to recognize that I'd gotten the file.  CSC is in a binhexed file,
> and I know I have to expand it, but I couldn't find any sign of the Binhex
> program (or the Util folder) in the System folder.
> 
> How did you get Executor to see CSC?

You can find a windows version of an excellent dearchiving utility from
Aladdin Systems' website:

www.aladdinsys.com

It's called "Stuffit Expander for Windows" and it will dearchive .hqx,
..sit, .zip and a bunch of other formats.

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 97 14:17:15 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)

- --- James "Assume the Position" Lindsay wrote:
If you ask nicely, perhaps Doug Berry might be willing to send you
copy of the T4 version we are in the middle of working on (although I
believe he has all the playtesters he needs so don't hold your
breath).
- --- end of quote ---
ooh! ooh! wheres my checkbook? please say this is gonna be a genereal release!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:18:42 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> When considering shipbuilding capacity, remember that yards can build
> *above* the planet's tech level - eg Regina's General Products Yard
> building Kinuir Class Bathtubs.

Good point! Now I'm in a spot. I've always told my players that,
in order for a starport to be able to repair/service their ship,
that starport must be of at least the TL of the ship! I guess I'll
have to eat my words.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:13:04 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2046

>
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 00:22:06 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes
>
>On 11/01/97 at 09:16 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
>said:
>
>>>I'm not aware of "Executor" or ARDI. Is this a MAC emulator for PC's?  What
>>>are it's requirements?  And where can I find out more?
>
>>I found it at www.ardi.com. It works with both CSC, and Metator, except I
>>haven't been able to get it to print as yet. The Demo runs for ten minute
>>intervals and then has to be restarted but if I can figure the print part
>>of it out I think it might be worth the money. more later.
>
>Ok, I got the DOS version of Executor and installed it. It seems to run OK,
>but when I went to Rob's site and grabbed his CSC program I couldn't get
>Executor to recognize that I'd gotten the file.  CSC is in a binhexed file,
>and I know I have to expand it, but I couldn't find any sign of the Binhex
>program (or the Util folder) in the System folder.
>How did you get Executor to see CSC?
>Eris
I unzipped the origional archive with winzip.  I then put what was enclosed
where the archive program in Executor could find it and extracted it to a
directory.  At that point it was a matter of running the program and having
fun.
					Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:53:19 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...

Well, it hasn't even been a day and I've already updated my FF&S
spreadsheet to version 1.1.

Added/changed:
  Stealth fixed.
  Area jammers added.
  Deceptive jammers fixed.
  Survey sensors fixed
  Neutrino and Gravtic signature added.
  Active decoys added.
  LIDAR decoys added.
  Errata from Chris Cox's page applied.

The spreadsheet can be found in Quattro Pro v8 and Excel 5 formats at my
Traveller site: www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm. Just go to the drydock
section.

Thanks. And continue to let me know if there are any problems...
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 15:03 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Industrial Capacity Backwards

Gentle readers:

The piracy-industrial capacity thread leads me to the
issue backwards.  What _really_ should shipbuilding
capacities be?

I once posted a rule-of-thumb for calculating starport
order-of-magitude size, with some auxilary tables for
starport hectarage and capacity, etc.  What I didn't
know was that a rule exists: spaceship support for one 
week equals 1 ton per 1000 population.

There's a nasty little word: support.

Milieu E:20
===========

Terra         1827 C867966-7    Hi                 514    G2 V

Terra -- a backwater world during most of the 1st Imperium; 
balkanized with no jump drive technology.  Not even a client 
state of a pocket empire.  Very sad.

If it were a member of the Imperium, its starport could support 
5,000,000 tons per week.  Right?  That's 50,000 scouts: 7,000
scouts per day; about 300 scouts per hour.  Sure its support is
only TL7, but heck, a gas station is a gas station.  Oh yes:
no orbital facility, so your ship had better be streamlined.

- ---

Ok, I have to convince myself of the reasonability of these
numbers.  I will guesstimate, since I don't have any real facts.


Earth's Airship Support Capacity 
================================

Airport Support Capacity per week
- ---------------------------------
Earth has 10,000 mass-passenger and -cargo planes, 500t each -> 5Mt
Earth has 10,000 large support planes,             500t each -> 5Mt
Earth has 100,000 fighters,                         10t each -> 1Mt
Earth has 200,000 small planes,                      5t each -> 1Mt
							       -----
							       12Mt

Each week, these planes are more-or-less supported.  12 Mt/wk.


Airplane Construction per week
- ------------------------------
Earth builds 4 mass-passenger or -cargo planes,  500t each -> 2000t
Earth builds 4 large support planes,             500t each -> 2000t
Earth builds 400 fighters,                        10t each -> 4000t
Earth builds 800 small planes,                     5t each -> 4000t
					                    --------
						            12,000t

Each week, 12,000 tons of airplane is built.  12 Kt/wk.
That makes building capacity = 0.001 x support capacity.


Air/Space Correlation
=====================

Now I'll correlate Airship numbers with Spaceship numbers:
Space Support == Air Support.  There, that was easy.

So, my guesstimations say Earth can support 120,000 scouts per
week, This is the same order of magnitude as the rules', so
the rules look reasonable.

UNLESS... the correlation factor isn't 1.0.


Questions, comments, corrections?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:40:18 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> As a Mac user, having just fired up Executor on my work PeeCee, let me
> just say <Blech!>
> 
> It will run CSC, granted, but please, Executor is to a Mac as an MRE
> instant coffee packet is to fresh ground fresh brewed.
> 
> It's an _amazing_ feat of programming, though....
> 
> What bothers me is that people will think this is _actually_ what a Mac is
> like...
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

Don't worry Bruce, my expectations of what a Mac looks like is probably
worse then what Executor shows.  :) :) :)

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:38:26 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> Jory M. Earl wrote:
> >
> > Rob Prior wrote:
> > >
> > > I've tried to get to <<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>>
> > > all morning, but keep getting my connections refused by the server.
> > >
> > > Could someone please email me the Mac TrueType version of this font?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > you need to reverse the "\" marks to "/", then you can logon.
> 
> Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes and
> cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.
> 
> I apologize for my hasty posting... another reason why everyone should
> use Macs ;-P

Don't waste your time man, I cannot get these fonts to install at all,
even the .ttf file.  windows 95 refuses to see them for some reason.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:48:56 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Starship Troopers Site

Anybody looked at the 'Starship Troopers' movie web site?

Like, Yuck!!!

With quotes like:

  The Mobile Infantry is here to stay. - "Death from Above!!" 

I have to wonder if the writers or web site authors have any idea
what the basic idea of Mobile Infantry is. Unless you've recruited
a platoon of NBA players, I doubt "Death from Above" is an appropriate
slogan.

Also:

  Space is generally viewed as a vacuum but this is far from actuality.

Who hired these illiterates?

May Traveller never be forced to descend to these depths.
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2048
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, November 3 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2049



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperium tech level changes?
Re: Bilanidin Font
Piracy Adventure Game?
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Milieu E:21 Adventure Hooks
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
RE: Industrial Capacity Backwards
Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother
Aslan SEX fiends
Re: Piracy mechanics
Peroz Light GravTank (TL11)
Bulldozer (TL5)
Airstream Camper (TL6)
Ormatii Gravbus (TL10)
Palimqua Gravbus (TL12)
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
RoboReindeer (TL 11)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:40:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperium tech level changes?

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
<snip>
>Look what happened to IBM.  For a few decades "IBM" and "Computers" were
>almost synonymous to the great unwashed.  Then they told two guys named
>Jobs and Wozniack to take a walk...  They almost recovered, But then Bill
>Gates blew into town, and Intel (founded by more IBM refugees) pulled the
>rug out from under them.  IBM survived by virtue of it's shear size, but in
>the public's mind, it's almost a non-entity.
I used to think like this as well when I worked in a mom-&-pop
computer store doing pc repairs.  After I got to the University and
saw the IBM boxes they have here (not the pcs, the unix boxes, rs6000,
etc. which they've built into the 'mainframe') I changed my opinion.

Granted IBM still made a lot of bad marketing decisions (what was MCA
after all, not that it was bad technology, but they never convinced
anyone else to hop on the wagon!).  But it appears to me more that
they decided to aim for the corporate market at the expense of the PC
you-and-me type of market.  And only recently have they tried to get
back into it (Acer is owned by IBM after all, and I've got one of
those).  

They are, after all, still charging $400+/hour for their techs.  But
you can get one 24x7.  Which is what Corporate America wants.

So as near as I can tell (I've got a buddy working for IBM out of
Kansas City), IBM doesn't care what we of the great unwashed masses
thinks.

IMHO.
Jim

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, Help Desk, Campus Computing, (573) 882-5000       
  University of Missouri at Columbia, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Help, Aztecs have kidnapped my sidekick!"
					The Tick
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:08:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
<snip>
>Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes and
>cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.
<snip>
Try bouncing back and forth between PCs and Unix!  I keep trying to
type unix commands at the DOS prompt. ;-)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 20:08:19 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Piracy Adventure Game?

Someone mentioned something about a Keith-brothers adventure that included
rules for boardgaming a pirate ship chased by the authorities.  (Or something
like that, it was late at night when I read it, and I deleted that digest by
mistake.)

Was this ever published?  (I don't remember seeing it, and I thought I'd
collected all the Keiths' stuff.  But it might have been a con advanture.)

How can I get a copy?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:09:34 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

It is included with Executor.  Mine was anyway.

On  3 Nov 97 at 12:30, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> You can find a windows version of an excellent dearchiving utility from
> Aladdin Systems' website:
> 
> www.aladdinsys.com
> 
> It's called "Stuffit Expander for Windows" and it will dearchive .hqx,
> .sit, .zip and a bunch of other formats.
> 


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 16:18 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Milieu E:21 Adventure Hooks

Martian Dawn:
   Establish Mars One, the first successful Martian colony!
   Be a Founder, a sturdy engineer to tame the first corner
   of the Red Planet.  Fend off rival states' sabotage; repair 
   the main dome before one of the Storms hit; deal with 
   nasty corporations and industries as they try to extract
   every last penny from the colony; moderate the tension
   between the ultrarich and the belters; and finally, fight
   in the Revolution for Mars' independence.
   An early E21 adventure.

Phobos Station: 
   The highly funded and connected Earth-Only terrorist group
   have taken over Phobos station and threaten doom for
   millions.  Can your team overcome this pseudo-corporation
   and its political machine back on Earth?
   A middle E21 adventure.

Expatriates Module 1: The Martians
   Humanity has lived on Mars now for X generations, and the
   differences from Terrans are noticeable.  As the distance
   between these worlds separates them physically, so the beliefs 
   about Mars' destiny pit Terrans against Martians as opponents.
   Includes resources for Mars Colony: social and political history 
   of the Martians, area maps of the colonized sections of Mars, 
   character generation modifications for Martian characters, and 
   a short adventure: "Cobalt Blue", where the players must thwart 
   the cataclysmic sabotage of the new atmospheric processor 
   project, code named Cobalt Alpha.
   A late E21 module.

Icarus One:
   A murder draws an ex-military shipping crew into the web of
   deceit, as a huge cover-up is slowly revealed... about a new
   type of spaceship engine, and the rumor of a non-Terran branch
   of humanity spread over hundreds of stars.  Can the crew discover 
   the truth without EarthGov finding out?
   A late E21 adventure.

Daedalus One:
   Your exploratory scout cruiser encounters humans on a world
   beyond the fronteirs of the Grand Imperium.  How the PCs handle
   the situation determines how far, how fast this hostile world
   brings mass destruction to the civilised universe.  Will they
   even be able to escape the scheming Terran agencies, corporations,
   and mercenaries?
   A late E21 adventure.

The Jupiter Run:
   Join the race!  A comprehensive design system and parts list 
   lets the players sink their hard-earned millions into augmented 
   solar-sailcraft for a ride through Jupiter's stratosphere.  The
   winner gains celebrity status and a generous purse.  The losers
   get nothing.  And poorly designed sailcrafts plunge their pilots
   to their death in Jupiter's merciless atmosphere.  Let the group
   design their own ship and make the run, or provide them one of
   several standard models, or put them on the belter enforcement 
   team tasked with reclaiming stolen company research containing
   breakthrough sailcraft material sure to put the competition out
   of business.
   A late E21 adventure.

Outland:
   "See the Solar System for Free!"
   As per the movie with Sean Connery, Ganymede mining colony has
   had record quantities of ore mined for the Nth year, and the
   PCs have just been rotated in as Marshalls for the year.  
   A mid/late E21 adventure.

Belter Complex:
   Spend a few terms as a belter and see why it takes more than
   a fusion rocket and smelter to survive the Clutter, where Sol
   is a bright dot and home is a bubble on a dark iceball.  Contains
   maps of major belter colonies and tables for sending your character
   on a stint as a Terran belter.  Or, spending ten to life here as an
   inmate of the BeltPen -- the toughest way to pay back society.
   Or, keeping the peace at BeltPen for a year while on law enforcement 
   rotation.
   A mid/late E21 module.

Terra Orbital, Luna Surface Spaceports:
   Layouts for the Terra Orbital Facility and the Luna Surface
   Station.  Learn the problems and possibilities with the two
   largest facilities in the solar system.  Commission spacecraft
   from the drydock which supplies 75% of the system's vehicles.
   Spend a year as a resident law enforcement officer at each port, 
   on the rotation system ("see the solar system for free!").  
   Uncover a massive drug ring, and bring the kingpins to justice
   (Miami Vice in space).  Train marines to fight effectively in 
   freefall and half-gravity in preparation for an assault on Mars 
   during the Revolution.  
   A multi-period E21 module.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:08:59 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

On  3 Nov 97 at 12:30, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes and
> cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.
> 
> I apologize for my hasty posting... another reason why everyone should use
> Macs ;-P

We should downgrade to Macs because you post hastily???  No, I don't think so. :)


 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:45:58 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

I have converted the family of (Mac) Excel spreadsheets for World 
Builders into a single Excel 95 spreadsheet ... I can't remember who 
wrote the original (I've not found it again in my web browsing).  Due 
to the extensive set of Excel macro functions that do most of the 
calculations, I suspect that this will not convert well to any version 
of 1-2-3 (does someone know if any 1-2-3 version will understand Excel 
macro functions .. which are the older macro language before visual 
Basic for XL came along).

The Excel 95 file is 111k (zipped) and 347k un-zipped. 

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:39:37 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Industrial Capacity Backwards

>Date: 03 Nov 1997 15:03 EST
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Industrial Capacity Backwards
....
>The piracy-industrial capacity thread leads me to the
>issue backwards.  What _really_ should shipbuilding
>capacities be?                         ^^^^
....
>Questions, comments, corrections?

Hello,
  Great stuff. But what about water-going transport -
perhaps barges could be ignored with trains, but ocean
going tranport is our major long-distance bulk movement
system.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:39:51 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother

SD Mooney wrote:

> Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk> wrote a long, interesting summary of
> ship building capacity in response to a previous post on Wed, 1 Oct 1997 by
> Douglas <douglas@teleport.com
>
> <snipped as it was long>
>
> When considering shipbuilding capacity, remember that yards can build
> *above* the planet's tech level - eg Regina's General Products Yard
> building Kinuir Class Bathtubs.
>
> As a related issue - what TL does the Book 2 CT starships system assume?
>
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
> "Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
> "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost"

 eh?

I don't remember that rule, tho' it makes sense if you accept the idea of
standard parts.  Would you point it out for me so I can go over it?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:54:17 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Aslan SEX fiends

>She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
>Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....

> So my question for the TML is 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual
> encounters, and if so 2) would they use contraceptives.... I await your
replies with interest...

My guess would be yes to casual sex, with a general cultural dislike of
contraception. Aslan have a well-developed familial based culture, which
would seem to imply partners (I know it is controversial 
but I follow the idea that permanent couples were a necessary first step for
civilization). As a culture that values family (clans) and expansion
(remember the Fteirle had several nuclear wars before they ever went into
space. The idea of self-restraint, ie population controls, seems unlikely)

If they happen to mate like terrestrial cats, then the humans may come
running to rescue their friend when she lets out an ear piercing
shriek/roar! 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:58:13 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:15:22 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>OTOH, it just isn't that big a ship.  I don't have my Traveller
>>stuff in from of my, but it only has two turrets and can
>>only bring one to bear on a single target at a time.  (And
>>that one is take out in a the first shot).

>FYI - from CT supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats.

[Gazelle Class close escort deleted.  It might indeed be the sort
of thing one would want for an antipiracy patrol.]

>System Defense Boat -
>400 dt armoured hull
>4 hardpoints carrying 2x triple laser  and 2x triple missile
>Armour level 9 (again if my memory of the USP is right)

It depends on what book you use.  The is another version
in Fighting Ships that only has two turrets.  In any case,
the one you site doesn't cost that much less than a
Kinunuir.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 23:43:25 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Peroz Light GravTank (TL11)

Peroz Light GravTank (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.00 displacement ton wedge streamlined;  18.2 tonnes;  MCr 1.34
Chassis:
     14.0 kL wedge streamlined (7.5 m long x 2.10 m wide x 1.9 m high); 
Structure: 468 kg of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick, sealed
to 1 atm
     Armour: 10 front (1.0 cm, moderate slope), 9 sides (1.0 cm), 9 rear (1.0
cm), 9 top (1.0 cm), 9 bottom (1.0 cm)
Performance:
     2.12 MW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 83.5 L of enriched water
(83.5 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 2.00 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 774 km/h; 
Range: 77101 km;  Agility: -5DM (7.8G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot, commander, gunner;  3 crew stations
     Basic life support; Hatches: 1 manual; Grav Compensation (2G), Only
seating compensated
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Plasma Cannon, Lt Veh-11        44 (11 expExtremely Long         1      
  +5DM, remoteturret
     Autocannon, RF Lt-11            11        Very Long      1000    3      
  +5DM, remoteturret
Communications:
     Continental Radio (100 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec)
     Regional Laser (1.00 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW, MilSpec)  Resolution: 1.0 mm per km of
range
Other:
     748 L of cargo space

First of a new generation of plasma-armed gravtanks, the Peroz boasts a light
plasma cannon and rapid-firing autocannon in turret mounts. The power plant
is rated to supply continuous power to the plasma cannon; a platoon of Peroz
gravtanks can devastate vast areas in a short period of time. The autocannon
is primarily used in a defensive role against incoming missiles and infantry
attacks. 

The Peroz is lightly armoured, and relies on its speed and agility to
survive.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 23:44:38 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Bulldozer (TL5)

Bulldozer (TL5)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.75 displacement ton open-topped box;  3.92 tonnes;  kCr 102
Chassis:
     10.5 kL open-topped box (3.4 m long x 1.8 m wide x 1.8 m high); 
Structure: 556 kg of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.20 cm thick, 2
armour rating
     
Performance:
     102 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 152 L of hydrocarbons
(152 kg), 15 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW tracks with wide treads; 
Maximum Speed: 18 km/h; 
Range: 275 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Construction Equipment: blade can move 100 kL per hour

An utterly bare-bones design, the basic bulldozer is a common feature at
every construction site. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 23:45:14 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Airstream Camper (TL6)

Airstream Camper (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box streamlined;  7.30 tonnes;  kCr 63.3
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box streamlined (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high); 
Structure: 1.07 tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     803 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 642 L of hydrocarbons
(642 kg), 8 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 800 kW wheels; Maximum Speed: 99 km/h; 
Range: 789 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  5 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: recreation space, kitchen for 6 simultaneous meals
     1.60 kL of cargo space

On many urbanized worlds, the wilderness holds a special allure. Discontented
urbanites long to "return to the wilderness", as long as it contains flush
toilets and showers. The Airstream Camper is a low-tech vehicle catering to
that need. In spite of its name, it is totaly unsuitable for real camping,
being little more than a mobile bedroom and kitchen; on worlds where this
type of vehicle is found, there are special 'campgrounds' providing suitably
rustic parking spaces, flush toilets, and hot showers.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 23:44:04 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ormatii Gravbus (TL10)

Ormatii Gravbus (TL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     5.00 displacement ton box streamlined;  10.0 tonnes;  kCr 48.7
Chassis:
     70.0 kL box streamlined (6.4 m long x 3.3 m wide x 3.3 m high); 
Structure: 1.10 tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.01 cm thick,
sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 3 front (0.04 cm), 2 sides (0.01 cm), 2 rear (0.01 cm), 2 top
(0.01 cm), 2 bottom (0.01 cm)
Performance:
     803 kW TL10 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 40.2 L of enriched water
(40.2 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 800 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 411 km/h; 
Range: 40977 km;  Agility: -3DM (5.7G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  30 roomy passenger seats
     Basic life support; Hatches: 2 power
Communications:
     Continental Radio (1.00 kW, TL10, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 5.0 mm per km of range
Other:
     Safety Features: licensed for orbital use, Roadgrid, fire suppression
system
     7.12 kL of cargo space

A basic people-mover, the Ormatii Gravbus is a simple, cheap way to provide
mass transit on a high-tech world. Although relatively slow, it can carry 30
passengers in comfort at speeds adequate for most purposes. The Ormatii
qualifies for an orbital license on all Imperial worlds.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 1997 23:42:41 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Palimqua Gravbus (TL12)

Palimqua Gravbus (TL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     5.00 displacement ton box streamlined;  9.56 tonnes;  kCr 61.9
Chassis:
     70.0 kL box streamlined (6.4 m long x 3.3 m wide x 3.3 m high); 
Structure: 1.10 tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick,
sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 3 front (0.04 cm), 2 sides (0.02 cm), 2 rear (0.02 cm), 2 top
(0.02 cm), 2 bottom (0.02 cm)
Performance:
     803 kW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 25.1 L of enriched water
(25.1 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 800 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 899 km/h; 
Range: 89580 km;  Agility: -9DM (11.9G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  30 roomy passenger seats
     Basic life support; Hatches: 2 power
Communications:
     Continental Radio (1.00 kW, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 0.200 mm per km of range
Other:
     Safety Features: licensed for orbital use, Roadgrid, fire suppression
system
     6.15 kL of cargo space

A basic people-mover, the Palimqua Gravbus is a simple, cheap way to provide
mass transit on a high-tech world. Although relatively slow, it can carry 30
passengers in comfort at speeds adequate for most purposes. The Palimqua
qualifies for an orbital license on all Imperial worlds.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:49:11 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

Ethan Henry wrote:

>
>Anybody looked at the 'Starship Troopers' movie web site?
>
>Like, Yuck!!!
>
>With quotes like:
>
>  The Mobile Infantry is here to stay. - "Death from Above!!"
>
>I have to wonder if the writers or web site authors have any idea
>what the basic idea of Mobile Infantry is. Unless you've recruited
>a platoon of NBA players, I doubt "Death from Above" is an appropriate
>slogan.
>
>Also:
>
>  Space is generally viewed as a vacuum but this is far from actuality.
>
>Who hired these illiterates?
>
>May Traveller never be forced to descend to these depths.


	A few days ago I came across a blurb on Starship Troopers: The
Gotching Abortion in one of those promotional movie mags they give away
free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect that much
of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over female troopers when
they're not all fighting bugs together.

	A while back I said that ST:TGA was going to look like The Last
Remake of Beau Geste meets Aliens.  I think I'm going to downgrade the
outlook.

	I now think that it's going to look like 90210 joins the French
Foreign Legion and meets the Aliens, only worse, since we won't get to see
Brandon getting his head bitten off by a 12-foot mutant cockroach.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:18:00 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 11/02/97 at 04:37 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
said:

>I used Winzip to expand both Metator and CSC into seperate subdirectories
>of the Executor directory. Loaded up Executor. Then used the stuffit
>expander program that came with executor on the CSC and Metator files.

>When that was done I clicked on the fileing cabinet icon at the upper left
>hand corner of the "Mac" screen. THat brought up a list of drives acros
>the top row of the screen. From there I just navigated through until I
>found the right subdirectory. Clicked on the program icons(s) and they
>ran.

Thanks for the reply.  I found the problem. 

Turns out Executor didn't recognize the file's names on an HPFS partition.
When I copied them to a FAT partition Executor saw them, and I was able to
get them unstuffed and installed. The interface seems pretty clunky (of
course, the Mac's might be too, I don't know), but CSC works fine. 

I haven't tried printing yet though.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:23:27 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: RoboReindeer (TL 11)

RoboReindeer (TL11)

Summary:
     0.17 displacement ton open frame;  1.85 tonnes;  kCr 200 (approx.)
Chassis:
     2.38 kL open frame (2.3 m long x 94 cm wide x 1.80 m high);
     Structure: 57.5 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs,
     body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
Performance:
     2 x 50.0 kW CI Fusion Plus power plants;
     Fuel: 3.12 L of enriched water (3.12 kg), 104 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW legs with snow/ice cleats and swimming;
     Maximum Speed: 117 km/h; Range: 12153 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew: Rider;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec, DirAnt, DirFnd)
Sensors:
     Passive Subregional Optical (1 W)  Resolution: 0.200 mm per km of range
Other:
     Options: Entertainment centre, wet bar, kitchen for 1 simultaneous meal
     Safety Features: Roadgrid, fire suppression system
     Trailer hitch for 2.00 tonnes; 63.1 L of cargo space; illuminated
     SmartCoat display on all unused surface area

A fine example of the creative applications to which backwards pocket
empires put advanced Imperial technology, the Sayat RoboReindeer uses a
pair of standard-model Cleon Industries "Fusion Plus" power plants.  The
"reindeer", a domestic riding and pack animal of the Sayat homeworld, could
not successfully be transplanted to one of their main colony worlds due to
biological incompatibilities with the terraforming agents deployed there.
Unwilling to be parted from this economically and emotionally valuable
beast, Sayat engineers designed and built this surrogate.

The RoboReindeer outwardly resembles a biological reindeer in every
respect; even the radio antenna is disguised in the lifelike antlers, and
the onboard computer and control system is designed to mimic the genuine
reindeer-riding experience.  (The illuminated fur coat comes in a range of
attractive neon colors, and can be turned off during the daytime.)
Specially designed hooves provide excellent traction on ice and in snow and
sand, and the RoboReindeer is fully capable of swimming short distances,
such as across lakes and fording rivers.  Internal compartments hold the
ubiquitous Sayat liquor cabinet (who would go out into the taiga without a
stock of strong spirits?) and a miniaturized kitchen, providing the ability
to cook hot meals on the road.  The built-in "tundra blaster" provides for
rider entertainment on long-haul trips.  Internal cargo capacity (minimal)
can be augmented by use of pack saddles, and the RoboReindeer is easily
harnessed to sleighs and travoises of up to two metric tons weight.  Able
to walk clear around most small planets without refueling, the RoboReindeer
drinks additional water after refinement in a portable solar-powered
"bucket" (not included).

As with all Sayat technology, the RoboReindeer is built for extreme
durability and reliability, with a warantee for one million kilometers or
ten years of operation.  However, insofar as pricing can be determined in
the Sayat economy, the RoboReindeer seems to "cost" nearly two and a half
times much as it would under Imperial manufacture.

Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2049
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2050



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CT product query
Re: Who invented what
Re: Piracy---the new era!
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Kkree
Re: Aslan Morality
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)
Yet More CSC Upgrades
Re: Aslan SEX fiends
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
TL 1 Land Yacht (CSC the madness is spreading)
Executor
Re: CSC Website Fixed
More spreadsheet stuff...
Re: Aslan Morality
Re: Deadman's Tumble - was Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy mechanics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:38:14 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: CT product query

Obscure question that's been nagging me for a while:  what were the
adventures in the old Double Adventure #3, "Death Station/Argon Gambit"?
I've never seen this one myself, nor read anything about it.  Can someone
fill me in here?  Idle curiosity is the devil's coffee break, as you know.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:36:23 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Who invented what

On 11/03/97 at 09:55 AM,  "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> said:

>>Now, tell me again how many countries take part in the World Series...?

Participate directly, two. Contribute players, a dozen or so. Watch, a
couple dozen.  Still not anything like football, though, is it. ;->

>And der Roossians inwented Trilicali wheat, and nuclear wessels. 

Hey! This isn't Star Trek! It's the Vilani that inwented ewerything! ;->

>Let's face it, a game that involves running and hitting things probably started
>in the neolithic, except instead of bases, bats and balls, it involved
>sticks, rocks and pissed off mastodons

Didn't football begin with teams from two nearby cities/towns kicking the
head of an executed criminal (or political/religious type) up and down the
road between them. Winner the side that got the head though the other's
city gate first.



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:51:25 +0000
From: "Garth Dighton" <gdighton@elite.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy---the new era!

On  3 Nov 97 at 12:35, David P. Summers wrote:

> >Sure you do, you just haven't bothered to do the math yet ;-). You said
> >in another posting that you believe 12 ships are needed to safeguard a
> >planet and that a system will have an average of 5 places to guard.
> 
> [Deletions].
> 
> >you need 43.8 Teracredit per year to maintain them.
> 
>  If we use the Kinunuir that you talked about when
> we were posting on this (and which is close to 1000 Tons), and
> taking your 10%/year (I think it will be more, but if you say
> it is the "canon" number), it costs 100 MCr/yr for each ship.
> That's 1200 MCr/yr (actually, I think it would be three shifts,
> not two, but we will let that pass) per world or 6 TCr per
> system per year.  With about a 1000 systems in the Imperium, that is
> 6,000 TCr/year.
> 

Math Error...
1200 MCr/yr per system times 5 planets per system is only 6000 MCr or 
6 GigaCredits, not 6 TeraCredits. (6 TCr is 6 million MCr). The 
standard assumption is 10,000 systems in the Imperium (which is 
where Hans is getting his overall budget), for a total of 60 TCr per 
year. (Out of 4500 TCr in taxes, yields 1.33% of the budget).

[Note, I don't know the price of a Kinunir, so I am not attempting to 
correct anything but the math error here.]

In case you don't remember me, I'm the poor fool who started this 
thread two months ago, and has been lurking since, watching the 
incredible debate that has sprung from my innocently asking a couple 
of simple questions...


Garth Dighton
gdighton@elite.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:28:42 -0500 (EST)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

In a message dated 97-10-29 12:50:41 EST, you write:

<< Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.
 
 Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Tyrosine, Uranyl >>

You're quite right it is DNA, but it's not.  DNA wouldn't contain such a
large number of Adenine bases in sequence.  This is similar to a message
found on RNA which contains a polyadenylated tail that tells cellular
mechanisms not to destroy said signal but rather let its code be transferred
into proteins.  Sorry about the earlier transgression.  Silly mistake!!!

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:14:12 -0700
From: Lee Neal <deathadder@theriver.com>
Subject: Kkree

Anyone the race stats/template for the Kkree?
Even Info. from CT would help! Please



Thanks
Lee
http://personal.riverusers.com/~deathadder/tne.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:32:36 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:22:34, SD Mooney asked a loaded question:
>She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
>Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....

Well, this should be an interesting topic!

Here's (my) short answer:
> 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual encounters, and if so 

It's been known to happen, from time to time.  But usually not in situations
where rumours are likely to get back to her family.  But IMHO, she'd probably 
be more likely to be interested in finding an unattached Aslan FEMALE (!) for 
an evening's pleasure ...

> 2) would they use contraceptives.

Definitely.


Here's the details of my take on it, as tempered by a file I used to have, but 
currently  can't find, which covered in intimate detail, how the various major 
races "do it".  If I locate the file, I'll be sure to let the TML know, as I'm 
sure that many people would be interested in this, ah, research.

IMHO, the usual type of 'casual' sexual encounter for an Aslan female would
be with another female.  

Here's why:
Females outnumber the males by about 3:1, yet Aslan 'families' are normally
monogamous.  If we assume that Aslan females have some type of sex drive*,
then the two-thirds of the Aslan female population must be doing something
about having sex.  Whatever that 'something', is:
- - Has NO chance of causing pregnancies (even under pre-industrial tech), and
- - Doesn't involve a significant portion of the male population.
Female-female activities meet both of these criteria rather conveniently, and
(if accepted as a normal part of an unmarried female's life), probably doesn't
cause any particular comment by Aslan society as a whole.

* Assuming that Aslan females have no particular desire for sex does solve
  the entire problem, but makes the entire question moot, raises the question
  of 'where do all the ihatei come from', and is rather boring besides.


Aslan are fairly conservative (particularly the males), and the invention of 
effective contraceptive drugs is a post industrial revolution technology.
Aslan males would be reluctant to trust a (female) technology they don't 
understand when the consequences could be so serious.

In addition, the overall structure of Aslan society doesn't change very much
regardless of TL.  Even privmitive Aslan societies use the same structure.
Therefore, whatever the females do to relieve sexual tension doesn't have
a risk of pregnancy, no matter what the available contraceptive TL** is.

** Is contraceptive TL a world statistic that could be derived from WBH?

Conceiving a child outside of a family structure would be a grave dishonor
(due to the breach of the traditional Aslan family/clan/pride structure), and
would practically guarantee that the child (and probably both parents) would
become outcasts (social status 0), unless the couple were to marry (and even 
then, there may be lingering dishonor).  It's worth noting that Aslan don't 
even have a way of formally addressing someone who is born outside of the 
traditional family structure.


Now, what do the males do to relieve sexual tension?  IMHO, male-male sexual 
relationships would be almost unheard-of, and discouraged by Aslan society.  
There are probably low-standing or outcast females who are 'prostitutes' 
(this is a very loose  translation; it's hard to have prostitution, in the 
sense that humans use it, when the 'cusotomer' has no concept of money, and 
probably doesn't have and/or doesn't have access to any).  

In any case, the female involved manages the male's affairs (much like his
female relatives would ordinarily do) in addition to any more personal 
services she may provide.  She skims a percentage off of the male's accounts, 
and as long as he's satisfied, he's not going to go complaining to his female 
elatives.  This is a balancing act, with amount being skimmed depending on the 
proximity and watchfulness of the male's female relatives.  Even merc troopers 
are typically related to the females who manage the unit (and keep their pay 
accounts), so there is a certain amount of balance in the system.

The other way to view this arrangement is that the male's female relatives
pay an unrelated, lower-class female to 'watch over' the affairs of the
male.  She gets a percentage of the assets as her pay, and may provide the
male with sex and companionship so that he doesn't complain about it.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 1997 03:18:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

>I have converted the family of (Mac) Excel spreadsheets for World 
>Builders into a single Excel 95 spreadsheet ... I can't remember who 
>wrote the original 

This could well be mine.  Does it generate star systems (as per Scouts),
detail every planet in the system (as per WBH), generate trade data, and also
do animal encounter tables?  If the macro sheet is called WBH, then it it
probably my set of spreadsheets.  

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 1997 03:23:59 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)

Maybe I shouldn't finish FFS2 after all.   My mental equilibrium is too
fragile for what you twisted souls would likely come up with :-)

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 1997 03:29:50 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Yet More CSC Upgrades

I said I wouldn't do this, but...

Would anyone find the ability to make modules useful?  I could easily add
options for modular cargo, and modular lab space.  Multi-purpose modules
would be harder (and I'd rather leave those for FFS2).


And wrt clunky interfaces: must be the emulator you're using.  I flip back
and forth between a 68030 Mac and a 200Mz Pentium, and my old Mac responds
faster to mouse movement and keystrokes.  

Of course, I'm totally confident that you wouldn't find the CSC interface
"clunky".  Not if you want me to finish FFS2, anyway.  Right?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:08:29 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan SEX fiends

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Crawford <glennc@nelvana.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 9:23 PM
Subject: Aslan SEX fiends


>
>>She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
>>Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....
>
>> So my question for the TML is 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual
>> encounters, and if so 2) would they use contraceptives.... I await your
>replies with interest...
>
>My guess would be yes to casual sex, with a general cultural dislike of
>contraception. Aslan have a well-developed familial based culture, which
>would seem to imply partners (I know it is controversial
>but I follow the idea that permanent couples were a necessary first step
for
>civilization). As a culture that values family (clans) and expansion
>(remember the Fteirle had several nuclear wars before they ever went into
>space. The idea of self-restraint, ie population controls, seems unlikely)
>
>If they happen to mate like terrestrial cats, then the humans may come
>running to rescue their friend when she lets out an ear piercing
>shriek/roar!

Not to mention the fun of a litter of kittens as they prowl the engineroom.
My what fun! Anyone have a clue as to the gestation period for an Aslan?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 23:31:46 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 11/03/97 at 11:34 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>As a Mac user, having just fired up Executor on my work PeeCee, let me
>just say <Blech!> 

>It will run CSC, granted, but please, Executor is to a Mac as an MRE
>instant coffee packet is to fresh ground fresh brewed.

>It's an _amazing_ feat of programming, though....

>What bothers me is that people will think this is _actually_ what a Mac is
>like...

Uh...you mean it's not? ;-p

Actually, I'm really quite impressed that it works as well as it does. I
don't know if it's worth $249 to me though.  I'd pay the $49.95 student
price, though.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 23:56:26 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

On 1997-11-03 14:38, Jory M. Earl <j-man@iname.com> wrote the following:

>Don't waste your time man, I cannot get these fonts to install at all,
>even the .ttf file.  windows 95 refuses to see them for some reason.

That's odd. I, personally, got it to install on win95. I know it works.

Tomorrow, I will download it again, and check one more time to ensure 
that I can install it. I'll post step by step instructions.

I seem to recall that I couldn't do it the first time, 'cuz there's no 
bitmap, but I worked around that somehow. Don't recall how of the top of 
my head.

Once again, apologies for the trouble...

Remember, this *is* a beta version. ;) I will create an easier to install 
version, with PC bitmaps and the whole shpiel, as soon as my fontographer 
skills improve and the thing is finished...


- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 23:54:16 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

On 11/03/97 at 03:08 PM,  Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu> said:

>>Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes and
>>cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.
><snip>
>Try bouncing back and forth between PCs and Unix!  I keep trying to type
>unix commands at the DOS prompt. ;-)

MKS Toolkit! Install the Mortice Kern System's Korn Shell Toolkit on your
PC and you've got almost all the *nix commands at your disposal. 


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 00:54:06 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 1997-11-03 14:09, Kevin L. Kitchens <peiprog@feist.com> wrote the 
following:

>It is included with Executor.  Mine was anyway.

I found that out when I downloaded Executor. It's the mac version that's 
emulated within Executor, though.

Windows users might still be interested in doing the dearchiving of .hqx 
and .sit files first, from within windows, before launching Executor. 
Aladdin's windows version would do it for ye.

>On  3 Nov 97 at 12:30, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>
>> You can find a windows version of an excellent dearchiving utility from
>> Aladdin Systems' website:
>> 
>> www.aladdinsys.com
>> 
>> It's called "Stuffit Expander for Windows" and it will dearchive .hqx,
>> .sit, .zip and a bunch of other formats.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 00:54:02 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 1997-11-03 20:18, Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> wrote the following:

>Turns out Executor didn't recognize the file's names on an HPFS partition.
>When I copied them to a FAT partition Executor saw them, and I was able to
>get them unstuffed and installed. The interface seems pretty clunky (of
>course, the Mac's might be too, I don't know), but CSC works fine. 

I assure you, Eris, the clunkyness was due to the "clean-room" nature of 
the program, and is no reflection of the actual Mac experience. I tried 
it today. What's with that green circle when highlighting icons? The 
icons remind me of clumsy Windows 2. I bet they were unwilling to "swipe" 
the actual mac icons and risk litigation. 

And opening large folders was sloooooww. The "real" Mac finder is no 
speed demon at present, but this emulated one -- I wasted half of the 10 
minute demo just waiting for the screen to update after I quit an 
application.

But -- CSC seems to work, and I guess that's what's important to PC 
people...

PS. I'm not sure if everyone realizes that there is a linux version of 
Executor too, iirc.



- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:09:04 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: TL 1 Land Yacht (CSC the madness is spreading)

Well, since us poor benighted Wintel users have (through the wonders of
Executor) gained access to CSC, I'll expect the list to be full of all sorts
of weird and wonderful vehicles. So without further ado here's my first
contribution. As an aside, here's an idea; since I'd expect there to be a
fairly prestidous outpouring of creativity over the next few days and EV was
such a damp schwib. Hows about we gather all these vehicles together stick
them on the web somewhere and do EV properly.

Braudel Land Yacht (TL1)
Designed by Andrew Vallance

Summary:
     3.00 displacement ton open-topped slab; 7.88 tonnes; kCr 71.0
Chassis:
     42.0 kL open-topped slab (11 m long x 3.4 m wide x 1.0 m high);
     Structure: 87.6 kg of heavy wood, rated for 0.1Gs, body 0.30 cm thick,
     0 armour rating
Performance:
     457 kW TL1 Sail power plant
     Propulsion System: 450 kW wheels; Maximum Speed: 41 km/h;
     Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, Steward; 2 crew stations; 14 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: wet bar, kitchen for 16 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     trailer hitch for 8.00 tonnes; 3.15 kL of cargo space

Developed on Braudel (Trojan Reach 1608), a tech 3 lost colony. These Hand
built land yachts such as these are the main mode of transport on the world.
These land yacht can easily transport an entire family and their belongings
as they pusue the migrating herds of Yurfal.

[This design was inspired by CT adventure 4 - Leviathan]

Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:28:39 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Executor

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes... 8-)

Metator and CSC running on my PC!!!!! 8-)

Executor takes a while to load (long enough for me to start listening
nervously to the precise noises coming from my hard disk drive) but does
seem to run quite fast, although it does have plenty of stuff disabled, and
not all the interface functionality (clicking on scroll-bars, etc.) seems to
work. I'm running on a 166 MHz Pentium, so I guess it'll be slower for some
people...

Oh, and I had to de-stuff CSC & Metator using the StuffIt Expander provided,
because using WinZip created a file which Executor regarded as a Unix text
file and therefore wouldn't execute. Then again, I avoid Macs like the
plague, so I may have done something wrong.

Yours, starry-eyed!

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:52:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

> So many times I have
>seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
>for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.

This is where my stratagy of hedging my bets comes in. Get one of each and
network them using TCP/IP .... :-)


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
	http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~edq/
                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:02:56 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: More spreadsheet stuff...

I have now completely updated the speadsheets on my website. There are now
Quattro Pro (v8) and Excel (v5) workbooks for both SSDS and FF&S (v2).

The website is www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm. The spreadsheets can be
found in the Drydock area.

Please let me know what you think.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:29:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> In one of my recent games, the female Aslan Engineer on the good ole
> Empress Nicholle got bored by the humans in the group (yet another
> interminal visit to a restaurant where the human characters were flirting
> at each other) so went off to chat with an Aslan Merc unit staying at the
> TAS hostel.
>=20
> She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
> Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....
>=20
> So my question for the TML is 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual
> encounters, and if so 2) would they use contraceptives.... I await your
> replies with interest...
>=20
I think of the Aslan as being TNG-Klingon-like in their honor (no doubt wich=20
one was first). Perhaps that could lead to a scene like the one between=20
Worf an K=B4helyr, when after their night on the holodeck Worf attempted to==20
marry her, but she didn=B4t want to ... and, that=B4s sure, they did _not_ =use=20
contraceptives.
Would make an interesting outcome for your Aslan character player, isn=B4t =it?

For the play, if a character wants to have a sexual encouter, I would=20
leave it up to them. (It did not occur yet in my group). For the Aslan=20
the only question would be: is it honorable? I think it is, if both of=20
them agree. It is possibly not honorable to pay for it. But I leave that=20
to further discussion.

The Zhodani, for example, would never go to a prostitute, because of=20
their dislike for any untruly. But if two of them come together it might=20
be a night like no other - mentally linked toegether.

I don=B4t know if this fits into the conservative system of the Vilani.=20
Perhaps they even have an occupation for this - given to the heirs of the=
=20
family?

I don=B4t want to think of interracial relationships yet - but it=B4s=20
becoming interesting ....

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:40:24 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble - was Re: Piracy

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> >You can set the ship to spinning about any axis. But only one of them
> >at once. So "tumbling" is the wrong word.
>=20
> Fair point. Okay, what I specifically meant was that you induce spin in a=
ll
> three axes to make the ship unapproachable.
>=20
Sorry, but a spin around any two axes can be computed to a spin of one=20
axis between them. But, what is the point, if you did not get one of the=20
main axes, the ship will begin to tumble and turn to another, stable axis.

Every physical body will do this. You can test this with a pingpong=20
racket. Hold it horizontal, and throw it up that it turns to you. At=20
the same time it will turn 180 degrees around its long axis, and when you=
=20
catch it, you will look on the other side.=20

It=B4s quite funny (for a physician).

> I used 'dead man's tumble' because IIRC Hard Times uses it as a phrase to
> describe a ship in such a situation.
>=20
Good phrase.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:49:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

David P. Summers writes:
>Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:15:22 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>OTOH, it just isn't that big a ship.  I don't have my Traveller
>>>stuff in from of my, but it only has two turrets and can
>>>only bring one to bear on a single target at a time.

Not true. With ships of that size all batteries bear.
>>>(And that one is taken out in a the first shot).

Even if that does happen (and it isn't nearly as much of a sure thing as
you claim) the SDB would still have its othe turret. All it has to do is
to rotate and bring the other one to bear, whereafter it would proceed to
cut the offending ship into shish-kebab.

>>System Defense Boat -
>>400 dt armoured hull
>>4 hardpoints carrying 2x triple laser  and 2x triple missile
>>Armour level 9 (again if my memory of the USP is right)
> 
>It depends on what book you use.  The is another version in Fighting Ships
>that only has two turrets.

Sure. And the accompanying text points out that "The range of possible
system defense boats is large, if not actually infinite." In Traveller
naval parlance a boat is any spacegoing vessel that dosen't have a jump
drive. A battlerider is a boat. Indeed, I'm inclined to believe that most
SDBs are quite a bit bigger than both the published types. Obsolescent
battleriders would make excellent SDBs and any PE I ran would have most
of its planetary defense boats interchangable with my battleriders. (And
my tanker squadrons would be battlecarriers with rider-sized tanks).

>In any case, the one you site doesn't cost that much less than a Kinunuir.

I don't have that book with me, so I can't be specific, but surely it can't
cost more than a third? It's a third the size, its computer can't be more
than 2 grades higher, and it dosen't have a jump drive.

And the one you cite (less than 25% of the Kinunir's cost) has a model 9
computer. That makes it quite capable of dealing with merchant ships
several times its own size. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2050
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2051



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT product query
Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Who invented what
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: A tool for GM's
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother
Re: Ships' registry and Big Brother
Re: Imperium tech level changes?
Re: Industrial capacity backwards
Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Aslan Morality
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
EV2: The Website
Re: UH?
THUDDD 7 Update
MJ Doughtery
RE: Number of ships in the Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:57:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: CT product query

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Obscure question that's been nagging me for a while:  what were the
> adventures in the old Double Adventure #3, "Death Station/Argon Gambit"?
> I've never seen this one myself, nor read anything about it.  Can someone
> fill me in here?  Idle curiosity is the devil's coffee break, as you know=
.
>=20
- -Spoiler Alert-

Death Station is about a lab ship in orbit with an experiment in battle=20
drugs that has gone awry (i.e. was sabotized). Some of the crew still=20
live and make it through the ship as do the lab animals when the player=20
group arrives. The survivors have times of enhanced intelligence and=20
strength followed by periods of dementia.

I=B4d have to look up the Argon Gambit, as I do not think of using that one==20
for my players group. (The above will fit in well, as one of the player=B4s==20
characters has got part of a lab ship he has not seen very often the last==20
time)

This supplement(s) has also been translated into german (my home language).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Mark Seeman's DNA code

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 XatoKuom@aol.com wrote:

> << Sorry to correct you, but it's DNA. RNA uses U instead of T.
>=20
> You're quite right it is DNA, but it's not.  DNA wouldn't contain such a
> large number of Adenine bases in sequence.  This is similar to a message
> found on RNA which contains a polyadenylated tail that tells cellular
> mechanisms not to destroy said signal but rather let its code be transfer=
red
> into proteins.  Sorry about the earlier transgression.  Silly mistake!!!
>=20
Another explanation is possible: This one is artificial. As there is a=20
message in it, this fits.
Perhaps I=B4m missing some point, as I don=B4t get the full story behind it=
.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 06:21:05 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

Creating bitmaps shouldn't be a problem; merely copying the .ttf file to
the fonts directory should have let windows see it, but it didn't.  
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:35:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Who invented what

In mail you write:

> And der Roossians inwented Trilicali wheat,

That's "triticale". And it's a hybrid cross of wheat and rye. I've got
a #10 can of dry nitrogen packed triticale around here somewhere. (It
was a freebie)

The stuff on Star Trek was "quadro-triticale" (and later, in a cartoon
episode "quinti-triticale")

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:39:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

In mail you write:

> Try bouncing back and forth between PCs and Unix!  I keep trying to
> type unix commands at the DOS prompt. ;-)

Easy solution. Add the unix commands to the PC (they are usually
available) and use 4dos, so you can alias things. On the unix side, a
good alias file helps too.

su root
cd /
rm -rf

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:37:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A tool for GM's

In mail you write:

>     I just wrote a program called Galaxy Builder. It is intended for GM's of
> Sci-Fi rollplaying games. It generates a random section of space that you
> can view in 3d. It allows you to rotate and zoom the section however you
> want. You can edit all the characteristics of the stars, planets, and
> moons. 
>         Anyway check it out at: http://www.tform.com

What OS? And what kind of hardware does it need?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:53:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

In mail you write:

>         A few days ago I came across a blurb on Starship Troopers: The
> Gotching Abortion in one of those promotional movie mags they give away
> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect that much
> of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over female troopers when
> they're not all fighting bugs together.

I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:43:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

>>Kenji wrote:
>>
>>>Roderick wrote:
>>       You know, the more I think about it the more I think that the Sayat
>>really deserve canonization.  They're a pretty darn cool concept.
>
> You mean you want to !Saint! these people?!?  After what *they* came up with!

"Cannonized" (note the extra "n") is used jokingly to refer to the fate
of some of the losers in the Sepoy Mutiny. You load them into a *large*
cannon, or at least tie them across the business end. Then you fire the
cannon. Messy, but effective.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship's registry and Big Brother

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:

>SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>>When considering shipbuilding capacity, remember that yards can build
>>*above* the planet's tech level - eg Regina's General Products Yard
>>building Kinuir Class Bathtubs.
>>
>>As a related issue - what TL does the Book 2 CT starships system assume?
> 
>eh?
> 
>I don't remember that rule, tho' it makes sense if you accept the idea of
>standard parts.  Would you point it out for me so I can go over it?

That has been discussed before on the list. It's a discrepancy. The TCS rule
is that you can't build or repair a ship of a higher TL than the planet's
(BTW. you CAN repair jump drives at Class B starports, it just costs twice
as much. And you can maintain a ship at any Class A and B starport, regard-
less of planetary TL).

Possible ways to resolve the discrepancy is to increase the space TL of
Regina (note that Regina was classed as TL 10 in some of the early books
but that was quickly changed to 12). Another is to reduce the Kinunir's
TL. I do both; in my Traveller Universe Regina has a space TL of 14 and
the Kinunirs are TL 14.

A third possibility is to let Regina import the TL 15 parts and assemble
them/fit them into a TL 12 hull. I don't like that solution, since that
would add transportation costs, but I haven't done the calculations. It's
possible that Regina's lower labor costs will make it economical.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:10:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ships' registry and Big Brother

Erwin Fritz writes:

>I've always told my players that, in order for a starport to be able to
>repair/service their ship, that starport must be of at least the TL of
>the ship!

According to the rules you need the TL of the ship to repair it, but not
to maintain it.

>I guess I'll have to eat my words.

Or you could say that if you perform annual maintenance of a ship on a
planet with too low a TL, you have to pay for the transportation costs
of the spare parts (Double up according to _Striker_. Personally I would
use +10% per parsec's distance to the nearest suitable world).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:46:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperium tech level changes?

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> <snip>
>>Look what happened to IBM.  For a few decades "IBM" and "Computers" were
>>almost synonymous to the great unwashed.  Then they told two guys named
>>Jobs and Wozniack to take a walk...  They almost recovered, But then Bill
>>Gates blew into town, and Intel (founded by more IBM refugees) pulled the
>>rug out from under them.  IBM survived by virtue of it's shear size, but in
>>the public's mind, it's almost a non-entity.
> I used to think like this as well when I worked in a mom-&-pop
> computer store doing pc repairs.  After I got to the University and
> saw the IBM boxes they have here (not the pcs, the unix boxes, rs6000,
> etc. which they've built into the 'mainframe') I changed my opinion.
>
> Granted IBM still made a lot of bad marketing decisions (what was MCA
> after all, not that it was bad technology, but they never convinced
> anyone else to hop on the wagon!).  But it appears to me more that
> they decided to aim for the corporate market at the expense of the PC
> you-and-me type of market.  And only recently have they tried to get
> back into it (Acer is owned by IBM after all, and I've got one of
> those).  
>
> They are, after all, still charging $400+/hour for their techs.  But
> you can get one 24x7.  Which is what Corporate America wants.
>
> So as near as I can tell (I've got a buddy working for IBM out of
> Kansas City), IBM doesn't care what we of the great unwashed masses
> thinks.

And most of the "great unwashed" have little or no idea of what the
*current* generation of mainframes do. Things like run the airline
reservation systems (one of the biggest, ugliest, realtime databases
ever invented). 

Heck the "huge" amounts of data that folks are worried about for ship
registry is *not* that big (allowing for TL differences) compared with
things like the stock market (which runs on *minis*) and the airline
systems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:27:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Industrial capacity backwards

Robert Eaglestone writes:
>I once posted a rule-of-thumb for calculating starport order-of-magitude
>size, with some auxilary tables for starport hectarage and capacity, etc.
>What I didn't know was that a rule exists: spaceship support for one 
>week equals 1 ton per 1000 population.

That's not quite true, unless you're referring to a rule I don't know
about. The relevant rule is that the shipyard capacity of a world (with
a Class A or B starport) is 1 T per 1000 population. That is, the total
tonnage of all ships that the world can work on simultaneously is 1 T
per 1000 population. That is NEW construction and repairs. Maintenance
(if maintenance requires shipyard capacity) and replacements are hidden
from TCS players and would have to be in addition to that number.
 
>Milieu E:20
>===========
> 
>Terra         1827 C867966-7    Hi                 514    G2 V
> 
>Terra -- a backwater world during most of the 1st Imperium; 
>balkanized with no jump drive technology.  Not even a client 
>state of a pocket empire.  Very sad.
> 
>If it were a member of the Imperium, its starport could support 
>5,000,000 tons per week.  Right?

No, it could work on 5,000,000 T of ship at a time, provided the money
to do so was available. And provided its starport had been upgraded...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:53:30 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

>Do I have this wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that Intelligence
>is a modifier on a Strength improvement roll.

It actually does make sense (for me).
There are good and bad ways to weightlift/dieting/agility training etc and
INT could perhaps guide you right there. The reason bodybuilders are so
much bigger these days than for say 20 years ago is not only due to
steroids - they actually got better at training by doing research studies
etc. I'm not shure the MT rule could be an error nevertheless but for me it
would be really rewarding to give your superstrong dimwit PCs a hard time
increasing their STR because they're too stupid to train efficiently.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:12:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ships' Registry and Big Brother

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> replied:

>>SDM>
>> When considering shipbuilding capacity, remember that yards can build
>> *above* the planet's tech level - eg Regina's General Products Yard
>> building Kinuir Class Bathtubs.
>
> eh?
>
>I don't remember that rule, tho' it makes sense if you accept the idea of
>standard parts.  Would you point it out for me so I can go over it?

It's not a rule - more a statement garnered from various c-word sources.

CT adventure 1 - The Kinuir. General Products Yards have been building the
Kinuir on Regina (A788899-A in the supplement, TLC by Rebellion) and High
Guard (Book 5) gives the TL of the Kinuir as TL15 (F).

Now, the performance of the Kinuir would require a TL13 Jumpdrive. So,
either the components are manufactured elsewhere and shipped in, or yards
can manufacture at a higher tech level than their infrastructure. I
personally deal with this by allowing lower tech yards to buy in components
(at higher costs etc) for repairs, and assuming that Navy and Scout
Facilities can maintin TL15 ships.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:02:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

David P. Summers writes:
> 
>Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:21:35 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>Well, we already know that I don't agree that the percentage is
>>>as tiny as you describe
> 
>>Sure you do, you just haven't bothered to do the math yet ;-). You said
>>in another posting that you believe 12 ships are needed to safeguard a
>>planet and that a system will have an average of 5 places to guard.
> 
>[Deletions].
> 
>>you need 43.8 Teracredit per year to maintain them.
> 
>If we use the Kinunuir that you talked about when we were posting on this
>(and which is close to 1000 Tons),

1250 T. I switched to a 1000 T destroyer costing ~750 MCr at some point
when I was doing some calculations based on tonnage because it was more
convenient. I've stuck to them because a 1000 T destroyer is just as able
to deal with an armed merchant as a Kinunir. Still, the difference
shouldn't be that great.

>and taking your 10%/year (I think it will be more, but if you say
>it is the "canon" number), it costs 100 MCr/yr for each ship.

Well, 108 MCr.

>That's 1200 MCr/yr (actually, I think it would be three shifts, not two,
>but we will let that pass) per world or 6 TCr per system per year.

A teracredit is a million megacredits, not a thousand.
 
5*1200 MCr = 6,000 MCr = 6 BCr = 0.006 TCr.

>With about a 1000 systems in the Imperium, that is 6,000 TCr/year.

6 TCr.

>>The Imperial
>>budget for naval ships (regular, colonial, and planetary) amounts to 4500
>>Teracredits. So 600,000 of those ships would cost less than 1% of the budget.
>>Not very much less, I admit (0.97% actually)
> 
>At 6,000/year, it amounts to more than your budget.

And at 6/year it amounts to 0.13% of it.

>But even if it were 1%, that is already more than your original "minicule"
>amount (as you have come up an order of magnitude from your original 0.1 %).

True, because at every point I've overestimated, just to make sure no one
could reasonably carp about the end result. You don't need to provide
extra guards to all 10,000 worlds (because a lot of them would have
defenses of their own), you don't have 5 planets to guard in all 10,000
systems (and those systems that will have the most places will be the ones
with their own defenses forces), and you don't need Kinunirs or destroyers
to deal with armed merchant ships. I may not be able to get the total down
to 0.1%, but the true figure would be a lot less than 1%. And you know what?
Even if it WAS one entire percent, I still don't see how you could possibly
consider that too much to use _of an already existing, active force_. How
much of the US navy budget goes to defending your harbors and bases? 99%?
I kind of doubt it. 

>In any case, I feel (as I have mentioned before) this is a sidelight since
>the point isn't what %'age of the budget it is, it is what effort is
>justified by the losses being incured to piracy.

And as I have mentioned before, the percentage of the budget isn't the
point except at one remove. The point is the percentage of the available
forces (which can be estimated based on the budget) it would take to
suppress the pirates.
 
>>>and I don't agree that you can take out
>>>enough ships to stop piracy without hurting defense.
> 
>>And yet that is canon too. According to _Fighting Ships_ the Imperial Navy
>>can afford to split up _battle_ squadrons for individual deployment in
>>peacetime. They can certainly afford to split up cruiser squadrons too.
> 
>It depends on what you mean by "split up".  It could mean distributing
>to the top 10% pop worlds rather than distributing equally to
>ever single world with traffic.

Why in the universe would anyone split up a squadron in order to distribute
the individual ships to worlds that maintain scores and hundreds of cruisers
of their own? That makes absolutely no sense. The only reasonable thing to
do with a split-up squadron is to post them at worlds where they make a
difference.

>>Most convoys in Traveller would consist of a squadron of ships at each
>>point of the trade route. Which is exactly what you need to protect
>>ships from pirates in peacetime.
> 
>We have been through whether merchants would be willing the pay the price
>for this in peacetime as well in wartime.

And you are assuming facts not in evidence, to wit: 1) that the merchants
have any say in the matter, and 2) that the tax burden would be less if
the Imperial navy kept all its active ships clumbed together at the
high-population worlds.

>My opinion on it is the same.

I'm not in the least surprised.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:54 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

You can get a version of this that works on Windows up on my ftp site:
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav
There was a problem with the original conversion (it was developed on the
Mac) which I managed to get arond. This is _not_ the final version, nor the
official version. Just an interium version I ported over. It does, however,
work on Windows. The author is still working on the proper version.
Discussions over on TravLang.
Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:36:59 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

SD Mooney wrote:

[snip]
>so went off to chat with an Aslan Merc unit staying at the TAS hostel.

The Imperium is a very strange and scary place.

>She decided that she wanted to go on the pull and seduce an unattached
>Aslan male for an evenings pleasure (!)....
>
>So my question for the TML is 1) would Alsan have 'casual' sexual
>encounters, and if so 2) would they use contraceptives.... I await your
>replies with interest...

1a) Absolutely not; intimate fraternization with members of strange clans,
with people whose geneology isn't known and approved, is highly immoral and
wrong.

1b) All the time!  I mean, unless you're going to marry him/her and the
families/prides/clans are involved, it really doesn't make any difference,
does it?

1c) Depends; what does he look like?

2a) Never ever; withholding the right to reproduce from a male is a direct
insult to him and his relatives living and dead.

2b) Routinely!  You need to keep families small, to prevent dilution of the
lineage's resources; besides, you need to keep the bloodlines pure and
untainted by casual liaisons.

2c) Depends; what would his kids look like?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:36:53 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Peter Brenton wrote:

>>>Roderick wrote:
>>       You know, the more I think about it the more I think that the Sayat
>>really deserve canonization.  They're a pretty darn cool concept.
>
>You mean you want to !Saint! these people?!?  After what *they* came up with!

IC:  We're the greatest, aren't we?

OOC:  No worse than St. Spofulam, is it?  I'm sure you're familiar with his
iconography -- the spinning monomolecular-edged superdense halo and the
cherubim in battledress are unforgettable.  And who doesn't know about St.
Spofulam's Day, when all the little children are fed angeldust and strapped
to CAD workstations?

(Heh heh.  He said "came".  Heh.  And "up."  Heh heh.  Heh.)

>How are you going to get the Pope to go along with this?!? ;)

IC:  Pope?  <check Imperial Encyclopedia>  Why would a dead poet object?
Oh.  <recheck>  Ah!  Shepherd of the flock... heh heh, how ironic.  Hm...
rather intriguing.  <Mutter to colleagues> ...threat to cosmic security...
<mutter> ...expedited extraction... ...debriefing... <mutter> ...yes, yes,
excessive force... <mutter>.  So, er, where might we find this... "Pope"?

OOC:  It sounds like T4/MMT have a commitment to shun the like of the
Sayat, which, frankly, suits me fine.  They're up on _Freelance Traveller_
for public enjoyment; people are welcome to adapt and (further) mutate them
for personal gaming use.  I'd get a kick out of hearing about it if you do,
that's all.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 1997 14:49:51 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: EV2: The Website

>here's an idea; since I'd expect there to be a
>fairly prestidous outpouring of creativity over the next few days and EV was
>such a damp schwib. Hows about we gather all these vehicles together stick
>them on the web somewhere and do EV properly.

I'm willing to provide space, at least for the next while.  I have been
uploading all the vehicles I've designed to
<<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>  If
you email me the HTML files for your vehicles I can add them to the site.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:31:25 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: UH?

Harold D. Hale <hdhale@siscom.net> writes,
>   Baseball gets its start in the US in the 1850s as a varient of
>something called "rounders", which I believe is a British game.  

Stephen Jay Gould wrote a very interesting essay on the history of 
baseball - unfortunately I can't find the relevant volume right now.
To summarise: it is definitely a US game, it evolved rather than being 
invented, and there are several British forerunners.  Some of these were 
actually called baseball - it gets mentioned by that name in a Jane 
Austen novel (or was it a Bronte?).

I'll try harder to find the relevant volume if anyone's interested.

ObTraveller: nah.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:15:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7 Update

Just a reminder -- the entry deadline for THUDDD 7 (Heavy Fighter) is this
coming Saturday, November 8.  We have relatively few entries so far, so
this could be a small field, enhancing your odds for a prestigious THUDDD
win.  And now that Andrew's FFS2 spreadsheet is available, cranking out a
design is a *lot* easier.  So, let's see some more fighters!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:29:34 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: MJ Doughtery

MJD,

Give me a buzz.  I accidentally deleted your e-mail address.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:42:16 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: Number of ships in the Imperium

At 11:21 PM 11/2/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
>On Saturday, November 01, 1997 10:39 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen 
>[SMTP:rancke@diku.dk] wrote:
>> douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
>> >Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >Finally, why would a cruiser squadron in Glimmern Deep need Corridor
>> >ship data?
>> It wouldn't. Now let me ask you one in return: How many ships do you 
>> think will make it from Glimmern Deep (whereever that may be) to Corridor 
>>without being detected and registered by a navy patrol?

>> >Keep the information local, and updated locally.  It makes more sense.
>>
>> I agree. Your own sector and all adjacent sectors would do the trick. Or
>> just all systems within 40 parsecs. Any ship that manages to travel 40
>> parsecs without having to identify itself to anyone would definitely be
>> a rare bird.
>
>Shall we agree on a registry consisting of the subsector you are in, and 
>the adjacent subsectors (as a moving window) and put this debate to bed?

I would say it just a bit differently, though I agree in principle - a
registry exists, based on the three or four sigma travel distances of
ships.  (This is roughly 99.99%).  When I worked out the numbers, I got
that it was very unlikely for any ship to go more than one unprofitable
jump and still make more money than a single trip to a closer, lesser
destination.  You are also more likely to get good cargos if you know
someone on the world, thus I figured you would end up with the vast, vast
majority of the ships staying in a two or three parsec radius around a high
pop world.

Note: my numbers indicate that the whole sector, or the subsector with the
surrounding 8 both meet that requirement.

Aside: why such a large area?

If you have a registry that covers every ship you are likely to see, then
you save your patrollers time.  It also means that when you see the one in
ten thousand that is really trucking, then it might be worth investigating
it.  It is, after all, rather unusual, and just might be fleeing an
incident of piracy, or might have someone important on board who needs to
see that the Navy is on the ball.

Further, if our previous discussion indicated a thousand ships a day coming
from a big world, then the patrols are only interested in one ship a day,
and the backwater worlds need only care once a month, or once a year.

I suspect ships in my game might well have the entire database, because I
do not see strong reasons against it, but making the ship cost
modifications I mentioned in other posts might make that infeasible.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2051
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2052



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Passages
Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...
re:CT product query
Re: Aslan Morality
Re: Piracy mechanics
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Re: CT product query
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)
Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
Bilanidin Bold
Re: FF&S2 Spreadsheet
EV2: The Website
Re: Starship Troopers
Re: Bilanidin Bold
Re: Starship Troopers Site
unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)
Bilanidin-Bold for PC
Re: Starship Troopers Site
The rules of combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:41:03 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Passages

I was thinking over the ramifications of altering the ships costs, like I
have been planning to do, and here were some thoughts.

It is terribly unlikely that a merchant will go far away from the supply
worlds.  The M0 materials assume, falsely, imho, that a year trip is
economically feasible.  This is, if the FS data or anything like it is
used, not sensible.  There are no listed destinations that are even
remotely worth that level of effort and expense.

(Consider - at current ship prices, it takes a year of use of roughly
50-100 megacredits to ship 100 tons of stuff for a year, ignoring all other
expenses.  I find it hard to imagine that this is the best use of that
100MCr of capital, given that it could likely find a trade half as good
just two jumps or so away.)

In 1700, a three month trip made good sense, because there was a very
valuable port on the other end, and few destinations closer to stop at.  A
ship owner could make more money taking his ship out of service for that
long, because the closer choices were far worse.  To make the same
situation arise in Traveller, it has to be worth more to go that far, and
the ships would need to be cheaper, so that the one in a thousand ships who
might make that trip would represent enough to be noticeable.

By the bye, I am aware that most of this trade consists of traders trading
to traders, who might ship things farther.  This actually makes it worse,
because every transaction has to involve some inefficiency, so the trip of
one fusion plant from Sylea to West Nowhere has to generate even more money.

This is compounded by the incredible cost of a trip, far out of line with
the assumptions most people are making about star travel.  Present day
business travel costs ~1/30th of the salary of the typical business person
for a round trip ticket to most of the world.  Traveller travel costs about
the same as that person's salary, which means a star trip is a lot more
like taking a new job and moving, than taking a trip to see the outlying
office.

This is not a bad model, mind, but it does not fit the way many people seem
to play.  (Me, as an example)  For example, I believe douglas@teleport.com
wanted to have something like a third of the people in his universe have
taken a star trip at some point.  This can be done, but only if there is a
way to take a star strip that does not cost more than about 10-25% of the
PCGPP of the average citizen.

My current working solutions:
Gas giant refueling is very difficult, but can be done by any armored and
hardened ship.  Scouts and military vessels are.  This raises the number of
ships that will go to planets, and makes in system travel more likely.

Merchant ships cost somewhere between a tenth and a twenty fifth of their
present cost.  This lowers the cost of passage, and lowers the cost of
cargo.  With significantly cheaper cargo prices, shipping raw resources
becomes more likely, and it is possible for the value of something to be
larger than the cost to ship it for a year.

With other adjustments, out system cargo costs roughly 200Cr/t to go jump
1, 300Cr/t to go jump 2.

With other adjustments, in system cargo costs roughly 100Cr/t to take a one
week trip.

(These other adjustments will include crew salaries, as they seem a bit
high.  For example, a gunner makes over the average, and a pilot makes
seven times the average salary.  While this might be reasonable, I note
that present day ships that are far larger have much smaller crews.  To
make the model closer, it might be worth trying to drop either the crew
size or the crew cost.)

There are four classes of passage: steerage, low, medium, and high, plus
frozen.  Steerage involves being shipped literally as cargo, often with
sedatives to keep the people from moving very far or very fast.  The others
represent ever higher classes of luxury.  Anyone who has taken an overseas
plane flight in coach should have some feeling for low passage, while the
critter comforts of present day first class represent a middle passage.
The cost is the cost to the merchant for the space, while the price is what
they charge the ticket holder.

	steer	cargo	frozen	low	medium	high
space	0.5	1	1	1	2	4
cost	100	200	250	200	400	800
price	250	500	600	800	2K	10K

Note: the profit margin on a frozen passenger is lower than that on a low
passenger.  The reason for this is that the standard low unit is mounted in
a cargo bay, and can be added to a vessel quickly if no other cargo becomes
available.  Both steerage and frozen passage are often offered by cargo
vessels with little advance planning, while higher grades require
significant work to prepare for and implement.

TAS still provides high passage, and getting a high passage certification
is very important to those merchants servicing TAS members.  Often, a
merchant will take a TAS member for quite a few jumps in exchange for that
ticket, in return for the passenger not demanding a full time steward.

The average merchant ship is roughly three thousand tons, but a free trader
can make it pretty easily in the 100-500 ton niche.

The average peacetime military ship is a 5000t destroyer.

The average wartime military ship is the 30kt cruiser

The jump limit is now 2 AU, so that there is some space for pirates to
operate.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:16:47 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...

I can't seem to access the URL listed in your TML post...could you possible
send me a copy of the spreadsheet (in Excel, I guess...will Works 3.0 allow
it to be used?) to my email address?  

Thanks very much!!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:28:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:CT product query

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

>Obscure question that's been nagging me for a while:  what were the
>adventures in the old Double Adventure #3, "Death Station/Argon Gambit"?
>I've never seen this one myself, nor read anything about it.  Can someone
>fill me in here?  Idle curiosity is the devil's coffee break, as you know.

The adventures were "Death Station" and "The Argon Gambit".

;-)

DS is one of the scariest adventures that I have ever played in and
involves a labship, drugs experiments going wrong and possibly trips down
fuel tanks a la Aliens airshafts. Oh yes, the players get to investigate.

IIRC the Argon Gambit revolves around politics, specifically the Solomani
party. Anyone help here?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:57:33 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:32:36 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: Aslan Morality
....
>Now, what do the males do to relieve sexual tension? 
....
  Does it involve large balls of yarn, perchance? :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:20:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>SDM wrote:
>>System Defense Boat -
>>400 dt armoured hull
>>4 hardpoints carrying 2x triple laser  and 2x triple missile
>>Armour level 9 (again if my memory of the USP is right)
>
>It depends on what book you use.  The is another version
>in Fighting Ships that only has two turrets.  In any case,
>the one you site doesn't cost that much less than a
>Kinunuir.

Fair point. I didn't look in Fighting Ships.

Kinuir 1080 MCr (volume discount)
Dragon Class (CT Traders and Gun Boats) 780 MCr (*undiscounted* so in
volume approx 625 MCr)
2 turret SDB 255 MCr (Volume discount)

Only point that I would make is that the smaller SDB has a factor 9
computer (not 5fib) and factor 13 armour which makes 50% of normal (none
pulse laser, none nuke) hits have no effect, so it will still cream most
pirates pretty quickly.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:06:24 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

I knew keeping in touch w/ my old manager at the theater where I worked at
would pay off...

I managed to talk him into building up the print of "Starship Troopers" he is
scheduled to open on Fri...just to ensure it wasn't damaged, of course :-)
 All I will say is this:  It's NOT the book Heinlien wrote, but it is still
an very good entertaining movie.  The effects are fabulous...it's not quite
as over the top of some of Verhoevens films (or did he have anything to do w/
Roboflop 2???).  IMHO, it's well worth the $7.50 for the ticket...and should
charge up even the most jaded Trav group!!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:16:05 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >Do I have this wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that Intelligence
> >is a modifier on a Strength improvement roll.
> 
> It actually does make sense (for me).
> There are good and bad ways to weightlift/dieting/agility training etc and
> INT could perhaps guide you right there. The reason bodybuilders are so
> much bigger these days than for say 20 years ago is not only due to
> steroids - they actually got better at training by doing research studies
> etc. I'm not shure the MT rule could be an error nevertheless but for me it
> would be really rewarding to give your superstrong dimwit PCs a hard time
> increasing their STR because they're too stupid to train efficiently.
> 

Ah, I see the logic now. So the modifiers on the improvement task
would be Strength and Intelligence. I can understand that.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:17:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CT product query

At 07:38 PM 11/3/97 +0800, you wrote:
>Obscure question that's been nagging me for a while:  what were the
>adventures in the old Double Adventure #3, "Death Station/Argon Gambit"?
>I've never seen this one myself, nor read anything about it.  Can someone
>fill me in here?  Idle curiosity is the devil's coffee break, as you know.

Argon Gambit was a political intrigue thriller set in the Solomani Rim.
Not the best adventure I ever played, the players were led by the nose
through most of it.

Death Station took place aboard a Lab Ship that derelict, with the usual
Horrible Bug That Turns People Into Homicidal Maniacs.

These are both AFAIR.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:08:25 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

At 03:48 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Ethan wrote:

>  The Mobile Infantry is here to stay. - "Death from Above!!" 
>
>I have to wonder if the writers or web site authors have any idea
>what the basic idea of Mobile Infantry is. Unless you've recruited
>a platoon of NBA players, I doubt "Death from Above" is an appropriate
>slogan.

"Death From Above" used to be the motto of the 44th Airborne Company
(Training) at Jump School.  I still have the shirt somewhere.  It's been an
unoffcial motto of Airborne and Air Assult forces since WWII

On a side note, the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne
Division still proudly bears the nickname given to it by the Germans..
"Devils in Baggy Pants."

ObTrav:  What sort of unit nicknames show up in your Traveller military
units?  My favorite is the 3407th Marine Regiment "Hell on the Half-Shell"

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:27:13 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SnapShot/TNE (was Trav Cmbt Sys)

At 02:17 PM 11/3/97 EST, you wrote:
>--- James "Assume the Position" Lindsay wrote:
>If you ask nicely, perhaps Doug Berry might be willing to send you
>copy of the T4 version we are in the middle of working on (although I
>believe he has all the playtesters he needs so don't hold your
>breath).
>--- end of quote ---

>ooh! ooh! wheres my checkbook? please say this is gonna be a genereal
release!

Ah, that just warms my poverty stricken heart....

Right now, At Close Quarters is being working on diligently.  I'm waiting
to hear back from several playtest groups before going any farther.

ACQ is a decendant of Sanpshot/AHL, and uses Action Points.  It's based on
my experiences as an infantryman, along with research on what really
happens in firefights.  (Several San Francisco Police Officers have been a
great source of information, as well as being great players in my game.)

Right now, I've been in contact with Andy Lilly about having BITS publish
it, and would be more than willing to see IG put it out.  The final product
will have complete combat rules for small groups of people and vehicles and
an extensive armory and equipment list.

I have no idea when it will be finished.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:48:32 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

I posted this message once before but I never saw it, so this is a
second attempt...

(* DELURK *)

I've always wondered about how naval fleets manage to arrive in a system with
enough cohesion to begin an attack.  According to the rules, they will arrive
over the course of 3 days!  Something tells me the Imperium would not look the
way that it does if attacking fleets took that long to arrive...

I have never seen a reasonable answer to this question that matches what we
know about the universe.  I've seen people mention 'synchronizing' the jump
calculations, but that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  This synchronization is
free, takes no extra time, no extra risk and no trade off.  Why is it that it's not
more commonly used for multiple ship missions, both civilian and military?

Eventually I gave up on this as a bad deal, when I was awake that is. The
other night I had a dream.  In this dream I was enlightened.  I'm going to share
this enlightenment with you :-)

Now, this whole house of cards I'm going to construct depends on a few key
assumptions, and some careful, adept handwaving, so bear with me as I set
this up.  First a few facts:

a)  You can't survive jumping at under 10 diamters (ship destroyed).
b) Under 100 diamters the ship will almost always misjump.
c) After 100 diameters you have a standard jump (+/- 1 day) with a small chance
of misjump.

And now the inspiration.  A simple question, posed by a navigator in a dream.
What happens at 1000 diameters?

Thrusters are affected by gravity, so are  jump-drives?  What if 100 diameters
was just the 'reasonably safe' limit?  What if you moved out far enough the
+/- 1 day went away?  What if that distance was 1000 diameters?  What if at
that distance the error went from +/- 10% to +/-1%?

The time required to travel to 1000 diameters far outweighs the benifits for
traders.    The only people this would benifit would be military operations
involving large numbers of ships.  Any comments?

(* LURK *)

l8r,
    Chris Olson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:09:45 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Bilanidin Bold

"Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com> wrote...

>Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

>Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>> Jory M. Earl wrote:

>> > Rob Prior wrote:

>> > > I've tried to get to =
<<http:\\www.geocities.com\Area51\8275\Bilanidin.sit>>
>> > > all morning, but keep getting my connections refused by the =
server.

>> > > Could someone please email me the Mac TrueType version of this = font?

>> > > Thanks.

>> > you need to reverse the "\" marks to "/", then you can logon. =20
>> Shoot. I *always* do that. Durn peecees and their backwards slashes =and
>> cee prompts. It's ingrained in my muscle memory when I use a peecee.=20
>> I apologize for my hasty posting... another reason why everyone should
>> use Macs ;-P

>Don't waste your time man, I cannot get these fonts to install at all,
>even the .ttf file.  windows 95 refuses to see them for some reason.

The discussion that preceded your comment was with reference to
the MAC versions of the fonts; Windows won't see them.  I had no
trouble with the PC version of it; unfortunately, I don't
remember where I got it from; it _wasn't_ the Geocities site.
I'm pretty sure that Jo Grant has the info, though.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:16:12 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Spreadsheet

Due to some translation problems, the Excel version of my FF&S spreadsheet
had some severe problems. I have now fixed (I hope) those problems. If you
downloaded an earlier version, please get this newer one.

It can be found at my web site, www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm. Just
travel to the Drydock page.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:39:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: EV2: The Website

The Commander's BureauX Agents report the following:

>Date: 04 Nov 1997 14:49:51 GMT
>From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Subject: EV2: The Website

>>here's an idea; since I'd expect there to be a
>>fairly prestidous outpouring of creativity over the next few days and EV 
was
>>such a damp schwib. Hows about we gather all these vehicles together stick
>>them on the web somewhere and do EV properly.

>I'm willing to provide space, at least for the next while.  I have been
>uploading all the vehicles I've designed to
><<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>  If
>you email me the HTML files for your vehicles I can add them to the site.

Interesting idea.  I have published the original FF&S2 spreadsheets I 
submitted for EV to my website. 

(http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/grav.htm).  They could use some 
tweaking in the HTML(they were origionaly text), but otherise ok.
If you want I can e-mail them to you.

 -------------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:47:13 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>         A few days ago I came across a blurb on Starship Troopers: The
>> Gotching Abortion in one of those promotional movie mags they give away
>> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect that much
>> of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over female troopers when
>> they're not all fighting bugs together.
>
>I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
>*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.

I wouldn't be too quick to criticize this movie based on the content of its
web site. Reuters posted a fairly glowing review of the film. They said it
was a great action film with excellent special effects.

From what I've read of the plot and characters, it also pays a fair amount
of respect to the intent of the original author, Robert Heinlein. The
characters and plot are much the same as they are in the book. I'm not too
pleased about the lack of powered armor, but for a movie that already cost
the studio well into nine figures, I'm sure that would have been a luxury
they could not afford.

It should be an entertaining sci-fi.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:09:41 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Bold

I found it at 'ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/bilinadi.zip' and
it works fine for me in '95.

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> >Don't waste your time man, I cannot get these fonts to install at all,
> >even the .ttf file.  windows 95 refuses to see them for some reason.
>
> The discussion that preceded your comment was with reference to
> the MAC versions of the fonts; Windows won't see them.  I had no
> trouble with the PC version of it; unfortunately, I don't
> remember where I got it from; it _wasn't_ the Geocities site.
> I'm pretty sure that Jo Grant has the info, though.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:09:43 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

Leonard Erickson writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>         A few days ago I came across a blurb on Starship Troopers: The
>> Gotching Abortion in one of those promotional movie mags they give away
>> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect that much
>> of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over female troopers when
>> they're not all fighting bugs together.
>
>I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
>*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.

I totally agree -- I mean, EVERYONE knows that the male troopers fight with
the bugs OVER the female troopers.  What sorta morons wrote this thing?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:02:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Easy solution. Add the unix commands to the PC (they are usually
>available) and use 4dos, so you can alias things. On the unix side, a
>good alias file helps too.
If I spent more time in dos than I do now that I have win95 I would.
I've thought about .bat files and compiled bat files and other things.
<g>

>su root
>cd /
>rm -rf

Very funny!  Although I did, until recently, apparently have the
access to nolog root!  <Sigh> But they rewrote some of their system
utilities for us and recognized the oversight.

 ________________________________________
|  Jim Heivilin, Help Desk               |  "Gunner, target left, 1600 
|  Campus Computing, (573) 882-5000      |    meters, Iraqi T-72, ..."
|  University of Missouri at Columbia    |      Unknown M1 TC,
|  ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu          |         Feb, 1991
- ------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:16:58 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Bilanidin-Bold for PC

Firstly, I offer my abject apologies for uploading the old version of
the font for PC, which didn't work.

I promise, it works now.

<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/bilani.zip>

Forward slashes, too! Yeah!

ETA of next Bilanidin release, with numerals, and special characters for
aa, ii, uu, kh, sh...

November 15

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:12:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
<snip>
>> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect
>> that much of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over
>> female troopers when they're not all fighting bugs together.
>
>I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
>*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.
>

The only people more clueless about military matters than journalist
are Sillywood ... er ... Hollywood!  Ever watch 'JAG'? (the
prosecution rests.)

NOTE: I wouldn't want to mess with the female troopers, women are MUCH
more vicious than we are!

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, Help Desk, Campus Computing, (573) 882-5000       
  University of Missouri at Columbia, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu   
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To our friends who are still in the desert!" 
			Ancient Foreign Legion toast
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:16:32 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: The rules of combat

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------35C9AD395D33C48E0C621218
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It's humor...

> The Rules of Combat
> > >
> > >   1. If the enemy is in range, so are you.
> > >   2. Incoming fire has the right of way.
> > >   3. Don't look conspicuous: it draws fire.
> > >   4. The easy way is always mined.
> > >   5. Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.
> > >   6. Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are
> > >      dangerous.
> > >   7. The enemy invariably attacks on one of two occasions:
> > >        1. When you're ready for them.
> > >        2. When you're not ready for them.
> > >   8. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else
> > >      to shoot at.
> > >
> > >   9. If you can't remember, the claymore is pointed at you.
> > >  10. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush.
> > >  11. Don't draw fire, it irritates the people around you.
> > >  12. The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire
> > >      is incoming friendly fire.
> > >  13. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> > >  14. If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
> > >  15. When in doubt empty the magazine.
> > >  16. Never share a fox hole with anyone braver than you.
> > >  17. Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing.
> > >  18. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
> > >  19. Mines are equal opportunity weapons.
> > >  20. A Purple Heart just proves that were you smart enough to
> > >      think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough
> > >      to survive.
> > >  21. Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last and don't
> > >      ever volunteer to do anything.
> > >  22. The quartermaster has only two sizes: too large and too small.
> > >  23. Five second fuses only last three seconds.
> > >  24. It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area
> > >      you just bombed.
>



- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________



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From: cje@europa.COM (curt erickson)
Subject: Rules of Combat
content-length: 1837

Friend of mine, with a military type brother, sent me this..
The Rules of Combat
> >
> >   1. If the enemy is in range, so are you.
> >   2. Incoming fire has the right of way.
> >   3. Don't look conspicuous: it draws fire.
> >   4. The easy way is always mined.
> >   5. Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.
> >   6. Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are
> >      dangerous.
> >   7. The enemy invariably attacks on one of two occasions:
> >        1. When you're ready for them.
> >        2. When you're not ready for them.
> >   8. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else
> >      to shoot at.
> >
> >   9. If you can't remember, the claymore is pointed at you.
> >  10. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush.
> >  11. Don't draw fire, it irritates the people around you.
> >  12. The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire
> >      is incoming friendly fire.
> >  13. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> >  14. If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
> >  15. When in doubt empty the magazine.
> >  16. Never share a fox hole with anyone braver than you.
> >  17. Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing.
> >  18. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
> >  19. Mines are equal opportunity weapons.
> >  20. A Purple Heart just proves that were you smart enough to
> >      think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough
> >      to survive.
> >  21. Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last and don't
> >      ever volunteer to do anything.
> >  22. The quartermaster has only two sizes: too large and too small.
> >  23. Five second fuses only last three seconds.
> >  24. It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area
> >      you just bombed.


- - ------- End of Forwarded Message


- ------- End of Forwarded Message




- --------------35C9AD395D33C48E0C621218--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2052
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2053



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Bio-ware
Re: Bilanidin Font
Re: Piracy---the new era!
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
Re:CT product query (may contain spoilers)
Re: Piracy mechanics
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: A tool for GM's
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: EV2: The Website
CSC: Cohiba-class Speedboat
Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...
Re: Bilanidin-Bold for PC
Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: Piracy mechanics
S*X
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:35:05 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> I would say it just a bit differently, though I agree in principle - a
> registry exists, based on the three or four sigma travel distances of
> ships.  (This is roughly 99.99%).  When I worked out the numbers, I got
> that it was very unlikely for any ship to go more than one unprofitable
> jump and still make more money than a single trip to a closer, lesser
> destination.  You are also more likely to get good cargos if you know
> someone on the world, thus I figured you would end up with the vast, vast
> majority of the ships staying in a two or three parsec radius around a high
> pop world.
>
> Note: my numbers indicate that the whole sector, or the subsector with the
> surrounding 8 both meet that requirement.
>
> Aside: why such a large area?
>
> If you have a registry that covers every ship you are likely to see, then
> you save your patrollers time.  It also means that when you see the one in
> ten thousand that is really trucking, then it might be worth investigating
> it.  It is, after all, rather unusual, and just might be fleeing an
> incident of piracy, or might have someone important on board who needs to
> see that the Navy is on the ball.
>
> Further, if our previous discussion indicated a thousand ships a day coming
> from a big world, then the patrols are only interested in one ship a day,
> and the backwater worlds need only care once a month, or once a year.
>
> I suspect ships in my game might well have the entire database, because I
> do not see strong reasons against it, but making the ship cost
> modifications I mentioned in other posts might make that infeasible.

Just because we agreed to limit the area does not mean that I agree that every
ship is going to have a complete ship's registry.  I was pretty clear in my
earlier post where I stated that Class A, B, and C starports, Navy bases, and
capital ships.

Consider all the information that a ship has to have in it's data banks.
Library data, Sector information (including detailed information down to the
Planetary level), biographies for VIPs in the sector, dossiers on potential
adversaries (military and civilian), IFF data for sector and planetary navies,
as well as various allied (but non-Imperial) military fleets, cryptological data
for interfacing with any of the forces mentioned above.  Protocols for
interacting with civilians of, literally, hundreds of different cultures.
Military information including detailed contingency plans (in the event of
conflict), fallback and rally points,  supply caches, etc.  Medical, scientific,
and general knowledge to supply the captain and crew with the means to construct
solutions for literally any problem that they may encounter, when they are the
sole representative of the Empire.

I agree that known pirate ships, and ships on the 'skip' list will be listed in
the general ship's registry, but I don't think that every ship, down to the
sub-light intra-system lighters and shuttles, will be.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:50:31 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...

At 01:53 PM 11/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Well, it hasn't even been a day and I've already updated my FF&S
>spreadsheet to version 1.1.
>Thanks. And continue to let me know if there are any problems...

Ok here comes the problems....

I have excel 97 for windows, the excel 5 spreadsheet has vast areas in the
tables that have the #N/A filling them up. Which then effects the other
sheets in the workbook. Some Quattro Pro function did not convert over to
excel 5. If you can try version 6 or later if Quattro Pro has that ability.
My version of excel will not convert the Quatto Pro version that you have
posted.

Also having to look up the varlous codes for the entry fields is a great
pain. Look at Ananti's(sp) FFS1 spread heets for a good resolution for same.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:00:36 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

The originally distributed tt font was incorrectly converted. A converted
version was put up in my ftp site:
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/bilanidi.zip. - 

I've just installed it ok on Win '95 - thanks to everyone for your help -
highly recommended.

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:19:40 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bio-ware

In a message dated 01/11/97 14:42:04 GMT, you write:

<< Here's a selection of some stuff that I've put together as part of 
 infor sheet(s) for some new players to my Universe.
 
 Please let me know if it comes through
 Thanks 
 Pat >>

Received with thanks - nice ideas, not really suitable for my race (gas giant
sentient race using telekinesis to alter genetic structure) but some very
good ideas

Again thanks,

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:33:34 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font

Jo Grant did some extra conversion to make this font work in Windows.  
It is on his FTP site as Bildani.zip, and it works perfectly on my 
system. 

The URL for the Windows version of the ttf file is:

ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/bilanidi.zip.


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:36:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy---the new era!

Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:51:25 +0000, "Garth Dighton" <gdighton@elite.net>
>Math Error...
>1200 MCr/yr per system times 5 planets per system is only 6000 MCr or
>6 GigaCredits, not 6 TeraCredits. (6 TCr is 6 million MCr). The
>standard assumption is 10,000 systems in the Imperium (which is
>where Hans is getting his overall budget), for a total of 60 TCr per
>year. (Out of 4500 TCr in taxes, yields 1.33% of the budget).

Right.  I skipped "Giga".  Mea Culpa.  I'm not sure how we
got to 4500TCr in taxes (when the old number I remember from
Hans was 2,500 Cr) but that is a small effect.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:33:26 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

> Does it generate star systems (as per Scouts)

yes.  Clever algorithm <doffs cap>


> detail every planet in the system (as per WBH),

yes.

> generate trade data, and also do animal encounter tables?

Not the version I have, although it does list the major resources on the World 
builder page along with temperatures, atmosphere main components and so on.


> If the macro sheet is called WBH

it is.  Sounds like this is one of your creations.  i hope that you don't mind 
that I e-mail the windows version to the three TMLers who have asked for it?  i 
have included a "presumed to be by Rob Prior" credits page in the file!

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 22:38:49 +0000
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re:CT product query (may contain spoilers)

>Obscure question that's been nagging me for a while:  what were the
>adventures in the old Double Adventure #3, "Death Station/Argon Gambit"?

Death station is one of my players best remembered adventures. A Lab ship 
researching new drugs goes off line, players are sent in to find out what 
happened. It includes lab ship plans for the dungeon crawl, good 
"monsters", just the right level of horror, industrial espionage and a 
great detective story. Sadly when my players saw the title of the book I 
was using for the adventure they became very paranoid...

The Argon Gambit - well I never ran it. Set in the Solomani Rim, it says 
in the book "an involved poloitical intrigue that the players will become 
ensnared in against there will". Not even an illustration breaks the text.

David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:37:32 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:49:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>In any case, the one you site doesn't cost that much less than a Kinunuir.
>
>I don't have that book with me, so I can't be specific, but surely it can't
>cost more than a third?

It is listed, from memory, at about 2/3 the cost.

>And the one you cite (less than 25% of the Kinunir's cost) has a model 9
>computer. That makes it quite capable of dealing with merchant ships
>several times its own size.

Computers can be upgraded and modest sized merchants can have
as many weapons.  When you add in the fact that, since the
pirate takes the initiative, he has to be able to win no
matter what tatical situation the pirate puts him in, I
find his level of fire power quite questionable for the role.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:39:13 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

> >  The Mobile Infantry is here to stay. - "Death from Above!!" 
> > 
> "Death From Above" used to be the motto of the 44th Airborne Company
> (Training) at Jump School.  I still have the shirt somewhere.  It's been an
> unoffcial motto of Airborne and Air Assult forces since WWII

Sure, I've heard of "Death from Above" before, but it seems like
an odd slogan for people designated as mobile _infantry_. If they
were called "drop troops", "Jump troops", "Airborne Assault Troops"
or something like that, sure, it would be a great slogan.

But from watching the ads, it seems to me like most of the mobile
infantry in "Starship Troopers" live up to their name - they run 
around on the ground a lot. The way the ads play, their slogan
should be "Death from... *crunch* *snap* blark! gurgle..." as a big
bug chews on someone's head.

Ethan "Death from just off to the left and slightly above your shoulder" Henry
- --
Ethan Henry                       ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:06:08 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: A tool for GM's

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: A tool for GM's


>In mail you write:
>
>>     I just wrote a program called Galaxy Builder. It is intended for GM's
of
>> Sci-Fi rollplaying games. It generates a random section of space that you
>> can view in 3d. It allows you to rotate and zoom the section however you
>> want. You can edit all the characteristics of the stars, planets, and
>> moons.
>>         Anyway check it out at: http://www.tform.com
>
>What OS? And what kind of hardware does it need?
>
And where is it. I went to the above site and only saw a blank, black page?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:08:57 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:02:17 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
[Math errors deleted...]

>And at 6/year it amounts to 0.13% of it.

Actually, as Garth pointed out, I made two errrors and the
final number is 1.3% (more if you use the old 2,500 TCr
budget you mentioned rather than 4,500 TCr).

>>But even if it were 1%, that is already more than your original "minicule"
>>amount (as you have come up an order of magnitude from your original 0.1 %).

>True, because at every point I've overestimated, just to make sure no one
>could reasonably carp about the end result.

Well, my statement was that is it not as miniscule as you said.
An order of maginitude certain qualifies as a significant change.
Also, in addition to the fact that large organizations really
don't ignore any cost because it is "too small", the fact
is that 1 or 2% of a budget is a significant expenditure.
(esp. if it is being used for any specific purpose, like
stamping out one type of crime). NASA's budget, for which
some cry a huge waste of money, is about this amount.
(Heck, the SETI search, which was large enough for
politicians to sigle out for elimination, was a fraction
of that).  It was debatable that a large organization
would consider 0.1% not worth worrying about.  It seems
to me clearly not true when you start getting into the
>1% range.

[Various basis number in disagreement....]
>I may not be able to get the total down
>to 0.1%, but the true figure would be a lot less than 1%.

And I could could push it up to 5% if you replace your approach
with the one I used when I replied a month (?) ago.

>Even if it WAS one entire percent, I still don't see how you could possibly
>consider that too much to use _of an already existing, active force_.

Well, you _know_ I don't agree that you can use an already exisiting
force without diminishing the effectiveness of that force for
its primary (military) use.   I'm not sure what the point in
reasserting your view as if it were fact is, unless you either want
me to just give in because you keep raising it or you somehow
expect that I will be willing for the both of us to simply
repeat the points we didn't agree on before.

>>It depends on what you mean by "split up".  It could mean distributing
>>to the top 10% pop worlds rather than distributing equally to
>>ever single world with traffic.

>Why in the universe would anyone split up a squadron in order to distribute
>the individual ships to worlds that maintain scores and hundreds of cruisers
>of their own?

Sigh.  _You_ are the one that advocates taking military forces
and using them to stop piracy.  I don't know if personal navies
for systems are "canon" and I don't care.  Militarily you
want to concentrate forces into fleets and about high
value targets (a large system generates more forces, but
is also a large target).  If you want to stop piracy
you have to take those forces and spread them out to
every world, in every system, that has traffic.

>>We have been through whether merchants would be willing the pay the price
>>for this in peacetime as well in wartime.

>And you are assuming facts not in evidence, to wit: 1) that the merchants
>have any say in the matter, and 2) that the tax burden would be less if
>the Imperial navy kept all its active ships clumbed together at the
>high-population worlds.

Well, no.  _You_ are the one that is trying to prove something
and assuming facts to justify it.  I'm willing to agree that
these facts are uncertain and are one of several assumptions
that can be cast one way or the other to make piracy possible
or impossible.

Also, regarding number 2, this is another way of proposing the
same "free lunch".  We don't agree that the military ships
can be used to stop piracy without harming their mission
and hiding the issue in a tax question isn't going to
change that.  (It also has nothing to do with the point
you are answering and bringing up unrelated points
that we have already covered before is just a waste of
time.)

The tax burden would not necessarily be less if you took ships
away from their military mission and used them for something else.
Except that presumably one thought that military mission was
important enough to build those ships in the first place, so
that you now need to build new ships to replace the ships you
took away.  Otherwise, you could just scrap them and lower the
tax rate.

>>My opinion on it is the same.
>
>I'm not in the least surprised.

Of course.  Since you haven't given may any reason to change it.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:40:14 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)

Rob Prior wrote:

>
>Maybe I shouldn't finish FFS2 after all.   My mental equilibrium is too
>fragile for what you twisted souls would likely come up with :-)

	Actually, if I can make a modest proposal...  We've got CSC to do
vehicles, and we've got SAL to do ships...  but we don't have any programs
to design small arms with <innocent, harmless grin>.

	You could always start FF&S2 with the chapter on small arms and
build off of that...


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:34:44 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

Leonard wrote:

>
>In mail you write:
>
>>         A few days ago I came across a blurb on Starship Troopers: The
>> Gotching Abortion in one of those promotional movie mags they give away
>> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect that much
>> of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over female troopers when
>> they're not all fighting bugs together.
>
>I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
>*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.


	Absolutely.  The more I read about this thing the more pessimistic
I get.  Sorta like when they cast Cruise and Pitt, in Interview With The
Vampire, only this time the problem isn't the miscasting, it's the complete
disregard for the book.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:56:06 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: EV2: The Website

Rob Prior wrote:

>
>>here's an idea; since I'd expect there to be a
>>fairly prestidous outpouring of creativity over the next few days and EV was
>>such a damp schwib. Hows about we gather all these vehicles together stick
>>them on the web somewhere and do EV properly.
>
>I'm willing to provide space, at least for the next while.  I have been
>uploading all the vehicles I've designed to
><<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>  If
>you email me the HTML files for your vehicles I can add them to the site.

	Excellent!  I've been hoping that somebody would archive all the
designs that have come through here.  Some of them have been brutally cool,
others brutally funny (like the Big Blue Machine and the Jet Bong).  They
really deserve saving, not to mention publication so that non-net-enabled
Trav players can benefit from them.  Expect an email blitz from me shortly.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:42:11 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: CSC: Cohiba-class Speedboat

Cohiba-Class Speedboat (TL7)
Designed by R.D.Elliott

Summary:
     10.00 displacement ton wedge streamlined;  107 tonnes;  MCr 1.76
Chassis:
     140 kL wedge streamlined (16 m long x 6.4 m wide x 4.1 m high);
Structure: 977 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 2.5 cm thick, 2
armour rating

Performance:
     18.0 MW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant, water-cooled;  Fuel:
40.5 kL of high-grade hcarb (40.5 tonnes), 18 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 18.0 MW high performance watercraft;
Maximum Speed: 181 km/h;
Range: 3250 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: helmsman, Throttleman, Navigator, 2 guys with ACR-7s;  5
crew stations;  4 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL7, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 50 cm per km of range
     Active Subregional Sonar (100 W)  Resolution: 50 cm per km of range
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, recreation space, wet bar, kitchen for
2 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     12.2 kL of cargo space

The Cohiba is a sleek, high-powered speedboat of a type commonly developed
on mid-tech wet planets for sporting use.  On balkanized worlds where
certain low-volume high-value commodities may be embargoed or outlawed in
some jurisdictions, craft such as these may be found meeting black market
demand.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:54:52 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Uhhhh...FF&S spreadsheet V1.1 available...

At 03:41 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>At 03:50 PM 11/4/1997 -0600, you wrote:
>>I have excel 97 for windows, the excel 5 spreadsheet has vast areas in the
>>tables that have the #N/A filling them up. Which then effects the other
>>sheets in the workbook. Some Quattro Pro function did not convert over to
>>excel 5. If you can try version 6 or later if Quattro Pro has that ability.
>>My version of excel will not convert the Quatto Pro version that you have
>>posted.
>>
>>Also having to look up the varlous codes for the entry fields is a great
>>pain. Look at Ananti's(sp) FFS1 spread heets for a good resolution for same.
>>snip<<
>
>The translation problem has been fixed. Re-download the spreadsheet.
>
>I can only output Excel 5, not Excel 97. Besides, there are still a lot of
>Excel 5 people out there (like on the Macs).
>
>I'm not familiar with the spreadsheet you mentioned for FF&S1

I have just downloaded the latest excel version from you webpage,
translation in the tables is still FUBAR ie beam pointer, primiative drive,
fuels, meson gun all in the tables section. All read #value.

I will try to find Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> oops found part of
it it is
http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/MPW-97r2.zip  this one is for
MPW(man Portable Weapons)

Look around on his web page you should find several excellant FFS1
spreadsheets that he has made. I hear that he is working on a FFS2 series
of spreadsheets too.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:18:54 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin-Bold for PC

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>ETA of next Bilanidin release, with numerals, and special characters for
>aa, ii, uu, kh, sh...
>
>November 15

And there is much anticipation...

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:35:50 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

Those who have not read Contact, by Carl Sagan should skip this message...it
won't ruin the plot, but it will spoil some of your enjoyment.
























The discussion of hiding a mesage in DNA reminds me of a schtick in Contact. 

The heroine discovers that when you compute pi to a gazillion decimal places,
in base something or other, it turns into a string of ones and zeros, and
contains a message.

Neat notion, eh?

Loren Wiseman
        GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:33:31 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:20:29 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Only point that I would make is that the smaller SDB has a factor 9
>computer (not 5fib) and factor 13 armour which makes 50% of normal (none
>pulse laser, none nuke) hits have no effect, so it will still cream most
>pirates pretty quickly.


Give that there are merchant ships with significantly more
than two turrets, computers can be upgraded and (most
importantly) this ship has fight in the tatical situation
the pirate puts them in, I don't agree.  But I guess
we will have to agree to diagree on this.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:35:22 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: S*X

A couple of comments 

Comment #1:
Aslan are not cats. They are no more closely related to cats than they are to
eggplants. They do not love catnip, they do not meow, and they do not rub
their chin glands on everything in sight. 

FWIW, I think Wildstar's take on the situation comes closest to my own. 

Comment #2:
The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for debate. It
is a major drive in Humans, but there is no reason why Aslan should be
subject to the same drives (and no reason for them not to -- this is the sort
of thing GDW preferred to leave up to individual referees). Present day
Terrans have a wide variety of sexual customs and behaviors, and we may
assume that other races are equally (if not more) varied.

Comment #3
> The Zhodani, for example, would never go to a prostitute, because of
> their dislike for any untruly.

I see no reason for the Zhos to frown on the use of prostitutes (indeed, they
are probably a form of therapist in Zhodani culture).

> But if two of them come together it might
> be a night like no other - mentally linked toegether.

Not all Zhodani are psionic. Many of those who have psi talents have no
talent for telapathy. 

For those who care, I believe the sexual habits of every Traveller alien have
been a topic for argument that has used up almost as much bandwidth as
pirates and (dare I say it) big rocks. Don't open the floodgates again...some
people are still wearing their underwear too tight : )

Loren Wiseman
       GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:43:22 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

At 03:18 am 11/04/97 GMT, Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
>>I have converted the family of (Mac) Excel spreadsheets for World 
>>Builders into a single Excel 95 spreadsheet ... I can't remember who 
>>wrote the original 
>
>This could well be mine.  Does it generate star systems (as per Scouts),
>detail every planet in the system (as per WBH), generate trade data, and also
>do animal encounter tables?  If the macro sheet is called WBH, then it it
>probably my set of spreadsheets.  

	AHA! Now I know where they came from ... I downloaded them from GEnie
many moons ago, and they're still posted on my Web site. Guess I oughta go give
credit where credit is due...

	Now if I could just remember who provided the converted copies for me
to post ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2053
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2054



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aslan Morality
Re: EV2: The Website
The origin of psionics? (long and only tangentally related to Traveller)
Spreadsheet Problems
re: Starship Troopers
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: CSC on wintel boxes
Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format
Re: Piracy -- the new era!
Re: Pocket Empries
That three-letter word
Re: Pocket Empries
Nobility - apologies to 'Yes Minister'
Imperium Tech Level Changes
Re: Piracy mechanics
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
re:S*X
Re: Piracy mechanics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:51:54 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

> From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)

> 1a) Absolutely not; intimate fraternization with members of strange clans,
[great tripartite analysis deleted]

I think that that's exactly how an Aslan female would reason through the
issue.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:00:06 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: EV2: The Website

> Rob Prior wrote:
>
> >
> >>here's an idea; since I'd expect there to be a
> >>fairly prestidous outpouring of creativity over the next few days and EV was
> >>such a damp schwib. Hows about we gather all these vehicles together stick
> >>them on the web somewhere and do EV properly.
> >
> >I'm willing to provide space, at least for the next while.  I have been
> >uploading all the vehicles I've designed to
> ><<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>  If
> >you email me the HTML files for your vehicles I can add them to the site.
>
>

This is an incredible idea.  There is so much creativity on this list, I've always
thought that it is a shame that a lot of it has a shelf life of a day or two.  You
send your stuff to the list, and it is seen only by those TMLers tuning in that
day, then poof, it's no longer available to anybody.

I've always wanted to see a "Best Of" TML archive--one that takes all of the house
rules, the NPC's, the adventures, the stories, the equipment, the alien race
write-ups, the world and system details and puts them all together in a searchable
database somewhere.

What if you wanted to find something on the planet Tureded in the Spinward
Marches.  To my knowledge, there's never been any offical description of the
planet in any Traveller product to date, except for the line or two about it in
the library data section of the MT computer game "Quest for the Ancients".

Yet, I have detailed this world.  It would be nice to store this someplace.

I envision a site where, if you want to find a particular item, you can type it
in, and there you have multiple takes on it by different GM's.

Like Regina.  There's a lot that's been written about it, and I'm sure different
GM's have different takes on the planet when they detail it in their campaigns.

It's a shame to let all of this creative effort go to waste.  We should start a
TML archiveing project (which is, of course, much different from the standard TML
archives).

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:15:57 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: The origin of psionics? (long and only tangentally related to Traveller)

I found this interesting tidbit on the 'net. It is from Martin Gardner,
"Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science", Dover Publications: New York,
1957 (1st ed 1952). Chapter 22, "Dianetics":

"Dianetics has not been mentioned in Astounding Science Fiction for many
years. Editor Campbell has found something even more revolutionary --
"psionics," a combination of electronics with psi (psychic) phenomena.
Campbell first wrote about it in an editorial, "The Science of Psionics,"
Astounding, Feb., 1956. The editorial asked his readers if they would like
to see a series of articles about psychic electronic machines. Campbell
described psionics as "honest non-scientific research," pointing out that
"Buddha, Jesus, and President Eisenhower" also are excluded from the
category of "honest scientific research" since they "use methods other than
those used by physicists in their laboratory work." 

"After a resounding "Yea!" from his readers, Campbell ran the first
article, "Psionic Machine -- Type One" in his June, 1956 issue. The article
was written by himself. It tells how to build a Hieronymous machine,
patented in 1949 by one Thomas G. Hieronymous, at that time a resident of
Kansas City, Mo., and tested with positive results by "nuclear physicist"
(see above)
Campbell. The machine was designed by the inventor to analyze the "eloptic
radiation" of minerals, a new type of radiation discovered by Hieronymous.
Among electronic engineers, Hieronymous' patent (No. 2,482,773) is passed
around for laughs, and considered in a class with Socrates Scholfield's
famous patent of 1914 (No. 1,087,186), consisting of two intertwined
helices for demonstrating the existence of God. 

"Campbell thinks Hieronymous' theory is "cockeyed" and he has also made
several basic changes in the construction of the machine. Hieronymous
claimed that his detector worked on photographs of minerals. Campbell
hasn't bothered to test that. Nevertheless, the machine Campbell built did
detect something "not detectable by any standard form of meter," and he
knows there is no "jiggery-poker" because he constructed the thing himself.


"In a lecture on psionics at the New York Science Fiction Convention, 1956,
Campbell displayed his second and "more precise" version of the Hieronymous
machine. It works just as well, he claimed, without the electric power
supply. But it won't work, he added, if there is a burned-out vacuum tube!
The device is beautifully subjective. You turn a dial with one hand while
you stroke a plastic plate with the other. The plate is supposed to feel
"sticky" when the dial reaches a certain setting, the setting varying with
each individual. Some people get the proper tactile sensation the first
time they try it. Willy Ley and others at the convention couldn't feel a
thing. Campbell solemnly informed his audience that the machine does not
work well with either scientists or mystics. Five mystics tried it, he
stated, and got only random responses. His own personal "hunch" is that the
machine is detecting something "beyond space and time." Or as he expresses
it in the October, 1956 issue of his magazine, "there is a reality-field
other than, and different in nature from, that we know as Science." 

"Another Campbell "hunch" is that the device operates because of certain
"relations" between its parts. Someone at the lecture stood up and asked
the obvious question: had Campbell tried  varying the circuit or even
removing it altogether to see if the device still worked? No, Campbell
hadn't tried that. He was just an amateur, he explained, "having fun" with
psionics, and he felt no obligation to try all the experiments that are
possible, particularly without getting paid for it. 

"No one of course expects a researcher to perform all possible experiments
with a device before he publishes results. But one does expect at least a
minimum of experimentation to insure fairly adequate controls. As it is,
psionics promises to be even funnier than dianetics or Ray Palmer's Shaver
stories. It suggests once more how far from accurate is the stereotype of
the science fiction fan as a bright, well-informed, scientifically literate
fellow. Judging by the number of Campbell's readers who are impressed by
this nonsense, the average fan may very well be a chap in his teens, with a
smattering of scientific knowledge culled mostly from science fiction,
enormously gullible, with a strong bent toward occultism, no understanding
of scientific method, and a basic insecurity for which he compensates by
fantasies of scientific power."

<Heyyy... Was that last paragraph an insult?>

Joseph Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:54:12 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Spreadsheet Problems

Sigh. Modern technology can be a pain sometimes.

I apologize to those of you who have had trouble with my FF&S spreadsheet
excel version. I am a user of Quattro Pro myself, but I knew the majority
of users out there want Excel. So, I saved it in that format. Apparently,
some of the functions (notably the @fixed() and @concatenate() ) don't
translate right, becuase Excel users have had some problems.

I tried to save to Lotus 1-2-3 (so Excel users could import), but I get a
message that some of my strings would have to be truncated. This doesn't
sound like it would work either.

If anyone has any ideas on how to make this work, I'd be interested (other
than the obvious "use Excel!". I don't consider that an option).

Again, I'm sorry that this isn't working out the way I wanted...

For those of you interested, if you downloaded the Excel version, you can
fix the #value cells (I think) by doing a search & replace on FIXED( and
CONCATENATE(, replacing them with @FIXED( and @CONCATENATE(. I don't know
WHY this works, but it seems to.

If anyone has any insight on the matter, I'd love to hear it.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:47:11 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Starship Troopers

I wouldn't be too quick to criticize this movie based on the content of its
web site. Reuters posted a fairly glowing review of the film. They said it
was a great action film with excellent special effects.

>From what I've read of the plot and characters, it also pays a fair amount
>of respect to the intent of the original author, Robert Heinlein. The
>characters and plot are much the same as they are in the book. I'm not too
>pleased about the lack of powered armor, but for a movie that already cost
>the studio well into nine figures, I'm sure that would have been a luxury
>they could not afford.

No, it's a long way from the intent of the author. Farther than even
the most pessimistic could have possibly imagined.

I can remember when people were initially asking "will it include 
the political aspects?" Once it became apparent the answer was no, 
discussion changed to "will it include powered armour"? Or "Will
the basic plot be intact"?

All this was misguided. It turns out what people should *really* have
been asking was "Will it contain teen romance and a co-ed shower
scene?" It's been a long time since I read the original, but I'm
fairly sure there was no shower scene, and that romantic rivalry
was not a major factor in the plot.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:51:01 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

>         Absolutely.  The more I read about this thing the more pessimistic
> I get.  Sorta like when they cast Cruise and Pitt, in Interview With The
> Vampire, only this time the problem isn't the miscasting, it's the complete
> disregard for the book.

I've decided that the movie's title and the names of certain characters
are only coincidentally the same as Heinlein's novel, but that there is
no other connection.  In that spirit, I'm looking forward to an evening
of blood, guts, explosions, and more blood with my little brother.  Then
we're going to the movie.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 97 23:37:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CSC on wintel boxes

On 11/04/97 at 12:54 AM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

>>Turns out Executor didn't recognize the file's names on an HPFS partition.
>>When I copied them to a FAT partition Executor saw them, and I was able to
>>get them unstuffed and installed. The interface seems pretty clunky (of
>>course, the Mac's might be too, I don't know), but CSC works fine. 

>I assure you, Eris, the clunkyness was due to the "clean-room" nature of 
>the program, and is no reflection of the actual Mac experience. I tried 
>it today. 

Executor's interface isn't the niftyest, but that it works at all is
amazing.

>What's with that green circle when highlighting icons? The 
>icons remind me of clumsy Windows 2. I bet they were unwilling to "swipe" 
>the actual mac icons and risk litigation. 

You know, that's exactly what it reminds me of, Windows 2.0 or maybe the
old GEM interface.  

Rob, my reference to "clunky interface" referred to Executor's not CSC's.
;-> 


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 03:44:12 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilders programs or spreadsheets in Lotus 123 Format

>> generate trade data, and also do animal encounter tables?
>
>Not the version I have, although it does list the major resources on the
World 
>builder page along with temperatures, atmosphere main components and so on.

These were separate spreadsheets that I included on the same disk.


> Sounds like this is one of your creations.  i hope that you don't mind 
>that I e-mail the windows version to the three TMLers who have asked for it?
 i 
>have included a "presumed to be by Rob Prior" credits page in the file!

I think it is mine.  And if it is, I'd like the credit to be definate, not
presumed, and included in the file itself, not just the letter.  

Possibly I'm a bit cranky on this, but I've seen one of my shareware stacks
uploaded to the Internet with someone else's name substituted for mine, and
after that I've been a stickler for credit.  Besides, those spreadsheets took
me many hours to create.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 22:52:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Piracy -- the new era!

On 11/03/97 at 04:46 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

>>What would need to change to make piracy at the frontier a hazardous,
>>but potentially profitable, undertaking?  How would you set up a
>>successful pirate?

Interesting question.

>1) Make civilian ships cheaper, both relative to military ships and in
>   absolute terms. This would make pirate ships cheaper to run and
>   increase the number of potential victims.

Yes, and/or make military ships more expensive in both absolute and
relative terms.  I think we agree on the hows you list later in this post.

<snip>

>   3a) Increase the number of systems without increasing the number of
>       inhabited systems, 

Several folks have recommended this.  If you want 3d, do 3d, but it's more
complicated than I want to get involved with.  Increasing the number of
"uninteresting" systems is a good idea, though.

>   3b) Let incoming ships precipitate out at 1000 diameter limits instead

TOO MUCH! Good idea, but too much!

Hans, in the Sol system 1000 diameters from Sol is over 9AU, somewhere
between Jupiter and Saturn.  That's a *little* far unless you are going to
boost your ship's velocity.  A 1g ship will take 195 hours to travel in to
1AU, and a 6g ship will take 80 hours.  It would take a 600g constant boost
to reduce the time to about 8 hours!

You might have better luck with 250 diameters, out just beyond the
asteroids.  That's a pretty long journey for 1g ships in to 1AU (78 hours),
but you wanted more time.  BTW, a 6g ship will take about 32 hours from 250
dia out.

>   3c) Allow ships to track and intercept ships in jumpspace.

Nope, don't like that one.

>4) Introduce a stealth field or cloaking device.

If you can come up with one that doesn't do *too* much violence to physics
let me know.  I suppose that if you can potentially extract energy from the
vacuum it might be possible to inject it.  <g> I've got some general
problems with that, but haven't completely thought it out yet.

>5) Make the number of military ships the Imperium _can_ have smaller.

How?  Much more expensive?  Many fewer inhabited (and less densely
populated) planets?  A Naval Treaty with the surrounding powers?  <ha!>

> 5b) Introduce what I have dubbed the MISS factor. MISS stands for
>'Military Inefficiency Spending Syndrome' and refers to the (possibly
>mythical) tendency of militaries to pay more for their needs than a civilian
>company would. 

Hum, that's the Golden Hammer Syndrome.  It's not mythical, it's all too
real.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:03:16 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pocket Empries

Do any of you Pocket Empires owners have any ideas on quantifying the vague
military values for the "forces" in the game?  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 01:39:36 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: That three-letter word

Loren Wiseman wrote:
>Comment #2:
>The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for debate.

This is a very good point.  As a matter of fact, I'll get up on a soapbox
and generalize it:  Just because Humans do something one particular way
doesn't mean that Traveller aliens (even 'human-like' aliens like Aslan and
Vargr) will do the same thing that same way.  They may do it in a totally
different way, or they may do something else entirely.

The interesting part about aliens in Traveller is looking at why humans
do what they do, and then trying to figure out ways that might be different
for aliens.  Not different for the sake of being silly or odd, but different
for some reason that makes sense in terms of alien biology or social
structures.

>It is a major drive in Humans, but there is no reason why Aslan should be
>subject to the same drives 

Right.  And when working things out, you generally have to start from an
assumption (in my case "Aslan females have a sex drive"), use the known facts
about the race (such as the 3:1 female-to-male ratio and what we know
about Aslan society and naming), and proceed to a solution that makes some 
sort of sense.  This applies to just about everything you'd want to know
about 
an alien race - this is the way that "classic" hard SF works.

>(and no reason for them not to -- this is the sort
>of thing GDW preferred to leave up to individual referees).

For those of you that are curious, here's what I've done when the 
question has come up:
Major Races:
  Humans: We know about those humans, right?
  Aslan: Roughly similar to humans, but drive stronger in females than males.
  Vargr: High-SOC individuales get more chances to mate.  Both sexes find
    sex pleasurable, but sex drive is based on seasonal factors (higher and
    lower at various times of the year).
  Droyne: They're not telling, other than that it requires 6 droyne of the
    appropriate castes, and a ceremony that was prescribed by Grandfather.
  Centaurs: The K'Kree are rather reticent on this topic.
  Hivers: Have sex ("shake hands") constantly, but don't seem to notice or 
    care.
Minor Races:
  Dolphins: The horniest creatures in known space (males and females both).

>Present day Terrans have a wide variety of sexual customs and behaviors, 
>and we may assume that other races are equally (if not more) varied.

This points to another pitfall when dealing with aliens in a SF game.  Most
referees tend to play an alien race as one huge monoculture.  Humans are not
like that - the society and behavior of Humans can vary radically from
location to location.  Most Traveller referees recognize that a farm
boy from Rouie will have a different outlook from a kid from the belts 
of Glisten.  Unless there's some reason or mechanism that creates a unified 
culture*, aliens can vary as much as humans do.

* And some Traveller aliens do have such a mechanism.  Both the Hivers and
  the Aslan intentionally promote a uniform culture accross their areas of
  space, and both races expend a significant amount of time and energy
  (in the case of the Hivers, by manupulation; the Aslan tend to use 
  military force) keeping their cultures as homogenous as possible, given the 
  realities of interstellar communication.

>For those who care, I believe the sexual habits of every Traveller alien have
>been a topic for argument that has used up almost as much bandwidth as
>pirates and (dare I say it) big rocks. 

I dunno, Loren.  ;-)  I made what (I thought) would be a pretty controversial
post, and got nearly no private replies, and only a couple here on the
list.  There's more bandwidth being devoted to complaining about Starship 
Troopers and looking for fonts, and I think the piracy debate is the clear
bandwidth leader at the moment.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:06:08 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empries

At 01:03 5/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Do any of you Pocket Empires owners have any ideas on quantifying the vague
>military values for the "forces" in the game?  
>
I posted some values a while back on the list. Here they are.
>X-Sender: chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:29:17 +0800
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy
Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM


>Ok, I'm not going to get embroiled in this debate seriously, 
>however I have noticed something coming up over and over again:
>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>> And according to TCS and _Striker_, the
>> Imperium figured that they needed a lot of 'cops'.
>
>Has it ever come up that TCS and Striker might
>just be wrong? I mean, I know they're canon, but
>who says that either of them make the slightest bit
>of sense? Hans' arguments seem to center on extrapolations
>from rules in two supplements that have nothing
>to back them up save their "canon-ness".
>
>Why should the economic rules in TCS or Striker be
>accepted?
>

I think you get the same problem in PE.  I picked a copy of PE the other
day, and have been working on harmonising the military system with WTH,
Striker, INH, TCS, & a host of other MT/CT/TNE material.  I have not got far
yet, but I think at this stage that any consistency will be purely
coincidental:  
For what its worth, at TL15 on an appropriate world, an RU = 5000 MCr, and a
(puny) A1D1T0J4 Starship unit will cost (1*50+1*50+8*50)= 500 Ru or approx 2
500 000MCr.   Enough for lots of little ships, or  a couple of Batrons of
old Tigress class BBs (CT) or about 6-8 really big BBs in TNE, or 1-4 BBs
from Starships of the Imperium (or whatever it was called) in MT.  
Interestingly, Since all units in PE have the same strength across TL, the
smae units costs 2,275,000MCr at TL14, and 3, 000,000 MCr at Tl 13.  Whilst
it is true that as TL decreases, effectiveness decreases AND cost increases,
(in accordance with FF&S v1/2), I do not know if this works out in any of
the starship combat rules in the same proportion as it does in PE, but I may
check this out with BL and BR.
If you only want to build SDBs they cost (for A1D1) 100 RU or about 50 000
MCr worth.  

To put this into perspective: for a Tl 13 Pop 9 (actually 2x10exp9) world
(all calculated according to PE) which had about 4% spent GWP on Military
gave approx 648 RU spent on maintenance, or a force size of 216 RU.  If only
..3 of this were assigned to the imperial navy (see below) for consistency's
sake, this would be 64.8 Ru on maintenance if inerstellar military.  If we
were maintaining A1D1J8 (Jump 4 capable starfleets)which cost 30 Ru each we
could maintain 2 of them, call it A2D2J16, This has a value (see above) of 2
x 3 000 000 MCr or 6 000 000 MCr (in local credits, starport Type A)[If all
was spent on interstellar military, approx 21 000 000]

The same figure for TCS are approximately 2 000 000 000  x 500/1 000 000 or
1 000 000 MCr and can be multiplied by up to 10 to account for the gradual
construction of the fleet or 10 000, 000 MCr.  (Imperail navy only)

For striker/INH these figures are:
2 000 000 000 x 3/100 (3%) x 18 000/1 000 000 x .3 (for imperial forces
only- not including system defence of this world) or 324 000MCr or for the
biuggest fleet (as per TCS above) 3 240 000 MCr.

Note that this is only a 2x10EXP9 world...
ERRORS PROBABLE

 It doesn't seem to matter what system you use, the imperium has ENORMOUS
resources at its dispposal. 
>                                Cheers,
>                                        Colin
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:13:30 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Nobility - apologies to 'Yes Minister'

I can't resist quoting one of the best sitcoms ever made: 

KCMG = 'Kindly Call Me God'
GCMG = 'God Calls Me God' 

MB 5/11

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:26:25 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Imperium Tech Level Changes

In past discussions, this topic has ended up in an impasse and/or
flamewar. I believe that tech levels in Milieu Zero follow
the Vilani system (ie use jump drive technology as indicator for tech
level) - note that this suited the Vilani, since they controlled J-drive
technology throughout the First Imperium, and by their 'tech level'
standard the Vilani were superior! 
Of course, the Terrans caused substantial problems by having a
somewhat retarded level of J-drive technology, but more advanced
capabilities in a range of other sciences. 
By the time the Vilani worked it out...too late. 
Absorbing the Vilani Imperium gave the Terrans the 'missing bits' of
technology, which returned their technology to a 'solid' TL11 or TL12
where they had been deficient before. The 'Vilani TL System' could then
have been roughly applicable to the Rule of Man and later regimes. 

MB
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to rekindle a previous flamewar. I
am as heartily sick of personal abuse as the next TMLer. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:26:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:37:32 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics
....
>Computers can be upgraded and modest sized merchants can have
>as many weapons.  When you add in the fact that, since the
>pirate takes the initiative, he has to be able to win no
>matter what tatical situation the pirate puts him in, I
>find his level of fire power quite questionable for the role.

Hello,
  Yes, but upgrading computers costs money, which if it were 
available as cash at some point would obviate the need to
engage in piracy (though not necessarily the desire...). The
economic return issue rears its ugly head, as well as why no
one would simply tag such a grossly over-equipped merchant as
a potential security risk.

  While I support the possibility of part-time pirates looking
for targets of opportunity, I find suggestions of their interest
in challenging purpose built small warships highly dubious. There
is no cargo, and no ship to take in the (highly) unlikely case
that they win.

  If the 200 ton /60 MCr traders represent the typical free trader,
then what would the maximum practical free trader be for operation
as a corsair? Could a 400 Dt J-2 design function profitably as a 
free trader while mounting hardware capable of fighting off a
Type T (?) patrol vessel?

  PS - for further pursuit of firepower issues, hard numbers as to
maximum practical size of merchant-pirates, relative TL's, and
ship combat systems will be needed. I'm currently projecting based
on TL 12 equality, for CT/High Guard.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:03:24 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Those who have not read Contact, by Carl Sagan should skip this message...it
> won't ruin the plot, but it will spoil some of your enjoyment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of hiding a mesage in DNA reminds me of a schtick in Contact. 
> 
> The heroine discovers that when you compute pi to a gazillion decimal places,
> in base something or other, it turns into a string of ones and zeros, and
> contains a message.
> 
> Neat notion, eh?

Let's just hope that this was not in two-base... B-) (I have read the
book, but a loooong time ago.) 

Mikko Parviainen
- -- 
A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining
and wants it back the minute it begins to rain.
                -- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:50:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:S*X

Loren wrote:

>FWIW, I think Wildstar's take on the situation comes closest to my own.

Agree with that.

>For those who care, I believe the sexual habits of every Traveller alien have
>been a topic for argument that has used up almost as much bandwidth as
>pirates and (dare I say it)
>big rocks. Don't open the floodgates again...some people are still wearing
>their underwear too tight : )

I raised the question originally (mainly due to events in my home campaign)
and I've found the responses very useful. I'm probably going to adopt
Wildstar's response as a basis for my campaign. Thanks to everyone who
responded...


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:45:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:


>Give that there are merchant ships with significantly more
>than two turrets, computers can be upgraded and (most
>importantly) this ship has fight in the tatical situation
>the pirate puts them in, I don't agree.  But I guess
>we will have to agree to diagree on this.

I agree that this SDB is weak, but it should handle most Free Trader size
pirates. Probably you'd want 2 or more for any corsairs. (The computer
upgrade for the pirate to go anywhere near meeting the level 9 computer on
the SDB would need a power plant upgrade too in High Guard).

But I agree with you that this discussion is getting nowhere, and that we
all appear to have selected our trenches. As a result, I don't intend to
post again on it as I suspect the rest of the TML is bored by now! Have
fun...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2054
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2055



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Astrophysics question
Re: Aslan Morality
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Cloaking devices (was Re: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: CT product query
Weapon Ranges in FF&S
Re: That three-letter word
X-TEK 10ton Meson Pod
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
Re: That three-letter word
Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification
Pocket Empire Force Values

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Astrophysics question

I'm working on an evil idea, but I need to know how long it takes for a
neutron star to get rid of the gas nebula. As I understand it, at that
point it shouldn't be making "pulsar noises" that are noticeable at any
great distance, right?

Also, what would it look like once you get close enough to image it,
and what sort of rotation rate would be expected? 

Other details like mag field stregth at various distances would be good
too.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:06:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aslan Morality

In mail you write:

>>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:32:36 -0500
>>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>>Subject: Re: Aslan Morality
> ...
>>Now, what do the males do to relieve sexual tension? 
> ...
>   Does it involve large balls of yarn, perchance? :)

No. Why do you think they spend so much time *fighting*?

Can you say "sublimation" for Uncle Sigmund, boys and girls?

:-)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:52:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

> IC:  Pope?  <check Imperial Encyclopedia>  Why would a dead poet object?
> Oh.  <recheck>  Ah!  Shepherd of the flock... heh heh, how ironic.  Hm...
> rather intriguing.  <Mutter to colleagues> ...threat to cosmic security...
> <mutter> ...expedited extraction... ...debriefing... <mutter> ...yes, yes,
> excessive force... <mutter>.  So, er, where might we find this... "Pope"?

Don't worry, Sister Evangeline has been dispatched to help you.
(very obscure Comico reference :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:14:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

In mail you write:

>> So many times I have
>>seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
>>for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.
>
> This is where my stratagy of hedging my bets comes in. Get one of each and
> network them using TCP/IP .... :-)

Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.

For that matter, is there a way to get my PCs to talk TCP/IP and still
run Netware Lite on top of it? Or tell me how to get the same level of
file and device sharing.

While you are at it, tell me how to network my Aplle II clone and my
TRS-80s with the Mac and PCs. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:21:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

In mail you write:

>>Do I have this wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that Intelligence
>>is a modifier on a Strength improvement roll.
>
> It actually does make sense (for me).
> There are good and bad ways to weightlift/dieting/agility training etc and
> INT could perhaps guide you right there. The reason bodybuilders are so
> much bigger these days than for say 20 years ago is not only due to
> steroids - they actually got better at training by doing research studies
> etc. I'm not shure the MT rule could be an error nevertheless but for me it
> would be really rewarding to give your superstrong dimwit PCs a hard time
> increasing their STR because they're too stupid to train efficiently.

More likely INT was chosen as being the closest match to "will". It
takes a lot of willpower to keep up on excercise programs!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:39:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Cloaking devices (was Re: Piracy -- the new era!)

In mail you write:

>>4) Introduce a stealth field or cloaking device.
>
> If you can come up with one that doesn't do *too* much violence to physics
> let me know.  I suppose that if you can potentially extract energy from the
> vacuum it might be possible to inject it.  <g> I've got some general
> problems with that, but haven't completely thought it out yet.

Well, one possibility is negative matter. It's got a whole host of
handling difficulties, and manufacturing it should be a real pain (In
theory, you should *produce* energy by making it, but the same theory
would also have it being "easy" to create).

On the down side, I can't see why negative matter production should be
easier than using antimatter for power. Maybe it's something that the
control of nuclear force that leads to dampers also makes possible.

One "neat" effect for damage to ships using it is "loss of
containment". If negamatter hits normal matter (or antimatter!) they
both canel each other. No radiation, no nothing. Just *gone*. 

I *think* that it'd be a great "heat sink", but we (the gearheads) will
have to play with the idea for a bit to see just *how* good it might be.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:39:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Easy solution. Add the unix commands to the PC (they are usually
>>available) and use 4dos, so you can alias things. On the unix side, a
>>good alias file helps too.
> If I spent more time in dos than I do now that I have win95 I would.
> I've thought about .bat files and compiled bat files and other things.

Well, you might want to check out the Win95 version of TakeCommand (a
4dos equivalent). While I haven't messed with it, it's supposed to be
very useful (gives you ther ability to do *wWindows* "batch files" for
one thing).

>>su root
>>cd /
>>rm -rf

> Very funny!  Although I did, until recently, apparently have the
> access to nolog root!  <Sigh> But they rewrote some of their system
> utilities for us and recognized the oversight.

I heard of someone who accidentally did the equivalent of that. And
since he was still logged in, he quickly manged to stop it, but found
that most of /bin was toast. He then had to very carefully browse thru
what remained of the filesystem to find enough utilities to replacement
the deleted files from backup....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:45:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

In mail you write:

> Those who have not read Contact, by Carl Sagan should skip this message...it
> won't ruin the plot, but it will spoil some of your enjoyment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The discussion of hiding a mesage in DNA reminds me of a schtick in Contact. 
>
> The heroine discovers that when you compute pi to a gazillion decimal places,
> in base something or other, it turns into a string of ones and zeros, and
> contains a message.
>
> Neat notion, eh?

Also thoroughly trashed on the net back when the book first came out.
You see, pi's value is a matter of *definition*. That is, regardless of
the characteristics of the universe, it will always have the same value
because its value derives from basic definitions of mathematics (not
even geometry!). 

Among other things, it's related to e (base of the natural logarithms)
in several ways. The one I recall is:

                i      -pi/2
               i   =  e

That is: i to the ith power equals e to the negative one-half pi power.

It's a neat idea, it's just not *possible*. 

Also, I *think* (I may be wrong about this) that *any* sequence of
digits will turn up in *any* irrational number if you carry it out to
enough digits. It's a sort of "monkeys with typewriters" effect. So
that kills it too.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:59:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> <snip>
>>> free in the theatres.  One of the cast was quoted to the effect
>>> that much of the plot involves the male troopers fighting over
>>> female troopers when they're not all fighting bugs together.
>>
>>I hope that everyone in the armed forces jumps down their throats for
>>*that* bit of silliness. That's *beyond* stupid, that's *insulting*.
>>
> The only people more clueless about military matters than journalist
> are Sillywood ... er ... Hollywood!  Ever watch 'JAG'? (the
> prosecution rests.)

And in any case, if the military loosens up enough to allow
"fraternization", then you are likely going to have a noticeable
percentage of the troops interested in the *same* sex. After all, if
regs allow it, one thing combat soldiers of *any* sex are not is *shy*!

> NOTE: I wouldn't want to mess with the female troopers, women are MUCH
> more vicious than we are!

No comment.

> "To our friends who are still in the desert!" 
>                         Ancient Foreign Legion toast

"You have joined the Legion to die. The Legion will send you where you
 can die."
		(supposedly a sign in Legion orderly rooms)

Substitute "Marines" for "Legion" in the above to get a sign that *is*
found in CoDominium Line Marine orderly rooms.

"March or die!"
		Old Foreign Legion "slogan"
		CD Line Marine slogan

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:24:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

In mail you write:

> I've always wondered about how naval fleets manage to arrive in a
> system with enough cohesion to begin an attack.  According to the
> rules, they will arrive over the course of 3 days!  Something tells
> me the Imperium would not look the way that it does if attacking
> fleets took that long to arrive...

Depends on *which* rules you use.

> I have never seen a reasonable answer to this question that matches
> what we know about the universe.  I've seen people mention
> 'synchronizing' the jump calculations, but that leaves a bad taste in
> my mouth.  This synchronization is free, takes no extra time, no
> extra risk and no trade off.  Why is it that it's not more commonly
> used for multiple ship missions, both civilian and military?

As I recall, it *does* take extra time. And it reduces the spread to
something like +/- 30 minutes.

> The time required to travel to 1000 diameters far outweighs the
> benifits for traders. The only people this would benifit would be
> military operations involving large numbers of ships.  Any comments?

It doesn't work that well for the military either. At 1000 diameters,
you have to worry about the *star*, not just the planet (actually, in
some systems you have to worry about the star even at 100 diameters).

That makes the jump limit for the Sol system (for "synchronized" jumps)
9 AU. As someone pointed out when 1000 diameters was suggested for
something else, that's *weeks* at high acceleration. The enemy has time
to do almost anything. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:31:12 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

>The only people more clueless about military matters than journalist
>are Sillywood ... er ... Hollywood!  Ever watch 'JAG'? (the
>prosecution rests.)
>
>NOTE: I wouldn't want to mess with the female troopers, women are MUCH
>more vicious than we are!

The final NOTE quoted is so typical of male military bulshittism that I'd
say offhand it has to come from some of the sillywood productions - Top gun
for instance.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:22:51 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: CT product query

>Argon Gambit was a political intrigue thriller set in the Solomani Rim.
>Not the best adventure I ever played, the players were led by the nose
>through most of it.
>
>Death Station took place aboard a Lab Ship that derelict, with the usual
>Horrible Bug That Turns People Into Homicidal Maniacs.
>
>These are both AFAIR.

The Argon gambit adventure was one of the most interesting adventures I've
ever ran as there isn't really a solution for the PC in the adventure
itself. I'd like to see more of these brains/detective style adventures a
la Argon gambit and Murder on Arcturus station where the adventure is
basically a plot with motivation for all the major NPCs. More work for the
ref but thats OK. The Jason Grant character in Argon gambit was so
impressive according to my my players that I brought him along as a Naval
Intelligence boss in my Spinward marches campaign until one of my PCs
retired him (shot in the back at 100+ m from an pistolshot).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:12:02 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Weapon Ranges in FF&S

It has come to my attention that my FF&S spreadsheet is calculating weapon
USPs based on the old system of .1 lightsecond(ls) - .2ls - .4ls - .8ls
whereas SSDS for some reason does 1ls-2ls-4ls-8ls. Thus my ranges are off -
maybe :)

The .1ls scheme coresponds to the old Brilliant Lances system where the
ranges also equaled hexes (1hex-2hex-4hex-8hex). I'm no physisist, but
these numbers seem more reasonable than SSDSs ranges.

For example, here are ranges in km:

          Short    Med     Long         Ext
SSDS    300,000  600,000  1,200,000   2,400,000
FF&S     30,000   60,000    120,000     240,000

I like the FF&S system - I have trouble imagining engaging a target at 1.2
million kilometers. But, it does mean that my spreadsheet's weapon USPs are
incompatable with SSDS.

Any comments?


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

All right, let's start eating bandwidth <chomp munch smack YUM! slobber
slobber Hmmm...needs some more hot sauce...> ;-)

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Loren Wiseman wrote:
> >Comment #2:
> >The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for debate.

CHOMP


> * And some Traveller aliens do have such a mechanism.  Both the Hivers and
>   the Aslan intentionally promote a uniform culture accross their areas of
>   space, and both races expend a significant amount of time and energy
>   (in the case of the Hivers, by manupulation; the Aslan tend to use 
>   military force) keeping their cultures as homogenous as possible, given the 
>   realities of interstellar communication.
> 

I thought there was actually a considerable amount of variation in the
Aslan 'culture'. Various clans tended to have similar culture (mores,
social rituals, customs, outlooks, etc) within the clan, but other than
the clan being the basis of government, and biologically mediated factors
(there's a 3:1 female:male ratio, males are driven to claim large
territories) there was considerable variation between clans, as much as
say, the difference between that boy on Ruie, and a girl on Sylea.

While we're looking at biologically related determinants of culture, VArgr
are going to be pretty territory-driven as well. They're derived from pack
animals which stake out huge hunting territories and vigorously defend
them from strangers.

Perhaps the long standing tradition of Vargr raiding is based on a 'pack'
claiming new hunting grounds.

Man o man, I wonder what the life of an omega Vargr is like...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:25:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: X-TEK 10ton Meson Pod

I developed this little gem about a year ago using the old FFS.  I have used 
Andy's FFS2 Starship Spreadsheet to redesign the thing.  His spreadsheet is 
fantastic!

I was thinking of making a Meson Fighter, but I knew it would be to big for 
the THUDDD.  (As a matter of fact, using the sheet I found I need at least a 
75ton Wedge Hull).  I made it long so that the effective range was at least 
one hex (30,000km)

Please note that Andy's spreadsheet calculates USP damages at 1-2-4-8 hexes. 
 IIRC SSDS uses 10-20-40-80 hexes.  Personally I prefer the shorter ranges 
as in most combat I run is rarely beyond 20 hexes.  I am wondering what will 
be developed for T4.1 and SSDS2

Well here it is, the 10ton meson Pod:


 ---------------------------------------------------
Weapon Name    10 ton Meson Pod                        
                              
Design                             
TL   12                       
Mount     Fixed                    
Tunnel Length  30m                 
Discharge Energy    230Mj                         
Weapon Crew    1                        
Crewstation present Yes                 
MFD Present         Yes                 
Number of weapons   1                        
ROF  100(+1USP)                         
          
Performance                             
Effective Range: 30,000km
Intensity, Short Range(30Kkm) 230.00                        
Intensity, Medium Range(60Kkm)     57.50                         
Intensity, Long Range(120Kkm) 14.38                         
Intensity, Extreme Range(240Kkm)   3.59                     
USP(FFS2: 1-2-4-8)       (+4) 2/3-2-0-0                     
USP(SSDS:10-20-40-80)    (+4) 2/3-0-0-0                     

Weapon Components   Volume    Mass Area Power     Price     
Tunnel              69.000    51.750    2.300     63.889    $6.900    
Beam Pointer        1.667     1.667               $0.167    
Accumulator         57.500    115.000             $0.575    
Crewstation         7.000     0.200               $0.002    
MFD                 3.333     3.333          0.033     $3.333    
Buffer Space        0.000                         
Totals              138.500   171.950   2.300     63.922    $10.976   
                              
Battery Design                          
Number of weapons   1                        
Crewstation Present 0                        
MFD Present    0                        
                              
Battery Performance                          
USP(FFS2) (+4) 2/2-1-0-0 [1,100/76-38-19-9]                      
                              
Battery Components  Volume    Mass Area Power     Price     
MFD                 0.000     0.000          0.000     $0.000    
Crewstation         0.000     0.000               $0.000    
Totals              0.000     0.000          0.000     $0.000    
                              
Battery Totals                          
Unit Volume:   138.500                       
Unit Mass:     171.950                       
Unit Area:     5.290                         
Unit Power:    63.922                        
Unit Price:    $10.976                       
Unit Crew:     1                        
                              
This previously classified and experimental weapon was devloped by X-TEK R&D 
for its "Totenshadde" or Deathshadow class Meson Assault Scout.  It is 
effectively a scaled down Meson Spinal Mount.  It's range is somewhat 
limited due to the length of the accelerator and damage is little more than 
that of a overpowered standard laser at the same tech level, but the 
advantage of a meson weapon is its ability to foil armour and sand. It is 
known that most pocket empires and pirate bands to not have meson screen 
capability, so this weapon will give the imperium a definite advantage. 
 Ever see a small, fast ship carrying one of the most fearsome weapons 
technology can create?  You will and X-TEK will bring it to you!

Zhunastu developed the Fusion+ which helped develop the Modern Fighter.
X-TEK now gives a new technology to further the protection of the empire 
with its
10 Ton Meson Pod.

In service to the Imperium
 ----------------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:34:49 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

>I agree that known pirate ships, and ships on the 'skip' list will be listed in
>the general ship's registry, but I don't think that every ship, down to the
>sub-light intra-system lighters and shuttles, will be.
>

And why is that (aside from the roleplaying aspect of the picket ships may
not have your shipdata). Even if Traveller computers generally are lame
compared to todays I'd suspect some improvement over the next thousand
years.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:37:58 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

> >It is a major drive in Humans, but there is no reason why Aslan should be
> >subject to the same drives 
> 
> Right.  And when working things out, you generally have to start from an
> assumption (in my case "Aslan females have a sex drive"), use the known facts
> about the race (such as the 3:1 female-to-male ratio and what we know
> about Aslan society and naming), and proceed to a solution that makes some 
> sort of sense.  This applies to just about everything you'd want to know
> about an alien race - this is the way that "classic" hard SF works.

Hm, well, you know, the way I read the Aslan is that there is one drive 
that probably supercedes the sex drive at least in males - the need to own 
land. Now, I realize that the ability of the Ihatei (sp?) to invade and 
conquer even a single Imperial world has long been up for debate, but that 
aside, there seem to be a _lot_ of Aslan social structures that revolve 
around landless males trying to get some land.

So, for me, the list of known facts would be:

 - everyone has a sex drive (duh!)
 - Aslan males really, really, REALLY like owning land - to the exclusion 
    of almost everything else (like money, for example)
 - Aslan have that nasty 3:1 sex ratio

Aslo, because of the last point, the Aslan would have a really bad 
population problem if they had human-like sex drives - they'd be
able to produce children at 3 times the human rate, assuming similar
rates of fertiliy and similar gestation periods. So, maybe Aslan 
females aren't constantly fertile like human females, maybe they
go through a short period of estrus (is that the right word?) on
an annual basis. That would relieve most of the need for contraception
if they wanted to have casual sex. Maybe there are"alpha" and "beta"
females where only one of the castes gets to breed (is the lower caste
forced to breed or is the higher caste granted the privledge of breeding?)
There are lots of possibilities.

Personally, I would go with saying that Aslan sex habits vary somewhat,
depending on social standing and with regional differences, but that 
for the most part, females aren't in estrus and males are more concerned 
with getting a piece of land than with getting a piece of ass.

Of course, you may want to stand back during that one week of the Aslan
year...

Human 1 : What's with our female Aslan engineer?
Human 2 : Don't ask.
Human 1 : She's been clawing at that stateroom door for 2 days now.
          What's in there?
Human 2 : That Aslan mercenary squad we picked up back on Regina.
          They've locked themselves in and keep screaming over
          the intercom for help.
Human 1 : This is going to be a looooong jump...

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:45:17 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

>More likely INT was chosen as being the closest match to "will". It
>takes a lot of willpower to keep up on excercise programs!
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

In one of the earlier TD issues I think they equated "will" with average of
INT and END.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 07:38:47 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: MT characteristic improvement rules: clarification

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >>Do I have this wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that Intelligence
> >>is a modifier on a Strength improvement roll.
> >
> > It actually does make sense (for me).
> > There are good and bad ways to weightlift/dieting/agility training etc and
> > INT could perhaps guide you right there. The reason bodybuilders are so
> > much bigger these days than for say 20 years ago is not only due to
> > steroids - they actually got better at training by doing research studies
> > etc. I'm not shure the MT rule could be an error nevertheless but for me it
> > would be really rewarding to give your superstrong dimwit PCs a hard time
> > increasing their STR because they're too stupid to train efficiently.
> 
> More likely INT was chosen as being the closest match to "will". It
> takes a lot of willpower to keep up on excercise programs!
> 

Ah but then Determination (Int + End) should be the modifier, not
Int by itself.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:47:57 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Pocket Empire Force Values

TravelrTNE@aol.com asked, "Re: Pocket Empries":

>Do any of you Pocket Empires owners have any ideas on quantifying the vague
>military values for the "forces" in the game?  

As Colin Hutchinson has pointed out, one way is simply in monetary terms:
forces cost RU; RU can be converted into Cr. However, those Cr are divided
between the actual forces and their supporting infrastructure (from
buildings to staff) as well as on the separate maintenance budget, etc.

The important thing to note is that equating RU directly with a cash Cr
value is dangerous, because RU are supposed to represent a more general
economic quantity which combines resources, man-power, *training*,
infrastructure, etc. So you can't directly equate X RU = Y Cr = Z batrons or
SDBs or whatever.

Given the above, I'd estimate perhaps 1/5 of so of the Cr value is actually
military hardware - whether starships or tanks, while perhaps another 1/5 is
the pay of the troops - given the old Book 4 Mercenary pay values, you could
estimate the number of troops this equates to. Perhaps someone with some
knowledge of current army expenditure could give you a realistic figure for
these?

The problem with PE was trying to find a simple method of describing
military combat factors at a higher level than Battle Rider/Brilliant
Lances/Fifth Frontier War, which was also fairly independent of the TL and
didn't involve lots of complicated multiplication factors. Basing everything
around equivalent RU cost seemed the optimal method at the time. I'm not
claiming that it's perfect by any means, and if someone felt that the Cr/RU
ratio was out for the military sections, then you could adjust the RU costs
for Attk, Def, etc. factors accordingly. The relative costing of Attk/Def
vs. Transport and Jump factors was based in part on my analysis of the
relative costs of weaponry, ship hull and drives in the QSDS and SSDS
systems. How that now relates to FF&S2 I've not checked.

I'm interested in hearing any feedback from anyone who's used Pocket Empires
in anger, whether for combat, empire building or single world development.

Thanks

Andy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2055
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2056



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
TImecheck for DGP
Re: That three-letter word
Re: CT product query
GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech
Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
Peltast IFV (TL7)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:56:00 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >> So many times I have
> >>seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
> >>for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.
> >
> > This is where my stratagy of hedging my bets comes in. Get one of each and
> > network them using TCP/IP .... :-)
> 
> Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
> Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
> port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.

You can only connect Mac's and PC's up with TCP/IP through ethernet.

If you have a Mac Plus with no internal expansion, what you need is a
SCSI Ethernet Adaptor or EtherWave Adaptor.

Those who want to configure TCP/IP for a local network can check this
address:
<http://www.ambrosiasw.com/netgames/configTCP.html>

Mac info is up. Win95 is under construction.

> For that matter, is there a way to get my PCs to talk TCP/IP and still
> run Netware Lite on top of it? Or tell me how to get the same level of
> file and device sharing.

I'm no networking guru, but I *thought* that was possible with Win95...

> While you are at it, tell me how to network my Aplle II clone and my
> TRS-80s with the Mac and PCs. :-)

EEEeeekk!!! <running away in horror>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:59:00 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> Those who have not read Contact, by Carl Sagan should skip this message...it
>> won't ruin the plot, but it will spoil some of your enjoyment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The discussion of hiding a mesage in DNA reminds me of a schtick in Contact.
>>
>> The heroine discovers that when you compute pi to a gazillion decimal places,
>> in base something or other, it turns into a string of ones and zeros, and
>> contains a message.
>>
>> Neat notion, eh?
>
>Also thoroughly trashed on the net back when the book first came out.
>You see, pi's value is a matter of *definition*. That is, regardless of
>the characteristics of the universe, it will always have the same value
>because its value derives from basic definitions of mathematics (not
>even geometry!).

Wasn't that the _point_?

>Among other things, it's related to e (base of the natural logarithms)
>in several ways. The one I recall is:
>
>                i      -pi/2
>               i   =  e
>
>That is: i to the ith power equals e to the negative one-half pi power.
>
>It's a neat idea, it's just not *possible*.

When I read the book, I got the impression that Sagan was suggesting that
the universe had been created specifically with this message contained in
its ontological (if that's the right word) substance.

>Also, I *think* (I may be wrong about this) that *any* sequence of
>digits will turn up in *any* irrational number if you carry it out to
>enough digits. It's a sort of "monkeys with typewriters" effect. So
>that kills it too.

Agree with you there.  I thought it was a really neat idea, until I thought
of this.  There's a digital recording of Milli Vanilli's first album in
there, too.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:32:41 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: TImecheck for DGP

On January 22 of this year Roger Sanger wrote:

>DGP is doing  better than ever.
...
>DGP's prospects for the future are even stronger.
...
>Digest Group  Publications is developing its  own sci-fi campaign
>setting -- done  our way! It'll be everything  and more than what
>you would expect from DGP.
 ...
>THE FIRST RELEASE WILL BE IN 1997!
...
>I'll keep you posted.
I've searched this year's worth of TMLs and have not found anything to
indicate that DGP is doing _anything_, or they have any prospect of doing
_anything_. Not a peep about any new sci-fi campaign, and, as of yet, no
sign of any release.

Now, if I were cynical, I would say that they are better than ever at doing
nothing. The future holds larger prospects of nothingness. Which is what I
would expect from the current management of DGP. And that he will release a
new version of nothing in 1997. So, if you apply a certain interpretation,
Roger isn't necessarily lying except about keeping us informed.

So, Roger: inform us. Is this all _completely_ bogus, or will you someday
_do_ something and make me eat my words?

Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:17:40 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Loren Wiseman wrote:
>>Comment #2:
>>The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for debate.
>
>This is a very good point.  As a matter of fact, I'll get up on a soapbox
>and generalize it:  Just because Humans do something one particular way
>doesn't mean that Traveller aliens (even 'human-like' aliens like Aslan and
>Vargr) will do the same thing that same way.  They may do it in a totally
>different way, or they may do something else entirely.

Amen!

[snip]

>For those of you that are curious, here's what I've done when the
>question has come up:
>Major Races:
>  Humans: We know about those humans, right?

Not necessarily...

>  Aslan: Roughly similar to humans, but drive stronger in females than males.
>  Vargr: High-SOC individuales get more chances to mate.  Both sexes find
>    sex pleasurable, but sex drive is based on seasonal factors (higher and
>    lower at various times of the year).

I've often thought of Vargr pack dominance being a bigger drive than sex,
per se -- plenty of para-sexual display and behavior that is really "about"
control and prestige rather than sexual/reproductive gratification.  Which
is little consolation to players when their Vargr commanding officer tries
to mount whenever they report for duty...  player _characters_, I mean.

>  Droyne: They're not telling, other than that it requires 6 droyne of the
>    appropriate castes, and a ceremony that was prescribed by Grandfather.

See?  See?  Grampy's a gol-danged CHILD MOLESTER.  A KINKY one, too.
Choreographed ritual orgies of his grandchildren?  Who are all genetically
programmed, psionically-controlled evil robots?  Is there ANYONE who won't
support the Sayat in Program SOD?  (Stamp Out Droyne)?

>  Centaurs: The K'Kree are rather reticent on this topic.

Gratia Dei.

>  Hivers: Have sex ("shake hands") constantly, but don't seem to notice or
>    care.

That's just what they're TELLING us...

>Minor Races:
>  Dolphins: The horniest creatures in known space (males and females both).

I think the uplifted Solomani chimps would give them a run for the money...
I remember all too vividly some of the film footage and statistics from my
bio anth seminars...

>This points to another pitfall when dealing with aliens in a SF game.  Most
>referees tend to play an alien race as one huge monoculture.  Humans are not
>like that - the society and behavior of Humans can vary radically from
>location to location.  Most Traveller referees recognize that a farm
>boy from Rouie will have a different outlook from a kid from the belts
>of Glisten.  Unless there's some reason or mechanism that creates a unified
>culture*, aliens can vary as much as humans do.
>
>* And some Traveller aliens do have such a mechanism.  Both the Hivers and
>  the Aslan intentionally promote a uniform culture accross their areas of
>  space, and both races expend a significant amount of time and energy
>  (in the case of the Hivers, by manupulation; the Aslan tend to use
>  military force) keeping their cultures as homogenous as possible, given the
>  realities of interstellar communication.

This is an interesting topic in itself -- it seems that the Two Thousand
Worlds also promote a homogenous culture, and the Zhodani Consulate as well
(perhaps).  Only the Vargr Extents, the Imperium member worlds, and the
Solomani lack a pervasive sort of cultural integration.  In a (really)
loose sense, it seems like the Imperium and the Solomani Sphere are more
like bureaucratic or patrimonial empires, while the Consulate and
Federation are more like "nation-states".

>>For those who care, I believe the sexual habits of every Traveller alien have
>>been a topic for argument that has used up almost as much bandwidth as
>>pirates and (dare I say it) big rocks.
>
>I dunno, Loren.  ;-)  I made what (I thought) would be a pretty controversial
>post, and got nearly no private replies, and only a couple here on the
>list.  There's more bandwidth being devoted to complaining about Starship
>Troopers and looking for fonts, and I think the piracy debate is the clear
>bandwidth leader at the moment.

Starship troopers are sexy, pirates are sexier, fonts are the sexiest...
although that might just be my kink, I dunno.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:22:16 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: CT product query

Many thanks to everyone who's responded about Double Adventure #3 -- my
curiosity is satiated.  Sorry for the selfish use of bandwidth -- back to
the regularly scheduled programming!

(BTW, I agree with Anders -- we've got plenty of firepower and excuses to
use it now; let's have more intrigue!)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:07:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

The (old) GDW-Beta@qrc.com mailing list is going down, and will be replaced
by trav-tech@qrc.com serving the same audience on the same topics.  The new
list is managed by Majordomo, which should result in lower administrative
overhead for me, and better service for all of the list members.

If you're interested in Traveller technical and rules discussion, you can
subscribe to trav-tech by sending an e-mail message that contains
"subscribe" in the body to trav-tech-request@qrc.com.  A digest version is
also availble, send requests to trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com.

Posting to the trav-tech list is restricted to list members.  The list is
archived (and the archives include the old GDW-Beta archives).  Archive
index and retrieval commands are restricted to list members as well.  The
archives will not be available or searchable by the web or to non-members.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:49:12 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

At 02:24 AM 11/5/97 PST, Leonard wrote:

>It doesn't work that well for the military either. At 1000 diameters,
>you have to worry about the *star*, not just the planet (actually, in
>some systems you have to worry about the star even at 100 diameters).

Oouch.  Forgot about that in my last post.

>That makes the jump limit for the Sol system (for "synchronized" jumps)
>9 AU. As someone pointed out when 1000 diameters was suggested for
>something else, that's *weeks* at high acceleration. The enemy has time
>to do almost anything. 

Actually, out to 9 AU is 8 or 9 days according to the MTRC, and that's at 1G.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:02:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

>Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
>Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
>port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.
> 
>For that matter, is there a way to get my PCs to talk TCP/IP and still
>run Netware Lite on top of it? Or tell me how to get the same level of
>file and device sharing.
> 
>While you are at it, tell me how to network my Aplle II clone and my
>TRS-80s with the Mac and PCs. :-)

I answered privatly .... but if anyone wants to know, just mail me.

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
	http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~edq/
                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:04:24 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

At 01:59 AM 11/5/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:

>> The only people more clueless about military matters than journalist
>> are Sillywood ... er ... Hollywood!  Ever watch 'JAG'? (the
>> prosecution rests.)
>
>And in any case, if the military loosens up enough to allow
>"fraternization", then you are likely going to have a noticeable
>percentage of the troops interested in the *same* sex. After all, if
>regs allow it, one thing combat soldiers of *any* sex are not is *shy*!

The US Army allows its soldiers to screw themselves silly as long as your
partner is of the opposite sex, not of vastly different rank, and consents.

Speaking as a "Chapter 15" case myself, the number of soldiers who came to
me and admitted they were gay or bi during my discharge proceedings was
comical.  If I had spoken up to CID, the 25th Infantry Division would have
been rendered mission-incapable.

>> "To our friends who are still in the desert!" 
>>                         Ancient Foreign Legion toast
>
>"You have joined the Legion to die. The Legion will send you where you
> can die."
>		(supposedly a sign in Legion orderly rooms)
>
>Substitute "Marines" for "Legion" in the above to get a sign that *is*
>found in CoDominium Line Marine orderly rooms.
>
>"March or die!"
>		Old Foreign Legion "slogan"
>		CD Line Marine slogan

"The US Paratrooper exists to give the other Sonofabitch the maximum chance
to die for his country."  -General Bill Lee, Father of the Airborne.

"Don't run, you'll only die tired."  -Sign on the wall, US Army Sniper School.

"Here lie the bones
of Ranger Jones
a graduate of this institution,
he died last night,
in his first fire-fight
using the School solution.
BE FLEXIBLE!"

- -Sign in front of the US Army Ranger School
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:15:08 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: RoboReindeer (TL 11)

At 06:40 PM 11/4/97 -0600, Rod Elliot wrote:
>Rob Prior wrote:
>>Maybe I shouldn't finish FFS2 after all.   My mental equilibrium is too
>>fragile for what you twisted souls would likely come up with :-)

Yeah, but seeing the Great Old One expressed in ship form would be fun, no?

>	Actually, if I can make a modest proposal...  We've got CSC to do
>vehicles, and we've got SAL to do ships...  but we don't have any programs
>to design small arms with <innocent, harmless grin>.

I would still encourage FF&S2 for ships first, as that is what I use more.
Clearly Hengebar and Co. disagree.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:35:26 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

At 02:14 AM 11/5/97 PST, Leonard Erikson wrote:

>>> So many times I have
>>>seen or heard of really cool RPG aids being made, but SIGH, it's always
>>>for some other comuter then what I have.  That really bites.

>> This is where my stratagy of hedging my bets comes in. Get one of each and
>> network them using TCP/IP .... :-)
>
>Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
>Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
>port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.

For a truly ugly solution, buy an Appletalk-Ethernet router.  They cost a
few hundred bucks, but I believe that will allow your $100 computer to talk
just fine...

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:45:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

At 01:48 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:

>I've always wondered about how naval fleets manage to arrive in a system
>with enough cohesion to begin an attack.  According to the rules, they will
>arrive over the course of 3 days!  Something tells me the Imperium would not
>look the way that it does if attacking fleets took that long to arrive...
>
>I have never seen a reasonable answer to this question that matches what
>we know about the universe.  I've seen people mention 'synchronizing' the
>jump calculations, but that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  This
>synchronization is free, takes no extra time, no extra risk and no trade
off.  Why is it that it's not more commonly used for multiple ship
missions, >both civilian and military?

Synchronization does take extra time, but it's time spent in preperation.
Take the Navy's Blue Angels.  These guys regularly flew withing inches of
each other at very high speeds.  Doing this takes excellent pilots and
intensive training.  Your average F/A-18 mission isn't going to require
that level of coordination.

You are the commander of the 173rd Fleet, and you are making a jump to a
hostile world.  Your staff will be carefully selecting who jumps when, and
setting up the formations.  Each of those ships' navigators will be burning
the midnight photons checking and double checking the numbers to insure
that when they come out of jump, they won't be all alone.

(This might be a reason why the Imperium likes really BIG ships, and hasn't
flooded space with little pirate-catching escorts.. the need for a ship to
survive until the rest of the fleet breaks out of j-space.)

I imagine that the entries into j-space must be timed down to the last
second, and any deviation will result in a ship "dropping formation" and
being subject to normal jump time deviation.

>Now, this whole house of cards I'm going to construct depends on a few
>key assumptions, and some careful, adept handwaving, so bear with me as I
>set this up.  First a few facts:
>
>a) You can't survive jumping at under 10 diamters (ship destroyed).
>b) Under 100 diamters the ship will almost always misjump.
>c) After 100 diameters you have a standard jump (+/- 1 day) with a small
>chance of misjump.

Well, you *can* jump from inside 10 diameters, it's just not very smart.

>And now the inspiration.  A simple question, posed by a navigator in a
>dream. What happens at 1000 diameters?
>
>Thrusters are affected by gravity, so are  jump-drives?  What if 100
>diameters was just the 'reasonably safe' limit?  What if you moved out far
>enough the +/- 1 day went away?  What if that distance was 1000 diameters?
 >What if at that distance the error went from +/- 10% to +/-1%?
>
>The time required to travel to 1000 diameters far outweighs the benifits
>for traders.    The only people this would benifit would be military
>operations involving large numbers of ships.  Any comments?

Well, the safe jump distance from a Size A world is about .01 AU.  A rough
estimate of 1000 diameters is therefore .1 AU.  According to the MT
Referee's Companion (pg 21) it would only take about 21 hours to get out
that far using 1G acceleration.  I could see where most if not all
merchants would accept the additional two days in N-space over the
randomness of J-space.

It also gives those pesky pirates more room to work in....  :)

Interesting concept.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:06:48 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

At 03:08 PM 11/4/97 -0800, David Summers wrote:
>Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:02:17 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Even if it WAS one entire percent, I still don't see how you could possibly
>>consider that too much to use _of an already existing, active force_.
>
>Well, you _know_ I don't agree that you can use an already exisiting
>force without diminishing the effectiveness of that force for
>its primary (military) use.

An important issue - mission creep because of civilian complaints.  If
piracy of very expensive vessels happens regularly, then either the
citizens will complain, the citizens will build deadly vessels themselves,
or the Navy will stop it.  From what you said, you feel the citizens of the
unpopular planets will just whine about it, as you previously noted that
you could not see the Imperium allowing private navies that could rival
their own.  (I must agree with that - I cannot see any Empire allowing a
world to get built up enough that it could secede.)

Even when it is not in their interest, modern Navies send destroyers about
in order to express frightfulness.  It is possible that the Imperium would
not do that, but the level of resources possessed is so large compared to
the area required to patrol that they could without materially affecting
their striking power (1% is not a major difference to their fleet makeup.
I know you argue that just because they have the capability, they will not
choose to use it, but given the political pressure, it seems like the
Imperium would be war torn if it did not.)

Were the items at risk not as expensive as the yearly maintenance on ~5
defender ships of similar size, or one good sized patrol craft that could
crush any casual pirate, then the situation changes.  Insurers will not
care as much, and if one merchant in a million is lost, then it become more
like car jacking than the Lindbergh kidnapping.

>   I'm not sure what the point in
>reasserting your view as if it were fact is, unless you either want
>me to just give in because you keep raising it or you somehow
>expect that I will be willing for the both of us to simply
>repeat the points we didn't agree on before.

He is using the exact same technique you are.  Both of you assert your
views as if they are fact, when in reality, they are both based on rather
large chains of assumption about the rules, the politics, and other
details.  It is my opinion that Hans arguments carry more weight, but that
is because he is arguing from a very numerical resources/costs basis, and I
am an engineer working for economists.  That kind of argument is going to
appeal to me.  Both you and he have noted several critical differing
assumptions.

(Example: Hans cannot see how using 1% of a pre-existing force to stop
piracy of very expensive vessels could be avoided, and you cannot see why
the Navy would ever face sufficient pressure to use any fraction, no matter
how small, of its forces in response to a world that was not high
population, given that the Empire only needs the high pop worlds anyway.)

Both of your respond whenever this thread comes up, each hoping to win by
exhaustion, and each a bit mystified, I suspect, about why the other cannot
see what is, to you, obvious.  (NB, my camp is pretty obvious from my above
comments.)

I cannot imagine either one of you being willing to let the other one get
the last post at this point, but there is a simple way to prove me
completely off base - do not reply to this or any other piracy thread.  Do
not post a "this is my last word on the subject" post, just stop posting.

See if the other parties, like me, in this debate do the same, once the two
of you stop.

If you are having fun with it, then by all means go ahead and continue - I
certainly am not the list cop, but if you want to use the (implied)
argument you did above, that Hans was not adding anything new to the
debate, and should just stop, consider that this is likely how all of us
who still post on the thread look.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:20:33 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Ethan Henry wrote:

[snip]

>Aslo, because of the last point, the Aslan would have a really bad
>population problem if they had human-like sex drives - they'd be
>able to produce children at 3 times the human rate, assuming similar
>rates of fertiliy and similar gestation periods. So, maybe Aslan
>females aren't constantly fertile like human females, maybe they
>go through a short period of estrus (is that the right word?) on
>an annual basis. That would relieve most of the need for contraception
>if they wanted to have casual sex. Maybe there are"alpha" and "beta"
>females where only one of the castes gets to breed (is the lower caste
>forced to breed or is the higher caste granted the privledge of breeding?)
>There are lots of possibilities.
>
>Personally, I would go with saying that Aslan sex habits vary somewhat,
>depending on social standing and with regional differences, but that
>for the most part, females aren't in estrus and males are more concerned
>with getting a piece of land than with getting a piece of ass.
>
>Of course, you may want to stand back during that one week of the Aslan
>year...
>
>Human 1 : What's with our female Aslan engineer?
>Human 2 : Don't ask.
>Human 1 : She's been clawing at that stateroom door for 2 days now.
>          What's in there?
>Human 2 : That Aslan mercenary squad we picked up back on Regina.
>          They've locked themselves in and keep screaming over
>          the intercom for help.
>Human 1 : This is going to be a looooong jump...

I like this solution... interesting.  It seems that Aslan males are victims
of a system that's the close cousin of a human male fantasy (c.f. Russ
Meyer, esp. _Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!_) -- meek, earnest men being
outnumbered and terrorized by swarms of agressive and sexually voracious
women.  How ironic!

PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the intercom? <G>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:44:34 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

Leonard Erickson writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>> IC:  Pope?  <check Imperial Encyclopedia>  Why would a dead poet object?
>> Oh.  <recheck>  Ah!  Shepherd of the flock... heh heh, how ironic.  Hm...
>> rather intriguing.  <Mutter to colleagues> ...threat to cosmic security...
>> <mutter> ...expedited extraction... ...debriefing... <mutter> ...yes, yes,
>> excessive force... <mutter>.  So, er, where might we find this... "Pope"?
>
>Don't worry, Sister Evangeline has been dispatched to help you.
>(very obscure Comico reference :-)

Huh? <duck reference zipping over head> Well, like they say, sisterhood is
powerful.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:51:07 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Peltast IFV (TL7)

Peltast IFV (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  13.3 tonnes;  kCr 103
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 713 kg
of hard steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick
     Armour: 8 front (2.0 cm, moderate slope), 6 sides (1.0 cm), 6 rear (1.0
cm), 6 top (1.0 cm), 6 bottom (1.0 cm)
Performance:
     701 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 876 L of
high-grade hcarb (876 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 700 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 68 km/h; 
Range: 681 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver, gunner, commander;  3 crew stations;  8 roomy
passenger seats
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Autocannon, Light-6             10        Long           100     15     
  +2DM, turret1 gunner
Communications:
     Regional Radio (1.00 kW, TL7, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     89.5 L of cargo space

The Peltast Infantry Fighting Vehicle is an armed battle-taxi, designed to
both carry a squad into action and provide it with fire support. 

Varients include cheaper versions with no fire control (costing 83 kCr) and
rear-echelon models armed only with machineguns (costing 65 kCr).


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2056
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2057



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Abivard Medium GravTank (TL11)
Mishnak Dirtbike (TL6)
Kaalin Dirtbike (TL7)
Astraan Dirtbike (TL6)
Loon Bush Plane (TL6)
Snipe Bush Plane (TL8)
Mallard Bush Plane (TL7)
Vehicles Archive Updated
Of Pirates and Lurking
Re: Starship Troopers
Re: TImecheck for DGP
re:CT product query
Re: Starship Troopers
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2054
Re: Starship Troopers Site
Re: Number of ships in the Imperium
Triumph Monitor (TL4)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:49:48 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Abivard Medium GravTank (TL11)

Abivard Medium GravTank (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     17.00 displacement ton wedge streamlined;  172 tonnes;  MCr 17.0
Chassis:
     238 kL wedge streamlined (19 m long x 7.7 m wide x 4.9 m high); 
Structure: 3.10 tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 1.0Gs, body 4.0 cm thick,
sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 20 front (6.0 cm, radical slope), 20 sides (6.0 cm, radical
slope), 20 rear (6.0 cm, radical slope), 14 top (4.0 cm), 14 bottom (4.0 cm);
 Stealth Structure: -3DM against TL11- military and TL12- civilian sensors
Performance:
     12.1 MW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 478 L of enriched water
(478 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 12.0 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 308 km/h; 
Range: 30734 km;  Agility: -2DM (4.9G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot, commander, gunner;  3 crew stations
     Basic life support; Hatches: 1 manual; Grav Compensation (2G), Only
seating compensated
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Plasma Cannon, Hvy Veh-11       61 (15 expExtremely Long         1      
  +5DM, remoteturret
     Autocannon, RF Lt-11            11        Very Long      1000    3      
  +5DM, remoteturret
Communications:
     Continental Radio (100 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec)
     Regional Laser (1.00 kW, TL11, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW, MilSpec)  Resolution: 1.0 mm per km of
range
Other:
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     32.5 L of cargo space

Second in a new generation of plasma-armed gravtanks, the Abivard boasts a
heavy plasma cannon and rapid-firing autocannon in turret mounts. The power
plant is rated to supply continuous power to the plasma cannon; a platoon of
Peroz gravtanks can devastate vast areas in a short period of time. The
autocannon is primarily used in a defensive role against incoming missiles
and infantry attacks. 

The Abivard is moderately armoured, but still relies mainly on its speed and
agility to survive.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:48:38 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mishnak Dirtbike (TL6)

Mishnak Dirtbike (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.06 displacement ton open-topped close structure;  825 kg;  Cr 8977
Chassis:
     840 L open-topped close structure (2.0 m long x 1.5 m wide x 35 cm
high);  Structure: 120 kg of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick,
1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 50.0 L of
hydrocarbons (50.0 kg), 5 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 109 km/h; 
Range: 545 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.2G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.

Off-road motorbike racing is very popular with lower-social-standing
inhabitants of many worlds. Races are typically run over convoluted courses
requiring speed, endurance, and skill to complete. 

The Mishnak is an ideal bike for a cross-country race. It is fast,
maneuverable, and has excellent off-road handling. This model is stripped
down to the bare essentials, which lowers price and increases speed.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:49:01 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Kaalin Dirtbike (TL7)

Kaalin Dirtbike (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.06 displacement ton open-topped close structure;  645 kg;  Cr 7349
Chassis:
     840 L open-topped close structure (2.0 m long x 1.5 m wide x 35 cm
high);  Structure: 60.3 kg of light alloy, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 62.5 L of
high-grade hcarb (62.5 kg), 5 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 167 km/h; 
Range: 836 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.2G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.

Off-road motorbike racing is very popular with lower-social-standing
inhabitants of many worlds. Races are typically run over convoluted courses
requiring speed, endurance, and skill to complete. 

The Kaalin is an ideal bike for a cross-country race. It is fast,
maneuverable, and has excellent off-road handling. Essentially an upgraded
Astraan, the Kaalin is almost 50 km/h faster.  Manufacturing improvements
have lowered the price by over Cr2000, as well.  This model is stripped down
to the bare essentials, which lowers price and increases speed.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:49:22 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Astraan Dirtbike (TL6)

Astraan Dirtbike (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.06 displacement ton open-topped close structure;  693 kg;  Cr 9869
Chassis:
     840 L open-topped close structure (2.0 m long x 1.5 m wide x 35 cm
high);  Structure: 60.3 kg of light alloy, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 62.5 L of
high-grade hcarb (62.5 kg), 5 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 130 km/h; 
Range: 648 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.2G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.

Off-road motorbike racing is very popular with lower-social-standing
inhabitants of many worlds. Races are typically run over convoluted courses
requiring speed, endurance, and skill to complete. 

The Astraan is an ideal bike for a cross-country race. It is fast,
maneuverable, and has excellent off-road handling. An alloy frame and
improved internal combustion engine lower mass, increasing speed by over 20
km/h over the slightly cheaper Mishnak.  Most serious racers find the extra
performance well worth the slight increase in price.  This model is stripped
down to the bare essentials, which lowers price and increases speed.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:50:47 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Loon Bush Plane (TL6)

Loon Bush Plane (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  4.07 tonnes;  kCr 338
Chassis:
     28.0 kL cylinder airframe (7.5 m long x 2.2 m wide x 2.2 m high,
wingspan 13 m);  Structure: 245 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 562 L of
high-grade hcarb (562 kg), 15 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 300 kW aircraft with STOL capability and floats; 
Maximum Speed: 97 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 44 km/h; Runway Length: 38 m; Take-Off Time: 6 seconds; 
Range: 1460 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  3 cramped passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL6, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     2.00 kL of cargo space

Before the invention of contragrav most transport is by ground vehicle over a
prepared road network. In frontier areas where this network is not available
small aircraft are used instead. 

The Loon is typical of these planes. It is cheap, durable, and requires only
38 metres to take-off and land. Floats give it the capacity to land on water,
making any lake or calm river an instant airstrip. The Loon can transport
three passengers and two cubic metres of cargo almost 1500 km.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:50:07 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Snipe Bush Plane (TL8)

Snipe Bush Plane (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  3.58 tonnes;  kCr 158
Chassis:
     28.0 kL cylinder airframe (7.5 m long x 2.2 m wide x 2.2 m high,
wingspan 13 m);  Structure: 245 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 562 L of
high-grade hcarb (562 kg), 15 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 300 kW aircraft with STOL capability and floats; 
Maximum Speed: 131 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 39 km/h; Runway Length: 29 m; Take-Off Time: 5 seconds; 
Range: 1960 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  3 cramped passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL8, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     2.00 kL of cargo space

Before the invention of contragrav most transport is by ground vehicle over a
prepared road network. In frontier areas where this network is not available
small aircraft are used instead. 

The Snipe, a lineal descendant of the Loon, is typical of these planes. It is
cheap, durable, and requires only 29 metres to take-off and land. Floats give
it the capacity to land on water, making any lake or calm river an instant
airstrip. The Loon can transport three passengers and two cubic metres of
cargo almost 2000 km.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:50:28 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mallard Bush Plane (TL7)

Mallard Bush Plane (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  3.80 tonnes;  kCr 236
Chassis:
     28.0 kL cylinder airframe (7.5 m long x 2.2 m wide x 2.2 m high,
wingspan 13 m);  Structure: 245 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body
0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 562 L of
high-grade hcarb (562 kg), 15 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 300 kW aircraft with STOL capability and floats; 
Maximum Speed: 114 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 41 km/h; Runway Length: 33 m; Take-Off Time: 5 seconds; 
Range: 1703 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  3 cramped passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL7, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     2.00 kL of cargo space

Before the invention of contragrav most transport is by ground vehicle over a
prepared road network. In frontier areas where this network is not available
small aircraft are used instead. 

The Mallard, a lineal descendant of the Loon, is typical of these planes. It
is cheap, durable, and requires only 33 metres to take-off and land. Floats
give it the capacity to land on water, making any lake or calm river an
instant airstrip. The Loon can transport three passengers and two cubic
metres of cargo over 1700 km.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 16:54:33 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Vehicles Archive Updated

I've updated the vehicles archive at
<<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>

It now contains over a hundred vehicles for both MT and T4 (CSC rules).

Submissions welcomed, preferably in HTML format.

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 12:59 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Of Pirates and Lurking

Gentle Travellers,

After reading posts with numbers and arguments good and suspect,
I've considered bits of canon with bits of thought and decided:

1) SDBs are sufficient deterrent to pirates, but are only in force
   on class A and B starported systems.  Why this would be, I am
   not sure.

2) Lower-class starports do not field many (or any) SDBs, and thus 
   may have pirates lurking about.

3) For some reason most traders are not armed (!!).  Why this would
   be, I am not sure.

4) Pirates are lightly armed and steal cargo.  Why they would not
   normally steal an entire ship, I am not sure.

5) Pirates would not normally fool with other armed ships.

Now, our Traveller group would never even think of running a ship
weaponless.  Heavens, a laser battery is only a fraction of the
cost of a ship.  Also, our Traveller group probably figures any
pirates willing to run down another ship will take everything and
either strand or kill the victims.  It's a rough universe.


As an aside, I have occasionally wondered why the Classic
Traveller's ship construction rules seem easier than the
others.  Of course, everything is simplified, but really 
there isn't that great a difference, yes?

I think what I may try to do is forward-engineer the QSDS
or SSDS down into a simplified system, similar to the Classic
system.  Any thoughts?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:16:19 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

>I've decided that the movie's title and the names of certain characters
>are only coincidentally the same as Heinlein's novel, but that there is
>no other connection.  In that spirit, I'm looking forward to an evening
>of blood, guts, explosions, and more blood with my little brother.  Then
>we're going to the movie.

Exactly! Thank you!

And if some other things are done well: good cinematography, a tight
script, good special effects, all the better.

Just because the movie isn't "The English Patient" doesn't mean it's not
worth seeing.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:12:25 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TImecheck for DGP

> So, Roger: inform us. Is this all _completely_ bogus, or will you someday
> _do_ something and make me eat my words?
>
> Jo Grant

Jo--just a question.  Did Roger do something to piss you off?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: re:CT product query

In-Reply-To: <l03020909b085190e64c7@[194.119.133.175]>

SD,

> The adventures were "Death Station" and "The Argon Gambit".
>  
> DS is one of the scariest adventures that I have ever played in and
> involves a labship, drugs experiments going wrong and possibly trips down
> fuel tanks a la Aliens airshafts. Oh yes, the players get to investigate.

God, it must be >10 years since I ran that...the only memory I have is of 
an ex-Imperial Marine in BD stomping on lab rats...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:21 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>No, it's a long way from the intent of the author. Farther than even
>the most pessimistic could have possibly imagined.

Perhaps I should have stated that in the proper context:

The movie approaches the original intent of the author *as close as you're
likely to get from Hollywood*.

The film is about young troops getting their mettle tested by a difficult
military challenge. A testosterone-infused coming-of-age tale. Which is, at
least in part, what the book was about. The fascistic appearance and feel
of the Terran military also seems fairly accurate based on the trailers
I've seen and what I've read.

I've read the book. I'm not speaking from ignorance here. There's no way
the book is a feasible financial or marketable concept in its original
state. Verhoeven has taken the concept, and as is done in Hollywood, and
changed things to make it a movie.

I don't know why I beat this dead horse every time, but people have got to
realize that film making is a business. There are millions of dollars
involved. It's too bad that the reality of vector physics isn't observed
and that powered armor will not be shown, but the simple fact of the matter
is that audiences want sound effects in space. Fighter jets and WWII movies
are their point of reference for starships and ground troops, respectively.

For a successful film, you have to market it to the lowest common
denominator to a certain extent. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do some
smart film making to satisfy more intellectually developed members of the
audience, but big-budget sci-fi films *have* to get a big return at the box
office or they aren't made.

If the movie is good on a visceral level, people shouldn't turn their noses
up to it. Success of sci-fi movies like Starship Troopers can only breed
*more* sci-fi films and continued opportunities to make better ones.

>All this was misguided. It turns out what people should *really* have
>been asking was "Will it contain teen romance and a co-ed shower
>scene?" It's been a long time since I read the original, but I'm
>fairly sure there was no shower scene, and that romantic rivalry
>was not a major factor in the plot.

Again, adhering to the letter of Robert Heinlein would be an unprofitable
venture. I don't see how a group shower scene or some teen romance will
detract from this movie. It's entertainment. If you want to see films that
pay more strict homage to the original material, see a smaller independent
film like "Moll Flanders" or "The Mill on the Floss."

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:00 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2054

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>No, it's a long way from the intent of the author. Farther than even
>the most pessimistic could have possibly imagined.

Perhaps I should have stated that in the proper context:

The movie approaches the original intent of the author *as close as you're
likely to get from Hollywood*.

The film is about young troops getting their mettle tested by a difficult
military challenge. A testosterone-infused coming-of-age tale. Which is, at
least in part, what the book was about. The fascistic appearance and feel
of the Terran military also seems fairly accurate based on the trailers
I've seen and what I've read.

I've read the book. I'm not speaking from ignorance here. There's no way
the book is a feasible financial or marketable concept in its original
state. Verhoeven has taken the concept, and as is done in Hollywood, and
changed things to make it a movie.

I don't know why I beat this dead horse every time, but people have got to
realize that film making is a business. There are millions of dollars
involved. It's too bad that the reality of vector physics isn't observed
and that powered armor will not be shown, but the simple fact of the matter
is that audiences want sound effects in space. Fighter jets and WWII movies
are their point of reference for starships and ground troops, respectively.

For a successful film, you have to market it to the lowest common
denominator to a certain extent. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do some
smart film making to satisfy more intellectually developed members of the
audience, but big-budget sci-fi films *have* to get a big return at the box
office or they aren't made.

If the movie is good on a visceral level, people shouldn't turn their noses
up to it. Success of sci-fi movies like Starship Troopers can only breed
*more* sci-fi films and continued opportunities to make better ones.

>All this was misguided. It turns out what people should *really* have
>been asking was "Will it contain teen romance and a co-ed shower
>scene?" It's been a long time since I read the original, but I'm
>fairly sure there was no shower scene, and that romantic rivalry
>was not a major factor in the plot.

Again, adhering to the letter of Robert Heinlein would be an unprofitable
venture. I don't see how a group shower scene or some teen romance will
detract from this movie. It's entertainment. If you want to see films that
pay more strict homage to the original material, see a smaller independent
film like "Moll Flanders" or "The Mill on the Floss."

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:47:56 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Site

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> "You have joined the Legion to die. The Legion will send you where you
>  can die."
>                 (supposedly a sign in Legion orderly rooms)
>
> Substitute "Marines" for "Legion" in the above to get a sign that *is*
> found in CoDominium Line Marine orderly rooms.
>
> "March or die!"
>                 Old Foreign Legion "slogan"
>                 CD Line Marine slogan

Now, there is a movie series that is begging to be made!  Jerry Pournelle did a
really good job with that series - even when he expanded it far beyond the
original scope!

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:42:12 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Number of ships in the Imperium

Anders Backman wrote:

> >I agree that known pirate ships, and ships on the 'skip' list will be listed in
> >the general ship's registry, but I don't think that every ship, down to the
> >sub-light intra-system lighters and shuttles, will be.
> >
>
> And why is that (aside from the roleplaying aspect of the picket ships may
> not have your shipdata). Even if Traveller computers generally are lame
> compared to todays I'd suspect some improvement over the next thousand
> years.
>
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se

Anders,

I would have liked to have made this cleaner, but my workload is increasing
(finally!) so I have only been able to work on my reply in 'spurts'.  (ie a couple
of minutes here, a couple of minutes there).My reasoning:

Assumed - A detailed registry of all ships in the Sector and surrounding sectors
exists.  (See Ship's Registration and Crew Certifications

 Assumed (extrapolating from current practices) -  Military ship contracts are
offered to a variety of Naval Architects, representing shipyards around the sector,
and are awarded to the lowest bidder.

Assumed (extrapolating from current practices) -  Ship upgrades, repairs and
maintenance services will be offered to various corporations (to be performed at
Navy Shipyards) and starports (for outsourced work), and will be awarded to the
lowest bidder.

Confident -  Shipboard maintenance and minor upgrades will be performed by ship's
personnel.

Assumed (interpreting from canon sources) - Most enlisted personnel (the
technicians) serving in the military are conscripts.

Confident - The companies that pad the bids with 'frill' components will not get
the contracts (look at some of the ships that THUDD have generated...some really
nice ones, but the winners are the ones that come closest to the announced
specification, and cost the least).

Confident -  Memory and disk storage are components.

Assumed - There will be a certain amount of redundant storage space for emergancies
(failures, etc...)

Assumed - Larger ships will benefit from economies of scale.

Assumed - At a certain point, the amount of unused space will allow for some
luxuries (i.e. data not having to do with military functions) to be added (such as
a full civilian ship's registry).

Assumed - Cruisers are the smallest class of ship (10,000 dton +) where such
economies of scale begin to be commonplace.

Conclusion =  Military ship that are built by lowest bid companies, maintained by
lowest bid starports, and manned by conscripts and a smattering of volunteers.
Ships such as Patrol ships, Escorts and Destroyers are all smaller (5,000 dTon-)
ships that do not have a large profit margin - or margin for extras.  Larger ships
such as Cruisers, Battleships, Fleet Carriers, and Dreadnaughts benefit from
economy of scale, and will have margins for extras.  Additionally, such ships are
intended to act as command and control points, and it is logical to assume that
they would be routed such information.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 1997 18:00:43 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Triumph Monitor (TL4)

Triumph Monitor (TL4)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     25.00 displacement ton slab;  458 tonnes;  MCr 2.48
Chassis:
     350 kL slab (24 m long x 6.10 m wide x 2.2 m high);  Structure: 7.21
tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 2.0 cm thick
     Armour: 11 front (22 cm), 11 sides (22 cm), 11 rear (22 cm), 5 top (2.0
cm), 5 bottom (2.0 cm)
Performance:
     10.0 MW TL4 Steam power plant, water-cooled;  Fuel: 18.0 kL of coal
(36.0 tonnes), 48 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 10.0 MW watercraft; Maximum Speed: 7 km/h; 
Range: 361 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: helmsman, 52 gunners, 5 officers, 10 engineers, 20
deckhands;  88 crew stations
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   Reloads   Notes
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50       turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50       turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Very Heavy-4            20 (29 expMedium         1       50       turret10 gunners
     Cannon, Very Heavy-4            20 (29 expMedium         1       50       turret10 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50       turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50       turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100      turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100      turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100      turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100      turret3 gunners
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: recreation space, kitchen for 25 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     2.73 kL of cargo space

Designed for coastal defense, the Triumph allocates most of its internal
space to guns and magazines. In normal usage the ship is accompanied by a
fleet coaler to top off its bunkers on a daily basis. Although it has
moderate armour, theTriumph is essentially a floating gun platform intended
to fight in concert with coastal fortifications and lighter screening ships. 

A kitchen provides hot meals for the crew, but little else in the way of
amenities is provided. Being so close to port, the crew needs no recreational
facilities, instead being granted regular shore leave.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2057
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2058



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
GM aids: Fonts
Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech
Re: That three-letter word
Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech
Re: Piracy mechanics
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S
FF&S Spreadsheet V1.2 available
Re: unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)
Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: That three-letter word
Distance Function
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2057
Synchronous Jump
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2056
That three-letter word

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:36:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
 
> Synchronization does take extra time, but it's time spent in preperation.
> Take the Navy's Blue Angels.  These guys regularly flew withing inches of
> each other at very high speeds.  Doing this takes excellent pilots and
> intensive training.  Your average F/A-18 mission isn't going to require
> that level of coordination.
> 

What's more...those guys do it all on one or two year rotations! No one is
permanently assigned to the Angels. Lots and LOTS of training and
practice.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:33:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: GM aids: Fonts

Saw this today in rec.games.frp.announce:

I looked at them...they're oriented more towards fantasy settings, but the
floorplan fonts look useful. Of course, if you do fantasy GM'ing, too,
it's very useful...only $29 for the whole set.

The Scriptorium is a really nice source for fatasy-oriented fonts, well
designed and readable.

Bruce Johnson

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
After a lengthy development period we've finally released our new MapMaker
Fonts package.

This is a special set of 9 fonts specifically designed for gamemasters and
game designers who need to make maps and plans for their scenarios or
settings.

The idea of the MapMaker Fonts collection is to use the convenience of
one-keystroke access to make it possible to create original maps and plans
with extraordinary easy and speed on your computer.

Fonts in the package include:

Basilica - each character is an architectural element which can be
combined to make a wide variety of floor plans.

Ortelius - each character is a geographical feature which can be combined
with other characters to make a regional or world map.

Floorplans - each character is a historical building floorplan, including
churches, castles, houses and more.

Landscape - each character is a large scale landscape feature - trees,
bushes, rocks, etc, for mapping terrain.

Cityscape - each charactr is a profile of a building, including famous
landmarks, which can be combined to make a skyline of a city.

Also included are a number of attractive titling and captioning fonts for
use on your maps.

These are all original font designs, and they are available in both
TrueType and PostScript format for PC and MacOS based computers.  Unlike
traditional map-making software, these fonts allow you to use your
preferred art or DTP program, let you work in any scale you like, and
print at high resolution.

You can preview the package on our webiste, plus there's a shareware
version of the Ortelius font to try out AND a map design contest.

Check the package out at http://www.ragnarokpress.com/mapmaker

Dave

- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    I write both as an individual and as a company representative
Scriptorium Fonts & Graphic Arts:http://ragnarokpress.com/scriptorium
   Ysgarth RPG Site: http://www.ragnarokpress.com/ragnarok/ysgarth
- ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:25:24 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> If you're interested in Traveller technical and rules discussion, you can
> subscribe to trav-tech by sending an e-mail message that contains
> "subscribe" in the body to trav-tech-request@qrc.com.  A digest version is
> also availble, send requests to trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com.

Are the topics on this list restricted to T4 and T4.1? Or are MT
and other flavors acceptable?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:08:10 -0600 (CST)
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

>>Minor Races:
>>  Dolphins: The horniest creatures in known space (males and females both).
>
>I think the uplifted Solomani chimps would give them a run for the money...

Especially the bonobos. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:50:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

Derek, 

Hate to do this to you first thing, but, a) I'd like to subscribe and b)
I'm a special case (of course ;-)

Our mail is set up to all go out as 'user@pharmacy.arizona.edu' but that
gets forwarded to my desktop. I need to be susbcribed at the address

johnson@pill.pharmacy.arizona.edu 

so it goes to a machine I can see from home and be allowed to post, in
addition, as

johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu

Whihc is how all my mail from the Pharmacy.arizona.edu domain goes out as.

(as you can see if you look at the headers from this message.) I know it
can be done with majordomo, as Rob has fixed this for me on the TML.

Someday, when we get a rational mail system in place here my life will
simplify greatly, but until then...

TIA

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> The (old) GDW-Beta@qrc.com mailing list is going down, and will be replaced
> by trav-tech@qrc.com serving the same audience on the same topics.  The new
> list is managed by Majordomo, which should result in lower administrative
> overhead for me, and better service for all of the list members.
> 
> If you're interested in Traveller technical and rules discussion, you can
> subscribe to trav-tech by sending an e-mail message that contains
> "subscribe" in the body to trav-tech-request@qrc.com.  A digest version is
> also availble, send requests to trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com.
> 
> Posting to the trav-tech list is restricted to list members.  The list is
> archived (and the archives include the old GDW-Beta archives).  Archive
> index and retrieval commands are restricted to list members as well.  The
> archives will not be available or searchable by the web or to non-members.
> 
> 
> wildstar@qrc.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                   Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:56:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics

Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:26:03 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Computers can be upgraded and modest sized merchants can have
>>as many weapons.  When you add in the fact that, since the
>>pirate takes the initiative, he has to be able to win no
>>matter what tatical situation the pirate puts him in, I
>>find his level of fire power quite questionable for the role.

>  Yes, but upgrading computers costs money, which if it were
>available as cash at some point would obviate the need to
>engage in piracy (though not necessarily the desire...). The
>economic return issue rears its ugly head, as well as why no
>one would simply tag such a grossly over-equipped merchant as
>a potential security risk.

Well, I'm not sure why everyone knows you have such a
highly equiped equiped computer.  The fact is that
the Rebellion sourcebook has a model of ships designed
to hide the fact that it not only has a bigger computer,
but also more weaponry and a bigger jump and maneuver
rating than it is suppose to have.

As to the economics, the cost is small wrt to the ship
and so it is realy the same issue about whether someone
who owns a ship would engage in piracy.  I haven't
formed an opinion on this except to note that there
are so many ways you could be using a ship as to make
such an analysis mostly a case of guess work.  Ships
could be making money based on other trade (legit
trade, trade outside the Imperium, shipments that
other corps might want to interfere with, smugglers
with rivals, etc.) and only engage in piracy on the
side.  Similarly a ship could be so heavily in hock
that selling it would generate not revenue (and provide
a desperate need for new revenue).

>  While I support the possibility of part-time pirates looking
>for targets of opportunity, I find suggestions of their interest
>in challenging purpose built small warships highly dubious. There
>is no cargo, and no ship to take in the (highly) unlikely case
>that they win.

If you have, as people suggested, only one small system
defense boat guarding a sytem, then taking it out lets
you prey and any number of ships for some time.  A
small SDB is out gunned by even some moderate sized
merchants and it only take one ruthless person to
decide to get a couple of friends to take one out
so he can attack ships without fear of retaliation.

>  If the 200 ton /60 MCr traders represent the typical free trader

Um, no.  If you read the description this are tramp traders
operating on the leavings of larger ships.  In fact,
the rebellion source book lists a trader that is considerably
bigger and is still just a frontier transport operating
off of the main routes.  Nor can the
system defense boat be designed to handle a "typical"
ship.  It has to be designed to handle the biggest ships
that it comes up agaisnt in situation where those ships
can determine the tatical sitautions.  That is the inherent
problem in these types of situation and is the reason why
we had so much trouble in Vietnam in spite of superior
firepower.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:10:35 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

[Regarind Loren's words...  Amen.  Cat and Dog jokes can be
amussing, but one shouldn't let reduce what can be interesting
aliens to roleplay, Aslan and Vargr, to cliches.]

Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:12 -0700 (MST), Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

>While we're looking at biologically related determinants of culture, VArgr
>are going to be pretty territory-driven as well. They're derived from pack
>animals which stake out huge hunting territories and vigorously defend
>them from strangers.
>
>Perhaps the long standing tradition of Vargr raiding is based on a 'pack'
>claiming new hunting grounds.

Well, remember that is not clear that vargr are any more close
related to canines than we are to primates.  The fact that
they weren't as "highly evolved" as humans when the ancients
came along may have been more than made up for by the ancients
genetic manipulation.  Primates are just as pack orientated
as canines are and they have similar dominate male and female
hierarchies.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:22:00 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

>Also, I *think* (I may be wrong about this) that *any* sequence of
>digits will turn up in *any* irrational number if you carry it out to
>enough digits. It's a sort of "monkeys with typewriters" effect. So
>that kills it too.

I should add that there are other irrational numbers for which arbitrary
sequences of digits will show up somewhere (I think), but I'm sure there's
no proof one way or another what category pi is in.

However, even if pi does have all arbitrary sequences in it, in "Contact"
the circle showed up very early (relatively speaking) in pi - well before
you would expect it due to random chance.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:18:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

>Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:56:00 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>> Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
>> Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
>> port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.

>You can only connect Mac's and PC's up with TCP/IP through ethernet.

Not true.  You can run Mac TCP/IP through Appletalk too.  I did
this for anumber of years before I got an ethernet line
put into my office.  If the poster has access to an Appletalk
line, he just needs to hook it up and start running
MacTCP.  If he has not connection, he needs a modem,
and internet service provider, PPP or SLIP software
(there is some for free out there) and MacTCP.  If
he only has access to ethernet, then he needs the hardware
you mention below.

>If you have a Mac Plus with no internal expansion, what you need is a
>SCSI Ethernet Adaptor or EtherWave Adaptor.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:12:14 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

>Also, I *think* (I may be wrong about this) that *any* sequence of
>digits will turn up in *any* irrational number if you carry it out to
>enough digits. It's a sort of "monkeys with typewriters" effect.

Definitely not. For example, 0.121121112111121111121111112... is 
irrational, but no digits other than 1 or 2 will appear.

Whether the circle-in-pi is "valid" or not is more a question of 
philosphy...Yes, pi is built into mathematics, not into circles, but I always
interpreted it as indicating that the creator of the universe built mathematics
at some meta-level...a strange idea from an extreme aethist such as Sagan,
admittedly.

bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:29:15 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S

>          Short    Med     Long         Ext
>SSDS    300,000  600,000  1,200,000   2,400,000
>FF&S     30,000   60,000    120,000     240,000

>I like the FF&S system - I have trouble imagining engaging a target at 1.2
>million kilometers. But, it does mean that my spreadsheet's weapon USPs are
>incompatable with SSDS.

Actually, short/medium/long/extreme in FFS1 were set by your beam pointer - 
they could be anything from 1/2/4/8 hexes to 10/20/40/80. SSDS rather
arbitarily picked the longest of these as its range bands (a mistake, since
at low TL's it's hard to make weapons with ranges this good...and in BL,
maximum weapon range due to the range DM's was abotu 40 hexes anyway.)

>I like the FF&S system - I have trouble imagining engaging a target at 1.2
>million kilometers. But, it does mean that my spreadsheet's weapon USPs are
>incompatable with SSDS.
>Any comments?

Your spreadsheet should probably use the FFS system of having ranges set
by the beam pointer. 1.2 million km ranges aren't actually ludicrous. Clearly
(at high TL's) you can build lasers that have decent damage at those levels...
and it's actually not impossible to build lasers that can hit constant-
velocity targets at those ranges, even with TL-8 technology. What will limit
ranges is evasion - the ability of the target to randomly change its position
in the few seconds of there-and-back-again lightspeed lag between detection
and arrival of the laser pulse. It's unclear at what range this begins to 
become an issue - it's highly non-linear and depends on assumptions about
spacecraft pitch and yaw rates - but it's certainly more than 240,000km.
(This has been detbated at length on the list formerly known as gdw-beta.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:15:00 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: FF&S Spreadsheet V1.2 available

Version 1.2 of my FF&S Spreadsheet is now available. New features include:

* Ability to choose SSDS (300,000km short range) or FF&S (30,000km) weapon
ranging scheme for USPs.
* Fixed a bug dealing with weapon ranges.

The problem with translating between Quattro Pro and Excel has yet to be
solved, I've been translating them by hand. The problem is in the @FIXED
and @CONCATENATE functions, for some reason.

Some people have expressed concern with a large number of @ERRs or #VALUEs
on the Tables page - this is normal! These values represent impossible
values, such as the volume of a TL 8 Meson Communicator. So, if you get an
@ERR or #VALUE on your design, double check that you've got a valid
component before you declare it to be a bug in the spreadsheet (which is,
of course, still possible).

The spreadsheets (in Quattro Pro v8 and Excel 5 formats) can be found on
the Drydock page of my Traveller web site, found at
www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm. Let me know if there are any
comments/questions.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:02:24 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: unix and dos(formerly Re: Bilanidin Font)

I use 4DOS and Take Command for Win95, and I highly reccommend them.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:07:22 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In a message dated 97-11-05 09:42:57 EST, you write:

<< 
 I've just installed it ok on Win '95 - thanks to everyone for your help -
 highly recommended.
  >>

I have just downloaded and installed the Bilanidin font, and I think it looks
great as well. So here's the next task...

What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
we need to determine what each one's sound is...

At the same time, should we revise or restructure the Vilani sounds... and
the word generation table.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:11:56 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> I've often thought of Vargr pack dominance being a bigger drive than sex,
> per se -- plenty of para-sexual display and behavior that is really "about"
> control and prestige rather than sexual/reproductive gratification.  Which
> is little consolation to players when their Vargr commanding officer tries
> to mount whenever they report for duty...  player _characters_, I mean.

So, you play Vargr basically like... apes? Chimps? Sportscasters?
I mean, since when do humans not display pack dominance via para-sexual
behaviour? Or via outright sexual behaviour?

Kenji also wrote:
> I like this solution... interesting.  It seems that Aslan males are victims
> of a system that's the close cousin of a human male fantasy (c.f. Russ
> Meyer, esp. _Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!_) -- meek, earnest men being
> outnumbered and terrorized by swarms of agressive and sexually voracious
> women.  How ironic!

Hm... can TML digests be used in court? I hope not. May a psychologist
never connect me to "Faster, Pussycat!" in public.

Anyway, I didn't really picture Aslan females as "Faster, Pussycat!" types
as much as I thought of that Star Trek episode... you know, the one where
Spock gets the "seven year itch" and has to return to Vulcan to mate
or do whatever it was he needed to do. I envision Aslan females thinking of
estrus as a "taboo" kinda subject and, if they're single, perhaps isolating
themselves during their mating period. Sort of a physical denial-monastic 
thing. Of course, not every society will be the same.

It is, of course, somewhat iffy as to whether you can become the dominant
on your homeworld if you're still locked (as a race) in estrus cycles, as I've
heard theories that the human ability to mate year-round was critical to
our evolution, but the concept of a sentient race whose members go into
"heat" is interesting nonetheless.

> PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the intercom? <G>

As long as the door knob or intercom switch looks like either a sword hilt
or a trigger, sure.

"The female comm operator is dead! Sub-lieutenant Spots, fire the
 communicator and call in an airstrike!"

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:41:11 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Distance Function

Yo Folks,
     Has anyone coded a distance function to determine the distance between
two hexes numbered like they are in Traveller? I only discovered last night
that the one that I've been using for 5+ years is wrong (!).
     Basically int dist(fromx, fromy, tox, toy)
where x and y are as they are on a hex sheet. Thus
     dist(1, 1, 2, 1) = 1
and
     dist(1, 2, 2, 1) = 1
but
     dist(1, 1, 2, 2) = 2

Any language will do...
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:48:47 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Kikaagamshakruud Shugiliigim:

>In a message dated 97-11-05 09:42:57 EST, you write:
>
><<
> I've just installed it ok on Win '95 - thanks to everyone for your help -
> highly recommended.
>  >>
>
>I have just downloaded and installed the Bilanidin font, and I think it looks
>great as well. So here's the next task...
>
>What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
>between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
>we need to determine what each one's sound is...
>
>At the same time, should we revise or restructure the Vilani sounds... and
>the word generation table.
>
>Marc Miller

<Screams of pain and resignation from the TravLang list and the "Teach
Yourself Vilani!" project>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:04:52 -0800
From: Eric Evans <ebevans@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2057

Chris Griffen said:

>Just because the movie isn't "The English Patient" doesn't mean it's not
>worth seeing.

Actually, that's all the more reason. They shot that movie in some ugly,
ugly desert. You want pretty desert, watch Lawrence of Arabia.

- -----------------------------------------
Eric Evans

"There seemed an
                 inevitability in
          degradation"
			  --T.E. Lawrence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:17:35 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Synchronous Jump

I've always assumed that although Jump Duration is subject to variation due
to (something or other we don't understand), if a number of ships Jump
close together in both time and space, using crosslinked navigation data
and course programmes, then their Jump conditions will be so similar that
all the ships will effectively Jump as a unit (though each is in a seperate
J bubble), and will emerge together.
How does that sound?
MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:28:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2056

>  Aslan: Roughly similar to humans, but drive stronger in females than males.

Well, it depends.  If you buy that human male sex drive is
higher than human female sex drive, then this can be interpreted
as occuring because one man can have children with multiple
partners while multiple partners doesn't increase the
number of children a female can have.  The 3 to 1
ratio may modify things a _bit_ with Aslan, but this
dynamic would, IMO, still hold.

As far as how fundamental the clan structure for
mating is.  The Aslan are presented as being drived
from a species where males would
have sole access to a group a females (like a number
of Terran mamalian species of which lions are only
one example).  Among our closest relatives, is also
true.  Males collect harems of females (and since
the male female ratio is 1:1 this is more at the
expense of other males).  Among primates, females
"cheating" on the dominate male behind his back
occurs.  I don't know about other species.

My guess is that a "single" female (ie own that is
still living with her parent clan) would have an
attitude similar to a human woman from a society that
does not believe in premarital sex (ie it happens,
but it isn't suppose to) though clans being willing
to accept in offspring from their "unmarried" female
ofspring, or access to reliable birth control being
seen as removing problems with casual sex, then this
might be relaxed.  I would think that "married" Aslan
would be similar to married human females (again from
a society that values fidelity highly).

>  Vargr: High-SOC individuales get more chances to mate.

just like with humans....

>  Both sexes find
>    sex pleasurable, but sex drive is based on seasonal factors (higher and
>    lower at various times of the year).

Unclear.  Such seaonal variations occur so births occur when
prey is plentifull.  However, it is not clear if this would
have been dropped out by the ancients (to aid in breeding)
or would have been lost in evolution on Lair.

>  Droyne: They're not telling, other than that it requires 6 droyne of the
>    appropriate castes, and a ceremony that was prescribed by Grandfather.

I don't think that the actual sex act requires all 6 droynes present.
I only requires one of the female cast (what is that name again...)
and one of the Alpha male casts (Leaders and Sports) who are
living in proximity with a Beta male (Techinician, Warrior, etc)
Nor do I think the Grandfather prescribed the cermony where the
ofspring were concieved, just the one where they were casted.

>This points to another pitfall when dealing with aliens in a SF game.  Most
>referees tend to play an alien race as one huge monoculture.

There is a tension here.  You want them to be fundamentally
different, but not clones of each other.   IMO the thing to
do is first note what the human "average" is and then realize
that one is discussing how "average alien" varies from and
average human.  (Realising that one is _not_ discussing
the one place that all aliens fit in compared to the
range of human behavior).

For all it's flaws, Star Trek does  good job of showing
Kligons to be different in out look while still showing
variation between the Klingon characters presented (for
example, some are more weasly, some more jovial, and
some more stuck on honor, all within the klingon range
of variation than the human).

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:58:34 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: That three-letter word

> From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

> For those of you that are curious, here's what I've done when the 
> question has come up:
> Major Races:

>   Vargr: High-SOC individuales get more chances to mate.  Both sexes find
>     sex pleasurable, but sex drive is based on seasonal factors (higher and
>     lower at various times of the year).

Vargr males should be rather insane on the subject (as Vargr males tend
to be on every subject).  They're always ready, but females are only in
estrus a few times a year.  Vargr from most cultures are oriented
towards material benefits and pleasure, so sex would be very important
to them.  

>   Centaurs: The K'Kree are rather reticent on this topic.

I'd expect that the K'kree mate only to reproduce, and that they exhibit
some herd-type behaviors, like one dominant male being bonded to several
females.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2058
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 5 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2059



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: That three-letter word
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Kinky Alien Sexual Practices
Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
Re: Transponders
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
re:CT product query
Re: Distance Function
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Synchronous Jump
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:08:58 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

At 01:10 PM 11/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>[Regarind Loren's words...  Amen.  Cat and Dog jokes can be
>amussing, but one shouldn't let reduce what can be interesting
>aliens to roleplay, Aslan and Vargr, to cliches.]

Indeed.
>Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:12 -0700 (MST), Bruce Johnson
><johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>
>>While we're looking at biologically related determinants of culture, VArgr
>>are going to be pretty territory-driven as well. They're derived from pack
>>animals which stake out huge hunting territories and vigorously defend
>>them from strangers.

>Well, remember that is not clear that vargr are any more close
>related to canines than we are to primates.  The fact that
>they weren't as "highly evolved" as humans when the ancients
>came along may have been more than made up for by the ancients
>genetic manipulation.  Primates are just as pack orientated
>as canines are and they have similar dominate male and female
>hierarchies.

Given the other things that the Ancients did, I suspect a DM can rule
virtually anything as reasonable.  I suspect that giving up the inherent
chaos of Vargr society, or the rapidly changing charisma would be a bad idea.

I will likely use the idea that a good "first crack" assessment of Vargr or
Aslan behavior would be the terrestrial wolf and tiger, as both of those
are fairly near the top of the food chain in their environments.  On the
other hand, I also use chimp behavior as a good first assessment for human
behavior on the part of other races.

The model is not great, but it explains enough that someone foolish enough
to use it for anything more than a rough guess will suffer what they deserve.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:33:53 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:06:48 -0800, Scott Ellsworth
<Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>Well, you _know_ I don't agree that you can use an already exisiting
>>force without diminishing the effectiveness of that force for
>>its primary (military) use.

>An important issue - mission creep because of civilian complaints.  If
>piracy of very expensive vessels happens regularly, then either the
>citizens will complain, the citizens will build deadly vessels themselves,
>or the Navy will stop it.  From what you said, you feel the citizens of the
>unpopular planets will just whine about it, as you previously noted that
>you could not see the Imperium allowing private navies that could rival
>their own.  (I must agree with that - I cannot see any Empire allowing a
>world to get built up enough that it could secede.)

Well, this is a different topic.  Would complaints push
the Imperium to divert forces away from the military
toward piracy?  Of course the answer is that "it depends".
It depends on the losses due to piracy, the percieved
losses due to piracy, how much the Imperium listens
to complaints, etc.  This is really the "how much
does the Imperium want to get rid of piracy question"
and, to me, is clearly something that depends on how
the GM set up the campaign.

As to armed ships.  The Imperium _does_ allowed merchants
to be armed on they often are.  Otherwise you wouldn't
see all those armed merchant designs in CT and MT source
books and all merchants wouldn't automatically come with
hardpoints waiting for weapons.

>but the level of resources possessed is so large compared to
>the area required to patrol that they could without materially affecting
>their striking power (1% is not a major difference to their fleet makeup.
>I know you argue that just because they have the capability, they will not
>choose to use it, but given the political pressure, it seems like the
>Imperium would be war torn if it did not.)

Well, I've said before large organization don't just blow
away 1% of their resources like that.  The US military
cares very much if congress were to cut their budget
1%.  Similarly NASA is only about 1 or 2% of the US budget
but it doesn't get money without anyone caring because it
is such a small amount.

>I know you argue that just because they have the capability, they will not
>choose to use it, but given the political pressure, it seems like the
>Imperium would be war torn if it did not.)

I find this highly debatable.   The Imperium is not going
to be torn by civil war because it didn't divert 1% of
it's miltary budget to stopping one kind of crime any
more than the large US cities are torn by civil strife
because the US doesn't take 1% of the US military and
use them to wipe out transit crime.

Mercants aren't going to get to bent out of shape if
they have us much chance of getting mugged in the starport
as they do of pirates taking their cargoes.  Things are
different if piracy is so rampant that ships are being
taken left and right, but that is not what I'm talking
about.

>Were the items at risk not as expensive as the yearly maintenance on ~5
>defender ships of similar size, or one good sized patrol craft that could
>crush any casual pirate, then the situation changes.  Insurers will not
>care as much, and if one merchant in a million is lost, then it become more
>like car jacking than the Lindbergh kidnapping.

Yeah, but it is, in fact, reasonable that pirates will
concentrate on taking cargoes (less determined oppostion,
etc. this has been debated and look at the list archive
for discussion).  One has to loose a lot of cargoes to
justify multiple patrol ships at every world that
has traffic in every system.

>>   I'm not sure what the point in
>>reasserting your view as if it were fact is, unless you either want
>>me to just give in because you keep raising it or you somehow
>>expect that I will be willing for the both of us to simply
>>repeat the points we didn't agree on before.

>He is using the exact same technique you are.  Both of you assert your
>views as if they are fact, when in reality, they are both based on rather
>large chains of assumption about the rules, the politics, and other
>details.

Well, to.  I _don't_ take point that we both know we disagree
on, and have beaten into the ground several times already,
and baldly assert them to be true in a reply to posts
on other points.  This isn't the same thing as standing up
for his postion.

>  It is my opinion that Hans arguments carry more weight, but that
>is because he is arguing from a very numerical resources/costs basis, and I
>am an engineer working for economists.  That kind of argument is going to
>appeal to me.  Both you and he have noted several critical differing
>assumptions.

Well, we both have numerical analysis.  The point as you note,
are his assumptions and mine are different.  I don't see
the fact that he dresses them up with calculations, while
I don't see the point in calcultion when you can't even
agree on the basis numbers for those calculations, as
making them any more valid.  I would suspect that this
has more to do with the fact that you agree with him.

>Both of your respond whenever this thread comes up, each hoping to win by
>exhaustion

Wrong.  This particular message resulted from Hans jumping
in on a reply that was wrapping up a discussion with someone
other than Hans and bringing up old points.  Now you
have jumped into my reply to Hans.  The only post that
I made in weeks that wasn't a reply was one that did
nothing more than disagree with someone that was trying
to claim that there was no disagreement that piracy
was impossible.

>I cannot imagine either one of you being willing to let the other one get
>the last post at this point

Well, I have posted numerous times how "well I just happen to
not agree with that".  If Hans has simply not jumped in with
new messages and reraising old points this would have stopped
some time back.

>See if the other parties, like me, in this debate do the same, once the two
>of you stop.

Well, yes they have.  I don't happen to feel that I have to
either respond to every post or suddently cut off replies
to anyone.  Simply acknowledging that two people have
beaten a topic into the ground and moving on should
be enough.  I wish to be able reply to someone on one
of the few points that have not been beaten to death,
or which has thing that two of use haven't resolved, or
simply explainto someone why I have a certain postion
without having to redebate every point on the thread with
Hans.

>If you are having fun with it, then by all means go ahead and continue - I
>certainly am not the list cop

They why are you jumping into an exchange between Hans and
me and lecturing me on how to post?

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:41:07 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Kinky Alien Sexual Practices

At 03:28 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Dave Summers wrote:

....
>Among primates, females
>"cheating" on the dominate male behind his back
>occurs.  I don't know about other species.

From the reading I have done, it looks like a strong alpha male will not
get a lot of cheating among most of the pack critters.  If the issue is in
doubt, cheating becomes more likely.

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:51:36 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking

05 Nov 1997 12:59 EST, "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
[A lot of these points have been amply covered.  I will summarize
one view on them for those who seem to have missed the thread,
but I'm not going to revisit the thread.  I will only reply
to those who don't understand the points.]

>1) SDBs are sufficient deterrent to pirates, but are only in force
>   on class A and B starported systems.  Why this would be, I am
>   not sure.
>
>2) Lower-class starports do not field many (or any) SDBs, and thus
>   may have pirates lurking about.

Well, my take is that keeping patrols going in systems with
low traffic and little military importance just isn't seen
as being worth the cost.  Obviously this has been debated
based on reasons and assumptions that are too numerous
to go into.

Also, not everyone believes that pirates "lurk".  There is
a school that maintains that they are ships engaged in other
business (legit and illegit) and only take targets
that present themselves, much like how muggers in
the USA work.

>3) For some reason most traders are not armed (!!).  Why this would
>   be, I am not sure.

Well, one possibility is that piracy doesn't occur often enough
for the occaisional lost cargo to cost more than investing
money into weapons.

>4) Pirates are lightly armed and steal cargo.  Why they would not
>   normally steal an entire ship, I am not sure.

If you try and take the whole ship you...
a) Have to take the crew also.  The raises the possibility
that you are going to kill them (rather than just shoot
them if they come into the cargo area when you are taking
the cargo).  They then become motivated to render the
ship unjumpable (so it isn't worth taking it and them)
and to fight any boarding action.

b) You have to take the ships in jump capable condition
(no battle damage or crew sabotage).

c) The greater cost and loss of people makes the authorities
more motivated to catch you.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:04:46 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Transponders

At 02:58 AM 11/2/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Guy Hunter writes:
>>Hmmm, I guess this is where we differ - I look at the Imperium as one big
>>Empire - therefore as long as you are within its borders you are free to
>>come and go as you choose... Its when you leave you need to have papers -
>>more or less to prove that you are actually citizens of the imperium - but
>>for the most part i would wager nearly 10-25% of the population in my
>>universe moves around from world to world - that would be an extremely
>>high overhead to maintain track of... 
>
>10% of the Imperium's 15 trillion inhabitants is 1,500,000 million people.
>If the average lifespan was 75 years and each of them took ONE round trip
>(one jump-1 mid passage out and one jump-1 mid passage home) once in a
>lifetime, you'd have 40,000 million jump-1 trips per year. You'd need
>500,000 5000 T pure passenger liners to carry that number of people,
>assuming 100% occupancy. Or you'd need more than 13 million 600 T pure
>passenger liners with 90% occupancy. A planet with 10 billion inhabitants
>would need 8900 600 T liners just to take care of its own citizens, ships
>from neighboring worlds not included.
>
>If some of them take high passage or 2-parsec trips or if some of the ships
>carry cargo you need more ships. If some of them actually takes more than
>one round trip per lifetime, the number of ships required gets kinda big...
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>
	I thought an earlier posting gave the Imperial pop as 10 to the
	16th people but 15 trillion is only 10 to the 13th people. If the
	latter number is correct, then some calculations on the piracy
	thread may not be accurate. Could someone clarify the Imperial 
	total population, please? My own calculations yield a value of
	1.8 times ten to the thirteenth people, but I am not certain of 
	the basis for these calculations and would appreciate seeing a
	restatement of the underlying criteria.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:58:57 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> >Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:56:00 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> >> Sure. Now tell me how to get my Mac+ to *talk* TCP/IP. It's got an
> >> Appletalk(serial) port, a printer (serial) port, a SCSI port, a floppy
> >> port and a mouse port. And *no* slots.
> 
> >You can only connect Mac's and PC's up with TCP/IP through ethernet.
> 
> Not true.  You can run Mac TCP/IP through Appletalk too.  I did
> this for anumber of years before I got an ethernet line
> put into my office.  If the poster has access to an Appletalk
> line, he just needs to hook it up and start running
> MacTCP.  If he has not connection, he needs a modem,
> and internet service provider, PPP or SLIP software
> (there is some for free out there) and MacTCP.  If
> he only has access to ethernet, then he needs the hardware
> you mention below.

I guess my statement was unclear. I've been misunderstood.

afaik, if you want to connect up Mac's *together with* PC's, and use
TCP/IP protocol, then you _need_ ethernet. PC's don't grok appletalk.
That's I believe, what Leonard wants to do.

Yes, if you have a purely Mac based network, you can run TCP/IP through
Appletalk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:00:59 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Kikaagamshakruud Shugiliigim:

For those of you not involved in travlang, this translates roughly as:

"Thus spake miller." 

:)

> >I have just downloaded and installed the Bilanidin font, and I think it looks
> >great as well. So here's the next task...

Thanks! Glad you liked it.

> >What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
> >between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
> >we need to determine what each one's sound is...

Actually, the font was designed so that it transliterated english
letters, not Vilani sounds. I'm working on the Vilani based one now. I'm
including kh, sh, ii, aa, uu as distinct symbols.

I was inspired by the artist who did the lettering in DGP's Starship
Operators' Manual.

> >At the same time, should we revise or restructure the Vilani sounds... and
> >the word generation table.
> >
> >Marc Miller
> 
> <Screams of pain and resignation from the TravLang list and the "Teach
> Yourself Vilani!" project>

Poor Kenji.

I think what he's getting at is, we've (well, he's done most the work :)
) been working hard coming up with a constructed Vilani language.
(Trekkies have Klingon, after all) We would hate to see it go to waste.

We've been using previously published sound and random generation
charts. To change them would invalidate a lot of the work we've put into
it.

I see no reason to change 'em. If they ain't broke, why 'fix' them?

baaluu in maluu inki binerii

- -- Glenn Hoppe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:56:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:CT product query

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:

>God, it must be >10 years since I ran that...the only memory I have is of
>an ex-Imperial Marine in BD stomping on lab rats...

My only memory (say 9 years old) is my character sitting at one of the
interlinking sections with two shots left in his magnum revolver while the
last of the creatures lurked below, killing the last of my companions!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:11:39 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Distance Function

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> Yo Folks,
>      Has anyone coded a distance function to determine the distance between
> two hexes numbered like they are in Traveller? I only discovered last night
> that the one that I've been using for 5+ years is wrong (!).
>      Basically int dist(fromx, fromy, tox, toy)
> where x and y are as they are on a hex sheet. Thus
>      dist(1, 1, 2, 1) = 1
> and
>      dist(1, 2, 2, 1) = 1
> but
>      dist(1, 1, 2, 2) = 2
> 
> Any language will do...

Just a few weeks ago, Michael Koehne asked that very question. Here's
the function I came up with:

Let dX = toX - fromX
    dY = toY - fromY

If |2dY|<=|dX|+1 then D=|dX|
                 else D=|dX|/2 dn + |dY|

This algorithm (c)1997 Glenn Hoppe. ;->

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:15:31 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

At 05:11 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>Kenji Schwarz wrote:

>> PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the
intercom? <G>
>
>As long as the door knob or intercom switch looks like either a sword hilt
>or a trigger, sure.

I think we're overstating the gneder identifycation of roles just a bit.
An Aslan male would have to know the basics of how to survive in a
technological society (doors and comm switches), plus wahtever incidental
knowledge he picked up along his normal cultural path.

An Aslan "Robinson Crusoe" would either figure out how to fend for himself
*quickly* or die.  Given that the cultural bias runs so deep, I can see
many a shipwrecked Aslan dying due to his lack of practical knowledge.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:10:13 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Synchronous Jump

At 12:17 AM 11/5/97 -0000, you wrote:
>I've always assumed that although Jump Duration is subject to variation due
>to (something or other we don't understand), if a number of ships Jump
>close together in both time and space, using crosslinked navigation data
>and course programmes, then their Jump conditions will be so similar that
>all the ships will effectively Jump as a unit (though each is in a seperate
>J bubble), and will emerge together.
>How does that sound?

That's how I picture it.  The real headache is in coordinating the exact
jump entry parameters for everything from a 400 ton Gazelle to a 500,000
ton Tigress.  This is also might be why standardized designs are so popular
in the Imperium.. if you are a convoy master, you don't have to figure the
differences between 20 different ships, if they are all Mammoth class
haulers..
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:22:12 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

At 03:58 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Glenn wrote:
>> From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

>>   Centaurs: The K'Kree are rather reticent on this topic.
>
>I'd expect that the K'kree mate only to reproduce, and that they exhibit
>some herd-type behaviors, like one dominant male being bonded to several
>females.

I'd take the opposite view. K'Kree are herd creatures with almost no sense
of privacy.. Odds are mating is done in public, or at least in the clan's
area.  Remember the bit in JTAS where a K'Kree diplomat told a human
reporter he could smell what the human had for dinner, along with who his
bed partner had been?  Maintaining any sort of decorum under those
circumstances would be impossible.

Also, clashes over mates among young males might be a regular part of
society, with the winner taking his new bride right there!  (Imagine RPing
a noble lady of the Imperium, on a trade mission to the Two Thousand Worlds
being invited to her host's son's "wedding"...)
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:05:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)

Hello,
>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:56:19 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics
....
>Well, I'm not sure why everyone knows you have such a
>highly equiped equiped computer.  The fact is that

  No, but if the 3I/IN/INI want to know, they have a good chance
of finding out, even before it's installed. End user certificates
would be a simple way to go.

>the Rebellion sourcebook has a model of ships designed
>to hide the fact that it not only has a bigger computer,
>but also more weaponry and a bigger jump and maneuver
>rating than it is suppose to have.

  I assume you're referring to the Type TJ. If so, keep in mind 
that this is really a subsidized vessel carrying out business
for the Imperial Household.

>As to the economics, the cost is small wrt to the ship
>and so it is realy the same issue about whether someone
>who owns a ship would engage in piracy.  I haven't
>formed an opinion on this except to note that there
>are so many ways you could be using a ship as to make
>such an analysis mostly a case of guess work.  Ships
>could be making money based on other trade (legit
>trade, trade outside the Imperium, shipments that
>other corps might want to interfere with, smugglers
>with rivals, etc.) and only engage in piracy on the

  The % cost depends on the size of the ship, OC. I agree that
your view of normal economic activities above makes a good deal
of sense, as it supplies the potential pirate with revenue, cover,
contacts, and a target selection process.

>side.  Similarly a ship could be so heavily in hock
>that selling it would generate not revenue (and provide
>a desperate need for new revenue).

  Pardon? I don't get a clear meaning here.

....
>merchants and it only take one ruthless person to
>decide to get a couple of friends to take one out
>so he can attack ships without fear of retaliation.

  On the wolf-pack thing - it only takes one ruthless SOB
to collect the reward money on all those would-be pirates
- - or one plant, leak, or chance warship encounter etc.

>>  If the 200 ton /60 MCr traders represent the typical free trader
>
>Um, no.  If you read the description this are tramp traders
>operating on the leavings of larger ships.  In fact,
>the rebellion source book lists a trader that is considerably
>bigger and is still just a frontier transport operating

  The type TI? Sure, but where do your pirates get the cash for a
_2000_ Dt ship? Or have they mutinied, and no-one has processed
the paperwork yet to alert the authorities? The TI is also purpose
built to provide cover to the TJ, so the real role is in question.

>off of the main routes.  Nor can the
>system defense boat be designed to handle a "typical"
....

  Actually, as you (IIRC) pointed out, and I agreed, SDB's are very
unlikely to be present in peacetime except in systems capable of
supporting (and usually, therefore, of building) them. Those systems
are unlikely to have one, as the shipyard cap. to build one implies
the budget to maintain rather more.

  The issue then becomes what are anti-piracy/internal security ships
capable of, and the supply of 300 and 400 Dt ships for that purpose
would indicate that by canon, the vast majority of potential pirates
are inferior to those vessels.

  If the debate is to become one of larger pirate vessels then we
have to clarify where these independent pirates are getting these
ships, and the requisite funding for acquisition or operations.

  Hmm, Oberlindes has an AHL, right?...

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:59 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

Kenji wrote:

[snip]
>
>Agree with you there.  I thought it was a really neat idea, until I thought
>of this.  There's a digital recording of Milli Vanilli's first album in
>there, too.


	Hey.  I'm wounded.  Some of my best singing ever went into that album.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:09:03 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>
>>Agree with you there.  I thought it was a really neat idea, until I thought
>>of this.  There's a digital recording of Milli Vanilli's first album in
>>there, too.
>
>
>        Hey.  I'm wounded.  Some of my best singing ever went into that album.


That explains -- everything.


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:07:37 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

>Are the topics on this list restricted to T4 and T4.1? Or are MT
>and other flavors acceptable?

One of the two core roles for gdw-beta is beta-testing of actual rules
(to the extent that that's not a foriegn concept for IG, of course) and 
suggestions for rules revisions - so in that role, the focus is naturally on
T4. The other core role for the new list is discussing the underlying
technology - How Laser Weapons Work, for example - which is applicable to
all flavours, I would say.

(Though of course the illustrious Mr. Garnett has the last word.)

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2059
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2060



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: That three-letter word
jump duration/synchronization
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Did anyone miss me?
Re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S
Re: That three-letter word
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Recoil in shame and horror --
TravLang Subscription
Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:08:58 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Doug Berry wrote:

>At 05:11 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Ethan Henry wrote:
>>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>
>>> PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the
>intercom? <G>
>>
>>As long as the door knob or intercom switch looks like either a sword hilt
>>or a trigger, sure.
>
>I think we're overstating the gneder identifycation of roles just a bit.

Er, yes, very much so -- for humor rather than serious discussion, is what
I had in mind. <G>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:13:09 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: jump duration/synchronization

I've tended to assume that Nav(astro)gation skill has some effect on
duration - good navigators get durations closer to the short end of the
allowed range. Good navigators can also estimate in advnc e what their
duration will be, and deliberately lengthen their jump to synchronize
with other ships.

(An interesting note on variable jump length is that it provides a reason
not to do what Marc called "running" jumps. Since planets, stars, etc., are
all moving, the only reasonable assumption with variable jump duration is
that your jump exit point moves with time at your initial pre-jump
velocity; so if you're at rest with respect to your target planet/star,
it doesn't matter if you come out a day early or late; but if you're
moving at 8 hexes per turn (typical for a 1-G ship doing a running
jump) and you emerge a day early you're nearly 400 hexes from your
desitnation - which is a big deal.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:17:10 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> Kikaagamshakruud Shugiliigim:
>
>For those of you not involved in travlang, this translates roughly as:
>
>"Thus spake miller."
>
>:)
>
>> >I have just downloaded and installed the Bilanidin font, and I think it
>>looks
>> >great as well. So here's the next task...
>
>Thanks! Glad you liked it.
>
>> >What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
>> >between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
>> >we need to determine what each one's sound is...
>
>Actually, the font was designed so that it transliterated english
>letters, not Vilani sounds. I'm working on the Vilani based one now. I'm
>including kh, sh, ii, aa, uu as distinct symbols.
>
>I was inspired by the artist who did the lettering in DGP's Starship
>Operators' Manual.
>
>> >At the same time, should we revise or restructure the Vilani sounds... and
>> >the word generation table.
>> >
>> >Marc Miller
>>
>> <Screams of pain and resignation from the TravLang list and the "Teach
>> Yourself Vilani!" project>
>
>Poor Kenji.

Well, I suppose I should hedge that a bit:  screams of pain aren't
_intrinsically_ a bad thing, IME.

There are some odd things about Vilani phonology; not totally out of line
with some real-world languages, but just very unusual.  I think we've come
up with pretty good "explanations" for them.  I'm content with it as it
stands, I guess.

>I think what he's getting at is, we've (well, he's done most the work :)
>) been working hard coming up with a constructed Vilani language.
>(Trekkies have Klingon, after all) We would hate to see it go to waste.

We even have idioms and a folktale in Vilani!  And tons of sentences
illustrating grammatical constructions, all about Eneri and his eneri and
Sharik and the Seven Shugilii!  Don't let this priceless contribution to
Travellerdom go to waste!

>We've been using previously published sound and random generation
>charts. To change them would invalidate a lot of the work we've put into
>it.
>
>I see no reason to change 'em. If they ain't broke, why 'fix' them?

Seconded.

>baaluu in maluu inki binerii

 -- Shugilii biilem

<G>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:16:25 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

> From: CardSharks@aol.com

> What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
> between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
> we need to determine what each one's sound is...

26 symbols?  That feels to me too close to the 26 letters familiar to
every English speaker.  Shouldn't we have 30 or 22 or something?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:25:03 +0000
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Did anyone miss me?

Hi, 

I'm back, in case anyone cares, after an unplanned abscence.

Please note the new address below.


R. Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:16:18 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S

At 08:12 am 11/05/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>It has come to my attention that my FF&S spreadsheet is calculating weapon
>USPs based on the old system of .1 lightsecond(ls) - .2ls - .4ls - .8ls
>whereas SSDS for some reason does 1ls-2ls-4ls-8ls. Thus my ranges are off -
>maybe :)
>
>The .1ls scheme coresponds to the old Brilliant Lances system where the
>ranges also equaled hexes (1hex-2hex-4hex-8hex). I'm no physisist, but
>these numbers seem more reasonable than SSDSs ranges.
>
>For example, here are ranges in km:
>
>          Short    Med     Long         Ext
>SSDS    300,000  600,000  1,200,000   2,400,000
>FF&S     30,000   60,000    120,000     240,000
>
>I like the FF&S system - I have trouble imagining engaging a target at 1.2
>million kilometers. But, it does mean that my spreadsheet's weapon USPs are
>incompatable with SSDS.
>
>Any comments?

	Well, actually, the old system WASN'T a fixed 0.1ls-0.2ls-0.4ls-0.8ls.
Under BL/BR/FF&S it _wasn't_ always 1-2-4-8 hexes--it depended on the
weapon itself. Different weapons had different ranges. For example, some
weapons had short ranges of 10 hexes, which meant the progression went
10-20-40-80. Basically, when you designed a weapon using FF&S (original),
the short range of the weapon was one of the results. Medium was then 2x,
Long was 4x, and Extreme was 8x.

	For T4, we were told that the range bands would be fixed instead of weapon
dependent (which I didn't like, but ...). Since QSDS/SSDS were supposed to
be derived from FF&S, we chose 10-20-40-80. Hence the 1ls-2ls-4ls-8ls ...

	To summarize: FF&S/BL/BR did NOT have fixed range bands at
1hex-2hex-4-hex-8 hex. In fact, those were pretty weak, short-ranged
weapons. Instead, the range bands depended on the weapon's characteristics.

	SSDS/QSDS weapons were rated using the maximum range bands for FF&S
weapons: 10-20-40-80. 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:35:53 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>I thought there was actually a considerable amount of variation in the
>Aslan 'culture'. [C]lans tended to have similar culture [...] within the 
>clan, but other than the clan being the basis of government, and
biologically 
>mediated factors [...] there was considerable variation between clans

While that's theoretically true from a governmental sense (in that no clan
governs any other clan), it's not true in a practical, social sense.  
'Fteirle' (the word the Aslan use to name themselves) refers to the social
system, not the biology.  I believe one of the Alien supplements established 
that there was a lengthy conclave on what exactly it meant to be 'Fteirle',
and clans started grabbing the territory of heretical opponents before the
results were even formally published.

The net result being that clans which do not cleave fairly closely to the
accepted definition of 'Fteirle' are considered (at least by the Fteirle) as 
being outcast and non-persons.  Non-persons, of course, have no right to hold 
land that could be petter put to use by convenient ihaeti, so ihaeti fleets 
get fitted out to take that land away (by use of force).

>Perhaps the long standing tradition of Vargr raiding is based on a 'pack'
>claiming new hunting grounds.

That's a possibility, and it means (that like personal agressiveness,
leadership challenges, and reproductive drive) is probably governed by the
turn of the seasons (length of day, temperature, and similar factors).  A
cagey captain mught be able to manipulate this effect in an artificial
environment like a ship.

>Man o man, I wonder what the life of an omega Vargr is like...

Well, assuming that Vargr social structures are similar to dogs or wolves
(which makes a certain amount of sense) there wouldn't be very many perks (or 
reproductive opportunities), plus a very submissive attitude would be
required and enforced.  While the omega would probably take the brunt of the 
blame and punishment for any problems, it's also the case that the omega is 
the (only!) one who initiates play.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:51:22 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
>Starship troopers are sexy, pirates are sexier, fonts are the sexiest...

KIBO!!!!   :-)

I _knew_ this 'Kenji Schwartz' was a pseudonym (obviously a bogus
name, but who)?   I was having a devil of a time figuring out, but
the weirdness of your ideas had a familiar ring.

The fonts were a dead giveaway ... of course!


[for those of you who have no idea who/what I'm talking about, it's
 supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and (hopefully) funny.  Those of you
 who know can tell me if I've succeeded.]


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:10:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recoil in shame and horror --

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> IC:  Pope?  <check Imperial Encyclopedia>  Why would a dead poet object?
>>> Oh.  <recheck>  Ah!  Shepherd of the flock... heh heh, how ironic.  Hm...
>>> rather intriguing.  <Mutter to colleagues> ...threat to cosmic security...
>>> <mutter> ...expedited extraction... ...debriefing... <mutter> ...yes, yes,
>>> excessive force... <mutter>.  So, er, where might we find this... "Pope"?
>>
>>Don't worry, Sister Evangeline has been dispatched to help you.
>>(very obscure Comico reference :-)
>
> Huh? <duck reference zipping over head> Well, like they say, sisterhood is
> powerful.

Evangeline is a character in a comic of the same name (from Comico).
She's a nun in a future with space travel and star travel (her first
adventure was on Mars, a latter one was on a interstellar colony
world). She's also an assassin for the Church. A very *good* assassin.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1997 04:02:32 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: TravLang Subscription

I sent in a subscribe to the travlang server, then another message asking for
digest mode.  I haven't received anything since then.  (I did get an error
message when my first request was mistyped, so I know the server is there.)  

Has thelist been very quiet, or is there a problem?  If there is a problem,
could the travlang list admin please help me get on the list?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:46:06 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
> > Are the topics on this list restricted to T4 and T4.1? Or are MT
> > and other flavors acceptable?
>
> One of the two core roles for gdw-beta is beta-testing of actual rules
> and suggestions for rules revisions - so the focus is naturally on
> T4.  The other core role for the new list is discussing the underlying
> technology - How Laser Weapons Work, for example - which is applicable to
> all flavours, I would say.

Exactly.  Thanks, Bruce.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:35:46 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>  Aslan: Roughly similar to humans, but drive stronger in females than
males.
> Well, it depends.  The 3 to 1 ratio may modify things a _bit_ with 
> Aslan, but this dynamic would, IMO, still hold.

I made a slightly different assumption.  In Terran predators (particularly
tigers and lions), the male "owns" the land that the females live on.  If a
new male takes over the territory, one of the first things he does is kill
all of the cubs (because they're not his).

For Aslan males, I assumed that the territorial drive was paramount.  Aslan 
males want to own and hold territory, especially desirable territory; if they 
do this, then mating opportunities (with the females that live on that
territory) and children that live to adulthood (under his protection) will 
result.  In pre-civilized times, an Aslan male who does not hold the territory 
that his female(s) live on will not have children who live to adulthood, even 
if he manages to mate.

Because of the 3:1 abundance of females to males, I see the females competing
for the male's attentions, and particularly for his commitment to helping
her defend and raise the children.  A relatively high sex drive (and possibly 
a tendancy towards jealousy) might well help in this.

In various Canon sources, it is mentioned that Aslan females who want to
marry frequently strive to do well in business, to demonstrate that they
will be good wives and managers of the family's business affairs.  In my
interpretation, this is one way in which civilized Aslan females compete
with one another for a male's attention.

Because of the 3:1 ratio, Aslan society promotes monagamy as a way of
keeping the birth rate under control.  As was pointed out earlier, one
male _could_ very well service an average of 3 females (and quite possibly
did in prehistoric times) , but this would make the population growth rate 
excessive once the mortality rate started to drop.  

>Among primates, females "cheating" on the dominate male behind his back
>occurs.  I don't know about other species.

I believe that it happens more often with some species than with others.
For the case of the Aslan, I assumed that it happened less often than
it does with Terran primates.

>Unclear.  Such seaonal variations occur so births occur when
>prey is plentifull.  However, it is not clear if this would
>have been dropped out by the ancients (to aid in breeding)

Could be, but I assumed not.  If I recall correctly, eivronmental cues
like the length of the day and the average temperaturs trigger changes in
hormone levels that cause increased agressiveness, competition, and
sexual desire in males, and trigger ovulation and sexual desire in females.
The Ancients could simply have used these environmental factors as an aid
in breeding the Vargr.

>would have been lost in evolution on Lair.

I doubt that there's been sufficient time since the time of the Ancients
for significant amounts of evolution to occur.

>>  Droyne: They're not telling, other than that it requires 6 droyne of the
>>    appropriate castes, and a ceremony that was prescribed by Grandfather.
>
>I don't think that the actual sex act requires all 6 droynes present.

Obviously not, since Chripers are uncasted (and therefore have only the
basic males and females) and can still reproduce.  Uncasted chirpers
born of chirper parents can still be casted, if coyns are re-introduced.

>Nor do I think the Grandfather prescribed the cermony where the
>ofspring were concieved, just the one where they were casted.

The Droyne item was tongue-in-cheek, but for what it's worth, I believe
that it was mentioned that each of the castes has a role in the
reproductive process.


"Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Vargr males should be rather insane on the subject (as Vargr males tend
>to be on every subject).  

Well, yes.

>They're always ready, but females are only in estrus a few times a year.  

There are many species that approximate this, and the males don't seem
to be particularly insane.  I assumed that, although the male would be
always ready, his sex drive varies, so that he's not so frustrated when
it's not mating season.

Of course, Vargr being the way that they are, some cultures probably use
drugs or other mechanisms to induce (or inhibit) mating seasons
periodically.  Others counsider that illegal and immoral.  And everything
in between.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:00:38 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Derek Wildstar wrote:

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
>>Starship troopers are sexy, pirates are sexier, fonts are the sexiest...
>
>KIBO!!!!   :-)
>
>I _knew_ this 'Kenji Schwartz' was a pseudonym (obviously a bogus
>name, but who)?

Humph.  Unlike "Wildstar", eh? ;)

>  I was having a devil of a time figuring out, but
>the weirdness of your ideas had a familiar ring.
>
>The fonts were a dead giveaway ... of course!
>
>
>[for those of you who have no idea who/what I'm talking about, it's
> supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and (hopefully) funny.  Those of you
> who know can tell me if I've succeeded.]

You've succeeded; I admit, I admit it, I'm that person...

So, um, who am I?

Continuing my streak of cluelessness,

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:50:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapon Ranges in FF&S

In mail you write:

> For example, here are ranges in km:
>
>           Short    Med     Long         Ext
> SSDS    300,000  600,000  1,200,000   2,400,000
> FF&S     30,000   60,000    120,000     240,000
>
> I like the FF&S system - I have trouble imagining engaging a target at 1.2
> million kilometers.

The mean distance between the Earth and the Moon is 384,000 km. So that
should give a useful "scaling factor".

And I find the FF&S ranges rather short. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

In mail you write:

>> For that matter, is there a way to get my PCs to talk TCP/IP and still
>> run Netware Lite on top of it? Or tell me how to get the same level of
>> file and device sharing.
>
> I'm no networking guru, but I *thought* that was possible with Win95...

I'll only use Win95 when forced.

>> While you are at it, tell me how to network my Aplle II clone and my
>> TRS-80s with the Mac and PCs. :-)
>
> EEEeeekk!!! <running away in horror>

I've got a collection of computer hardware that covers several TLs!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:17:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

In mail you write:

> Major Races:
>   Humans: We know about those humans, right?

You'd be surprised at the variety present in human cultures here on earth!

> This points to another pitfall when dealing with aliens in a SF game.  Most
> referees tend to play an alien race as one huge monoculture.  Humans are not
> like that - the society and behavior of Humans can vary radically from
> location to location.  Most Traveller referees recognize that a farm
> boy from Rouie will have a different outlook from a kid from the belts 
> of Glisten.  Unless there's some reason or mechanism that creates a unified 
> culture*, aliens can vary as much as humans do.

Again, most people have no idea *how* much humans vary.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:00:43 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Glenn Goffin wrote:

>> From: CardSharks@aol.com
>
>> What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
>> between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
>> we need to determine what each one's sound is...
>
>26 symbols?  That feels to me too close to the 26 letters familiar to
>every English speaker.  Shouldn't we have 30 or 22 or something?

Yep.  As I think Glenn Hoppe has since posted, the current issue of
"Bilanidin Bold" is the alphabet used by the Vilani to write/transcribe
Galanglic in -- not their own language.  The latter is under construction,
IUUC, and will have 20 letters, 5 or 6 tone diacritics, and 10 numeral
characters, plus maybe punctuation.  IIUC -- am I right, O Designer?  And
did we go with an upper case set as well?

Even this is contemplated to be a simplified, Galanglic-influenced
alphabet; the "real" Vilani script, we're thinking, works something like
Korean Han'gul: alphabetic elements combined into syllabic graphic blocks.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:40:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

In mail you write:

>
>>Also, I *think* (I may be wrong about this) that *any* sequence of
>>digits will turn up in *any* irrational number if you carry it out to
>>enough digits. It's a sort of "monkeys with typewriters" effect.
>
> Definitely not. For example, 0.121121112111121111121111112... is 
> irrational, but no digits other than 1 or 2 will appear.

It's "irrational", but it's also not an "algebraic"(?) number. That is,
there's no function or equation that'll produce it.

> Whether the circle-in-pi is "valid" or not is more a question of 
> philosphy...Yes, pi is built into mathematics, not into circles, but I always
> interpreted it as indicating that the creator of the universe built 
> mathematics
> at some meta-level...a strange idea from an extreme aethist such as Sagan,
> admittedly.

Well, as I said in another post, it'd be equally "possible" to build a
universe where 1+1=3.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:30:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

In mail you write:

>>Personally, I would go with saying that Aslan sex habits vary somewhat,
>>depending on social standing and with regional differences, but that
>>for the most part, females aren't in estrus and males are more concerned
>>with getting a piece of land than with getting a piece of ass.
>>
>>Of course, you may want to stand back during that one week of the Aslan
>>year...
>>
>>Human 1 : What's with our female Aslan engineer?
>>Human 2 : Don't ask.
>>Human 1 : She's been clawing at that stateroom door for 2 days now.
>>          What's in there?
>>Human 2 : That Aslan mercenary squad we picked up back on Regina.
>>          They've locked themselves in and keep screaming over
>>          the intercom for help.
>>Human 1 : This is going to be a looooong jump...
>
> I like this solution... interesting.  It seems that Aslan males are victims
> of a system that's the close cousin of a human male fantasy (c.f. Russ
> Meyer, esp. _Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!_) -- meek, earnest men being
> outnumbered and terrorized by swarms of agressive and sexually voracious
> women.  How ironic!
>
> PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the intercom? <G>

More to the point is a locked door going to stop an *engineer*?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:37:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Those who have not read Contact, by Carl Sagan should skip this 
> message...it
>>> won't ruin the plot, but it will spoil some of your enjoyment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The discussion of hiding a mesage in DNA reminds me of a schtick in 
> Contact.
>>>
>>> The heroine discovers that when you compute pi to a gazillion decimal 
> places,
>>> in base something or other, it turns into a string of ones and zeros, and
>>> contains a message.
>>>
>>> Neat notion, eh?
>>
>>Also thoroughly trashed on the net back when the book first came out.
>>You see, pi's value is a matter of *definition*. That is, regardless of
>>the characteristics of the universe, it will always have the same value
>>because its value derives from basic definitions of mathematics (not
>>even geometry!).
>
> Wasn't that the _point_?

Not really.  See below.

>>Among other things, it's related to e (base of the natural logarithms)
>>in several ways. The one I recall is:
>>
>>                i      -pi/2
>>               i   =  e
>>
>>That is: i to the ith power equals e to the negative one-half pi power.
>>
>>It's a neat idea, it's just not *possible*.
>
> When I read the book, I got the impression that Sagan was suggesting that
> the universe had been created specifically with this message contained in
> its ontological (if that's the right word) substance.

As I said, you can't *do* that. It'd be like creating a universe where
1+1=3. In fact, they are both impossible for the *same* reasons. You
can't build a consistent mathematics with either.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2060
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2061



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2057
Running jumps (Re: jump duration...)
Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059
Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)
Spinning Space Stations
Re: Astrophysics question
Re: TImecheck for DGP
Re: That three-letter word
Re: That three-letter word
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Spinning Space Stations
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:12:50 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking

:-)

Sayeth D.P. Summers:

> Well, my take is that keeping patrols going in systems with
> low traffic and little military importance just isn't seen
> as being worth the cost.  Obviously this has been debated
> based on reasons and assumptions that are too numerous
> to go into. ...

Which are, basically, the big Imp has lots 'o money, lots 'o manpower,
lots 'o warships, and thinks that even the citizens of the smallest
systems deserve protection, even if it is not coldly cost-effective.



> Also, not everyone believes that pirates "lurk".  There is
> a school that maintains that they are ships engaged in other
> business (legit and illegit) and only take targets
> that present themselves, much like how muggers in
> the USA work. ...

And another school that says that this is not quite possible (and it's a
false analogy to compare ships to muggers). It maintains that to do
"other business" would put the would-be blackbeard in a position where
he would never get a target of opportunity.

*  *  *

No school is "right" in any of these matters, because no school can
prove anything. These arguments are all based on assumptions. Basically,
there are good reasons (and not-so-good reasons) on both sides of the
argument, and the piracy thread has unearthed them. Choose what you
like, and go with it. :-)

You can even have it both ways, since there is this neat thing called
time. You can have a period in history where piracy has been completely
stomped out, and you can have a period in which it is rife. There are
historical precedents for both, IIRC. A strong, stable, benevolent
Imperium (or Regency) is good for the former, and a Shattered Imperium
(or Virus-infected Imperium, or emerging-from-the-Long-Night-Imperium)
is good for the latter.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:19:00 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2057

Eric Evans wrote:

> Chris Griffen said:
>
> >Just because the movie isn't "The English Patient" doesn't mean it's not
> >worth seeing.

I'm a film-lover, and I thought the English Patient stunk.

But, that's what I like about the movies--it's so subjective.  One man's crap
is another man's masterpiece, and what I think stinks, they give an Oscar to.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:24:14 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Running jumps (Re: jump duration...)

> (An interesting note on variable jump length is that it provides a
> reason
> not to do what Marc called "running" jumps. Since planets, stars,
> etc., are
> all moving,...

This brings up a question I have about the whole "running" jump idea.
Perhaps my "just out of the primordial ooze. geologically-speaking"
brain doesn't quite understand the issue completely, but "running"
relative to what?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:33:08 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

Warning: mild SPOILERS approaching...







          HOW TO SURVIVE YOUR STINT IN FEDERAL SERVICE

Twenty useful tips brought to you by Gen. Paul Verhoven, C in C...

20. The enemy can drop driveless asteroids on your cities from over 1000
light years distance - presumably at FTL speeds - without resorting to any
visible technology. Therefore, assume they're just stupid Bugs incapable of
rational thought;

19. When piloting the ship, don't strap yourself in. When the ship is hit,
you'll look cool flying through the air into the viewport;

18. Artillery? Only wussies need artillery.

17. Ignore those plasma bolts the mindless Bugs are firing at your ship -
they're just "random light";

16. Be ready to shoot your buddies at a moments notice; they'll thank you
for it;

15. Rest assured that, in the future, even the chicks are pumped on
testosterone;

14. Remember: football is actually vital combat training;

13. Make the escape pods really hard to get to. It adds dramatic tension
when you have to run an obstacle course to reach them;

12. Join the Psychic Friends Network and learn to mind-meld with a
mongoose. It just might come in handy;

11. Watch out for those asteroids - their gravity is such that they'll drag
your coffee out of its cup at a thousand clicks. (Must be made of
neutronium!);

10. Never miss an opportunity to show off your breasts;

9. Power armor? Who needs power armor? (The Feds decided to spend the money
on computer animated Bug simulations or something. Sorry...);

8. Before your mission starts, suck your brain out with a straw. You'll
save the Bugs the trouble, and you'll be able to sit back and enjoy the
ride; 

7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;

6. Let the new recruit pilot the ship out of the space dock, even though
it's her first time at the controls. Computer guidance is for wussies.
(Besides, that's the way it's done at Star Fleet, so it must be right);

5. Never do anything original. Only do things heroes of sci-fi action
movies have done before;

4. Air support? Only wussies need air support;

3. Leave your copy of Heinlein's book at home. It won't help you here;

2. Always fly your ships in very tight battle formation, no more than 20m
apart. It looks cool and you'll get lots of chances to test your piloting
skills;

1. Look cute in a uniform.

Just follow these simple instructions and you'll survive your term in
Federal Service. Then you'll qualify to be a Citizen. You'll have the right
to vote, and a license to have children! Yes, it's a glorious world here in
the future, where all the decisions - and all the babies - are made
exclusively by steroid-pumped multiple amputees suffering from Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder and likely to go postal at the sight of
cockroaches!

C'mon everybody, sing the Anthem...."Wooo-hooo!"

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:00:17 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote

> Loren Wiseman wrote:
> >The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for debate.
> 
> This is a very good point.  As a matter of fact, I'll get up on a soapbox
> and generalize it:  Just because Humans do something one particular way
> doesn't mean that Traveller aliens  will do the same thing that same way. 
> >It is a major drive in Humans, but there is no reason why Aslan should be
> >subject to the same drives

True but there does need to be some way to ensure that the next
generation of Aslan comes from somewhere.  "If your parents did not have
children you probably won't either."
> 
> Right.  And when working things out, you generally have to start from an
> assumption (in my case "Aslan females have a sex drive")

_Why_ did you make the assumption that all Aslan females have a sex
drive ?

It is a reasonable assumption but it would be just as easy to assume
that the female Aslan sex drive only kicks in when they pick up
phermones from an Aslan male they are pair bonded to.  Thus all the
unatttached females would not be thinking about sex at all.  This would
leave them more time to get work done.  Therefore the extra females
would add more to the productivity of the group.  This might help to
explain why there are more Aslan females than males in the first place.

For there to be more Aslan females than males this has to be (or at
least have been) evolutionarily adventageous at some point.  Perhaps
proto aslan with a more equal number of males experienced too much
infighting and were inefficient.  Perhaps the female Aslan died off at
higher rates so more needed to be born in the first place.  For example
the female Aslan birth canal might be be insufficiently evolved to cope
with the larger brain (and therefore head size) that has developed. 
Therefore the Aslan might have had an exceedingly high rate of mortality
during childbirth.

It is also possible to believe that Aslan females do not have much, or
any, sex drive at all and that they engage in sex only when they are
physically forced or when otherwise coerced to do so.

>, use the known facts
> about the race (such as the 3:1 female-to-male ratio and what we know
> about Aslan society and naming), and proceed to a solution that makes some
> sort of sense.  This applies to just about everything you'd want to know about
> an alien race - this is the way that "classic" hard SF works.

Just because _an_ explanation makes sense does not mean that there are
not other plausible explanations.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:40:14 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059

Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:08:58 -0800, Scott Ellsworth
<Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>Well, remember that is not clear that vargr are any more close
>>related to canines than we are to primates.  The fact that
>>they weren't as "highly evolved" as humans when the ancients
>>came along may have been more than made up for by the ancients
>>genetic manipulation.  Primates are just as pack orientated
>>as canines are and they have similar dominate male and female
>>hierarchies.

>Given the other things that the Ancients did, I suspect a DM can rule
>virtually anything as reasonable.

Well, they are aliens so you can justify almost anything.  OTOH,
I just wanted to point out that a lot of these things don't
necessarily follow from how the Vargr were set up (and I would
suggest that just dumping things on them because they seem
cute is the sort of common mistake that makes aliens seem
hokey).  I also wanted to point out they are not "dogs" anymore
than we are "chimps".

>  I suspect that giving up the inherent
>chaos of Vargr society, or the rapidly changing charisma would be a bad idea.

Well, these are fundamental concepts the race was built around...

>I will likely use the idea that a good "first crack" assessment of Vargr or
>Aslan behavior would be the terrestrial wolf and tiger, as both of those
>are fairly near the top of the food chain in their environments.  On the
>other hand, I also use chimp behavior as a good first assessment for human
>behavior on the part of other races.
>
>The model is not great, but it explains enough that someone foolish enough
>to use it for anything more than a rough guess will suffer what they deserve.

I think that it is a bit short even for rough guesses.  I would
go a step further or not use it at all.

I would say that one should look at how humans have come from chimp
behavior and make Aslan and Vargr an equal distance from canines
or the species that Aslan evolved from.  You need to
look at he change as much as where you are starting from.
For example, just saying humans will act like chimps will be
as wrong as it is right.  All these species
have travelled a long journey since their animal ancestors

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:04:59 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)

Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:05:44 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Well, I'm not sure why everyone knows you have such a
>>highly equiped equiped computer.  The fact is that

>  No, but if the 3I/IN/INI want to know, they have a good chance
>of finding out, even before it's installed. End user certificates
>would be a simple way to go.

Well, this gets back to assumptions about how extensive
the documentation on each ship is, whether it get
distributed so it is at each system when it gets there,
whether it includes thing like upgrades, etc.  I
am one of those who don't feel that simply assuming,
given the slow communications, that all sites will
have any records they might want is a mistake.

>>the Rebellion sourcebook has a model of ships designed
>>to hide the fact that it not only has a bigger computer,
>>but also more weaponry and a bigger jump and maneuver
>>rating than it is suppose to have.

>  I assume you're referring to the Type TJ. If so, keep in mind
>that this is really a subsidized vessel carrying out business
>for the Imperial Household.

Yeah, but just uping a computer is only a fraction of
what those ships do.

>>merchants and it only take one ruthless person to
>>decide to get a couple of friends to take one out
>>so he can attack ships without fear of retaliation.

>  On the wolf-pack thing - it only takes one ruthless SOB
>to collect the reward money on all those would-be pirates
>- - or one plant, leak, or chance warship encounter etc.

Yeah, this is classic of all crimes that involve cooperation.
What happens is that it does happen enough to catch the
criminal sometimes, but not enough to make the crime
seem impractical to all who might plan it.

>>Um, no.  If you read the description this are tramp traders
>>operating on the leavings of larger ships.  In fact,
>>the rebellion source book lists a trader that is considerably
>>bigger and is still just a frontier transport operating

>  The type TI? Sure, but where do your pirates get the cash for a
>_2000_ Dt ship?

Yeah, but if even a 2000 ton ship can be described as ships that
are marginal enough that they are intended to operate off of the
main trade routes, there are certainly ships that can worry
a measly 200 ton system defense boat.  (or even the bigger
400 ton one).

>  The issue then becomes what are anti-piracy/internal security ships
>capable of, and the supply of 300 and 400 Dt ships for that purpose
>would indicate that by canon, the vast majority of potential pirates
>are inferior to those vessels.

Well, I would say the 400 ton SDB (which costs 3/4 what the
Kuninuir that Hans was using and I felt was appropriate)
is the bare minimum.  It is as small, or smaller, than
almost all merchant vessels and what it gains in
being a military ship is lost in the fact that it
has to be clearly superior to the biggest ship the
pirate use (in a situation where the pirate chooses the
tatical sitation).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:26:46 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@Alaska.NET>
Subject: Re: Jump drive thoughts (LONGISH)

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote
 
> At 01:48 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:

> >a) You can't survive jumping at under 10 diamters (ship destroyed).
> >b) Under 100 diamters the ship will almost always misjump.
> >c) After 100 diameters you have a standard jump (+/- 1 day) with a small
> >chance of misjump.
> 
> Well, you *can* jump from inside 10 diameters, it's just not very smart.

In MT the rules give a big penalty for jumping out within 10 diameters
but do not increase this penalty for lesser distances.  So if you are
going to jump within 10 diameters [Formidable, Engineer, Navigators Edu
(hazardous, fateful)] you might as well jump out at 1 diameter, or 0.1
diameter, or from within the high port.... It won't be any more
dangerous.

> 
> >And now the inspiration.  A simple question, posed by a navigator in a
> >dream. What happens at 1000 diameters?
> >
> >Thrusters are affected by gravity, so are  jump-drives?  What if 100
> >diameters was just the 'reasonably safe' limit?  What if you moved out far
> >enough the +/- 1 day went away?  What if that distance was 1000 diameters?
>  >What if at that distance the error went from +/- 10% to +/-1%?
> >
> >The time required to travel to 1000 diameters far outweighs the benifits
> >for traders.    The only people this would benifit would be military
> >operations involving large numbers of ships.  Any comments?
> 
> Well, the safe jump distance from a Size A world is about .01 AU.  A rough
> estimate of 1000 diameters is therefore .1 AU.  According to the MT
> Referee's Companion (pg 21) it would only take about 21 hours to get out
> that far using 1G acceleration.  I could see where most if not all
> merchants would accept the additional two days in N-space over the
> randomness of J-space.
> 
> It also gives those pesky pirates more room to work in....  :)

Yes but the ship would still be within 1,000 diameters of the star
(unless the planet in question was in an outer orbit) therefore no
benefit would accrue.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:09:50 GMT0
From: terry.williams@luton.ac.uk
Subject: Spinning Space Stations

Hi,
	I wuz wondering if someone could let me know what the appropriate
equations governing centripetal force are?

I've designed a low tech space station that requires spin to create gravity,
the diameter is 800metres or so and I want 1 gravity at the furthest point from
the hub. Given these conditions what is the angular velocity?

Mostly I need to know if its slow enough not to induce severe nausea.

Thanks for the help.

Terry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:06:53 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Astrophysics question

Leonard asks:

>I'm working on an evil idea, but I need to know how long it takes for a
>neutron star to get rid of the gas nebula. As I understand it, at that
>point it shouldn't be making "pulsar noises" that are noticeable at any
>great distance, right?
>Also, what would it look like once you get close enough to image it,
>and what sort of rotation rate would be expected? 
>Other details like mag field stregth at various distances would be good
>too.

A few factoids culled from Henbest & Couper's _A Guide to the Galaxy_:

A pulsar's magnetic field is about a million-million times as strong as
Earth's. The field dies out after about 10 million years. Young pulsars
rotate at rates up to 1000 times per second, but their magnetic fields
eventually slow them down. There are probably about 500,000 pulsars in the
Galaxy, and about 1000 'dead' pulsars (undetectable from Earth).

Vague answers, but that's all I know :)

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:22:09 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TImecheck for DGP

>I've searched this year's worth of TMLs and have not found anything to
>indicate that DGP is doing _anything_, or they have any prospect of doing
>_anything_. Not a peep about any new sci-fi campaign, and, as of yet, no
>sign of any release.

(To: Jo Grant)
I've been part of a group of kibbitzers for DGPs new RPG for some time but
haven't had the time to followup lately. As far as I could see Roger had it
pretty well thought out but I've only seen abstracts of the system and am
also bound to shut my mouth on specifics. Maybe this isn't quite enough to
make you eat your words but perhaps you should start preparing your
tastebuds for some verbal diet in the future ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:30:21 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

David P. Summers wrote:

[snip]
>
>Well, remember that is not clear that vargr are any more close
>related to canines than we are to primates.  The fact that
>they weren't as "highly evolved" as humans when the ancients
>came along may have been more than made up for by the ancients
>genetic manipulation.  Primates are just as pack orientated
>as canines are and they have similar dominate male and female
>hierarchies.

	We're pretty darn close to primates.  I remember reading in
_Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors_ (St. Carl doing human evolution) this long
list of behavious that humans and chimps shared in common...  in fact,
Sagan seemed to imply (in stating that the only real difference was that
chimps don't have abstract codes of behavioural norms) that lawyers were
the driving force behind human evolution taking the course it has :).

	Ok.  So it was a real stretch.  So sue me :).

	But seriously, there are some pretty chimp-like human societies out
there, as Carl pointed out; motorcycle gangs spring to mind.  I could see
Vargr "packs".  OTOH, your point about genetic manipulation by Grandfather
could very well hold.  In fact, it makes a lot of sense.  I don't think
I'll decide one way or the other without reference to canon.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:49:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
> >>Starship troopers are sexy, pirates are sexier, fonts are the sexiest...
> >
> Derek Wildstar wrote:
> >KIBO!!!!   :-)
> 
> So, um, who am I?

I'm referring to James "Kibo" Perry (kibo@world.std.com), famous internet
personality from 'way back and generally all-around weird person.  His posts
to newsgroups like alt.fan.mike-jittlov (and others, including presumably
alt.fan.kibo) are frequently off-the-wall, and often funny.

I believe he's a font designer in his day job.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:28:28 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> For that matter, is there a way to get my PCs to talk TCP/IP and still
> >> run Netware Lite on top of it? Or tell me how to get the same level of
> >> file and device sharing.
> >
> > I'm no networking guru, but I *thought* that was possible with Win95...
>
> I'll only use Win95 when forced.
>

Actually, Win95 is AmigaOS for PCs (as a windows using friend of mine said in
frustration over the changes from 3.11 to 95), and I like it!

> >> While you are at it, tell me how to network my Aplle II clone and my
> >> TRS-80s with the Mac and PCs. :-)
> >
> > EEEeeekk!!! <running away in horror>
>
> I've got a collection of computer hardware that covers several TLs!
>

Mine goes from CPM (with 10.5" drives) to this laptop I'm typing on, and
includes 2 macs (classic & an upgraded 512), 2 apple ][ class machines, an
apple //gs, an amiga 500, an accellerated amiga 2000, an 8088 laptop, an
80286 laptop, a 133 pentium laptop, a 486dx4 tower, a palm pilot, a
TRS80-100, a sega game system, and an atari 2600.  My basement is a museum,
also called the home of donated computers :-)

What tech levels does the basement span?

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Chris Olson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:52:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Spinning Space Stations

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 terry.williams@luton.ac.uk wrote:

> Hi,
> =09I wuz wondering if someone could let me know what the appropriate
> equations governing centripetal force are?
>=20
> I've designed a low tech space station that requires spin to create gravi=
ty,
> the diameter is 800metres or so and I want 1 gravity at the furthest poin=
t
> from the hub. Given these conditions what is the angular velocity?
>=20
> Mostly I need to know if its slow enough not to induce severe nausea.
>=20
> Thanks for the help.
>=20
> Terry
>=20

I just looked thks up in my Physics Book. I hope I=B4ll bore no one with=20
it now, so only read on, if you=B4re really interested.
The Formula for the zentrifugal force is

 F =3D m * v^2 / r =3D m * omega^2 * r,

so the acceleration has to be

 a =3D v^2 / r =3D omega^2 * r =3D g =3D 9.81 m/s^2,=20

omega being the angular velocity in radians.
Given the radius of 800 m, we=B4ll get:

 omega =3D sqrt(g / r) =3D sqrt(9,81 m/s^2 / 800 m) =3D 0,1107 s^-1
     v =3D sqrt(g * r) =3D 88,6 m/s

This would be a time for one turn of T =3D 2 * pi / omega =3D 56,7 s.
i.e. this station will have to turn circa once a minute around itself to=20
have an artificial gravity of 1 g. Make it bigger, and it needs not to=20
turn as fast. I hope, I did no mistakes in this calculation.
Now we see, why it is better to dock on the axis ...

Additional Comments: Walking on such a station can become quite=20
interesting, as there exist coriolis effects because of the spin. i.e.=20
anything falling from inside to outside of the station, like a drink=20
poured into a glass will be diverted to trailing. anything that goes up=20
will be forced spinward. And if you=B4re running around the ring, you=B4ll=
=20
get either more weight or less as you are changing your angular velocity.
They never induced that on Babylon 5.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:58:17 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Glenn Goffin wrote:
> 
> >> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> >
> >> What letters are there in the Vilani alphabet and what are the equivalents
> >> between those sounds and the Bilanidin symbols. Since there are 26 symbols,
> >> we need to determine what each one's sound is...
> >
> >26 symbols?  That feels to me too close to the 26 letters familiar to
> >every English speaker.  Shouldn't we have 30 or 22 or something?
> 
> Yep.  As I think Glenn Hoppe has since posted, the current issue of
> "Bilanidin Bold" is the alphabet used by the Vilani to write/transcribe
> Galanglic in -- not their own language.  The latter is under construction,
> IUUC, and will have 20 letters, 5 or 6 tone diacritics, and 10 numeral
> characters, plus maybe punctuation.  IIUC -- am I right, O Designer?  And
> did we go with an upper case set as well?

Yup. I'm not doing an upper case set. The Roman & Cyrillic alphabets are
rare in that they have upper and lower cases. I see no need for two
cases.

I'd rather devote that energy to creating different typeface "styles". I
envision an even "bolder" display face, a script-like "hand drawn"
style...

> Even this is contemplated to be a simplified, Galanglic-influenced
> alphabet; the "real" Vilani script, we're thinking, works something like
> Korean Han'gul: alphabetic elements combined into syllabic graphic blocks.

That's the way I envisioned it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:15:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta becomes trav-tech

Sorry about that...that was supposed to go private...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:58:02 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

David P. Summers wrote:
> >I know you argue that just because they have the capability, they will not
> >choose to use it, but given the political pressure, it seems like the
> >Imperium would be war torn if it did not.)
> 
> I find this highly debatable.   The Imperium is not going
> to be torn by civil war because it didn't divert 1% of
> it's miltary budget to stopping one kind of crime any
> more than the large US cities are torn by civil strife
> because the US doesn't take 1% of the US military and
> use them to wipe out transit crime.

A have a comment from the peanut gallery.

I've noticed a tendency towards faulty analogy. Piracy cannot be
compared to street crime, transit crime, or mugging. I assume the
average Imperial citizen's purchasing power is the same order of
magnitude as the average citizen in today's industrialized countries.
(This can be inferred from the chargen charts)

The average merchant vessel is valued in the tens of *Mega*Credits.
That's a bucketload of cash for most citizens. If even _one_ of these
things is stolen, it *is* a big deal. It's a major bank heist. The local
authorities (representing the Imperium) *will* take notice. It's not a
mugging, or a transit crime.

If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
Unlike a regular mugging, these aren't liquid assets like cash or credit
cards. This is a lot of information, raw material, finished goods,
chemicals, live animals... unless the pirate knows *before hand* (how?)
what the cargo is, he could be in possession of 20 tons of Antarean
Mountain Groats.

And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.

So again, I reach the conlusion that piracy is possible to occur once in
a while (it's too profitable not to), but Imperial Authorities will be
vigilant. There is too much risk for lone individuals, so the successful
pirate will have a well laid out plan, information covertly supplied,
and most importantly, the backing of a government or large corporation.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2061
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2062



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

OPERATION: RISEK [BR Scenario]
Evading laser fire
Re: Astrophysics question
re:CT product query
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2060
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058
(back to: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: That three-letter word

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:01:04 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: OPERATION: RISEK [BR Scenario]

OPERATION: RISEK  -- A Scenario for BATTLE RIDER

In the year 1104 imperial, tensions were running high between the Third
Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate in the region near Deneb.  Both 
governments were busily readying their forces in case war were to 
break out.  To this end, a series of naval exercises were performed
by the Imperial and regional navies in preparation for conflict.

One such exercise was performed in the Risek system.  About the size
of the moon Titan in the Sol system, Risek is home to only about forty
thousand inhabitants, a small but capable refitting yard, and a naval
base.  Risek was chosen as a site for this exercise for a number of
reasons, not least of which was its proximity to the IN Fleet Tactics
School (Deneb) then located in the Macene Belt.

Red Fleet was ordered to execute a jump from the marshaling point in
the Porozlo system and to conduct a simulated invasion of Risek.  In
the meantime, Blue Fleet had left Macene and taken up positions in the
Risek system to repel the attack.  The initial scenario called for Red
Fleet to secure the system, but did not include landing operations.

- ----

VICTORY:  The game concludes after all Red ships have exited from jump
          and one side has gained complete control of the board (all 
          enemy ships destroyed, disabled, or escaped).

SET-UP:   This scenario covers the entire area within 100 diameters of
          Risek.  This will require six BRILLIANT LANCES hex sheets, 
          if available.  They should be laid out in a square, so that
          the board is about 36 hexes wide and 33 across. 
          
          |---|---|---|  A planet counter is placed as near to the 
          |   |   |   |  center of the board as possible; this is
          |   |   |   |  Risek.  Any ship in the same hex as Risek
          |---|-*-|---|  or adjacent to it is within the ten diameter
          |   |   |   |  limit; any ship within 16 hexes of Risek is
          |   |   |   |  within the one hundred diameter limit.
          |---|---|---|
          
Red Fleet has 750 points to spend as specified in the Advanced Scenario
generation section of the rules.  All Red Fleet ships must be jump-3 at
least, or be a battle rider carried by a tender with a jump-3+ drive.  

All Red Fleet ships (or tenders carrying battle riders) must plot a jump
exit point.  Each ship selects a hex sixteen or more hexes from Risek;
more than one ship may select the same hex.  Each ship selects a initial
vector not greater than its' maneuver drive value, in any direction.
Each ship also selects a turn on which the "jump exit window" opens.  
Roll 4D6-4 for each ship.  This is the actual turn after the window is
open that the ship appears in the selected hex on the map.  At least one
"jump exit window" must be plotted to open on the first turn.

Red Fleet ships which exit jump and find each other in the same hex with
the same vector may form task forces subject to the usual restrictions.
Ships exit jump at the beginning of the Initiative Phase.  Riders may be
launched in the same Initiative Phase as jump exit occurs.

Blue Fleet has 375 points to spend.  Blue Fleet ships do not need jump
drives.  The Blue player may place ships anywhere on the board once Red
Fleet has plotted the jump exit points for all vessels.  Red should not
reveal the jump exit point(s) plotted for ships in Red Fleet until the
turn on which they exit jump.

VARIANT ONE

The jump exit rules are designed to give a ten hour jump exit window
for the invading ships, as currently proposed.   The chances are good 
that ships will exit during the middle five hours of that window.  

This can be altered to test alternative rules.  For a tighter exit
window of five hours, use 2D-2 instead of 4D-4.  You can also try the
civilian jump exit window of twenty hours by using 2x(4D-4).

It's very likely that point values for each side will have to be 
adjusted depending on which version of this variant you use.

VARIANT TWO

Blue Fleet may, at its discretion, purchase a small deep-site meson gun
for use as a planetary defense weapon.  It has the following approximate
statistics:

M(-2)6:10-7-4-2           -4
 --                     TL12
 --                    FC:-4
 --                      --
A:16 P:8 J:16 Msk        --
AV:30 AuxB               --
MS:14                    185

The meson gun is buried permanently two kilometers underground on Risek.
It gets a DiffMod of +4 applied to sensor tasks against it (+2 for being
landed, and +2 for being buried).  Alternatively, Blue Fleet might be 
allowed to buy a smaller meson gun of size -3 at half the point cost but
with half the short range.  [Note that both alternatives are accurately
designed.]  It must also be suppressed for Red Fleet to declare victory.
All reasonable rules apply (for instance, Powering Down).

COMMENTARY

This scenario is designed to test the feasibility of a direct attack
after jump exit by an invading fleet.  Risek's small size (size-3)
allows the entire region inside the 100-diameter boundary to fit in
a reasonable amount of space.

If Variant Two is in use, the Blue player isn't required to buy the 
weapon -- it might be useful to use a decoy task force to force Red
Fleet to worry about whether or not a deep-site is really there.

I've given the invading fleet a 2:1 point advantage over the defense.
This should be adjusted as necessary as players discover the optimal 
strategies for this scenario.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:55:55 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Evading laser fire

One of the great undersolved problems of Traveller space combat is 
how well a starship can evade; that is, what volume of space it can 
cover in the time between observation by the firing ship and the 
arrival of a laser pulse.  IMHO, obviously.

Let us assume a ship with maximum acceleration A, and thrusters 
capable of delivering either a lateral acceleration a or an angular 
acceleration C.  The frame of reference is w.r.t. the ship's vector 
at the moment of detection, so zero acceleration represents the ship 
remaining where it is.  The assumption is that a relatively dumb fire 
control computer can hit a constant-v target.  We will also assume 
non-relativistic ship velocities.

The easy problem to solve (read: problem with an 
analytical solution) is for the ship under forward and lateral 
acceleration.  Max. distance travelled under forward acceleration A 
is 1/2 At^2, where t = 2 * lag-time + reaction time, lag-time is the
distance to target in light-seconds and reaction time is the time to
compute firing solution, train and fire.  Reaction time is probably 
negligible if you continually refine your firing solution based on 
constant sensor readings, so we'll assume t = 2 * lag-time.  Max 
distance under lateral acceleration is 1/2 at^2.  Since the two 
thrusts are independent, the locus of possible ship positions is a 
cylinder, length 1/2 At^2, radius 1/2 at^2.  The ship is contained in 
a volume pi r^2 l = 1/8 pi A a^2 t^6.  A random cross-section through 
this will have an area of roughly 1/16 pi (a + A) a t^4 

Assuming the laser beam to be negligibly wide itself, it can be
thought of as having an effective beam cross-section of the target
ship's profile i.e. if the thin beam intersects the ship, the laser
hits.  Since the laser beam moves at c, it is much faster than the
ship and it is assumed to pass through the volume of possible ship
positions instantaneously. Assuming a spherical ship, diameter d,
cross-section area is pi d^2.  Thus, chance of hitting the ship is:

pi d^2 / 1/16 pi (a + A) a t^4

= 16 d^2 / a (a + A) t^4

This is based on the ship having an equal chance of being in any 
region of the cylinder.  Bearing in mind that starship captains will 
wish to "push the envelope" a bit (use as much acceleration as 
possible) but have more chance of being towards the interior of the 
cylinder if they choose accelerations at random, this is a fair 
assumption.

Now, consider how starship evasion has to work.  Let us assume that 
the distance between the ships is known, to reasonable accuracy, by 
both sides.  The target ship therefore knows the lag time, but 
doesn't know when the enemy ship will fire.  Its maneuver will 
therefore be somewhat less efficient, since each evasion pattern can 
take it back into the volume of the previous one, where a shot could 
well be fired.  Let's say that the effective time of maneuver is 
equal to half the lag time, or the range in light seconds.

p(hit) = 16 d^2 / a (a + A) t^4 where t = range in light seconds

= 4 for a 10m sphere at 1g lateral, 4g forward, 1 ls distant.

p > 1 implies a certain hit, and p>>1 implies it's possible to pick 
hit locations.  This, however, assumes a 100% accurate sensor fix and 
a 100% accurate laser system.  I'd guess laser accuracy decays as 
1/r^2 (laser can be aimed to a certain angular precision, i.e. beam 
fired within a very small solid angle, possible area in which beam is 
found is proportional to r^2) but I don't have good intuition as to 
the constant of proportionality -- how well *can* you point a laser?
Equally, how accurate a fix can sensors get as a function of 
distance?

Can some kind and/or knowledgeable soul give me some ideas on these 
numbers?  (And if you can, will you?  Please?)

The practical upshot of all of this is that a ship unmissable at 1 ls 
can be very hard to hit at 2 ls and virtually impossible at 4 ls.  
Score one for 0.1 ls BL/BR hexes...

The *hard* problem to solve, that of the ship turning and using its 
main drive to alter course, can't be solved so neatly.  (A solution 
involves Fresnel integrals, about which I have no data.)  I think the 
solution has the same dimensions as above (it ought to!) but I don't 
know the constants involved.  Small ships (fighter-sized) can have 
enormous angular accelerations (like 10+ rad/s^2) when G-compensated, 
so it might be important for the survivability of fighters in 
combat.

My guess is volume swept = K A^3 C^2 t^4 where K is a constant, C the 
angular acceleration and A the (forward) linear acceleration.  Which 
makes an SDB *way* harder to hit than a merchant ship. (ObPiracy.)

Comments, suggestions, contributions greatly appreciated...

Nick




Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:59:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcus Teter <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Astrophysics question

Hi Leonard,
> 
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:58 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Astrophysics question
> 
> I'm working on an evil idea, but I need to know how long it takes for a
> neutron star to get rid of the gas nebula. As I understand it, at that
> point it shouldn't be making "pulsar noises" that are noticeable at any
> great distance, right?
> 
Wrong.  The pulsar noises come from the rotating magnetic field.  Most of
the radiation associated with the nebula is secondary radiation (usually
sycrotron) driven by the rotation of the fields inside.  This sycrotron
does fall off as the nebula's density decreases.  

> Also, what would it look like once you get close enough to image it,
> and what sort of rotation rate would be expected? 

From a few seconds to a few milliseconds.  


> 
> Other details like mag field stregth at various distances would be good
> too.
> 

The magnetic fields of neutron stars vary from 10^11 Gauss to 10^13 Gauss.
There has been reported a field strength of 10^14 Gauss reported in the
literature, but the confidence level is low.  The field will fall off at
1/r^2.  Picture a huge version of the field from a bar magnet.

The radius of neutron stars could be from 5 to 15 km depending upon the
characteristics of matter at high densities ( >10^14 g/cc ).

The spin down rate would eventually give you the conditions that you
orignialy suggested, the field no longer rotating, but the time required
to bring this rate down has been esitmated to be over 10^10 years.

> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------

If you need more info, let me know.  I'm currently working on thermol
evolution of neutron stars.

Marcus A. Teter
uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu
marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:09:46 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:CT product query

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:

>God, it must be >10 years since I ran that...the only memory I have is of
>an ex-Imperial Marine in BD stomping on lab rats...
 
and Dom wrote
>My only memory (say 9 years old) is my character sitting at one of the
>interlinking sections with two shots left in his magnum revolver while the
>last of the creatures lurked below, killing the last of my companions!

it's definitely a better adventure if you run it with a very-lightly-armed
party - battle dress kind of takes all the fun out of it when all the opposition
has are teeth.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:01:05 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

At 04:33 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Dave Summers wrote:
>Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:06:48 -0800, Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>If you are having fun with it, then by all means go ahead and continue - I
>>certainly am not the list cop
>
>They why are you jumping into an exchange between Hans and
>me and lecturing me on how to post?

Two reasons: 1) this is a public exchange - if you had wanted it to be an
exchange only between Hans and yourself, then you would have done it
privately, and 2) your posts are getting a definite martyr air, which I
attempt to stamp out whenever and wherever I find it in public forums.  It
damages rational argument.

Allow me to quote a line which I think demonstrates what I am perceiving as
victim status:

>If Hans has simply not jumped in with
>new messages and reraising old points this would have stopped
>some time back.

Perhaps you meant something other than "I am only replying because he did,"
but that is the way it sounded to me.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:00:29 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059

At 11:40 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Dave Summers wrote:
>Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:08:58 -0800, Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>I will likely use the idea that a good "first crack" assessment of Vargr or
>>Aslan behavior would be the terrestrial wolf and tiger, as both of those
>>are fairly near the top of the food chain in their environments.  On the
>>other hand, I also use chimp behavior as a good first assessment for human
>>behavior on the part of other races.
>>
>>The model is not great, but it explains enough that someone foolish enough
>>to use it for anything more than a rough guess will suffer what they
deserve.
>
>I think that it is a bit short even for rough guesses.  I would
>go a step further or not use it at all.
>
>I would say that one should look at how humans have come from chimp
>behavior and make Aslan and Vargr an equal distance from canines
>or the species that Aslan evolved from.  You need to
>look at he change as much as where you are starting from.
>For example, just saying humans will act like chimps will be
>as wrong as it is right.  All these species
>have travelled a long journey since their animal ancestors

Most people have lousy models of anyone they do not live near.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the typical human who did not have a large
Vargr population on their home world had even the faintest idea how their
society ran.  Using the typical wolf pack as the model for the average
person's perception of Vargr behavior seems quite reasonable.

At the very least, present day average people have virtually no
understanding of other cultures.  Every exchange student I have talked with
seemed to indicate this from personal experience, and these were people who
were well prepped, and going to places with the same species.  I
experienced it going to Scotland, and there are few cultures on Earth
outside the US closer to Irvine than the UK.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:13:59 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2060

>[0.12112111211112] is "irrational", but it's also not an "algebraic"(?) number. That is,

>there's no function or equation that'll produce it.

In that sense, Pi is also no algebraic - you can only define it with infinite
series or other numbers (like e) that can only be defined with infinite 
series.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:06:26 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

[snip]

> I've noticed a tendency towards faulty analogy. Piracy cannot be
> compared to street crime, transit crime, or mugging. I assume the
> average Imperial citizen's purchasing power is the same order of
> magnitude as the average citizen in today's industrialized countries.
> (This can be inferred from the chargen charts)
>
> The average merchant vessel is valued in the tens of *Mega*Credits.
> That's a bucketload of cash for most citizens. If even _one_ of these
> things is stolen, it *is* a big deal. It's a major bank heist. The local
> authorities (representing the Imperium) *will* take notice. It's not a
> mugging, or a transit crime.

Actually, if you work the scale from the bottom (the individual citizen) to the
top (megacorporations with annual budgets greater than most world's GWP), and
put in in the perspective of the Imperium (Impersonal bureacracy spanning
thousands of worlds, etc...), the piracy of a 1,000- dTon ship looks more like a
carjacking.  It's enough to get the local 'police' (Planetary or Cluster forces)
involved, and if it happens enough, to bring in the 'state' cops (i.e. SubSector
fleet attention), but Imperial Forces?  Not likely, if it is happening at a
Class D or E world (which by definition would have very little clout, or it
would have a better starport, no?)

As a caveat, however, once you start hitting the 1,000+ dTon ships (and some
selected smaller ships...), you are hitting megacorp ships...they are mobile
patches of political clout that can call in the big guns.  You don't want to
annoy someone who has lunch with the Arch Duke!  :)  That is, of course,
assuming they do not decide to resolve the issue without Imperial intervention!
8D

> If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
> disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
> assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
> Unlike a regular mugging, these aren't liquid assets like cash or credit
> cards. This is a lot of information, raw material, finished goods,
> chemicals, live animals... unless the pirate knows *before hand* (how?)
> what the cargo is, he could be in possession of 20 tons of Antarean
> Mountain Groats.

If you assign any kind of intelligence to a pirate, they will either know
roughly what you are carrying, or you had the bad luck to be a target of
opportunity.  Brokers and Traders advertise what they have, it's the only way to
make cargo move (unless, of course, it is the 'small package' trade, but that
has it's own risks, including cargo-jacking).  Ships advertise their
destinations and approximate schedules, it's the only way to get passengers.
Manifests are recorded at the starport.  It's all information that is available,
if you have the capability to access it.

> And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
> information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
> Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
> bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.

Security devised by men, will be broken by men.  Records can be forged.
Electronic tags can be altered.  Shipments can be broken up and repackaged in
new containers.  Admittably, new and intriguing security devices can and will be
introduced, but they are exceptions, not the rule.

> So again, I reach the conlusion that piracy is possible to occur once in
> a while (it's too profitable not to), but Imperial Authorities will be
> vigilant. There is too much risk for lone individuals, so the successful
> pirate will have a well laid out plan, information covertly supplied,
> and most importantly, the backing of a government or large corporation.

The Imperial Authorities have far too much to do, to be concerned with
_unorganized_ piracy, especially small ship conflicts.  As with most crime, you
concentrate on the major offenders, and hope that the patrol cops catch the
rest.  Once a pattern has been established, I'm sure that there are specific
units or investigation teams that may form to track down an individual - but
that individual will have to make quite the splash before that happens!

Actually, in keeping with the theme of the thread (making piracy possible for
the GM) - how does the idea of a Piracy Investigative Arm sound?  These are the
sophonts who reconstruct the event, trace the ships and cargos taken, and
eventually identify the perp?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:42:04 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[snip]
>> This points to another pitfall when dealing with aliens in a SF game.  Most
>> referees tend to play an alien race as one huge monoculture.  Humans are not
>> like that - the society and behavior of Humans can vary radically from
>> location to location.  Most Traveller referees recognize that a farm
>> boy from Rouie will have a different outlook from a kid from the belts
>> of Glisten.  Unless there's some reason or mechanism that creates a unified
>> culture*, aliens can vary as much as humans do.
>
>Again, most people have no idea *how* much humans vary.

"Hey!  Hey, you girls!  Stop that!  Stop that right now!  That's -- that's
unnatural!"

 -- the mad scientist in _Frankenhooker_

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:01:36 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

At 02:33 AM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;

Glenn, with your kind permission, I'm stealing this for a .sig...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:08:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058

At 9:35 PM -0800 11/5/97, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>For Aslan males, I assumed that the territorial drive was paramount.  Aslan
>males want to own and hold territory, especially desirable territory; if they
>do this, then mating opportunities (with the females that live on that
>territory) and children that live to adulthood (under his protection) will
>result.  In pre-civilized times, an Aslan male who does not hold the
>territory
>that his female(s) live on will not have children who live to adulthood, even
>if he manages to mate.

Well, remember that Aslan are the product of evolution just like humans.
We went from a male dominating a group of females to a setup where each
mates with whomever they can attract.  Since the Aslan have a formal
marraige type system, they have abandoned the ideat that males get
any woman who wanders (or can be herded or lured) into their territory.
So getting a territory that is attractive (though now it can comprise
more abstract aspects, like mineral rights, having profitable enterpirses
on it, etc.) to females is still a factor (just as being big, strong, and
dominant is still a factor in humans), but just like humans they also
have other factors that have evolved and they also have cultural
influences.

>Because of the 3:1 abundance of females to males, I see the females competing
>for the male's attentions, and particularly for his commitment to helping
>her defend and raise the children.  A relatively high sex drive (and possibly
>a tendancy towards jealousy) might well help in this.

Well, human women compete for the attention of males too and are looking
for the same sort of commitment and, like human women, they have
an interest (evolutionarily) in securing the best male they can get
with as much commitment as they can, rather than seeing how many males
they can mate with.

>In various Canon sources, it is mentioned that Aslan females who want to
>marry frequently strive to do well in business, to demonstrate that they
>will be good wives and managers of the family's business affairs.  In my
>interpretation, this is one way in which civilized Aslan females compete
>with one another for a male's attention.

I agree.

>Because of the 3:1 ratio, Aslan society promotes monagamy as a way of
>keeping the birth rate under control.  As was pointed out earlier, one
>male _could_ very well service an average of 3 females (and quite possibly
>did in prehistoric times) , but this would make the population growth rate
>excessive once the mortality rate started to drop.

Well, Aslan are aleardy in canon as having multiple wives all of which
can bear children just as well from their husband as anyone else.
So that wouldn't cut down the birth rate.  Forcing women to go
unmarried and celebate could work, though humans can do this to
(they just have to do it to equal numbers of men and women)
and Aslan would also have incentive to use other means
as humans (unless you wanted to suppose that they enjoy sex
less than humans, which seems unlikely).

>>Among primates, females "cheating" on the dominate male behind his back
>>occurs.  I don't know about other species.
>
>I believe that it happens more often with some species than with others.
>For the case of the Aslan, I assumed that it happened less often than
>it does with Terran primates.

I can see that, if indeed they come from
a species where women only mated with males who controlled the
territory they are in, then casual sex might be less of a driving
force.  But the would cut both ways.  Females wouldn't tend to sleep
with a male until she had moved in with him, and males would put
getting the woman to move in ahead of sleeping with her.  It would,
in my mind, mean that Alsan have a different attitude toward
"premarital" sex than humans, but I don't see it as making
a big difference in sex drive.

[Agreement that the Ancients genetical eliminating breeding
season could go either way and a sense that we each would
guess differently]

[Regarding evolution on Lair...]
>I doubt that there's been sufficient time since the time of the Ancients
>for significant amounts of evolution to occur.

There was for humans.  We are not the same species that was taken and
that is why you have things like Zhodane having different numbers of
teeth.

>>They're always ready, but females are only in estrus a few times a year.

>There are many species that approximate this, and the males don't seem
>to be particularly insane.  I assumed that, although the male would be
>always ready, his sex drive varies, so that he's not so frustrated when
>it's not mating season.

If females were only receptive a few times a year, then males would
have evolved to be used to it.  The common mechanism is that a male
sex drive doesn't kick in until he senses the female is potentially
receptive.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:27:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!)

>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:58:02 -0600
>From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
....
>If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
>disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
>assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
>Unlike a regular mugging, these aren't liquid assets like cash or credit
>cards. This is a lot of information, raw material, finished goods,
>chemicals, live animals... unless the pirate knows *before hand* (how?)
>what the cargo is, he could be in possession of 20 tons of Antarean
>Mountain Groats.

Hello,
  Even if the cargo is all you get, just cream off the best as you can,
and go to some backwater without real controls, and sell at a moderate
discount (20-50%). Your profit margin is still _real_ good.

>And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
>information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
>Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
>bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.

  This is probably only an issue if the cargo is examined by the authorities,
in which case you may as well have a final shoot-out. Unless it's one of
Douglas' boarding parties, in which case it's recommended you go peacefully :)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:34:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:30:21 -0600, Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>	We're pretty darn close to primates.  I remember reading in
>_Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors_ (St. Carl doing human evolution) this long
>list of behavious that humans and chimps shared in common...  in fact,
>Sagan seemed to imply (in stating that the only real difference was that
>chimps don't have abstract codes of behavioural norms) that lawyers were
>the driving force behind human evolution taking the course it has :).
>
>	Ok.  So it was a real stretch.  So sue me :).
>
>	But seriously, there are some pretty chimp-like human societies out
>there, as Carl pointed out; motorcycle gangs spring to mind.

Well, of course this is something that is hard to pin down.  Do
they go in gangs because of pirmate genetics?  Or because a group
of people can get what they want from individuals?  I guess
I'm mostly saying is that it should be treated evenhandedly.
One shouldn't look at a human group and say they formed because
they decided to and look at a Vargr group and say they are a
"pack" because they are evolved from "dogs".  If everyone
in the Imperium, except Vargr, keep noticing they act like
wolves, then everyone, except humans, should keep noting
they act like chimps.  (And for every "Vargr/dog" joke
that a human makes another race should be making a
"human/chimp" joke.)

>  I could see
>Vargr "packs".

It would be better to say that, like all being evolved from
social animals, they tend to look to form groups to solve
problems and prefer interacting with others.

> OTOH, your point about genetic manipulation by Grandfather
>could very well hold.  In fact, it makes a lot of sense.  I don't think
>I'll decide one way or the other without reference to canon.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2062
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2063



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
[T97#2056] That three-letter word
[T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger
[T97#2053] S*X
TravLang?
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Bilandian
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!)
Humans = chimps (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059)
Re: That three-letter word
From the Diary of a Pirate
CSC Abuse: Memo to Sky Marshal Verhoeven
re: Evading laser fire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:51:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:58:02 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>I've noticed a tendency towards faulty analogy. Piracy cannot be
>compared to street crime, transit crime, or mugging.

Well, I think the fault is that piracy _is_ just another crime
that is, wrongly, being singled out for elimination.  The fact
is that there are things that hold true for criminal activity
from organized crime down to street crime and for muggers
trying to get someone one the street back in time to highway
robbery.

>The average merchant vessel is valued in the tens of *Mega*Credits.
>That's a bucketload of cash for most citizens. If even _one_ of these
>things is stolen, it *is* a big deal.

Well, it is not clear that piracy takes ships or cargo (and that
has been debated already).  In any case, the costs are not
bourne by average joes, but either by corps, the banks who
the owner will default to, or insurance.  They will be real
keen in weighing taxes versus losses.  To  the average
person in the Imperium I doubt piracy will be the crime
that bother them the most and to a corp it will be one
of a number of sources of losses.

>It's a major bank heist. The local
>authorities (representing the Imperium) *will* take notice. It's not a
>mugging, or a transit crime.

Well, we don't take 1% of our military budget and divert
it to eliminating bank robbery either.  At that rate
you could have a guy behind a bullet proof shield ready
to shoot any bank robber.

>If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
>disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
>assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.

Well, it is no more difficult than fencing today or that smugglers,
etc. will have to do.  (In fact, that is why smugglers are good
to engage in piracy, they already have contacts to fence goods
and they already have a reason to arm their ships to stop rival
smugglers from taking their stuff).

>And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
>information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.

This falls under the heading of things you can assume if you
want to make piracy harder.  Even if you want to assume it,
you still have the fact that work around will exist and smuggling
is also canon.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:08:01 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2056] That three-letter word

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:06:31 -0500, kenji@accessone.com (Kenji
Schwarz) wrote:

>I like this solution... interesting.  It seems that Aslan males are =
victims
>of a system that's the close cousin of a human male fantasy (c.f. Russ
>Meyer, esp. _Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!_) -- meek, earnest men being
>outnumbered and terrorized by swarms of agressive and sexually voracious
>women.  How ironic!

>PS -- would Aslan males know how to lock a door? Or turn on the =
intercom? <G>

Y'know, I've had so many people misplay Aslan males that I _have_
to answer this seriously:

Yes, they would.  They're not stupid; they are simply not
technologically inclined.  They are _capable_ of learning how to
use technology, and will willingly do so where it is both
culturally acceptable and a proven necessity for their interests
(there probably isn't an Aslan male aboard ship that can't fire,
field-strip, and maintain his gauss rifle or FGMP, for example),
but if it's not something that interests them, they are simply
unwilling to invest the time and effort needed to learn.

In the rare event that it is absolutely necessary for an Aslan to
learn a culturally inappropriate skill (such as if the Aslan is
an Outcast), they will learn the skill - it is ultimately a
matter of life and death - but they will never publicly admit to
knowing the skill.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:08:12 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:28:19 -0500, Kenneth Bearden
<dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>> So, Roger: inform us. Is this all _completely_ bogus, or will you =
someday
>> _do_ something and make me eat my words?
>>
>> Jo Grant
>
>Jo--just a question.  Did Roger do something to piss you off?

Quite likely - among other things, he's been sitting on a
goldmine of Traveller stuff that DGP wrote, and hasn't
re-released it or arranged for someone else to do so.

Although I would tend to characterize this as an error of
omission rather than commission.

His last message on the state of the negotiations to get this
stuff re-released, and some of the unfinished Traveller products
(the MegaTraveller Alien series, and the Black Duke sourcebook
immediately come to mind) implied that IG was the bottleneck; I
took it at face value at the time; given that they have since
arranged a license for SJG, and given the liberal non-profit
license arrangements that make so many of our web sites possible
(and for which Freelance Traveller is officially and thoroughly
thankful), I now think that Roger is much like certain
acquaintances of mine - lots of very good ideas; little
follow-through.

A similar situation obtains with respect to AI and Macrocosm, two
non-Traveller-related products for which he also painted glowing
pictures, but which, to this day, are still as much vaporware as
Windows for Toaster-ovens.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:07:48 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2053] S*X

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:05:46 -0500, Loren Wiseman
(GDWGAMES@aol.com) wrote:

>A couple of comments=20

>Comment #1:
>Aslan are not cats. They are no more closely related to cats than they =are to
>eggplants. They do not love catnip, they do not meow, and they do not =rub
>their chin glands on everything in sight.=20

.... and they're quite likely to be _very_ upset if you suggest
that they do... assuming that they catch the allusions at all
(varies from individual to individual, natch...)

>FWIW, I think Wildstar's take on the situation comes closest to my own.=20

>Comment #2:
>The extent to which alien races find sex enjoyable is a matter for =debate. It
>is a major drive in Humans, but there is no reason why Aslan should be
>subject to the same drives (and no reason for them not to -- this is the= sort
>of thing GDW preferred to leave up to individual referees). Present day
>Terrans have a wide variety of sexual customs and behaviors, and we may
>assume that other races are equally (if not more) varied.

=46WIW, there was a strictly non-canonical (but very plausible)
document that circulated here a while back that described the
"mechanical issues" of sex among Vargr and Aslan.  I have the
text, and will send it, _private_mail_only_, to interested
parties.  I would very much like to see someone work up a similar
document on the "social issues" of sex among the major races,
just for completeness.

>Comment #3
>> The Zhodani, for example, would never go to a prostitute, because of
>> their dislike for any untruly.

>I see no reason for the Zhos to frown on the use of prostitutes (indeed,= they
>are probably a form of therapist in Zhodani culture).

True, but then they are not "prostitutes" by definition;
prostitution implies the selling of sexual activity as the
objective, rather than as a vehicle for therapy.  Fine line,
perhaps, but a very real one...

>> But if two of them come together it might
>> be a night like no other - mentally linked toegether.

>Not all Zhodani are psionic. Many of those who have psi talents have no
>talent for telapathy.=20

Yeah, but still, thinking about what two telepaths - or two
_empaths_ ...

>For those who care, I believe the sexual habits of every Traveller alien= have
>been a topic for argument that has used up almost as much bandwidth as
>pirates and (dare I say it)=20
>big rocks. Don't open the floodgates again...some people are still =wearing
>their underwear too tight : )

See above re: offer to send document.  Subscribers with clenched
gonadim need not apply... :)

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1997 17:38 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: TravLang?

Is there really a TravLang mailing list?  
May I be included in it??

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:58:57 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In a message dated 97-11-06 00:39:52 EST, you write:

<< >I see no reason to change 'em. If they ain't broke, why 'fix' them?  >>

OK. It isn't broke. I won't fix it.

I am interested in

1. finding a way to use the Bilanidin font with equivalents to the Vilani
phonemes,

2. A vocabulary list.

what else do you have?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:55:36 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In a message dated 97-11-06 07:46:06 EST, you write:

<< 
 <Screams of pain and resignation from the TravLang list and the "Teach
 Yourself Vilani!" project>  >>

This is a cryptic remark which doesn't do me any good, since I don't follow
that list. 

Marc

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1997 17:44 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Bilandian

Kenji Speaketh:

"the "real" Vilani script, we're thinking, works something like
Korean Han'gul: alphabetic elements combined into syllabic graphic blocks."


Extremely COOL!

For my Cr0.02, the Maya syllabary chunks phonemes together to
write out it's words in a fashion similar to Hungul.  Less organized 
than Hangul; however, it ends up being very artistic in appearance, 
whereas Hangul looks very elegant and Asian (duh).

I want in on the Vilani "real" script design.  Pretty please?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:56:01 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In a message dated 97-11-06 02:20:39 EST, you write:

<< 26 symbols?  That feels to me too close to the 26 letters familiar to
 every English speaker.  Shouldn't we have 30 or 22 or something?>>

The 26 symbols stems from the fontmaker mapping symbols to the 26 letters of
the alphabet.

Actually, the Vilani word generator (MT Referee's Companion) has 17 distinct
letter (counting Sh and Kh as one letter each). Some letters could be
positional (that is to say, Sh at the beginning of a syllable could be a
different symbol than Sh at the end of a syllable). And some of the symbols
could be punctuation.

Vilani Letters:

A B D E G I K L M N P R S U Z Sh Kh

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:42:56 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

douglas wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I've noticed a tendency towards faulty analogy. Piracy cannot be
> > compared to street crime, transit crime, or mugging. I assume the
> > average Imperial citizen's purchasing power is the same order of
> > magnitude as the average citizen in today's industrialized countries.
> > (This can be inferred from the chargen charts)
> >
> > The average merchant vessel is valued in the tens of *Mega*Credits.
> > That's a bucketload of cash for most citizens. If even _one_ of these
> > things is stolen, it *is* a big deal. It's a major bank heist. The local
> > authorities (representing the Imperium) *will* take notice. It's not a
> > mugging, or a transit crime.
> 
> Actually, if you work the scale from the bottom (the individual citizen) to the
> top (megacorporations with annual budgets greater than most world's GWP), and
> put in in the perspective of the Imperium (Impersonal bureacracy spanning
> thousands of worlds, etc...), the piracy of a 1,000- dTon ship looks more like a
> carjacking.  It's enough to get the local 'police' (Planetary or Cluster forces)
> involved, and if it happens enough, to bring in the 'state' cops (i.e. SubSector
> fleet attention), but Imperial Forces?  Not likely, if it is happening at a
> Class D or E world (which by definition would have very little clout, or it
> would have a better starport, no?)

You've missed my point.

The "bottom" of the scale is relatively equivalent to todays "bottom".
The analogy doesn't hold. The top could be infinite and it wouldn't
matter. To use an example, just because Bill Gates is worth tens of
billions doesn't mean he won't notice it if someone walks in and steals
the 10 million dollar Leonardo da Vinci notebooks.

In the same vein, the Imperium *because* it is a bureaucracy spanning
thousands of worlds, (it's everywhere!) *will* get involved. If an item
worth the yearly salary of 1000 of its citizens is stolen, it is a cause
of concern.

It's no "carjacking". A car is worth less than a thousandth of a
starship. A car is many orders of magnitude easier to steal than a
starship.

Your assumption is piracy is as common as modern petty larceny, and
therefore the Imperium won't notice. My assumption is piracy is
difficult. Therefore when it happens, it is noticed. This is bigger than
grand theft auto. MILLIONs of creds. Big bucks.

> As a caveat, however, once you start hitting the 1,000+ dTon ships (and some
> selected smaller ships...), you are hitting megacorp ships...they are mobile
> patches of political clout that can call in the big guns.  You don't want to
> annoy someone who has lunch with the Arch Duke!  :)  That is, of course,
> assuming they do not decide to resolve the issue without Imperial intervention!
> 8D

At least we agree here. You really have to have guts (or be stupid) to
take on a MegaCorp.

> > If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
> > disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
> > assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
> > Unlike a regular mugging, these aren't liquid assets like cash or credit
> > cards. This is a lot of information, raw material, finished goods,
> > chemicals, live animals... unless the pirate knows *before hand* (how?)
> > what the cargo is, he could be in possession of 20 tons of Antarean
> > Mountain Groats.
> 
> If you assign any kind of intelligence to a pirate, they will either know
> roughly what you are carrying, or you had the bad luck to be a target of
> opportunity.  Brokers and Traders advertise what they have, it's the only way to
> make cargo move (unless, of course, it is the 'small package' trade, but that
> has it's own risks, including cargo-jacking).  Ships advertise their
> destinations and approximate schedules, it's the only way to get passengers.
> Manifests are recorded at the starport.  It's all information that is available,
> if you have the capability to access it.

Cargo manifests are *not* public knowledge. There's no way to know which
cargos are going where, on what vessel, and how to identify that vessel,
without covertly obtained information.

> > And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
> > information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
> > Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
> > bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.
> 
> Security devised by men, will be broken by men.  Records can be forged.
> Electronic tags can be altered.  Shipments can be broken up and repackaged in
> new containers.  Admittably, new and intriguing security devices can and will be
> introduced, but they are exceptions, not the rule.

Forging records, altering tags, fencing the goods... all of this takes
very specific knowledge from a wide variety of fields.

The vast majority of cargos would be very difficult to resell. The cargo
is intended for a specific market. Who would buy it? Would the paultry
sum received be worth the risk?

> > So again, I reach the conlusion that piracy is possible to occur once in
> > a while (it's too profitable not to), but Imperial Authorities will be
> > vigilant. There is too much risk for lone individuals, so the successful
> > pirate will have a well laid out plan, information covertly supplied,
> > and most importantly, the backing of a government or large corporation.
> 
> The Imperial Authorities have far too much to do, to be concerned with
> _unorganized_ piracy, especially small ship conflicts.  As with most crime, you
> concentrate on the major offenders, and hope that the patrol cops catch the
> rest.  Once a pattern has been established, I'm sure that there are specific
> units or investigation teams that may form to track down an individual - but
> that individual will have to make quite the splash before that happens!

My point has been this: "Unorganized" Piracy is incredibly, insanely
difficult!! No, let be me more clear, "Unorganized" Piracy is
impossible! A fool's errand.

Lets see... you need covert knowledge of the "mark"'s manifest, a spy
with intrusion skills, a broker able to know where a cargo could be
sold, equipment and methods able to move cargo from one ship to another
in space, a well armed starship, the ability to crack the encrypted
manifest and lineage, the skills to forge new documents, a willing
buyer...

You gotta be organized. You gotta have the backing of a government,
corporation or crime syndicate. Or you're toast. A footnote on the 11
o'clock news.

> Actually, in keeping with the theme of the thread (making piracy possible for
> the GM) - how does the idea of a Piracy Investigative Arm sound?  These are the
> sophonts who reconstruct the event, trace the ships and cargos taken, and
> eventually identify the perp?

It could well be there is a Imperial Navy Office for Piracy Suppression
and Investigation of Terrorist Acts. (INOPSITA)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:59:43 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!)

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:58:02 -0600
> >From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> >Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
> ...
> >If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
> >disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
> >assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
> >Unlike a regular mugging, these aren't liquid assets like cash or credit
> >cards. This is a lot of information, raw material, finished goods,
> >chemicals, live animals... unless the pirate knows *before hand* (how?)
> >what the cargo is, he could be in possession of 20 tons of Antarean
> >Mountain Groats.
> 
> Hello,

Hi.

>   Even if the cargo is all you get, just cream off the best as you can,
> and go to some backwater without real controls, and sell at a moderate
> discount (20-50%). Your profit margin is still _real_ good.

No, the discount will be closer to 90%. (This has been posted on this
thread in the past) How much money does it cost to travel to the
backwater world? How much money does it cost to feed the groats in the
meantime? Who's going to buy 20 tons of groats?

You'll probably have to break the lot, and sell it in small parts. (More
travel. more time. time=money. ergo, less money.)

What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 10% of
that is how much? Less cost of transport? Less food and supplies for the
ship's crew? Less time lost in travel, searching for a buyer? What
exactly is the profit margin? Is that profit worth putting your armed
starship at risk in a battle?

These questions need to be answered before I will believe that cargo
piracy can be profitable. I see no one addressing them. These points
apply to every cargo, not just groats.

If it's more profitable for an individual to make a living honestly, (or
dishonestly in easier ways :) ) I don't see why there would be piracy.

> >And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
> >information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
> >Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
> >bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.
> 
>   This is probably only an issue if the cargo is examined by the authorities,
> in which case you may as well have a final shoot-out. Unless it's one of
> Douglas' boarding parties, in which case it's recommended you go peacefully :)

No, it's always an issue when trying to find a buyer. No reputable buyer
would buy a cargo that wasn't intended for them (ie exactly what they
ordered, from their supplier), and has the correct documents attached.
They could get in *big* trouble.

This *drastically* reduces the opportunity for a character to fence the
cargo. He's got to have connections. It will very difficult to sell
large lots of possibly obscure cargo (that is, cargo intended for a
specific market -- widgets for the production of X-Co's Spargle
Munchners)

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1997 22:14:23 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Humans = chimps (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2059)

>just saying humans will act like chimps will be
>as wrong as it is right.  All these species
>have travelled a long journey since their animal ancestors

You haven't been to a political copnvention, have you?  :-/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:57:22 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@carl.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

At 08:30 AM 11/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>	We're pretty darn close to primates.  I remember reading in
>_Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors_ (St. Carl doing human evolution) this long
>list of behavious that humans and chimps shared in common...  in fact,
>Sagan seemed to imply (in stating that the only real difference was that
>chimps don't have abstract codes of behavioural norms) that lawyers were
>the driving force behind human evolution taking the course it has :).

Another point, maybe a not so important one, that got me thinking, was the
Grandfather decided to take human specimens 300kya, but humans haven't
looked like us for more than 40-60kya. At the time, archaic homo sapiens,
with protruding supra orbital ridges, strong jutting jaws, and a hint of
that occipital bun on the back of their skulls would be just coming on the
scene. Unless you could say that Grandfather did some modification beyond
that to correct this little time lapse, there might be some possibilities
in designing a human minor race that still has these characteristics.
Perhaps you could argue parallel evolution for the rest. I don't know all
the human minor races that have been described, though, so I don't know if
this idea has already been covered.

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1997 18:42 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: From the Diary of a Pirate

236-1016 	Dear Diary,

Had a good week pirating.  Got 20 tons of Antarean Mountain
Groats in stasis.  Good thing the Marches haven't been able
to agree on encryption standards, cargo labels or identiradio
tags, or else this stuff would be too hot to handle.  Sold 
them for Cr1000/ton on Tureded.  The locals don't care where
this stuff comes from; their economy doesn't run that hot 
anyway, or else they'd be a class A with fifty SDB's.

I guess I'd better apply my profits to my ship's monthly 
payment... not.  We barbecued one of them groats.  The hide 
should make a fine coat for special occasions.  Gotta work our 
way over to Rech to see that tanner guy.

On the way to the second gas giant, the sensor ops guy 
complained about this "life of crime", but heck, I think it 
beats living on Roup, or even the Regina slums.  Or, for
some of us, an unhappy and violent incarceration on The Gash.

Sunbeard the Pirate

250-1016	Dear Diary,

Offered protection for a free trader inbound to Rech in
exchange for their life support scrubbers.  Good condition...
from a TL 14 port... keeps the smell down a little bit.  
Should be good for a couple months.  At the starport I
dropped off the groatle for processing.

Heard about a little local unrest in Rhise from a tramp
freighter captain.  Perhaps we should go see what's up.
Sure it's TL10, but it's just a class C starport.  There
might be good stuff there.

Sunbeard the Pirate

263-1016	Dear Diary,

WOW!  What incredible luck.  Rhise underwent such a 
revolution like you wouldn't believe.  And so sudden, too!
The Equus Patrol dragged their feet getting here -- this
kind of thing is always looming, and there've been so many
false alarms -- and we had a field day.  I'll bet the 
Baron Rhise (if there is one) is screaming his head off.
We got a bit of electronics, some TL10 firearms, even a
laser battery.  And of course we helped ourselves to the
fuel tanks.  Got to get those lasers installed somehow...
I know a guy on Cogri who might be able to do it.  I know
he likes dust-spice for his Aslan friends, and I also know
he can't afford anagathics.  Now, where can I find a
shipment of anagathics...

Sunbeard the Pirate

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:53:48 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: CSC Abuse: Memo to Sky Marshal Verhoeven

Top Secret Project Heinlein "Bug-Zapper" Anti-Arachnid Armoured Vehicle (TL9)
Designed by R.D.Elliott

Summary:
     8.00 displacement ton box streamlined;  295 tonnes;  MCr 6.02
Chassis:
     112 kL box streamlined (7.5 m long x 3.9 m wide x 3.9 m high);
Structure: 2.70 tonnes of composite laminate, rated for 2.0Gs, body 0.010
cm thick, sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 15 front (10 cm), 15 sides (10 cm), 15 rear (10 cm), 15 top
(10 cm), 15 bottom (10 cm)
Performance:
     Primary: 10.0 MW TL8 Fission power plant;  Fuel: 240 mL of
radioisotopes (4.8 kg), 48 hours supply
Secondary: 20.0 MW TL8 Fission power plant;  Fuel: 240 mL of radioisotopes
(4.80 kg), 24 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 10.0 MW tracks; Maximum Speed: 80 km/h;
Range: 0 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver, 2 gunners, Driver, Electrician, 15 Bait Troopers;
20 external crew stations; Protection: front, sides, rear, top
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots Reloads   Notes
     Insecticide Cannon-6            1         Very Short     1       5 turret1 gunner
     Machinegun, Medium-8            5         Long           200     2 coaxial
     Autocannon, Light-8             10 (7 exp)Long           100     5 turret1 gunner
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL9, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 2.0 cm per km of range
     Active Regional Optical (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 5.0 mm per km of range
Other:
     38.2 kL of cargo space


To: Sky Marshal Verhoeven
From: Director, Project Heinlein
Re: Prototype specs

Dear Sir.  Above are the specifications for our new secret weapon against
the arachnid enemy, the "Bug-Zapper" Anti-Arachnid Armoured Vehicle.  As
the project inception report states, the "tank", an armoured battlefield
vehicle rendered totally obsolete by the advent of nuke bazookas and the
peaceful Citizen Rule of the Terran Federation, displays great promise
against insect adversaries, which, although big and ugly and really
terrifying, are after all armed only with mandibles and claws (albeit big
ones), and in some cases corrosive sprays.

     The "Bug-Zapper" concept is quite simple.  The "Bug-Zapper" is a
flatbed tracked vehicle, capable of speeds up to 80 km/h (significantly
faster than a Warrior Bug on flat terrain) crewed by a driver and an
electrician, who operates the 2 fission power plants.  15 MI Troopers, with
full armament ride on the back of the vehicle, inside a heavily armoured
cage that affords full visibility both in and out.  They occupy a crew
position hourously designated "Bait" by the boys here in the lab.

	When faced with a typical Bug swarming attack, the driver is to
halt the vehicle immediately, and allow the onrushing arachnid horde to
completely bury the vehicle in a writhing, chittering heap of angry
Warriors.  Once the vehicle is completely buried, the electrician then
throws a switch, sending the full 20 megawatt output of the secondary power
plant through the cage bars and outside of the vehicle, spectacularly
electrocuting the Bugs.  The process is to be repeated as needed until
there are only a few bugs left, at which point the the vehicle's armament
(a large insecticide sprayer and a machinegun) and the Bait Troopers' small
arms will deal with the survivors.

	For the winged Hopper bugs, the vehcile is equipped with a VRF
autocannon with special 00 pellet "Bugshot" rounds, easily capable of
downing chitin-armoured targets at range.  Finally, for the Tanker Bugs and
other larger variants, an anti-armour rocket launcher is provided.

	We predict that rapid deployment of this vehicle will drastically
reduce the number of casualties the MI, without armoured vehicles, indeed
without vehicles of any kind, are currently suffering when deployed against
large armoured creatures with vicious natural armament, while wearing only
flak jackets and helmets.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:11:22 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Evading laser fire

>This, however, assumes a 100% accurate sensor fix and
>a 100% accurate laser system.

>Can some kind and/or knowledgeable soul give me some ideas on these 
>numbers?  (And if you can, will you?  Please?)

Laser accuracy is actually nearly perfect for these purposes. Even a TL-8
system can have an accuracy of 4 nanoradians or so, which means an error
circle with area A=(5*10^-9  * R)^2 = 25m2 * (range/1,000,000km)^2, which is
smaller than other error sources - and that's for existing TL-8 systems;
i would expect traveller TL error boxes to be a hundred times smaller.

Sensor accuracy - a sensor lock (in my sensor rules) was defined as a positional
measurement good to 5m (so again an error box 25m2 on a size), if I recall
correctly, at maximum lock-on range; it'll get better as somewhere between
R^2 and R^6 depending on complicated hard-to-model things. 

Again, at most ranges this is negligible, and evasion dominates.

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2063
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2064



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Purpose of piracy (was: Of Pirates and Lurking)
Re: Humans = chimps
Re: Spinning Space Stations
Re: That three-letter word
[T97#2058] 4DOS and Take Command
Evolution on Lair (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058)
Fascism's cool uniforms
Death from ...
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Re: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!
Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
SF Books
Dune Buggy (TL6)
Dune Buggy (TL7)
Dune Buggy (TL8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:29:42 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Purpose of piracy (was: Of Pirates and Lurking)

>>4) Pirates are lightly armed and steal cargo.  Why they would not
>>   normally steal an entire ship, I am not sure.
>
>If you try and take the whole ship you...
>a) Have to take the crew also.  The raises the possibility
....
>and to fight any boarding action.
>
>b) You have to take the ships in jump capable condition
>(no battle damage or crew sabotage).
>
>c) The greater cost and loss of people makes the authorities
>more motivated to catch you.

  Why not just wait and see if you ever get an opportunity safe
enough for your level of desperation/carelessness, and take the
cargo if you must, or the whole d#@n ship if you can? The one
is a windfall to enable you to make some headway on your payments,
and the other is the gift of extreme wealth beyond most wants.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:26:37 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Humans = chimps

>just saying humans will act like chimps will be
>as wrong as it is right.  All these species
>have travelled a long journey since their animal ancestors


Aaaiiieee! Humans are animals, just like the doggies and the kitties and
the winged geckos and the c'cows! Of course it is problematic to compare
behaviors even among closely related species (like the various
primates). However, sapient species (like humans) are no different than
any other when it comes to this.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:43:07 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Spinning Space Stations

At 09:09 am 11/06/97 GMT0, you wrote:
>Hi,
>	I wuz wondering if someone could let me know what the appropriate
>equations governing centripetal force are?
>
>I've designed a low tech space station that requires spin to create gravity,
>the diameter is 800metres or so and I want 1 gravity at the furthest point
from
>the hub. Given these conditions what is the angular velocity?

	Centripetal acceleration required to follow a circular path is v^2/r, so
the apparent "centrifugal gravity" is v^2/r. A point at distance r and
angular velocity w has an instantaneous linear velocity v=wr. Therefore,
a=w^2 r, or the rotation rate required is (a/r)^0.5.

	Unless I've screwed my fundamental dynamics and algebra up typing off the
top of my head ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:43:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

OK, I thought about this and I will give my own take on the
issue of Aslan sexual drives.  In the species that Alsan
evolved from, males collected femals into harems (is this
canon?) and gained access to sex, ofspring and (if the lion
anology holds, though it is not clear if even regarding
Aslan as evolved from lions might not be a mistake) the
prey they catch.  As the race evolves, women remain a
source of resoures (though increasingly in the from of
"wealth" instead of "food").  Thus, it remains
important to not only sleep with women, but also keep
them arond for economic reasons.  Thus I would _guess_
that Aslan would tend to be a bit possesive of their mates.

As the species evolves, females will continue to gain
benefits (protection in child birth, help from the other
women he has, etc.) which will remain as the species
evolve (though they will switch to military/political
benefits).  They thus have about as much to gain from
remaining committed to a male as a human female, though
they are going to be choosier about entering into marraige
than the males since if one finds their mate lacking, males
can marry additional females while the females are committed
to the one male they chose at first.

I see courting as much like human courting in that the
male courts the female, with the difference that the
question of which sex presses for the commitment of
marraige depends more on which see him/herself as
having landed "a good one" rather than it being
more one gender than the other.

Since there seems to be more strive for commitment on
both sides, but Aslan presumably still get some pleasure
from sex which will not be lost on them as they gain
intellegence, I think that you would see premarital
sex, but it would be significantly less common than
among humans....

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 00:57:36 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2058] 4DOS and Take Command

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:28:06 -0500, "Jory M. Earl"
<j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>I use 4DOS and Take Command for Win95, and I highly reccommend them.

I don't.  "Highly" is too inadequate a word for my opinion of
them.

I've beta-tested 4DOS and Take Command for about a year now, and
I've been a user since version 3.00.  The most recent release is
6.00.  There have been a fair number of dot versions.

I have a tagline for my QWK reader, which I reproduce here, which
matches my opinion of 4DOS and Take Command:

4DOS - without it, your PC is broken.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:46:04 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Evolution on Lair (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058)

>I doubt that there's been sufficient time since the time of the
Ancients
>for significant amounts of evolution to occur.


That depends on your definition of "significant." For humans, it is
presumed that the offshoot of H. sapiens sapiens via H. erectus occured
in about this time. Evolution seems to be characterized by long periods
of stasis interrupted by short periods of relatively rapid change
(students of nonlinear dynamics take note ;-).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:50:36 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Fascism's cool uniforms

I had posted before about how the Grey Death Legion (from the FASA Urqyadn
adventure) kept showing up in my campaign for the longest time.  After one
particularly annoying encounter (in which the GDL managed to raid the
party's "privateer" base and make off with a load of booty), one of my
players, in a fit of frustration, grabbed one of the GDL miniatures (a 25mm
Waffen SS soldier, lightly modified), screamed "You're just all talk and a
fnacy suit" and smashed him flat with a book.  Ordinarily, I dislike wanton
destruction of my miniatures, but the moment was so perfect.  Besides, the
crushed GDL trooper became a semi-regular encounter in starports
thereafter; the wounded GDL veteran begging at the bar.


At 02:33 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Glenn wrote:

>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:10:16 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Death from ...

> "Death From Above" used to be the motto of the 44th Airborne Company
> (Training) at Jump School.  I still have the shirt somewhere.  It's been an
> unoffcial motto of Airborne and Air Assult forces since WWII

"Death from Within!" has been the unofficial motto of army cooks
since...oh...1927 or so...or perhaps not. : )

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 19:44:14 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

On 1997-11-06 16:56, Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote the following:

>Actually, the Vilani word generator (MT Referee's Companion) has 17 distinct
>letter (counting Sh and Kh as one letter each). Some letters could be
>positional (that is to say, Sh at the beginning of a syllable could be a
>different symbol than Sh at the end of a syllable). And some of the symbols
>could be punctuation.

The positional idea is interesting, but could be a distraction. 
Positional characters, as far as I know, are mostly useful in script-like 
writing systems where letterforms are joined. Like hindu and arabic.

My thinking on punctuation is that it should be different enough from 
basic letterforms that it is easy to spot and discern.

My explanation of the font is that it's a simplification of a more 
complicated writing system that has been applied to Galanglic phonemes to 
transliterate Galanglic into something the Vilani find easy to read. In 
the same way, chinese is transliterated into the Roman alphabet (pinyin).

>Vilani Letters:
>
>A B D E G I K L M N P R S U Z Sh Kh

On TravLang, we've also counted AA, II, and UU as distinct phonemes, 
bringing the total up to 20.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 19:44:18 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

On 1997-11-06 16:58, Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote the following:

>I am interested in
>
>1. finding a way to use the Bilanidin font with equivalents to the Vilani
>phonemes,

I'm working on that right now. I'm shooting for a Nov. 15 release.

My current thinking is to use the symbol currently assigned to 'q' for 
viani 'kh' and 'x' for 'sh', and modify the current a, i, u symbols for 
vilani aa, ii, and uu phonemes.

>2. A vocabulary list.

This is something we have been working on at TravLang.

I could email you out what I have, if you like.

It's exciting that you're interested in our work!

I'd me more than happy to see my font in an upcoming product (as long as 
I get credit, of course! ;) )

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:40:32 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>
> > Actually, if you work the scale from the bottom (the individual citizen) to the
> > top (megacorporations with annual budgets greater than most world's GWP), and
> > put in in the perspective of the Imperium (Impersonal bureacracy spanning
> > thousands of worlds, etc...), the piracy of a 1,000- dTon ship looks more like a
> > carjacking.  It's enough to get the local 'police' (Planetary or Cluster forces)
> > involved, and if it happens enough, to bring in the 'state' cops (i.e. SubSector
> > fleet attention), but Imperial Forces?  Not likely, if it is happening at a
> > Class D or E world (which by definition would have very little clout, or it
> > would have a better starport, no?)
>
> You've missed my point.
>
> The "bottom" of the scale is relatively equivalent to todays "bottom".
> The analogy doesn't hold. The top could be infinite and it wouldn't
> matter. To use an example, just because Bill Gates is worth tens of
> billions doesn't mean he won't notice it if someone walks in and steals
> the 10 million dollar Leonardo da Vinci notebooks.

I got your point.  You missed mine.  Relative value has a lot of play here.  Yes, we
are talking about 30 - 70 MCr ships.  However, we are discussing them in the
reference of a society where 14-18 MCr ships are common (almost any in-system shuttle
or lauch you care to name), 21 MCr ships are given away (Scouts), and 30 -70 MCr
ships are only viable on the fringe markets of the Imperium.  The real markets use
25,000 dTon ships, and I don't even have a price there - easily a factor of 10 to 20
times the target vessels we see here.  Carjacking may not be appropriate - Truck
jacking would be.  Makes a big splash around the truckstop, even hits the news for
the town it occurs in.  Doesn't make a ripple outside of that area tho'.

> In the same vein, the Imperium *because* it is a bureaucracy spanning
> thousands of worlds, (it's everywhere!) *will* get involved. If an item
> worth the yearly salary of 1000 of its citizens is stolen, it is a cause
> of concern.

The Imperium has many, many other things to worry about besides small ship conflicts,
or events happening to traders with no clout.  We have brought out piracy and
dissected it, but let's keep some things in perspective.  Ships disappear every day.
Some skip.  Some are retired.  Some are damaged.  Some misjump.  As long as the sound
to noise ratio of piracy is kept below a certain level, there will be no response.

> It's no "carjacking". A car is worth less than a thousandth of a
> starship. A car is many orders of magnitude easier to steal than a
> starship.
>
> Your assumption is piracy is as common as modern petty larceny, and
> therefore the Imperium won't notice. My assumption is piracy is
> difficult. Therefore when it happens, it is noticed. This is bigger than
> grand theft auto. MILLIONs of creds. Big bucks.
>

This is where I think we have a basic disagreement.  I think piracy is possible.  I
don't think it is common.  I would imagine there are *maybe* 1 or 2 serious pirates
per sector.  (Let me be clear - SECTOR, not subsector)

[snip]

> >
> > If you assign any kind of intelligence to a pirate, they will either know
> > roughly what you are carrying, or you had the bad luck to be a target of
> > opportunity.  Brokers and Traders advertise what they have, it's the only way to
> > make cargo move (unless, of course, it is the 'small package' trade, but that
> > has it's own risks, including cargo-jacking).  Ships advertise their
> > destinations and approximate schedules, it's the only way to get passengers.
> > Manifests are recorded at the starport.  It's all information that is available,
> > if you have the capability to access it.
>
> Cargo manifests are *not* public knowledge. There's no way to know which
> cargos are going where, on what vessel, and how to identify that vessel,
> without covertly obtained information.

I never said they were public knowledge.  Just that it is information.  So far as
knowing where... [I've been over this before], let's just agree to disagree.  I
obviously allow for more than you do.

> > > And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
> > > information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
> > > Reputable industry and business, the type that would buy most cargoes in
> > > bulk, would not likely buy cargo which is of questionable lineage.
> >
> > Security devised by men, will be broken by men.  Records can be forged.
> > Electronic tags can be altered.  Shipments can be broken up and repackaged in
> > new containers.  Admittably, new and intriguing security devices can and will be
> > introduced, but they are exceptions, not the rule.
>
> Forging records, altering tags, fencing the goods... all of this takes
> very specific knowledge from a wide variety of fields.

forgery, electronics, computer and streetwise - there are no less than 2 characters
(rolled using std. chargen) that have these combination of skills in my current
group.  The individual skills may not be very high - but that is subject to
change...  And I think a merchant character would be familiar with the requirements
to change manifests and cargo containers.

> The vast majority of cargos would be very difficult to resell. The cargo
> is intended for a specific market. Who would buy it? Would the paultry
> sum received be worth the risk?

Raw materials I might agree with.  Finished goods, I don't.  There is a market for
everything.

> >
> > The Imperial Authorities have far too much to do, to be concerned with
> > _unorganized_ piracy, especially small ship conflicts.  As with most crime, you
> > concentrate on the major offenders, and hope that the patrol cops catch the
> > rest.  Once a pattern has been established, I'm sure that there are specific
> > units or investigation teams that may form to track down an individual - but
> > that individual will have to make quite the splash before that happens!
>
> My point has been this: "Unorganized" Piracy is incredibly, insanely
> difficult!! No, let be me more clear, "Unorganized" Piracy is
> impossible! A fool's errand.
>
> Lets see... you need covert knowledge of the "mark"'s manifest, a spy
> with intrusion skills, a broker able to know where a cargo could be
> sold, equipment and methods able to move cargo from one ship to another
> in space, a well armed starship, the ability to crack the encrypted
> manifest and lineage, the skills to forge new documents, a willing
> buyer...
>
> You gotta be organized. You gotta have the backing of a government,
> corporation or crime syndicate. Or you're toast. A footnote on the 11
> o'clock news.

Sorry, by unorganized I meant 'single ship'.  Fleets attract attention.  So far as
the skills and the contacts - most scouts and merchants will already know the people,
it's just how they use 'em.

> > Actually, in keeping with the theme of the thread (making piracy possible for
> > the GM) - how does the idea of a Piracy Investigative Arm sound?  These are the
> > sophonts who reconstruct the event, trace the ships and cargos taken, and
> > eventually identify the perp?
>
> It could well be there is a Imperial Navy Office for Piracy Suppression
> and Investigation of Terrorist Acts. (INOPSITA)



- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:44:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:42:56 -0600
>From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
....
>> > If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
>> > disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
>> > assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
....
>The vast majority of cargos would be very difficult to resell. The cargo
>is intended for a specific market. Who would buy it? Would the paultry
>sum received be worth the risk?
....
>My point has been this: "Unorganized" Piracy is incredibly, insanely
>difficult!! No, let be me more clear, "Unorganized" Piracy is
>impossible! A fool's errand.

Hello,
  Or you've got to be able to take the ship in roughly working
order, and screw the cargo and the "pirates life for me" BS. Get
to where you can sell the ship (i.e., outside the state you're in
- - varies by campaign) and retire to a life in the sun.

  For a well-equipped far trader making profits on normal operations,
this could be a very real option for the morality-impaired if they
come across a safe target of opportunity.

  But yes, the "let's steal two cargos a month and boy are we happy
that we don't understand the statistics of attrition" routine doesn't
fly unless the campaign in question is substantially customised to
make it possible.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:44:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!

>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:59:43 -0600
>From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!)
.....
>>   Even if the cargo is all you get, just cream off the best as you can,
>> and go to some backwater without real controls, and sell at a moderate
>> discount (20-50%). Your profit margin is still _real_ good.
>
>No, the discount will be closer to 90%. (This has been posted on this
....

Hello,
  Well, actually the discount will be situational or vary by campaign.
The transit time issue can be largely avoided by dumping the cargo at
your very own little calibration point and coming back as customers
are arranged. Also, a crooked broker (yes, aka "a fence") can handle
the work to avoid humourous attempts at a barter economy.

>You'll probably have to break the lot, and sell it in small parts. (More
>travel. more time. time=money. ergo, less money.)
>
>What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 

  Don't know. I tried asking on the list recently. No answer. I'm not
big on cargo piracy, and obviously then turning tinker to sell the
stuff is ludicrous.

>If it's more profitable for an individual to make a living honestly, (or
>dishonestly in easier ways :) ) I don't see why there would be piracy.

  Agreed. If it is subsidized, it isn't independent piracy. I also suspect
that full-time pirates won't stop at the cargo, as it's not an economically
rational course of action.

>> >And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
....
>>   This is probably only an issue if the cargo is examined by the authorities,
....
>No, it's always an issue when trying to find a buyer. No reputable buyer

  There's a sudden lack of _dis_-reputable (or dishonest) buyers? Bad news.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:17:18 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)

>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:04:59 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
....
>>  No, but if the 3I/IN/INI want to know, they have a good chance
>>of finding out, even before it's installed. End user certificates
>>would be a simple way to go.
>
>Well, this gets back to assumptions about how extensive
>the documentation on each ship is, whether it get
>distributed so it is at each system when it gets there,
>whether it includes thing like upgrades, etc.  I
>am one of those who don't feel that simply assuming,
>given the slow communications, that all sites will
>have any records they might want is a mistake.

Hello,
  However, having (anti-piracy) intelligence units collating
and distributing material pre-emptively isn't commo-time
dependent, nor is determining that a ship design will be hard
pressed to make money legally, although realizing that a given 
ship must be losing money by reported operations is.

....
>>  I assume you're referring to the Type TJ. If so, keep in mind
>>that this is really a subsidized vessel carrying out business
>>for the Imperial Household.
>
>Yeah, but just uping a computer is only a fraction of
>what those ships do.

  Pardon? Everything that's hidden about that design is meant to 
serve the authorities, including the immense network of agents 
and branch offices they have to draw upon.

....
>>>Um, no.  If you read the description this are tramp traders
>>>operating on the leavings of larger ships.  In fact,
>>>the rebellion source book lists a trader that is considerably
>>>bigger and is still just a frontier transport operating
>
>>  The type TI? Sure, but where do your pirates get the cash for a
>>_2000_ Dt ship?
>
>Yeah, but if even a 2000 ton ship can be described as ships that
>are marginal enough that they are intended to operate off of the
>main trade routes, there are certainly ships that can worry
>a measly 200 ton system defense boat.  (or even the bigger
>400 ton one).

  Again, ImperialLines is an empire wide mega-corp running off
major trade routes. They _are_ the larger ships in their AO.

  Also, if truly independent traders operate ships this big,
where the heck did the financing come from?

>>  The issue then becomes what are anti-piracy/internal security ships
>>capable of, and the supply of 300 and 400 Dt ships for that purpose
>>would indicate that by canon, the vast majority of potential pirates
>>are inferior to those vessels.
>
>Well, I would say the 400 ton SDB (which costs 3/4 what the
>Kuninuir that Hans was using and I felt was appropriate)
>is the bare minimum.  It is as small, or smaller, than
>almost all merchant vessels and what it gains in
>being a military ship is lost in the fact that it
>has to be clearly superior to the biggest ship the
>pirate use (in a situation where the pirate chooses the
>tatical sitation).

  So the 300 and 400 Dt anti-piracy ships designated by canon are
unable to defend themselves against a typical pirate? Does the IN know?

  Actually, the entire idea of when pirates would be attacking warships
needs to be explored in depth, as it seems to reappear quite often.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:18 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: SF Books

My list of SF books I've found interesting, useful, trav-esque, etc. 

Blish, James: The Seedling Stars
Conner, Michael: I Am Not The Other Houdini
Clement, Hal: Mission of Gravity
Silverberg, Robert: Master of Life and Death
Bayley, Barrington: Star Winds, The Grand Wheel, Soul of a Robot, The Rod
of Light
Goulart, Ron: A Talent for the Invisible
Clarke, Arthur C.: Expedition to Earth
Laumer, Keith: BOLO series
Zelazny: My Name Is Legion
Richmond, W + L: Gallagher's Glacier
Asprin, Robert: The Bug War, The Cold Cash War
Niven, Larry: A Gift From Earth, Protector
Russell, Eric F.: With A Strange Device
Robinson, Kim Stanley: MARS series
Pournelle, Jerry: WAR WORLD series, Birth of Fire 
Dick, Phillip K.: Vulcan's Hammer, Solar Lottery
Allen, Roger MacBride: Farside Cannon
Butler, Octavia E.: Mind of my Mind
Bova, Ben: Millennium, Colony
Shaw, Bob: Dagger of the Mind
Pohl + Kornbluth: The Space Merchants
Kuttner, Henry: Fury, Clash By Night
Anderson, Poul: Trader to the Stars, The Man Who Counts, Mirkheim, The
Makeshift Rocket, The Long Night, Tales of the Flying Mountains. 

Phew! What a relief to get that off my chest. 

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 03:10:09 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Dune Buggy (TL6)

Dune Buggy (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.20 displacement ton open-topped open frame;  1.29 tonnes;  Cr 9142
Chassis:
     2.80 kL open-topped open frame (6.1 m long x 87 cm wide x 87 cm high); 
Structure: 384 kg of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 100 L of hydrocarbons
(100 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 69 km/h; 
Range: 695 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     101 L of cargo space

Small and cheap, the dune buggy is little more than a tubular frame with a
pair of seats and a motor. Its low maximum speed isn't an impediment, because
it is intended for off-road use in desert terrain.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 03:10:35 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Dune Buggy (TL7)

Dune Buggy (TL7)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.20 displacement ton open-topped open frame;  1.27 tonnes;  Cr 6622
Chassis:
     2.80 kL open-topped open frame (6.1 m long x 87 cm wide x 87 cm high); 
Structure: 384 kg of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 100 L of hydrocarbons
(100 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 85 km/h; 
Range: 850 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     149 L of cargo space

Small and cheap, the dune buggy is little more than a tubular frame with a
pair of seats and a motor. Its low maximum speed isn't an impediment, because
it is intended for off-road use in desert terrain.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 03:11:07 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Dune Buggy (TL8)

Dune Buggy (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.20 displacement ton open-topped open frame;  1.25 tonnes;  Cr 4582
Chassis:
     2.80 kL open-topped open frame (6.1 m long x 87 cm wide x 87 cm high); 
Structure: 384 kg of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.02 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     100 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 100 L of hydrocarbons
(100 kg), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 101 km/h; 
Range: 1011 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     197 L of cargo space

Small and cheap, the dune buggy is little more than a tubular frame with a
pair of seats and a motor. Although fast enough for highway use, its short
wheelbase and off-road suspension are unstable at high speeds. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2064
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2065



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Penguin Cargo Plane (TL6)
Triumph Monitor (TL4)
Re: TravLang?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058
Political Piracy
An Aslan Robinson Crusoe?
Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Astrophysics question
RE: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Selling stolen cargo
Re: [T97#2058] 4DOS and Take Command

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:23:01 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>On 1997-11-06 16:58, Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote the following:
>
>>I am interested in
>>
>>1. finding a way to use the Bilanidin font with equivalents to the Vilani
>>phonemes,
>
>I'm working on that right now. I'm shooting for a Nov. 15 release.
>
>My current thinking is to use the symbol currently assigned to 'q' for
>viani 'kh' and 'x' for 'sh', and modify the current a, i, u symbols for
>vilani aa, ii, and uu phonemes.

This may not be the forum to do it, but I'd like to re-plug assigning /ii/
to {y} and /uu/ to {w}.

>>2. A vocabulary list.
>
>This is something we have been working on at TravLang.
>
>I could email you out what I have, if you like.
>
>It's exciting that you're interested in our work!

Very, very, very!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 03:09:32 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Penguin Cargo Plane (TL6)

Penguin Cargo Plane (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     100.00 displacement ton cylinder airframe;  121 tonnes;  MCr 5.57
Chassis:
     1400 kL cylinder airframe (27 m long x 8.1 m wide x 8.1 m high, wingspan
50 m);  Structure: 6.66 tonnes of light alloy, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     4x 1.50 MW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plants;  Fuel: 11.3 kL of
high-grade hcarb (11.3 tonnes), 15 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 6.00 MW aircraft with STOL capability; 
Maximum Speed: 157 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 97 km/h; Runway Length: 184 m; Take-Off Time: 13 seconds; 
Range: 2349 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot, navigator, engineer;  3 crew stations;  3 roomy
passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (10.00 kW, TL6, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     140 kL of cargo space

Slow and lumbering, the Penguin is a workhorse for low-tech worlds. Hauling
up to 70 tonnes of cargo out of short rutted airstrips in the middle of
nowhere, Penguins are usually held together with baling wire and good
intentions. Limited passenger seating is provided; extra passengers must
travel in the cargo hold.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 03:11:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Triumph Monitor (TL4)

Triumph Monitor (TL4)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     25.00 displacement ton slab;  458 tonnes;  MCr 2.48
Chassis:
     350 kL slab (24 m long x 6.10 m wide x 2.2 m high);  Structure: 7.21
tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 2.0 cm thick
     Armour: 11 front (22 cm), 11 sides (22 cm), 11 rear (22 cm), 5 top (2.0
cm), 5 bottom (2.0 cm)
Performance:
     10.0 MW TL4 Steam power plant, water-cooled;  Fuel: 18.0 kL of coal
(36.0 tonnes), 48 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 10.0 MW watercraft; Maximum Speed: 7 km/h; 
Range: 361 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: helmsman, 52 gunners, 5 officers, 10 engineers, 20
deckhands;  88 crew stations
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50     
  turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50     
  turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Very Heavy-4            20 (29 expMedium         1       50     
  turret10 gunners
     Cannon, Very Heavy-4            20 (29 expMedium         1       50     
  turret10 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50     
  turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Heavy-4                 22 exp    Long           1       50     
  turret5 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100    
  turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100    
  turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100    
  turret3 gunners
     Cannon, Medium-4                12 (13 expLong           1       100    
  turret3 gunners
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: recreation space, kitchen for 25 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: fire suppression system
     2.73 kL of cargo space

Designed for coastal defense, the Triumph allocates most of its internal
space to guns and magazines. In normal usage the ship is accompanied by a
fleet coaler to top off its bunkers on a daily basis. Although it has
moderate armour, theTriumph is essentially a floating gun platform intended
to fight in concert with coastal fortifications and lighter screening ships. 

A kitchen provides hot meals for the crew, but little else in the way of
amenities is provided. Being so close to port, the crew needs no recreational
facilities, instead being granted regular shore leave.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:23:06 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: TravLang?

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

>Is there really a TravLang mailing list?
>May I be included in it??

It's definitely real <G>.  It's also, so far as I know, entirely open to
anyone who wishes to participate and observes common etiquette, etc.  It's
sort of the linguistic version of GDW-Beta, but not so rigorously
technical.  Experience with learning/studying/knowing more than one
language is obviously a plus; study of linguistics per se is a bigger plus;
but everyone can contribute to the list.

That being said -- I don't  seem to have my subscription info handy.  Can
another TravLanger post the instructions?

This weekend I'll post all the draft material we have to the TravLang list
- -- a typological overview and notes on syntax; phonology, nominal and
verbal morphology, vocabulary list (in one data format or another), and a
summary of irons in the fire.  I'll be putting up a webpage RSN to host
drafts and reference material, too.

The more the merrier -- come join TravLang!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 00:04:44 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058

At 01:08 PM 11/6/97 -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
>just like humans they also have other factors that have evolved and they 
>also have cultural influences.

Oh, certainly; all I've said is that (in my conception, at least), the most
important factor (although hardly the only one) is aquisition of land.  And
I've also postulated that the Aslan female's desire to mate is stronger than
that of the male (I do assume that they both have such a desire).

>Well, human women compete for the attention of males too and are looking
>for the same sort of commitment and, like human women, they have
>an interest in securing the best male they can get

Yep.  And human women have a sex drive, too.  This is one of the reasons
that I assumed that Aslan females would have one.  It'd be hard to do a
cross-species comparison, since not only does the biology differ, the culture
differs, too.

>Well, Aslan are aleardy in canon as having multiple wives all of which
>can bear children [...] So that wouldn't cut down the birth rate.

I believe that it's only the high-SOC Aslan males that have multiple wives 
(basically, those that have enough land and can support the much larger 
family).  The average Aslan male can't.  Thus, for rough figuring-out
purposes, I've assumed that approximately a third of the females marry and
have children.

>Forcing women to go unmarried and celebate could work,

Well, the solution that I came up with (and this is what got us started on
this topic) was that Aslan society (and possibly biology) encourages umarried 
females to have female-female sexual relations as a much more emotionally 
fulfilling (and therefore stable and reliable) alternative to celibacy.

>[I]f [Aslan] women only mated with males who controlled the territory they 
>are in, then casual sex might be less of a driving force.  Females wouldn't 
>tend to sleep with a male until she had moved in with him, and males would 
>put getting the woman to move in ahead of sleeping with her.

That's about the way I was thinking.  IMHO, for this to work, the males will
need to have less of a sex drive than the females do; this is so that the
male can remain happily celibate until he does attract a female (it seems
to me that all, or almost all, Aslan males eventually marry).  

IF you accept my female-female premise above, then unmarried females have 
other socially acceptable outlets for their sexual needs, and don't need
to be able to remain celibate.  They can be happily unmarried and
uncelibate.  It is pretty-well established that there is a significant
fraction of Aslan 
females that don't want marriage or children, and do remain unmarried for
their entire lives.

>[Regarding evolution on Lair...]
>>I doubt that there's been sufficient time 
>
>There was for humans.  We are not the same species that was taken [...]

Unless I'm very mistaken, I believe that all of the human races in Traveller
are interfertile (it is well established in the Canon that Vilani and
Solomani are, and by definition that makes all of the humans in Traveller
the same species (Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, etc.).

Relatively minor variation (such as in number of teeth, number of fingers,
most common hair and skin color, etc) can be explained as being caused by a 
small initial original population that had these traits.

The Vargr have a LOT of subspecies, and at least as much (probably more)
variation between them than between the various Human subspecies.  This was
probably deliberate on the part of the Ancients.  But, AFIK all Vargr are the 
same species (all dogs - regardless of breed and despite wide variations in 
size and appearance - are the same species).


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 00:29:44 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Political Piracy

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:
>piracy of a 1,000 dTon ship looks more like a carjacking.  It's enough to
get 
>the local 'police' involved, and if it happens enough, to bring in the
'state' 
>cops, but Imperial Forces?  Not likely!

>However, once you start hitting the 1,000+ dTon ships (and some selected 
>smaller ships...), you are hitting megacorp ships...they are mobile patches 
>of political clout that can call in the big guns.  You don't want to annoy 
>someone who has lunch with the Arch Duke!

Even a small commercial starship is purchased with a bank loan.  I assume
that means that the ship is insured against loss (a smart bank would require
it).  It's also likely that except in the case of the smallest tramp 
freighters, the ship's captain or the bank has insurace that covers the cargo 
as well.

This means that if a ship is pirated, either the shipowner, the shipper, the 
bank or the insurance company takes the loss (probably the insurance
company).  
If this sort of thing happens too often, it gets painful (after all, 50MCr 
isn't unreasonable for a sub-1000 ton ship; 5 such losses gets to be a
QUARTER 
BILLION credits, and that's enough to make anyone have a bad day).

We know that there are Megacorporations that do banking and insurance.  While
a pirate may avoid megacorp-owned ships, is the pirate going to be able to
run 
an insurance check on her target before attacking, to make sure they're not 
megacorp financed or insured?

If a megacorp starts loosing money to the tune of billions of credits, (and
we're not talking about many incidences for this to happen), you can be sure
that the Archduke will hear about it.  Even if the insurance company is a
small one, they'll have to compensate somehow - by raising rates for
everyone else.  And so will all of the other insurance companies in the
area, because there's no guarantee that _they_ won't be the next ones to
suffer a loss from the pirates.  Now instead of a handful of shipowners 
who've been directly hit, _every_ shipowner in the subsector is upset about 
the piracy.  And you can be sure that Important People will start hearing
about it.

Historical examples abound, but my favorite is US privateers operating off
of England (you've heard of John Paul Jones and the _Bonhomme Richard_,
right?).  The number of merchant ships captured or destroyed wasn't really
significant compared to England's shipping trade - but it was enough to
cause insurance rates to double temporarily.  And THAT was enough that every 
shipper and every shipowner in England lobbied Parlament to get the Royal
Navy 
to DO SOMETHING about those horrible Colonial pirates.  And this political
pressure was more than enough to get the Royal Navy to devote a significant
and visible fraction of its resources to dealing with a relatively small 
number of relatively weak American ships.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 21:47:06 PST
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
Subject: An Aslan Robinson Crusoe?

> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:15:31 -0800
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: That three-letter word

> An Aslan "Robinson Crusoe" would either figure out how to fend
> for himself *quickly* or die.  Given that the cultural bias 
> runs so deep,I can see many a shipwrecked Aslan dying due to 
> his lack of practical knowledge.

If by "Robinson Crusoe" you refer to an Aslan marooned on a planet
in a wilderness situation, I don't agree.  A male would be just as
suited (if not more) than a female for survival in a low-tech,
wilderness survival situation.  The list of female-only skills
does not include any skill that is particularly vital in this
sort of case.

However, if you would refer to an Aslan male who is stranded in a
more technologically demanding situation (i.e. on a ship, or on a
planet whose environment requires technology to survive -- vacuum,
toxic or exotic atmospheres, etc.) then I would tend to agree. Then,
they would either learn quickly and survive (and never, EVER, admit
they know female skill!) or die.

- --
Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Montgomery County, Ohio


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:45:42 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking

>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:51:36 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
....
>Well, my take is that keeping patrols going in systems with
>low traffic and little military importance just isn't seen
>as being worth the cost.  Obviously this has been debated
>based on reasons and assumptions that are too numerous
>to go into.

Hello,
  There is a case to be made that existing small warships may as
well be used, especially as patrol work is one of their presumed
major wartime duties.

  OTOH, no reasonable amount of patrolling will prevent either
certain cases or rare circumstances arising in which a target
of opportunity does present itself to an armed moral cripple.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:45:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:51:48 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
....
>The patrols in question exist to spot an invaision fleet and
>immediately jump back to the main fleet with the news.  They
>don't have to be armed enough to be able to stop a pirate,
>be close enough to be able arrive in time to stop a pirate,
>or even necessarily be able to reliably spot single ships.
>Furthermore, the would exist only within some distance
>of the frontier.

Hello,
  This presupposes that both reconaissance in force and anti-
logistics (both classic cruiser roles) will be non-existent
until such time as the main fleets from a couple subsectors
back arrive?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:36:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Astrophysics question

In mail, uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu writes:

>> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:58 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> Subject: Astrophysics question
>> 
>> I'm working on an evil idea, but I need to know how long it takes for a
>> neutron star to get rid of the gas nebula. As I understand it, at that
>> point it shouldn't be making "pulsar noises" that are noticeable at any
>> great distance, right?
>> 
> Wrong.  The pulsar noises come from the rotating magnetic field.  Most of
> the radiation associated with the nebula is secondary radiation (usually
> sycrotron) driven by the rotation of the fields inside.  This sycrotron
> does fall off as the nebula's density decreases.  

So even 5-10 billion years later it'll still be generating pulses as
strong as a "new" pulsar (like the one in the Crab Nebula)?

>> Also, what would it look like once you get close enough to image it,
>> and what sort of rotation rate would be expected? 
>
> From a few seconds to a few milliseconds.  

How about the appearance? 

> If you need more info, let me know.  I'm currently working on thermol
> evolution of neutron stars.

Basicly, I need info on what a neutron star formed *early* in the
"first generation" of stars would be like now. Stuff like surface temp
(or spectral curve, if it is likely to be really different than black
body). 

If my idea is workable, it will have planets. So I need to be able to
figure surface conditions on them, as well as conditions in space.

BTW, would you happen to have estimated masses and orbital periods for
the pulsar planets that've been discovered so far? 

My main problemm is that if I can use the pulsar the way I want to, it
has to *not* be "announcing" its presence unless you are looking hard.
So if observatories sectors away will have plotted it, the idea won't
work. (Though I have a backup plan for this).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:58:38 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: (back to: Piracy -- the new era!

[snip]


> >What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 

base price is cr 4,000, modified by origin world (trade codes and TL) and destination world (trade codes and TL) and by a random die roll.

> 
_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:03:28 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

I wrote:

>>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;

Doug Berry replied:

>Glenn, with your kind permission, I'm stealing this for a .sig...

Flattering - but use it unattributed, please. I wouldn't want even a chance
that anyone might read it out of context and think that I said it
semi-seriously, or without a heavy larding of irony.

The film really does have a disturbing problem. I came out of _Starship
Troopers_ a bit stunned. It's as if Verhoeven set out to make a work of
unabashed ultra-militaristic right-wing commercial, cheerfully admitting,
"Sure, it's fascist propaganda. You got a problem with that?!"

I can't help being reminded of the kid in Rick Veitch's satirical comic
"The Brat Pack" (if you happen to have read that), the mindless high school
kid who likes to look at books on the Nazis - not because he's interested
in knowing anything about history, but because he thinks the uniforms and
symbols and stuff look "cool".

Verhoeven's approach to making _Starship Troopers_ seems to have been: "If
it looks cool, use it - even if it's insultingly daft." Or if it's morally
questionable, for that matter.

Just wait'll you get a load of "Psychic Gestapo Officer Doogie Hauser"...

 + G M G +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 05:15:56 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In a message dated 97-11-06 12:40:47 EST, you write:

<< 
 Yup. I'm not doing an upper case set. The Roman & Cyrillic alphabets are
 rare in that they have upper and lower cases. I see no need for two
 cases.
>

Tho upper and lower case differentiation does make things more readable.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:35:40 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Selling stolen cargo

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> mentioned, re: Cost of piracy
suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)...

Not a rant, just a few points, worth discussing since they are, at least, on
a slightly different aspect of the Piracy debate:

>Cargo manifests are *not* public knowledge. There's no way to know which
>cargos are going where, on what vessel, and how to identify that vessel,
>without covertly obtained information.

Given what goes on nowadays on Terra, and the ease with which one can
acquire equivalent information, legally or illegally, I think that's a
pretty bold statement to make!

IMHO, on med/high tech worlds, the entire manifest may not be stored in one
location in the starport computers, but all the transactions, from broker
purchase records through to customs records will be available through one
source or another, legal or illegal. It wouldn't require much work to gain a
full description of the manifest - even if the computers are fairly secure,
there are hundreds of starport officials (from cargo handlers to customs
officials) who can give the information away, either in a casual reference,
or if bribed to do so.

>Forging records, altering tags, fencing the goods... all of this takes
>very specific knowledge from a wide variety of fields.

In much the same way that fraudulent use of stolen mobile phones and/or
their identities, requires specific knowledge but is commonplace today?

>My point has been this: "Unorganized" Piracy is incredibly, insanely
>difficult!! No, let be me more clear, "Unorganized" Piracy is
>impossible! A fool's errand.

Which probably means that any pirates that have survived for more than a few
weeks are exceptionally intelligent, organised, and have all the skills (and
mentality) of a typical Traveller adventuring group (or they're Vargr). Now
obviously adventurers are supposed to be a rare breed, but that doesn't mean
there aren't any such pirates about...

>Lets see... you need covert knowledge of the "mark"'s manifest...
Which I pointed out wouldn't need much work to obtain if the world's law
level is, say 7 or less.

>a spy with intrusion skills...
I think I missed why this was necessary, but I'll assume you mean to steal
cargo details, so computer hacking, bribery or similar might be appropriate.
Certainly knowledge of breaking into cargos isn't rare nowadays (any more
than breaking into cars is a particularly 'specialist' field)

>a broker able to know where a cargo could be sold...
Just the sort of skills that an ex-merchant, turned pirate would have
anyway, or could easily recruit at any starport if he paid well enough.

>equipment and methods able to move cargo from one ship to another in space...
Certainly specialist equipment, but I assume something of this sort would be
required on many cargo ships, for loading/unloading at orbital starports and
for shuttle/main ship transfers, which would mean the equipment and
necessary skills would be available within the merchant community.

>a well armed starship...
The costs of space combat have already been widely discussed. Recognising
the relative costs of repairs, my Traveller players would think carefully
about going into a fight, even against a smaller ship, where there was
significant chance of being damaged. So if they were the pirates, they would
be cautious. If they were the trader being attacked, then they might well
hand over their cargo rather than have their ship damaged - it's an
interesting compromise as to which position is stronger.

>the ability to crack the encrypted manifest and lineage...
As noted above, hackers will probably be as common (if not more so) in the
Imperium than in our current Terran society. Also, as noted, there are
alternative methods of gaining the information.

>the skills to forge new documents...
Also not an uncommon skill among characters.

>a willing buyer...
There is almost *always* a buyer, and the lower the value of the goods, the
easier it is usually to dispose of them. So that cargo of 20 tons of Groats
will probably sell better than, say, the equivalent of the Mona Lisa - you
wouldn't dream of stealing the latter unless you already had the buyer set
up, in which case you know precisely what your profit margin is.

>You gotta be organized...
Agreed. Very organised, with a slick crew who work fast as a team (that
rules out most adventurers! :-) )

>You gotta have the backing of a government, corporation or crime syndicate.
The former is the Vargr position; the corps have their own privateering, but
this would tend to be knocking out competitors rather than just stealing
their cargos; the latter is a good way to ensure you have all the necessary
skills noted by Glenn above.

>You'll probably have to break the lot, and sell it in small parts. (More
>travel. more time. time=money. ergo, less money.)

Nope. You accumulate goods at your pirate base (i.e. depot) until you can
farm them out, in bulk, to selected buyers. This allows you to keep stuff
until the heat has died down, gives you time to select the best buyer, is
probably required time to allow forging of the paperwork, etc.

>What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 10% of
>that is how much? Less cost of transport? Less food and supplies for the
>ship's crew? Less time lost in travel, searching for a buyer? What
>exactly is the profit margin? Is that profit worth putting your armed
>starship at risk in a battle?

The profit margin might at first appear doubtful on most cargos, but then as
noted above, the only surviving non-corporate pirates in the Imperium are
going to have to be damned good at their job; they will *have* to know
exactly what cargos to take, and which ships not to touch (e.g. because
they're more heavily armed than they appear).

Going back to the profit margin, I think it's important to note that your
Cr1,000 or Cr4,000 per ton shipping cost might be only a tiny fraction of
the actual *value* of the cargo if bought or sold outright. Looking back to
the Classic Traveller cargo list (or using the rules in the BITS product 101
Cargos) you can see that a mere 1% cut of some shipments would still make a
healthy profit for the pirate. By definition, the shipment wouldn't be going
in the starship at such a high cost, if it wasn't actually worth
considerably more when sold at the other end of its journey; that sale price
has to include a cut for the retailer, the shipment costs, all customs and
taxes, the original production and packaging costs, etc., so any starship
shipment must be worth at least twice the standard freight cost to make it
worthwhile shipping...

>If it's more profitable for an individual to make a living honestly, (or
>dishonestly in easier ways :) ) I don't see why there would be piracy.

Again, I'd cite real life as an example. Taking purely those people I know
personally (so as not to offend anyone by appearing to make
generalisations), there are plenty of people who do dangerous or illegal
things for the 'hell of it', because they were brought up that way, because
they get a buzz out of it, or because they just hate the idea of making
their living by doing a 'proper' job. There will be plenty of such people
available in a Traveller universe, who won't bother to sit down with an
accountant and a calculator to do all the sums before turning to illicit
work (of which piracy is only one example).

>No, it's always an issue when trying to find a buyer. No reputable buyer
>would buy a cargo that wasn't intended for them (ie exactly what they
>ordered, from their supplier), and has the correct documents attached.
>They could get in *big* trouble.

Again, in today's world, fencing of stolen goods (even where it's absolutely
bloody obvious they're stolen) is commonplace. Scams involving buying goods,
selling them fast and then disappearing before you have to pay the invoices
from the original suppliers is just another example.

In summary, you have to be a bright bunch to be *successful* pirates, but
that doesn't prevent others from trying their hand at the game. No doubt the
majority of piracy 'random encounters' mentioned in the Traveller rules
apply to the latter situation - the PCs might just be unlucky to encounter
such an incompetent pirate group in the one or two attacks they make before
being hit by the INFDTKFSOSOOIP (Imperial Naval Forces Dedicated To Kicking
Five Sorts Of **** Out Of Incompetent Pirates). :-)

Andy

P.S. It's worth remembering that in my games I play the 100 diameter limit
from Mr. Sun, and this often far exceeds the distance to Mr. Inhabitable
Planet, meaning that Mr. Starship may have to spend several days in Mr. Real
Space heading into and out of the planetary system. This, naturally,
provides far greater opportunities for catching Mr. Victim without having
Mr. System Patrol close at hand at spoil one's fun.

P.P.S. Robert - loved Sunbeard's diary! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 03:39:03 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [T97#2058] 4DOS and Take Command

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:28:06 -0500, "Jory M. Earl"
> <j-man@iname.com> wrote:
> 
> >I use 4DOS and Take Command for Win95, and I highly reccommend them.
> 
> I don't.  "Highly" is too inadequate a word for my opinion of
> them.
> 
> I've beta-tested 4DOS and Take Command for about a year now, and
> I've been a user since version 3.00.  The most recent release is
> 6.00.  There have been a fair number of dot versions.
> 
> I have a tagline for my QWK reader, which I reproduce here, which
> matches my opinion of 4DOS and Take Command:
> 
> 4DOS - without it, your PC is broken.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

I originally used NDOS, then switched to 4DOS because NDOS and Windows
95 did not get along.

I NEED my aliases when I am in DOS, so I decided to try out 4DOS 3.xx. 
I recently grabbed 6.55(?) about 3 months ago.  I have Take Commadn
installed as well, although I hardly use it for anything with 4DOS
installed.  

The only reason I'll use Take Command is that it has that handy screen
buffer.  Too bad that feature isn't supported in DOS shell.
- -- 

                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2065
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2066



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
SolRim:0
Re: Timecheck for DGP
Re: That three-letter word
Re: CSC Website Fixed
Re: Purpose of Piracy
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Selling stolen cargo
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Re: Cost of piracy suppressing
Re: TImecheck for DGP
100-Diameter Limit
Re: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: Of pirates and lurking
Re: Cost of piracy suppression

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 19:44:23 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

On 1997-11-06 15:51, David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote the 
following:

>>I've noticed a tendency towards faulty analogy. Piracy cannot be
>>compared to street crime, transit crime, or mugging.
>
>Well, I think the fault is that piracy _is_ just another crime
>that is, wrongly, being singled out for elimination.  The fact
>is that there are things that hold true for criminal activity
>from organized crime down to street crime and for muggers
>trying to get someone one the street back in time to highway
>robbery.

My agenda is not to eliminate the possibility of piracy.

I just don't believe it will be at all common (about as common as large 
bank heists). And I don't believe that an independant pirate will be very 
successful, again about as successful as there are successful large bank 
heists. The successful ones will become very famous, much like that 
British Great Train Robber fella currently living in Brazil.

>>The average merchant vessel is valued in the tens of *Mega*Credits.
>>That's a bucketload of cash for most citizens. If even _one_ of these
>>things is stolen, it *is* a big deal.
>
>Well, it is not clear that piracy takes ships or cargo (and that
>has been debated already).  In any case, the costs are not
>bourne by average joes, but either by corps, the banks who
>the owner will default to, or insurance.  They will be real
>keen in weighing taxes versus losses.  To  the average
>person in the Imperium I doubt piracy will be the crime
>that bother them the most and to a corp it will be one
>of a number of sources of losses.

They will also be keen on not encouraging this sort of crime, which can 
get real expensive real fast. I hate the way it's always compared to car 
robbery or the like. It's *not* the same.

>>It's a major bank heist. The local
>>authorities (representing the Imperium) *will* take notice. It's not a
>>mugging, or a transit crime.
>
>Well, we don't take 1% of our military budget and divert
>it to eliminating bank robbery either.  At that rate
>you could have a guy behind a bullet proof shield ready
>to shoot any bank robber.

That point has been argued a lot. We disagree on it. I don't believe 1% 
is needed. The reason why we don't divert that much to preventing bank 
robbery, is because that much isn't needed! It's inherently risky and 
difficult to rob a bank of a large amount of cash without getting caught.

It takes a very small amout of prevention by using resources already "out 
there", without diverting a whack of cash. But, you disagree that every 
system with trade and/or a starport will have patrols of small vessels 
for military reasons so there's no point in arguing on this further.

>>If pirates instead choose to steal cargo (assuming they are able to
>>disable a vessel very quickly and transfer the cargo -- a very shaky
>>assumption, imho) then there is the problem of "fencing" the cargo.
>
>Well, it is no more difficult than fencing today or that smugglers,
>etc. will have to do.  (In fact, that is why smugglers are good
>to engage in piracy, they already have contacts to fence goods
>and they already have a reason to arm their ships to stop rival
>smugglers from taking their stuff).

Ah, but it *is* more difficult! Most modern fences deal in consumer 
products the public wants, in a local area. The sheer vastness of the 
Imperium means that there are several times as many markets. And many 
cargos aren't easy-to-sell consumer items, but specialized 
pharmaceuticals, information, raw materials, custom manufactured items...

Smugglers *know* what their buyer wants, and try to procure it. A pirate 
has to have foreknowledge of what its target is carrying, as well as 
knowledge of what its contacts want to sell. That foreknowledge is very 
difficult to come by...

>>And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
>>information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
>
>This falls under the heading of things you can assume if you
>want to make piracy harder.  Even if you want to assume it,
>you still have the fact that work around will exist and smuggling
>is also canon.

Why wouldn't the Imperium use the latest technology to track the trade of 
goods, especially with the information and travel barriers inherent in 
interstellar travel? Even now, on earth, cargo manifests are very 
specific for goods crossing borders. You have to know where the stuff 
comes from, and what route it took.

What if there were an infestation of rabbits on Rhylanor? A bad batch of 
pharmaceuticals? Defective grapple-grommits? How do you find out where it 
came from? We're talking trade between _worlds_ here. Self contained 
ecosystems. It's imperative to trace the transfer of goods!

Look -- I'm not one of those who says that piracy *cannot* exist. I just 
believe that it is very risky, and nearly impossible to be profitable for 
the lone individual without outside support. If the average smuggler 
decides to take up piracy, he will find himself out of business quite 
quickly...


- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:18:40 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: SolRim:0

To everyone who has sent mail over the past week regarding the Solomani Rim
/ MMT project.

I've been on holiday interstate for the past few days, and have only just
returned.  I'll sort through my mail this weekend and get back to you all.

Thanx,


Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
				
pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:26 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Timecheck for DGP

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) writes:

> >I've searched this year's worth of TMLs and have not found anything to
> >indicate that DGP is doing _anything_, or they have any prospect of doing
> >_anything_. Not a peep about any new sci-fi campaign, and, as of yet, no
> >sign of any release.
> 
> (To: Jo Grant)
> I've been part of a group of kibbitzers for DGPs new RPG for some time but
> haven't had the time to followup lately. As far as I could see Roger had it
> pretty well thought out but I've only seen abstracts of the system and am
> also bound to shut my mouth on specifics. Maybe this isn't quite enough to
> make you eat your words but perhaps you should start preparing your
> tastebuds for some verbal diet in the future ;)

Maybe, tho' I kibbitzed for a year or so 1995-96 for DGP's new RPGs, 
and hence I'm not holding my breath.  (I also expect records of my 
contribution to have been lost in the mists of time... sigh.)

OTOH, I'm not keen on firms rushing out a defective product.  If I 
see a DGP game, I'll look at it with mild interest.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:55:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

In mail you write:

> Well, of course this is something that is hard to pin down.  Do
> they go in gangs because of pirmate genetics?  Or because a group
> of people can get what they want from individuals?  I guess
> I'm mostly saying is that it should be treated evenhandedly.
> One shouldn't look at a human group and say they formed because
> they decided to and look at a Vargr group and say they are a
> "pack" because they are evolved from "dogs".  If everyone
> in the Imperium, except Vargr, keep noticing they act like
> wolves, then everyone, except humans, should keep noting
> they act like chimps.  (And for every "Vargr/dog" joke
> that a human makes another race should be making a
> "human/chimp" joke.)

You mean like the ones about "Look! Grooming behavior!" (old Anthro
joke :-)

Seriously, folks who *are* familair with non-human primate behavior
*do* make jokes about some of our "cultural" behavior that looks to
match up.  So aliens will too.

If I remembered more of the anthro stuff, or knew someone studying it,
I'd come up with some jokes for the list.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:45:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CSC Website Fixed

In mail you write:

>> I've got a collection of computer hardware that covers several TLs!
>
> Mine goes from CPM (with 10.5" drives) to this laptop I'm typing on, and
> includes 2 macs (classic & an upgraded 512), 2 apple ][ class machines, an
> apple //gs, an amiga 500, an accellerated amiga 2000, an 8088 laptop, an
> 80286 laptop, a 133 pentium laptop, a 486dx4 tower, a palm pilot, a
> TRS80-100, a sega game system, and an atari 2600.  My basement is a museum,
> also called the home of donated computers :-)
>
> What tech levels does the basement span?

Not sure. I live in an apartment. Back when I last lived in a house, my
collection included an IBM 2311 disk drive. That's a HD for an IBM 360.
Cabinet the size of a washing machine, 14 "cake tin" removable media,
runs on 220 3-phase (actually an individual drive only uses one phase),
*hydraulic* head actuators. Mine went into service in 1965.

I still have two disk packs. I also have a core memory plane (128bytes
of RAM!).

The stuff that works is a bunch of TRS-60 gear, a 1977 vintage 8080
system, a 6800 system, a bunch of PC clones (and even some *real* IBM
PCs), an Apple clone, and the Mac.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:53:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Purpose of Piracy

Steven Hudson writes:
>  Why not just wait and see if you ever get an opportunity safe
>enough for your level of desperation/carelessness, and take the
>cargo if you must, or the whole d#@n ship if you can? The one
>is a windfall to enable you to make some headway on your payments,
>and the other is the gift of extreme wealth beyond most wants.

This requires that a would-be pirate can routinely do legitimate business
at a starport without giving the authorities enough information to
identify him and track him down after the event. Do you really think
that is a reasonable assumption?
 
(Oh, and stealing a starship requires that you can disguise it or its
component parts enough that it/they can't be identified later. Another
very iffy assumption, IMO.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:44:16 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

David P. Summers wrote;

[snip]
>As the species evolves, females will continue to gain
>benefits (protection in child birth, help from the other
>women he has, etc.) which will remain as the species
>evolve (though they will switch to military/political
>benefits).  They thus have about as much to gain from
>remaining committed to a male as a human female, though
>they are going to be choosier about entering into marraige
>than the males since if one finds their mate lacking, males
>can marry additional females while the females are committed
>to the one male they chose at first.
[snip]

	Actually, the females in the marriage might be the more closely
bonded ones, with the male kept around for social advantages ("our male is
bigger/meaner than yours"), dealing with other annoying bunches of females
("their male just marked a tree ON YOUR LAND!  YOUR HONOUR IS AT STAKE!
AGRESS!  AGRESS!  AGRESS!  Wait!  Come back!  They're over that way!  Good
luck!  <aside>  That'll teach those no-good [cattiness deleted]"), and
producing more females so that the clan's business interests can be
adequately staffed.

	The more I think about it, the more I think Aslan society is almost
like Victorian society; one gender runs everything, with the other gender
strictly limited to specific roles (reproduction, cooking, and being
displayed on one's arm at social events) and, although put on a pedestal
and 'revered', are more or less kept out of it.

	Yup, I think that the Aslans are a matriarchy.  A pretty
passive-aggressive one, but a full-blown females-run-everything and the
males are just kept around as political figureheads, guard dogs, and
reproductive assets.

	In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
on the part of the females!  After all, male Aslan are not good things to
have around if they're trying to build a civilization...  so by whatever
means, they have just enough males to keep things going and meet military
requirements, while raising three times as many of the productive and
intelligent females.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:46:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Selling stolen cargo

Andy Lilly writes:
>>Cargo manifests are *not* public knowledge. There's no way to know which
>>cargos are going where, on what vessel, and how to identify that vessel,
>>without covertly obtained information.
> 
>Given what goes on nowadays on Terra, and the ease with which one can
>acquire equivalent information, legally or illegally, I think that's a
>pretty bold statement to make!

Agreed. That a pirate would often be able to get copies of cargo manifests
is a reasonable assumption.

>>a broker able to know where a cargo could be sold...
>
>Just the sort of skills that an ex-merchant, turned pirate would have
>anyway, or could easily recruit at any starport if he paid well enough.

I think a reasonable assumption would be that a pirate would know where
to sell a stolen cargo, but that he would not usually get more than the
percentage robbers commonly get today (10-20% if the crime authors I've
read are right).

>Nope. You accumulate goods at your pirate base (i.e. depot) until you can
>farm them out, in bulk, to selected buyers. This allows you to keep stuff
>until the heat has died down, gives you time to select the best buyer, is
>probably required time to allow forging of the paperwork, etc.

Keep in mind that a 600 T armed ship will need to earn about 8 million
credits per year to keep in the black. Every additional jump the ship
has to make in order to fence the stuff costs it another 320,000 Cr.
(Not all in actual expenses; some of it in lost revenue).
 
>>What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 10% of
>>that is how much? Less cost of transport? Less food and supplies for the
>>ship's crew? Less time lost in travel, searching for a buyer? What
>>exactly is the profit margin? Is that profit worth putting your armed
>>starship at risk in a battle?
> 
>The profit margin might at first appear doubtful on most cargos, but then as
>noted above, the only surviving non-corporate pirates in the Imperium are
>going to have to be damned good at their job; they will *have* to know
>exactly what cargos to take, and which ships not to touch (e.g. because
>they're more heavily armed than they appear).

That's the big problem right there. Let's say the pirate lurks about in a
big starport waiting for the right cargo to come along. Let's ignore the
risk that the authorities will notice that he is idling about and start
wondering why he is wasting his time doing nothing. First off, we have
the loss of revenue from sitting idle until he marks the perfect victim.
Can we agree that attacking the prospective victim on its way out is a
bad idea? If its a big starport then the world will have defenses; and
if the victim is outside the 10 diameter limit, then it has the option
of jumping to avoid capture -- something that you certainly can't be SURE
he won't do. So you jump to the destination system. Now, I'm going to
assume that there is a minimum of one patrol vessel in the target system.
Even if you disagree with permanent patrols, canonically there are patrols
jumping back and forth to the backwater systems. Certainly the pirate 
cannot assume that there won't be a patrol in the system when he arrives.
OK, if you get your information sufficiently far in advance and know the
victim's schedule you have the option of jumping before him and be
absolutely certain that you get there ahead of him. Since the margin of
error for jumps, timewise, is about a day each way, you risk arriving
four days ahead of your victim (your jump took 6 days and his took 8).
You now have the option of remaining at the jump limit for up to 4 days,
which gives the patrol both the time and the incentive to check you out,
or going down to the starport, which involves the risk of a thorough
check by the starport authorities. I'll accept that you can fool such
an inspection, but do you really think the authorities won't get enough
information about your ship to identify it later?

The alternative is to aim to hit the target system at the same time as the
victim. That means your risk getting there any time from 2 days early till
2 days late. The odds that you will arrive silmutaneously are not good.

But say that you do arrive at roughly the same time as your victim. Either
there will be a patrol vessel stationed a some specific spot at the 100
diameter limit, in which case your victim will aim for that spot and you
will have to perform your piracy under the guns of the patrol; or there
will not be such a picket, in which case you have to guess at what part
of the 100 diameter limit 'shell' that your victim aimed for (something
that you _won't_ be able to get beforehand, since a ship carrying an
extra valuable cargo will be careful not to compute that until they are
approaching the jump limit). If your victim arrives at some distance from
you, the captain (knowing what a valuable cargo he is carrying) will have
ample time to request an escort from the patrol vessel in orbit around the
world.

This is something I've tried to get the pro-pirate side to address
several times. A DETAILED description of a workable _modus operandi_ for
the succesful pirate that allows him to make a living. So far all I've
seen are very general statements about attacking targets of opportunity,
something that requires either that targets of opportunity appear often
enough that a pirate can make a living capturing them or that the pirate
can make a living in between looking for targets of opportunity. As far
as I can judge, neither assumption is warranted.

But I'm ready to be convinced if you can come up with something a bit
more well-founded than 'Can too!'.

BTW. all the above assumes that the cargo is not sufficiently valuable that
your victim (or your victim's insurance agent) hires an escort (and that
the cargo's owner dosen't send it by a better armed ship).

>P.S. It's worth remembering that in my games I play the 100 diameter limit
>from Mr. Sun, and this often far exceeds the distance to Mr. Inhabitable
>Planet, meaning that Mr. Starship may have to spend several days in Mr. Real
>Space heading into and out of the planetary system. This, naturally,
>provides far greater opportunities for catching Mr. Victim without having
>Mr. System Patrol close at hand at spoil one's fun.

Not really. It gives Mr. Pirate the problem of catching Mr. Victim before
he gets more than 10 diameters from the planet, when Mr. Pirate has to come
in several 100 diameters from the planet. (As mentioned above, pursuing Mr.
Victim from the starport involves staying at the starport for a time, 
which involves the authorities having the ship equivalent of your
fingerprints (and they propably have your fingerprints too). This is
not conductive to living long and prospering as a pirate.)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:13:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> writes:
>Relative value has a lot of play here.  Yes, we are talking about 30 - 70 MCr
>ships.  However, we are discussing them in the reference of a society where
>14-18 MCr ships are common (almost any in-system shuttle or lauch you care
>to name), 21 MCr ships are given away (Scouts), and 30 -70 MCr ships are only
>viable on the fringe markets of the Imperium.  The real markets use 25,000
>dTon ships, and I don't even have a price there - easily a factor of 10 to 20
>times the target vessels we see here.  Carjacking may not be appropriate -
>Truck jacking would be. 

Truck jacking would only be appropiate if truck could teleport from just
outside one city limit to just outside the destination city limit.

But that was btw. What I really wanted to ask was don't you think that IF
the argument of relative value is valid, then it ought to apply to both
sides of the situation? If relative values apply don't it apply to the
cost of anti-pirate activity too?

>The Imperium has many, many other things to worry about besides small ship
>conflicts, or events happening to traders with no clout.

I've seen this claim before, and I've asked for a few examples of those
many, many other things the Imperium -- no, sorry, I mean the Imperial
Navy specifically -- has to worry about besides piracy. What does the
Imperial Navy do in peacetime that dosen't leave them enough assets left
over to do what the Royal Navy found considerable assets to do while
_even_ while involved in a vicious life-and-death struggle with France?

>This is where I think we have a basic disagreement.  I think piracy is
>possible.  I don't think it is common.  I would imagine there are *maybe*
>1 or 2 serious pirates per sector.  (Let me be clear - SECTOR, not subsector)

I would think that that would insure that piracy recieved a disproportional
amount of news coverage...

>Raw materials I might agree with. Finished goods, I don't. There is a market
>for everything.

Agreed. But not at anything near the true value of the goods.

>>No, it's always an issue when trying to find a buyer. No reputable buyer
> 
>There's a sudden lack of _dis_-reputable (or dishonest) buyers? Bad news.

No lack of disreputable buyers. But there will be a dearth of dishonest
buyers willing to pay top credit for goods of dubious origin.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:29:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppressing

David P. Summers writes:
>Well, we don't take 1% of our military budget and divert
>it to eliminating bank robbery either.  At that rate
>you could have a guy behind a bullet proof shield ready
>to shoot any bank robber.

That is partly because you have a law forbidding your military from
performing law enforcement and partly because of what we in Denmark
call "account thinking" -- the people who could do something don't
do it because it is not what their money is allocated to them to do.
It is 'somebody else's problem'.

But you do use some percentage of your military budget on trying to
prevent smuggling and piracy (your Coast Guard). It's just so much
more difficult to patrol the coast of the US with ships than it is
to patrol planets with starships in Traveller.
 
>>And the cargo will likely have some sort of way of being traced. Source
>>information encrypted in the cargo containers, embedded microchips, etc.
> 
>This falls under the heading of things you can assume if you
>want to make piracy harder.

Or if you want your Traveller universe to resemble a logical extrapolation
of the Real Universe of today.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:37:48 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: TImecheck for DGP

Anders Backman writes:
>I've been part of a group of kibbitzers for DGPs new RPG for some time
So are many on the list. Roger is fond of preying on people from the list.

>[I] am also bound to shut my mouth on specifics.
This is a typical move of Rogers. By binding people to silence he instils
an air amongs his kibbitzers that they are on to something special. It
restricts the amount of public discussion and provides an excellent cover
for his continued lack of production.

>but perhaps you should start preparing your
>tastebuds for some verbal diet in the future ;)

Nothing would please me more. I'd really like to see some of the stuff done
by the _real_ DGP back and available. I've promised to buy anything and
everything Roger produces as penitence for my lack of faith. IF he ever
produces ANYTHING.

However the way you hint at great things just around the corner is also
pure Roger and I've heard to for many, many years now. If I were a betting
man, the odds on Roger ever doing ANYTHING are so long as to be
inconsequential.

Besides, why do you need to defend him? You admit you are out of the loop.
Where is Roger himself? Why doesn't HE post to the list?

Jo

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 13:46:58 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: 100-Diameter Limit

>P.S. It's worth remembering that in my games I play the 100 diameter limit
>from Mr. Sun, and this often far exceeds the distance to Mr. Inhabitable
>Planet, 

I do likewise.  Makes inhabitable planets around red giant stars definate
backwaters: a 1-2G merchant requires a couple of weeks of real-space transit
time!

For the record, Metator draws the 100-diameter limit for the star on the
system map.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:22:27 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger

>A similar situation obtains with respect to AI and Macrocosm, two
>non-Traveller-related products for which he also painted glowing
>pictures, but which, to this day, are still as much vaporware as
>Windows for Toaster-ovens.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

As Windows CE is out the door and spotted in realworld(tm) does this imply
we'll get AI and Macrocosm real soon now ?                             ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:16:26 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

>I should add that there are other irrational numbers for which arbitrary
>sequences of digits will show up somewhere (I think), but I'm sure there's
>no proof one way or another what category pi is in.
>
>However, even if pi does have all arbitrary sequences in it, in "Contact"
>the circle showed up very early (relatively speaking) in pi - well before
>you would expect it due to random chance.
>
>Bruce

As a long string of 5s is as likely as the same length of any other
sequence of digits and that the location in the decimal progression is as
likeley as any other you cannot say anything about probable/improbable
there. Also note that as the decimal progression of any irrational
(rational as well for that matter) number is infinite any given place in
the progression will have to be close to the beginning (infinitely close to
the start).

All irrational numbers share the behaviour of having arbitrary sequences of
digits showing up.



If I'm splitting hairs or kicking in open doors or beating an ex-horse I
beg my forgiveness.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:25:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Of pirates and lurking

David P. Summers writes:

>Also, not everyone believes that pirates "lurk".  There is a school that
>maintains that they are ships engaged in other business (legit and illegit)
>and only take targets that present themselves, much like how muggers in
>the USA work.

And also:
>>4) Pirates are lightly armed and steal cargo.  Why they would not
>>   normally steal an entire ship, I am not sure.
> 
>c) The greater cost and loss of people makes the authorities
>more motivated to catch you.

Ah, what the hell... Have this one on me, David. I'll catch you the next
time...
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
- - "You don't like the Goths?"
- -  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
- -  "Persecution?"
- -  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
- -  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
- -  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"

                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

David P. Summers writes:
>Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:06:48 -0800, Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>>Well, you _know_ I don't agree that you can use an already exisiting
>>>force without diminishing the effectiveness of that force for
>>>its primary (military) use.
> 
>As to armed ships.  The Imperium _does_ allowed merchants
>to be armed on they often are.  Otherwise you wouldn't
>see all those armed merchant designs in CT and MT source
>books and all merchants wouldn't automatically come with
>hardpoints waiting for weapons.

Indeed. And that reduces the number of potential victims for a pirate.
 
>>but the level of resources possessed is so large compared to
>>the area required to patrol that they could without materially affecting
>>their striking power (1% is not a major difference to their fleet makeup.
>>I know you argue that just because they have the capability, they will not
>>choose to use it, but given the political pressure, it seems like the
>>Imperium would be war torn if it did not.)
> 
>Well, I've said before large organization don't just blow away 1% of their
>resources like that.

And neither does the Imperial Navy "blow" any amount of their resources by
using their ships. They get a certain amount of money each year. If the
setup is anything like the institutions here in Denmark, any part of
their budget that they don't use is simply lost (and their next year's
budget propably cut). I've been told that things are the same way in the
USA. And any other bureaucracy that I've ever heard of.

>The US military cares very much if congress were to cut their budget 1%.

Sure would. So what do they do about it? Use less money than their budget
allows? In Denmark the army has a tendency to do a _lot_ of driving
around with their tanks and trucks in december. The reason? They have to
use up all their gasoline (or do I mean petrol?) before New Year's Day.

>Yeah, but it is, in fact, reasonable that pirates will concentrate on
>taking cargoes (less determined oppostion, etc. this has been debated
>and look at the list archive for discussion).  One has to loose a lot
>of cargoes to justify multiple patrol ships at every world that has
>traffic in every system.
 
>>>   I'm not sure what the point in
>>>reasserting your view as if it were fact is, unless you either want
>>>me to just give in because you keep raising it or you somehow
>>>expect that I will be willing for the both of us to simply
>>>repeat the points we didn't agree on before.
> 
>>He is using the exact same technique you are.  Both of you assert your
>>views as if they are fact, when in reality, they are both based on rather
>>large chains of assumption about the rules, the politics, and other
>>details.
> 
>Well, to.  I _don't_ take point that we both know we disagree
>on, and have beaten into the ground several times already,
>and baldly assert them to be true in a reply to posts
>on other points.

Let me quote from about 20 lines above in your very same posting:

"Yeah, but it is, in fact, reasonable that pirates will concentrate on
taking cargoes (less determined oppostion, etc. this has been debated
>and look at the list archive for discussion)."

If you can see a difference between that statement and to take something
that we both know we disagree on, and have beaten into the ground several
times already, and baldly assert them to be true in a reply to posts on
another point, then you are a far more subtle man than I am.

>Well, we both have numerical analysis.  The point as you note,
>are his assumptions and mine are different.

But not the whole point. As a matter of fact, there are several different
kinds of disagreements, and you keep mixing them up. There is the basic
difference of opinion, where both opinions are reasonable. That is the
kind you talk about all the time, but precious few of our disagreements
are of that kind, and I try to avoid responding to those, except when
you fail to make clear that whatever bald statement you present as true
is actually based on a particular set of assumptions. I won't claim that
I have never inadvertently responded to something like that, but I try
not to. The other kind are the disagreements when one opinion is very
much more unlikely than the other or, worse yet, is inconsistent or
self-referential. Those are the kind that really sets me off, and if
you keep posting them, I'll propably keep responding to them.

>>Both of your respond whenever this thread comes up, each hoping to win by
>>exhaustion

Not in my case. I have long ago given up trying to convince David, and I
wouldn't consider it a victory if he stopped posting from sheer exhaustion.
(Now, if I could actually convince him...) It just bugs the hell out of me
when he baldly states a contested opinion as an uncontested truth. There's
always the chance that some unfortunate neophyte will believe him... ;-)

And I note that I'm not the only one that still responds to David. I've
been unable to keep up with my e-mail, but I note that most of his most
recent batch of assertations have been dealt with by others. How many
of you believes that your reply will convince David?

>Wrong.  This particular message resulted from Hans jumping
>in on a reply that was wrapping up a discussion with someone
>other than Hans and bringing up old points.  Now you
>have jumped into my reply to Hans. 

"Jumping in". Now there's a value-loaded expression if ever I saw one.
All I can say is that if someone posts to the list, then I consider the
post aimed just as much at me as at any other reciepient of the net. If
you want private discussions I suggest that private e-mail would be
more appropiate. If you keep posting things I disagree strongly with
to the list, then I will propably resond, and I don't feel the least
bit guilty about it.

"Jumping in", indeed!! Hmpff!

>>See if the other parties, like me, in this debate do the same, once the two
>>of you stop.

From the amount of other people still posting on the subject it appears that
there is still some meat on the bone. My time is running out, but next week
I'll have a few CT descriptions of various patrol ships that I've designed
to figure out just what a good patrol ship could do and would cost. They
may be of use to others.
 
>I wish to be able reply to someone on one of the few points that have not
>been beaten to death, or which has thing that two of use haven't resolved,
>or simply explainto someone why I have a certain postion without having to
>redebate every point on the thread with Hans.

On most of the subjects that you and I have beaten to death, you have
posted an initial statement with which I have disagreed. I have responded
with an objection to which you have responded with what I regard as an
equally flawed reply. Eventually you have come to a point where you have
either ignored a posting or claimed that it boiled down to a mere
difference of opinion, something that I usually don't agree with you
about. That isn't resolving the question and it certainly dosen't entitle
you to repost your original statement as if it was a fact without getting
jumped on again, to use your charming terminology.

>>If you are having fun with it, then by all means go ahead and continue - I
>>certainly am not the list cop

Well, every so often something new does occur. For instance, the point that
the Imperial Navy would have an interest over and above just doing their
duty in using anti-piracy patrols to boost their budget hadn't occurred to
me before.
 
>They why are you jumping into an exchange between Hans and
>me and lecturing me on how to post?

At a guess, because he disagreed with something you baldly asserted as true.
 
BTW. in the interest of not escalating this thing out of control, I have
refrained from providing concreted examples of things you regard as
adequately dealt with and I regard as still unresolved, but if you
require me to, I will be happy to supply a few, either public or by
e-mail. I'm perfectly willing to back up anything I've baldly asserted as
the truth in this posting.

Or you can just go on as before and I will point them out as you bring them
up yet again... ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2066
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2067



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

(LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Transponders
Re: 100-Diameter Limit
Re: That three-letter word
Alcos Delivery Van (TL15)
Beirish Delivery Van (TL12)
Noraq Delivery Van (TL11)
Judeksow Speeder (TL15)
Bilandian Fonts
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
[Off Topic] Mac Query
Assiniboia
Re: Death from ...
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Selling stolen cargo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:27:00 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

>>This, however, assumes a 100% accurate sensor fix and
>>a 100% accurate laser system.
>>Can some kind and/or knowledgeable soul give me some ideas on these
>>numbers?  (And if you can, will you?  Please?)

>Laser accuracy is actually nearly perfect for these purposes. Even a TL-8
>system can have an accuracy of 4 nanoradians or so, which means an error
>circle with area A=3D(5*10^-9  * R)^2 =3D 25m2 * (range/1,000,000km)^2,=
 which is
>smaller than other error sources - and that's for existing TL-8 systems;
>i would expect traveller TL error boxes to be a hundred times smaller.

Given that lasers more or less cannot miss due to errors in aiming the beam
where one wants it you can still miss due to evasion of the target and
lightlag. Here's some calculations (this is a rehash previously posted by
me but as it seems to have gone totally unnoticed Ill repost it);=A8



I'm in the process of revamping my space combat system and would like some
input on certain assumtions. I don't use grav focussed in my current system =
but
I will still discuss them here.

Assumtion 1:
The difficulty in hitting a ship with a laser is not due to random spread of
beams while firing but rather timelag from when you get the sensordata and t=
he
time the beam/pulse arrives. This means that if a ship is accelerating strai=
ght
with no variance in accleration value nor direction a shot always hits as lo=
ng
as it is within sensor resolving range. This means that what a ship defends
with is it's evasive acceleration and in order for such maneuvering to be
effective it has to accelerate a distance at least as long as the ships radi=
us.
(Note that all (I hope) equations follow mathematical operator precedence to
avoid unneccessary parenthesis.)

The formula for accelerated distance is:
(1) s =3D at^2/2
a =3D acceleration in m/s^2, 1G =3D 9.81 m/s^2

The timelag for sensor/beamtravel is target to sensor and back again with
lightspeed. We need to make two measurements to get a velocity value and thr=
ee
for acceleration value of the target. Assume we need to know the location,
velocity and acceleration of the target, this gives us:
(2) t =3D 6R/c where
R =3D range to target, c =3D 3E8 m/s (slightly less actually, I know)

The distance the target needs to accelerate to be effective is about a ships
radius which if assuming the ship is a cube is aproximately:
(3) r =3D v^(1/3)/2
v =3D ships volume in m^3

Now, plug (2) into (1) gives us:
(4) s =3D a(6R/c)^2/2 which becomes s =3D a18R^2/c^2

The range at which a certain shipsize with a certain evasion acceleration ge=
ts
effective we'll find by assuming (4) equals (3):
(5) v^(1/3)/2 =3D a18R^2/c^2

Shuffle the terms about to get R as a function of the other terms:
(6) R =3D (c^2*v^(1/3)/(36a))^(1/2) which looks better like:
(6) R =3D c(v^(1/3)/(36a))^(1/2)

Now, plug some numbers into (6) to see what we get. Assume a type S scout wh=
ich
in your universe is 1400 m^3 and definately not a sphere but we leave that
aside for now. It evades with all its acceleration of 2G. This gives us:
c =3D 3E8, v =3D 1400, a =3D 2*9.81 and from (6) R =3D 37.8 thousand=
 kilometers or
about one hex in space combat.

What does this tell us? That given the above assumtions a ship that fires on=
 a
100 dTon ship that evades with 2G will be automatically hit if the range is
less than a hex. That's OK in the current system as most space combat will b=
e
at 1 hex or more. How about an Azhanti High lightning?
According to Fighting Ships it is 60 000 dTons agility =3D 0(?) so we use 2G=
 for
our calculations. This gives us:
c =3D 3E8, v =3D 840 000, a =3D 2*9.81 and R =3D 109.6 thousand kilometers=
 or 3 hexes
or less. You cannot miss an Azhanti if it is within 3 hexes and evades at 2G=
.

I like these figures but you may not. We can handwave in the computer DM fro=
m
High Guard with this assumtion. The timelag calculation ignores the time
required to analyze sensordata in equation (2). If we assume a base time for
computation denoted p (for processing) and add this to (2)
(2b) t =3D p + 6R/c
Plug (2b) into (1) gives us:
(4b) s =3D a(p + 6R/c)^2/2 which becomes s =3D a(p^2+12pR/c+36R^2/c^2)
Equalling with (3) gives us
(5b) v^(1/3)/2 =3D a(p^2+12pR/c+36R^2/c^2)
What this leaves us is left as an exercise for the reader but basically it
works as the processing time adds a fixed range to the actual shooting range
R+ =3D pc/6 and for a 1s processing time (too long to be realistic but remem=
ber
that this is for handwaving purposes) R+ =3D 50 thousand kilometers or about=
 2
hexes.

Comments are welcome.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:33:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Transponders

Tim Connors writes:

>I thought an earlier posting gave the Imperial pop as 10 to the 16th people

If so it must have been a mistake.

>but 15 trillion is only 10 to the 13th people. If the latter number is
>correct, then some calculations on the piracy thread may not be accurate.

All my calculations have been made with the 15 trillion figure (excepting
any one where I've made decimal errors, of course ;-)

>Could someone clarify the Imperial total population, please? My own
>calculations yield a value of 1.8 times ten to the thirteenth people, but
>I am not certain of the basis for these calculations and would appreciate
>seeing a restatement of the underlying criteria.

I'm 99% sure that I have seen the 15 trillion figure somewhere in an
official publication, but the last time I tried to track down the
reference, I failed to find it. Wildstar did some calculations where
he actually summed up the populations of the individual planets and
IIRC he arrived at 16 trillion, but I forget just what source he got
the information from.

15 trillion is an average of 1.5 billion per planet, which is of the
same order of magnitude as the average you get from the world generation
system (exact figure depends on how you establish the population multiplier
for pop A worlds), so I'm going to stick to that for the moment.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:02:42 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 100-Diameter Limit

>I do likewise.  Makes inhabitable planets around red giant stars definate
>backwaters: a 1-2G merchant requires a couple of weeks of real-space transit
>time!
>
>For the record, Metator draws the 100-diameter limit for the star on the
>system map.

Can we get rid of the 100-diam limit rule. Most canon sources say its a
simplification of gravitic disturbance so I've used the gravity strength at
100 diams of a size 8 density 1 planet as a baseline but perhaps this was
not a good solution.

What about the jumpdistance disturbance is dependent on tidal force or the
gradient of gravity? This drops off as 1/r^3 which is pretty nice. Here's a
simple table comparing the various options:

Jumpdistance normalized to 100 diam canon on size 8 planet

Size    Canon   1/r     1/r^2   1/r^3
=========================================
1       0.13    0.00    0.04    0.13
2       0.25    0.02    0.13    0.25
3       0.38    0.05    0.23    0.38
4       0.50    0.13    0.35    0.50
5       0.63    0.24    0.49    0.63
6       0.75    0.42    0.65    0.75
7       0.88    0.67    0.82    0.88
8       1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00
9       1.13    1.42    1.19    1.13
10      1.25    1.95    1.40    1.25

The 1/r^3 rule give us the same jumpranges as canon. They main advantage is
that we can now calculate the jumprange for other densities of planets as
well (multiply with D^(1/3) where D = 1.0 for normal planets). The best
advantage however is that jumpdistances for stars will be MUCH shorter than
the 100 diamters and therefore we will rarely need to bother with them
(quick now how many of you referees consider the stars diamter when
determining travel times to jump?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:13:27 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Roderick wrote:
[snip]
>        Actually, the females in the marriage might be the more closely
>bonded ones, with the male kept around for social advantages ("our male is
>bigger/meaner than yours"), dealing with other annoying bunches of females
>("their male just marked a tree ON YOUR LAND!  YOUR HONOUR IS AT STAKE!
>AGRESS!  AGRESS!  AGRESS!  Wait!  Come back!  They're over that way!  Good
>luck!  <aside>  That'll teach those no-good [cattiness deleted]"), and
>producing more females so that the clan's business interests can be
>adequately staffed.
>
>        The more I think about it, the more I think Aslan society is almost
>like Victorian society; one gender runs everything, with the other gender
>strictly limited to specific roles (reproduction, cooking, and being
>displayed on one's arm at social events) and, although put on a pedestal
>and 'revered', are more or less kept out of it.
>
>        Yup, I think that the Aslans are a matriarchy.  A pretty
>passive-aggressive one, but a full-blown females-run-everything and the
>males are just kept around as political figureheads, guard dogs, and
>reproductive assets.
>
>        In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
>on the part of the females!  After all, male Aslan are not good things to
>have around if they're trying to build a civilization...  so by whatever
>means, they have just enough males to keep things going and meet military
>requirements, while raising three times as many of the productive and
>intelligent females.

Ah, but dig a little deeper... and you'll find that it's all merely a
cunning Sayat manipulation.  Who in turn are secretly controlled by the
Hivers.  Who are themselves unwitting minions of Cth-- <squelch>

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 15:09:11 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Alcos Delivery Van (TL15)

Alcos Delivery Van (TL15)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  13.5 tonnes;  kCr 18.6
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 178 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     400 kW TL15 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 6.12 L of enriched water
(6.12 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 112 km/h; 
Range: 11171 km;  Agility: -1DM (4.2G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL15, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     24.6 kL of cargo space

Cheap and reliable, Alcos vans are a common sight on many high-tech worlds.
Little more than a simple structurecomp box with contragrav lifters and a
Fusion Plus power plant, they are the cheapest means of shuttling goods
within a city. Lack of sensors limit the basic model to use within urban
Roadgrid control areas; a radar (permitting off-grid use) adds 3kCr to the
price.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 15:10:10 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Beirish Delivery Van (TL12)

Beirish Delivery Van (TL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  13.6 tonnes;  kCr 18.9
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 178 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     2x 200 kW TL12 CI Fusion Plus power plants;  Fuel: 12.0 L of enriched
water (12.0 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 108 km/h; 
Range: 10818 km;  Agility: -1DM (4.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     24.5 kL of cargo space

Cheap and reliable, Beirish vans are a common sight on Sylea and neighbouring
worlds. Little more than a simple structurecomp box with contragrav lifters
and a pair of Cleon Industries Fusion Plus units, they are the cheapest means
of shuttling goods within a city. Lack of sensors limit the basic model to
use within urban Roadgrid control areas; a radar (permitting off-grid use)
adds 3kCr to the price.



Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 15:09:39 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Noraq Delivery Van (TL11)

Noraq Delivery Van (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  13.8 tonnes;  kCr 12.4
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 178 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     400 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 15.8 L of enriched water
(15.8 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 52 km/h; 
Range: 5213 km;  Agility: +1DM (2.0G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL11, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     25.0 kL of cargo space

Cheap and reliable, Noraq vans (or their equivalents) are a common sight on
many worlds. Little more than a simple structurecomp box with contragrav
lifters and a Fusion Plus power plant, they are the cheapest means of
shuttling goods within a city. Lack of sensors limit the basic model to use
within urban Roadgrid control areas; a radar (permitting off-grid use) adds
3kCr to the price.

Even when outdated, Noraqs are frequently used until they wear out. Many
examples can be found on Sylea and other high-tech worlds within the
fledgling Third Imperium.



Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 15:08:45 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Judeksow Speeder (TL15)

Judeksow Speeder (TL15)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.10 displacement ton open-topped needle streamlined;  896 kg;  kCr 17.7
Chassis:
     1.40 kL open-topped needle streamlined (4.2 m long x 58 cm wide x 58 cm
high);  Structure: 209 kg of structurecomp, rated for 8.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     208 kW TL15 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 3.20 L of enriched water
(3.20 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 200 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 6413 km/h; 
Range: 638806 km;  Agility: -31DM (31.8G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 external crew station;  1 external passenger
seat; Protection: front
     Grav Compensation (6G), Whole vehicle compensated
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL15, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 0.005 mm per km of range
Other:
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     62.6 L of cargo space; illuminated SmartCoat display on all unused
surface area

Raw speed. Sometimes nothing else will do. The Judeksow Speeder is built for
speed and nothing else. The ultralight structurecomp chassis is reinforced
for 8G maneuvers, while pilot and passenger are protected by 6G grav
compensators and a windscreen. Roadgrid and active radar provide electronic
assistance to the pilot. Complete SmartCoat coverage lets the Judeksow
reflect its owner's every mood. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 11:12 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Bilandian Fonts

>>Vilani Letters:
>>
>>A B D E G I K L M N P R S U Z Sh Kh

>On TravLang, we've also counted AA, II, and UU as distinct phonemes, 
>bringing the total up to 20.

Why not have a diacritic which doubles vowels, and another
diacritic which softens consonants?

So your mapping may be

A   B   D   E   G   I   K   L   M   N   P   R   S   U   Z   <-- 'plain'
AA                  II                          SH  UU  ZH  <-- with diac.

This is easy to map.  Normal font lowercase, diacriticized
font as uppercase.

>My thinking on punctuation is that it should be different enough from 
>basic letterforms that it is easy to spot and discern.

If instead they looked like characters, then the script would
probably look more alien and undecipherable, which is just
fine by me... after all, if you know the tricks then it's
easy, otherwise it's difficult.  SO: some of your PCs could
be familiar with the tricks of Bilandian -- the Vilani PCs --
and be able to read the font, while the others are in the dark.

Ooh ooh, Mistah Kottah, how about this if you want weird:
26 half-characters, which form a letter when combined.
This makes life horribly difficult for transcription, of course.
But it allows an oodle of combinations.

Or, have half-characters follow the "Tengwar" system developed by
JRR Tolkien, which may simplify things a bit (or not):

Character Map:

0	p-series character (p, b)
1	k-series character (k, g)
2	s-series character (s, z, sh, zh)
3	n-series character (n, m)
4	liquid-series char (l, r)
5	d-series character (d)

6	a-series character (a, aa)
7	e-series character (e)
8	i-series character (i, ii)
9	u-series character (u, uu)

A	consonant-unvoiced character (formal use only)
B	consonant-voiced character
C	consonant-aspirated character
D	consonant-voiced+aspirated character

E	vowel-short character (formal use only)
F	vowel-long character

G	number-tag character

The reason Tolkien did this is because he saw four basic series
for consonant sounds: unvoiced, voiced, aspirated, and voiced-aspirated.
For instance:

unvoiced	voiced		aspirated	voiced-aspirated
t		d		th		dh  (as in "the")
p		b		f		v
k		g		kh (ch?)	gh (j?)


Since the half-characters in the character map are unique, pairs
can have either half-character leading, perhaps giving some
kind of nuance in meaning.

Also, there are so many pairs with unassigned values, it may
very well be that the most common three or four Vilani words
may have their own characters.

Ok, just some brainstorms.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:09:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 04:03 AM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>>>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;
>
>Doug Berry replied:
>
>>Glenn, with your kind permission, I'm stealing this for a .sig...
>
>Flattering - but use it unattributed, please. I wouldn't want even a chance
>that anyone might read it out of context and think that I said it
>semi-seriously, or without a heavy larding of irony.

Done.

>The film really does have a disturbing problem. I came out of _Starship
>Troopers_ a bit stunned. It's as if Verhoeven set out to make a work of
>unabashed ultra-militaristic right-wing commercial, cheerfully admitting,
>"Sure, it's fascist propaganda. You got a problem with that?!"

In another forum, I'm involved in an argument about this film.  My opponent
is saying that any war movie with moral and thoughtful content is doomed to
failure.  I keep pointing out "Platoon", "All Quiet on the Western Front",
"Catch-22", and "Full Metal Jacket" to make my point.  Sad really.. at a
party the other night we managed to come up with ways to include most of
the important points Heinlein made without turning the film into a film
about lecture halls.

>I can't help being reminded of the kid in Rick Veitch's satirical comic
>"The Brat Pack" (if you happen to have read that), the mindless high school
>kid who likes to look at books on the Nazis - not because he's interested
>in knowing anything about history, but because he thinks the uniforms and
>symbols and stuff look "cool".

Haven't read the comic, but I will plead guilty to admiring the amazing
variety of uniforms the Germans had during the Third Reich.  The Imperial
Marine uniform I'm designing is a cross between Victorian British and the
Luftwaffe.  Interesting, really..

>Verhoeven's approach to making _Starship Troopers_ seems to have been: "If
>it looks cool, use it - even if it's insultingly daft." Or if it's morally
>questionable, for that matter.
>
>Just wait'll you get a load of "Psychic Gestapo Officer Doogie Hauser"...

Saw it last night at the theater's test screening (Kirsten used to work
there, so we get in for neat events.)  By halfway through, we were heckling
the film so badly it sounded like an episode of MST3K.

- --

+--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net x
x   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+
|          Embrace Fascism.          x
x       The uniforms look cool       |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:28:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

><Screams of pain and resignation from the TravLang list and the "Teach
>Yourself Vilani!" project>

You didn't like that suggestion, did you?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:02:32 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [Off Topic] Mac Query

Any of you Mac owners familiar with MacOS>7.5.3 and the desktop printing
extension? I'm having problems instaling a printer on the desktop and am
wondering if I have the wrong chooser (7.5.4)?

TIA

Apologies for the wasted bandwidth,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:22:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Assiniboia

A quick question for the list -- does anyone know if the diameter of 
Assiniboia (the gas giant Regina orbits) has been published, beyond
simply "Large Gas Giant"?

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:17:38 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Death from ...

At 08:10 PM 11/6/97 EST, you wrote:
>> "Death From Above" used to be the motto of the 44th Airborne Company
>> (Training) at Jump School.  I still have the shirt somewhere.  It's been an
>> unoffcial motto of Airborne and Air Assult forces since WWII
>
>"Death from Within!" has been the unofficial motto of army cooks
>since...oh...1927 or so...or perhaps not. : )

During the Gulf War, the Public Affairs Office of the 101st Air Assult
Division had a little fun with the "mil-speak" being used to befuddle
jounalists, and placed the following in front of their building:

"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical of
the Main Battle Area."

I'd love to that translated into Vilani...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:38:40 -0600 (CST)
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

>Tho upper and lower case differentiation does make things more readable.


This is definitely the case, especially when you are doing body text (as
opposed to headlines).

Another thing: Would the letterforms of this typeface be easy to handwrite?
One of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of imanginary typefaces
are their inefficiency of form. It's just so difficult to write in Aurabesh
(the Star Wars font) or Klingo!

Of course, I am not certain how much of this is a cultural effect -- maybe
if you grow up with it, you learn how to write the letterforms of any
language quickly.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:12:29 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Selling stolen cargo

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> mentioned, re: Cost of piracy
> suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)...
> 
> Not a rant, just a few points, worth discussing since they are, at least, on
> a slightly different aspect of the Piracy debate:

That's why I got involved!

[Snip of excellent points]

> >You'll probably have to break the lot, and sell it in small parts. (More
> >travel. more time. time=money. ergo, less money.)
> 
> Nope. You accumulate goods at your pirate base (i.e. depot) until you can
> farm them out, in bulk, to selected buyers. This allows you to keep stuff
> until the heat has died down, gives you time to select the best buyer, is
> probably required time to allow forging of the paperwork, etc.

Yep. Which presupposes you have the infrastructure to support a pirate
base.

An independant pirate wouldn't just stash the stuff on some planetoid,
if he was smart. He would use resources of some larger organization,
crime syndicate, etc...

> >What's the average cost of a ton of cargo according to the rules? 10% of
> >that is how much? Less cost of transport? Less food and supplies for the
> >ship's crew? Less time lost in travel, searching for a buyer? What
> >exactly is the profit margin? Is that profit worth putting your armed
> >starship at risk in a battle?
> 
> The profit margin might at first appear doubtful on most cargos, but then as
> noted above, the only surviving non-corporate pirates in the Imperium are
> going to have to be damned good at their job; they will *have* to know
> exactly what cargos to take, and which ships not to touch (e.g. because
> they're more heavily armed than they appear).

Agreed.

> Going back to the profit margin, I think it's important to note that your
> Cr1,000 or Cr4,000 per ton shipping cost might be only a tiny fraction of
> the actual *value* of the cargo if bought or sold outright. Looking back to
> the Classic Traveller cargo list (or using the rules in the BITS product 101
> Cargos) you can see that a mere 1% cut of some shipments would still make a
> healthy profit for the pirate. By definition, the shipment wouldn't be going
> in the starship at such a high cost, if it wasn't actually worth
> considerably more when sold at the other end of its journey; that sale price
> has to include a cut for the retailer, the shipment costs, all customs and
> taxes, the original production and packaging costs, etc., so any starship
> shipment must be worth at least twice the standard freight cost to make it
> worthwhile shipping...
> 
> >If it's more profitable for an individual to make a living honestly, (or
> >dishonestly in easier ways :) ) I don't see why there would be piracy.
> 
> Again, I'd cite real life as an example. Taking purely those people I know
> personally (so as not to offend anyone by appearing to make
> generalisations), there are plenty of people who do dangerous or illegal
> things for the 'hell of it', because they were brought up that way, because
> they get a buzz out of it, or because they just hate the idea of making
> their living by doing a 'proper' job. There will be plenty of such people
> available in a Traveller universe, who won't bother to sit down with an
> accountant and a calculator to do all the sums before turning to illicit
> work (of which piracy is only one example).

That's a good point. So I guess I should have said there will very,
very, few _successful_ independent pirates. :-) And these bozos
attempting half-assed piracy will just keep anti-piracy units on their
toes and make "serious" pirates' jobs that much more difficult.

> >No, it's always an issue when trying to find a buyer. No reputable buyer
> >would buy a cargo that wasn't intended for them (ie exactly what they
> >ordered, from their supplier), and has the correct documents attached.
> >They could get in *big* trouble.
> 
> Again, in today's world, fencing of stolen goods (even where it's absolutely
> bloody obvious they're stolen) is commonplace. Scams involving buying goods,
> selling them fast and then disappearing before you have to pay the invoices
> from the original suppliers is just another example.

[off-topic]
Speaking of scams and invoices... our company yesterday received an
invoice from someplace in Spain called "World Telecommunication" for an
"updated/corrected registration text/socitation for the International
Directory & CD-rom 1997/98." the paid inscription includes a free
CD-ROM.

All for a mere US$996.00. This thing *was* an invoice, for all intents
and purposes, including a pink copy etc. An invoice for something we
never ordered. I imagine many plebs working for larger faceless
organizations would send payment without consulting a higher authority.

Anyone hear of this scam? Anyone know where to go to stamp out such
things? The "invoice" includes email & web-page addresses... any ideas?

> In summary, you have to be a bright bunch to be *successful* pirates, but
> that doesn't prevent others from trying their hand at the game. No doubt the
> majority of piracy 'random encounters' mentioned in the Traveller rules
> apply to the latter situation - the PCs might just be unlucky to encounter
> such an incompetent pirate group in the one or two attacks they make before
> being hit by the INFDTKFSOSOOIP (Imperial Naval Forces Dedicated To Kicking
> Five Sorts Of **** Out Of Incompetent Pirates). :-)

I agree. Random encounters would be of the more common, incompetant
type.

> Andy
> 
> P.S. It's worth remembering that in my games I play the 100 diameter limit
> from Mr. Sun, and this often far exceeds the distance to Mr. Inhabitable
> Planet, meaning that Mr. Starship may have to spend several days in Mr. Real
> Space heading into and out of the planetary system. This, naturally,
> provides far greater opportunities for catching Mr. Victim without having
> Mr. System Patrol close at hand at spoil one's fun.

Sounds like Mr. Referee runs an interesting Traveller Campaign. :)

Thanks for bringing my points down to earth. In general, I agree with
your perception of piracy. I've seen games where the Ref. made it too
easy for the players to commit piracy, which is why I wanted to
emphasize the inherant difficulty and problems a pirate would encounter.

> P.P.S. Robert - loved Sunbeard's diary! :-)

I loved it too, btw!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2067
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2068



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
re: Old pulsars
Re:  CONTACT and irrational numbers
re: CT product query
Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: Purpose of piracy (was: Of Pirates and Lurking)
Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058
THUDDD 7 entry deadline nearing
Re: Cost of piracy THE SOLUTION!!!!
Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading...
Tredegar Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Contact for Joe Fugate
CSC Updated (again)
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:11:25 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

douglas wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
<snip>
> > The "bottom" of the scale is relatively equivalent to todays "bottom".
> > The analogy doesn't hold. The top could be infinite and it wouldn't
> > matter. To use an example, just because Bill Gates is worth tens of
> > billions doesn't mean he won't notice it if someone walks in and steals
> > the 10 million dollar Leonardo da Vinci notebooks.
> 
> I got your point.  You missed mine.  Relative value has a lot of play here.

I guess that's where we disagree. I think the relative size of the
Imperium has no bearing. I believe the Imperium, being a large but
feudal (highly federal) organization, would notice things like starships
being stolen.

Just because, as an aggregate, there are many tens or hundreds of
thousands of starships in the entire Imperium doesn't mean that the
planetary or subsector level (gov'd by dukes, marquis' etc.) wouldn't
notice or bother.

>  Yes, we
> are talking about 30 - 70 MCr ships.  However, we are discussing them in the
> reference of a society where 14-18 MCr ships are common (almost any in-system shuttle
> or lauch you care to name), 21 MCr ships are given away (Scouts), and 30 -70 MCr

Scout ships are not "given away", the scouts that fly them are on
detached duty.

> ships are only viable on the fringe markets of the Imperium.  The real markets use
> 25,000 dTon ships, and I don't even have a price there - easily a factor of 10 to 20
> times the target vessels we see here.  Carjacking may not be appropriate - Truck
> jacking would be.  Makes a big splash around the truckstop, even hits the news for
> the town it occurs in.  Doesn't make a ripple outside of that area tho'.

It doesn't *need* to make a ripple outside the subsector level. My point
is the Imperium is a Feudal organization, there is no _one_ person
pulling all the strings allocating anti-piracy forces throughout the
_entire_ Imperium. Sector and subsector admirals are relatively
independant of one another.

> > In the same vein, the Imperium *because* it is a bureaucracy spanning
> > thousands of worlds, (it's everywhere!) *will* get involved. If an item
> > worth the yearly salary of 1000 of its citizens is stolen, it is a cause
> > of concern.
> 
> The Imperium has many, many other things to worry about besides small ship conflicts,

imho, the Imperium will take notice of *any* "small ship conflict".

> or events happening to traders with no clout.  We have brought out piracy and
> dissected it, but let's keep some things in perspective.  Ships disappear every day.
> Some skip.  Some are retired.  Some are damaged.  Some misjump.  As long as the sound
> to noise ratio of piracy is kept below a certain level, there will be no response.

Here you have a valid point. But a ship being stolen through conflict
will make a lot of noise. Local sensors will see a conflict, and it will
be noticed. Ship's skipping and misjumping are another matter.

> > It's no "carjacking". A car is worth less than a thousandth of a
> > starship. A car is many orders of magnitude easier to steal than a
> > starship.
> >
> > Your assumption is piracy is as common as modern petty larceny, and
> > therefore the Imperium won't notice. My assumption is piracy is
> > difficult. Therefore when it happens, it is noticed. This is bigger than
> > grand theft auto. MILLIONs of creds. Big bucks.
> >
> 
> This is where I think we have a basic disagreement.  I think piracy is possible.  I
> don't think it is common.  I would imagine there are *maybe* 1 or 2 serious pirates
> per sector.  (Let me be clear - SECTOR, not subsector)

Au contraire, on that point we agree. Piracy is possible, and your
estimate of the numbers of pirates is reasonable. I just don't think the
majority of these pirates will be acting alone, without the support of
an outside organization.

And *because* it is so rare, any piracy that happens *will* be noticed,
and anti-piracy forces will be placed on alert.

[snip]
> > Cargo manifests are *not* public knowledge. There's no way to know which
> > cargos are going where, on what vessel, and how to identify that vessel,
> > without covertly obtained information.
> 
> I never said they were public knowledge.  Just that it is information.  So far as
> knowing where... [I've been over this before], let's just agree to disagree.  I
> obviously allow for more than you do.

Well, I think the info is very difficult to come by, and it requires
some serious covert intelligence skills. That's why I think a pirate
acting alone needs contacts and a backing org.

<snip>

> > Forging records, altering tags, fencing the goods... all of this takes
> > very specific knowledge from a wide variety of fields.
> 
> forgery, electronics, computer and streetwise - there are no less than 2 characters
> (rolled using std. chargen) that have these combination of skills in my current
> group.  The individual skills may not be very high - but that is subject to
> change...  And I think a merchant character would be familiar with the requirements
> to change manifests and cargo containers.

Could be. Could also be that these tasks are very difficult, and
requires a lot of time and/or high skill.
 
> > The vast majority of cargos would be very difficult to resell. The cargo
> > is intended for a specific market. Who would buy it? Would the paultry
> > sum received be worth the risk?
> 
> Raw materials I might agree with.  Finished goods, I don't.  There is a market for
> everything.

Yes, but not everything fits into every market.

As an example, let me use a real-world example: the bidet. You highjack
a shipment of bidet (bidets?) off the coast of France. Jumping to
America, you try to find a buyer in the streets of New York. How easy is
that going to be?

Even if you do find a buyer in NYC, I suspect they will not require as
many as the original destination buyer in Paris. You'll lose money. You
won't be able to sell them all.

It will be a similar situation in Traveller. Each world will have many
markets, with different customs, requirements, Tech Levels, tastes... it
will be very difficult to fence on another planet, products destined for
one specific market.

[Snip]
> > You gotta be organized. You gotta have the backing of a government,
> > corporation or crime syndicate. Or you're toast. A footnote on the 11
> > o'clock news.
> 
> Sorry, by unorganized I meant 'single ship'.  Fleets attract attention.  So far as
> the skills and the contacts - most scouts and merchants will already know the people,
> it's just how they use 'em.

I'm not talking fleets, I'm just talking backing. Not only do you gotta
know the "right" people, but you have to no *a lot* of "right" people,
in order to move the goods, find a suitable market in which to fence,
pay for damage to your ship, know cargoes needed, etc.

So you have to be really experienced and really good, or have a lot of
friends and outside support.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:58:57 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Old pulsars

Other experts can probably provide more detail, but...generally by the time a 
pulsar is a few million years old its rotation will have slowed enough that
it's not producing pulses any more. After that it'll be nearly undetectable - 
the surface will be quite hot but the surface area is so small that its
luminosity is essentially zero. No non-pulsar neutron star has currently
been detected (that I know of); you'd have to pick it up through gravitational
microlensing or suchlike. There was a recent HST paper about flux measurements
from the surface of a relatively old pulsar - Pavlov, Welty and Cordova 
1997 ApJ 489 (November 1) L75; I think they got a surface temperature of 10^6
kelvin. Note that the crab-style nebula will be gone long before 10^6 years
(particularly since the pulsar often gets a few hundred or thousand km/s of
kick...)

There are mechanisms to "spin up" older pulsars - thought to be accretion off
a stellar companion - which is where millisecond pulsars come from. 

The detected pulsar planets are in the moon - earth mass range, with some
small hint of a jupiter-mass companion in a very wide orbit.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:08:16 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  CONTACT and irrational numbers

>All irrational numbers share the behaviour of having arbitrary sequences of
>digits showing up.

This is definitely not true (0.12112111211112111112....)

>and that the location in the decimal progression is as
>likeley as any other you cannot say anything about probable/improbable
>there.

You can, though. If around the thousand'th digit of pi we had hit a sequence of
digits that spelled out "hi there this is god, sorry about all the confusion
on that birth control issue" in EBCDIC codes, we could be reasonably sure 
that it wasn't pure chance (and that we all should rush out and buy IBM.) 
The message in Contact is somewhat deeper than the thousandth digit, but it's
long enough and clearly non-random enough that you can put upper limits on
the probability of it arriving by "chance", and that probability will be
pretty low.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:01:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:CT product query

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:
>>God, it must be >10 years since I ran that...the only memory I have is of
>>an ex-Imperial Marine in BD stomping on lab rats...

>and Dom wrote
>>My only memory (say 9 years old) is my character sitting at one of the
>>interlinking sections with two shots left in his magnum revolver while the
>>last of the creatures lurked below, killing the last of my companions!
>
>it's definitely a better adventure if you run it with a very-lightly-armed
>party - battle dress kind of takes all the fun out of it when all the
>opposition
>has are teeth.

Absolutely - the heaviest weapon we had was an SMG, and the player with it
heard a noise in the tank and looked around the corner, leading with his
gun. It was very messy when it was wrenched out of his hand and he was
dragged away below.

When Nick Munn ran 'Valentines' Rose' at Stabcon, he purposely wound me up
by concealing a copy of Death Station in his notes, and then letting me see
it!

(Nick - have you submitted the scenario to JTAS yet?)

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:13:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>At 02:33 AM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;
>
>Glenn, with your kind permission, I'm stealing this for a .sig...

Doug,

in the words of the Prodigy - 'You're a twisted firestarter!' - remember
the last time someone hinted at fascism on this list (I'm sure Kenneth
'burn baby burn' Bearden does) and the ensuing flamefest?!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:43:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Purpose of piracy (was: Of Pirates and Lurking)

Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:29:42 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  Why not just wait and see if you ever get an opportunity safe
>enough for your level of desperation/carelessness, and take the
>cargo if you must, or the whole d#@n ship if you can? The one
>is a windfall to enable you to make some headway on your payments,
>and the other is the gift of extreme wealth beyond most wants.

Well, I don't say that pirate would _never_ take the whole ship.
I may be that there are rare situations where everything comes
together (crew doesn't think to disable jump, don't even
bluff fighting off the attack, etc.)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:19:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)

>Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:17:18 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Well, this gets back to assumptions about how extensive
>>the documentation on each ship is, whether it get
>>distributed so it is at each system when it gets there,
>>whether it includes thing like upgrades, etc.  I
>>am one of those who don't feel that simply assuming,
>>given the slow communications, that all sites will
>>have any records they might want is a mistake.
>
>  However, having (anti-piracy) intelligence units collating
>and distributing material pre-emptively isn't commo-time
>dependent, nor is determining that a ship design will be hard
>pressed to make money legally, although realizing that a given
>ship must be losing money by reported operations is.

I don't agree.  The intellegence, if it is to have any
chance of being in place at time, means there there
has to be someone at every system taking it, noting
what it is, deciding where it need to go, and finding
ships to take the info.  This has to be done for every
single bit of info, for which this info is just one.
Add this to the fact that a ship that is equiped to
defeat a ship that attacks it is also a ship that is
designed to defeat a ship it attacks (which would
be even easier since you can determine the tatical
situation) means that even if you go to the trouble
of getting that info you can't really stop piracy
anyway.

>>Yeah, but just uping a computer is only a fraction of
>>what those ships do.

>  Pardon? Everything that's hidden about that design is meant to
>serve the authorities, including the immense network of agents
>and branch offices they have to draw upon.

Yeah, but the point is that you can't detect with sensors
that a ship has extra _armaments_ that are hidden.  And
records can be forged.  There has never been a system
of record keeping in the history of mankind that hasn't
had enough people figuring out a way around it to prevent
it from wiping out a type of crime.

>>Yeah, but if even a 2000 ton ship can be described as ships that
>>are marginal enough that they are intended to operate off of the
>>main trade routes, there are certainly ships that can worry
>>a measly 200 ton system defense boat.  (or even the bigger
>>400 ton one).
>
>  Again, ImperialLines is an empire wide mega-corp running off
>major trade routes. They _are_ the larger ships in their AO.

Even a megacorp doesn't design ships that are bigger than
the trade will support.  There are ships designed to visit
smaller worlds and even if in independant can only afford
a ship 1/2 the size, he is still 2.5 to 5 times bigger than
a system defense boat.

>  So the 300 and 400 Dt anti-piracy ships designated by canon are
>unable to defend themselves against a typical pirate? Does the IN know?

No.  The IN just isn't dumb enough to use one buy itself to
stop piracy.  I certainly wouldn't object to them being
deployed near enough to aid each other.

>  Actually, the entire idea of when pirates would be attacking warships
>needs to be explored in depth, as it seems to reappear quite often.

Yeah, but we keep saying the same things about it.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:31:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2058

>>[Regarding evolution on Lair...]
>>>I doubt that there's been sufficient time
>>
>>There was for humans.  We are not the same species that was taken [...]

>Unless I'm very mistaken, I believe that all of the human races in Traveller
>are interfertile (it is well established in the Canon that Vilani and
>Solomani are, and by definition that makes all of the humans in Traveller
>the same species (Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, etc.).

Well, I was a little loose on my wording.  I probably should
have said subspecies.  However, 300,000 years and evolving
to a new subspecies is sufficient for thing like when
you breed to change.

>Relatively minor variation (such as in number of teeth, number of fingers,
>most common hair and skin color, etc) can be explained as being caused by a
>small initial original population that had these traits.

Not unless the ancients either took _one_ person or selectively
sent only ones with a certain number of teeth, fingers, etc.
to Zhodane, etc.  The fact is that number of teeth just
doesn't vary except in a few individuals (or none at all?)
This is not the same thing as happening to get a lot of
dark haired people in the pool.

>The Vargr have a LOT of subspecies, and at least as much (probably more)
>variation between them than between the various Human subspecies.  This was
>probably deliberate on the part of the Ancients.

Do they.  I thought they all originated from one world.  This
would mean that they are highly unlikely to even qualify
as different subspecies.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:04:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7 entry deadline nearing

It's only 36 hours until the THUDDD 7 entry deadline, and we only have a
few entries...just one or two more would make this contest a *lot* more
interesting.  There are certain well-known fans of insanely overarmed
small craft I expected to be all over this contest, from whom not a peep
has been heard.  C'mon, people, the future of the 3I is at stake! :)

By the way, in the absence of any howls of protest, voting for THUDDD 7
will be web-based rather than by email...this is your last chance to let
me know if that will be a problem for you.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:18:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy THE SOLUTION!!!!

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> It is 'somebody else's problem'.

Hans hit it at last! The solution to Life Pirates and Everything...simply
apply a 'Somebody Else's Problem' field device to it! Voila...it's no
longer a problem....;-)

Bruce Johnson (Who has thought all along that this is one of those
agree-to-disagree things like near-c feudaltech Virocks, and proposes
whacking all involved on the head with all four books of the Hitchkikers
Guide trilogy until they drop the subject. This is, of course, the special
Sayat modified FSY version of the Trilogy, with the Universe Collapser
spinal mount ;-)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 18:20:42 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)

Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.20 displacement ton open frame;  8.44 tonnes;  Cr 6956
Chassis:
     16.8 kL open frame (11 m long x 1.6 m wide x 1.6 m high);  Structure:
422 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     95.0 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 3.75 L of enriched water
(3.75 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 95.0 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 20 km/h; 
Range: 2025 km;  Agility: +2DM (0.8G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL11, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     14.0 kL of modular cargo space

Spaceports need a simple means of shifting standardized cargo containers. The
Ralston cargo lifter is designed to shift standard one ton cargo containers
from place to place within the starport. It is an open framework of
structurecomp with a small power plant, some contragrav lifters, an operator
station, and cargo grapples. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:47:05 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading...

Ok, I lied... this is just another boring message on the pirate discussion...

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> responded to my thoughts on "Selling
stolen cargo":

>Keep in mind that a 600 T armed ship will need to earn about 8 million
>credits per year to keep in the black...

Er, I must have missed something. Could you (privately if it's a long
explanation) show me the calculations for that?

>>noted above, the only surviving non-corporate pirates in the Imperium are
>>going to have to be damned good at their job; they will *have* to know
>>exactly what cargos to take, and which ships not to touch (e.g. because
>>they're more heavily armed than they appear).
>That's the big problem right there. Let's say the pirate lurks about in a
>big starport waiting for the right cargo to come along...

I think there's been a little too much emphasis on assuming that to pick the
right cargo you have to hang about in the starport... on the odd occasion
that pirates have appeared in my games they have generally been hitting a
ship which they knew would be at a given place at a given time, i.e. they've
hit high value shipments of which they have had substantial prior data. This
goes back to the "intelligent pirate" concept, where the pirate operation is
planned weeks/months in advance, like a good bank robbery, rather than being
an opportunist approach (although the latter might occasionally work).

As an example, pirate X knows ship Y will leave planet Z on day A at time B.
Pirate X waits in another system, and relies upon a carefully calculated
jump to bring him into the Z system at approximately the right time to catch
X before he's got to his jump point (remember, in my games this can be
several days of travel).

Hans covered much the same point, saying:

>But say that you do arrive at roughly the same time as your victim. Either
>there will be a patrol vessel stationed a some specific spot at the 100
>diameter limit, in which case your victim will aim for that spot...

Again, with the longer distance to come in from 100 diameters, there's a far
better chance of intercepting the victim without a patrol boat being
anywhere in the vicinity (100 diameters for some large suns gives an
absolutely huge sphere which would need to be patrolled).

>But I'm ready to be convinced if you can come up with something a bit
>more well-founded than 'Can too!'.

As I said, this is one aspect that allows piracy to exist in my game. Given
the simplifications of some Traveller rules (e.g. T4 doesn't currently give
extended system generation, star sizes, etc.) which result in all systems
having the jump point 100 *planetary* diameters out, then piracy becomes
that much more difficult. At that point the pirates have to rely upon hiding
in asteroid fields, etc. and it all gets more difficult to justify.

>BTW. all the above assumes that the cargo is not sufficiently valuable that
>your victim (or your victim's insurance agent) hires an escort (and that
>the cargo's owner dosen't send it by a better armed ship).

The 'piracy' attempt in my game was against a small trader specifically
because said trader was smuggling some very valuable goods and was on a
cheap small ship in order to avoid attention. In fact it came more under the
mega-corp privateering part of piracy than anything else.

>Not really. It gives Mr. Pirate the problem of catching Mr. Victim before
>he gets more than 10 diameters from the planet, when Mr. Pirate has to come
>in several 100 diameters from the planet.

Mr. Victim might not want to chance that mis-jump (in the 10-100 diameter
range, of Mr. Sun, remember, not Mr. Planet) if the alternative is to hand
over the cargo which (a) probably isn't his, (b) is hopefully insured
anyway. A mis-jump can be more catastrophic than having your ship shot up if
you end up in deep space - that's a pretty horrible and slow death waiting
for the air/food/water to run out...

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 18:20:14 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Tredegar Cargo Lifter (TL11)

Tredegar Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     11.26 displacement ton open frame;  81.0 tonnes;  kCr 37.8
Chassis:
     157 kL open frame (23 m long x 3.4 m wide x 3.4 m high);  Structure:
1.88 tonnes of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour
rating
     
Performance:
     900 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 32.0 L of enriched water
(32.0 kg), 90 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 900 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 20 km/h; 
Range: 1801 km;  Agility: +2DM (0.7G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL11, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     140 kL of modular cargo space

Spaceports need a simple means of shifting standardized cargo containers. The
Tredegar cargo lifter is designed to shift standard ten ton cargo containers
from place to place within the starport. It is an open framework of
structurecomp with a small power plant, some contragrav lifters, an operator
station, and cargo grapples. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:39:39 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Contact for Joe Fugate

Yo Folks,
     Does anyone out there have a contact (address, e-mail, phone, in that
order of preference) for Joe Fugate?
     Cheers,
          Jo (Grant)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Nov 1997 18:24:13 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Updated (again)

I was too ill to walk the picket line this morning, so I updated CSC to allow
modular cargo and lab space.  As usual, you can download it from
<<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html>>


As an illustration, I also designed two cargo lifters for one and ten disp
ton containers.  Cheap and slow (20 km/h), but good enough for use at a
starport.  You can find these (and over 100 other vehicles) at
<<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:44:30 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

> Another thing: Would the letterforms of this typeface be easy to handwrite?
> One of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of imanginary typefaces
> are their inefficiency of form. It's just so difficult to write in Aurabesh
> (the Star Wars font) or Klingo!

Some Chinese characters have _18_ individual strokes. (maybe more)
 I do not understand how people can even read them, much less write them 
in small areas. Besides, computerized fonts of a language often bear
little 
to no resemblance to handwritten words. Compare "Times Roman-12" to 
"Third Grader-20". Like, who writes and puts in serifs?

> Of course, I am not certain how much of this is a cultural effect -- maybe
> if you grow up with it, you learn how to write the letterforms of any
> language quickly.

My wife was born in South Africa and grew up speaking English and some
German (long story). At the ripe old age of 26 she decided to learn
Mandarin (as she was living in Taiwan at the time) and now can read
and write around 1000 characters. She even knows some of the 18 stroke
ones. She had no exposure to Chinese before this time and at 26 is
(arguably) well out of her peak learning period (in some psych textbook
they had a study of leanring rates vs age and most people have a 
much harder time learning a language after childhood).

According to her, it's not so hard because the characers have logical 
sub-goupings that occur over and over again - 'radicals'. This means
that an 18 stroke character ends up really only being a 4 or 5 
radical character, which is a bit easier to deal with. At any rate,
my point is that with enough practice it's not impossible to learn to
write even the most complex languages.

To me, the main thing about character writability is ergonomic -
how easy is it for the average writer to form the character? Vilani
would probably be easy for any Vilani-like human to write. Aslan
or Vargr, on the other hand, might be tricky for humans to write,
as their "hands" probably have very different ranges of motion.
I think in Chinese there is a bias towards top-left to lower-right
diagonal strokes, as opposed to the other way around due to 
right-hand bias, but I'm not sure (Chinese writer, please correct me).

Also, under normal curcumstances, I'd say that you'd want a character 
set where poorly-formed instances of one character are not easily
confused with another character, but standard ISO-Latin-1 has so
many characters that are easy to deform into another character via
bad handwriting that this isn't a big requirement.

Flnoh
- --
Ethan Henry                        egh@klg.com
                            http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:58:59 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Joseph Dietrich wrote:

>>Tho upper and lower case differentiation does make things more readable.
>
>
>This is definitely the case, especially when you are doing body text (as
>opposed to headlines).

This is, I think, more because it's what we're used to than because of any
objective typeface/neurological interplay.  There's a largish body of study
on this sort of thing, and it boils down (IIUC) to there being no
measurable difference in reading speed/accuracy between educated native
users of scripts with or without uppper/lowercase letter forms -- or, for
that matter, between users of alphabetic vs. syllabic or morphophonemic
writing systems.

>Another thing: Would the letterforms of this typeface be easy to handwrite?
>One of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of imanginary typefaces
>are their inefficiency of form. It's just so difficult to write in Aurabesh
>(the Star Wars font) or Klingo!
>
>Of course, I am not certain how much of this is a cultural effect -- maybe
>if you grow up with it, you learn how to write the letterforms of any
>language quickly.

I think -- Glenn, correct me if I'm wrong -- but this Bilanidin Bold font
is meant to be just that, a printed font.  It bears the same resemblance to
handwritten Vilani as handwritten English does to whatever font you're
reading this message.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2068
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2069



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
FF&S2 disagrees with CSC re grav propulsion.  Uh oh.
Population [Re: Transponders]
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Bilandian Fonts
Re: Spinning Space Stations Hi.
Re: 100-Diameter Limit
Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading...
Re: Cost of piracy suppressing Hi.
Cargo Values and attached Economic System
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Mottoes
Re: Death from ...
WOW
Re: That three-letter word

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:43:33 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking

Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:45:42 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  There is a case to be made that existing small warships may as
>well be used, especially as patrol work is one of their presumed
>major wartime duties.

Well, it has already been questioned, and argued about, if
those patrols are a) all suited to antipiracy work and
b) numerous enough to even come close to stopping piracy
c) don't also already have tasks the antipiracy patrols
would take them away from.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:49:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

>  This presupposes that both reconaissance in force and anti-
>logistics (both classic cruiser roles) will be non-existent
>until such time as the main fleets from a couple subsectors
>back arrive?

It presumes that you don't do reconaissance in force because
the point of that is to make sure your patrols can safely
report back.  The ability to sit where you can jump at
any moment can obviate that need.  Assuming by
anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding
(anti-anti-logistics?) since anti-logistics will
be forays of ships grouped into small fleets into
enemy territory and is not really much for stopping
piracy.  The best way to deal with
this is to set up convoys which, by definition, means
you don't have enough ships to patrol every system
to protect every ship.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:41:53 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: FF&S2 disagrees with CSC re grav propulsion.  Uh oh.

When last I checked, the maximum acceleration that contragrav could give
you at TL 12 was about a tenth of a G.

This translates into a fairly slow maximum speed, and nothing like the 3000
kph grav fighters I used to design with CSC.

IIRC, Dave Golden said that this was, indeed, the idea, and that you need
thrusters to shove something through the air without fuel cost and major
signature.  ISTR that he also suggested that a section on prop/fan engines
powered by the fusion power plant might be in order as well.  While I like
the idea, it seems like we are stuck with CG being able to shove things at
fairly high speed.

How do we reconcile these two systems?  Whine whine whine?

My suggestion would be modifying FF&S to make CG not limited by local
gravity.  This, aside from the stacking compensators, looks like the major
thing not allowed.  Since i have never allowed stacked compensators in my
games, it does not bother me to just drop that from the CSC system.

Here is an example of a vehicle that CSC will let you design, but FF&S2
will not:

>Judeksow Speeder (TL15)
>Designed by Robert Prior
>0.10 displacement ton open-topped needle streamlined;  896 kg;  kCr 17.7
>208 kW TL15 Fusion Plus power plant;
>Propulsion System: 200 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
>Maximum Speed: 6413 km/h; 

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:46:01 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Population [Re: Transponders]

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

[Regarding Imperial population, circa 1100.]

> I'm 99% sure that I have seen the 15 trillion figure somewhere in an
> official publication, but the last time I tried to track down the
> reference, I failed to find it. Wildstar did some calculations where
> he actually summed up the populations of the individual planets and
> IIRC he arrived at 16 trillion, but I forget just what source he got
> the information from.

Survival Margin may refer to the 15 trillion figure.  DGP's TD#10 had
figures for the number of Imperial citizens in all sectors, and while
perhaps not entirely reliable, came to 15.77 trillion.  In line with
the Solomani tolerance of tighter spaces, the densest knot of humanity
was centered on Sol by some jiggling of sector generation.  In a note
a long time ago, I added up the figures for the domains based on TD#10.

  The population of the Domains and Independent Sectors breaks down
  as follows (Imperial citizens only?):

  SOL:           4308.0 billion        27.3 %         3.2
  SYLEA:         2846.6 billion        18.1 %         1.5
  ILELISH:       2463.8 billion        15.6 %         1.7
  VLAND:         2301.6 billion        14.6 %         1.3
  ANTARES:       1498.7 billion         9.5 %         1.5
  DENEB:         1223.5 billion         7.8 %         1.6
  GATEWAY:        571.5 billion         3.6 %         1.6
  Verge:          282.5 billion         1.8 %         1.3
  Empty Quarter:  273.7 billion         1.7 %         1.4

  Second column is percentage of the Imperial population.
  Third column of numbers is average population density per system
    in billions of sophonts, if population was spread evenly rather
    than concentrated on 10% of the worlds.  Cultural Solomani seem
    to be about twice as populous as everyone else.
  SOL includes areas administered by sectors in the Domain (Hinters
    and Magyar).
  ANTARES would include Meshan (administered from Lishun), but that's
    the only sector I don't have an Imperial population summary for.
    It's probably insignificant, since there aren't many Imperial worlds
    there.

These numbers aren't entirely reliable.  I seem to recall actually
adding up the numbers from DGP's own sector files later on with a
short program, and only getting 992.3 billion in the Domain of Deneb
for Imperial citizens.  But fifteen to sixteen trillion (10^12) seems
like a reasonable range for 1100.

  -- Steve Bonneville
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:25:18 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >Tho upper and lower case differentiation does make things more readable.
> 
> This is definitely the case, especially when you are doing body text (as
> opposed to headlines).

This is definitely the case for _English Speakers_.

Other script users (japanese, chinese, hangul, arabic, hindu, etc. etc.)
get along just fine without two cases. It is because we are brought up
to read upper/lower case that we find it easier to read.

Large amounts of body text in uppercase don't have ascenders and
decenders. Therefore, it is more difficult to read words by "shape".
This is the way most people read: they recognize the shape of the entire
word; they don't read letter-by-letter.

In designing an imaginary typeface, it is my humble opinion that two
cases make the new typeface _harder_ to read. You have to memorize two
new forms instead of one. This is the main reason why I chose not to
create a "lower" case for Bilanidin. (The other reason being I have
other priorities for the time I spend on this)

> Another thing: Would the letterforms of this typeface be easy to handwrite?
> One of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of imanginary typefaces
> are their inefficiency of form. It's just so difficult to write in Aurabesh
> (the Star Wars font) or Klingo!

In its current incarnation, no, not that easy to handwrite.

After I'm finished the bold version, I hope to be able to come up with a
suitable hand-written model.

Remember that typesetting was based upon forms easy to _chisel_, not
write. Cursive forms of type came about after the "chisel"ed versions.

In the far future, how much actual writing by "hand" would there be?
Wouldn't computer trascription etc. nullify the need (to a point)?

I designed Bilanidin to be a kinda-computerish based thing. As I've said
before, it was inspired by the Starship Operators Manual, so you'll have
to rag on the artist in that book if you don't like the forms... ;->

> Of course, I am not certain how much of this is a cultural effect -- maybe
> if you grow up with it, you learn how to write the letterforms of any
> language quickly.

That's true, but so is your original point. The handwritten script and a
"typeset" script, that's more difficult to write, don't have to be the
same. There could be one or multiple scripts. The aslan have a female
and male script, iirc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:23:43 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bilandian Fonts

Reading what I wrote, I stepped back and thought I might sound like I'm
being overly critical and ranting. I assure everyone, that is not my
intention.

I appreciate the comments. I just want to clarify my design assumptions
in creating the font. Going back and redoing it is not something I'm
keen on. :-) Perhaps someone can create a font for another Traveller
language that incorporates Robert's ideas...

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> >>Vilani Letters:
> >>
> >>A B D E G I K L M N P R S U Z Sh Kh
> 
> >On TravLang, we've also counted AA, II, and UU as distinct phonemes,
> >bringing the total up to 20.
> 
> Why not have a diacritic which doubles vowels, and another
> diacritic which softens consonants?

I thought of this for the vowels, but I decided against it for two
reasons: (1) The doubled vowels are distinct phonemes and therefore
deserve their own glyph, and (2) I wanted to leave diacriticals for tone
marking. It is "canon" that Vilani vowels have different tones, 6 to be
exact, so having a diacritic for "length" of vowel and different one for
"tone" could be confusing.

> So your mapping may be
> 
> A   B   D   E   G   I   K   L   M   N   P   R   S   U   Z   <-- 'plain'
> AA                  II                          SH  UU  ZH  <-- with diac.
You mean:                 KH                              
ZH doesn't exist in Vilani.

> This is easy to map.  Normal font lowercase, diacriticized
> font as uppercase.

Having a separate glyph for KH and SH is easy to map, too. It can be
done in the same way.

About the "softens" consonants diacritical: Z is a voiced S. S is the
"soft" form of Z. They use the same mouth parts.

Realize that SH and KH are distinct phonemes, they are *not* soft forms
of S and K. It is a quirk of _english_ that we spell them the way we do.
Look in a dictionary, you'll find they each have their own symbol in the
International Phonetic alphabet. kh = x and sh =  [thing that looks like
an integration symbol]

> >My thinking on punctuation is that it should be different enough from
> >basic letterforms that it is easy to spot and discern.
> 
> If instead they looked like characters, then the script would
> probably look more alien and undecipherable, which is just
> fine by me... after all, if you know the tricks then it's
> easy, otherwise it's difficult.  SO: some of your PCs could
> be familiar with the tricks of Bilandian -- the Vilani PCs --
> and be able to read the font, while the others are in the dark.

Why would an alien want to use an undecipherable writing system? :) My
assumption is that users of a writing system would want punctuation to
"stand" out -- to set apart letterforms -- this is why the Roman
alphabet puts a space after major punctuation.

If the punctuation resembles letterforms too closely, the purpose of the
punctuation is lost.

I'm sure the odd characters and confusing dots in Bilanidin will keep
most characters in the dark. ;-)

> Ooh ooh, Mistah Kottah, how about this if you want weird:
> 26 half-characters, which form a letter when combined.
> This makes life horribly difficult for transcription, of course.
> But it allows an oodle of combinations.

That's a good idea, Eppstein, and its what we imagined the "orginal"
Vilani would be similar to. Something like the Korean Hangul alphabet,
where to sounds join to form a single glyph for each syllable.

Pretty difficult to practically use on english computers tho'. :)

MAYBE sometime I'll design a Hangul-like alphabet with the included
keyboard resources for Mac, so it's easy to type. (Type "sa" and get one
glyph). I have no frigging idea how to create "dead-keys" on the PC,
though.

I expressly designed Bilanidin as being akin to the japanese katakana
alphabet. It's a system used primarily for transcribing Galanglic, and
making it easier for galanglic speakers to read Vilani. I used the
writing in DGP's SOM as inspiration. The SOM contained english messages
encoded in the symbols, so if you can read my font, read the messages in
the SOM... 

[snip of Tolkein stuff]

> Ok, just some brainstorms.

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:13:52 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Spinning Space Stations Hi.

>>	I wuz wondering if someone could let me know what the appropriate
>>equations governing centripetal force are?
   
   a = w^2 * r
   w = sqrt(a/r)
   r = radius (400 meters)
   a = gravity (10 m/s^2)
   w = angular velocity = sqrt(10/400) radians per second 
   	= .025 revolutions per second
   or 1 revolution every 40 seconds.
   
>>I've designed a low tech space station that requires spin to create gravity,
>>the diameter is 800metres or so and I want 1 gravity at the furthest point
> from
>>the hub. Given these conditions what is the angular velocity?
   
   Hope this helps.
   
   -Rob
   

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:39:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 100-Diameter Limit

>The 1/r^3 rule give us the same jumpranges as canon. They main advantage is
>that we can now calculate the jumprange for other densities of planets as
>well (multiply with D^(1/3) where D = 1.0 for normal planets). The best
>advantage however is that jumpdistances for stars will be MUCH shorter than
>the 100 diamters and therefore we will rarely need to bother with them
>(quick now how many of you referees consider the stars diamter when
>determining travel times to jump?)
>
OK bad form to quote oneself perhaps but...

Note that 100 diams for the sun is 0.928 AU or pretty close to earths
orbit. Withe the formula below we'll get 0.59 AU which is quite a bit
shorter (just outside of Mercury).
The reason for this is simply the relative densities of the Sun and earth.
So those nongearheded referees can calculate Jr as 100 * diam and divide by
2 for Stars. We gearheads can use the formula below if we like but most
important of all we can fill in our roleplaying sessions with some more
technospeak:

Smuggler/pirate/trader to young naive farmboy:
"Navigating hyperspace aint like dustin crops kid, the tidal forces on the
ship can rip it apart while entering hyperspace this deep in the gravity
well - so shut your mouth or you'll find yourself floating home."

The formula for calculating Jumprange (100 diam limit) is:
Jr = 0.007052 * (m^(1/3))
(Jr measured in meters and mass in kilograms)

Below comes a handy table for planets and stars when the mass is known
    Mass        Earthmasses     Solarmasses
=========================================
      0.001       128 000 km      0.06 AU
      0.003       184 600 km      0.09 AU
      0.01        275 800 km      0.13 AU
      0.03        397 700 km      0.18 AU
      0.1         594 100 km      0.27 AU
      0.3         856 900 km      0.40 AU
      1         1 280 000 km      0.59 AU
      3         1 846 100 km      0.85 AU
     10         2 757 700 km      1.27 AU
     30         3 977 300 km      1.84 AU
    100         5 941 300 km      2.74 AU
    300         8 568 800 km      3.96 AU
  1 000        12 800 100 km      5.91 AU
  3 000        18 460 900 km      8.53 AU
 10 000        27 576 900 km     12.74 AU
 30 000        39 772 800 km     18.37 AU
100 000        59 412 700 km     27.45 AU

Bye for now


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:44:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading...

>As I said, this is one aspect that allows piracy to exist in my game. Given
>the simplifications of some Traveller rules (e.g. T4 doesn't currently give
>extended system generation, star sizes, etc.) which result in all systems
>having the jump point 100 *planetary* diameters out, then piracy becomes
>that much more difficult. At that point the pirates have to rely upon hiding
>in asteroid fields, etc. and it all gets more difficult to justify.

Actually I couldn't really find any mention of the 100 diameters rule in
the T4 rulebook at all. Not that I read it from cover to cover in any form
of deep concentration.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:49:07 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppressing Hi.

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
   [replying to David Summers]
> But you do use some percentage of your military budget on trying to
> prevent smuggling and piracy (your Coast Guard). It's just so much
> more difficult to patrol the coast of the US with ships than it is
> to patrol planets with starships in Traveller.
   
   Actually Hans, The Coast Guard and Navy devote no part of their budget
   to piracy suppression, and yet no piracy exists inside of US waters.
   This is because the Coast Guard and Navy would blow away any pirate
   operating in US waters incidentally.  The naval resources (including
   the Coast Guard) that routinely patrol US waters are looking for enemy
   submarines or aircraft, smugglers, distressed mariners, and Canadian
   fishermen, in that order.  Despite this, piracy does not exist in US
   waters because no pirate believes that the US Navy, Coast Guard, or
   merchant fleet is going to stand idly by whining, `It's not in our
   budget, it's not cost effective,' while they prey on shipping, no
   matter how small-fry it may be.
   
   But this buttresses your argument.  Since the 100 diameter region is
   easier for the Empire to patrol than territorial waters are for the US
   to patrol, piracy simply will not exist within 100 diameters of a
   mainworld short of referee fiat.
   
   In the real world, the places where piracy exists are not in US
   waters.  Similarly, in the Imperium, the places where piracy exists
   (excepting as always the referee fiat) are not in the 100 diameter
   limit of a world.
   
   The imperial navy will regularly patrol all mainworlds and gas giants
   to prevent enemy spies, attackers, or subversive forces from using or
   abusing these places --- this is what the Navy is for.  While they are
   at it, they will incidentally eliminate piracy from these places.
   Piracy will then have to move to places like the belt, where the IN's
   response time may be too long to provide an effective deterrent to a
   short-timescale pirating operation.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:35:41
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Cargo Values and attached Economic System

IMO there will be six basic categories of cargoes. Multiply all imports and
exports by 0.1 for a E sparport, 0.3 for a class D, 0.5 for a class C and
0.75 for a class B.

The first is items of mass consumption, worth about Cr2000 per cubic meter
(examples : Duff Beer, at Cr3 a 750 ml bottle) up to 2d6% of GWP, 1d6% if a
Poor world.

The second is items of luxury consumption, worth about Cr10 000 per m^3 (an
expensive grav bike, a bottle of Chateau Lafite '48) up to 1d6% of GWP.

The third is items of hyperluxury, worth Cr 100 000 a m^3 (including
packaging) (a bottle of Chateau Lafite '47 - the finest achievement of the
Old Republic). A world will spend 1d6% of GWP on hyperluxury items.

The fourth is military goods, worth Cr 250 000 a m^3 (an EW system for an
aerospace fighter). A world has a 1/3 chance of importing military goods,
in which case it will spend 10% of it's annual military equipment budget on
them.

The fifth is raw materials, worth (2d6-1) * (1d6) * Cr1 000 a m^3. A world
has a 1/3 chance of importing 2d6% of GWP in raw materials, and a 1/3
chance of importing 1d6% of GWP in raw materials.

The sixth is capital goods and spare parts, worth (2d6)*(1d6)*Cr 10000 a
m^3. A world will spend 1d6% of GWP on capital goods, 2d6% if Industrial or
Non-industrial.

For the moment, we will ignore where these goods are coming from ... values
are all in Imperial Credits, so adjust for local currency values.

Lets assume a world, Terra. C868977-7. 3 billion people, average income
ICr1000 p.a. (Terra's currency is low value, which pushes down it's per
capita income).

GWP is therefore IMCCr 3 000 000.

3.5% of GWP is Mass Consumption goods at Cr2000 a m3, therefore 52.5
million m3 of Mass Consumption goods, or 1 million m3 a week.

2% of GWP is Luxury Consumption goods at Cr10 000 a m3, therefore 6 million
m3 of Luxury goods, or 125 000 m3 a week.

3% of GWP is Hyper-luxury goods at Cr 100 000 a m3, or 900 000 m3, or about
18 000 t a week.

1% of GWP is military goods at Cr 250 000 a m3, or 120 000 m3, or about
2500 t a week.

2% of GWP is raw materials, at a cost of Cr 20 000 a m3, or 1.5 million
m3s, or about 125 000 m3 a week.

2% of GWP is capital goods, at a cost of Cr200 000 a m3, or 300 000 m3, or
about 6 000 m3 a week.

So Terra is spending 15.5% of GWP on imports, which seems about right.
Total tonnage is about 1.285 million m3 a week, or 100 000 displacement
tons of cargo a week. That is ummm lots of big merchant ships.

OK. Case two. Muller's Belt, C200588-B. GWP is ICr9000 per head for 400 000
people, for a GWP of IMCr3600.

My brain is melting, so I'm just going to divide the numbers for Terra by
1000. Turns into about 100 displacement tons a week, average value per week
of MCr 9. Call it two far traders, each with a cargo worth MCr4.5 ...

Next question is where do these cargos come from. Raw materials and luxury
goods could come from anywhere, capital and military goods presumably from
hi-tech industrial worlds. Note that at a value of KCr100 and up for a
displacement ton, transport costs become less of an issue, and transport
times become more of an issue - remember to charge interest on the value of
the money tied up in owning the cargo.

It should be theoretically possible to build a computer program that takes
in UWPS for a trading area and calculates imports for each world, and then
allocates exports so that imports=exports + cost of transport (or at least
come within a couple of percent). If we are really lucky, we could even
plug in different costs of transport and see how that affects the model
(the long-run trend in the 3I is for transport costs to fall, as your basic
free- and far-traders become far less bleeding edge technology).

Hope this helps and/or makes sense for people.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:00:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

Thu, 6 Nov 97 19:44:23 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>I just don't believe it will be at all common (about as common as large
>bank heists).

Well, I would agree that is in the ball park.  However, I would
guess that it would be about as common as bank heists in general.
I think that taking the whole ship would be about as common as
a large bank heist.

> And I don't believe that an independant pirate will be very
>successful, again about as successful as there are successful large bank
>heists. The successful ones will become very famous, much like that
>British Great Train Robber fella currently living in Brazil.

Well, there was a very large heist in SF, in which a number of
bystanders were killed in adition to the guards.  It was in
the news for a while and then died out (I don't know how
well covered it was in other places).  I would say that
taking a small ship would be equivalent to this and taking
a big ship would be like the great train robbery.

>>Well, it is not clear that piracy takes ships or cargo (and that
>>has been debated already).  In any case, the costs are not
>>bourne by average joes, but either by corps, the banks who
>>the owner will default to, or insurance.  They will be real
>>keen in weighing taxes versus losses.  To  the average
>>person in the Imperium I doubt piracy will be the crime
>>that bother them the most and to a corp it will be one
>>of a number of sources of losses.
>
>They will also be keen on not encouraging this sort of crime, which can
>get real expensive real fast. I hate the way it's always compared to car
>robbery or the like. It's *not* the same.

It not a question of "encouraging".  It's a question of how
much effort they will go to stamp it out.  If taking the
whole ship is a rare form of piracy, they may just decide
it's cheaper to just insure the ship.

>>Well, we don't take 1% of our military budget and divert
>>it to eliminating bank robbery either.  At that rate
>>you could have a guy behind a bullet proof shield ready
>>to shoot any bank robber.
>
>That point has been argued a lot. We disagree on it. I don't believe 1%
>is needed. The reason why we don't divert that much to preventing bank
>robbery, is because that much isn't needed! It's inherently risky and
>difficult to rob a bank of a large amount of cash without getting caught.

Well, perhaps you are in agreement with me but don't know it.  What
we have diverted is enough to make bank robbery uncommon enough
that it isn't a big deal, so we don't divert more resources because
it isn't worth the cost to eliminate it completely.  Similary,
simply calculating that is would take only 1% to do something
that would appear to wipe it the type of crime and assuming
that it would happen because 1% is "too small to miss" is
overly simplistic.

>>Well, it is no more difficult than fencing today or that smugglers,
>>etc. will have to do.  (In fact, that is why smugglers are good
>>to engage in piracy, they already have contacts to fence goods
>>and they already have a reason to arm their ships to stop rival
>>smugglers from taking their stuff).

>Ah, but it *is* more difficult! Most modern fences deal in consumer
>products the public wants, in a local area. The sheer vastness of the
>Imperium means that there are several times as many markets. And many
>cargos aren't easy-to-sell consumer items, but specialized
>pharmaceuticals, information, raw materials, custom manufactured items...

I see this as working the other way.  It is more difficult to sell
something in a local area than moving to some unknown market
some distance away (which is why hot items are often transported
to other parts of the world for sale).  The fact the these
products are being shipped is evidence that they are wanted
on different worlds.

>Smugglers *know* what their buyer wants, and try to procure it. A pirate
>has to have foreknowledge of what its target is carrying, as well as
>knowledge of what its contacts want to sell.

Yeah, that is why he only gets 50%.  He sells it to someone
who can find a buyer.  The is that all this is true of stolen
goods today and the fact is that people who steal works of
art, information, custom items can find ways to sell them.

>>This falls under the heading of things you can assume if you
>>want to make piracy harder.  Even if you want to assume it,
>>you still have the fact that work around will exist and smuggling
>>is also canon.

>Why wouldn't the Imperium use the latest technology to track the trade of
>goods

Because of the same reason that we don't (and believe me, we don't
even come close to using the available technology to stop theft).
Because the amount of crime isn't worth the cost and bother
of putting specialized trackers on every item and tracking
where it goes.  Especialy since there has never been such
a measure for which a counter measure couldn't be found
and so it will only have a partial effect.

>Even now, on earth, cargo manifests are very
>specific for goods crossing borders. You have to know where the stuff
>comes from, and what route it took.

Yeah, and this is very easy to circumvent by smugglers and
fencers.

>What if there were an infestation of rabbits on Rhylanor? A bad batch of
>pharmaceuticals? Defective grapple-grommits? How do you find out where it
>came from? We're talking trade between _worlds_ here. Self contained
>ecosystems. It's imperative to trace the transfer of goods!

Well, the fact that smuggling is canon does mean that these things
can exist.  In any case, this is different than piracy, and even
much of smuggling, becuase where the goods ended up comes to
the attention of the Imperium along with a new problem needing
to be solved.  In most cases of fencing the good simply
disappear into the market place either by being bought by
someone who doesn't care if they are hot, or by someone who
doesn't know they are hot.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:11:32 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Mottoes

Death from <<Classified>>
Death from Having too Big a Mouth 
Death from an Accident. Yes, that's right, an Accident....

Secret Police mottoes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:09:13 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Death from ...

Doug Berry wrote:

>During the Gulf War, the Public Affairs Office of the 101st Air Assult
>Division had a little fun with the "mil-speak" being used to befuddle
>jounalists, and placed the following in front of their building:
>
>"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
>Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical of
>the Main Battle Area."
>
>I'd love to that translated into Vilani...

Looks to me like it may have already been translated _from_ Vilani...

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:14:07 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: WOW

Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?

3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V

Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!

Cripes, that's more than some sectors!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:21:04 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Kenji wrote:

>
>Roderick wrote:
>[snip]
[my stuff about Aslan females being the ones _really_ in charge snipped]
>>        In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
>>on the part of the females!  After all, male Aslan are not good things to
>>have around if they're trying to build a civilization...  so by whatever
>>means, they have just enough males to keep things going and meet military
>>requirements, while raising three times as many of the productive and
>>intelligent females.
>
>Ah, but dig a little deeper... and you'll find that it's all merely a
>cunning Sayat manipulation.  Who in turn are secretly controlled by the
>Hivers.  Who are themselves unwitting minions of Cth-- <squelch>

	Naw.  Seriously.  The Alsan males are really pretty well shut out
of everything but being political props, cannon fodder, and sperm donors.
They are capable of learning, but have a culture that forbids them from
doing so.  And their numbers are biologically limited.

	I say that the Aslan females have really, but really, won the
battle between the sexes, all the while leaving the males completely
oblivious to the fact that they're out of the loop.  Pretty smooth, all
told.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, November 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2070



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bilandian Fonts
Re: Cost of piracy suppressing
Re: Cost of piracy THE SOLUTION!!!!
Re: That three-letter word
Re: Transponders
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Re: FF&S2 disagrees with CSC re grav propulsion.  Uh oh.
Rumor
Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)
Re: WOW
Glenn Grant  Subject: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: WOW
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2063
Re: WOW
Is the Imperium driven buy economics?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:24:34 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bilandian Fonts

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>Robert Eaglestone wrote:

[snip all of it]

I don't see a real problem here.  I think Glenn's Bilanidin Bold is a very
sound system (<duck>), premised on the idea of an alphabet graphically
resembling "real Vilani script" and which can be used to transcribe Vilani
and Galanglic with (more-or-less) equal ease.  Robert's suggestions could
be routed towards the design of a "native" or "pure" Vilani script.

>> Why not have a diacritic which doubles vowels, and another
>> diacritic which softens consonants?
>
>I thought of this for the vowels, but I decided against it for two
>reasons: (1) The doubled vowels are distinct phonemes and therefore
>deserve their own glyph, and (2) I wanted to leave diacriticals for tone
>marking. It is "canon" that Vilani vowels have different tones, 6 to be
>exact, so having a diacritic for "length" of vowel and different one for
>"tone" could be confusing.

Gotta agree with this one pretty firmly.  There's very little "canonical"
information about Vilani, so there's no excuse not to incorporate it.

>Look in a dictionary, you'll find they each have their own symbol in the
>International Phonetic alphabet. kh = x and sh =  [thing that looks like
>an integration symbol]

An "esh" is what I hear it called.

>> Ooh ooh, Mistah Kottah, how about this if you want weird:
>> 26 half-characters, which form a letter when combined.
>> This makes life horribly difficult for transcription, of course.
>> But it allows an oodle of combinations.
>
>That's a good idea, Eppstein, and its what we imagined the "orginal"
>Vilani would be similar to. Something like the Korean Hangul alphabet,
>where to sounds join to form a single glyph for each syllable.
>
>Pretty difficult to practically use on english computers tho'. :)
>
>MAYBE sometime I'll design a Hangul-like alphabet with the included
>keyboard resources for Mac, so it's easy to type. (Type "sa" and get one
>glyph). I have no frigging idea how to create "dead-keys" on the PC,
>though.

Someone, somewhere, has managed it at least once.  The Korean Language Kit
for Mac is pretty easy to use, and I think is technically closest to what
you guys are talking about here.  I think there's pretty good PC-platform
han'gul software, too.  Indic-type alphabets (with vowels as diacritics,
and in many cases compound consonant characters) are also pretty well
computerized.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:32:53 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppressing

Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:29:57 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>David P. Summers writes:
>>Well, we don't take 1% of our military budget and divert
>>it to eliminating bank robbery either.  At that rate
>>you could have a guy behind a bullet proof shield ready
>>to shoot any bank robber.

>That is partly because you have a law forbidding your military from
>performing law enforcement and partly because of what we in Denmark
>call "account thinking" -- the people who could do something don't
>do it because it is not what their money is allocated to them to do.
>It is 'somebody else's problem'.

Yeah, but why?  If you are worried about military being
ill suited crime suppression that applies to the piracy
to ("sorry sir, we blew up both the pirate and the merchant").
In any case, if the 1% is low enough that you will never miss
it, then it doesn't matter if you just take the money
and hire policeman rather than hiring a military
policeman and transfering him.

>the people who could do something don't
>do it because it is not what their money is allocated to them to do.
>It is 'somebody else's problem'.

Which is exactly a reason why the Imperium wouldn't use
vessels with military missions to stop piracy.

>>This falls under the heading of things you can assume if you
>>want to make piracy harder.

>Or if you want your Traveller universe to resemble a logical extrapolation
>of the Real Universe of today.

Well, many of these assumptions are _not_ logical extrapolations.
(Whe don't have jump points to try and funnel ships through and
we don't use all available technology to track shipments to
stop theft).  Even beyond that people are, in fact, assuming
that things will "logically" extrapolate a certain way.  There
are other ways of logically extrapolating that are just as
legitimate.  (and clearly the best way of extrapolating is
in dispute).

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:19:18 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy THE SOLUTION!!!!

Bruce Johnson wrote:
[snip]
>Bruce Johnson (Who has thought all along that this is one of those
>agree-to-disagree things like near-c feudaltech Virocks, and proposes

Couldn't agree more.

>whacking all involved on the head with all four books of the Hitchkikers
>Guide trilogy until they drop the subject. This is, of course, the special
>Sayat modified FSY version of the Trilogy, with the Universe Collapser
>spinal mount ;-)

Just to clarify:  the Sayat would probably mount a Universe Flogger or
Cosmic Paddler or something of the sort.  It's looking more and more to
them as though the Universe has been very, very bad indeed.  If a sound
spanking doesn't reform it -- well, then, they'll just have to wring its
neck or drown it in a bucket of water.  Pity, but what else can you do?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: That three-letter word

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
>
>>
>>Roderick wrote:
>>[snip]
[snip again]
>>Ah, but dig a little deeper... and you'll find that it's all merely a
>>cunning Sayat manipulation.  Who in turn are secretly controlled by the
>>Hivers.  Who are themselves unwitting minions of Cth-- <squelch>
>
>        Naw.  Seriously.  The Alsan males are really pretty well shut out
>of everything but being political props, cannon fodder, and sperm donors.
>They are capable of learning, but have a culture that forbids them from
>doing so.  And their numbers are biologically limited.
>
>        I say that the Aslan females have really, but really, won the
>battle between the sexes, all the while leaving the males completely
>oblivious to the fact that they're out of the loop.  Pretty smooth, all
>told.

Seriously, I'm strongly inclined to adopt your theory as the "real story".
It's efficient and plausible, _and_ entertaining -- all that a theory
really needs, when you get right down to it.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:49:23 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Transponders

At 04:33 PM 11/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Tim Connors writes:
>
>>I thought an earlier posting gave the Imperial pop as 10 to the 16th people
>
>If so it must have been a mistake.
>
>>but 15 trillion is only 10 to the 13th people. If the latter number is
>>correct, then some calculations on the piracy thread may not be accurate.
>
>All my calculations have been made with the 15 trillion figure (excepting
>any one where I've made decimal errors, of course ;-)
>
>>Could someone clarify the Imperial total population, please? My own
>>calculations yield a value of 1.8 times ten to the thirteenth people, but
>>I am not certain of the basis for these calculations and would appreciate
>>seeing a restatement of the underlying criteria.
>
>I'm 99% sure that I have seen the 15 trillion figure somewhere in an
>official publication, but the last time I tried to track down the
>reference, I failed to find it. Wildstar did some calculations where
>he actually summed up the populations of the individual planets and
>IIRC he arrived at 16 trillion, but I forget just what source he got
>the information from.
>
>15 trillion is an average of 1.5 billion per planet, which is of the
>same order of magnitude as the average you get from the world generation
>system (exact figure depends on how you establish the population multiplier
>for pop A worlds), so I'm going to stick to that for the moment.
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>
	Thanks, I got 1.7997 times 10 to the 13th using average
	figures from the world generation system (each pop level
	has an average pop of 5 times 10 to the pop figure). Nice 
	to know that the bowl of grey goo I use for brains is still
	marginally functional.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:33:53 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:25 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Well, I've said before large organization don't just blow away 1% of their
>>resources like that.

>And neither does the Imperial Navy "blow" any amount of their resources by
>using their ships. They get a certain amount of money each year. If the
>setup is anything like the institutions here in Denmark, any part of
>their budget that they don't use is simply lost (and their next year's
>budget propably cut).

Yeah, but they want to use that 1% to achieve what they have been
tasked to.  The US military would not be happy to be forced to
use 1% of their budget to guard banks.  Neither would they
be happy if, during the cold war, you took 1% of the money
assigned to NATO duties and reallocated them to coast guard
duties.

[The rest of this is junk about posting tatics.  It is of
limited interest and is my last reply....]

>Let me quote from about 20 lines above in your very same posting:

>"Yeah, but it is, in fact, reasonable that pirates will concentrate on
>taking cargoes (less determined oppostion, etc. this has been debated
>>and look at the list archive for discussion)."

>If you can see a difference between that statement and to take something
>that we both know we disagree on, and have beaten into the ground several
>times already, and baldly assert them to be true in a reply to posts on
>another point, then you are a far more subtle man than I am.

I'm sorry, but ...
a) Saying something is "reasonalbe" is not the same thing as
saying (as you _have_ done) that things are a certain way.
b) This is not a point that the person I was replying to
and I had beaten to death and I am not taking an assertion
that I made days, or weeks ago, that has been responded
to several times and simply repeating it as fact.  (and
you do, in fact, do that a lot)  It's not that fact that
you don't always stick "IMO" or such on what you post.
It's that you take things that I have responded to and
simply reassert the original post as if it had never
been contested.  This means you either expect me to
just accept it or respond all over again with the
same arguements (which is a huge waste of time).

>(Now, if I could actually convince him...) It just bugs the hell out of me
>when he baldly states a contested opinion as an uncontested truth.

Well, I would say that you should get out of a glass house
before you throw this particular rock.

>There's
>always the chance that some unfortunate neophyte will believe him... ;-)

Well, we all have to accept that other people we listen to
someone you disagree with and agree with him (unless one
plans on trying to refuting every single post you don't
agree with, which I think we both agree would be a fanatical
postion).  You may notice that I don't reply to your
responses to other people as near as often as you do to mine.

>And I note that I'm not the only one that still responds to David. I've
>been unable to keep up with my e-mail, but I note that most of his most
>recent batch of assertations have been dealt with by others. How many
>of you believes that your reply will convince David?

Hans, there are people responding on both sides.  I'm not
the only one that responds to your posts either.  (In
fact, it is not uncommon that I am not the most frequent
"pro piracy" poster here).  Maybe you might want to look
in you mirror if you want to start looking for people
who are closed minded.
[It is a sad fact that a post will almost always end
up with someone thinking that a long thread where
two sides have been unable to agree means that the
"other side" is being closed minded.]

>"Jumping in". Now there's a value-loaded expression if ever I saw one.
>All I can say is that if someone posts to the list, then I consider the
>post aimed just as much at me as at any other reciepient of the net. If
>you want private discussions I suggest that private e-mail would be
>more appropiate. If you keep posting things I disagree strongly with
>to the list, then I will propably resond, and I don't feel the least
>bit guilty about it.

It's not the fact that you still participate in the thread that
is a problem.  It that you simply reassert, in responses directed
specifically at what I wrote, things you know I have already
responded to.  You also do this by bringing up a part of the
piracy isuse that was not what I was responding to (like
your turning the Gas Giant thread back to piracy).

Yes, you have a right to do this.  It is a free country.
I also have a right to call you on the fact that your
are doing it and also point out that the fact that I am
not willing to go into the subject is because we
have beaten it to death.

>>From the amount of other people still posting on the subject it appears that
>there is still some meat on the bone.

A bit.  Though much of it is just rehashing...

>On most of the subjects that you and I have beaten to death, you have
>posted an initial statement with which I have disagreed. I have responded
>with an objection to which you have responded with what I regard as an
>equally flawed reply. Eventually you have come to a point where you have
>either ignored a posting or claimed that it boiled down to a mere
>difference of opinion, something that I usually don't agree with you
>about.

And what am I supposed to do?  Every single time I want to discuss
this subject with anyone else I have to run through the entire
subject with you all over again?  I just don't have that kind
of time.  Of course I point out that we haven't been able to agree
with in the past.  And yes Hans, everything we both post _is_
opinion and our diagreements _are_ differences in opinion.

>Well, every so often something new does occur.

And this is not what I'm complaining about.  If you just
wouldn't try and keep raising the same points over and
over we all would save time and bandwidth.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:57:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 disagrees with CSC re grav propulsion.  Uh oh.

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> When last I checked, the maximum acceleration that contragrav could give
> you at TL 12 was about a tenth of a G.
> 
> This translates into a fairly slow maximum speed, and nothing like the 3000
> kph grav fighters I used to design with CSC.
> 
> IIRC, Dave Golden said that this was, indeed, the idea, and that you need
> thrusters to shove something through the air without fuel cost and major
> signature.  ISTR that he also suggested that a section on prop/fan engines
> powered by the fusion power plant might be in order as well.  While I like
> the idea, it seems like we are stuck with CG being able to shove things at
> fairly high speed.
> 
> How do we reconcile these two systems?  Whine whine whine?
> 
> My suggestion would be modifying FF&S to make CG not limited by local
> gravity.  This, aside from the stacking compensators, looks like the major
> thing not allowed.  Since i have never allowed stacked compensators in my
> games, it does not bother me to just drop that from the CSC system.
> 

Yes, except it was me that whined about wanting ducted fans for
propulsion. I have some equations about that, which if things are workking
right, I can take to Trav-tech for a discussion.

an old version of the FFS2 beta didn't have that bit about limiting CG to
gravity, which led to my 'all CG' designs that would do 3 G horizontally,
and something like 20 straight up. The thrust would change as
your vector got closer to the vertical because I assumed that the
percentage of thrust you could direct to your vector changed from a few
percent at perpendicular to the gravity vector, to 100% at parallel to the 
gravity vector.

CSC assumes that CG is a completely vectorable force. so you can direct
any percentage you want at any vector...this leads to much more
airframe-ish designs, because as you vector gees to thrust, you'll need to
reduce lift. You can either simply over-power the design (say 4 gee
thrusters, with 1 always vectored parallel to gravity to provide lift) or
have a lifting body or winglets that provide some lift as you move faster
through the air.

FFS 2 is for better or worse, different. (sigh)

Of course, it'll be different when Rob gets his FFS2 program going so that
we can start cranking out designs by the bucketful with that as well as
CSC ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:01:49 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Rumor

Frank,

FYI, Allan Varney has posted the following on the restricted game industry
discussion board.

********

Subj:  Fleer/SkyBox games RIP?
Date:  97-11-06 19:43:57 EST
From:  APVarney        

I heard secondhand that Fleer/SkyBox, the division of Marvel that sells the
OVERPOWER trading card game, has shut down the game and fired the two staff
designers (Steve Domzalski and Ron Perazza). Any info, anyone?
  -- Allen Varney

********

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:12:59 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression (Was: Piracy -- the new era!)

At 04:42 PM 11/6/97 -0600, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
....
>The "bottom" of the scale is relatively equivalent to todays "bottom".
>The analogy doesn't hold. The top could be infinite and it wouldn't
>matter. To use an example, just because Bill Gates is worth tens of
>billions doesn't mean he won't notice it if someone walks in and steals
>the 10 million dollar Leonardo da Vinci notebooks.
>
>In the same vein, the Imperium *because* it is a bureaucracy spanning
>thousands of worlds, (it's everywhere!) *will* get involved. If an item
>worth the yearly salary of 1000 of its citizens is stolen, it is a cause
>of concern.

Glenn has raised a very important point here, for reasons other than those
of piracy.

Consider - you can determine the net importance of a crime, or a factory,
or anything else by looking at the resources invested.  If, on the average,
those resources are better invested elsewhere, then they _will_ be,
eventually.  Likewise, if something affects a substantial number of people,
then they are going to be interested in it, at some remove.

Lets make this a concrete example - a ship with 1000 fusion plus reactors
in the hold lands.  On Sylea, these 70 kw/95 hp generators have a total
value of 1MCr, more or less.  On a planet a few jumps away at TL7, they
might be worth a hundred times as much or more, but the planet has only
perhaps 6 MCr to cough up for this cargo.

Now, how significant is this event?  Will the players who run the ship hear
about it when they return again?  Will they hear about it back on Sylea?
Will the Sylean Trade Protectorate Board hear about it, and investigate
just the players got their hands on a full thousand of them?

Consider that this low tech planet probably has a PCGDP of perhaps .9^5 or
6000 Cr.  As a result, this cargo represents the annual trade of perhaps a
thousand people.  Perhaps a hundred people might get laid off to pay for
it.  Alternatively, the company that gets it might be able to hire a
hundred more due to increased productivity and lower energy costs.

From this, we can see that this is likely a one day wonder on this planet.
The people in question will remember longer, but the average citizen will
not notice for long.  It is about the equivalent of a new small business
doing a public offering, or a tract of homes going up.  Important if you
are near, but not outside that.

On Sylea, the cargo cost them a megacredit, which means an administrative
load of 10% would imply the annual income of at most ten people were paid
by this cargo purchase, and likely less.  I understand the administrative
load of taxes, etc., in the present day is closer to 3%, so while it is
likely that this purchase paid for a reasonable share of longshoremen,
stevedores, cargo masters, customs inspectors, and so on, it likely did not
take more than a day out of their lives.

Now, assume that a loss claim is filed.  The insurance company knows that
fraud applies to roughly one insurance claim in ten today, so they see this
cargo as having an expected fraud loss of 100k.  As a result, if it is
lost, it might get up to ten person years of work tracking down the claim,
but it probably gets closer to one.

By contrast, my totalled car cost them $14K, and so was worth about $1.4K
of effort to prevent a false claim.  The adjuster apparently spent two full
days on the case.  He has 260 work days a year, and probably makes $50k, so
$385 of his time.  This implies that they spent between a third and a
quarter of the expected loss making sure it was a real loss.

Now, on to the ship that carried the cargo.  It is worth 50 MCr.  It has to
be generating a reasonable return on the capital it represents, so assume
that the yearly return is roughly 3%, or 1.5 MCr, so this one cargo
represents the approximate value of the annual profit of the ship owner.
This shows just how interested the average ship owner would be in a single
cargo - if one write off eats their profit for the entire year, they are
not going to be very cavalier about it.  This vessel represents an annual
income stream that would employ 1500 people, so ship liberty ports must be
pretty nice, or perhaps ship ports have lots of costs associated.

Finally, the ship itself represents something like fifty times the value of
its contents.  This is the annual product of 50 thousand people, and is
going to command respect on the same order.  For example, it will be about
as important as several major office buildings, a new mall, a dozen small
companies, or one medium sized company.  Thus, if that small ship is
sitting on the pad, and there is even a small chance of loss, then there is
likely to be a guard on it.  It is a bit hard to steal, so it is not going
to be bristling with guards, but even a 1% chance of loss per year would
employ 500 people to prevent.  I suspect most ports would have at least one
or two guards per ship.  Possibly not out in front of them, but certainly
somewhere out there.

So, the cargo does not make the headlines, but the ship does.  If we drop
the price of the ship substantially, such that the ratio of contents to
container price comes closer to 1:1, then we can make the tramp freighter
less of a news item, but a large vessel coming into port is going to be a
major event.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 00:36:20 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: WOW

At 17:14 07/11/97 -0500, Glenn Crawford wrote:
>
>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>
	Wow indeed. And look at the size of it, d'you reckon all the people here
are like really small? Huh huh! Is the tech too low to support lots of
orbital habitats? I think it may indeed be. So how do all these people live
and survive on a world that it just 2,000 miles across? Not too mention a
lack of decent atmosphere too, and an apparently highly restrictive gov and
law level too? What the hell must this place be like???




	See ya...

Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Park Lane Stand - Block 44, Row 14, Seat 176

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:56:45 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Glenn Grant  Subject: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

Glenn Grant

> Subject: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

> HOW TO SURVIVE YOUR STINT IN FEDERAL SERVICE

> Twenty useful tips brought to you by Gen. Paul Verhoven, C in C...

Is this based on seeing the movie or on the Sci-Fi Channel's "The Making
of..." teasers?

As for myself, I plan on temporarily blanking the novel from my mind and
enjoying the special effects. 

On a slightly different topic, I get a little peeved at war movies that have
many of the same klunkers.

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:46:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: WOW

At 05:14 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>
>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>
>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!

That's also 63,000 people per square mile!
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 01:49:13 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2063

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:09 -0500, "Robert Eaglestone"
<eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

>Is there really a TravLang mailing list? =20
>May I be included in it??

There sure is, and you sure can.  Even though I'm the list owner,
I don't have the subscription procedure memorized; you can find
it at the Freelance Traveller web site,
http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller, and follow the
links for >InfoCenter< and >Traveller on the 'Net<.  I do recall
that the software, although not truly LISTSERV, is close enough
that you can use LISTSERV instructions with only minimal
opportunity for trouble.  The list name really is travlang, and
focuses on the development of languages for Traveller's
significant races.  The current project is Vilani.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:40:05 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: WOW

Glenn Crawford wrote:

>
>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>
>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>
>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>
>Cripes, that's more than some sectors!


Hm.   This gives us a routine quality starport, a planet 3200 km in
diameter, a very thin, tainted atmosphere, with 60% hydrosphere (probably
ice cover given it's around a type M star), 800 billion people (yeek),
government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4 manual; it's
gotta be ugly), and a Law Level off the map.  Presumably flatulence in
elevators is a capital crime here.  Tech level is 9.

	I could see this as being one enormous habitat that used to be a
planet.  A cold-cored mostly Nickel-Iron body that's been hollowed out all
the way down to its core, with the excavated material used to build
upwards.  The place is a police state from hell, with no privacy or civil
rights of any sort.  Living quarters for all but the powerful consist of
coffin apartments.  Think Chung Kuo, only much, much, much worse.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 21:51:37 -0500
From: chris <qwerty@spacey.net>
Subject: Is the Imperium driven buy economics?

  This pirate question has brought something up that i would like to see
cleared up.
1.  How many merchant ships are there in the imperium?
Fact  The Imperium uses a very small percent of its income to build a truly
stupid amount of war ships. Which brings the next question...
2.  What percent does the imperium use to "subsidize" trade?
Fact with out interstellar trade you have a Long night and thus no empire. 

  The reason i ask is that from my first look at the money involved ot
looked like there was twice the tonnage of merchant ships to military ships
with 5 to ten times the number of ships at the merchant end of the deal.
On further thought it may be that i am several orders of magnitude off.

   The numbers support thosands of ships coming and going from your average
world a day. This does not count the tens of thousands of star ships that
are waiting for cargos or waiting the canical one week between jumps.
With hundreeds of ships being built every day and hundreds disapearing
every week(skip,misjump,pirated,etc.),
I think big brother would have a hard job. 


  As a side note if a yacht cost 80 million US. dollars how many people on
earth could afford one?
If a high passage cost a years salery how many people do you think would go
on a raimen and maceroni and cheese diet till they could get the ticket?

                                                          qwerty@spacey.net
                                                          my kingdom for a
spell checker
                                                          or better yet a
voice diction program.
                                              chris watson qwerty@spacey.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2070
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 8 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2071



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2063
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Transponders
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
Re: Old pulsars
Re: Death from ...
Re: WOW
Re: Selling stolen cargo
Review: Starship Troopers (not quite SPOILERS)
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
SSDS Missile question
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: WOW
CSC Design Grumman Goose seaplane
Re: FF&S Spreadsheet V1.2 available
Berry Grav Skid (TL11)
Berriette Grav Skid (TL11)
Re: WOW

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:47:11 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2063

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:09 -0500, "Robert Eaglestone"
><eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:
>
>>Is there really a TravLang mailing list?
>>May I be included in it??
>
>There sure is, and you sure can.  Even though I'm the list owner,
>I don't have the subscription procedure memorized; you can find
>it at the Freelance Traveller web site,
>http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller, and follow the
>links for >InfoCenter< and >Traveller on the 'Net<.  I do recall
>that the software, although not truly LISTSERV, is close enough
>that you can use LISTSERV instructions with only minimal
>opportunity for trouble.  The list name really is travlang, and
>focuses on the development of languages for Traveller's
>significant races.  The current project is Vilani.

I've dug it up: send a message to maiser@earth.execnet.com with a body of
"subscribe travlang Your Name"

There's also an incredibly preliminary TravLang website up at
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662> which should, by dawn PDT,
have drafts of phonology and morphology up and readable.  Assuming I don't
pass out first.  I am being oppressed by a pint of patriarchy in the form
of Mr. James Walker.  And I curiously lack the Sayat mechanism for dealing
with the same.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:44:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In mail you write:

> Another thing: Would the letterforms of this typeface be easy to handwrite?
> One of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of imanginary typefaces
> are their inefficiency of form. It's just so difficult to write in Aurabesh
> (the Star Wars font) or Klingo!
>
> Of course, I am not certain how much of this is a cultural effect -- maybe
> if you grow up with it, you learn how to write the letterforms of any
> language quickly.

You are making an assumption. Namely that large numbers of people had
to do their own writing. 

Consider Mayan, Chinese, and the like. Mayan is especially interesting,
as it is an "alphabetic" language, yet not "easy" to write (except for
numbers). 

Vilani society strikes me as the type that would have had limited
literacy until fairly late. At least as far as writing goes. Reading is
a different matter. And given the way Vilani tend to specialize, they
may have kept the profession of "scribe" up until the invention of the
typewriter. If you wanted something written, you go to a scribe and he
writes it for you.

People wouldn't use shopping lists and the like, they'd just memorize
things easily. This is common in pre-literate cultures. 

I wonder if the scribe "caste" became something like computer
programmers? 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:02:56 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transponders

In a message dated 97-11-07 12:54:42 EST, rancke@diku.dk writes:

<< I'm 99% sure that I have seen the 15 trillion figure somewhere in an
 official publication, but the last time I tried to track down the
 reference, I failed to find it.  >>


I quote Traveller's Digest #10, DGP:

Scout Service Statistics for the Second Imperial Grand Survey

Total Systems: 8,976
Total Population:  15,769,900,000,000
Number of Double Systems: 2221
Total Worlds:  11,197

The sector w/ the most population: Solomani Rim (310 Systems,
1,613,300,000,000)
The sector w/ the least:  Glimmerdrift Reaches (42 Systems, 106,300,000,000)

If anyone desires, I will be willing to post the entire survey list (27
sectors) if they don't have access to Trav Digest

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:16:09 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

In a message dated 97-11-07 14:33:06 EST, dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Just wait'll you get a load of "Psychic Gestapo Officer Doogie Hauser"...
>>


I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that thought that scene screamed
"Gestapo!!!" ...

But I personally thought the movie stayed closer to Heinlien than any of us
had any right to expect (after all, it came from Hollywood!).  It wasn't the
book, by any means...but it was most enjoyable!!!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:59:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069

Roderick wrote:
>        In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
>on the part of the females!

Well, if you asked the average woman or man which would they prefer,
to have only one person of the opposite gender for each of the
them, or to have three persons of the opposite gender for each
one of you, what do you think they would say?  :-)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:08:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Old pulsars

In mail you write:

> Other experts can probably provide more detail, but...generally by
> the time a pulsar is a few million years old its rotation will have
> slowed enough that it's not producing pulses any more. After that
> it'll be nearly undetectable - the surface will be quite hot but the
> surface area is so small that its luminosity is essentially zero. No
> non-pulsar neutron star has currently been detected (that I know of);
> you'd have to pick it up through gravitational microlensing or
> suchlike. There was a recent HST paper about flux measurements from
> the surface of a relatively old pulsar - Pavlov, Welty and Cordova
> 1997 ApJ 489 (November 1) L75; I think they got a surface temperature
> of 10^6 kelvin. Note that the crab-style nebula will be gone long
> before 10^6 years (particularly since the pulsar often gets a few
> hundred or thousand km/s of kick...)

Good, it's looking like I *can* use it. :-)

> The detected pulsar planets are in the moon - earth mass range, with
> some small hint of a jupiter-mass companion in a very wide orbit.

Any speculation as to densities? I'm *assuming* that they'll be fairly
dense as the dynamics of the system would tend to kick gas out of the
system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:06:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Death from ...

In mail you write:

> During the Gulf War, the Public Affairs Office of the 101st Air Assult
> Division had a little fun with the "mil-speak" being used to befuddle
> jounalists, and placed the following in front of their building:
>
> "Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
> Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical of
> the Main Battle Area."
>
> I'd love to that translated into Vilani...

I'd like to see it translated into *English*...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:58:47 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: WOW

> Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First
Survey)?
> 
> 3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
> 
> Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
> 
> Cripes, that's more than some sectors!


It certainly puts Chung Kuo and O.S. Card's Core to shame.

I wonder how many SDBs they have?

<puts hands over ears and runs for the door>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:06:39 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Selling stolen cargo

>I think a reasonable assumption would be that a pirate would know where
>to sell a stolen cargo, but that he would not usually get more than the
>percentage robbers commonly get today (10-20% if the crime authors I've
>read are right).

Generally, a fence will give about 1/3rd of the selling price (the retail
price) and turn around and sell it for 50-70% of the retail price.  But,
obviously, there are no hard and fast rules for this :)

Semo 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:18:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Review: Starship Troopers (not quite SPOILERS)

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>As for myself, I plan on temporarily blanking the novel from my mind and
>enjoying the special effects. 

Probably the best move.  Avoid the 'suck factor'!  If you have high
expectation for a film and it doesn't live up to them then it REALLY
sucks (of course if it does live up to them then you are really
excited!).  On the other hand, if you manage to reduce the level of
expectations to something less, then you will be less disappointed if 
it isn't what you expect (much easier to say than do!).  

Saw it this evening and managed to reduce the expectations to the
lowest level (the movie IS NOT the book).  Thus I enjoyed it.  There
was enough of the book left in that I could.  IMHO (of course.)  

>On a slightly different topic, I get a little peeved at war movies that have
>many of the same klunkers.

Why is it that they have to bunch up? (of course I know the reason, if
they spread out like they teach at every infantry school in the world
- - like they taught me! -  then the characters won't fit on the
screen!) Ah well. If we wrote the scripts then we wouldn't make enough
money to continue making them!

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the year of our Lord 1314, patriots of Scotland, starving and 
outnumbered, charged the fields of Bannockburn.  They fought like 
warrior-poets.  They fought like Scotsmen.  And won their freedom.  
Forever."  	Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:21:22 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

<snippage of many posts with good and valid points>


I suppose I was definitely looking at this through my own cultural filters.
I was thinking of all of those terrible ads I have to re-do because the
copy comes in all-caps (I assume for emphasis, although if *everything* is
capitalized then *nothing* stands out). I was also thinking about it from
my own aesthetic. I am selfish. I want Bilandin to be easy to read (and
pretty to look at) for me! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:06:10 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-11-07 14:33:06 EST, dberry@hooked.net writes:
> 
> << Just wait'll you get a load of "Psychic Gestapo Officer Doogie Hauser"...
> >>
> 
> I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that thought that scene screamed
> "Gestapo!!!" ...
> 
> But I personally thought the movie stayed closer to Heinlien than any of us
> had any right to expect (after all, it came from Hollywood!).  It wasn't the
> book, by any means...but it was most enjoyable!!!
> 
> Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

I totally agree.  I just saw the movie, and from what I remember of the
book, I thought the movie followed it as much as HollyWood ever allows a
movie to.  Yes, the uniforms were very Nazi, and "Carl" the "PT", his
uniform smacked of the S.S.

I hated to see Dizzie get killed.  I really felt for the characters and
the visual effects were stupendous, so all-in-all I thought it was very
well done.  Certainly not for the faint of heart though.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 06:14:04 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

Loren Wiseman asks,

>> HOW TO SURVIVE YOUR STINT IN FEDERAL SERVICE
>> Twenty useful tips brought to you by Gen. Paul Verhoven, C in C...
>
>Is this based on seeing the movie or on the Sci-Fi Channel's "The Making
>of..." teasers?

Went to a preview showing here in Montreal, on Wednesday. Glad I didn't
have to actually pay to see this monstrosity.

>As for myself, I plan on temporarily blanking the novel from my mind and
>enjoying the special effects. 

I did actually enjoy chunks of the film. The effects are truly fine - some
of the starship shots in particular. But those of my friends who were fans
of the book were, not surprisingly, ready to hunt down Verhoeven and feed
him to the Bugs.

>On a slightly different topic, I get a little peeved at war movies that have
>many of the same klunkers.

Roderick's posting of his CSC design for an anti-Bug tank is perhaps the
most apt comment. After the film-makers eliminated the power suits from the
story, they didn't bother explaining why all these vulnerable grunts were
being dumped onto the planet with insufficient armored support. There *is*
some reference to the Fleet "glassing the planet" prior to the insertion of
troops, and a few brief shots of fighters taking out Bugs, but once the
troops are on the ground, they seem to be entirely on their own.

This is the least of the film's problems, however.

In interviews, Verhoeven is claiming that the film's overt Naziness is
intended as subversive ironic commentary on the violence of American pop
culture. This defence is just bollocks. Like _Robocop_ and especially
_Total Recall_, _Troopers_ blatantly panders to the violent tendencies it
claims to be subverting. Verhoeven's a hypocrite too unsubtle to notice the
obvious flaws in his artistic strategy.

I would have some respect for him if he would just admit he likes to make
gore-filled brainless trash. Because his movies are about as subversive as
NRA billboards.

+ GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:52:44 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: SSDS Missile question

I am currently working on a computer application (PC, Microsoft Access) for
creating ships using the rules from Starships. I have a question for the=
 list:

* How are the statistics for missiles treated?

The tables for missile turrets give missile size (in m^3) and the number of
ready missiles.

The table for missile bays give the number of launchers, and the number of
reloads per launcher.

Then, the text says that I should calculate the number of missiles in ready
storage. This should be the number of turrets times the number of ready
missiles for turrets, or the number of launchers times the number of reloads
per launcher for missile bays.

In parentesis I should have the number of missiles that can be controlled in
flight at any one time. How do I calculate this number?

Any answer would be helpful, and I would also be happy if you pointed out
eventual misunderstandings on my part.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 04:42:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 06:14 AM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I did actually enjoy chunks of the film. The effects are truly fine - some
>of the starship shots in particular. But those of my friends who were fans
>of the book were, not surprisingly, ready to hunt down Verhoeven and feed
>him to the Bugs.

Too good for him.

>>On a slightly different topic, I get a little peeved at war movies that
>>have many of the same klunkers.

>Roderick's posting of his CSC design for an anti-Bug tank is perhaps the
>most apt comment. After the film-makers eliminated the power suits from the
>story, they didn't bother explaining why all these vulnerable grunts were
>being dumped onto the planet with insufficient armored support. There *is*
>some reference to the Fleet "glassing the planet" prior to the insertion of
>troops, and a few brief shots of fighters taking out Bugs, but once the
>troops are on the ground, they seem to be entirely on their own.

Considering that the could land Fort Zinder-neuf, I was really waiting for
the tanks.  Hell, a couple of M-163 Vulcans would have helped out immensely.

>This is the least of the film's problems, however.

From my perspective, the biggest problem seems to be that they never
actually spoke to a soldier about the combat sequences.  Several times, I
wanted to stand up and scream "spread out!, Get your interval, and watch
the perimeter!"  These guys were packed so together so tightly, I had to
wonder if Verhoven had broken his wide-angle lens..

>In interviews, Verhoeven is claiming that the film's overt Naziness is
>intended as subversive ironic commentary on the violence of American pop
>culture. This defence is just bollocks. Like _Robocop_ and especially
>_Total Recall_, _Troopers_ blatantly panders to the violent tendencies it
>claims to be subverting. Verhoeven's a hypocrite too unsubtle to notice the
>obvious flaws in his artistic strategy.

Yeah.  One of the people at the sneak was a 14-year-old brother of one of
the managers, he thought the gore was cool.  I find that sad.

>I would have some respect for him if he would just admit he likes to make
>gore-filled brainless trash. Because his movies are about as subversive as
>NRA billboards.

Like John Carpenter?  He once was asked what the deeper meaning of "The
Thing" was.  He replied that he made it to scare people, if they want deep
thoughts, read Kant.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 09:26:29 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

>>>7. Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool;
>Doug Berry replied:
>Glenn, with your kind permission, I'm stealing this for a .sig...

There were several Starship Trooper rumor sites up during the filming.
One of the articles had to do with the uniforms.  Since they weren't 
doing the classic Mobile Infantry Armor, they needed a new look.
It seems that the Hollywood motto is, "If you want snappy uniforms,
look to the Third Reich."

A member of my wife's family, a retired member of the U.S. Army Air Corps,
did part of his war-time service in neutral Ireland.  His comments about
the German soliders he saw, "Snappy dressers."


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 14:28:22 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: WOW

>Wow indeed. And look at the size of it, d'you reckon all the people here
>are like really small? Huh huh! Is the tech too low to support lots of
>orbital habitats? I think it may indeed be. So how do all these people live
>and survive on a world that it just 2,000 miles across? Not too mention a
>lack of decent atmosphere too, and an apparently highly restrictive gov and
>law level too? What the hell must this place be like???

Don't you mean: "What hell is this place like?" :-)

Seriously, tech 9 can support orbital habitats, but the cost of these would
be high.  I see:

- - orbital habitats for the elite
- - lots and lots of really big archologies
- - a population living on yeast paste and, once a month, roast guinea pig
- - large areas get 'abandonned', which means that the police and life support
units no longer go there - massive crime for a while, until everyone dies of
life support failure (now THIS is a place for you angst-filled cyberpunk
types to play!)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:34:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: CSC Design Grumman Goose seaplane

Grumman Goose (TL6)
Designed by Bruce Johnson

Summary:
     3.00 displacement ton wedge airframe;  5.99 tonnes;  kCr 609
Chassis:
     42.0 kL wedge airframe (10 m long x 4.3 m wide x 2.8 m high, wingspan
19 m);  Structure: 876 kg of light alloy, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     2x 330 kW TL5 Imp. Internal Combustion power plants;  Fuel: 530 L of
high-grade hcarb (530 kg), 6 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 660 kW aircraft; Maximum Speed: 218 km/h; 
Take-Off Speed: 54 km/h; Runway Length: 39 m; Take-Off Time: 5 seconds; 
Range: 1401 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.3G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot, copilot;  2 crew stations;  6 roomy passenger
seats
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL6, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     300 L of cargo space

The Grumman Goose is a small flying boat, with two radial engines on the
hi mounted wing, with retractable landing gear for land based landings.
This is not quite the real thing...the real one goes a bit faster and
weighs a lot less, but otherwise it's close. The cargo space is set to
mirror what the real thing will carry according to the original specs.
This plane is a fair bit heavier than the original, 5.96 tonnes vs 3.44
tonnes actual. 

This design is flyable up (flyable in this case is a marginal term meaning
a top speed > takeoff speed) to about 10 kl of cargo space, so you could
pack a lot into it and still fly, but you'll be going slow, and it'll be
very hard to take off. 

This is the plane that the Joe Bama character flies in "Where is Joe
Merchant?" by Jimmy Buffet...I think Buffet owns and flies one of these
too.

I'd like to be that rich...while looking for the real stats on this plane,
I found an ad for one...for a cool $560,000.  (So the price is just about
right , too!)

This is my "Eureka!" aircraft design (or more appropriately, my "DOH!"
design.) I hadn't realized that cargo room counted as mass in CSC, at 6
tonnes per dT. and had the 'Cargo space' control set to 'Leftover'...I was
getting tiny aircraft with 20 Mw engines, that had a
maximum speed of 27 km/hr, a takeoff speed of 700 km/hr, and a runway
length of 8 km. ;-)  

NOW, I'll go off and come up with some more airplanes, now that I know how
to design 'em!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:03:23 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S Spreadsheet V1.2 available

Andrew,

One error that I have encountered in your spead sheet.

When attempting to design an asteroid hull ship. Currently the way your
sheet is set up it ADDS in the initial volume of the design when calculating
the volume used. This gives a negative volume remaining equal to the base
volume of the ship even without anything installed! Had me scratching my
head until I zeroed out everything. This also affects normal hull designs if
you forget to set the asteroid hull size to zero.

Wanted to mention this on the List so that others will know to re-check the
volume figures until a correction can be made.

One other comment. Your SSDS sheet had the seperate error page. I found that
extremely useful for a quick reference while working on the design. Not a
major factor but I just thought I'd mention it.

Otherwise this is a great tool! Thank you for the effort, and the support!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 15:20:23 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Berry Grav Skid (TL11)

Berry Grav Skid (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.02 displacement ton open frame;  7.24 tonnes;  Cr 2916
Chassis:
     14.3 kL open frame (10 m long x 1.5 m wide x 1.5 m high);  Structure:
189 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     57.0 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 2.25 L of enriched water
(2.25 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 5.00 kW contragrav; Maximum Speed: 1 km/h; 
Range: 124 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  0 crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     14.0 kL of cargo space

Spaceports need an easy means of shifting cargo. The Berry grav skid is a
simple platform with contragrav lifters and a small Fusion Plus power plant.
Although limited motive power can be obtained from the lifters, most
dockworkers move the skid with old-fashioned muscle power.

A simple range sensor prevents the skid from being raised more than 30 cm
from the ground. Overriding this sensor is a Simple Electronics task. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 15:21:19 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Berriette Grav Skid (TL11)

Berriette Grav Skid (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.15 displacement ton open frame;  1.10 tonnes;  Cr 962
Chassis:
     2.10 kL open frame (5.6 m long x 79 cm wide x 79 cm high);  Structure:
52.9 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour
rating
     
Performance:
     57.0 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 2.25 L of enriched water
(2.25 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 5.00 kW contragrav; Maximum Speed: 8 km/h; 
Range: 821 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.3G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  0 crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     2.00 kL of cargo space

Spaceports need an easy means of shifting cargo. The Berriette grav skid is a
simple platform with contragrav lifters and a small Fusion Plus power plant.
Although limited motive power can be obtained from the lifters, most
dockworkers move the skid with old-fashioned muscle power.

A simple range sensor prevents the skid from being raised more than 30 cm
from the ground. Overriding this sensor is a Simple Electronics task. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:53:50 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: WOW

At 05:14 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>
>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>
>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>
>Cripes, that's more than some sectors!
>
	8 times 10 to the 10th is 80,000,000,000, isn't it?


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2071
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 8 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2072



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: WOW
Re: Synchronous Jump
Re: Synchronous Jump
Berriette Grav Skid (TL11) - revised
Updated Vehicles
Berry Grav Skid (TL11) - revised
Re: 100-Diameter Limit
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
re: old pulsars
Re: WOW
Re: Bilandian Fonts
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
Re: 100-Diameter Limit
Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
Mr. Whitman
Goof
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: WOW
Re: old pulsars
Flogging ships?
Escorts
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:57:05 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: WOW

At 05:14 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>
>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>
>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>
>Cripes, that's more than some sectors!
>
	Sorry, I can't determine if I'm unable to read or to think.

	8 times 10 to the 10th is 80 billion, but 8 times 10 to the
	11th is even bigger.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 16:47 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Synchronous Jump

In-Reply-To: <199711052326.XAA23603@sand.global.net.uk>

MJ,

> I've always assumed that although Jump Duration is subject to variation due
> to (something or other we don't understand), if a number of ships Jump
> close together in both time and space, using crosslinked navigation data
> and course programmes, then their Jump conditions will be so similar that
> all the ships will effectively Jump as a unit (though each is in a seperate
> J bubble), and will emerge together.
> How does that sound?

This would help, but variations in the drives, impurities in fuel, etc, will 
still add variations in the durations.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 16:47 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Synchronous Jump

In-Reply-To: <199711052326.XAA23603@sand.global.net.uk>

MJ,

> I've always assumed that although Jump Duration is subject to variation due
> to (something or other we don't understand), if a number of ships Jump
> close together in both time and space, using crosslinked navigation data
> and course programmes, then their Jump conditions will be so similar that
> all the ships will effectively Jump as a unit (though each is in a seperate
> J bubble), and will emerge together.
> How does that sound?

This would help, but variations in the drives, impurities in fuel, etc, will 
still add variations in the durations.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 15:50:44 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Berriette Grav Skid (TL11) - revised

Berriette Grav Skid (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.15 displacement ton open-topped open frame;  1.07 tonnes;  Cr 774
Chassis:
     2.10 kL open-topped open frame (5.6 m long x 79 cm wide x 79 cm high); 
Structure: 52.9 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     8x 1.00 kW TL11 Storage Bank power plants
     Propulsion System: 1.00 kW contragrav; Maximum Speed: 1 km/h; 
Agility: +1DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  0 crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     2.00 kL of cargo space

Spaceports need an easy means of shifting cargo. The Berriette grav skid is a
simple platform with contragrav lifters and an eight-hour storage bank.
Although limited motive power can be obtained from the lifters, most
dockworkers move the skid with old-fashioned muscle power.

A simple range sensor prevents the skid from being raised more than 30 cm
from the ground. Overriding this sensor is a Simple Electronics task. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 15:55:21 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Updated Vehicles

As soon as I send this I will be updating the vehicles page at
<<www.interlog.com/~dmci104/gamingClub/Traveller/vehicles.html>> again.

I will also be uploading a new version of CSC (1.4.1b).  This one has a few
more creators for export files, so if you don't need to open the export files
with a different application then don't bother to download it.  As usual, the
address will be
<<www.interlog.com/~dmci104/gamingClub/Traveller/software.html>>.


Apologies for the earlier Berry and Berriette.  In my rush to get them out
before leaving for (yet another) political protest rally I forgot to make the
originals open-topped.  I also discovered that storage banks make sense for
the smaller skid, but not for the larger one.  Enjoy both.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1997 15:51:31 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Berry Grav Skid (TL11) - revised

Berry Grav Skid (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.02 displacement ton open-topped open frame;  7.24 tonnes;  Cr 2808
Chassis:
     14.3 kL open-topped open frame (10 m long x 1.5 m wide x 1.5 m high); 
Structure: 189 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     57.0 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 2.25 L of enriched water
(2.25 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 5.00 kW contragrav; Maximum Speed: 1 km/h; 
Range: 124 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  0 crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     14.0 kL of cargo space

Spaceports need an easy means of shifting cargo. The Berry grav skid is a
simple platform with contragrav lifters and a small Fusion Plus power plant.
Although limited motive power can be obtained from the lifters, most
dockworkers move the skid with old-fashioned muscle power.

A simple range sensor prevents the skid from being raised more than 30 cm
from the ground. Overriding this sensor is a Simple Electronics task. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:28:17 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: 100-Diameter Limit

In a message dated 97-11-07 13:04:38 EST, you write:

<< The best
 advantage however is that jumpdistances for stars will be MUCH shorter than
 the 100 diamters and therefore we will rarely need to bother with them
 (quick now how many of you referees consider the stars diamter when
 determining travel times to jump?) >>

My problem with that is that it makes it simpler just to make it simpler.
Let's make all tasks 2D rolls because its simpler?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:26:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069

At 10:59 pm 11/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Roderick wrote:
>>        In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
>>on the part of the females!
>
>Well, if you asked the average woman or man which would they prefer,
>to have only one person of the opposite gender for each of the
>them, or to have three persons of the opposite gender for each
>one of you, what do you think they would say?  :-)

	One would be plenty for me, thank you...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:45:12 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: old pulsars

>Any speculation as to densities? [of pulsar planets]
None at all. To be honest, no-one has any good feeling where the pulsar
planets came from - there are models arguing about whether rocky or
gaseous planets could survive the initial explosion (inconclusive), whether 
they could form from a debris disk around the pulsar post-explosion 
(inconclusive), whether they were captured during a close pass with another
star (the pulsar in question is a old millisecond pulsar - clearly spun up
by accretion - with no apparent companion, imlying it lost the companion
in an encounter with a third star.) Basically, make the planets anything you
like. I would tend to guess the close ones are rocky and the distant one
(if it exists) is Jovian.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 20:37 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WOW

In-Reply-To: <l03020900b0897f2a8695@[142.154.172.37]>

> >Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
> >
> >3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
> >
> Hm.   This gives us a routine quality starport, a planet 3200 km in
> diameter, a very thin, tainted atmosphere, with 60% hydrosphere (probably
> ice cover given it's around a type M star), 800 billion people (yeek),
> government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4 manual; it's

Isn't it some kind of Religious Dictatorship?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:14:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bilandian Fonts

In mail you write:

>>> Ooh ooh, Mistah Kottah, how about this if you want weird:
>>> 26 half-characters, which form a letter when combined.
>>> This makes life horribly difficult for transcription, of course.
>>> But it allows an oodle of combinations.
>>
>>That's a good idea, Eppstein, and its what we imagined the "orginal"
>>Vilani would be similar to. Something like the Korean Hangul alphabet,
>>where to sounds join to form a single glyph for each syllable.
>>
>>Pretty difficult to practically use on english computers tho'. :)
>>
>>MAYBE sometime I'll design a Hangul-like alphabet with the included
>>keyboard resources for Mac, so it's easy to type. (Type "sa" and get one
>>glyph). I have no frigging idea how to create "dead-keys" on the PC,
>>though.

The PC does it in the keyboard driver. You load the support for the
appropriate "country" and you get the "correct" dead keys. I'd have to
do some digging into my MS-DOS Propgrammer's Reference Manual to find
the details on *how* you tell the driver.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:14:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069

Quoth David P. Summers:
> Well, if you asked the average woman or man which would they prefer,
> to have only one person of the opposite gender for each of the
> them, or to have three persons of the opposite gender for each
> one of you, what do you think they would say?  :-)

With Derek's suggestion in mind, doesn't that depend on the gender you'd
prefer to, er, liase with?  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:56:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 100-Diameter Limit

>My problem with that is that it makes it simpler just to make it simpler.
>
>Marc

Actually not IMHO. It makes the stars 100-diam range less important but not
much and they're still there. The important thing is that it actually gives
you a reason for the 100-diam limit which is important to players wanting
to believe in Traveller instead of playing as if Traveller was just a bunch
of rules. For instance, isn't everything in the milky way inside its 100
diam limit and therefore no jumps can take place? Those kind of questions
pop up all the time from my players.

Technological handwaves that doesn't complicate things are something very
similar to free lunches so I'd say we should use them as much as possible.

Look at the grav focussing thing that was put in to solve the impossibility
to focus lightpulses at the described space combat ranges. The focussing
opened up all sorts of problems because the technology could be used for
other purposes as well. If x-ray lasers had been used as handwave instead
none of the secondary effects of the gravfocussing would show up

>Let's make all tasks 2D rolls because its simpler?
As in CT or the MT task system (as well as mine) you mean? (I just couldn't
resist)
;)  ;)  ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:16:01 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

	This movie sucks.

	Ostie de c=E2lice de tabarac de mautadit que c'est mauvais [pardon my
=46rench, but profanity was needed and English was not up to the task].

	Everyone associated with this film ought to be shot.  Repeatedly.
With really big guns.  And their corpses hung from that big "HOLLYWOOD"
sign as a warning to the entire US film industry.

	Kenneth, if your movie is an SF flick and you botch it up as badly
as Verhoeven did this, I promise you that I will personally hunt you down
and kill you with my Swiss Army knife.  And I won't use the blades.

	Every five minutes, another hole the size of a truck pops up.  Some
of the holes are considerably bigger than trucks.  From a believability
angle this film makes Emmenthal cheese look like superdense.

	The visuals are sometimes gorgeous; the problem is is that they
usually invlve something that is so patently un gros tas de merde puant
that the whole scene is spoiled.

	From a military point of view, the whole ciboire de film is
completely unbelievable.  Butcher Haig, the bastard that planned Dieppe,
and Saddam Hussein look like Sun Tsu compared to the MI high brass.

	From a science-fictional point of view the gotching travesty of a
butchery of an abortion of a film is even worse.  Mention has been made of
coffee cups being affected by an asteroid's gravity.  Let me add drop craft
with the aerodynamic profile of bricks to the list.

	From an artistic point of view, human language is completely
insufficient.  Imagine me screaming and raging incoherently at the top of
my lungs while cutting up piglets with a chainsaw and playing bad heavy
metal backwards at 200 decibels to get an idea.  Now think even less
pleasant than that.

	Gah.  Event Horizons is a better movie than this.  Visual effects
aside, Plan 9 from Outer Space is a better film than this.  The best part
of the movie was the trailer for Godzilla.

	The acting was only moderately bad.  Michael Ironside played
Michael Ironside with consummate skill and artistry.  Whatshisname Busey
wasn't bad.  The lead male chin was all right, and Gauleiter Doogie Hauser,
S.S. was surprisingly sinister as the =FCbernerd.  Other than that the actin=
g
was only mediocre.


	I tried.  I really tried not to hate this movie.  But I couldn't
help but sneer all the way through.  Even going in expecting nothing but
nonstop gunfire and bugs splattering everywhere, even with my brain turned
off, I still couldn't help noticing just how bad the film was.  The badness
of this movie just leaps out and shakes you by the lapels until your
fillings fall out.

	And now I think that I'm going to go scoop my eyeballs out with a
spoon, rinse out the sockets with soap and water, vomit for a while, and go
study.  You have been warned.





Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:19:50 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069

David P. Summers wrote:

>
>Roderick wrote:
>>        In fact, the female/male ratio might be due to social engineering
>>on the part of the females!
>
>Well, if you asked the average woman or man which would they prefer,
>to have only one person of the opposite gender for each of the
>them, or to have three persons of the opposite gender for each
>one of you, what do you think they would say?  :-)


	Well, if the other gender is big, dumb, violent, sprays a lot, and
is incapable of fixing things up around the house or doing the monthly
budget, I'd think twice about having a lot of them around..:).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 18:44:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Mr. Whitman

Well look who's back in the RPG business...

>From:         archangel@archangelent.com (Ken Whitman)
>Newsgroups:   rec.games.frp.misc
>Subject:      ZERO RPG: WIN A FREE COPY
>Date:         Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:26:14 -0500
>Organization: Archangel Entertainment
>Lines:        9
>Message-ID:   <archangel-0511971626140001@usr-ppp-85.elknet.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.227.48.5
>Path: >news.siscom.net!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iag
>net.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!sol.net
>!newsfeed1.tcccom.net!tornado.tcccom.net!usr-ppp-85.elknet.net!user
>
>
>ZERO is a new Sci-fi game Archangel Entertainmnet.  If you are 
>interested in taking the time to review this game and post it on this 
>site we will give you a complementary copy.  This offer will only be 
>for the first 20 People who sign up.  
>
>If you are interested e-mail us at archangel@archangelent.com
>
>Thanx,
>Ken Whitman

   Well at least his spelling has improved...a little.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:35:00 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Goof

Gentlebeings:

Please accept my apologies for the message Subject: Rumor

I misposted it to the TML instead of its intended recipient. Please ignore
it.

Thanks,

 Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:40:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In mail you write:

> I suppose I was definitely looking at this through my own cultural filters.
> I was thinking of all of those terrible ads I have to re-do because the
> copy comes in all-caps (I assume for emphasis, although if *everything* is
> capitalized then *nothing* stands out). I was also thinking about it from
> my own aesthetic. I am selfish. I want Bilandin to be easy to read (and
> pretty to look at) for me! :-)

Well, it is *definitely* a case of "what you are used to". I read
runes, and they are "all caps" (or if you prefer, all lower case). It
really *doesn't* make it harder to read.

And for a comparison you may be more familiar with, how hard is it to
read all *lower* case?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:08:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: WOW

In mail you write:

>>Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>>
>>3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>>
>>Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>>
>>Cripes, that's more than some sectors!
>
>
> Hm.   This gives us a routine quality starport, a planet 3200 km in
> diameter, a very thin, tainted atmosphere, with 60% hydrosphere (probably
> ice cover given it's around a type M star), 800 billion people (yeek),
> government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4 manual; it's
> gotta be ugly), and a Law Level off the map.  Presumably flatulence in
> elevators is a capital crime here.  Tech level is 9.
>
>         I could see this as being one enormous habitat that used to be a
> planet.  A cold-cored mostly Nickel-Iron body that's been hollowed out all
> the way down to its core, with the excavated material used to build
> upwards.  The place is a police state from hell, with no privacy or civil
> rights of any sort.  Living quarters for all but the powerful consist of
> coffin apartments.  Think Chung Kuo, only much, much, much worse.

Lets see. That's a surface area of 8e12 sq. meters. Or about 1000 sq
meters for every person. A bit under 32 meters on a side (or a bit
*over* 100 feet on a side). So even without digging very deep, everyone
has quite a bit of room. Bigger than the lots most houses are on. Now,
it's true that a lot of area is needed for life support, access routes,
industry and common areas. But if they dig down a measly *one*
kilometer, this becomes *trivial*. A planet is a *big* place. 

Earth is only crowded on a *local* basis. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:49:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: old pulsars

In mail you write:

>>Any speculation as to densities? [of pulsar planets]

> None at all. To be honest, no-one has any good feeling where the pulsar
> planets came from - there are models arguing about whether rocky or
> gaseous planets could survive the initial explosion (inconclusive), whether 
> they could form from a debris disk around the pulsar post-explosion 
> (inconclusive), whether they were captured during a close pass with another
> star (the pulsar in question is a old millisecond pulsar - clearly spun up
> by accretion - with no apparent companion, imlying it lost the companion
> in an encounter with a third star.) Basically, make the planets anything you
> like. I would tend to guess the close ones are rocky and the distant one
> (if it exists) is Jovian.

I'd like to have them built up by accretion from the debris. Though
having them *start* as the remains of a rocky planet ands then accrete
will work too. I figure that the surface of such a planet ought to be
*real* interesting from a mineralogical point of view. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:14:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Flogging ships?

>Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:53:10 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Purpose of Piracy
....
>This requires that a would-be pirate can routinely do legitimate business
>at a starport without giving the authorities enough information to
>identify him and track him down after the event. Do you really think
>that is a reasonable assumption?

  No. However, I assume that anyone who captures a ~60 MCr trader
isn't going to hang around. I doubt Mr. Biggs (sp.) really wants
to visit the U.K. anymore, either.

>(Oh, and stealing a starship requires that you can disguise it or its
>component parts enough that it/they can't be identified later. Another
>very iffy assumption, IMO.

  Either make a straight dash for the border, or stash it in deep
space and sell it to someone who can wait for it to cool off, or
can use it outside of the normal system of merchant operations.
This latter really only applies to organized crime, admittedly.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:14:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Escorts

>Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:43:33 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Of Pirates and Lurking
>
>Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:45:42 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>  There is a case to be made that existing small warships may as
>>well be used, especially as patrol work is one of their presumed
>>major wartime duties.
>
>Well, it has already been questioned, and argued about, if
>those patrols are a) all suited to antipiracy work and
>b) numerous enough to even come close to stopping piracy
>c) don't also already have tasks the antipiracy patrols
>would take them away from.

Hello,
  I guess, but I haven't seen a response beyond the "it's
just so" level. Why would ships built for wartime escort
functions be unsuited to peacetime anti-piracy patrols?
Why would they be insufficient for peacetime deployment
in this and few other roles, yet numerous enough for wartime
commerce escort, fleet escort, and picket duties, which should
all require _more_ ships before combat losses? What other tasks
do these ships have in peacetime, especially when so many are
designated as having no other task?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:31:55 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Well Roderick, we all all entitled to our opinions of the movie, however
you've made some comparisons that just hold up;

And I quote :

> 
>         Gah.  Event Horizons is a better movie than this.  Visual effects
> aside, Plan 9 from Outer Space is a better film than this.  The best part

Event Horizons had some good potential, however it all came un-glued
towards then end into one big bloodbath.  Not a reasonable comparison to
Starship Troopers, as Troopers had much more plot.

As to "Plan 9", I have seen it and to compare it with any portion of
Troopers is utterly ludicrous.  It is like comparing a plastic fork to a
thermo-nuclear weapon in terms of destructive potential.

I quote once more :

>      I tried.  I really tried not to hate this movie.  But I couldn't
> help but sneer all the way through.  Even going in expecting nothing but

You have made it quite obvious that you hated the movie from it's
outset; you entered the theatre with you mind made up already, and the
whole excercise of watching it was mainly to fuel your some-what
unreasonable hate of the film.

I cannot address this film from a military point of view, having never
been in any armed forces, but even my un-trained eye was spotting things
and wondering "Why the hell did they do that?".

One example was sending the radio operator up in the hillside ALONE,
when they could already see activity in the rocks.  What were they
thinking?!  Lets see...."Hmm, that radio operator really irks me, lets
get rid of him..."  :)  As has been said here already, the troop
formations were too bunched up, and I agree.  If the Arachnid flyers had
dropped bombs, it would have been all over.

To quote again :

> coffee cups being affected by an asteroid's gravity.  Let me add drop craft
> with the aerodynamic profile of bricks to the list

This also amazed me; the drop craft are slow, ungainly and unstreamlined
and should have been picked off with contemptuous ease.

Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
and losing one was painful.

I feel the need to defend this movie because of so many others that have
characters, but you don't CARE if they die or not.  Or sometimes, you're
hoping they WILL hurry up and die so the movie will be over and you can
go home.  There are plenty of movies that fit this niche, and Starship
Troopers isn't one of them.  If they make a sequel, I fully plan on
checking it out.

Just my 5 cents worth Rod, no hard feelings and don't take this
personally.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2072
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 9 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2073



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bograt ATV (TL8)
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2071
TravLang Subs (was: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2071)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069
Re: Escorts
Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
Sensor Rules
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1997 03:29:41 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Bograt ATV (TL8)

Bograt ATV (TL8)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     3.00 displacement ton box;  11.5 tonnes;  kCr 24.9
Chassis:
     42.0 kL box (5.4 m long x 2.8 m wide x 2.8 m high);  Structure: 350 kg
of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.13 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     402 kW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 1.93 kL of
hydrocarbons (1.93 tonnes), 48 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW wheels with off-road suspension; 
Maximum Speed: 52 km/h; 
Range: 2514 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  6 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL8, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: recreation space, kitchen for 4 simultaneous meals
     13.3 kL of cargo space

The Bograt is more of an off-road camper than a true all-terrain vehicle, but
ATV sounds better in the ads. Slow but inexpensive, it can carry six in
relative comfort, although only four meals can be heated at once. Cargo
capacity is 13 kL; plenty of room for supplies, and even enough to carry fuel
for an additional seven days of continuous driving. Unloaded maximum speed is
close to 100 km/h.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:11:22 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

Glenn wrote:

>Loren Wiseman asks,
>
>>> HOW TO SURVIVE YOUR STINT IN FEDERAL SERVICE
>>> Twenty useful tips brought to you by Gen. Paul Verhoven, C in C...
>>
>>Is this based on seeing the movie or on the Sci-Fi Channel's "The Making
>>of..." teasers?
>
>Went to a preview showing here in Montreal, on Wednesday. Glad I didn't
>have to actually pay to see this monstrosity.


	Lucky you.  I paid full price.  Hours later, I'm still really
pissed off.  And insulted.


>
>>As for myself, I plan on temporarily blanking the novel from my mind and
>>enjoying the special effects.
>
>I did actually enjoy chunks of the film. The effects are truly fine - some
>of the starship shots in particular. But those of my friends who were fans
>of the book were, not surprisingly, ready to hunt down Verhoeven and feed
>him to the Bugs.


	Yup, the visuals were nicely done.  But the ships flying in tight
tight formation through flak just didn't make any sense, the asteroid
encounter scene was just so much Hollywood schlock (LIKE THE ROGER YOUNG
DIDN'T HAVE RADAR CAPABLE OF PICKING IT UP UNTIL IT'S GRAVITY IS PULLING
COFFEE OUT OF CUPS!!!), the aerodynamically unstable drop ships, and so on
and so on, and so on.  And these guys haven't heard of evasive maneuvers?!?
It had a bad case of Event Horizon Syndrome: nice visuals in ther service
of utterly non-believable plot devices.

	The bugs were cute, and well done.  The ring station around the
Moon looked nice, although it curved too tightly (I think).  The shot of
the fusion bugs was real gorgeous (hi point of the film IMHO) but patently
unbelievable; I have a hard time thinking that a plasma bolt capable of
cutting a ship in two wouldn't vapourize the bug forming it.  And their ROF
is pretty darn good; what the hell are those bugs eating that allows them
to generate the amount of power needed?

	The thing is is that eye candy aside, the story was just plain
unbelievable; there were so many things that were done wrong...  the
asteroid impact, for one; I don't buy blotting out the sun for a few
seconds before impact one bit, unless it was really huge, in which case the
thing would have levelled more than just Buenos Aires.  The brain bugs, for
another; like a completely alien species would have evolved an appendage
for sucking human brains out through a straw to digest the information
contained therein...  The Bugs' means of interstellar propagation; either
they're moving STL, in which case given their position relative to Earth,
they probably would have had to launch those asteroids while Earth was
still condensing out of planetesimals, or they have FTL, in which case
their intelligence is out of doubt, but this would contradict those bits
about spore pods.

	And people outrunning a nuclear fireball IN AN UNDERGROUND
TUNNEL?!?  I'm sorry, but that scene was pretty much the final straw.  I
don't care whether it was a subkiloton nuke or not, but 15 seconds
sprinting (and Carmen was running and shooting pretty well for someone who
ought to have been in shock after getting speared to the floor) will not
get you to a safe distance.  What kind of boneheads does Verhoeven take us
for?

	And then there was the fact that Planet P and Klendathu looked
identical... and a helluva a lot like Arizona.


>
>>On a slightly different topic, I get a little peeved at war movies that have
>>many of the same klunkers.
>
>Roderick's posting of his CSC design for an anti-Bug tank is perhaps the
>most apt comment. After the film-makers eliminated the power suits from the
>story, they didn't bother explaining why all these vulnerable grunts were
>being dumped onto the planet with insufficient armored support. There *is*
>some reference to the Fleet "glassing the planet" prior to the insertion of
>troops, and a few brief shots of fighters taking out Bugs, but once the
>troops are on the ground, they seem to be entirely on their own.
>
>This is the least of the film's problems, however.


	Yeah.  I can't believe that they didn't have APC's, close support
aircraft, or, for that matter LAAW's.  A single LAAW would seriously ruin a
Tanker Bug's whole day (not to mention a swarm of Warrior Bugs).  They
didn't have mortars, artillery, or tanks.  The nuke bazookas were cute, but
I have a hard time grokking the tactical role of an assault rifle with an
integral pump shotgun?!?  Militarily, the whole story is even more
ludicrous than it was from an astronomical/scientific point of view.  Aside
from the massed fleets flying in tight formation, which has already been
mentioned, tactically speaking the MI as depicted in the movie are on a par
with the High Commands in WWI who thought trench warfare was pretty neat.
Consider:

	Individual warrior bugs are bigger and far more lethal than
individual humans.  It requires a considerable amount of autofire from
heavy ACRs to take them down.

	Tanker bugs are pretty darn nasty, and small-arms fire doesn't
really slow them down.  And they spray this really nasty flammable acid
stuff.

	Bugs are pretty good at tunneling around and emerging at tactically
opportune moments.

	So, against these formidable opponents, what do the MI do?  They
drop a bunch of grunts on the surface, with, nuke bazookas aside, armament
that's barely sufficient to deal with the enemy.  They provide body armour
that's about as useful as a lacy padded bra from Fredericks of Hollywood.
And they give them no artillery support, minimal air support, no close air
support, no ortillery AFAIK, no armoured vehicles, no nothing.  They just
drop them in there...  No seisometer units that we can see (a few of those
dropped in a perimeter around Fort Zinderneuf and they would have seen that
Tanker Bug coming a mile away).  No bioweapons, no chemical weapons, no
battlefield taxis, no helicopters (or equivalent), not even so much as
antipersonnel mines (a nice minefield around Fort Zinderneuf and that bug
swarm would have been really hurting).

	Makes no sense whatsoever.  A ten-year-old who's played TacOps
twice could do better than that.


>
>In interviews, Verhoeven is claiming that the film's overt Naziness is
>intended as subversive ironic commentary on the violence of American pop
>culture. This defence is just bollocks. Like _Robocop_ and especially
>_Total Recall_, _Troopers_ blatantly panders to the violent tendencies it
>claims to be subverting. Verhoeven's a hypocrite too unsubtle to notice the
>obvious flaws in his artistic strategy.


	Yeah.  And then there's that.  Shiny happy fascism.  I'm kinda
offended that they released it so close to Remembrance Day.


>
>I would have some respect for him if he would just admit he likes to make
>gore-filled brainless trash. Because his movies are about as subversive as
>NRA billboards.


	Gorefilled brainless trash?  About describes it, except that ST is
just gorefilled brain-dead trash, and the brain in question was pretty darn
small to begin with.  Like I said earlier, I came out of it feeling
insulted.  Anyhow, I'd better stop now; I gotta study.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:11:11 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2071

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:57:22 -0500, kenji@accessone.com (Kenji
Schwarz) wrote...

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:09 -0500, "Robert Eaglestone"
>><eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>Is there really a TravLang mailing list?
>>>May I be included in it??
>>
>>There sure is, and you sure can.  Even though I'm the list owner,
>>I don't have the subscription procedure memorized; you can find
>>it at the Freelance Traveller web site,
>>http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller, and follow the
>>links for >InfoCenter< and >Traveller on the 'Net<.  I do recall
>>that the software, although not truly LISTSERV, is close enough
>>that you can use LISTSERV instructions with only minimal
>>opportunity for trouble.  The list name really is travlang, and
>>focuses on the development of languages for Traveller's
>>significant races.  The current project is Vilani.
>
>I've dug it up: send a message to maiser@earth.execnet.com with a body =
of
>"subscribe travlang Your Name"

Whoops!  No, I've apparently forgotten to update that (and I
won't be able to do it this weekend, in all probability); maiser
is gone; all lists are housed at mail.

As I said, it's really LISTSERV compatible; it should be a
message to listserv@mail.execnet.com with a body of=20

subscribe travlang

and that's it.

It's entirely possible that the old instructions will still work
(Execnet is usually pretty good about stuff like that), and I
_have_ gotten some new subscriptions recently, but there is NO
guarantee that the old instructions will work, or that they will
even be valid.  Please, use the instructions in this message, NOT
the ones at Freelance Traveller, and as soon as I can, I _will_
update FT - especially seeing that GDW-Beta has also changed.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:48:22 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: TravLang Subs (was: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2071)

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:57:22 -0500, kenji@accessone.com (Kenji
>Schwarz) wrote...
[snip]
>>I've dug it up: send a message to maiser@earth.execnet.com with a body of
>>"subscribe travlang Your Name"
>
>Whoops!  No, I've apparently forgotten to update that (and I
>won't be able to do it this weekend, in all probability); maiser
>is gone; all lists are housed at mail.
>
>As I said, it's really LISTSERV compatible; it should be a
>message to listserv@mail.execnet.com with a body of
>
>subscribe travlang
>
>and that's it.

Ooops.  Mea magna culpa.  Sorry, all.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:43:36 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

>Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:49:22 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
>
>>  This presupposes that both reconaissance in force and anti-
>>logistics (both classic cruiser roles) will be non-existent
>>until such time as the main fleets from a couple subsectors
>>back arrive?
>
>It presumes that you don't do reconaissance in force because
>the point of that is to make sure your patrols can safely
>report back.  The ability to sit where you can jump at

Hello,
  Risk is a factor, and acceptable at various levels.

>any moment can obviate that need.  Assuming by
>anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding

  No, attacking enemy shipping when it's most needed - during the
initial rush of assault fleets and resupply operations expected
after the first clash of battlefleets. Not having such a capability
frees up enemy escort assets, and reduces friction in enemy planning.

>(anti-anti-logistics?) since anti-logistics will
>be forays of ships grouped into small fleets into
>enemy territory and is not really much for stopping
>piracy.  The best way to deal with

  That's a wartime deployment, and in any event most of the ships
detailed for such missions will be the smaller escort (Gazelles,
etc.) which it now appears are too small to fight enemy traders.

>this is to set up convoys which, by definition, means
>you don't have enough ships to patrol every system
>to protect every ship.

  It means that convoys are the most efficient use of those
resources for point defense, as you mentioned on the topic of
fleet concentration. However, random interdiction efforts will
still play a great role in counter-guerre de course operations,
as they have throughout the modern era.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:12:19 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

>Sorry, but a spin around any two axes can be computed to a spin of one
>axis between them. But, what is the point, if you did not get one of the
>main axes, the ship will begin to tumble and turn to another, stable axis.

I have heard this claim before, and don't understand it. How can a spin
around two axes be converted to a single axis? If it was possible why would
gyrocompasses and armillary spheres bother to have three separate spin axes
instead of one?

Consider two axes perpendicular to each other; an object in this
arrangement could spin with its pole pointing anywhere along a great
circle. How can one possibly do this with a single axis? What about
precession; a precessing object has two angles of rotation and I see no way
it could be reduced to one.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:05:23 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

Ahh, Roderick, now THIS post about Starship Troopers makes sense, and
illustrates your points an order of magnitude better then the last
post.  I find myself agreeing with each of your points, one by one,
here.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 01:27:37 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:

>        This movie sucks.

   So bad apparently, it has poor Roderick using two languages so that
he can give the complete scope of it.

>        Everyone associated with this film ought to be shot.  Repeatedly.
>With really big guns.  And their corpses hung from that big "HOLLYWOOD"
>sign as a warning to the entire US film industry.

   Any science-fiction movie that has as one of its review comments
"sexy" (granted probably snipped by the people advertising the film from
a much longer piece) has one strike against it in my book already.

   If the film is sufficently bad, a much worse fate will befall those
responsible: they will be ignored.  The Hollywood establishment will
forget that they exist, and eventually they will *beg* to have their
bodies hung from the 'HOLLYWOOD' sign just so that they can get the
publicity.  Eventually the cruelist fate of all: they will all end up as
"victim number two on an episode of "Tales From the Darkside" or as
"lover number one" in "Red Shoe Diaries".

>        From a military point of view, the whole ciboire de film is
>completely unbelievable.  Butcher Haig, the bastard that planned Dieppe,
>and Saddam Hussein look like Sun Tsu compared to the MI high brass.

   Hollywood typically protrays everyone above the rank of major
(colonel in the special forces/commandos, since many sf/commando types
are colonels) as either a Nazi or as a total incompetant or both.  This
puts everyone below the rank of major in the position to be heroic and
save the day despite the mistakes for their superiors.  Hollywood thinks
this is good film making.  Hollywood also dodged the draft during
Vietnam and doesn't know a semi-automatic rifle from a machine gun.

>        From an artistic point of view, human language is completely
>insufficient.  Imagine me screaming and raging incoherently at the top of
>my lungs while cutting up piglets with a chainsaw and playing bad heavy
>metal backwards at 200 decibels to get an idea.  Now think even less
>pleasant than that.

   Spice Girls?  Foss art?  A Foss rendering of a Spice Girls CD cover? 
<shudder>

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:10:20 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

   This movie... was...interesting.  I don't think it's a complete flop.  It
had nice visuals after all and made a good bug hunt, though i was vocally
complaining about the various military gaffs along w/ their boot camp parody.
Not having read the novel, i don't know if the boot camp thing was in the
book or was set that from the screen play, but it was quite laughable to me.
 
    I'm in the US Marines (having been a grunt and now a tanker), so i have
some perspective on the military aspects.  Of course, I witnessed the US
Armys Basic Training and AIT for its tankers at FT Knox and that seemed quite
laughable, too, considering what i went through, but this isn't the place for
that... : ), with all due respect to any Soldiers on this list.  I'd call the
MI stuff Army equivalent, but it's definately less rigorous and stressful
than what Marines experience.
    Before I ever got onto a rifle range (even the field firing) we were
quite clear on the safety rules.  The problem wouldn't have been so much in
removing ones helmet, but on keeping the weapons down range.  A kevlar helmet
wouldn't stop a str8 direct shot,  anyways.  But i'm sidetracking. : )
     I left Event Horizon w/ a much worse taste in my mouth.  This movie
seemed to go a lot quicker than it actually went.  I didn't like the
recruiting advertisements and "computer news interface."  Seemed corny to me.
     The MI didn't seem to use any sort of combat formations to me.  Just
looked like a mob of guys (and girls... ; )  )  running around.  No
discipline, no semblance of tactical employment.  I don't really expect this
from a movie, but it's kind of silly to watch.  Kind of reminds me of Space:
Above and Beyond.  
      Their rank structure is pretty amusing too.  Some kind of mixed
enlisted and commissioned structure.  Having one of the few (visible) sgt's
being a radio operator was kind of amusing.  Did anyone catch on just what
sized unit Rico was in?  What was it called?  I can't seem to remember, but
what was the size?  They had a lieutenant in charge, so i'm assuming it's
platoon equivalent.  A company would rate a Captain, but they're structure
was pretty funky.  ("what, your lieutenant is dead?  You, (acting) Sgt, do
you wanna be Commanding Officer.")  And the fact that the Doogie Howser guy
was a Colonel (full bird, i assume) even though he entered at the same time
as the other 2.  That "Fleet" woman making Lt (jg, or full?) isn't so
purposterous in wartime.  
    I liked how they killed Diz.  Not just have everyone live happily ever
after.  Seemed very bablon 5 ish and un trekkish.   Still, I did vocally
remark on how it seemed everyone around the 3 main characters seemed to die
and resulted in promotion for them.  Who wants to serve w/ these guys? Lol.  
    All in all I give it a C.  2 stars... whatever.  : )  Decent, but not
laudible.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:27:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2069

Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:14:58 -0600 (CST), Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>> Well, if you asked the average woman or man which would they prefer,
>> to have only one person of the opposite gender for each of the
>> them, or to have three persons of the opposite gender for each
>> one of you, what do you think they would say?  :-)

>With Derek's suggestion in mind, doesn't that depend on the gender you'd
>prefer to, er, liase with?  :-)

Well, a bit seriously, most of the Aslan are going to want to
"liase" with a member of the opposite gender.  (I don't know
how you would fit an attraction of the majority of the race
to the same gender into the evolution of the species).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:47:15 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escorts

Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:14:55 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Well, it has already been questioned, and argued about, if
>>those patrols are a) all suited to antipiracy work and
>>b) numerous enough to even come close to stopping piracy
>>c) don't also already have tasks the antipiracy patrols
>>would take them away from.

>  I guess, but I haven't seen a response beyond the "it's
>just so" level.

OK.  I'll repeat it.  [Yes, I know that Hans will disagree
with some of this.  He can posts his objections.  If
I don't reply it will be because we have already covered
this before.]

>Why would ships built for wartime escort
>functions be unsuited to peacetime anti-piracy patrols?

>Why would they be insufficient for peacetime deployment
>in this and few other roles, yet numerous enough for wartime
>commerce escort, fleet escort, and picket duties, which should
>all require _more_ ships before combat losses?

Well, look back at the posts about whether pickets
need to be armed at all.  They just need to jump away
with news.  As to escort, the reason you convoy
ships in wartime is so you don't have to keep near as many
ships as it would take to guard them all if they weren't
convoyed.

>What other tasks
>do these ships have in peacetime, especially when so many are
>designated as having no other task?

The have to be in place for when the war breaks out.  Pickets
need to be sitting near the border where enemy ships are going
to be found.  Escorts need to be sitting ready so that supplies
can rushed up right away.  Other warships have to be ready to
carry immediate news of the fighting between fleets.  If
you wait weeks to months to collect ships together while
the enemy takes ground, cuts off and eliminates fleets,etc.
you are in real trouble.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 00:17:17 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)

>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:19:55 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
....
>>  However, having (anti-piracy) intelligence units collating
>>and distributing material pre-emptively isn't commo-time
>>dependent, nor is determining that a ship design will be hard
>>pressed to make money legally, although realizing that a given
>>ship must be losing money by reported operations is.
>
>I don't agree.  The intellegence, if it is to have any
>chance of being in place at time, means there there
>has to be someone at every system taking it, noting
>what it is, deciding where it need to go, and finding
>ships to take the info.  This has to be done for every
>single bit of info, for which this info is just one.
>Add this to the fact that a ship that is equiped to
>defeat a ship that attacks it is also a ship that is
>designed to defeat a ship it attacks (which would
>be even easier since you can determine the tatical
>situation) means that even if you go to the trouble
>of getting that info you can't really stop piracy
>anyway.

Hello,
  Why does pre-trial (even pre-construction?) or long-term revenue
calculations suffer a lag time? Strategic planning effectively
requires a lead time for data gathering. It serves to indicate
probale perps. It does not need to propagate instantly - while
commo speed is relevant, it is not a significant problem for
these types of projections in the canon Traveller universe.

>Yeah, but the point is that you can't detect with sensors
>that a ship has extra _armaments_ that are hidden.  And
>records can be forged.  There has never been a system
>of record keeping in the history of mankind that hasn't
>had enough people figuring out a way around it to prevent
>it from wiping out a type of crime.

  I'll state right out that I see a big advantage of the dis-honest
trader (as potential pirate) being that he can move "through the
people as a fish through water". He can make money normally. He
can't be flagged as a highly probable perp. He can survive a search
by the authorities at any time, without being caught on illegal
weapons charges! OC, if you never risk a search, you're OK.

....
>No.  The IN just isn't dumb enough to use one buy itself to
>stop piracy.  I certainly wouldn't object to them being
>deployed near enough to aid each other.

  The Navy doesn't build ships capable of carrying out their
designated missions without flotilla operations? That's not very
cost effective for the electronics outfits.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:45:56 +-1100
From: Scott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Sensor Rules

I am looking for the new sensor rules that were mentioned the other week, could someone tell me where to find them. Thanks.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:32:17 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Jory wrote:

>
>Well Roderick, we all all entitled to our opinions of the movie, however
>you've made some comparisons that just hold up;
>
>And I quote :
>
>>
>>         Gah.  Event Horizons is a better movie than this.  Visual effects
>> aside, Plan 9 from Outer Space is a better film than this.  The best part
>
>Event Horizons had some good potential, however it all came un-glued
>towards then end into one big bloodbath.  Not a reasonable comparison to
>Starship Troopers, as Troopers had much more plot.


	Well, as far as plot goes, that's a value call.  EV was just
another Alien spinoff that went horribly wrong.  ST the book was an excuse
for Heinlien to run a critical thinking test past his fans while writing
some fun prose about a funky new SF concept; powered armour.  ST the movie
was, brace yourself and IMHO, 90210 meets the Aliens.  There's a bit of
adolescent-relationship centered plot development at the beginning, and
then Verhoeven starts whacking people.  Seriously, though, I'd put EV and
ST them movie on a par; nice eye candy with no filling.

	Maybe we expect different things from SF movies.  The best SF movie
IMHO this year was Contact.  Nice eye candy, nice story, and the whole
thing was kept as scientifically accurate as possible, with the exception
of Ellie forgetting about parallax during the Congressional inquiry
hearing.  ST was nice eye candy, but the guts of the film just weren't
there.


>
>As to "Plan 9", I have seen it and to compare it with any portion of
>Troopers is utterly ludicrous.  It is like comparing a plastic fork to a
>thermo-nuclear weapon in terms of destructive potential.


	IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do
Plan 9 as Verhoeven had to do ST, I think we'd have a contender on our
hands.  The eye candy would likely be just as good, and the story about on
a par.


>
>I quote once more :
>
>>      I tried.  I really tried not to hate this movie.  But I couldn't
>> help but sneer all the way through.  Even going in expecting nothing but
>
>You have made it quite obvious that you hated the movie from it's
>outset; you entered the theatre with you mind made up already, and the
>whole excercise of watching it was mainly to fuel your some-what
>unreasonable hate of the film.


	Well, actually, no. I went in to the film hoping that I'd be
pleasantly surprised.  I'd felt equally apprehensive about Interview With
The Vampire when I heard that they'd cast Cruise, but really enjoyed the
film.  Alas, this was not the case here.


>
>I cannot address this film from a military point of view, having never
>been in any armed forces, but even my un-trained eye was spotting things
>and wondering "Why the hell did they do that?".
>
>One example was sending the radio operator up in the hillside ALONE,
>when they could already see activity in the rocks.  What were they
>thinking?!  Lets see...."Hmm, that radio operator really irks me, lets
>get rid of him..."  :)  As has been said here already, the troop
>formations were too bunched up, and I agree.  If the Arachnid flyers had
>dropped bombs, it would have been all over.


	Yup.  Y'see, one thing I kind of demand from movies is that they
don't strain my credulity.  I like a science fiction movie to be
scientifically credible.  I like military movies to be militarily credible.
This was a military SF movie that was both militarily unbelievable and
scientifically full of crap.


>
>To quote again :
>
>> coffee cups being affected by an asteroid's gravity.  Let me add drop craft
>> with the aerodynamic profile of bricks to the list
>
>This also amazed me; the drop craft are slow, ungainly and unstreamlined
>and should have been picked off with contemptuous ease.


	Yup.  I think they were done that way so that Verhoeven could have
his extras running into prefab huts dressed up as drop ships, and then CGI
them into flight.  Shades of that flying saucer with a corner in Plan 9.


>
>Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
>the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
>was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
>so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
>and losing one was painful.


	Well, unfortunatey, having seen the trailer in the theaters, I knew
Diz was going to get it in a suitably gory fashion.  The characters,
insofar as they still occasionally had traces of the Heinlein ones in them,
were not as abysmal as the rest of the movie.  Still, they were a little
too close to the 90210 model for me to really care.  At least Verhoeven
didn't give us the cute blond kid who carried a picture of his girlfriend
back home in his wallet...


>
>I feel the need to defend this movie because of so many others that have
>characters, but you don't CARE if they die or not.  Or sometimes, you're
>hoping they WILL hurry up and die so the movie will be over and you can
>go home.  There are plenty of movies that fit this niche, and Starship
>Troopers isn't one of them.  If they make a sequel, I fully plan on
>checking it out.
>


	Sadly, if they make a sequel, which they probably will because I
think that ST is going to make megabucks, I will probably go see it too.
And I'll likely be equally pissed off.  Given, the characters weren't bad,
and maybe I'm being extra harsh because of the movie they were in, but they
still weren't Emily Bronte.


>Just my 5 cents worth Rod, no hard feelings and don't take this
>personally.


	Ditto.  Cool.  Zero offense taken.  Reasonable people can take
entirely different opinions on the quality of a film and still be
reasonable.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2073
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 9 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2074



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bilandian Fonts
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Astrophysics question
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
re: Flogging ships?
Mail for Timothy Collinson
Timothy Collinson
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Jumppoints (JTAS 22) revisited
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Opinions on Heavy Gear?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2073
Re: Piracy -- The new era!
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2073
Piracy unstoppable?
Re: Starship Trooper Review
[none]
Re: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger
Re: Starship Trooper Review

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:37:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bilandian Fonts

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >>> Ooh ooh, Mistah Kottah, how about this if you want weird:
> >>> 26 half-characters, which form a letter when combined.
> >>> This makes life horribly difficult for transcription, of course.
> >>> But it allows an oodle of combinations.
> >>
> >>That's a good idea, Eppstein, and its what we imagined the "orginal"
> >>Vilani would be similar to. Something like the Korean Hangul alphabet,
> >>where to sounds join to form a single glyph for each syllable.
> >>
> >>Pretty difficult to practically use on english computers tho'. :)
> >>
> >>MAYBE sometime I'll design a Hangul-like alphabet with the included
> >>keyboard resources for Mac, so it's easy to type. (Type "sa" and get one
> >>glyph). I have no frigging idea how to create "dead-keys" on the PC,
> >>though.
> 
> The PC does it in the keyboard driver. You load the support for the
> appropriate "country" and you get the "correct" dead keys. I'd have to
> do some digging into my MS-DOS Propgrammer's Reference Manual to find
> the details on *how* you tell the driver.

In Windblows, the most likely candidate for using a truetype font, there
are system routines, like on a Mac for localization, beyond which
proponent sayeth not, because proponent knoweth not!

Leonard's right in that it's the keyboard driver, but in Windows, as in
the Mac, direct-to-hardware routines all have warning signs on them:
"Don't touch this, you'll break it!" 

I suspect you actually need to explore the TrueType programming reference,
as that's the abstraction layer where this will be handled.

I've seen fonts on the Mac that require you to press two keys per
character, no matter what language support you use...I have one called
InstantLogo where all the shifted characters automatically move the cursor
back to press another key.

Oh, you're going to ask me where I got the InstantLogo font..HA!
Somewhere...probably somewhere from one of the Mac online font archives at
the wustl ftp site (http://archive.wustl.edu biggest honking ftp site in
the world, at last count they had 18 or 20 gig on line, for just about any
platform in existence)



Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 09:28:57 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>get you to a safe distance.  What kind of boneheads does Verhoeven take us
>for?

	Typical American moviegoers, unfortunately. The average IQ on this list is
probably higher than 98% of the US population, and the critical thinking
faculties are a damn sight more developed ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 97 16:35:41 GMT
From: Shane Thomas <s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Astrophysics question

Leonard Erickson asked some questions about pulsars etc.

Here's what I believe to be reasonable answers, although if anyone knows
better...

1. It is suggested that a "typical" pulsar will have a lifetime of about
10^7 years.

2. All pulsars slow down as they get older.  Since the slowest pulsar
known has a period of approx 3.75 seconds, this is probably a reasonable
guess at the rotation period of a newly quiet ex-pulsar.

3. The surface magnetic field will exceed 10^8 tesla (10^12 gauss) (i.e.
about 10^9 times the Earth's surface magnetic field).  This is most likely
to be a dipole field and so can be considered to fall off as 1/r^3,
although the details get very messy.
As an aside, this field strength means that the surface layers will NOT be
ionised unless the temperature exceeds about 10^9 K.

Given that a typical neutron star has a radius of about 10 km, the magnetic
field at a distance of r km will be about 10^12/r^3 tesla.

- --
Shane N Thomas, Oxford, England
s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:54:48 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

I saw the damn thing too, and what Roderick said yesterday?  Make it a double.

He since wrote:

>        IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do
>Plan 9 as Verhoeven had to do ST, I think we'd have a contender on our
>hands.  The eye candy would likely be just as good, and the story about on
>a par.

Except the titular characters would be wearing powered angora sweaters.

And I doubt we'd have the "testosterone-pumped girls", too -- which were
laughable as it was, I thought.

Look on the bright side: in a decade or so, Joel and the robots will be
skewering _Starship Troopers_ and people will scratch their heads.  "Oh,
yeah, I think I heard about that one.  Cheap ripoff of _Aliens_, right?"

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:17:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Flogging ships?

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  No. However, I assume that anyone who captures a ~60 MCr trader
>isn't going to hang around. I doubt Mr. Biggs (sp.) really wants
>to visit the U.K. anymore, either.

Unfortunately for him, the newly signed extradition treaty with Brazil is
being used to give him a flight back to the UK at Her Majesty's cost.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:18:26 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Mail for Timothy Collinson

Sorry to clog up the list, but I've been trying to contact Timothy 
Collinson <Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk> with no success - I get a 
message from the postmaster saying it couldn't be delivered because 

> Router: Unable to open mailbox file SINOTES/SOUTHAMPTON      
> INSTITUTE mail.box: You are not authorized to use the server 

tc, can you get in contact and tell me what I'm doing wrong so I can 
send you some more religions?  Ta!

 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:51:42 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Timothy Collinson

('scuse, me, rest of the list)

Timothy -- your email server keeps kicking back my replies to you.  Hope
this reaches you, though I don't know why or how it should.

The garbled character in the name of the Sayat NPCs' ship was a
circumflexed "e" -- supposed to represent the sound in English "bay, neigh,
say" (I think... allowing for probable dialect differences between you and
me). I've since rewritten it as {ei} -- so "Gelektelkeikuttin" works fine,
too.

Yes, I am frankensteining together the Sayat language, Yaskoydray have
mercy upon my soul.  Vilani still will take scheduling precedence, though.
Glad you liked the Sayat!  Hope they come in handy someday.  Thanks also
for the DA#3 summary.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:28:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Rose Ketterling <rezznor@quad.quadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> >get you to a safe distance.  What kind of boneheads does Verhoeven take us
> >for?
> 
> 	Typical American moviegoers, unfortunately. The average IQ on this list is
> probably higher than 98% of the US population, and the critical thinking
> faculties are a damn sight more developed ...
> 


The only thing remotely appealing was the acid fire weapon of the bugs.
Though myself and the geeks I went with mostly did mst3k comments
throughout the entire thing.

The movie might have been redeemable had they actually done something with
the bug culture other than have them just kill things.


Siskel & Ebert: 2 thumbs up their respective backsides


Rezz-


                  -]       Rose Ketterling        [-
                  -]    rezznor@quadrunner.com    [-

          Never attribute to evil what can be satisfactorily
                        explained by stupidity

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:29:15 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Jumppoints (JTAS 22) revisited

In my article "From Port to Jumppoint" (JTAS 22), I established detailed
rules for restricting, on the basis of the capability of a starship's Jump,
where in the destination system a ship may appear from jumpspace.  In that
same article, I made reference to the fact that the rule-of-thumb 100
diameters from nearby masses for a jump egress (radius-based from the mass)
was just that, a rule-of-thumb.  For some Red Giant stars, it was possible
that the jumppoint was actually inside the surface of the star (ala "The
Mote in God's Eye").  I am now providing the details of the procedures to
determine this impact.

First, using Book 6 (or your preferred Traveller reference), determine the
mass of the object in Solar Mass Units.  Take the cube root of this SMU
quantity and multiply by the Jump Determinant 139.2, the result is in
millions of kilometers.

It is that simple!  What may take some more time, is converting to units
of Solar Masses.  For example, Jupiter is listed in the Observer's Handbook
(RASC) as being 317.833 TMU (Terran Mass Units), while the Sun (Sol=1 SMU)
is 332,946.0 TMU.  To convert to SMU for Jove, divide 317.833 by 332,946.0.
This mean's Jupiter's mass is 0.000954608 SMU.  Take the cube root of that
(0.098463453) and multiply by the Jump Determinant (J=139.2) and you find
that the minimum safe jump distance from Jupiter is 13.71 million kilometers
from its center.  This compares well with 14.298 million kilometers by the
"rule-of-thumb."

The Jump Determinant (J) falls off more rapidly for masses similar to that
of Terra's, and especially of somewhat higher density.  Recommendation:  use
the rule-of-thumb for terran worlds and/or satellites or terran or gas giant
worlds whose jump points are unconfined (see JTAS 22).  In fact, the Jump-Mass
function has a dual maxima distribution:  best around Gas Giant masses and
main sequence stellar masses.  Optionally:  the referee may use mass-based
Jump Determinants exclusively (more time to make friends and influence
people before skittering off to hyperspace).

Please also note that the rule-of-thumb is usually reliable for stars in the
mass range of Sol and most of the main sequence (V) stars.  That is why the
Jump Determinant J is sometimes called the Solar Determinant.  There are only
a few cases of stars with surface radii which exceed the safe Jump radius.

Two (what should be rare) cases to note are the Black Hole and Neutron Star.
The Neutron Star will be quite far (higher J) from the norm, and the Black
Hole borders on an infinite density with an infinitely small radius.  I leave
this up to the referee to determine effects.

For reference, statistics for a few "known" Gas Giants:

Sz  Name      Diameter(E)   TMU            SMU         J(m)        100D
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
GGL Jupiter   142,980 Km  317.833 TMU  0.0009546 SMU  13.71 MKm  14.30 MKm
GGL Saturn    120,540 Km   95.159 TMU  0.0002858 SMU   9.17 MKm  12.05 MKm
GGS Neptune    51,120 Km   14.500 TMU  0.0000435 SMU   4.89 MKm   5.11 MKm
GGS Uranus     49,530 Km   17.204 TMU  0.0000517 SMU   5.18 MKm   4.95 MKm

As may be seen with the above data, lower densities than normal (hence a
larger radius) may be construed as the exceptions to the 100 diameter rule-
of-thumb.  Also, the Jupiter data may be explained with the fact of his
extreme (1/15.4) oblateness.  Also note that the diameters are given for
the 1 Bar atmospheric pressure level.

(Repost to HIWG from over a year ago.)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:14:51 -0500
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

Ok..... normally I just keep my mouth shut and read on the list, ( normally
my comments arent welcomed by the technos on this list ) but I feel like I
need to make a point or two here.

Film is a visual medium.  That is all.  The reason this film looked like "
eye candy " is because thats what it was.  ST was a not a military
documentary on tactics, it was not a social comment on Fascism, it was not
a documentary on aerodynamics, and it was NOT a book.

So far everyone here has been going on and on ad nauseum about the lack of
military tactics involved in the film.  I have never been a military man,
but I could spot errors in the film as well.  Do you guys understand why
this was?  Because it was a movie.  ST was not produced to explain military
tactics to the audience.  ST was produced to look good, keep the audience
entertained, and make money.  The very little I know about military tactics
tells me that this film was not going to be about tactics.  As far as I
know, no film ever has been and very likely no film ever will be.  If you
wanna see tactics in action, join the military, read a book, or take a
class.  Dont expect a movie to show it to you because it will not happen. 
Directors are far more interested in keeping their film visually
entertaining than militarily correct.  When the decision is made to either
make the film militarily correct or to keep all the troops in the shot, the
shot will win every time.

The same thing goes for the aerodynamics questions and the social cause
questions.  Folks, this is a movie.  It is nothing more.  The reason the
drop ships looked clunky is probably ( as one person pointed out in jest )
because they needed to do it that way for the film.  Probably had some
boxes for troops to run out of and needed a way to CGI that into the film. 
Thats all, no more.  They dont feel the need to be aerodynamicly correct
for one major reason :  The director liked the way it looked.  

Same goes for the Nazi style uniforms.  They look cool.  Thats it.  Thats
all.  No underlying meaning.  Verhoeven did not want to make a fascist
epic, he wanted uniforms that look cool.  Thats it.  Nothing more.

As for being like the book, this is the closest you will EVER see.  Do you
know why?  Because no directors vision can match the power of your brain
reading a book on film.  It cant happen.  It is impossible.  Your internal
vision of the book will be far better than anyone directing a movie can
produce.  Why?  Becuase your brain produces imagery that appeals to one
person.  Verhoeven had to make a film that appeals to his audience, which
had better be pretty damn big or it'll never pay for that CGI budget.

Have you ever seen Henry V or Hamlet as done by Kenneth Branagh.  Branagh
is a genius that Verhoeven could never be worthy to lick the boots of, but
guess what?  None of Branagh's films can ever possibly match the power of
reading Shakespeare on your own.  Again, Branagh's work is to make
Shakespeare visual, even though the Bard designed his work to be seen.  A
daunting task, but one that will NEVER be accomplished.  The best he can do
is use that story and its elements to create an enjoyable film.

I realize this is a long comment and that I will get flamed mercilessly by
you guys, but I feel like it needs to be said.  Motion Pictures are not
there to be documentaries.  If want that, stay home and watch the Learning
Channel or Discovery.  If you want something just like the book, then stay
home and read the book.  If you want eye candy, go see the movie.  You wont
be disappointed.  If you go into the film expecting more than this, then
you will be hurt and disgusted every time.  EVERY TIME.   You are wasting
your money if you expect to see a book transformed exactly into the film. 
It wont happen and it cant.

I reread ST three times this past week and enjoyed it far better than the
film.  I suggest that you do the same.  It'll save you money.  I picked up
a copy of the book to give to a friend at a local used book store and it
cost $0.65, a far cry from the $4.50 I paid for the eye candy.

I enjoyed both the book and the movie, because I went into the film knowing
what to expect.  I was not dissapointed.  In fact, I was pleasantly
surpirsed by some of the accuracy in the film.  As I read your comments
about Event Horizon, Starship Troopers, and Contact, I wonder how you guys
ever enjoy yourselves in a theatre. 

Do you guys enjoy nitpicking the films?  Is that part of the process?  Do
you guys like picking it apart instead of enjoying it as the medium it is? 


The reason Event Horizon looked Gothic was to keep the film looking a
horror movie in space.  The reason the crew went bonkers in full view of
the camera was to show you the crew going bonkers in one shot.  Its the
same reason that lasers in Star Wars are visual light and not x-ray lasers.
 Its the same reason the Enterprise makes that sound as it passes you.  Its
the same reason that X-Wings and TIE fighters look like WWII fighters.  Its
all in the visuals and the film experience.  Thats all.  Nothing more.  

Sorry to rant so much, but I couldnt take it any more.

John


It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 19:03:50
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Opinions on Heavy Gear?

Some people on the list have ported their campaigns to either GURPS or CORPS.

I've read good reviews of the Heavy Gear stuff. 

Can someone post some ideas/opinions on integrating HG rules/tech in
Traveller? 
Has anybody tried it?





__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:31:14 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2073

Jory wrote:

>>Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
>>the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
>>was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
>>so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
>>and losing one was painful.

Didn't surprise me one bit.

Diz must die by the end of the film because she is a sexually aggressive
female. The other female lead (the pilot) survives because she is a
properly sexually reticent female. That's Hollywood Morality 101.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:37:44 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- The new era!

>What would we need to change to make piracy at the frontier a hazardous, but
>potentially profitable, undertaking?  How would you set up a successful
>pirate?

The first thing we need is an unfriendly government or pocket empire a
subsector or so outside the borders. The second thing we need is a friendly
government or megacorporation inside the border that provides starports,
markets, and is not particularly concerned with the well-being of the
unfriendly power.

While there are no successful pirates, there are successful Protection
Forces of ex-military or retired corporate security ships which have been
hired to secure the safety of shipping outside the border. Sometimes a
guild of free traders contracts with a mercenary company to form an
Independent Protection Force unafiliated with any government or
megacorporation.

Friendly free traders or subsidised merchants are being harassed by agents
of the unfriendly government, and must be protected. This protection takes
the form of enforcing regulations (e.g. a transit tax  which the unfriendly
power does not recognize on ships refuelling at nonaligned gas giants),
confiscating contraband (e.g. a shipment of fusion plants which don't have
a waybill signed by a friendly customs agent), escorting merchant shipping
(e.g. informing an unfriendly merchant ship that a friendly merchant has a
contract for delivery of its cargo), suppressing piracy (like the SDBs
around an unfriendly planet which are attacking friendly traders),
defending free trade (e.g. blockading a non-aligned planet to protect it
from the economic uncertainty caused by unfriendly merchant ships
attempting to sell the same products as friendly ships at a lower price),
fulfilling treaty requirements (e.g. arrest of an unfriendly starship
captain who has been convincted in absentia of attacking a protection
force), among other tasks.

A typical protection force would include several large cargo vessels,
enough battleships or cruisers to ensure their safety in unfriendly
territory, and fighters or scout craft to provide pickets and recon. The
force has a contract to provide escort service with the merchants, their
owning corporation or starport, and are paid accordingly. Any contraband
(like the aforementioned fusion plants) or proceeds of crime (like the
starship engaged in anticompetitive practices) are legally turned over for
reward to friendly authorities, or claimed as salvage by the protection
force.

Typically the force will operate outside both friendly and unfriendly
borders, but may stage unscheduled visits to unfriendly planets for piracy
suppression or treaty enforcement. They retreat to friendly territory for
rest, trade, and repair.

Of course the unfriendly government makes hysterical claims of piracy
against the protection forces but this is obviously absurd because, as
everyone knows, pirates are just lone ships attacking targets of
opportunity. The unfriendly government may file criminal charges against
the protection forces, demand their extradition, or threaten retaliation
against friendly business or government interests. However, friendly forces
cannot substantiate the charges, do not believe they would receive a fair
trial, and anyway the force members are all retired and not representatives
of their government or corporation. However, any military action against
the protection forces would be regarded as an attack against friendly
citizens and would be met with appropriate retaliation.

>Obviously some factors need to be taken into consideration.
>
>Motivation - how to motivate the captain and crew to repeatedly raid shipping.

The same things that motivates any employee; a good salary, a pleasant
working environment, a generous pension plan. These would be provided by
the party funding the force. Contraband or salvage recovered during the
contract may be kept as a fringe benefit.

>Security - Up to a point, risk can be dealt with.  Certain death will not be.

A protection force is large and well-armed enough to take on the occasional
SDB or patrol squadron. Though they have some legal power as citizens of
the friendly government, they will have to be careful to avoid large
military patrols. Consider it a high-risk, high-return job opportunity.

>Facilities - the ship will need someplace to go to.  A free port?  A port
>official that would be willing to look the other way for a sufficient
>donation?

Unnecessary, except in unfriendly or neutral territory. The friendly
megacorp or government has plenty of starports, businesses, and employees
willing to offer their services. They can legally sell or take possession
of anything they salvage in unfriendly territory and may well be regarded
as heroes.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 13:57:22 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Well Roderick, I do agree, "Contact" is the year's best movie, hands
down.  I went and saw it twice by my self; took a couple lady-friends to
see it.  And took my parents to see it.

I think if there were many more good sci-fi movies being made all the
time, I may not have liked ST as much as I did.  but the sad fact is,
I'm always starving for some new Sci-Fi movie and Hollywood don't make
very many.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:45:29 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2073

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> Jory wrote:
> 
> >>Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
> >>the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
> >>was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
> >>so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
> >>and losing one was painful.
> 
> Didn't surprise me one bit.
> 
> Diz must die by the end of the film because she is a sexually aggressive
> female. The other female lead (the pilot) survives because she is a
> properly sexually reticent female. That's Hollywood Morality 101.
> 
>  + GMG +
> 
>  

That's too bad, because of the two, I personally would have married
Diz.  :) I thought the other one was far too boring.

                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:34:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Piracy unstoppable?

>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:19:55 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy mechanics (long)
....
>Add this to the fact that a ship that is equiped to
>defeat a ship that attacks it is also a ship that is
>designed to defeat a ship it attacks (which would
>be even easier since you can determine the tatical
>situation) means that even if you go to the trouble
>of getting that info you can't really stop piracy
>anyway.

Hello,
  I managed to figure out what you said here, but the underlying
reasoning is unclear. Presumably you're saying that (all else being
equal), a surprise attack by one a trader against an identical or
weaker trader will most likely succeed? Agreed, although it would
help if someone suggested rules for the first minute or two of such
ambush engagements.

  This is actually an important underpinning of my thesis of pirates
of opportunity - in the SFB universe it wouldn't really work, as you
couldn't close to chew through shields decisively, etc. It does not
follow that a free trader can take any sort of warship, or that if a
600 Dt ship should somehow be acquired for regular pirate operations
without attracting notice that it would be easily capable of taking
on a 400 Dt warship.

  The idea of any reasonably sized trader-pirate taking on a 1000-odd
ton warship of similar or higher techs is ludicrous under High Guard.

  Speaking of ludicrous, we now return you to the movies... :)
        
        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:04:05 +0100 (MET)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, John Watts wrote:

[Hints about the wiseness of "playing along" when watching a movie
deleted.]
> Its the same reason that lasers in Star Wars are visual light and not
> x-ray lasers. 

<rant mode="nit picking techie">Laser do _not_ show up visually when
travelling through vacuum, whatever its wavelength is. Lasers do _not_
move at subsonic speeds in atmospheres.</rant>

Yes, this had nothing to do with your post, but I just couldn't resist. ;)

Steinar Knutsen, stud.scient., SP4, PSA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:48:49 -0600
From: "David Murray" <murray13@home.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:53:57 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 6:23 PM
Subject: [T97#2057] DGP/Roger Sanger

>A similar situation obtains with respect to AI and Macrocosm, two
>non-Traveller-related products for which he also painted glowing
>pictures, but which, to this day, are still as much vaporware as
>Windows for Toaster-ovens.

[DISCLAIMER: I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out something about
this paragraph]

Unfortunately, MS is now pushing Windows CE as the operating system of choice
for embedded applications.  One of the industry magazines
_Embedded_Systems_Programming_ had quite a few articles about it.  Sooo, even
though I don't believe that a Toaster-Oven requires much intelligence, it could, and
probably already has been implemented.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:12:12 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

John Watts wrote:

>Ok..... normally I just keep my mouth shut and read on the list, ( normally
>my comments arent welcomed by the technos on this list ) but I feel like I
>need to make a point or two here.

Believe me, I'm not a techno by any stretch of the imagination, but I
really thought this movie blew relativistic chunkmass.

>So far everyone here has been going on and on ad nauseum about the lack of
>military tactics involved in the film.  I have never been a military man,

I should clarify my wholehearted endorsement of Roderick's retching review.
My own complaints were chiefly the cardboard characters barely wheezed
into convincing two-dimensionality, and the plot conceived by dingbats and
actualized by stunned ferrets with attention deficit disorder -- who also
apparently wrote the script, I would guess as an economy measure to permit
greater deployment of irrelevant and unimpressive computer graphics.  The
winning characteristic was the woeful seriousness and self-contentedness of
the whole porridge, which makes it rather more fun to skewer.

>The same thing goes for the aerodynamics questions and the social cause
>questions.  Folks, this is a movie.  It is nothing more.  The reason the

Personally, I don't believe that movies, more than any other sort of
cultural production, live out their little life cycles in a tidy,
hermetically sealed universe of their own.  In this case, I wish I _could_
believe that.

>Same goes for the Nazi style uniforms.  They look cool.  Thats it.  Thats
>all.  No underlying meaning.  Verhoeven did not want to make a fascist
>epic, he wanted uniforms that look cool.  Thats it.  Nothing more.

Whether Verhoeven wanted to or not isn't the point, nor is the existence of
underlying meaning the question to ask.  Overlying meaning is going to be
supplied the movie by its viewers -- but now we're edging into hermeneutics
again, and that's more than I can handle right now.

Actually, I found the fascist flavoring pretty amusing; close, even, to
thought-provoking.  I mean, the thrilling future of humanity is a
totalitarian military oligarchy, and these are the _good guys_.  I felt a
bit guilty about cheering for the alien and not Ripley in _Alien(s, II)_,
but in this one, I felt just great about it.

>As for being like the book, this is the closest you will EVER see.  Do you
>know why?  Because no directors vision can match the power of your brain
>reading a book on film.  It cant happen.  It is impossible.  Your internal
>vision of the book will be far better than anyone directing a movie can
>produce.  Why?  Becuase your brain produces imagery that appeals to one
>person.  Verhoeven had to make a film that appeals to his audience, which
>had better be pretty damn big or it'll never pay for that CGI budget.

Verhoeven was in no way _forced_ to make _Starship Troopers_ into a
big-budget special effects vehicle.  It could easily have been a low-budget
art-house flick in French.  No, make that Cantonese.  It probably should
have been.  Jackie Chan should have been in it.  It would have given it
some CLASS.

>Channel or Discovery.  If you want something just like the book, then stay
>home and read the book.  If you want eye candy, go see the movie.  You wont
>be disappointed.  If you go into the film expecting more than this, then
>you will be hurt and disgusted every time.  EVERY TIME.   You are wasting
>your money if you expect to see a book transformed exactly into the film.
>It wont happen and it cant.

I agree with you there 100%.  It is possible, however, for a book-based
movie to not really, really suck, which is what, I think, I and others are
finding so... sucky about this one.

>surpirsed by some of the accuracy in the film.  As I read your comments
>about Event Horizon, Starship Troopers, and Contact, I wonder how you guys
>ever enjoy yourselves in a theatre.

_Extra_ butter... on the popcorn.  Hee hee.

Look, I thought the book was really dumb and tedious.  (Talk about
flamebait.)  I went to the movie expecting something worse, something like
a bad knockoff of _Aliens_, and thought the less it resembled the book the
better it might be.  But crap is crap is crap.  This movie doesn't even
reach that transcendent level of deadly-serious cheapness that elevates it
into the realm of Badfilm, of Bulldada.  It's shoddy and _smug_ about it.

>Do you guys enjoy nitpicking the films?  Is that part of the process?  Do
>you guys like picking it apart instead of enjoying it as the medium it is?

I enjoy the _medium_ immensely.  Individual movies I enjoy in their own
terms, when I can, and when I can't, it pleases me to pull their legs off
one at a time and watch them wriggle.  Then I bat them around a bit, chew
'em some, and leave them on my favorite human's doorstep.

>The reason Event Horizon looked Gothic was to keep the film looking a
>horror movie in space.  The reason the crew went bonkers in full view of
>the camera was to show you the crew going bonkers in one shot.  Its the
>same reason that lasers in Star Wars are visual light and not x-ray lasers.
> Its the same reason the Enterprise makes that sound as it passes you.  Its
>the same reason that X-Wings and TIE fighters look like WWII fighters.  Its
>all in the visuals and the film experience.  Thats all.  Nothing more.

Yes; and it sucks.  And it's really not excusable.  I think it's a
non-intrinsic problem that science fiction is a film genre that is
currently defined for most purposes by sloppy plotting, flat
characterization, aborted attempts at imagination, and lots of noise and
light.  It's simply an outgrowth of the action/adventure film template, one
that's dependent upon special effects and futuristic sets and costuming for
its butt-to-seat bonding ability.  How many science fiction films of the
last twenty years can you name that don't include at least one explosion,
one brawl, and one more or less reuniformed archetypal Nazi?

Semi-sequitur:  _Gattaca_, I hear, isn't bad.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2074
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 10 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2075



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
1000 diameters and instant jumps
Starship Troopers comments (spoilers, long)
*** STARSHIP TROOPERS:  Review *** [Pseudo Spoilers]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:32:09 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

At 09:54 AM 11/9/97 +0800, Kenji wrote:

>I saw the damn thing too, and what Roderick said yesterday?  Make it a
double.
>
>He since wrote:
>
>>        IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do
>>Plan 9 as Verhoeven had to do ST, I think we'd have a contender on our
>>hands.  The eye candy would likely be just as good, and the story about on
>>a par.
>
>Except the titular characters would be wearing powered angora sweaters.

Damnit!  You beat me to that comment by mere minutes!



- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:28:24 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

At 02:14 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>So far everyone here has been going on and on ad nauseum about the lack of
>military tactics involved in the film.  I have never been a military man,
>but I could spot errors in the film as well.  Do you guys understand why
>this was?  Because it was a movie.

"Full Metal Jacket" featured US Marines moving and operating in a way that
mirrored my own training and experience.  "Cross of Iron, showed the
differences between German and Russian tactics on the Eastern front without
deviating from the primary story of the old vet and the brash young officer
who hungers for glory.

Or "A Bridge to Far".  Excellent film that showed real talent in how the
paratroopers moved and fought.

>Same goes for the Nazi style uniforms.  They look cool.  Thats it.  Thats
>all.  No underlying meaning.  Verhoeven did not want to make a fascist
>epic, he wanted uniforms that look cool.  Thats it.  Nothing more.

He could have made a *small* gesture of respect to the original and kept
the almost British sounding dress uniforms..

>As for being like the book, this is the closest you will EVER see.  Do you
>know why?  Because no directors vision can match the power of your brain
>reading a book on film.  It cant happen.  It is impossible.  Your internal
>vision of the book will be far better than anyone directing a movie can
>produce.  Why?  Becuase your brain produces imagery that appeals to one
>person.  Verhoeven had to make a film that appeals to his audience, which
>had better be pretty damn big or it'll never pay for that CGI budget.

Fine.  Make a humans vs. ugly Aliens movie.  We've seen it before (Alien
was a pretty direct rip of any number of monster movies.. intentionally
made that way.)  But to tear a great novel apart and change it completely!
Why bother?  I'm guessing that very few memebers of the "target audience"
have heard of Robert Heinlein, and the movie made bears resembelance to his
novel in only a few names and the most general of plots.

Imagine if we found there was going to be a Traveller movie.  Being the
good TMLers we are, IG flies us to the test showing, where we see hand held
blasters, a sword fight between Strephon and the Black Duke Dulinor (played
by Alan Rickman), small fighters using non-Newtonian movement, etc..

Would you be so quick to say "it only based on Traveller" about that?  I
wouldn't, and I'm always going to be depressed that they destroyed a great
book to make a lousy film.


>Have you ever seen Henry V or Hamlet as done by Kenneth Branagh.  Branagh
>is a genius that Verhoeven could never be worthy to lick the boots of, but
>guess what?  None of Branagh's films can ever possibly match the power of
>reading Shakespeare on your own.  Again, Branagh's work is to make
>Shakespeare visual, even though the Bard designed his work to be seen.  A
>daunting task, but one that will NEVER be accomplished.  The best he can do
>is use that story and its elements to create an enjoyable film.
>
>I realize this is a long comment and that I will get flamed mercilessly by
>you guys, but I feel like it needs to be said.  Motion Pictures are not
>there to be documentaries.  If want that, stay home and watch the Learning
>Channel or Discovery.  If you want something just like the book, then stay
>home and read the book.  If you want eye candy, go see the movie.  You wont
>be disappointed.  If you go into the film expecting more than this, then
>you will be hurt and disgusted every time.  EVERY TIME.   You are wasting
>your money if you expect to see a book transformed exactly into the film. 
>It wont happen and it cant.
>
>I reread ST three times this past week and enjoyed it far better than the
>film.  I suggest that you do the same.  It'll save you money.  I picked up
>a copy of the book to give to a friend at a local used book store and it
>cost $0.65, a far cry from the $4.50 I paid for the eye candy.
>
>I enjoyed both the book and the movie, because I went into the film knowing
>what to expect.  I was not dissapointed.  In fact, I was pleasantly
>surpirsed by some of the accuracy in the film.  As I read your comments
>about Event Horizon, Starship Troopers, and Contact, I wonder how you guys
>ever enjoy yourselves in a theatre. 
>
>Do you guys enjoy nitpicking the films?  Is that part of the process?  Do
>you guys like picking it apart instead of enjoying it as the medium it is? 
>
>
>The reason Event Horizon looked Gothic was to keep the film looking a
>horror movie in space.  The reason the crew went bonkers in full view of
>the camera was to show you the crew going bonkers in one shot.  Its the
>same reason that lasers in Star Wars are visual light and not x-ray lasers.
> Its the same reason the Enterprise makes that sound as it passes you.  Its
>the same reason that X-Wings and TIE fighters look like WWII fighters.  Its
>all in the visuals and the film experience.  Thats all.  Nothing more.  
>
>Sorry to rant so much, but I couldnt take it any more.
>
>John
>
>
>It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
>My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
>It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>
>
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:42:32 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

John Watts wrote:

>
>Ok..... normally I just keep my mouth shut and read on the list, ( normally
>my comments arent welcomed by the technos on this list ) but I feel like I
>need to make a point or two here.
>
>Film is a visual medium.
[snip of bits about film being a visual medium]


	Agreed.  The thing is is that a film that provides visuals that
make absolutely no real-world sense just turn me off.  Films that are
supposed to be military science fiction but that are full of flagrant
scientific and military inaccuracies really annoy me.

	Look; you're computer-literate, right?  How would you react to a
film where somebody downloads a 5.6 terabyte database over the net at prime
time via a 9600 baud modem in 5 minutes, and then stores the whole darn
thing on a floppy without so much as zipping it?

	You'd say that it was complete BS, that the producers, writers, and
directors were completely computer-illiterate, and that that inaccuracy
just blew the whole plot out of the water for you (at least I think you
would, anyhow).

	This is why I got so pissed at ST.  I don't care how pretty it
looks, people outrunning nuclear fireballs just doesn't cut the mustard.
Is a little verisimiltude too much to ask?


>
>As for being like the book, this is the closest you will EVER see.  Do you
>know why?  Because no directors vision can match the power of your brain
>reading a book on film.  It cant happen.  It is impossible.  Your internal
>vision of the book will be far better than anyone directing a movie can
>produce.  Why?  Becuase your brain produces imagery that appeals to one
>person.  Verhoeven had to make a film that appeals to his audience, which
>had better be pretty damn big or it'll never pay for that CGI budget.


	Agreed.  The thing is is that he could have hired science
consultants to iron out the worst of the inaccuracies, and military
consultants to at least make the military aspect credible.  Instead, he
just went for visuals over content.  The wrapping was awful pretty, but the
content just wasn't there.


[Hamlet comments snipped]
>I realize this is a long comment and that I will get flamed mercilessly by
>you guys, but I feel like it needs to be said.  Motion Pictures are not
>there to be documentaries.  If want that, stay home and watch the Learning
>Channel or Discovery.  If you want something just like the book, then stay
>home and read the book.  If you want eye candy, go see the movie.  You wont
>be disappointed.  If you go into the film expecting more than this, then
>you will be hurt and disgusted every time.  EVERY TIME.   You are wasting
>your money if you expect to see a book transformed exactly into the film.
>It wont happen and it cant.


	Flamed mercilessly?  Naw.  You weren't in the movie's credits :).
Seriously, though, even given that it's a visual medium, is a little
believability too much to ask?  Contact was believable (there were only
three errors that I could spot in it; the lightspeed propagation delays in
the opening sequence, using long focal length refractors to observe a
meteor shower, and Ellie forgetting about parallax at the end), indeed went
to great lengths to be as scientifically accurate as possible, was great
eye candy, AND made lots of money.  Why the hell couldn't Verhoeven have
done the same?  Hiring technical consultants would have cost peanuts (even
at 100 grand apiece he could have bought a bunch of them for a measly 1% of
the film's budget), and probably made an equally enjoyable and _believable_
film.

	I don't care how nice the fonts are and how well laid out the term
paper is, if you tell me that Marie Curie studied at the Sore Buns
Institute and that George Washington was elected because he was good with a
chainsaw, you deserve a big fat "F", and to hell with your self-esteem :).

>
>I reread ST three times this past week and enjoyed it far better than the
>film.  I suggest that you do the same.  It'll save you money.  I picked up
>a copy of the book to give to a friend at a local used book store and it
>cost $0.65, a far cry from the $4.50 I paid for the eye candy.
>


	Already have.


>I enjoyed both the book and the movie, because I went into the film knowing
>what to expect.  I was not dissapointed.  In fact, I was pleasantly
>surpirsed by some of the accuracy in the film.  As I read your comments
>about Event Horizon, Starship Troopers, and Contact, I wonder how you guys
>ever enjoy yourselves in a theatre.


	If my intelligence isn't being insulted, plenty.  And if my
intelligence is insulted, I have a lot of fun slagging the film online
afterwards :).


>
>Do you guys enjoy nitpicking the films?  Is that part of the process?  Do
>you guys like picking it apart instead of enjoying it as the medium it is?
>


	Well, I have a hard time turning off my critical faculties.  I just
tend to have problems with science fiction movies that make science errors
so glaring a 4th grader could pick them out.  For the record, I loved
Contact.  It was nice eye candy, thought-provoking, and made a real effort
to be scientifically credible.  What I'm driving at is that intelligent,
credible science-fiction movies can be made, and they can be enjoyable and
commercially successful, too.  It's been done.  Just because it's a visual
medium doesn't mean that it has to be BS.


>
>The reason Event Horizon looked Gothic was to keep the film looking a
>horror movie in space.  The reason the crew went bonkers in full view of
>the camera was to show you the crew going bonkers in one shot.  Its the
>same reason that lasers in Star Wars are visual light and not x-ray lasers.


	Actually, they aren't lasers.  Laser light is coherent, and does
not travel at subsonic speeds.  I think they're plasma weapons, personally
:).


> Its the same reason the Enterprise makes that sound as it passes you.  Its
>the same reason that X-Wings and TIE fighters look like WWII fighters.  Its
>all in the visuals and the film experience.  Thats all.  Nothing more.


	Tie fighters look like WWII fighters?  Not to me :).  And all this
stuff designed to make some yutz whose education was seriously croggled by
a fundamentalist-run school board relate to the film has the problem of
turning many of us who know how ships passing in vacuum are supposed to
sound right off.

	Basically, I think that failing to even make a token attempt at
verisimilitude in an SF film, when the cost of doing so would be
insignificant relative to the total budget of the film, and it wouldn't
detract in any way from the entertainment value of the film and would in
fact improve it, deserves harsh slagging.  And Verhoeven is incredibly
guilty of this sort of negligence.  Aerodynamic dropships would probably
have looked _better_.

	What I am complaining about is that ST could have been a much
better film if Verhoeven had taken minimal efforts to make it look
credible.  Having the MI advance in tactically credible formation would
have looked better than having them mill about in a mob all the time; they
would have looked _meaner_.  Giving them LAAWs, artillery, and landmines
would have made for even _more_ lovely explosions.  Aerodynamic dropships
would have looked sleeker and meaner.  And so forth.  ST is basically IMHO
and YMMV mostly BS wrapped up in some pretty special effects.  In ST,
perfectionism was possible, and instead we got a botched up job.  Thus my
harsh review.


OBTRAV: Tieing all this back in to Traveller, one fo the reasons I like the
game so much is because it makes the extra effort to be as scientifically
and astronomically credible as one can reasonably expect in an RPG.  The
handwaving and bullshittium, although present, is kept to a bare minimum
and there are constant attempts at refining it.  If there wasn't this
attempt at making it consistent and believable, it wouldn't be a quarter of
the game it is.  Because of it, Trav makes sense.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:40:45 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

David J. Golden wrote:

>
>>get you to a safe distance.  What kind of boneheads does Verhoeven take us
>>for?
>
>	Typical American moviegoers, unfortunately. The average IQ on this
>list is
>probably higher than 98% of the US population, and the critical thinking
>faculties are a damn sight more developed ...


	Agreed, although I suspect that your average American moviegoer
would read the list, note the pircay thread, and begin to edge away
nervously...:)

	Still, I can't believe that Verhoeven believed that even the
average American moviegoer would buy people outrunning nuclear fireballs...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:40:40 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Jory wrote:

>
>Well Roderick, I do agree, "Contact" is the year's best movie, hands
>down.  I went and saw it twice by my self; took a couple lady-friends to
>see it.  And took my parents to see it.


	My girlfriend and I saw it twice.  We both loved it.  If it's on
sale in the video stores for Xmas I'm going to buy her a copy.


>
>I think if there were many more good sci-fi movies being made all the
>time, I may not have liked ST as much as I did.  but the sad fact is,
>I'm always starving for some new Sci-Fi movie and Hollywood don't make
>very many.

	Sad but true.  This is why I go see just about every SF flick that
comes out... and have such fun cutting the bad ones to pieces.  It's
therapeutic :)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:26 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Kenji wrote:

>
>I saw the damn thing too, and what Roderick said yesterday?  Make it a double.


	Cheers.  Here, have some pretzels.


>
>He since wrote:
>
>>        IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do
>>Plan 9 as Verhoeven had to do ST, I think we'd have a contender on our
>>hands.  The eye candy would likely be just as good, and the story about on
>>a par.
>
>Except the titular characters would be wearing powered angora sweaters.


	Yeek.


>
>And I doubt we'd have the "testosterone-pumped girls", too -- which were
>laughable as it was, I thought.


	Well, I dunno.  I can buy the testosterone-pumped girls.


>
>Look on the bright side: in a decade or so, Joel and the robots will be
>skewering _Starship Troopers_ and people will scratch their heads.  "Oh,
>yeah, I think I heard about that one.  Cheap ripoff of _Aliens_, right?"


	Yeah... in the meantime, all we can do is bitch about how it could
have been so much better without costing more than 0.1% more...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:10:32 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

I would like to run a my next Traveller game with the following rules:

1) Jumps are instantaneous.
2) You have to travel fairly distant from any significant gravity well in a
system before you can make a safe jump (on the order of 3-5 days).

I understand this will make communications in the Imperium much quicker.
However, it will still take a fair amount of time to travel places.

What I ask of the conglomerate brainpower on this list are some suggestions
as to how this would change the nature of the Imperium. Specifically, how
might this have affected the Rebellion?

Other comments on this topic would be quite welcome as well.

<shameless but sincere compliment>
A big thank-you to the list in any case. I have read a lot of enlightening
things about my favorite sf setting on it.
</shameless but sincere compliment>

Joseph Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:40:36 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Starship Troopers comments (spoilers, long)

I saw this film today. It was a scream.

I have to thank everyone who reviewed it on the list, because I really
would have hated the movie if I had gone in looking for something good. As
it was, I knew what to expect and that made all the difference. It was
funny. It was hilarious, even.

I am so glad they didn't have power armor in this film after all. It would
have been terrible to see such a cool idea wasted in a film like ST.

Aside #1: Do you think that the MI has a product called "Nuke-Be-Gone?" I
really enjoyed them nuking big bugs and then, moments later, walking onto
ground zero. I suppose there is going to be a Klendathu-war syndrome now,
with MIs coming down with all types of radiation-sickness illnesses. :-)

I do not subscribe to the belief that because it looks pretty it can
therefore be nonsense. This is what we got with Starship Troopers --
nonsense that looked pretty when it wasn't over-the-top gory. The people
were pretty (especially the girl turned captain, I want to bear here
children). The spacecraft were pretty (except for the dropships -- they
could have taken a lesson from Aliens. Now *that* was a kewl dropship). The
uniforms were quite snappy. Indeed, even the Arachnids were properly
pretty: They looked perfect for the part. All these pretty elements,
running around looking pretty, with nothing to do but die gory deaths
because they were as brainless as they were pretty. Amazing.

Aside #2: I suppose there is a grenade shortage on earth. There is nothing
that screams grenade like a closely-packed horde of aliens looking for
blood. Maybe MI grenades can only work if they are swallowed or otherwise
stuffed into the abdomen of a target.

This was an entertaining film for me. Not on it's merits as a work of
film-making, because it had few, but because it was just so much fun to
laugh out loud at silly dialog, goofy cliches, and classic Hollywood plot
points that you can see a mile off.

Traveller?

The Imperials would have little problem with the Arachnids or their
physics-defying asteroid bombs. Imperial starships have radar. Also,
Imperial starships are armed, and might just actually use their weapon
systems once they realize they are under fire. Imperials also have neat
things like grav tanks, mines, artillery, real nukes, and, of course, a
professional army. Hell, I bet the Vargr could take 'em.

Note: I am a graphic designer with a degree in psychology. I have no
military training. I lose wargames regularly. I have close to nil in the
understanding of unit tactics. The things the MI did in Starship Troopers
were just plain stupid. The problem is, this is not what made the movie
bad. It was just a bad motion picture overall, with a juvenile script,
mediocre acting, and generally poor directing.

I enjoyed seeing Starship Troopers. I just though the movie was terrible.
:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:43:25 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: *** STARSHIP TROOPERS:  Review *** [Pseudo Spoilers]

Okay, everyone else has taken their potshots!  Now, allow me!  :)

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Sorry if I didn't give enough room for those still prone to see the film
after all of this vile criticism.

Okay, I went to the theater.  I sat down.  I watched trailers.  And then they
started the film.  Pretty standard, eh?  Then...  The newsreel footage kicks
in.  Hysterical.  Brilliant.  Then, Buenos Aires 90210 starts up :)  And it
stays surprisingly close to the book for quite awhile.  And, strangely, I
liked the twisted love triangle (eventually, love rectangle) and found it
very entertaining...

Then he gets to boot camp, and we have Full Metal Jacket Lite, and its funny.
 I liked it for the most part (although the triple-lindey flip during the
"Lazer Tag" battle was a little bit of extra cheese).  But, all in all I
generally liked the characters and the plot.  And, the newsreels were funny.

Now we go to war, and here we have heaping extra helpings of mozerella,
cheddar, monterey jack, etc etc.  Same complaints everyone has :)  "Okay,
here are these beasties thick shells and viscious claws, and we'll arm our
boys [and girls] with futuristic M-16s".  No air support, no ground support,
no "naval" support.  What, were the commanding officers on crack???  Every
soldier has an underslung grenade launcher, but its only used in one scene in
the movie...  The planes!!!  The planes flew with their wings almost
touching...  Why???  WHY???  Big bugs shooting plasma out of their heads and
butts???  Sounds like something I came up with in 3rd grade or something.

However, in the midst of all of this retardation, we have...  EXCELLENT, and
I mean EXCELLENT special effects.  Really, truly AMAZING special effects.
 Wonderful looking buggies running about tearing up infantrymen.  The
computer animation was fantabulous, the mechanical special effects (sheared
heads, physical injuries, spurting blood) were all _expertly_ done.  Now,
some people have much against gore, that's fine.  I however don't (most of my
life I wanted to go into horror special effects, and my idol was Tom
Savini...)  And I don't think enjoying the blood and guts and goo and grue is
really all that "sad", so it wasn't a big turn-off.

And of course, seeing Doogie Hauser, S.S. was worth the price of admission
alone, and so was Verhoeven's twistedly hysterical newsreels (reminded me of
the commercials spritzed throughout "Robocop", which were that movies selling
points).

I came out of the theater with a generally good feeling, and I enjoyed
myself, which is really what its all about, eh?  And all in all, most of the
rest of the theater did from what I can tell (there was actual clapping and
cheering when Rico destroyed the big buggy with his grenade)...

Yeah, and why didn't anybody use the grenades they had???

Things that would have made this good movie a great movie:  Powered armor,
remotely realistic tactics, support for our grunts, Rico's father surviving
and joining up with the MI, and an ending with Rico _about_ to make the final
jump onto Klendathu, with us never knowing who wins and who loses...

Um...  That's all for now.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:02:11 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

>And I doubt we'd have the "testosterone-pumped girls", too -- which were
>laughable as it was, I thought.

Um...  I'm going to look at this comment for what it appears to be.  Just
about blatant sexism, if my head is on straight.

I apologize if you were making some joke that I didn't get in relation to Ed
Wood, but it doesn't seem that way.  You found the idea of women on the
battlefield laughable?

Just something skewed about that.  Sorry.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:13:34 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>	Typical American moviegoers, unfortunately. The average IQ on this list is
>probably higher than 98% of the US population, and the critical thinking
>faculties are a damn sight more developed ...

I'll be smug and arrogant here.  I missed "genius level" IQ by 1 point.  I
enjoyed the movie.  I don't think intelligence has much to do with it :)

The movie appealed to me on a visceral level.  There was gunplay, nuclear
explosions, bombs, and people being torn limb from limb by murderous bugs
intent on galactic domination.  There was boot camp, cool looking space
ships...

And big, huge bugs that shot plasma out of their derrieres (pardon my
French).

Not to mention attractive women, snappy uniforms, cool newsreel footage, and
thousands and thousands of computer rendered bugs crawling across the
landscape.

Yes, I could pick the movie's realism apart left, and right, and up and down.
 However, the first half stayed surprisingly true to the book (which is
something people haven't been touching on), just from the opposite angle.
 Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while
Verhoeven poked fun at the fascist future.

Like, I said, I could tear it apart visciously, and have all night.  I'm sure
that my friend is sick of my bitching about "realism" by now.  It doesn't
change the fact that I laughed at the newsreels very loudly, I was sad when
Diz died, and I would have joined the army had their been a recruiting
station at the concession stand :)

Semo  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:13:35 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>	Typical American moviegoers, unfortunately. The average IQ on this list is
>probably higher than 98% of the US population, and the critical thinking
>faculties are a damn sight more developed ...

I'll be smug and arrogant here.  I missed "genius level" IQ by 1 point.  I
enjoyed the movie.  I don't think intelligence has much to do with it :)

The movie appealed to me on a visceral level.  There was gunplay, nuclear
explosions, bombs, and people being torn limb from limb by murderous bugs
intent on galactic domination.  There was boot camp, cool looking space
ships...

And big, huge bugs that shot plasma out of their derrieres (pardon my
French).

Not to mention attractive women, snappy uniforms, cool newsreel footage, and
thousands and thousands of computer rendered bugs crawling across the
landscape.

Yes, I could pick the movie's realism apart left, and right, and up and down.
 However, the first half stayed surprisingly true to the book (which is
something people haven't been touching on), just from the opposite angle.
 Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while
Verhoeven poked fun at the fascist future.

Like, I said, I could tear it apart visciously, and have all night.  I'm sure
that my friend is sick of my bitching about "realism" by now.  It doesn't
change the fact that I laughed at the newsreels very loudly, I was sad when
Diz died, and I would have joined the army had their been a recruiting
station at the concession stand :)

Semo  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:24:46 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

>  Any science-fiction movie that has as one of its review comments
>"sexy" (granted probably snipped by the people advertising the film from
>a much longer piece) has one strike against it in my book already.

I don't see a problem with sci-fi being sexy.  Maybe I'm just silly :)

>  If the film is sufficently bad, a much worse fate will befall those
>responsible: they will be ignored.  The Hollywood establishment will
>forget that they exist, and eventually they will *beg* to have their
>bodies hung from the 'HOLLYWOOD' sign just so that they can get the
>publicity.  Eventually the cruelist fate of all: they will all end up as
>"victim number two on an episode of "Tales From the Darkside" or as
>"lover number one" in "Red Shoe Diaries".

Probably not in this case, whether its deserved or not.  Sold out amazingly
quickly at my local theater Friday night (I choose to support Bean as my
first choice, for other reasons), and it was still selling out today, in the
early afternoon, three days later.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2075
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 10 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2076



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Starship Troopers
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Piracy unstoppable?
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Troopers
Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Petition to rename the TML
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: WOW
tc really is here!
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:53:36 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

>17. Ignore those plasma bolts the mindless Bugs are firing at your ship -
>they're just "random light";

Cool, my chance to be nitpicky!  The firing of the plasma bolts was
(according to intelligence) supposed to be random and light, not "random
light".

I.e:  The bugs weren't firing alot of plasma, and weren't able to target the
plasma they did fire.

Semo 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:29:59 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Semo wrote:

>>And I doubt we'd have the "testosterone-pumped girls", too -- which were
>>laughable as it was, I thought.
>
>Um...  I'm going to look at this comment for what it appears to be.  Just
>about blatant sexism, if my head is on straight.
>
>I apologize if you were making some joke that I didn't get in relation to Ed
>Wood, but it doesn't seem that way.  You found the idea of women on the
>battlefield laughable?

Not at all.  I find Hollywood butch laughable.  Babes with a 'tude being
passed off as... well, as anything but babes with 'tudes -- oh, and with
personal trainers -- don't get my disbelief off the ground, much less
suspended, even less suspended breathlessly.

Trust me, girls on testosterone don't look much like anything in _ST_.  Yet
another failure of versimilitude.

>Just something skewed about that.  Sorry.

Nah.  Not as skewed as my life, bro.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:12:09 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> types:
>In interviews, Verhoeven is claiming that the film's overt Naziness is
>intended as subversive ironic commentary on the violence of American pop
>culture. This defence is just bollocks. Like _Robocop_ and especially
>_Total Recall_, _Troopers_ blatantly panders to the violent tendencies it
>claims to be subverting. Verhoeven's a hypocrite too unsubtle to notice the
>obvious flaws in his artistic strategy.
>I would have some respect for him if he would just admit he likes to make
>gore-filled brainless trash. Because his movies are about as subversive as
>NRA billboards.

   Jeez, this is Verhoeven.  subtly is just not his strong point.  In
addition 
to "Total Recall" and "Robocop", this is the guy who made "Basic Instinct",
and
"Showgirls."

   The overt "Naziness" has nothing to do with American pop culture, it's just
that uniform designers in 1930's Germany had flair!  They were not afraid to
copy what they liked either.  Gestapo uniforms are based on Massachusetts
State
Police Uniforms!  Look at just about any Hollywood SF film made the last 30
years.
The nifty military uniforms all look like reworked SS uniforms.

   BTW, your analogy to "NRA billboards" just doesn't fly.  The billboard
monopoly
here in the enlightened People Republic of Massachusetts won't sell space
to any
organization that doesn't toe the victim disarment line.   You're more
likely to
see a Verhoeven film that doesn't have lot's of gore and/or naked females
in abundance.  :-)



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:08:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

>I have heard this claim before, and don't understand it. How can a spin
>around two axes be converted to a single axis?

[deletions]
>Consider two axes perpendicular to each other; an object in this
>arrangement could spin with its pole pointing anywhere along a great
>circle. How can one possibly do this with a single axis? What about
>precession; a precessing object has two angles of rotation and I see no way
>it could be reduced to one.

A precession can't occur in free fall without a force acting
on the object.  (It occurs only when there is a torque acting
on the axis of rotation).  All spining objects spin
about one axis.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:05:02 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy unstoppable?

Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:19:55 -0800, "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>It does not
>follow that a free trader can take any sort of warship

I am not talking about a free trader.

>, or that if a
>600 Dt ship should somehow be acquired for regular pirate operations
>without attracting notice that it would be easily capable of taking
>on a 400 Dt warship.

I don't agree it would stand out as much.  Much bigger ships
are still regarding as ships only suitable for frontier
operations off the main trade routes.  Clearly merchant
vessels get even bigger.  Even if we assume that independants
are smaller than corporate merchants, there is ample room
for ships considerably bigger than 200-400 tons.

>  The idea of any reasonably sized trader-pirate taking on a 1000-odd
>ton warship of similar or higher techs is ludicrous under High Guard.

Well, I do think that 1000-1500 tons is in the right range.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:46:24 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:43:36 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>It presumes that you don't do reconaissance in force because
>>the point of that is to make sure your patrols can safely
>>report back.  The ability to sit where you can jump at

>  Risk is a factor, and acceptable at various levels.

You miss the point.  Since the patrol ships can safely
jump away, there is little risk.  Therefore there is
not need for them to even be armed.

>>any moment can obviate that need.  Assuming by
>>anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding

>  No, attacking enemy shipping when it's most needed - during the
>initial rush of assault fleets and resupply operations expected
>after the first clash of battlefleets. Not having such a capability
>frees up enemy escort assets, and reduces friction in enemy planning.

But you don't prepare to attack enemy shipping right at the
start of a war by spreading your ships evenly  over every world
with trade in every system in the imperium (like you need to
do for antipiracy action).  It's done by grouping into raiding
fleets that need to be ready the instant war breaks out.

>>(anti-anti-logistics?) since anti-logistics will
>>be forays of ships grouped into small fleets into
>>enemy territory and is not really much for stopping
>>piracy.  The best way to deal with

>  That's a wartime deployment, and in any event most of the ships
>detailed for such missions will be the smaller escort (Gazelles,
>etc.) which it now appears are too small to fight enemy traders.

I'm sorry, what attacks against enemy shiping in peace
time are you envisioning?  And why would the deployment
differ?

>>this is to set up convoys which, by definition, means
>>you don't have enough ships to patrol every system
>>to protect every ship.

>  It means that convoys are the most efficient use of those
>resources for point defense, as you mentioned on the topic of
>fleet concentration. However, random interdiction efforts will
>still play a great role in counter-guerre de course operations,
>as they have throughout the modern era.

I'm sorry, I didn't follow.  How do you "randomly interdict"?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:18:00 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Troopers

I too saw Starship Troopers.

I must say, I went into this film not expecting much.  I felt the
promo's looked pretty cheesey.

But, I must also say that the film surprised me on some level.

Yes, it has bad acting.  Yes, there's a pseudo-facisist feel to it.
Yes, the dialog is straight from a comic book.  And, yes, there are
Robocop rip-off's throughout (if a director can "rip-off" his own work).

I was pretty bored with the first half of the film.

Just when I was wishing I hadn't come, I found myself getting involved
in the fight scenes--just for the fun of it.

I normally don't like brain-dead action films.  I usually like a little
more gray-matter meat to sink my fangs into.  Films like "Twister", with
their amusement park ride special effects, and "Eraser" with its
dead-head action do nothing for me.

But, in spite of all that, I really found myself getting caught up in
the action sequences.

I can't help it.  It was fun!

I really don't want to like the film, but I did--just for the bug
fights.

I even felt sorry for the buggies once or twice.  And, I was pulling for
Dez (who was played by the best actor in the film) to get with Rico (the
main character--who was played by a not-so-good actor).

I'd say go see this movie, but just don't expect much out of it.  If you
go in with low expectations and just try to have a good time, you
probably will.

I'll give it an average movie rating of 3 out of 5 stars.

The CGI was incredible (which I was worried about because some of the
previews I saw made it look cheesey).  The space ships really looked
good, and the bugs ran a close second.

If you are looking for a wonderful story, this is not the film for you.
This movie has got all of the great acting and charm of the defunct
"Space:  Above and Beyond" TV show (sarcasm).

But, if you are looking for one of the few amusement park movies that
are really fun, then this is it.

PV's direction of the action sequences was impeccable, putting the film
a cut above the genre.

It's too bad he didn't play the rest of the film a little more
straight.  The comic-book feel that worked so well in Robocop just
doesn't come across as good in this film.

I would have much perfered to see more seriousness, like in "Aliens",
but I didn't get that.

What I got was a movie that was fun to watch one time, but then you
laugh, walk out of the theatre, and forget about it.

Of the other recent movies I put in this class--Independence Day,
Twister, etc.,--I like this one the best.

I even liked it better than a recent film that was played straight,
Event Horizon.

If you are in the mood for it, go see it.  Just keep your expectations
low and have a good time.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:17:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:10:32 -0600
> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
> 
> I would like to run a my next Traveller game with the following rules:
> 
> 1) Jumps are instantaneous.
> 2) You have to travel fairly distant from any significant gravity well in a
> system before you can make a safe jump (on the order of 3-5 days).
> 
> I understand this will make communications in the Imperium much quicker.

Effectively instantaneous, using X-boat analogs stationed at 1000
diameters (from the local star, presumably).  Total delay per system would
be equal to the time to beam the arriving X-boat's data to the one waiting
to leave...in other words, perhaps a few hours, tops.  A message could
travel from Capital to Regina in two or three days.

> However, it will still take a fair amount of time to travel places.

Not really.  You'd rapidly get fueling stations built beyond the 1000-D
limit, allowing ships to 'skip' along from system to system over great
distances, with delay only due to refueling/reprovisioning time -- a day,
tops.  Capital to Regina would be perhaps a four-week run for a J3
military vessel.  You'd only pay the 1000-d 'travel overhead' for systems
you wanted to stop and visit.  Admittedly, merchant vessels would not
'skip' as far as military vessels, but they'd still use this mode rather
frequently to bypass one or two bad markets, unlike the current situation
where it pays to try to buy/sell *something* along the way.

> What I ask of the conglomerate brainpower on this list are some suggestions
> as to how this would change the nature of the Imperium. Specifically, how
> might this have affected the Rebellion?

The Rebellion as we know it would never happen, as the Third Imperium as
we know it would never happen.  For that matter, everything back to and
including the Ziru Siirka would change beyond recognition.  What
repeatedly leads to one form or another of interstellar feaudalism in
"canon" history is precisely the low rate of data propagation; a central
authority *can't* react fast enough to changing conditions beyond at most
a few parsecs, so by necessity, great authority is delegated to local
governors of some kind.

In the situation you describe, a central authority becomes much more
likely.  I would envision a federal system (similar to the US, Canada,
Mexico, ex-USSR, etc.) as being the likeliest outcome.  Also, there would
be far more 'backwater' worlds, places where ships rarely get closer than
1000 stellar diameters. 

It's impossible to overstate how important the properties of Jump are in
creating the Traveller canon history.  Change them in any significant way,
and the 3I as we know it disappears.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:33:53 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>         Still, I can't believe that Verhoeven believed that even the
> average American moviegoer would buy people outrunning nuclear fireballs...

Well Roderick, it HAS been done before.  One easy example that comes to
mind is "Predator", where Arnie outruns and outlives the nuclear
self-destruct mechanism of the Alien's body-armor.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:34:51 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
>         My girlfriend and I saw it twice.  We both loved it.  If it's on
> sale in the video stores for Xmas I'm going to buy her a copy.
> 
> >
> >I think if there were many more good sci-fi movies being made all the
> >time, I may not have liked ST as much as I did.  but the sad fact is,
> >I'm always starving for some new Sci-Fi movie and Hollywood don't make
> >very many.
> 
>         Sad but true.  This is why I go see just about every SF flick that
> comes out... and have such fun cutting the bad ones to pieces.  It's
> therapeutic :)
> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

I also plan on buying it when it comes out.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:40:23 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

Boy Roderick, I think you've set the record for times someone has gotten
me to post to this list in a week!  :)

I quote : 

>        Look; you're computer-literate, right?  How would you react to a
> film where somebody downloads a 5.6 terabyte database over the net at prime
> time via a 9600 baud modem in 5 minutes, and then stores the whole darn
> thing on a floppy without so much as zipping it?
> 
>         You'd say that it was complete BS, that the producers, writers, and
> directors were completely computer-illiterate, and that that inaccuracy
> just blew the whole plot out of the water for you (at least I think you
> would, anyhow).

Ok.  I know the PERFECT example of this.  "Hackers".
The graphics and visuals of hacking were so absurd I was
laughing/groaning thru the whole movie.  If you've seen it, I don't
think I need to elaborate further.  :)

And the comment they made in the film, "686 processor, top of the line"
is so dated by nowadays standards it's almost as comical as that star
Trek episode, "The Way to Eden", with the space-hippies.  <smirk>
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:53:06 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

Another reply here, Roderick :

> Seriously, though, even given that it's a visual medium, is a little
> believability too much to ask?  Contact was believable (there were only
> three errors that I could spot in it; the lightspeed propagation delays in
> the opening sequence, using long focal length refractors to observe a
> meteor shower, and Ellie forgetting about parallax at the end), indeed went
> to great lengths to be as scientifically accurate as possible, was great
> eye candy, AND made lots of money.  Why the hell couldn't Verhoeven have
> done the same?  Hiring technical consultants would have cost peanuts (even
> at 100 grand apiece he could have bought a bunch of them for a measly 1% of
> the film's budget), and probably made an equally enjoyable and _believable_
> film.

What's the deal with the paralellax?  what does it mean?  As to Hiring
consultants, Verhoeven should have hired a Marine Drill Instructor and
maybe some brass to figure things out and show him how things are done.

Take that example of sending the poor radioman up the ridge to phone
home.  Well, they did send him up, but it was the creek, not the ridge. 
I wouldn't have had my troops in such a trap to begin with.  I'd have
had them walking the ridge.  (if I had to).  I would preferred to have
air craft sortie the overran base first and scan the hell out of it,
then air-drop my troops in and form a perimeter with listening devices
and mines (claymores?) ASAP.  THEN, I would have gone inside
investigating, then promptly gotten the hell out.  My air craft would
have been there the entire time, scouting the ground.  Easiest way to
foil a surprise attack is to SEE IT COMING.  I'm sure you military types
could improve vastly on my scenario, but hell, it works better then
Verhaeven's ideas.

I quote again :

>         I don't care how nice the fonts are and how well laid out the term
> paper is, if you tell me that Marie Curie studied at the Sore Buns
> Institute and that George Washington was elected because he was good with a
> chainsaw, you deserve a big fat "F", and to hell with your self-esteem :).
> 
Chainsaw?!  I'm laughing!  I love it!


- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:23:03 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:53:36 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

>>17. Ignore those plasma bolts the mindless Bugs are firing at your ship -
>>they're just "random light";
>
>Cool, my chance to be nitpicky!  The firing of the plasma bolts was
>(according to intelligence) supposed to be random and light, not "random
>light".
>
>I.e:  The bugs weren't firing alot of plasma, and weren't able to target the
>plasma they did fire.

In which case the standard tactic would have been to DISPERSE the big
ships, since a bunched-up fleet makes it easier for "random & light"
anti-shipping fire to hit something. 

Especially when it wasn't light. The plasma bursts also appeared to
grow in size, since a single hit was enough to completely sever one of
the transports completely in half.

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:30:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Petition to rename the TML

Hi folks,

I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
or should that be 'flaming list'.

Any objections?

Dom

PS if that's lost on you look at the above Digest's contents list in the
archive.

PPS I want Pirates! I want Strange Alien Sex! I want biological impacts of
the Terrans on the Vilani, near C rocks, Virus, Fighters, more Pirates. Not
Film Reviewers Daily .<grin>

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:27:33 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:33:53 -0800, you wrote:

>>         Still, I can't believe that Verhoeven believed that even the
>> average American moviegoer would buy people outrunning nuclear fireballs...
>
>Well Roderick, it HAS been done before.  One easy example that comes to
>mind is "Predator", where Arnie outruns and outlives the nuclear
>self-destruct mechanism of the Alien's body-armor.

Actually, Arnold outran the countdown of the self-destruct charge on
the Predator's armor. He hid in a depression outside the actual
explosion radius before it went off, although he probably should have
come down with some fairly serious radiation poisoning.

But outrunning a nuclear blast in a tunnel? No freaking way. Not even
a big rock closing the tunnel right behind them should have helped.

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:13:21 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: WOW

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
> 
> 3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
> 
> Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
> 
> Cripes, that's more than some sectors!
We had seen that already, and most on the list agreed that these B-pop
worlds were one of the many mistakes in FS. Just reduce it to A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:32:09 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: tc really is here!

Just to apologize to anyone trying to contact me last week.  (Particularly
Kenji and John Wood)

Apparently there was some glitch in our mail server on Wed and Fri last
week and this has now been fixed (I'm told).  Feel free to try again and
everything should work fine.

And now.... back to beating up (or not) Starship Troopers....

tc
"Of course, it will probably be weeks if not months before we get to see it
over here in the UK anyway...."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:22:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

At 05:12 PM 11/9/97 +0800, you wrote:
>Look, I thought the book was really dumb and tedious.  (Talk about
>flamebait.)

SQUIK!  Expect near-c rocks infested with plasma excreting bugs to arrive
any moment now..

>  How many science fiction films of the
>last twenty years can you name that don't include at least one explosion,
>one brawl, and one more or less reuniformed archetypal Nazi?

Contact.
The Lathe of Heaven.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:43:14 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

At 12:53 AM 11/10/97 -0800, you wrote:

>Another reply here, Roderick :

>What's the deal with the paralellax?  what does it mean?  As to Hiring
>consultants, Verhoeven should have hired a Marine Drill Instructor and
>maybe some brass to figure things out and show him how things are done.

It's been done before.  The syndicated television show "Soldier of Fortune,
Inc." has a set of advisors from the magazine of the same name, and they go
to great pains to make things as correct as possible IRT tactics,
equipment, and terminology.  As they pointed out in this month's issue,
they can't be completely realistic, since this would mean that night
actions would be a black screen with sound effects, but they do as much as
possible to make the show realistic.

>Take that example of sending the poor radioman up the ridge to phone
>home.  Well, they did send him up, but it was the creek, not the ridge. 
>I wouldn't have had my troops in such a trap to begin with.  I'd have
>had them walking the ridge.

Life sucks.  Especially when you're a soldier.  The RO had to get a message
out, and needed to get to higher ground, so he went.  Walking a ridgeline
is a Bad Thing, BTW.. you get silhouetted against the sky and become an
easy target.  If you need to get yp a hill, stick to the draws and stay low.

>  (if I had to).  I would preferred to have
>air craft sortie the overran base first and scan the hell out of it,
>then air-drop my troops in and form a perimeter with listening devices
>and mines (claymores?) ASAP.  THEN, I would have gone inside
>investigating, then promptly gotten the hell out.  My air craft would
>have been there the entire time, scouting the ground.  Easiest way to
>foil a surprise attack is to SEE IT COMING.  I'm sure you military types
>could improve vastly on my scenario, but hell, it works better then
>Verhaeven's ideas.

<Grin>  *Every* infantryman would love to have the Air Force pound our
route of approach into fused glass for every patrol.  It ain't going to
happen.  Dropping directly into a position that's been overrun is an
invitation to diaster; you drop *behind* the enemy, and support the main
counter attack.  Once again, a few support weapons or APCs would have made
a huge difference.

If they had taken the time to use a few simple formations (wedge, bounding
overwatch, travelling), and had run the script past some veterans for
proper flavor words for the leaders and troops to use, I would probably
have enjoyed the film a bit more, because the combat sequences would have
been a bit more chilling.  Mobs of idiots who've happened to be issued guns
get massacred, ask the Soviet Army of 1941.  These guys never managed to
get me to suspend my disbelief and see them as anything more than extras
and actors in costumes.

Don't even get me started on the shoddy weapons handling...

>I quote again :
>
>>         I don't care how nice the fonts are and how well laid out the term
>> paper is, if you tell me that Marie Curie studied at the Sore Buns
>> Institute and that George Washington was elected because he was good
with >> a chainsaw, you deserve a big fat "F", and to hell with your
self-esteem 
 
>Chainsaw?!  I'm laughing!  I love it!

That's all we needed, a few MI with Fusion+ chainsaws!


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 05:01:44 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

At 02:10 AM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

> Not having read the novel, i don't know if the boot camp thing was in the
>book or was set that from the screen play, but it was quite laughable to me.

Read the book.  Heinlein makes Camp Arthur Curry quite interesting.
 
>    I'm in the US Marines (having been a grunt and now a tanker), so i have
>some perspective on the military aspects.  Of course, I witnessed the US
>Armys Basic Training and AIT for its tankers at FT Knox and that seemed
>quite laughable, too, considering what i went through, but this isn't the
>place for that... : ), with all due respect to any Soldiers on this list.  

The Army needs ten times as many bodies for Combat Arms than the Marines,
plus all the support roles that the Navy takes care of for you.  It's
natural that Army Basic Initial Training is going to be a bit easier.  I
assume you went to Knox for your tread-head training?  Try the Airborne
School at Ft. Benning.  There are only 18,500 soldiers on Airborne status
in the entire Army.  That school is strict!

>I'd call the MI stuff Army equivalent, but it's definately less rigorous
and >stressful than what Marines experience.

Ummm... I went through OSUT (One Station Unit Training) for the Infantry at
Ft. Benning, Ga.  I found the ST basic scenes to be laughable.  You can't
judge what the Infantry does by what happens at the Armor School.

>    Before I ever got onto a rifle range (even the field firing) we were
>quite clear on the safety rules.  The problem wouldn't have been so much in
>removing ones helmet, but on keeping the weapons down range.  A kevlar
>helmet wouldn't stop a str8 direct shot,  anyways.  But i'm sidetracking.

Yes, but the Army sayeth, "weapons shall be kept up and down range, yea
verily, and so mote it be!"  As I mentioned in another post, the weapons
handling in ST had me giggling or in shock for much of the film.

To the non-gunners:  Any decent ground combat school teaches you to ove
with your finger OFF the trigger, but outside the trigger guard where you
can quickly bring it on when needed. This keeps accidental discharges down.
 In ST, *everybody* was *running around* with their weapons ready to rock!
I'm amazed the bugs had to kill anyone, these losers should have been
offing everyone around them.  No wonder they didn't use grenades, they
couldn't be trusted!

>     I left Event Horizon w/ a much worse taste in my mouth.  This movie
>seemed to go a lot quicker than it actually went.  I didn't like the
>recruiting advertisements and "computer news interface."  Seemed corny to
>me.

That's one Verhoven touch I sort of like.. it gave a feel for the
enviroment that these folks live in.

>     The MI didn't seem to use any sort of combat formations to me.  Just
>looked like a mob of guys (and girls... ; )  )  running around.  No
>discipline, no semblance of tactical employment.  I don't really expect this
>from a movie, but it's kind of silly to watch.  Kind of reminds me of Space:
>Above and Beyond.  

Would it have taken that long to organize them into squads and teach them
the bounding overwatch?

>      Their rank structure is pretty amusing too.  Some kind of mixed
>enlisted and commissioned structure.  Having one of the few (visible) sgt's
>being a radio operator was kind of amusing.  Did anyone catch on just what
>sized unit Rico was in?  What was it called?  I can't seem to remember, but
>what was the size?  They had a lieutenant in charge, so i'm assuming it's
>platoon equivalent.  A company would rate a Captain, but they're structure
>was pretty funky.  ("what, your lieutenant is dead?  You, (acting) Sgt, do
>you wanna be Commanding Officer.")  And the fact that the Doogie Howser guy
>was a Colonel (full bird, i assume) even though he entered at the same time
>as the other 2.  That "Fleet" woman making Lt (jg, or full?) isn't so
>purposterous in wartime.  

It reminded me of a take on the post-Trotsky Soviet Army with "Leaders" and
"Fighters", and not much rank.  Originally, the unit was supposed to be a
platoon, but by the time the killing really began, I had ceased to care.

In WWII, specialist like pilots made rank real fast.  In 1945 there was a
Full Colonel who was 24.  He kept the rank in the new USAF Reserve, and
reverted to his original Army rank of Staff Sergeant.  Interesting story,
because while he served as an active duty NCO, he spent one weekend a month
as the commander of an USAF(R) Squadron!

>    I liked how they killed Diz.  Not just have everyone live happily ever
>after.  Seemed very bablon 5 ish and un trekkish.   Still, I did vocally
>remark on how it seemed everyone around the 3 main characters seemed to die
>and resulted in promotion for them.  Who wants to serve w/ these guys? Lol. 
Something I overheard long ago: "I'm not going on OP with you! You're good
looking and have a girlfriend, I'm a farm kid.  If we get hit, it's always
the nice farm kid who dies!!" 

>    All in all I give it a C.  2 stars... whatever.  : )  Decent, but not
>laudible.

If they had called it *anything* but Starship Troopers, and had just
changed the names, I would have enjoyed it more.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2076
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 10 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2077



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Petition to rename the TML
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
ST Obtrav
Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Starship Troopers
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Farewell (slightly premature)
Re: Starship Troopers Review

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 05:24:33 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

At 11:30 AM 11/10/97 +0000, you wrote:

<snip>

>PPS I want Pirates! I want Strange Alien Sex! I want biological impacts of
>the Terrans on the Vilani, near C rocks, Virus, Fighters, more Pirates. Not
>Film Reviewers Daily .<grin>

You want the near-c rocks?  Ho-kay!

sf/x:  rummaging in closet, 1950's lab sounds

There you go, Dom, look up right about..... NOW.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 05:28:06 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

At 11:27 AM 11/10/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Actually, Arnold outran the countdown of the self-destruct charge on
>the Predator's armor. He hid in a depression outside the actual
>explosion radius before it went off, although he probably should have
>come down with some fairly serious radiation poisoning.

Consider that soon after Predator, Ahh-nold decided to try light comedy.
Obviously had a few neurons scrambled there...

>But outrunning a nuclear blast in a tunnel? No freaking way. Not even
>a big rock closing the tunnel right behind them should have helped.

ObTrav: Characters in underground Zhodani base, when missile bunker
explodes.  As I'm describing the fireballs and blowing debris, one of my
players calming states: "I roll to disbelieve."

He made it too!


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:41:39 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: ST Obtrav

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

[snip]
>
>Traveller?
>
>The Imperials would have little problem with the Arachnids or their
>physics-defying asteroid bombs. Imperial starships have radar. Also,
>Imperial starships are armed, and might just actually use their weapon
>systems once they realize they are under fire. Imperials also have neat
>things like grav tanks, mines, artillery, real nukes, and, of course, a
>professional army. Hell, I bet the Vargr could take 'em.

	Agreed.  The Impies would simply crsh the Bugs like so many roaches
under a steamroller.  The Zhos would have a lovely time scrambling their
psionic communication and turning them on one another (or the Impies).  The
Vilani would likely go rooting around in the AAB, find some sort of really
good insecticide dating back to the Ziru Sirka, slightly modify a very
reliable crop duster design, and using standard procedures for dealing with
planetary infestations of ludicrous large and violent insects deal with the
problem as a team effort.

	I agree.  Even the Vargr could take'em.  Watching the K'Kree go up
aginst them would be interesting (Bugs are a little too big to traple
underhoof very easily).  The Aslan would likely watch ST for giggles
between rounds of shredding Bugs and then go around sneering at every human
they met.  I dread to think about what the Sayat would do, but it would
likely be very Freudian.  Famille Spofulam?  Walkers.  Big ones.  Fast
ones.  With lots of legs.  With really, really big, wide feet on 'em and
two-foot electrified superdense spikes on the soles.  And 4-meter diameter
magnifying lenses on remote manipulator arms.  The Hivers might have a hard
time as Bugs seem pretty hard to manipulate.

	All in all though, drop the Bugs into the Trav universe and they'd
rapidly become a big gooey mess on the pavement.  What can I say?  Trav
makes sense!


	And, in passing, for the first time this geological era, I just got
a digest where nobody was working on the piracy dead-horse-turned-mohole!
Woohoo!

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:41:23 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> I would like to run a my next Traveller game with the following rules:
> 
> 1) Jumps are instantaneous.
> 2) You have to travel fairly distant from any significant gravity well in a
> system before you can make a safe jump (on the order of 3-5 days).
> 

Have you read the Mote in God's Eye, by Pournelle and Niven? That's
pretty much what they do. You may want to pick it up for flavor.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:43:27 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

>Have you ever seen Henry V or Hamlet as done by Kenneth Branagh.  Branagh
>is a genius that Verhoeven could never be worthy to lick the boots of, but
>guess what?  None of Branagh's films can ever possibly match the power of
>reading Shakespeare on your own.  Again, Branagh's work is to make
>Shakespeare visual, even though the Bard designed his work to be seen.  A
>daunting task, but one that will NEVER be accomplished.  The best he can do
>is use that story and its elements to create an enjoyable film.

Whoop. Gotta strongly disagree with ya there. Shakespeare was meant to be
performed, not read. Henry V went so far beyond my expectations that it was
breathtaking. Saw that movie five times before it left the big screen. I
try and catch every version of Hamlet I can to see the various directors'
interpretations of the play. Most don't work, a few do. But I can honestly
say I've been fortunate enough to never have seen one that's a waste of
time.

For a true Theater of the Mind experience, listen to Branagh's Renaissance
company doing Hamlet on audio CD.

Once had a friend who bragged they'd read all of Shakespeare. "You're
missing the point," I thought.

It'd be like reading Traveller and never playing it. (A weak tie-in, yes,
but I just had to drag the thread back to Traveller).

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:43:27 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

>Have you ever seen Henry V or Hamlet as done by Kenneth Branagh.  Branagh
>is a genius that Verhoeven could never be worthy to lick the boots of, but
>guess what?  None of Branagh's films can ever possibly match the power of
>reading Shakespeare on your own.  Again, Branagh's work is to make
>Shakespeare visual, even though the Bard designed his work to be seen.  A
>daunting task, but one that will NEVER be accomplished.  The best he can do
>is use that story and its elements to create an enjoyable film.

Whoop. Gotta strongly disagree with ya there. Shakespeare was meant to be
performed, not read. Henry V went so far beyond my expectations that it was
breathtaking. Saw that movie five times before it left the big screen. I
try and catch every version of Hamlet I can to see the various directors'
interpretations of the play. Most don't work, a few do. But I can honestly
say I've been fortunate enough to never have seen one that's a waste of
time.

For a true Theater of the Mind experience, listen to Branagh's Renaissance
company doing Hamlet on audio CD.

Once had a friend who bragged they'd read all of Shakespeare. "You're
missing the point," I thought.

It'd be like reading Traveller and never playing it. (A weak tie-in, yes,
but I just had to drag the thread back to Traveller).

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:52:29 -0600
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Starship Troopers

Well, I'll toss in my opinion...

Movies like this depend on the viewer's ability to turn off the rational
part of their brain. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you analyze this movie, its bad. Real bad. The holes completely destroy
any joy you might get from the pretty pictures :)

However, if you are the type of person who can sit back and go "ooooh,
pretty pictures" and NOT analyze, even subconsciously, then you'll have a
great time.

I am in the second crowd. I expected this movie to be the level of Robocop
and Total Recall (since it was the same director), so I turned off the
higher functions of my brain, sat down with a huge bucket-o-popcorn (with
double butter) and had a great time.

I agree with every criticism that has been posted about the movie - and if
you are the type of person who cannot ignore this, you will be upset (or
pissed) about the movie. But if you can ignore it - great flick.

This isn't a flame about those who didn't like it - some people just have
different ways of looking at things. I respect those who didn't like it,
and I understand the reasons why. I just think that those of you who are
wavering on seeing the movie need to ask themselves - can I ignore these
flaws. If you can, SEE THE FILM. I had a blast. But if you can't ignore
such things, then you'll want to slit your wrists at the end :)


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:23:13 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) kindly reposted the 
following:


> Given that lasers more or less cannot miss due to errors in aiming the beam
> where one wants it you can still miss due to evasion of the target and
> lightlag. Here's some calculations (this is a rehash previously posted by
> me but as it seems to have gone totally unnoticed I'll repost it);

Thanks -- I wish I'd seen this before.

> Assumtion 1: The difficulty in hitting a ship with a laser is not
> due to random spread of beams while firing but rather timelag from
> when you get the sensordata and the time the beam/pulse arrives.

Fair enough.

> This means that if a ship is accelerating straight with no
> variance in accleration value nor direction a shot always hits as
> long as it is within sensor resolving range.

i.e. a target with known (sensed) constant v is always hit.  Agreed.

> The formula for accelerated distance is:
> (1) s = at^2/2
> a = acceleration in m/s^2, 1G = 9.81 m/s^2

The Traveller standard gravity is 10 m/s^2, FWIW.

> The timelag for sensor/beamtravel is target to sensor and back
> again with lightspeed. We need to make two measurements to get a
> velocity value and three for acceleration value of the target.
> Assume we need to know the location, velocity and acceleration of
> the target, this gives us:
>
> (2) t = 6R/c where
> R = range to target, c = 3E8 m/s (slightly less actually, I know)

Can't this be reduced for passive sensor observations, which are 
effectively continous?  Or indeed, for a series of active pulses; 
once you've made three, all you're doing is updating your previous 
picture with every pulse, so surely the interval should be 2R/c.
(I'm assuming that active sensors work best with only one pulse "in 
the air" at once.)

Received data is always R/c old.  In addition, a shot will take R/c
to arrive at its target.

Thus I make t = 2R/c for passive/active sensor locks.

> The distance the target needs to accelerate to be effective is
> about a ships radius which if assuming the ship is a cube is
> approximately:
> (3) r = v^(1/3)/2
> v = ships volume in m^3

I think this needs to be a ship's diameter, not a ship's radius, 
because a shot aimed at the target's bows is still going to hit if 
the ship moves by r.  In other words, FC will always lead a little to 
compensate for the effects of acceleration.  Thus

r = v^1/3 where r is the distance the ship must move to evade.

>
> Now, plug (2) into (1) gives us:
> (4) s = a(6R/c)^2/2 which becomes s = a18R^2/c^2

I'd make this s = 2a(R/c)^2

> The range at which a certain shipsize with a certain evasion acceleration
> gets effective we'll find by assuming (4) equals (3):
> (5) v^(1/3)/2 = a18R^2/c^2

v^1/3 = 2a(R/c)^2

> Shuffle the terms about to get R as a function of the other terms:
> (6) R = (c^2*v^(1/3)/(36a))^(1/2) which looks better like:
> (6) R = c(v^(1/3)/(36a))^(1/2)

R/c = sqrt(v^(1/3) /2a)

> Now, plug some numbers into (6) to see what we get. Assume a type S
> scout which in your universe is 1400 m^3 and definately not a
> sphere but we leave that aside for now. It evades with all its
> acceleration of 2G. This gives us: c = 3E8, v = 1400, a = 2*9.81
> and from (6) R = 37.8 thousand kilometers or about one hex in
> space combat.

By my figures, this is sqrt(18) too small and should be roughly 150 
thousand km / 5 hexes.

Doesn't this imply that the target ship is moving perpendicular to 
the firing ship?  (ships accelerate along a principal axis, usually).
If not, the perceived movement will be less -- say by a factor of 2 
if the target is approaching at 30 degrees from dead-on, rather than 
crossing the path of the firing ship.  Say 10 hexes.

> What does this tell us? That given the above assumtions a ship that
> fires on a 100 dTon ship that evades with 2G will be automatically
> hit if the range is less than a hex. That's OK in the current
> system as most space combat will be at 1 hex or more. How about an
> Azhanti High lightning? According to Fighting Ships it is 60 000
> dTons agility = 0(?) so we use 2G for our calculations. This gives
> us: c = 3E8, v = 840 000, a = 2*9.81 and R = 109.6 thousand
> kilometers or 3 hexes or less. You cannot miss an Azhanti if it is
> within 3 hexes and evades at 2G.

Given the above corrections, that's 3 light-seconds, 30 hexes.

Note that if you fire two lasers together (with a MFD, in TNE/T4 
terms) you *double* your chances of hitting the target.  Thus, three 
lasers fired as a battery will automatically hit an AHL at 9 light 
seconds (90 hexes), VERY long range.

> I like these figures but you may not.

Actually, I preferred yours to mine 8-(

> We can handwave in the computer DM from High Guard with this
> assumption. The timelag calculation ignores the time required to
> analyze sensordata in equation (2). If we assume a base time for
> computation denoted p (for processing) and add this to (2) (2b) t =
> p + 6R/c.  Plug (2b) into (1) gives us: (4b) s = a(p + 6R/c)^2/2
> which becomes s = a(p^2+12pR/c+36R^2/c^2) Equalling with (3) gives
> us (5b) v^(1/3)/2 = a(p^2+12pR/c+36R^2/c^2) What this leaves us is
> left as an exercise for the reader but basically it works as the
> processing time adds a fixed range to the actual shooting range R+
> = pc/6 and for a 1 s processing time (too long to be realistic but
> remember that this is for handwaving purposes) R+ = 50 thousand
> kilometers or about = 2 hexes. 

The analysis of sensor data, compensating for the ship's own evasive 
maneuvers, etc. might actually take a whole second.

t = p + 2R/c (my equation) -> s = a (p + 2R/c)^2/2 (4b)
s = a (p^2 + 4pR/c +4(R/c)^2)/2 = v^1/3

Put R/c = x, quadratic in x
2ax^2 + 2apx + k = 0, where k = ap^2/2 - v^1/3.  Choose +ve root only 
(R > 0)

x = [-2ap + sqrt(4a^2p^2 - 4a^2p^2 + 8av^1/3)]/4a

x + p/2 = sqrt(v^(1/3)/2a)

R/c (effective) = R/c (range) - p/2 (half of processing time)


Even with this, it seems to me that non-linear acceleration (whether 
by turning the ship or by lateral thrust) is the only practical 
form...

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:27:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:25 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>Well, I've said before large organization don't just blow away 1% of their
>>>resources like that.
> 
>>And neither does the Imperial Navy "blow" any amount of their resources by
>>using their ships. They get a certain amount of money each year. If the
>>setup is anything like the institutions here in Denmark, any part of
>>their budget that they don't use is simply lost (and their next year's
>>budget propably cut).
> 
>Yeah, but they want to use that 1% to achieve what they have been tasked to.

David, please break down for once and admit that piracy suppression IS
canonically one of the tasks of the Imperial Navy. Or do you really want
me to quote all the canonical references about how how hunting pirates is
one of the Imperial Navy's routine tasks?

Until now I've thought that your contention was that the other, more
important, tasks of the IN _in addition_ to piracy suppression, most
notably their war-time duties, mandated a force composition that was
insufficient to allow them to perform their piracy suppression duty
properly.

I disagree with you about that, as everybody knows. I believe that the
Imperial Navy will 1) have a considerable number of destroyers and
escorts, and 2) be willing to deploy a small fraction of their cruisers
and even battleships away from their major fleet concentrations in
peacetime. I believe that it is unreasonable to postulate a navy with
as few small ships as you do, and equally unreasonable to believe that the
IN would split up squadrons and then post the individual ships to places
where there are already scores of ships stationed, but at least I can't
point to a bald canonical statement that the Imperium have umpteen
thousand destroyers or that individual ships have been posted to
backwater systems (except the _Tigresses_ posted to Andor and Candory,
and they are clearly a special case). But if you claim that piracy
suppression is not a duty of the IN then I can only say that you are
wrong, WRONG, W*R*O*N*G! And if you really need it, I will provide
references to canonical sources to that effect. Do you?

>The US military would not be happy to be forced to  use 1% of their
>budget to guard banks.  Neither would they be happy if, during the
>cold war, you took 1% of the money assigned to NATO duties and
>reallocated them to coast guard duties.

You do realize, don't you, that the practice of splitting up naval duties
between a navy and a coast guard is something you do in the US? It is not
a universal arrangement. In many countries coast guard duties _are_ a navy
matter (Denmark for one).
 
>>Let me quote from about 20 lines above in your very same posting:
> 
>>"Yeah, but it is, in fact, reasonable that pirates will concentrate on
>>taking cargoes (less determined oppostion, etc. this has been debated
>>and look at the list archive for discussion)."
> 
>>If you can see a difference between that statement and to take something
>>that we both know we disagree on, and have beaten into the ground several
>>times already, and baldly assert them to be true in a reply to posts on
>>another point, then you are a far more subtle man than I am.
> 
>I'm sorry, but ...
>a) Saying something is "reasonable" is not the same thing as saying
>(as you _have_ done) that things are a certain way.

DUH? Saying that something IS reasonable is not the same as saying that
things are a certain way? This is bending the language beyond the breaking
point. The plain fact is that you claimed that it was reasonable after I
had refuted the claim. You do not agree with the refutation, of course, but
that wasn't what you were talking about. You were talking about stating
somthing about which there was dispute as an undisputed truth.

>b) This is not a point that the person I was replying to and I had beaten
>to death and I am not taking an assertion that I made days, or weeks ago,
>that has been responded to several times and simply repeating it as fact.

This is... how shall I put it? There's no polite way to say this: It is not
true. The point that starships cost a lot and that stealing them will cause
a lot of heartache was made weeks, or at least days, ago and so was your
reply that pirates might contend themselves with stealing the cargo and
leave the ship behind. And so was my reply that what was bad for pirates
as a class (stealing the whole ship) was good for pirates as individuals.

>(and you do, in fact, do that a lot)

Maybe I do. I certainly don't believe it necessary to repeat my whole
argument every time I respond to one of your repeated "facts" that have
not, IMO, been adequately (or in some cases at all) substantiated by you
and point out that you were wrong the first time and that time has not
changed anything.

>It's not that fact that you don't always stick "IMO" or such on what you
>post. It's that you take things that I have responded to and simply
>reassert the original post as if it had never been contested.

If (IMO) the arguments you (IMO) used to (IMO) contest the original post
are (IMO) flawed then you have not (IMO) contested them properly.
Excepted, of course, those argument where both sides are roughly
equally reasonable. The problem is that you expect me to consider
arguments that IMO are vastly less reasonable as having the same weight
as arguments that I consider reasonable.  

>This means you either expect me to just accept it or respond all over
>again with the same arguements (which is a huge waste of time).

Expect? Yes, now that I come to think about it, I guess it is fair to say
that that is what I've come to expect. But what I really would _like_ you
to do, however, is to come up with some NEW arguments, some that makes
better sense than the first ones. But I can't claim that I expect that.
So perhaps I should stop responding to your posts. The problem here is
that it _really_ bugs the hell out of me when you baldly state a contested
opinion as an uncontested truth.
 
>>(Now, if I could actually convince him...) It just bugs the hell out of me
>>when he baldly states a contested opinion as an uncontested truth.
> 
>Well, I would say that you should get out of a glass house
>before you throw this particular rock.

No, I'm perfectly aware of the ambiguity of my position. The problem isn't
that we have a difference of opinion. I've had that with other people and
agreed to disagree. I've even had my mind changed on occasion. The problem
is that some of your opinions (not all of them, of course) seems so
unreasonable to me. An analogy would be an argument between a Flat Earther
and a Round Earther. To the casual observer they both seem equally stubborn.
Both of them think his opponent is dead wrong. The difference is, one of
them is wrong. Theirs is not just a difference of opinion.

>>And I note that I'm not the only one that still responds to David. I've
>>been unable to keep up with my e-mail, but I note that most of his most
>>recent batch of assertations have been dealt with by others. How many
>>of you believes that your reply will convince David?
> 
>Hans, there are people responding on both sides.  I'm not the only one
>that responds to your posts either.

No, of course not, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was using
those posts as evidence against you. The point I was trying to make was
that if there are other people posting then it is not just a case of the
two of us going "Is!" "Is not!" "Is too!" at each other. Yes there are
other pro-piracy people, and well met to them. But you will notice that
I also respond to them.

>Maybe you might want to look in you mirror if you want to start looking
>for people who are closed minded.

I'll keep the possibility in mind.

>[It is a sad fact that a post will almost always end up with someone
>thinking that a long thread where two sides have been unable to agree
>means that the "other side" is being closed minded.]

Yep, and often it is a case of both sides being equally close minded. But
"aften" isn't "always" and some times it is a case of only the one side
being close minded.

>It's not the fact that you still participate in the thread that
>is a problem.  It that you simply reassert, in responses directed
>specifically at what I wrote, things you know I have already
>responded to.

This is so important that I will repeat what I said before. All responses
are not created equal. If your response is based on unreasonable
assumptions or faulty or self-referential logic, then as far as I'm
concerned your response does not entitle you to restate your original
assertation as a bald fact.

>You also do this by bringing up a part of the piracy isuse that was not
>what I was responding to (like your turning the Gas Giant thread back to
>piracy).

Well, maybe I shouldn't have done that. It's some time ago and I can't
swear to the course of events.

>Yes, you have a right to do this.  It is a free country. I also have a
>right to call you on the fact that your are doing it and also point out
>that the fact that I am not willing to go into the subject is because we
>have beaten it to death.

You certainly are. But I'd like you to know that I do not consider a
subject resolved just because I am unable to get my opponent to respond
with assumptions and logic that I consider reasonable. If you and I
have run into a deadlock, and everybody else stops posting, then it
would be a good reason to agree that we will both of us let the matter
drop. Sure, I can see the reason in that. But I can't see the reason
in letting you repost a faulty opinion without reacting, just because
you have already reposted the same faulty response to previous refutations
several times. 

>>On most of the subjects that you and I have beaten to death, you have
>>posted an initial statement with which I have disagreed. I have responded
>>with an objection to which you have responded with what I regard as an
>>equally flawed reply. Eventually you have come to a point where you have
>>either ignored a posting or claimed that it boiled down to a mere
>>difference of opinion, something that I usually don't agree with you
>>about.
> 
>And what am I supposed to do?  Every single time I want to discuss this
>subject with anyone else I have to run through the entire subject with
>you all over again?

Tell you what. I will begin to think twice before responding to your
postings on this subject and only do it when you actually state an
opinion as a fact. Just bear in mind that "X is reasonable" is only
a true fact if X _is_ reasonable.

>Of course I point out that we haven't been able to agree with in the past.
>And yes Hans, everything we both post _is_ opinion and our diagreements
>_are_ differences in opinion.

Well, some of it is logic. But yes, most of it is differences in opinion.
So? Not all opinions are reasonable. The opinion that _if_ the Imperial
Navy has very few ships, then they would not be able to patrol everywhere
is reasonable. The opinion that they do, in fact, have so few ships is
less reasonable. The opinion that the Imperium would concentrate every
single cruiser and battleship in a few huge fleets might be reasonable
if one dosen't consider the RN of the Napoleonic period an fair analog
of the IN and if one didn't have canonical statements to the effect that
the IN do split up their squadrons in peacetime. The opinion that ships
specifically aimed at commerce raiding and disrupting enemy lines of
communication are ineffective is IMO just plain wrong, but it wouldn't
shatter my self-image if someone who had tried it out in a TCS campaign
told me differently. The opinion that the IN dosen't use task forces
consisting of a number of lesser ships plus one or two cruisers for
raiding is wrong. The opinion that even if the Imperial navy did have a
large number of small ships they would not use them for counter-piracy
operations is not reasonable. And so on. Some of your opinions in this
matter are reasonable, but many are not. At least, that's my opinion...

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:41:12 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Farewell (slightly premature)

Dear all,

In a couple of weeks, I shall be starting a new job with the 
Department of Trade and Industry down in London.  In direct 
consequence, I shall be leaving TML at the end of the week, and I 
don't know when I'll be back, if ever.  (The DTI's email system is 
famously poor, I'll be *very* busy anyway, and I don't yet have 
anywhere to live, much less a modem and ISP.)

\begin{hugh_grant}
So, um.  Er.  Well.
Um.
\end{hugh_grant}

Goodbye, it's been fun, TML has added greatly to my playing and 
designing of Traveller, and has provided a wonderful mix of gentle 
humour, bright ideas and ludicrously over-sized armaments.  Keep the 
flame...

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:46:24 -0500
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

Douglas Berry writes:

>"Full Metal Jacket" featured US Marines moving and operating in a way that
>mirrored my own training and experience.  

Yes, but I'm fairly sure Kubrick was attempting for a different style film
than that of Verhoeven's ST.  The shots in his film didnt require a lot of
bunched up troops getting slaughtered by bugs.  I cant speak to the other
films.  I have never seen Cross of Iron and it has been years since I saw A
Bridge Too Far ( sounds like a night of movie rentals ).

>Imagine if we found there was going to be a Traveller movie.  Being the
>good TMLers we are, IG flies us to the test showing, where we see hand
>held blasters, a sword fight between Strephon and the Black Duke Dulinor
>(played by Alan Rickman), small fighters using non-Newtonian movement,
>etc..

I'd not be upset in the least.  This sounds more like my Traveller game
than anything I've read on this list in years.  I'd be cheering wildly.  

Roderick Elliot writes:

>Look; you're computer-literate, right?  How would you react to a
>film where somebody downloads a 5.6 terabyte database over the net at
>prime time via a 9600 baud modem in 5 minutes, and then stores the whole
>darn thing on a floppy without so much as zipping it?

Wouldnt faze me a bit.  Ok...it would faze me a bit, but not as much as you
seem to think.  Whats the story like?  The computer usage is only a vehicle
to push the storyline.  I might snicker a bit, but I wouldn't rate the
entire film on just that.   Besides, I've seen " The Net " and it wasnt
that bad a movie. :)

>I don't care how nice the fonts are and how well laid out the term
>paper is, if you tell me that Marie Curie studied at the Sore Buns
>Institute and that George Washington was elected because he was good >with
a chainsaw, you deserve a big fat "F", and to hell with your self-esteem
>:).

And I'd expect one.  However, this is a term paper based on my knowledge,
not a film based on visuals.  I also doubt my term paper would be
attempting to make money to cover the CGI budget for its production.

>Tie fighters look like WWII fighters?  Not to me :).  And all this
>stuff designed to make some yutz whose education was seriously croggled
>by a fundamentalist-run school board relate to the film has the problem of
>turning many of us who know how ships passing in vacuum are supposed to
>sound right off.

Well, I should have said move like WWII fighters.   But as I said in my
original post, the ships arent there to simulate reality.  The ships are
there to move the story along.  They are there to look cool.  Thats it. 
Anything else makes the film slow and clunky, which is what Lucas wished to
avoid.  I often recall the interview in which Lucas said " Well of course
ship in space dont make noise, < gets excited > but it looked really cool
didnt it?? ".  Thats exactly my point.  

>OBTRAV: Tieing all this back in to Traveller, one fo the reasons I like
the
>game so much is because it makes the extra effort to be as scientifically
>and astronomically credible as one can reasonably expect in an RPG.  The
>handwaving and bullshittium, although present, is kept to a bare minimum
>and there are constant attempts at refining it.  If there wasn't this
>attempt at making it consistent and believable, it wouldn't be a quarter
of
>the game it is.  Because of it, Trav makes sense

And this is where we differ in running a game as well.  I'm much more
interested in making my game fun for my players than to make it "
scientifically accurate ".  If we have a good time, drink a beer or two,
kill a can of peanuts, but break several laws of physics in the process, I
see no harm done.

Besides, this is role-playing not " lets create the ultimate vehicle " isnt
it?   I think playing the characters and enjoying the characters is
paramount.  The vehicle they arrive in is secondary both to the plot and
the enjoyment of the game.  This is where you as a " tech-head " and me as
a " non-tech-head " will always butt heads.  But to me, thats the beauty of
Traveller.  We can all play in the same universe and nobody gets hurt.


John

PS:  and BTW, I like testerone pumped up girls.  :)  I think they are hot
:)  LOL


It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2077
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 10 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2078



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy and lurking and fleet deployment
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Raiders vs. pirates
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Hi Nick,
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2076
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: WOW
Re: Review: Starship Troopers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:16:38 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy and lurking and fleet deployment

David P. Summers writes:

>Well, it has already been questioned, and argued about, if those patrols
>are a) all suited to antipiracy work and

Can we agree about terminology? I think I may previously have used the word
"picket" improperly. If a picket is someone who is supposed to slow down
advancing attackers in addition to giving early warning, then I've used it
properly. If a picket is only supposed to spot attackers and fall back before
engaging them, then I've used the word "scout" when I meant "picket".

In any case, I do not think that ships of an early warning system will be
in a position to do anything about pirates whether they are armed or not
(though I do think they will be armed, since that would increase their
general usefulness).

>b) numerous enough to even come close to stopping piracy

(Shut up, Hans, shut up, Hans, shut up, Hans... Gee, this not responding
to mere differences in opinion is harder than I thought it would be...))

>c) don't also already have tasks the antipiracy patrols
>would take them away from.

Look, let's set aside the question of just how many destroyers and escorts
the Imperial Navy has. Just list a few of the peacetime tasks they would
have that are more important than piracy suppression, assuming for purposes
of argument that piracy is as frequent as the various Traveller adventures
and rules imply.

Just the destroyers and escorts. Not the couriers and scouts and cruisers
and battleships.

>Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
> 
>>This presupposes that both reconaissance in force and anti-logistics
>>(both classic cruiser roles) will be non-existent until such time as
>>the main fleets from a couple subsectors back arrive?
> 
>It presumes that you don't do reconaissance in force because the point of
>that is to make sure your patrols can safely report back.  The ability to
>sit where you can jump at any moment can obviate that need.

Agreed. Assuming you are able to arrive with enough fuel in your tanks to
jump back out again, a ship can aim for a spot in the target system far
from the scene of the action and still close enough to get good sensor
readings of what goes on in the system. The odds against arriving close
to an enemy vessel can be reduced to almost nothing.

>Assuming by anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding (anti-anti-
>logistics?) since anti-logistics will be forays of ships grouped into
>small fleets into enemy territory and is not really much for stopping
>piracy.

The ships that are useful for catching enemy merchants in wartime are
quite up to warding off pirates in peacetime. So unless they have
better things to do that is a most plausible thing for them to do.
Of course, ships used to protect merchants in wartime are naturally
enough even more useful for protecting merchants in peacetime, so both
raiders and escorts will be available. Unless, that is, they have
even better things to do. Can you think of any?

>The best way to deal with this is to set up convoys which, by definition,
>means you don't have enough ships to patrol every system to protect every
>ship.

This would be true if the stardrive of the Traveller universe wasn't a
jump drive. But it is. Consequently, it will often be much more efficient
to establish a "convoy" force in each intermediate system and send off
the merchants without escorts. They only need escorts while in real
space, so why wast your escort forces by putting them in jump space
75% or more of the time?

Of course, there will be situations where an escort force is a better
choice, and you won't need to garrison every system all the time, so
there MAY not be enough ships to patrol every system in peacetime,
but it certainly isn't "by definition". For example, the IN may deem
it necessary to guard against enemy raider squadrons in wartime, which
necessitate using larger squadrons for protection than those needed to
guard against pirates.

And in any case the ships used for escort duty is not the sum total of
small IN ships. There are also whatever ships that make up ther raider
squadrons.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:39:25 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

Thanks for the the reply, here are some more thoughts7responses on the matter:

>> The distance the target needs to accelerate to be effective is
>> about a ships radius which if assuming the ship is a cube is
>> approximately:
>> (3) r = v^(1/3)/2
>> v = ships volume in m^3
>
>I think this needs to be a ship's diameter, not a ship's radius,
>because a shot aimed at the target's bows is still going to hit if
>the ship moves by r.  In other words, FC will always lead a little to
>compensate for the effects of acceleration.  Thus
>
>r = v^1/3 where r is the distance the ship must move to evade.

You are not amining for the bow as you do not know in what direction the
acceleration will be (assuming the ship can change its sttitude
significantly in a timelag period. This might not be the case for large
ships but is an assumtion in my calcs). Even if you aimed for the bow and
knew where it was you would increase your propability of miss as any
acceleration less than the anticipated would make you miss directly (draw
it out on paper to see).

>Can't this be reduced for passive sensor observations, which are
>effectively continous?  Or indeed, for a series of active pulses;
>once you've made three, all you're doing is updating your previous
>picture with every pulse, so surely the interval should be 2R/c.
>(I'm assuming that active sensors work best with only one pulse "in
>the air" at once.)

You're absolutely tright here as Bruce Macintosh and others (Dave Golden?)
pointed put the last time I posted. The 2R/c should be used for actives as
well as passives.

>Doesn't this imply that the target ship is moving perpendicular to
>the firing ship?  (ships accelerate along a principal axis, usually).
>If not, the perceived movement will be less -- say by a factor of 2
>if the target is approaching at 30 degrees from dead-on, rather than
>crossing the path of the firing ship.  Say 10 hexes.

The above calcs assumed the worst scenario for the shooter ie perpendicular
acceleration in relation to the shooter and instantaneous attitude change
ie the acceleration vectors direction and length can change at a whim of
the pilot.
(You might note a trend here; whenever I'm in doubt I'll always guess to
reduce hit propability as I find these numbers way to high as they are).

>Note that if you fire two lasers together (with a MFD, in TNE/T4
>terms) you *double* your chances of hitting the target.  Thus, three
>lasers fired as a battery will automatically hit an AHL at 9 light
>seconds (90 hexes), VERY long range.

Propabilities doesn't work that way! Quick now what is the propability of
rolling at least 1 six if you roll 6D6? Surely not 100%. - You do not
double your hitchance, you halve your risk at missing.

Thanks for your interest. Note that the ranges we get here is about the
same as those Bruce Macintosh got for real world passive sensors on
blackbody-IR-baffled targets which is cool by me; I want sensor ranges to
by about the same as hit propabilities for medium size ships as this makes
space combat resemble submarine warfare more than surface ship fights.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:43:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs. pirates

David P. Summers writes:
>>It does not
>>follow that a free trader can take any sort of warship
> 
>I am not talking about a free trader.

No, AFAIK we've been talking about armed 400 and 600 T merchants. I have,
anyway.
  
>>, or that if a
>>600 Dt ship should somehow be acquired for regular pirate operations
>>without attracting notice that it would be easily capable of taking
>>on a 400 Dt warship.
> 
>I don't agree it would stand out as much.

An armed merchant won't stand out. And I'll gladly postulate that you can
camouflage a hig-performance computer to look like a ordinary one.

>Much bigger ships are still regarding as ships only suitable for frontier
>operations off the main trade routes.  Clearly merchant vessels get even
>bigger.  Even if we assume that independants are smaller than corporate
>merchants, there is ample room for ships considerably bigger than 200-400
>tons.

Yes, but bigger ships will require bigger revenues to keep in the black.
And even bigger ships will not have a better computer than the minimum
needed to perform its rated jump.
  
>>  The idea of any reasonably sized trader-pirate taking on a 1000-odd
>>ton warship of similar or higher techs is ludicrous under High Guard.
> 
>Well, I do think that 1000-1500 tons is in the right range.

If deployed singly, yes. If deployed in squadrons, 400 T ships would IMO
be quite adequate.

> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
> 
>You miss the point.  Since the patrol ships can safely
>jump away, there is little risk.  Therefore there is
>not need for them to even be armed.

By patrol ships you are talking about scout forces, right? I still think
they would be armed, but the point is moot, since, as you say, they would
be deployed far out in deep space.
 
>But you don't prepare to attack enemy shipping right at the
>start of a war by spreading your ships evenly over every world
>with trade in every system in the Imperium (like you need to
>do for antipiracy action).  It's done by grouping into raiding
>fleets that need to be ready the instant war breaks out.

OK, that addresses something I've just asked you in another post. You
believe that designated raider squadrons would be kept together instead
of split up and spread out. Well, that is actually not too unreasonable.
That makes it a matter of weighing priorities. "Is it more important
to keep my ships ready for instant response than to deal with pirates
this year?" I have a different take on the priorities a fleet admiral
would have when faced with an outbreak of piracy, but that IS a genuine
difference of opinion. What I don't understand is why you think the
squadron can't be kept in backwater systems. Even if they are split between
different worlds they can still jump to a common rendevouz. Delay will be
only the hours imposed by the lightspeed limit to get the order out. And
in any case, you require a full squadron to guard each world anyway.


Damn! Out of time and I haven't even finished the messages since friday,
much less dug into my backlog. Sigh!

I really do need to stop responding to David ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:34:04 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In a message dated 97-11-10 00:31:14 EST, rde@ican.net writes:

<< 	Still, I can't believe that Verhoeven believed that even the
 average American moviegoer would buy people outrunning nuclear fireballs...
>>

I can't understand why everyone has a problem w/ this...didn't Ahnie do the
same thing at the end of Predator???  I don't recall ever seeing anyone
crying over that...or was it cuz there wasn't a book that was trashed by the
movie?

It was just a movie...and IMHO, ST was trashed (from book to movie) FAR less
than any of the Tom Clancy stories (Hunt for Red October, Patriot Games,
Clear &Present Danger)  These were tragedies of filmmaking, if you ask me

Ed Jenkins

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:50:23 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

In a message dated 97-11-10 06:57:27 EST, summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< I have heard this claim before, and don't understand it. How can a spin
 >around two axes be converted to a single axis?
 >>

I'm kind of confused...isn't a "Deadmans tumble" a spin around 3 axis (roll,
pitch, and yaw?)  I also understood that the reason it's called Deadmans
tumble is that is was impossible for a ship to dock w/ a vessel tumbling in
all 3 planes...therefore anyone trapped on a tumbling ship was "a Dead man"

Am I missing something?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:54:13 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Hi Nick,

I hope the copies arrived all right?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

Dom Mooney wrote:

>I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
>(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
>rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
>or should that be 'flaming list'.
>
>Any objections?

Better than flame wars about the TL of the RoM, I guess. <g>

I guess the reason there's so much chatter among Trav fans is that it's the
first major sci-fi of note since Star Wars was re-released last spring. I
don't think Event Horizon made enough of a splash to warrant consideration.

I didn't have time to read everyone's comments, but it seems that people
either loved or hated it without much leeway in between.

Chalk me up with those who loved it.

I thought Starship Troopers was a thoroughly entertaining movie. Say what
you want about Verhoeven, but I like the way he's not afraid to poke fun at
his own movies. The 'censored' overlays on several of the newsclips were
hilarious. the teen romance angle was tongue-in-cheek and also enjoyable.

As in RoboCop and Total Recall, the movie was filled with the superlative.
From the wildly impossible football game (I thought it was great that Dizzy
was the quarterback) to Rico riding the giant bug alien, there was a comic
bookish feeling that was fun. It wasn't like a Bruce Willis or Sylvester
Stallone movie where they're trying to pass the stunts off as possible.
Starship Troopers *knows* it's impossible and doesn't try to pretend that
it is. In short, it's wildly fun escapist entertainment.

I think those of you who are hanging onto the word of Robert Heinlein with
every ounce of anal retention you can muster are missing the point. There
were a *lot* of similarities to Heinlein's novel, including at least half a
dozen instances in which dialogue was taken from the book verbatim. I think
the film was a fine tribute to the book.

The special effects were fantastic. The bugs made Jurassic Park's creatures
look like my son's plastic dinosaurs. The starship sequences were also
great. They gave you a great sense of Travelleresque space combat.

For those of you who haven't seen it, loosen up your cynicism and fork over
the $7.50 to have a good time. Starship Troopers was a blast.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:22:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, John Watts wrote:

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> >Tie fighters look like WWII fighters?  Not to me :).  And all this
> >stuff designed to make some yutz whose education was seriously croggled
> >by a fundamentalist-run school board relate to the film has the problem of
> >turning many of us who know how ships passing in vacuum are supposed to
> >sound right off.
> 
> Well, I should have said move like WWII fighters.  

Well, that's because they DO move like WWII fighters, Zeroes and Hellcats,
to be exact. Lucas used footage from the movies "Midway" and "Tora, Tora,
Tora", and real WWII footage to program the model and camera transport for
the Death Star scenes in Star Wars.

I also think this illustrates the point, though. Star Wars didn't strike
me as a Bad SF movie despite its technical flaws, because it was so damn
good...me I think I stopped breathing when the Imperial destroyer came on
to the scene, chasing the rebel ship, and didn't start again until the
credits started rolling. Judging from the loud 'Whoosh' in the audience,
neither did anyone else...

All the eye candy in the world can't help it if the story is bad, if the
story's good, all the bad science can't kill it.

OTOH, since he did use real war footage to base his scenes on, the
dogfights in Star Wars were very realistic seeming, even if that wasn't
the way real fighters would work in space.

To be fair, if I didn't know Starship Troopers (the novel) damn near by
heart, I probably wouldn't be as harsh on the movie.

It's just that Verhoven seems to have zero facility for putting real
people in his films, every one of 'em is a live action cartoon.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:24:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
<snip>
>cutting a ship in two wouldn't vapourize the bug forming it.  And their ROF
>is pretty darn good; what the hell are those bugs eating that allows them
>to generate the amount of power needed?
Really, really hot chili? With jalapenos?

<snip>
>	And then there was the fact that Planet P and Klendathu looked
>identical... and a helluva a lot like Arizona.
Utah I thought.

<snip>
>	Yeah.  And then there's that.  Shiny happy fascism.  I'm kinda
>offended that they released it so close to Remembrance Day.
That's Veteran's Day for us uninformed Americans.  Not that it matters
to many Americans.  

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:16:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Jory M. Earl wrote:
<snip>
>I cannot address this film from a military point of view, having never
>been in any armed forces, but even my un-trained eye was spotting things
>and wondering "Why the hell did they do that?".
Having been in the military I CAN say that they could have done with a
military advisor. 

>One example was sending the radio operator up in the hillside ALONE,
>when they could already see activity in the rocks.  What were they
>thinking?!  Lets see...."Hmm, that radio operator really irks me, lets
>get rid of him..."  :)  
You basically have to stop nit-picking from the very beginning,
otherwise you end up in overload.  Yeah, there were a lot of silly
oversights (Carmen picking herself up the with arm that just got
stabbed by the bug pincer, Carmen hold the big gun and firing it with
the arm that got ... etc., Why wasn't Johnny more upset when they
crashed an asteroid into his home? He didn't even look too broken up
when Diz died, yeah a couple of tears but she loved you man! okay,
enough ...)

>As has been said here already, the troop formations were too bunched
>up, and I agree.  If the Arachnid flyers had dropped bombs, it would
>have been all over.
The movie magazine (no, I didn't buy it but a friend did) had some
interesting tidbits.  After they wrote the movie according to the book
they decided it had too much narrative and not enough interaction and
'plot'.  And they (the producers) didn't have the Hollywood clout so
they decided they had to get a big name director.  Supposedly Verhoven 
is a big fan of the book (yeah right!).  One of the influences of the
modifications was the assumption that peoples expectations of a war
flick are formed by old WWII movies.  And of course they always 
bunched up in those films too.  (You can't fit all the main characters
on the screen if they spread out they way they should - sheesh, didn't
you read the script!)

>This also amazed me; the drop craft are slow, ungainly and unstreamlined
>and should have been picked off with contemptuous ease.
No answer for this one! [The F-4 Phantom, America's proof to the world
that a brick will fly with a big enough engine!]

>Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
>the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
>was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
>so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
>and losing one was painful.
The only critical comment I can muster is that some of the acting
wasn't too good.  But I also enjoyed it.

>Just my 5 cents worth Rod, no hard feelings and don't take this
>personally.
Ditto, just MHO.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:11:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Douglas Sinclair <eem2ds@ee.surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2076

> [deletions]
> >Consider two axes perpendicular to each other; an object in this
> >arrangement could spin with its pole pointing anywhere along a great
> >circle. How can one possibly do this with a single axis? What about
> >precession; a precessing object has two angles of rotation and I see no way
> >it could be reduced to one.
> 
> A precession can't occur in free fall without a force acting
> on the object.  (It occurs only when there is a torque acting
> on the axis of rotation).  All spining objects spin
> about one axis.

I'm afraid you are making a common mistake, which is to confuse precession
with nutation.  In free fall with no torque there will be no precession,
which means the angular momentum vector of the object will not change.
However, if the angular momentum vector does not lie along one of the
three inertial axes, there will not be a pure, one-axis spin.  Instead
there will be a motion called nutation, which looks like a wobbling spin.
Many spin-stabilized spacecraft carry nutation dampers to try to achive
a pure minor-axis spin.  Any textbook on dynamics should explain this
phenomenon.  If you want to get into the details, check out
_Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics_ by P.C.Hughes.  It's out of print, but
a university library should have it.

Doug Sinclair
Spacecraft Engineer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:38:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> Not having read the novel, i don't know if the boot camp thing was
>in the book or was set that from the screen play, but it was quite
>laughable to me.
Yup, the boot camp was in the book. If I remember correctly (and I'm
sure I'll be corrected if I don't), boot camp was relatively fatal.
Something like 3 out of 100 would survive (not graduate, survive).  My
numbers might be off somewhat.

>Armys Basic Training and AIT for its tankers at FT Knox and that
>seemed quite laughable, too, considering what i went through, but
>this isn't the place for that... : ), with all due respect to any
>Soldiers on this list.  
Now, now, be nice.  Not only is Army basic pretty woosy, the officer
training is even woosier (okay, so woosy isn't a word!).  [Yes, I can
comment on it, I went through it!] The last word I had was that the
basic trainees only have to get a 150 (of 300) on their PT test (while
180 is passing in line units!).

>    Before I ever got onto a rifle range (even the field firing) we were
>quite clear on the safety rules.  The problem wouldn't have been so much in
>removing ones helmet, but on keeping the weapons down range.  A kevlar helmet
>wouldn't stop a str8 direct shot,  anyways.  But i'm sidetracking. : )
I remember my first live fire tactical move.  The pucker factor was
high enough there was no way we'd let a round go unless we KNEW where
it was going!  Of course we didn't get paralyzed by lasers when we
were hit, either.

>     I left Event Horizon w/ a much worse taste in my mouth.  
Ahmen.

>being a radio operator was kind of amusing.  Did anyone catch on just what
>sized unit Rico was in?  What was it called?  I can't seem to remember, but
According to the book it was supposed to be a line company.  Probably
somewhat light compaired to what you or I are accustom to. 

>what was the size?  They had a lieutenant in charge, so i'm assuming it's
>platoon equivalent.  A company would rate a Captain, but they're structure
Some Armies have LTs in command of companies.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:10:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
<snip>
>assume you went to Knox for your tread-head training?  Try the Airborne
>School at Ft. Benning.  There are only 18,500 soldiers on Airborne status
>in the entire Army.  That school is strict!
Bunk!  I had several Marines in my class when I attended the airborne
course and they flew through without breaking a sweat! As for the
other matters concerning the Corps, I know only what I've read.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:26:05 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: WOW

>> >Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First=
 Survey)?
>> >
>> >3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>> >
>> Hm.   This gives us a routine quality starport, a planet 3200 km in
>> diameter, a very thin, tainted atmosphere, with 60% hydrosphere (probably
>> ice cover given it's around a type M star), 800 billion people (yeek),
>> government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4 manual; it's
>
>Isn't it some kind of Religious Dictatorship?

Nope. Religious dictatorship is D ... it's one more step up the ladder.

I imagine a huge, depressed population having to pay for one-use breath
filters. They have to live in one huge, gigantic city, and most of them
would never only see a pale red, reflected sunlight through the smog.

Yep, this really is THE place for cyberpunk fanatics :-)

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:11:40 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

Two posts in one:
At 01:16 AM 11/8/97 -0500, Dusty wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-07 14:33:06 EST, dberry@hooked.net writes:
><< Just wait'll you get a load of "Psychic Gestapo Officer Doogie Hauser"...
>>>

>I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that thought that scene screamed
>"Gestapo!!!" ...

Between that and the flog-o-matic, the weirdos I know were very happy with
the movie. :)

>But I personally thought the movie stayed closer to Heinlien than any of us
>had any right to expect (after all, it came from Hollywood!).  It wasn't the
>book, by any means...but it was most enjoyable!!!

As for us me, I think they treated Heinlein about as well as a major motion
picture would.  I was expecting none of the philosophy to make it at all,
and instead, a small amount did.  Verhoeven is not subtle, and could have
used about twenty minutes of gore dropped out and replaced with a bit more
character development, but all things considered, that we got the moral
philosophy class at all was kind of surprising, and pleasing.

At 04:31 PM 11/9/97 -0500, Glenn Grant wrote:
>Jory wrote:
>>>Aside from obvious oversights, poor tactics and suicidal stupidity on
>>>the part of the MI's command, this movie IS a good flick.  I personally
>>>was moved by the action and caught up with the characters emotionally,
>>>so when they lost Diz, I was stunned.  I actually liked these characters
>>>and losing one was painful.
>
>Didn't surprise me one bit.
>
>Diz must die by the end of the film because she is a sexually aggressive
>female. The other female lead (the pilot) survives because she is a
>properly sexually reticent female. That's Hollywood Morality 101.

On the other hand, the Lt. was a Back stabbing Two Timing Bitch (tm) who
left Our Hero when he was in need of Emotional Support, and thus would be
expected to die for not Putting Out for Our Hero.

Frankly, I expected Diz to die, Johnny and Whazername to be reconciled, and
then her to die.  But then, by that point in the movie, I was expecting
everyone to die, usually by having their legs removed.  Heads seemed okay
by him too.

Imagine the difference in the movie if Verhoeven had been limited to only
three gallons of movie blood and one decapitation or drawing and
quartering.  Like I said before, I thought it was better than I expected,
and worth the matinee price, but could have really used some better editing
and fixup.

The science flaws were legion, unfortunately, as were the military policy
problems, but Doogie Stormtrooper was a good visual, and the CG was well
executed.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2078
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 10 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2079



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ST Obtrav
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Piracy
Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.
Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: ST Obtrav
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Re: Petition to rename the TML
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Cargo Handler, TL12

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:31:21 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: ST Obtrav

Roderick wrote:

[snip]
>        Agreed.  The Impies would simply crsh the Bugs like so many roaches
>under a steamroller.  The Zhos would have a lovely time scrambling their
>psionic communication and turning them on one another (or the Impies).  The

Actually, no; they're both far too busy fighting piracy to spare any time
for entomology.

>Vilani would likely go rooting around in the AAB, find some sort of really
>good insecticide dating back to the Ziru Sirka, slightly modify a very
>reliable crop duster design, and using standard procedures for dealing with
>planetary infestations of ludicrous large and violent insects deal with the
>problem as a team effort.

No, that's highly unlikely; the Vilani immune system wouldn't be able to
handle the shock and they'd die off in droves.

>        I agree.  Even the Vargr could take'em.  Watching the K'Kree go up
>aginst them would be interesting (Bugs are a little too big to traple
>underhoof very easily).  The Aslan would likely watch ST for giggles
>between rounds of shredding Bugs and then go around sneering at every human
>they met.  I dread to think about what the Sayat would do, but it would
>likely be very Freudian. Famille Spofulam?  Walkers.  Big ones.  Fast
>ones.  With lots of legs.  With really, really big, wide feet on 'em and
>two-foot electrified superdense spikes on the soles.  And 4-meter diameter
>magnifying lenses on remote manipulator arms.

I don't know if CSC can handle this, but you really, really owe it to us to
find out.

> The Hivers might have a hard
>time as Bugs seem pretty hard to manipulate.

They've already _been_ manipulated, dude.  These are Ithklur 2.0.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:31:28 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

Doug Berry wrote:

>At 05:12 PM 11/9/97 +0800, you wrote:
>>Look, I thought the book was really dumb and tedious.  (Talk about
>>flamebait.)
>
>SQUIK!  Expect near-c rocks infested with plasma excreting bugs to arrive
>any moment now..

Fair 'nough.

>>  How many science fiction films of the
>>last twenty years can you name that don't include at least one explosion,
>>one brawl, and one more or less reuniformed archetypal Nazi?
>
>Contact.

Yeah, you got me there -- but it had Jodie Foster in it, who I find even
more tedious, predictable, and insulting than sci-fi action/adventure
formulas.

>The Lathe of Heaven.

This was made into a movie?  Really?  Wow!  Must try to see it sometime.

And John Watts wrote:

>>Imagine if we found there was going to be a Traveller movie.  Being the
>>good TMLers we are, IG flies us to the test showing, where we see hand
>>held blasters, a sword fight between Strephon and the Black Duke Dulinor
>>(played by Alan Rickman), small fighters using non-Newtonian movement,
>>etc..
>
>I'd not be upset in the least.  This sounds more like my Traveller game
>than anything I've read on this list in years.  I'd be cheering wildly.

I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.

>Traveller.  We can all play in the same universe and nobody gets hurt.

Uh-oh.  Sounds like something Grandfather probably tried saying once.

>John
>
>PS:  and BTW, I like testerone pumped up girls.  :)  I think they are hot
>:)  LOL

Yeah, the creaky voices, acne, male-pattern baldness, and sprouting body
hair are a real turn-on, ain't they? <G>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:55:24 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

>All the eye candy in the world can't help it if the story is bad, if the
>story's good, all the bad science can't kill it.


The last part of your truism... I've found a contradiction: Total recall
Good story (by late P K Dick) and bad FX, bad set design, bad lighting
(especially the mars underground bars), bad acting etc actually made the
movie a pile of junk and cartoonish cheapness.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:55:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:14:58 -0600 (CST), Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> >With Derek's suggestion in mind, doesn't that depend on the gender you'd
> >prefer to, er, liase with?  :-)
> 
> Well, a bit seriously, most of the Aslan are going to want to
> "liase" with a member of the opposite gender.  (I don't know
> how you would fit an attraction of the majority of the race
> to the same gender into the evolution of the species).

Maybe I should clarify a bit here ... I wasn't proposing that Aslan females
would be attracted only to other females.  Rather, I was suggesting that the
majority of Aslan females would find a member of either gender attractive
as a sexual partner under the right conditions.  IMHO, Aslan society frowns
on pre-marital relations between a male and a female (for reasons I explained
earlier), and this would encourage unmarried females would tend to have their
'liasons' with other unmarried females.

Clearly, some Aslan females (over a third of them) eventually marry and have
children.  Some Aslan females (I'd estimate at less than a third of them)
never marry.  The rest fall somewhere in between - that's a wide spectrum;
given the relative overabundance of females to males, Aslan females can
have a wider range of preference without causing the race to die out.


I'd like to make a couple more comments about Aslan, particularly in light
of some of the recent postings (particularly those that comment on the Aslan
being a matriarchy, or suggesting that Aslan females 'engineer' the relative
scarcity of males).

In my games, I assume that the Aslan gender disparity (3:1 in favor of the
females) is genetically determined, and there's not much modern Aslan can do
about it except structure their society to live with it.  I'd also assume
that the evolutionary reason for this has to do with the development of the
modern Aslan from their forest-dwelling, individually-hunting forebearers.
Something about having 'extra' females around (perhaps that females find it
easier to co-operate with one another) made a group more successful.

I'd also assume that the Aslan equivalent of DNA has something about it that
makes this ratio easy to establish (or at least easier than it is with most
Terran genetics).  Either a large percentage of males are miscarry, or (more
likely), there's a quirk that allows about 3 times as many female
conceptions as male ones.  I'd also expect to see other creatures native to
the Aslan homeworld that have this quirk, or something similar, too.


I don't see the Aslan as a society that's a matriarchy or a patriarchy
(IMHO, I see the two 'labels' for Aslan society as being an example of
human-centric thinking).  An Aslan (male or female) would probably consider
the entire concept of a 'battle of the sexes' just a little silly.   Instead,
the Aslan are a race were the labor division between males and females is
more sharply drawn and more related to the biology, and both sexes have to
cooperate in order for either to reach their potential.

In the case of the Aslan, my Traveller games assume that there _are_
effective differences in aptitude and capability between the sexes, and that
these differences are (mostly) mirrored in the gender roles assigned by
Aslan society.  In other words, most Aslan males find it difficult to grasp
abstract numerical concepts (as long as there is meat on the table), and most 
females find it hard to get overly concerned about who is a vassal to whom by
which oath (as she's getting a regular paycheck).


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:25:52 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Piracy

G'day:

I've enjoyed the discussions on piracy.  It has been fun to see
differing perspectives and has been quite thought provoking.  Let me
preface this by saying its been about 15 years since I played the game,
and I'm just getting back into it.

The discussion of stealing ships and likening it to cars today made me
wonder about stripping ships as cars are often stripped.  Perhaps it
wouldn't be feasible to do some cutting in space (before the authorities
arrive), but why would pirates not take the cargo (whatever was
valuable), take what they could from the mechanical parts of the ship
(spares could always come in handy), any ransomable victims (space the
rest) and leave the hull to the authorities?

Another point (and maybe I should put in another post as I am not
familiar with the list yet) about the practice of coming to zero
velocity before jumping (and thus being at zero velocity when you
arrive).  It seems to me that with all the former scout and IN pilots
out there in the "retired ranks" that many free traders would not slow
to zero, but would jump at velocity (assuming that the IN does that). 
This would put you at speed when arriving in system (with an increase in
danger) but would be a defence against know pirate actions in a system.  
Thoughts?

And thank you for welcoming me to the list...

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:51:18 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review.  No Spoilers.

>Not at all.  I find Hollywood butch laughable.  Babes with a 'tude being
>passed off as... well, as anything but babes with 'tudes -- oh, and with
>personal trainers -- don't get my disbelief off the ground, much less
>suspended, even less suspended breathlessly.

Oh, so you were talking about testosterone pumped women _literally_.  My
apologies.  I did read it slightly wrong.  However, was it said in the movie
that they were pumped with testosterone?  (I mainly ask because Diz was
_already_ a seriously aggresive tomboy type to begin with).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:44:30 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers (SPOILERS)

>In which case the standard tactic would have been to DISPERSE the big
>ships, since a bunched-up fleet makes it easier for "random & light"
>anti-shipping fire to hit something. 
>
>Especially when it wasn't light. The plasma bursts also appeared to
>grow in size, since a single hit was enough to completely sever one of
>the transports completely in half.

Hey, I'm not going to defend the deployment and tactics of the film.  That
was what sucked about the movie in a big way, and I'd be a fool to deny it!
:)

However, all I was doing was correcting an error in a largely hilarious and
correct post. :)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:15:54 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

At 12:38 PM 11/10/97 -0600, Jim wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>> Not having read the novel, i don't know if the boot camp thing was
>>in the book or was set that from the screen play, but it was quite
>>laughable to me.

>Yup, the boot camp was in the book. If I remember correctly (and I'm
>sure I'll be corrected if I don't), boot camp was relatively fatal.
>Something like 3 out of 100 would survive (not graduate, survive).  My
>numbers might be off somewhat.

By quite a bit.  As I recall, they had two casulities during training in
the Canadian Rockies, plus one execution (name striped from Company rolls).

>>Armys Basic Training and AIT for its tankers at FT Knox and that
>>seemed quite laughable, too, considering what i went through, but
>>this isn't the place for that... : ), with all due respect to any
>>Soldiers on this list.  

>Now, now, be nice.  Not only is Army basic pretty woosy, the officer
>training is even woosier (okay, so woosy isn't a word!).  [Yes, I can
>comment on it, I went through it!] The last word I had was that the
>basic trainees only have to get a 150 (of 300) on their PT test (while
>180 is passing in line units!).

What MOS is this for?  I can see a finance comptroller clerk getting away
with a 150PT, but anybody facing more danger than monitor EM and paper cuts
has got to be in better shape than that!

>>    Before I ever got onto a rifle range (even the field firing) we were
>>quite clear on the safety rules.  The problem wouldn't have been so much in
>>removing ones helmet, but on keeping the weapons down range.  A kevlar
>>helmet wouldn't stop a str8 direct shot,  anyways.  But i'm sidetracking. 

>I remember my first live fire tactical move.  The pucker factor was
>high enough there was no way we'd let a round go unless we KNEW where
>it was going!  Of course we didn't get paralyzed by lasers when we
>were hit, either.

My first FTX was the last one at Ft. benning to use wax bullets.  Ouch.

>
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:15 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: ST Obtrav

> They've already _been_ manipulated, dude.  These are Ithklur 2.0.

Hey, so does that mean I'll have to take down all my bug strips when Santa
comes around this Christmas?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:26:46 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

At 01:10 PM 11/10/97 -0600, Jim Heiviln wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
><snip>
>>assume you went to Knox for your tread-head training?  Try the Airborne
>>School at Ft. Benning.  There are only 18,500 soldiers on Airborne status
>>in the entire Army.  That school is strict!

>Bunk!  I had several Marines in my class when I attended the airborne
>course and they flew through without breaking a sweat! As for the
>other matters concerning the Corps, I know only what I've read.

I didn't say it was harder, or that Marines couldn't pass.  Just that
compared to the Armor School Basic Course, Airborne would be much harder
and more representative of what the Army can do when it has to.  BTW: I
have never met anyone who went through the Jump course without breaking a
sweat, if from nothing else cold fear on the 250' tower.

You want a *real* challenge, put your brain in storage and drive down to
Harmony Church and say you want to eat mud and snakes for the privilege of
wearing a black beret.


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:35:02 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

At 12:31 PM 11/10/97 +0800, Kenji wrote:

>Doug Berry wrote:

>>>  How many science fiction films of the
>>>last twenty years can you name that don't include at least one explosion,
>>>one brawl, and one more or less reuniformed archetypal Nazi?
>>
>>Contact.
>
>Yeah, you got me there -- but it had Jodie Foster in it, who I find even
>more tedious, predictable, and insulting than sci-fi action/adventure
>formulas.

So you're saying that it would have been a better film if Jodie had
exploded for no adequately explored reason at the end.. perhaps during the
credits?

>>The Lathe of Heaven.
>
>This was made into a movie?  Really?  Wow!  Must try to see it sometime.

Low-budget, but very well done.  I *think* it's out on video, go to your
local SF convention and bug dealers.  The film was my first exposure to the
story, which got me to read the book, which got me into Ursula K. LeGuin

<snip>

>I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
>into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.

Just picturing him raging on his flag bridge as more and more ships go
missing... OK, who plays Lucan the Mad?  Jim Carrey?

>>Traveller.  We can all play in the same universe and nobody gets hurt.
>
>Uh-oh.  Sounds like something Grandfather probably tried saying once.

We come in peace, shoot to kill.

>>PS:  and BTW, I like testerone pumped up girls.  :)  I think they are hot
>>:)  LOL
>
>Yeah, the creaky voices, acne, male-pattern baldness, and sprouting body
>hair are a real turn-on, ain't they? <G>

Whatever gets you through the night....
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:35:21 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

At 11:55 AM -0800 11/10/97, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>Clearly, some Aslan females (over a third of them) eventually marry and have
>children.  Some Aslan females (I'd estimate at less than a third of them)
>never marry.  The rest fall somewhere in between - that's a wide spectrum;
>given the relative overabundance of females to males, Aslan females can
>have a wider range of preference without causing the race to die out.

Well, the fact is that evolutionary pressures will lead you
away from having 1/3 to 2/3 of one gender (or 1/4 to 1/2 of
the race) attracted to the same gender.  Yes the race does
not necessarily have to die out, but raising and supporting
a significant fraction of the race who never contribute to
it continuation is the sort of burden that evolution weeds
out.  So I don't see Aslan females as being genetically
predisposed to homosexuality.

I'm not saying you couldn't come up with a way to make
this work (though I don't see the way at the moment) but
I also don't see it as following from what is established
by canon for the Aslan.

You could invoke it as a social convention.  But the
polygamy given in canon works just as well.  I happen
to prefer the polygamy approach, but if you wanted to
drop it I guess I don't see any big arguement against
the homosexuality approach.

>In my games, I assume that the Aslan gender disparity (3:1 in favor of the
>females) is genetically determined

If it wasn't, the background would need some explination of how
all those males die out.


>I'd also assume
>that the evolutionary reason for this has to do with the development of the
>modern Aslan from their forest-dwelling, individually-hunting forebearers.
>Something about having 'extra' females around (perhaps that females find it
>easier to co-operate with one another) made a group more successful.

I would say that the simpler explination is just that, with more
females, it is easer to increase numbers (say to bounce back
after a famine, etc.)
>
>I'd also assume that the Aslan equivalent of DNA has something about it that
>makes this ratio easy to establish (or at least easier than it is with most
>Terran genetics).  Either a large percentage of males are miscarry, or (more
>likely), there's a quirk that allows about 3 times as many female
>conceptions as male ones.

I always assumet there were 4 sex chromosomes and you needed
to come up all "male" to be a male.

>I don't see the Aslan as a society that's a matriarchy or a patriarchy
>(IMHO, I see the two 'labels' for Aslan society as being an example of
>human-centric thinking).  An Aslan (male or female) would probably consider
>the entire concept of a 'battle of the sexes' just a little silly.

Reasonable.

[More resonable stuff deleted....]

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:12:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>You want the near-c rocks?  Ho-kay!
>
>sf/x:  rummaging in closet, 1950's lab sounds
>
>There you go, Dom, look up right about..... NOW.

Sic transit gloria mundi.


Dom


(Who's probably going to get the **** taken for the bad Latin)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:07:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:27:48 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>David, please break down for once and admit that piracy suppression IS
>canonically one of the tasks of the Imperial Navy.

I never argued otherwise.  The Navy also has a military task and
that ships being paid for for defense aren't a "free lunch" for
stopping piracy.  Thus the Imperium will look at the cost for
the extra ships (which yes, will be an line item in the Navy
budget) and look at how bad that particular crime is, and
use the same sort of judgements that are applied to fighting
any other kind of crime.

[More stuff about how you could fight piracy without taking
away from military deployment.  That is all stuff we have
diagreed on before and my views have already been aired.]

>>The US military would not be happy to be forced to  use 1% of their
>>budget to guard banks.  Neither would they be happy if, during the
>>cold war, you took 1% of the money assigned to NATO duties and
>>reallocated them to coast guard duties.

>You do realize, don't you, that the practice of splitting up naval duties
>between a navy and a coast guard is something you do in the US?

Yes, and the cost of the Coast Guard vessels, and where they
are stationed, is justified on the local need justifying the
cost.  Places that don't have much shipping don't get vessels
because the Navy "doesn't have anything else to do with them".
oncerned your response does not entitle you to restate your original
>assertation as a bald fact.

[More stuff on who is being more honest etc.  I said I wouldn't
reply and I'll let Hans get the last word.  I stand by what I
said.]

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:33:25 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Dulinor and Strephon

> I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
> into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> 

Now you've done it. I just HAVE to come up with an adventure where
my group gets to meet Strephon. I can just see Strephon saying "You
have to ask me nicely" to a PC request.

Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:54:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> raising and supporting a significant fraction of the race who never
> contribute to it continuation is the sort of burden that evolution weeds
> out.

This is a common misconception, and has had people puzzling over it for a
while.  Two common Terran animals - bees and wolves - also have this
'problem' of non-reproducing individuals.  In bees, the vast majority of the
population consists of females, and the vast majority of these females do not
reproduce.  According to conventional wisdom (which you summarize above),
these 'non-contributing' worker bees are evolutionarily impossible.

In most wolf-packs, only a few of the members reproduce regularly (the
Alphas).  The other members of the pack get few opportunities to reproduce,
and in some cases never do.  How does evolution bring this about?

The answer to both questions is two-fold: first, the non-reproducing
members of the group are usually genetically related to the reproducing
members of the group (this is always the case in bees, and usually the
case for wolves), and the second is that the presence of these
non-reproducing members increases the survival rate of the offspring who
will reproduce.


Considering that one of the driving forces behind Aslan social evolution was
the need to be able to cooperatively hunt large game (this is canon), it
makes a certain amount of sense for the proto-Aslan to evolve in a direction
that enables larger hunting parties (one male plus several females, if we
accept the postulate that highly-territorial proto-Aslan males won't
cooperate with each other). 

If all of these females are pregnant or caring for small children at the same
time, they can't hunt as effectively.  So it would be helpful if some of
these females didn't reproduce as often as the others.  If the females who do
not reproduce are related to either the reproducing female(s) or the male*,
then there is an evolutionary advantage, even for the non-reproducing females
(just as in the case of Terran bees and wolves).

I'd then suggest that further changes in the female:male ratio, or the
number of females who bear children becomes a handicap, and the proto-Aslan
begin evolving in the direction of 'modern' Aslan and develop an involved
social structure that allows Aslan males to cooperate.

* Given what we know about current Aslan society from the canon, this is
  reflected in 'modern' Aslan.  An unmarried male typically has his 
  financial affairs managed by his female relatives.  Unmarried females
  remain a part of the households of married relatives.  Thus, the females
  who do not reproduce help support and nurture genetic relatives who
  do (or will), in family structures similar to that of the proto-Aslan
  I've proposed.


> So I don't see Aslan females as being genetically
> predisposed to homosexuality.

If you'll read carefully, I never postulated that they were.  I did suggest
that Aslan females would be favorably disposed towards bisexuality. 
There is a difference.

> I also don't see it as following from what is established
> by canon for the Aslan.

I'm speculating based on what's known about the Aslan.  I don't believe that
anything I've postulated violates the established canon; however there are
certainly many other interpretations which are at least as valid as mine.

> You could invoke it as a social convention. 
> But the polygamy given in canon works just as well.

Works just as well for what?  Remember, we initially started by speculating
about the sex lives of unmarried Aslan females (which the canon material
wisely refuses to speculate on). 

Polygamy doesn't impact that question at all, and nothing I've suggested
violates the concept of Aslan polygamy in the canon.  From canon material,
we know that some number of Aslan females never marry, and therefore the
average number of wives for an Aslan male is less than three; I suggest that
it lies somewhere between 1 and 2 (probably around 2 somewhere).

I also suggest that Aslan family groups will be tightly bonded ('monogamous'
was the word I used - incorrectly - in my initial post) no matter how many
wives are in the marriage.

> If it wasn't, the background would need some explination of how
> all those males die out.

Well, there _is_ the 'females commit infanticide to support the matriarchy'
point of view, but that's too much for me to take.

> I always assumet there were 4 sex chromosomes and you needed
> to come up all "male" to be a male.

I don't think this actually works (consider the sex chromosomes the kids
would inheret, and the relative frequencey of males and females amoung their
kids), but something similar might.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:25:34 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Cargo Handler, TL12

Cargo Loader (Walker) TL 12 (TL12)

    Designed by Peter Brenton

Summary:
       0.50 displacement ton open-topped open frame; 8.45 tonnes; kCr 137
Chassis:
       7.00 kL open-topped open frame (8.3 m long x 1.2 m wide x 1.2 m
high); Structure: 1.45 tonnes of superdense, rated for 3.0Gs, body
       0.50 cm thick, 8 armour rating
Performance:
       1.20 MW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant; Fuel: 1.50 L of enriched water
(1.50 kg), 4 hours supply
       Propulsion System: 300 kW legs; Maximum Speed: 19 km/h; Range: 76
km; Agility: +2DM
Crew:
       Crew roster: driver; 1 crew station
       Grav Compensation (2G), Whole vehicle compensated
Communications:
       Subregional Radio (1 W, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
       Active Subregional Optical (200 W, MultArray) Resolution: 0.020 mm
per km of range
Other:
       Safety Features: fire suppression system
       Construction Equipment: crane can lift 24.0 tonnes
       613 L of cargo space

This is the latest version of the ubiquitous cargo loader found on board
every  merchant expected to unload cargo in wilderness areas or  visiting
starports which have a waiting list for use of local unloaders or
equipment. Although the industrial lifting arms can technically lift 24
tonnes, this would unbalance the walking loader unless otherwise affected.
The gravitic compensators are mounted so as to reduce the weight of the
cargo (optimised for standard 4 displacement ton cargo containers) as it is
carried, making lifting capacity theoretically unlimited as long as the
cargo is within the area of the field.

 Capacity is effectively limited to about 20 tonnes due to considerations
of momentum and inertia.  In the event that the grav compensators are not
usable, straight lifting capacity is limited to less than 8 tonnes for
cargos not directly over the feet of the loader.  Note that it requires an
experienced operator to effectively use the gravitic operation of this
vehicle.  During operation the effective weight of the cargo is reduced,
not eliminated, so that the loader will behave in a fashion more consistent
with the inertia of the cargo carried (greater weight=3Dgreater surface
friction).

 The arms are mounted to allow them to slide into standard lifting points
on either side of the end of a cargo container, and are shaped to fit
between two containers even when stored at their closest.

=46ootprint is as small as possible while staying within the 3 meter height
of the smallest cargo bays.  When stored, the loader assumes a "crouching"
inactive position which lowers the height to 2.4 meters.  The vehicle as
delivered is painted with a Yellow and Black "Danger" pattern and is
equipped with a rotating warning light on top of the operators cab.
Options include a vacuum package, an array of attachable tools including an
arc welder, and remote operation electronics and sensors.

In a pinch, this vehicle has been known to be used as a last ditch
self-defense weapon.  There is no armor for the operator, however, and,
although the lifting arms are fully articulated, they are not optimised as
weapons.  This use in not recommended by the manufacturer.

Designed with CSC (software =A9Robert Prior, 1997)

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2079
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2080



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps
Re: ST, Verhoven
Re: Starship Troopers
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Further Sacrilege?
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: WOW
Re: Piracy and lurking and fleet deployment
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
K'kree and the future (flame bait?)
Re: Petition to rename the TML
OT: Starship Troopers ship-design question (small spoiler)
Re: Petition to rename the TML
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Aslan pens and penmanship???

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:44:47 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

Joe,
I've  run a concept similar to your suggested changes in 
the past and it seemed to work well within the canon of
Traveller. Here are the changes that I've used and the 
adjustments to the Traveller Universe at large that I've used.

1.	Jumps are instantaneous with the following caveats:
	a. The jump is instantaneous in the external universe but
	it is not instantaneous with in the "x" universe of  jumpspace.
	b. Jump duration within the "x" universe is still a perceived
	time of appx a week. With normal costs of existance needed
	to be handled. Food, air, etc. (beer is good, too)
	c. There is a die rolls for jump dislocation of ships computers
	(low prob in most cases but does give the GM some real
	irritation power)
	d. All other time consuming activities such as moving in and
	out of system still take the same amount of time.

2.	Consequences of your propsed changes for the game
	
I think that with out some sort of conterbalance. Either is operational
terms
or in effected terms such as experienced duration or perhaps turn it about
the
other way - Instantaneous jumps for the ship but a specified amount of time
in the extant or normal universe (somewhat like CJ Cherryh universe). 

This may help or it may not.
I like to know what you decide and how it works out.
Thanks
Pat

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:51:10 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: ST, Verhoven

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>To be fair, if I didn't know Starship Troopers (the novel) damn near by
>heart, I probably wouldn't be as harsh on the movie.

Sorry, Bruce, but if the movie tried to mimic the book to the letter, you
and maybe 10 other people would see it. That which makes a fine novel does
not necessarily translate into a fine movie.

>It's just that Verhoven seems to have zero facility for putting real
>people in his films, every one of 'em is a live action cartoon.

So what's wrong with that? Has it occurred to you that maybe he's not
*trying* to put "real" characters in his movies? You view one director's
movies for realistic, 3D characters and another for superlative depictions
of heroism and villainy. Each artist has his brand of art. Broaden your
horizons and take each for what it has to offer.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:55:50 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Jim Heivilin wrote:

>Yup, the boot camp was in the book. If I remember correctly (and I'm
>sure I'll be corrected if I don't), boot camp was relatively fatal.
>Something like 3 out of 100 would survive (not graduate, survive).  My
>numbers might be off somewhat.

Yeah, you're off. It wasn't *that* bad. Not even close. It was difficult to
graduate, but no, 97 out of 100 enlistees did not die. Not even citizenship
would be worth that high a price.

I think something like 150 out of a class of 1100 graduated or something
like that.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:31:15 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

Derek Wildstar wrote:

>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:14:58 -0600 (CST), Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
>><jlockett@io.com>
>> >With Derek's suggestion in mind, doesn't that depend on the gender you'd
>> >prefer to, er, liase with?  :-)
>>
>> Well, a bit seriously, most of the Aslan are going to want to
>> "liase" with a member of the opposite gender.  (I don't know
>> how you would fit an attraction of the majority of the race
>> to the same gender into the evolution of the species).
>
>Maybe I should clarify a bit here ... I wasn't proposing that Aslan females
>would be attracted only to other females.  Rather, I was suggesting that the
>majority of Aslan females would find a member of either gender attractive
>as a sexual partner under the right conditions.  IMHO, Aslan society frowns
>on pre-marital relations between a male and a female (for reasons I explained
>earlier), and this would encourage unmarried females would tend to have their
>'liasons' with other unmarried females.

Or, on the other hand, as at least one person has pointed out recently,
they might not have any drive to "liaise" except for reproductive function.

>I don't see the Aslan as a society that's a matriarchy or a patriarchy
>(IMHO, I see the two 'labels' for Aslan society as being an example of
>human-centric thinking).  An Aslan (male or female) would probably consider
>the entire concept of a 'battle of the sexes' just a little silly.   Instead,
>the Aslan are a race were the labor division between males and females is
>more sharply drawn and more related to the biology, and both sexes have to
>cooperate in order for either to reach their potential.

I tend to look at it, in the most simplistic sense, in terms of Aslan
females holding all the _power_, and the males all the _authority_.  An
Aslan male, IMTU, is the ultimate zoon politikon -- and not much else.

Of course, what isn't political? <G>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:13:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Further Sacrilege?

Just out of curiosity,

Have they issued a movie tie-in book called 'Starship Troopers' which
follows the *script*?

Now that would be sacrilege!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:40:40 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.

No.  Jack has to be Norris.

"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:12:03 +0100
From: Mats Erlandsson <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: Re: WOW

On Monday, November 10, 1997 8:39 PM, Traveller-digest [SMTP:Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>] wrote:
> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:26:05 +0100 (MET)
> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: WOW
> 
> >> >Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First=
>  Survey)?
> >> >
> >> >3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
> >> >
> >> Hm.   This gives us a routine quality starport, a planet 3200 km in
> >> diameter, a very thin, tainted atmosphere, with 60% hydrosphere (probably
> >> ice cover given it's around a type M star), 800 billion people (yeek),
> >> government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4 manual; it's
> >
> >Isn't it some kind of Religious Dictatorship?
> 
> Nope. Religious dictatorship is D ... it's one more step up the ladder.
> 
>  

 Government E = Religious Autocracy.

 CSS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:07:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy and lurking and fleet deployment

Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:16:38 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
[Stuff that we have already established out disagreement on has
been deleted...]

>>Assuming by anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding (anti-anti-
>>logistics?) since anti-logistics will be forays of ships grouped into
>>small fleets into enemy territory and is not really much for stopping
>>piracy.

>The ships that are useful for catching enemy merchants in wartime are
>quite up to warding off pirates in peacetime.

But, again, they need to grouped into squadrons that can
survive forays into enemy space.  Additionally, they
need to be stationed near the boarder.

>This would be true if the stardrive of the Traveller universe wasn't a
>jump drive. But it is. Consequently, it will often be much more efficient
>to establish a "convoy" force in each intermediate system and send off
>the merchants without escorts.

I agree that you might designate protected routes through
the Imperium and have protection at beginning and ending
jump points rather than send the ships along.  (Though you
might decide that rather than have 6 fleets along a 6 systems
route, you just have one or two that travel back and forth.
I could see it going either way.  Also, if you group armed
merchants into convoys, their own firepower can be a
significant assistance to the Naval vessels).

>Of course, there will be situations where an escort force is a better
>choice, and you won't need to garrison every system all the time, so
>there MAY not be enough ships to patrol every system in peacetime,
>but it certainly isn't "by definition".

I don't agree.  The fact that you have convoys, or protected
routes, is so you don't have to protect merchants everywhere
all the time.  That is what you need to do for piracy.

> For example, the IN may deem
>it necessary to guard against enemy raider squadrons in wartime, which
>necessitate using larger squadrons for protection than those needed to
>guard against pirates.

Yes, but again, you have the problem that if you disperse these
ships then you have vulnerable shipping for weeks or months
after the start of hostilities while word gets out to them
and they can form up.   I also think that the numbers of
ships that would be need to stop piracy are a lot bigger
than those necessary to protect "convoys" of ships (esp.
if they provide some piracys) but, since I am frankly
a bit burned out on this thread, I won't press the point.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:15:06 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:50:23 -0500 (EST), DustyLV769@aol.com
>I'm kind of confused...isn't a "Deadmans tumble" a spin around 3 axis (roll,
>pitch, and yaw?)  I also understood that the reason it's called Deadmans
>tumble is that is was impossible for a ship to dock w/ a vessel tumbling in
>all 3 planes...therefore anyone trapped on a tumbling ship was "a Dead man"
>
>Am I missing something?

There are the arbitrarily defined ship's axis that are used
for reference, and then there is the axis of rotation.  A
spinning, nonprecessing object (and you need something to
apply a torque about the spin axis to cause precession),
will spin about one axis.  A "Deadmans tumble" is a spin
about an axis that doesn't line up with one of the standard
reference axis (and has "components" along those axes, but
doesn't literally spin on them).  The causes the ship
to be a lot more like a spinning irregularly shaped object
and makes it harder (but not impossible) to stop spinning.

As an aside.  This will not keep up.  Eventually a ship
will end up tumbling end over end.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:24:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:41:23 -0700
> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> > 
> > I would like to run a my next Traveller game with the following rules:
> > 
> > 1) Jumps are instantaneous.
> > 2) You have to travel fairly distant from any significant gravity well in a
> > system before you can make a safe jump (on the order of 3-5 days).
> 
> Have you read the Mote in God's Eye, by Pournelle and Niven? That's
> pretty much what they do. You may want to pick it up for flavor.

Ah, but they add a third constraint:

3) For any pair of star systems A and B, there is at most one point
   in system A at which it is possible to jump to a similarly unique
   point in B.

This means that to traverse a chain of systems, you have to jump in, then
cross a *lot* (usually) of real space to reach the jump point to the next
system.  This slows travel back down to Travellerish values, while still
keeping communication fast (though not quite as fast as in my previous
post, nearly so).

This model of jump leads to the possibility of naval blockades, which are
all but impossible in Traveller except in very special cases.  This has
far-reaching effects on how navies and governments would be organized.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:19:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

[I guess I don't see Derek's description of inherent and
wide spread bisexuality as being unworkable but, for me
at least, it isn't what I see as being the most likely
outcome.]

At 2:54 PM -0800 11/10/97, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> raising and supporting a significant fraction of the race who never
>> contribute to it continuation is the sort of burden that evolution weeds
>> out.

>This is a common misconception, and has had people puzzling over it for a
>while.  Two common Terran animals - bees and wolves - also have this
>'problem' of non-reproducing individuals.  In bees, the vast majority of the
>population consists of females, and the vast majority of these females do not
>reproduce.  According to conventional wisdom (which you summarize above),
>these 'non-contributing' worker bees are evolutionarily impossible.

Well, bees are a lot different.  Each member of the hive is related
to the queen.  For this to apply to the Aslan it would have to
be a situation where every had a family that had a dominate
(presumably the first born) who was the only one who would
reproduce.  Her sisters would exist to serve her and make sure
she has numerous and healthy offspring.  You could adapt this
to the Aslan society where, unlike bees, the males control
territory (when a female married she would bring along her
sisters).  However, I see this as being a bit different than
canon.

You could have a sitation where a pregnant Aslan releases
hormones that that _temporarily_ stops her sisters from
getting pregnant, however, I don't see this as needing
to affect their sex drive.

>In most wolf-packs, only a few of the members reproduce regularly (the
>Alphas).  The other members of the pack get few opportunities to reproduce,
>and in some cases never do.

First of all, it is not always the _same_ alpha males.  In many
cases you can only hold the position for a period of time before
a new alpha male comes along or the rigors of holding off the
others just get to you.  In any case, the fact is that there is
a competition is key here.  The other wolves aren't just
accepting the situation and going off with other males.  They
retain their attraction for females and competer for them
undergoing to process that weeds out weaker genes in favor
of stronger ones, and so has evolutionary value rather than
just being a burden on the gene pool.

It is also hard to turn this around.  It is in the females
interest to exclude some males from mating.  The females
can't bear children with more than one male at a time anwyway
and they all have an interest in mating with the top male.
However, if there are females not mating, it is in the interest
of both the females who don't have mates, and the males who
do, to mate.

Also, with the wolves you are not lessing the reproductive
potential of the pact as a whole when you have one male
mate with all the women.  This is not true when you have
females refrain from mating.

>Considering that one of the driving forces behind Aslan social evolution was
>the need to be able to cooperatively hunt large game (this is canon), it
>makes a certain amount of sense for the proto-Aslan to evolve in a direction
>that enables larger hunting parties (one male plus several females, if we
>accept the postulate that highly-territorial proto-Aslan males won't
>cooperate with each other).
>
>If all of these females are pregnant or caring for small children at the same
>time, they can't hunt as effectively.

Of course you can have a simple method to stagger births (horomones
from a pregnant female temporarily inhibit fertility in her
pack mates).  However, this probably isn't necessary because
lions don't have a problem with this.  What usually happens
is that births are times to coincide with times when game
is plentiful and even pregnent females can hunt until just
before birth.

>From canon material,
>we know that some number of Aslan females never marry, and therefore the
>average number of wives for an Aslan male is less than three; I suggest that
>it lies somewhere between 1 and 2 (probably around 2 somewhere).

>I also suggest that Aslan family groups will be tightly bonded ('monogamous'
>was the word I used - incorrectly - in my initial post) no matter how many
>wives are in the marriage.

I guess I don't understand.  If you have multiple marriages, so
all women can get married, why don't they all just sleep with their
husbands.

>> If it wasn't, the background would need some explination of how
>> all those males die out.

>Well, there _is_ the 'females commit infanticide to support the matriarchy'
>point of view, but that's too much for me to take.

I would be OK if it was woven into the over all vision of the race.
But it has too many potential consequences and issues to be just
added in.

>> I always assumet there were 4 sex chromosomes and you needed
>> to come up all "male" to be a male.

>I don't think this actually works (consider the sex chromosomes the kids
>would inheret, and the relative frequencey of males and females amoung their
>kids), but something similar might.

Well, I didn't work through the probabilities.  Suppose you have an
X/Y chromosome and and A/B one.  The male always gives Y and B.
The mother can give either X/Y and either A/B.  But you need to be
Both YY and BB to be male.  Doesn't that give a 3:1 ratio?

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1997 20:55:30 -0500
From: edgar@beckett.rmaonline.net (Mr. Whipple)
Subject: K'kree and the future (flame bait?)

It seems to me that humaniti had better get their act together and
unite to exterminate the K'kree before we're all sorry. Opinions?

- -- 
Edgar Whipple            This is my signature.
ewhipple@rma.edu         It's not much, but it's all I have.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:52:25 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

At 09:12 PM 10/11/97 +0000, you wrote:

>
>Sic transit gloria mundi.
>

errr...... Gloria gets sick  when travelling on mondays?


Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

Hows that for shocking latin..... :)


Harry

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1997 21:12:27 -0500
From: edgar@beckett.rmaonline.net (Mr. Whipple)
Subject: OT: Starship Troopers ship-design question (small spoiler)

* Spoiler Warning*

This message reveals two medium-small details from scenes in the
film. None of the plot is deducible, except for the vague facts that
the Bugs are a powerful military threat, and that people die violently
in the film. The visuals may lose some of their impact, however, if
you know about them in advance.

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

I was most impressed with ships in the film. I especially liked the
decks' being visible in detail when a certain ship was split in half.

(ObTrav) The one character's being killed by a descending emergency
bulkhead door was a particularly good detail, if perhaps a bit
overstated. ;) I picture the bulkhead irises on Traveller ships being
this dangerous during various emergencies.

So anyway, I'm wondering what the huge rotating column in the film
might be for. We saw it frequently on the bridge, and the very large
structure visible outside the ship rotated at the same speed, so I
presume they are the same device. Part of the stardrive, perhaps?

BTW, I also really liked the bridge POV effect when the ship entered
stardrive.

- -- 
Edgar Whipple            This is my signature.
ewhipple@rma.edu         It's not much, but it's all I have.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:08:49 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

I'd have to agree. I wouldn't object to Traveller stats for movie "stuff,"
but this is not a forum for discussing movies. I'd ask for those who wish
to do so to do it via private email and not the TML.


Sean Schoonmaker
schoon@aimnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:52:46 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

At 05:19 PM 11/10/97 -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
>[I guess I don't see Derek's description ... as being unworkable but, for me
>at least, it isn't what I see as being the most likely outcome.]

That's OK (and why I was careful to label what was my opinion and what was
fact from the accepted canon).  IMHO, history doesn't always follow the most
likely outcome, but does so more often than not (this is the "Vikings in
Constantinople" theory of unlikely-sounding-but-true history).

Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be odder.

* Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd.  Duck-billed
  platapuses (platypi?) are odd.


>First of all, it is not always the _same_ alpha males.

We were talking about females.  Depending on the food supply (and particularly
in marginal areas), the lower-ranking females may not bear a litter.  The
alpha female tries to discourage the lower-ranking females from mating, and
may attempt to induce miscarriage and/or kill the puppies.

>>If all of these females are pregnant or caring for small children at the
same
>>time, they can't hunt as effectively.
>
>Of course you can have a simple method to stagger births (horomones

Yep, you could.  I chose not to do that, in part because it's been done
a lot in SF (and in real life - did you know that human females tend to
synchronize their periods if they live in close proximity with one another?).

>I guess I don't understand.  If you have multiple marriages, so all women 
>can get married, why don't they all just sleep with their husbands.

Because we were talking about unmarried females?  
By definition, unmarried females don't have husbands yet.
According to canon, some females never marry.


>Well, I didn't work through the probabilities.  Suppose you have an
>X/Y chromosome and and A/B one.  The male always gives Y and B.
>The mother can give either X/Y and either A/B.  But you need to be
>Both YY and BB to be male.  Doesn't that give a 3:1 ratio?

That works fine for the first generation,  BUT you have (on the
average), 1 YYBB male, and one each of YXAB, YXBB, and YYBA females.

These females then mate with YYBB males, and throw:
YXAB+YYBB -> 1 YYBB male, and 1 each YXAB, YXBB, YYBA females;
YXBB+YYBB -> 2 YYBB males, and 2 YXBB females; and
YYBA+YYBB -> 2 YYBB males, and 2 YYBA females.

I'm not really up on genetics and biochemistry, but perhaps we could invoke
something along these lines: Aslan genes require an "activator"; gene-like
material that "activates" certain genes (making them dominant); genes which
do not recieve an activator are effectively recessive.  Each parent
contributes
approximately half of the genetic material; each parent contributes a specific
set of genes and a set of activators that work on the genes contributed by
the 
other parent.  In the case of sex, one parent contributes four genes that 
determine sex: M1, F1, F2, and F3.  The other parent supplies ONE activator 
which activates one of these four.  The activator binds to a gene essentially
at random, and determines the sex of the child.  The child (no matter which
sex), carries a complete set of genetic material.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:52:29 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

At 06:54 PM 11/10/97 EST, Kenji wrote:
<Big Snip>...
>>The Lathe of Heaven.
>
>This was made into a movie?  Really?  Wow!  Must try to see it sometime.
>

Shown on PBS in the late 1970s (Pre-summer of 1980 because I'd not yet
moved into house...) ++Good!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:55:30 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Aslan pens and penmanship???

Being a parasitic vampiric tick, two things have spurred me into some sort of
pathetic action.  All this talk of the Bilanidin font has piqued my interest
in making a font, and the idea that there are two fonts in Aslan (one male
and one female) also interested me.

My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not pens, but
"ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone and mud with :)  So
I can get an idea of the look for their language.  I've seen flowery Aslan
"font" type in some pictures I believe, however, I'm already getting some
interesting ideas...

I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be more
flowery, flowing, and ornate.

I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
business-like and traditional.

Semo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2080
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2081



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Petition to rename the TML
Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
RE: Dulinor and Strephon
How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]
Re: Petition to rename the TML
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:14:14 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

At 03:33 PM 11/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
>> into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
>> 
>
>Now you've done it. I just HAVE to come up with an adventure where
>my group gets to meet Strephon. I can just see Strephon saying "You
>have to ask me nicely" to a PC request.
>
>Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
>-- 
>Erwin Fritz
>Unix/NT/LAN Guy
>Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
>http://www.glja.com
>
	Gary Oldman has done some mighty impressive work in that
	area, also -- I saw a disaster called the "Fifth Element"
	that he might have saved if they had left almost everything 
	else out of it.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:11:03 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

At 05:15 PM 11/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:50:23 -0500 (EST), DustyLV769@aol.com
>>I'm kind of confused...isn't a "Deadmans tumble" a spin around 3 axis (roll,
>>pitch, and yaw?)  I also understood that the reason it's called Deadmans
>>tumble is that is was impossible for a ship to dock w/ a vessel tumbling in
>>all 3 planes...therefore anyone trapped on a tumbling ship was "a Dead man"
>>
>>Am I missing something?
>
>There are the arbitrarily defined ship's axis that are used
>for reference, and then there is the axis of rotation.  A
>spinning, nonprecessing object (and you need something to
>apply a torque about the spin axis to cause precession),
>will spin about one axis.  A "Deadmans tumble" is a spin
>about an axis that doesn't line up with one of the standard
>reference axis (and has "components" along those axes, but
>doesn't literally spin on them).  The causes the ship
>to be a lot more like a spinning irregularly shaped object
>and makes it harder (but not impossible) to stop spinning.
>
>As an aside.  This will not keep up.  Eventually a ship
>will end up tumbling end over end.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov
>
	What would cause a ship, which is acted upon by
	no outside force, to begin tumbling? If it did tumble,
	why would it tumble end-over-end?

	Just trying to stir things up.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:52:08 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

Doug Berry wrote:

[snipp]
>>>Contact.
>>
>>Yeah, you got me there -- but it had Jodie Foster in it, who I find even
>>more tedious, predictable, and insulting than sci-fi action/adventure
>>formulas.
>
>So you're saying that it would have been a better film if Jodie had
>exploded for no adequately explored reason at the end.. perhaps during the
>credits?

By then it's far too late.  Better she gets in a fistfight with a recycled
Nazi archetype and explodes for no reason right in the first five seconds
of the film, while the title rolls.  I'm sure it's what St. Carl would have
wanted.

>>>The Lathe of Heaven.
>>
>>This was made into a movie?  Really?  Wow!  Must try to see it sometime.
>
>Low-budget, but very well done.  I *think* it's out on video, go to your
>local SF convention and bug dealers.  The film was my first exposure to the
>story, which got me to read the book, which got me into Ursula K. LeGuin

LeGuin.  This started ringing bells.  I went and got a copy of _The Left
Hand of Darkness_ and finally read it through.  Arrgh!  Look, y'all, the
Sayat aren't meant to be a riff on the Gethenians.  And they're NOT
knockoff Orgota!  (The Sayat have _balls_, fer cryin' out loud!)  I never
got beyond the first chapter before, I swear!

><snip>
>
>>I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
>>into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
>
>Just picturing him raging on his flag bridge as more and more ships go
>missing... OK, who plays Lucan the Mad?  Jim Carrey?

Harvey Keitel would be good, I think.  I somehow picture Clint Eastwood as
Norris, and Sharon Stone as Seldrian.  Bruce Willis as Norris's "personal
aide".  But we still need to get Gene Hackman and the Spice Girls in there
somehow, and also Woody Allen (Lt. Windhook, maybe).  And what about
Archduke Bzrk?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:09:34 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Kenneth --

Are you, um, still looking for a subject for your film?

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:49:03 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

> From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> wrote

> >Sic transit gloria mundi.

> errr...... Gloria gets sick  when travelling on mondays?

No, No, thats not what it means.  In the 1970's New York City was having
a lot of problems negociating with its employees unions.  The city's
relationship with the Transit Workers Union was especially difficult. 
The transit department ended up going on strike on a Thursday.  The
whole city was half paralyzed by the lack of subways and buses on
Thursday and Friday.  So the city and the union engaged in a nonstop
negociating session all weekend long trying to solve their differences. 
Finally they came to an agreement at about 1 am on Monday morning, the
strike was called off, the transit workers were happy, and everyone else
could get to work.

Naturally the headline in one of the local papers was Sick Transit's
Glorious Monday !

:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:06:36 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Well here's my list:
Emperor Strephon - Nicholas Cage
Empress Iolanthe - Shirley McLean
Princess Iphegenia - Holly Hunter
The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman
Archduke Dulinor - Sam Neil
Emperor Lucan - Jim Carey or Danny DeVito
Duchess Margaret - Bea Arthur or Rhea Pearlman
Archduke Norris - Harrison Ford
Archduke Brzk - Micheal Dorn
Archduke Ishuggi of Vland - James Earl Jones
Lt Trace Windhock - David Duchovny
Coordinator of SolSec - Sir John Gilgud
Margaret's evil sidekick - John Lithgow
Honourable admiral who Lucan executes in the 1st scene - Marlon Brando
Archduke Norris's sidekick - Lucy Lawless
Walk on role as Yaskoydray - Marc Miller (who else?)

Director - Peter Jackson

Any other ideas?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:07:19 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Dulinor and Strephon

Interestingly enough, what with anagathics, I see Pierce Brosnan as a good Strephon...

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Kenneth Bearden[SMTP:dreamer@brokersys.com]
Sent: 	Monday, November 10, 1997 10:40 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.

No.  Jack has to be Norris.

"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:31:32 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]

                         Becoming an Evil Overlord...

It seems to be a good career choice. It pays well, there are all sorts of 
perks and you can set your own hours. However, every Evil Overlord I've 
heard about invariably gets overthrown and destroyed in the end.  I've 
noticed that no matter whether they are barbarian lords, deranged wizards, 
mad scientists or alien invaders, they always seem to make the same basic 
mistakes every single time. With that in mind, allow me to present...


Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord...

My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear Plexiglas visors, not 
face-concealing ones that can hide the enemy.

My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.

My noble half-brother whose throne I usurped will be killed, not kept 
imprisoned in a forgotten cell of my dungeon.

Shooting is not too good for my enemies and should be done ASAP.

The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the 
Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of 
Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object 
which is my one weakness.

I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.

When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, 
will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say "No" and shoot 
him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No.

After I kidnap the beautiful princess, we will be married immediately in a 
quiet civil ceremony, not a lavish spectacle in three weeks' time during 
which the final phase of my master plan will be carried out.

I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely necessary. 
If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labeled ``Danger: Do 
Not Push''. The big red button marked ``Do Not Push'' will instead trigger 
a spray of bullets on anyone stupid enough to disregard it. Similarly, the 
ON/OFF switch will not clearly be labeled as such.

I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum -- a small hotel 
well outside my borders will work just as well.

I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to prove 
it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies 
alive to show they pose no threat.

One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my 
plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.

All slain enemies will be cremated, or at least have several rounds of 
ammunition emptied into them, not left for dead at the bottom of the cliff. 
The announcement of their deaths, as well as any accompanying celebration, 
will be deferred until after the aforementioned disposal.

The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any other 
form of last request.

I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that 
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the 
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.

I will never utter the sentence "But before I kill you, there's just one 
thing I want to know."

When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to their 
advice.

I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to 
usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a 
crucial point in time.

I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but 
one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father.

Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal 
laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments 
that a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly.

I will hire a talented fashion designer to create original uniforms for my 
Legions of Terror, as opposed to some cheap knock-offs that make them look 
like Nazi storm troopers, Roman foot soldiers, or savage Mongol hordes. All 
were eventually defeated and I want my troops to have a more positive 
mind-set.

No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not 
consume any energy field bigger than my head.

I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in 
their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power 
generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless --my 
troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and 
rocks.

I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. 
 Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will 
never utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, 
death is usually instantaneous.)

No matter how well it would perform, I will never construct any sort of 
machinery which is  completely indestructible except for one small and 
virtually inaccessible vulnerable spot.

No matter how attractive certain members of the rebellion are, there is 
probably someone just as attractive who is not desperate to kill me.

Therefore, I will think twice before ordering a prisoner sent to my bed 
chamber.

I will never build only one of anything important. All important systems 
will have redundant control panels and power supplies. For the same reason 
I will always carry at least two fully loaded weapons at all times.

My pet monster will be kept in a secure cage from which it cannot escape 
and into which I could not accidentally stumble.

I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into 
confusion.

All bumbling conjurers, clumsy squires, no-talent bards, and cowardly 
thieves in the land will be pre-emptively put to death. My foes will surely 
give up and abandon their quest if they  have no source of comic relief.

All naive, busty tavern wenches in my realm will be replaced with surly, 
world-weary waitresses who will provide no unexpected reinforcement and/or 
romantic subplot for the hero or his sidekick.

I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just 
to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by.

I won't require high-ranking female members of my organization to wear a 
stainless-steel bustier. Morale is better with a more casual dress-code. 
Similarly, outfits made entirely from black leather will be reserved for 
formal occasions.

I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.

I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now 
they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X.

I will not imprison members of the same party in the same cell block, let 
alone the same cell. If they are important prisoners, I will keep the only 
key to the cell door on my person instead of handing out copies to every 
bottom-rung guard in the prison.

If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a battle, 
I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant.

If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring anywhere, 
I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for 
them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age.

If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the 
forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out the attacking leader 
among his army.

I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable 
superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of 
keeping it in reserve.

Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky time-travel 
devices.

When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, 
ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes 
and filching keys happens to follow him around.

I will maintain a healthy amount of skepticism when I capture the beautiful 
rebel and she claims she is attracted to my power and good looks and will 
gladly betray her companions if I just let her in on my plans.

I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work for 
the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give 
the other guy a sporting chance.

I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for 
what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up I will not 
draw my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure,'' 
then suddenly turn and kill some random underling.

If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man 
possibly do?'', I will reply "This.'' and kill the advisor.

If I learn that a callow youth has begun a quest to destroy me, I will slay 
him while he is still a callow youth instead of waiting for him to mature.

I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with 
respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not 
immediately come after me for revenge.

If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact which can destroy me, I will 
not send all my troops out to seize it.  Instead I will send them out to 
seize something else and quietly put a Want-Ad in the local paper.

My main computers will have their own special operating system that will be 
completely incompatible with standard IBM and Macintosh powerbooks.

If one of my dungeon guards begins expressing concern over the conditions 
in the beautiful princess' cell, I will immediately transfer him to a less 
people-oriented position.

I will hire a team of board-certified architects and surveyors to examine 
my castle and inform me of any secret passages and abandoned tunnels that I 
might not know about.

If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! 
 Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well," and kill her.

I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being then attempt to 
double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary.

The deformed mutants and odd-ball psychotics will have their place in my 
Legions of Terror. However before I send them out on important covert 
missions that require tact and subtlety, I will first see if there is 
anyone else equally qualified who would attract less attention.

My Legions of Terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot 
learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target 
practice.

Before employing any captured artifacts or machinery, I will carefully read 
the owner's manual.

If it becomes necessary to escape, I will never stop to pose dramatically 
and toss off a one-liner.

I will never build a sentient computer smarter than I am.

My five-year-old child advisor will also be asked to decipher any code I am 
thinking of using. If he breaks the code in under 30 seconds, it will not 
be used. Note: this also applies to passwords.

If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?", 
I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.

I will design fortress hallways with no alcoves or protruding structural 
supports which intruders could use for cover in a firefight.

Bulk trash will be disposed of in incinerators, not compactors. And they 
will be kept hot, with none of that nonsense about flames going through 
accessible tunnels at predictable intervals  -- The flames will be 
constant!

I will see a competent psychiatrist and get cured of all extremely unusual 
phobias and bizarre compulsive habits which could prove to be a 
disadvantage.

If I must have computer systems with publicly available terminals, the maps 
they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main 
Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main 
control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment.

My security keypad will actually be a fingerprint scanner. Anyone who 
watches someone press a  sequence of buttons or dusts the pad for 
fingerprints then subsequently tries to enter by repeating that sequence 
will trigger the death ray.

No matter how many shorts we have in the system, my guards will be 
instructed to treat every surveillance camera malfunction as a full-scale 
emergency.

I will spare someone who saved my life sometime in the past. This is only 
reasonable as it encourages others to do so. However, the offer is good one 
time only. If they want me to spare them again, they'd better save my life 
again.

All midwives will be banned from the realm. All babies will be delivered at 
state-approved hospitals. Orphans will be placed in foster-homes, not 
abandoned in the woods to be raised by creatures of the wild.

When my guards split up to search for intruders, they will always travel in 
groups of at least two. They will be trained so that if one of them 
disappears mysteriously while on patrol, the other will immediately 
initiate an alert and call for backup, instead of quizzically peering ar  
ound a corner.

If I decide to test a lieutenant's loyalty and see if he/she should be made 
a trusted lieutenant, I will have a crack squad of marksmen standing by in 
case the answer is no.

If all the heroes are standing together around a strange device and begin 
to taunt me, I will pull out a conventional weapon instead of using my 
unstoppable super weapon on them.

I will not agree to let the heroes go free if they win a rigged contest, 
even though my advisors assure me it is impossible for them to win.

When I create a multimedia presentation of my plan designed so that my 
five-year-old advisor can easily understand the details, I will not label 
the disk "Project Overlord" and leave it lying on top of my desk.

I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead 
of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at 
a time.

If the hero runs up to my roof, I will not run up after him and struggle 
with him in an attempt to push him over the edge. I will also not engage 
him at the edge of a cliff. (In the middle of a rope-bridge over a river of 
molten lava is not even worth considering.)

If I have a fit of temporary insanity and decide to give the hero the 
chance to reject a job as my trusted lieutenant, I will retain enough 
sanity to wait until my current trusted lieutenant is out of earshot before 
making the offer.

I will not tell my Legions of Terror "And he must be taken alive!" The 
command will be "And try to take him alive -- unless he resists."

If my doomsday device happens to come with a reverse switch, as soon as it 
has been employed it will be melted down and made into limited-edition 
commemorative coins.

If my weakest troops fail to eliminate a hero, I will send out my best 
troops instead of wasting time with progressively stronger ones as he gets 
closer and closer to my fortress.

If I am fighting with the hero atop a moving platform, have disarmed him, 
and am about to finish him off and he glances behind me and drops flat, I 
too will drop flat instead of quizzically turning around to find out what 
he saw.

I will not shoot at any of my enemies if they are standing in front of the 
crucial support beam to a heavy, dangerous, unbalanced structure.

If I'm eating dinner with the hero, put poison in his goblet, then have to 
leave the table for any reason, I will order new drinks for both of us 
instead of trying to decide whether or not to switch with him.

I will not have captives of one sex guarded by members of the opposite sex.

I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, 
e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the 
medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along 
the lines of "Push the button."

I will make sure that my doomsday device is up to code and properly 
grounded.

My vats of hazardous chemicals will be covered when not in use. Also, I 
will not construct walkways above them.

If a group of henchmen fail miserably at a task, I will not berate them for 
incompetence then send the same group out to try the task again.

After I capture the hero's super weapon, I will not immediately disband my 
legions and relax my guard because I believe whoever holds the weapon is 
unstoppable. After all, the hero held the weapon and I took it from him.

I will not design my Main Control Room so that every workstation is facing 
away from the door.

I will not ignore the messenger that stumbles in exhausted and obviously 
agitated until my personal grooming or current entertainment is finished. 
It might actually be important.

If I ever talk to the hero on the phone, I will not taunt him. Instead I 
will say this his dogged perseverance has given me new insight on the 
futility of my evil ways and that if he leaves me alone for a few months of 
quiet contemplation I will likely return to the path of righteousness. 
(Heroes are incredibly gullible in this regard.)

If I decide to hold a double execution of the hero and an underling who 
failed or betrayed me, I will see to it that the hero is scheduled to go 
first.

When arresting prisoners, my guards will not allow them to stop and grab a 
useless trinket of purely sentimental value.

My dungeon will have its own qualified medical staff complete with 
bodyguards. That way if a prisoner becomes sick and his cellmate tells the 
guard it's an emergency, the guard will fetch a trauma team instead of 
opening up the cell for a look.

My door mechanisms will be designed so that blasting the control panel on 
the outside seals the door and blasting the control panel on the inside 
opens the door, not vice versa.

My dungeon cells will not be furnished with objects that contain reflective 
surfaces or anything that can be unraveled.

If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor 
their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore 
them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will 
and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except 
during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each
others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will 
immediately order their execution.

Any data file of crucial importance will be padded to at least 1.45Mb in 
size so that it won't conveniently fit on a single diskette.

Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I 
will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access and, of 
course, free e-mail!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:52:50 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> writes:

> At 09:12 PM 10/11/97 +0000, [Dom Mooney] wrote:
> 
> >
> >Sic transit gloria mundi.
> >
> 
> errr...... Gloria gets sick  when travelling on mondays?
> 
> 
> Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
> 
> Hows that for shocking latin..... :)

De minimis curat TML.[*]

(Possibly a Latin motto for the list, that.  Or how about...)

Alea jacta est.


Nick

[*] By deconstruction of "De minimis non curat lex", "The law is not 
concerned with trifles."  I don't actually know any Latin except for 
such taglines...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:26:32 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

Quoth kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz):

> I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
> into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.

Malcom McDowell as head of the Ministry of Justice for Lucan
Mark Hamill as Lucan (OK, I'm sick...)
Joe Pesci as the Vilani shadow emperor (... and twisted)
Helen Mirren as Margaret (Juliette Binoche in the Hollywood remake)
David Duchovny as a Zhodani agent

I can sort of see Jack Nicholson as Norris, too.  We want someone who 
can wear bushy eyebrows with pride...

Anyone remember "The Princess Bride"?  I can just see the swordfight 
between Lucan and Dulinor:  "My name ees Emperor Lucan.  You killed 
my uncle - prepare to die!  My name ees Emperor Lucan..."

And in the best traditions of Hamlet they kill each other.  Enter 
Norris, stage left, aboard his flagship ISS Fortinbras.

Nick

ObStarshipTroopers:

If Verhoven did a version of Hamlet, would Hamlet's final line be
"And the rest is violence"?
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:39:00 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio

>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:52:46 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

>At 05:19 PM 11/10/97 -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
>>[I guess I don't see Derek's description ... as being unworkable but, for me
>>at least, it isn't what I see as being the most likely outcome.]

>That's OK (and why I was careful to label what was my opinion and what was
>fact from the accepted canon).  IMHO, history doesn't always follow the most
>likely outcome, but does so more often than not (this is the "Vikings in
>Constantinople" theory of unlikely-sounding-but-true history).

>Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be odder.

>* Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd.  Duck-billed
>  platapuses (platypi?) are odd.

Actually neither are particularly 'odd' genetically or evolutionarily
speaking. The plants that grow around hot smokers are 'odd' (chemosynathis),
but thats about the only example I can think of. One thing about evolution
is it almost always makes sense and is built around suprisingly few basic
design blocks. Thus on Earth most higher animals use paired sexual
reproduction; have four similar limbs, a head and a tail; have joints
arranged socket/hinge/socket; have spines and ribcages; etc. It appears that
when nature finds an efficent basic design it is simply modified to meet
changing circumstances. It is likely that aliens will be very 'odd' indeed.
There is no good reason why other design blocks can't be used. Thus if on a
world the first vertibrates use a geodesic ribcage, there is a very strong
likelyhood that this will become a feature of all vertibrates, if early
Khusyu life produces a 3:1 female/male ratio, then this will be carried on.

So why would evolution throw up this ratio? The best answer is probably why
not? it doesn't hurt the reproductive capacity of the species, in fact it
helps it as only 25% of your population is reproductively useless verses
our 50% (strictly speaking only a very few males are needed to reproduce).
What it does hurt is adaptability. The male role in evolution is to be
experimented on; the female role is babyfactory. Thus when nature wants to
'try' a new gene (say colour blindness) it will effect males far more than
females, since they are more disposable in the short term. If the gene is
useful the males with it will be more successful and pass on that gene, if
not the gene dies out. Humans 50/50 ratio allows evolution to work faster
than the Aslan, but if all life on Khusyu has a 3:1 ratio then it's not a
problem is it?

>I'm not really up on genetics and biochemistry, but perhaps we could invoke
>something along these lines: Aslan genes require an "activator"; gene-like
>material that "activates" certain genes (making them dominant); genes which
>do not recieve an activator are effectively recessive.  Each parent
>contributes
>approximately half of the genetic material; each parent contributes a specific
>set of genes and a set of activators that work on the genes contributed by
>the 
>other parent.  In the case of sex, one parent contributes four genes that 
>determine sex: M1, F1, F2, and F3.  The other parent supplies ONE activator 
>which activates one of these four.  The activator binds to a gene essentially
>at random, and determines the sex of the child.  The child (no matter which
>sex), carries a complete set of genetic material.

There's no need for anything so 'fancy', a mechanism already exists and is
well documented amongst humans. Y sperm is more likely to fertilise an egg
than X sperm, so that approximately 55% of all embyros are male at the time
of conception. However nature is experimenting even in the womb and male
embyroes are less viable than female ones and many will spontanously abort in
the first few weeks so that by 5 weeks the ratio is roughly 50/50. The Aslan
3:1 female/male ratio can be explained by either one of these two mechanisms,
or a combination of both.

However my own favourite idea is that all Aslan embyroes are initially
female but that environmental factors trigger 25% to change to male. This
can then help get over the evolutionary disadvantages of the ratio. If when
rapid evolution is required the environment will trigger more males. Also
allows lots of scope for Aslan mad scientists :*).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2081
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2082



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Invention within the Traveller setting???
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: OT: Starship Troopers ship-design question (small spoiler)
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:57:26 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:31:15 +0800
>From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
>Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
>
>Derek Wildstar wrote:

>>Maybe I should clarify a bit here ... I wasn't proposing that Aslan females
>>would be attracted only to other females.  Rather, I was suggesting that the
>>majority of Aslan females would find a member of either gender attractive
>>as a sexual partner under the right conditions.  IMHO, Aslan society frowns
>>on pre-marital relations between a male and a female (for reasons I explained
>>earlier), and this would encourage unmarried females would tend to have their
>>'liasons' with other unmarried females.

>Or, on the other hand, as at least one person has pointed out recently,
>they might not have any drive to "liaise" except for reproductive function.

All Earth species (our only model so far) have a very strong drive to
'liaise' for the purpose of reproduction, otherwise they very quickly become
ex-species. Evolutionarly speaking the only reason for the desire to liaise
is to reproduce. We only have a sex drive because it makes us more likely
to reproduce, it serves no other function. Thus post-menopausal women suffer
a noticable drop in sex drive as they have served their 'reproductive
purpose' (and all sorts of health problem kick in for the same reason);
where as men keep their sex drive fairly much undimished until death.

I'd say it was fairly likely that Aslan females have a sex drive and that
Aslan society would have evolved a way of dealing with this for unmarried
females, either by male prostition or lesbian relationships. Interesting
though, low status males (outcasts etc) might be forced into prositition
to survive. In fact I'd hazzard that male prosititution would be far more
common than female in Aslan society. Could make it interesting when the
drunken human crew of a starship visits a brothel in Aslan space :*).
(maybe the joke about the Aslan in the frenchmaid's outfit awhile back
is not as inappropriate as it seems).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:09:13 -0000
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: Invention within the Traveller setting???

Hi Folks,

One of the big things I've noticed about the setting is that it seems to be
static. Fundamental limits seem to have set in and no-one seems to see these
as candidates for invention. Would it not be likely that there would be
research programs by big corporations, universities and even individuals to
over come these limits. The canonical history is full of these events but
the canonical present seems to be devoid of this activity. In the history a
number of fundamental limits were overcome:- sound barrier, light barrier,
age barrier, etc.

The communications barrier is what I see as one of the things that the
Imperium would be extremely keen on overcoming. The one week granularity of
the communication medium (ie. jumpspace) would surely be a target for
massive research.

How about a competition amoung the TML'ers to see who can design a
deployable mechanism that would overcome the week delay. The winner will be
showered with kudos by all.

To get the ball rolling...

Event Horizon Communications presents:-

The Jumpspace Cable system.
- ---------------------------
The Jumpspace Cable is an object that exist in a large elongated jump
bubble. At its extremities are positioned interfaces that interact with a
similar interface in real space. The interfaces are separated by a parsec in
real space. Within the elongated jump bubble, which does not move through
jumpspace, the "cable" stretches for a long as is required to be able to
interface with the two real space interfaces. The real space and subspace
interfaces are connected by a microjumping XBoat or jump torpedo. While in
realspace, the Xboat collects data for transmission and forwards on the data
received. While in jumpspace it merges its jump bubble with the "cable" and
transfers its data. The major delay in the system would be the propagation
along the "cable" and the transfer times at the interfaces.

The merging of the jump bubbles is the core of the invention.

Are we talking TLG or TLZ here??

/JD

Sig -------------------------------
Somewhere between real and real real.
- -- Senator Dan Quayle pinpointing their location to reporters aboard the
Quayle campaign plane. (reported in Wall Street Journal, 10/21/88)
- -------------------------------Sig

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:07:28 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) writes:

> >> The distance the target needs to accelerate to be effective is
> >> about a ships radius which if assuming the ship is a cube is
> >> approximately:
> >> (3) r = v^(1/3)/2
> >> v = ships volume in m^3
> >
> >I think this needs to be a ship's diameter, not a ship's radius,
> >because a shot aimed at the target's bows is still going to hit if
> >the ship moves by r.  In other words, FC will always lead a little to
> >compensate for the effects of acceleration.  Thus
> >
> >r = v^1/3 where r is the distance the ship must move to evade.
> 
> You are not amining for the bow as you do not know in what direction the
> acceleration will be (assuming the ship can change its sttitude
> significantly in a timelag period. This might not be the case for large
> ships but is an assumtion in my calcs). Even if you aimed for the bow and
> knew where it was you would increase your propability of miss as any
> acceleration less than the anticipated would make you miss directly (draw
> it out on paper to see).

I was assuming acceleration is a more-or-less known direction because 
unless provided with some pretty hefty thrusters mounted sideways, 
Traveller ships won't turn at anything like 1 radian/sec^2 
acceleration.  Thus, a shot towards the bows means you have to move 
pretty well the whole ship's length to evade.

[snip of Fusion+ power-shears]

> >Doesn't this imply that the target ship is moving perpendicular to
> >the firing ship?  (ships accelerate along a principal axis, usually).
> >If not, the perceived movement will be less -- say by a factor of 2
> >if the target is approaching at 30 degrees from dead-on, rather than
> >crossing the path of the firing ship.  Say 10 hexes.
> 
> The above calcs assumed the worst scenario for the shooter ie perpendicular
> acceleration in relation to the shooter and instantaneous attitude change
> ie the acceleration vectors direction and length can change at a whim of
> the pilot.
> (You might note a trend here; whenever I'm in doubt I'll always guess to
> reduce hit propability as I find these numbers way to high as they are).

Well, I'm with you on that, but I'm having trouble justifying it to 
myself with any other rationale than "It's only a game."

> >Note that if you fire two lasers together (with a MFD, in TNE/T4
> >terms) you *double* your chances of hitting the target.  Thus, three
> >lasers fired as a battery will automatically hit an AHL at 9 light
> >seconds (90 hexes), VERY long range.
> 
> Propabilities doesn't work that way! Quick now what is the propability of
> rolling at least 1 six if you roll 6D6? Surely not 100%. - You do not
> double your hitchance, you halve your risk at missing.

You're completely right, probabilities don't work that way.  But
this isn't a question of probabilities!  If you fire two lasers
independently, you do get a probabilistic result.  If you fire them
together, aimed (craft diameter) apart, you can double the area of
space in which a laser shot can hit.

The "minimum distance to evade" you define represents the deviation 
from the movement the ship's original vector would produce.  However, 
it follows that the firing ship can guess whether the ship has evaded 
or not; if we assume linear acceleration (as I did) then there's a 
50:50 chance of guessing right.  Thus, if you fire two lasers, (craft 
diameter) apart, you will always hit.  The same principle applies 
even if the craft can rotate quickly, but you'll need more lasers as 
it could be in a circle, radius (minimum distance).

Having said which, what I said above *was* wrong... if you double the 
range you'll need four times as many lasers to guarantee a hit 
(linear acceleration) or sixteen times (significant off-linear).
However, the point about firing as a battery still holds: the range 
at which a ship is automatically hit is increased.

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 04:41:39 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Starship Troopers ship-design question (small spoiler)

I'm assuming the rotating column was some sort of internal gravity
generator.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:01:09 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

> I think those of you who are hanging onto the word of Robert Heinlein with
> every ounce of anal retention you can muster are missing the point. There
> were a *lot* of similarities to Heinlein's novel, including at least half a
> dozen instances in which dialogue was taken from the book verbatim. I think
> the film was a fine tribute to the book.
> 

Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one. 
anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:05:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:

>  Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while

I keep hearing people say this, and I can never figure out where they
get it from?

Please explain why you think that the society in Starship Troopers 9the
book) is fascist?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:16:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

In mail you write:

> Yup, the boot camp was in the book. If I remember correctly (and I'm
> sure I'll be corrected if I don't), boot camp was relatively fatal.
> Something like 3 out of 100 would survive (not graduate, survive).  My
> numbers might be off somewhat.

*WAY* off. Out of a few *thousand* in Rico's group at Camp Curry, they
had something like *4* deaths. They had more get involuntary medical
discharges, and a *lot* who just plain *quit*.

And most of the deaths and injuries were due to the fact that even
*practicing* with some things is pretty dangerous.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:56:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:

>>         Still, I can't believe that Verhoeven believed that even the
>> average American moviegoer would buy people outrunning nuclear fireballs...
>
> Well Roderick, it HAS been done before.  One easy example that comes to
> mind is "Predator", where Arnie outruns and outlives the nuclear
> self-destruct mechanism of the Alien's body-armor.

Much better example. The scene in the highway tunnel in Independce Day.
We have a *dog* outrunnung a fireball and blast wave (one strong enough
to throw cars around) *and* a flimsy steel door THAT SWINGS *INWARD*
protecting the lady, dog, and kid (If it had swing *outward(, with the
opening facing *away( from the blast, I might have bought it)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:26:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

In mail you write:

>>All the eye candy in the world can't help it if the story is bad, if the
>>story's good, all the bad science can't kill it.
>
> The last part of your truism... I've found a contradiction: Total recall
> Good story (by late P K Dick) and bad FX, bad set design, bad lighting
> (especially the mars underground bars), bad acting etc actually made the
> movie a pile of junk and cartoonish cheapness.

I just saw Total Recall for the first time the other day (on TV). I
winced at the errors several places in the film. The first was when he
pulled out the tracking device. No way in hell can you pull something
that big out of that part of your head and survive without medical
attention... 

I won't list the others, but even in a "typical Schwarzenegger action
flick" they stood out enough to drag me out of the film and back to
reality.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:00:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

In mail you write:

> Boy Roderick, I think you've set the record for times someone has gotten
> me to post to this list in a week!  :)
>
> I quote : 
>
>>        Look; you're computer-literate, right?  How would you react to a
>> film where somebody downloads a 5.6 terabyte database over the net at prime
>> time via a 9600 baud modem in 5 minutes, and then stores the whole darn
>> thing on a floppy without so much as zipping it?
>> 
>>         You'd say that it was complete BS, that the producers, writers, and
>> directors were completely computer-illiterate, and that that inaccuracy
>> just blew the whole plot out of the water for you (at least I think you
>> would, anyhow).
>
> Ok.  I know the PERFECT example of this.  "Hackers".
> The graphics and visuals of hacking were so absurd I was
> laughing/groaning thru the whole movie.  If you've seen it, I don't
> think I need to elaborate further.  :)

Sorry, Warganes was even sillier. Getting those graphics on an old
*IMSAI*, with an acoustic modem? Yeah, right.

> And the comment they made in the film, "686 processor, top of the line"
> is so dated by nowadays standards it's almost as comical as that star
> Trek episode, "The Way to Eden", with the space-hippies.  <smirk>

Hey, if they still nnumbered them that way, the Pentium II would only
be a 786!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:55:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-11-06 12:40:47 EST, you write:
>=20
> <<=20
>  Yup. I'm not doing an upper case set. The Roman & Cyrillic alphabets are
>  rare in that they have upper and lower cases. I see no need for two
>  cases.
> >
>=20
> Tho upper and lower case differentiation does make things more readable.
>=20
Yes, that=B4s why we (the Solomani) do use them so often. But an alien=20
culture maybe has another way to differentiate between them -=20
underlining, different colours ...=20
The Aslan (again!) use different symbols for female and male Trokh. Do=20
they have capital letters?

Another point is the frequency of usage of capitals in texts. If you read=
=20
an english text, you see capitals only at beginning of sentences and=20
names. There are other possibilities to highlighten these like the big=20
illustrated initials of chapters in old books (often used today to break=20
the text.) or the aegyptian hieroglyphic cartouche (is this the right=20
word?) for names. Old Latin was only written in (now) Capital Letters,=20
U and V also being the same letter.

In German Texts (like I show here), every Nomen begins with a capital=20
Letter. There have been some Considerations of getting rid of this, but=20
no one really accepted it, although it would make some things easier.

Now, does anyone know if there is a canon about this for the Vilani and=20
others?=20

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:06:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Contact by Carl Sagan -- SPOILER WARNING

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> As a long string of 5s is as likely as the same length of any other
> sequence of digits and that the location in the decimal progression is as
> likeley as any other you cannot say anything about probable/improbable
> there. Also note that as the decimal progression of any irrational
> (rational as well for that matter) number is infinite any given place in
> the progression will have to be close to the beginning (infinitely close =
to
> the start).
>=20
> All irrational numbers share the behaviour of having arbitrary sequences =
of
> digits showing up.
>=20
Right this way. If the digits are arbitrary or only seem to be is a=20
matter of philosophy, I think.

It is even possible for two numbers, like pi and e to have complete=20
different sequences, i.e. a short sequence of the one does never show up=20
in the other. I cannot prove that, I know, but we=B4re getting here into=20
the differences of countable and uncountable infinities ...

If there is a hidden message in pi that can be found by calculating pi in=
=20
the base of eleven, I believe, Carl Sagan himself would have been the most=
=20
surprised by it!

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:23:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

SemoFetus@aol.com asked:
> My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like.

They use brushes for the traditional writing, and more ordinary pens for the
female script.

> I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
> straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
> are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be more
> flowery, flowing, and ornate.

Yep; the males are the "artistic" ones.

> I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
> business-like and traditional.

Better make that business-like and non-traditional (for the Aslan), even if
it is more like the Roman alphabet you're familiar with as "traditional".
Remember, the Aslan makes are the traditionalists, and the females are the
innovators.


Here's what my Aslan article says about it (this is based on various Canon
sources).  I've really got to get this article into print ...

  Fteirle [Aslan] share a common language, Trokh.  It has changed very
  little over the past 4,000 ftahea [Aslan years] and has only two dialects:
  one each for males and females.  There are even two different written
  forms of Trokh: one, Yoyoeaokhtef ("brush-writing"), is an ornate
  ideographic written form, and is used for official documents and for
  decoration.  The other is Tieftuawaoirlouheei (female script), which is a
  phonetic alpabet well-suited to business and technical documents, as well
  as many computer applications.

There you have it ...


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:38:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tim Connors wrote:
<snip>
>	Gary Oldman has done some mighty impressive work in that
>	area, also -- I saw a disaster called the "Fifth Element"
<snip>

I agree that we probably ought to lighten up on the film talk but I
had to mention a rumor I heard.  The 'Lost is Space' film (apparently
a serious work) starring Gary Oldman as Dr. Smith.  Hummm....

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:32:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>By quite a bit.  As I recall, they had two casulities during training in
>the Canadian Rockies, plus one execution (name striped from Company rolls).
Okay, that is quite a difference from my numbers and Chris Griffen's.

>>comment on it, I went through it!] The last word I had was that the
>>basic trainees only have to get a 150 (of 300) on their PT test (while
>>180 is passing in line units!).
>
>What MOS is this for?  I can see a finance comptroller clerk getting
>away with a 150PT, but anybody facing more danger than monitor EM and
>paper cuts has got to be in better shape than that!
This is for basic training.  Wannabe soldiers aren't assigned an MOS
until the graduate basic.  So this is for all trainees coming out of
Fort Leonard Wood.  Nothing is quite so confidence building as seeing
trainees hobble thru the PX in BDUs and tennis shoes.  <misty eyed
recollection mode on> When I was going through training we ran in
combat boots! </misty ...>

>My first FTX was the last one at Ft. benning to use wax bullets.  Ouch.
Probably better than the laser MILES stuff.  Teach you to duck when
you should!  That buzzer was annoying, though.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
(playing since 1976!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:54:24 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

>I was assuming acceleration is a more-or-less known direction because
>unless provided with some pretty hefty thrusters mounted sideways,
>Traveller ships won't turn at anything like 1 radian/sec^2
>acceleration.  Thus, a shot towards the bows means you have to move
>pretty well the whole ship's length to evade.

Yes, but if the evading ships pilot decides to ease his foot off the
gaspedal or whatever you'll miss.

That is: Picture the targets speed a known factor and set up a 2D
coordinate system (angular coordinates but we treat them as cartesian due
to them being so small compared to the ranges) with the predicted location
based upon last known velocity at origo. We have deduced what acceleration
the ship is capable of by continued measurements of velocity changes. Even
if we know the direction the acceleration will have more or less we do not
know its magnitude (there was some talk about the 'jerk' value for
thrusterplates and others; how fast can they change their applied thrust?).
To get max hit propability we'll center our shot distribution pattern
around the center of the most likely acceleration (that is the same as the
last measured acceleration). Here the gunner might impart some of his
knowledge such as "I know this baby cannot do more than 1.67 G so we'll put
our patternscenter a bit further back".

All this is just bickering methinks as we both agree that it is fairly easy
to hit targets very far away. The good thing with this IMHO is that
shooting ranges go up to about the same as detection ranges which makes
good roleplaying. Factors such as vibrations from the shooters thrusters
misaligning the lasers and others have not been taken into account and I'm
shure there are many more hinderances to shooting and we can emphasize them
or not depending on if we want spacecombat to resemble naval battles or
submarine fights - I vote for the latter.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:48:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not
>pens, but "ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone
>and mud with :)  So I can get an idea of the look for their language.
>I've seen flowery Aslan "font" type in some pictures I believe,
>however, I'm already getting some interesting ideas...
Many years ago (1982?) I toyed with the idea of an alphabet based on
using their dewclaws to carve letters on wood (as the beginning early
in their history) but didn't do much with it.  It was rather curvy and
swirly and something like kanji or other chinese/japanese 
letters/symbols. Just a thought ... 

>I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly
>of straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that
>the males are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point
>it would be more flowery, flowing, and ornate.
Given how much of their culture seems Japanese/Samurai, I opted for
the warrior/poet type of mentalility wherein the warrior had to be
adept as some sort of 'art' besides the sword.

JMHO

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:02:05 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

[I wrote, re: Aslan females]

>>Or, on the other hand, as at least one person has pointed out recently,
>>they might not have any drive to "liaise" except for reproductive function.
>
>All Earth species (our only model so far) have a very strong drive to
>'liaise' for the purpose of reproduction, otherwise they very quickly become
>ex-species. Evolutionarly speaking the only reason for the desire to liaise
>is to reproduce. We only have a sex drive because it makes us more likely
>to reproduce, it serves no other function. Thus post-menopausal women suffer
[snip]
>I'd say it was fairly likely that Aslan females have a sex drive and that
>Aslan society would have evolved a way of dealing with this for unmarried
>females, either by male prostition or lesbian relationships. Interesting

What I meant to suggest is not that they don't have a sex drive, but that
it's intermittent -- controlled by a relatively autonomous oestral cycle,
or triggered by prolonged exposure to a particular adult male's pheromones,
or whatever.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:02:00 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

SemoFetus wrote:

>Being a parasitic vampiric tick, two things have spurred me into some sort of
>pathetic action.  All this talk of the Bilanidin font has piqued my interest
>in making a font, and the idea that there are two fonts in Aslan (one male
>and one female) also interested me.
>
>My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not pens, but
>"ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone and mud with :)  So
>I can get an idea of the look for their language.  I've seen flowery Aslan
>"font" type in some pictures I believe, however, I'm already getting some
>interesting ideas...
>
>I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
>straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
>are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be more
>flowery, flowing, and ornate.
>
>I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
>business-like and traditional.

Hm!  I haven't seen _Solomani & Aslan_, but I guess that contains some
samples of Aslan script?  My imagination would have male script be, as you
say, florid in the extreme -- like Burmese script on mescaline, or X, or
both.  Female script would be a chopped-down version of that -- or
forerunner of that, maybe.  I'd also imagine that males don't type or use
voice transcription; it's important to show one's breeding and aesthetic
mettle by exhibiting calligraphic refinement at all times -- thus,
electronic writing pads, etc.  Females wouldn't care.

For some graphical ideas, there's some good websites out there with samples
of various writing systems, including the dozens of lesser-known-to-us
South and Southeast Asian ones.  Don't have any URLs at hand, though.
There's a number of general coffee-table-style books on the subject as well
- -- your local library might have some.

'Course, there's always the question of what sort of system Aslan scripts
are.  Alphabetic, syllabic, morphophonemic, hybrids?  Any canonical
statement on this?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:03:04 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

>My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not pens, but
>"ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone and mud with :)
That has a simple and obvious answer: they look like a claw.
Early Aslan writing was almost certianly marks clawed into wood. Maybe
developing into marks made on clay (I'm a big fan of Cuneiform). (Didn't
they develop in prarie's or river basins?)
It was probably quite a long time before they came up with artificial
writing implements at all. Probably chizels for stonework. The original
"brush" might have been someone's tail. Later more recognisable brushes
made from their own fur. Then other, more suitable furs. As pens became as
much as an artform as the writing itself with the hair being of more and
more exotic prized creatures.

>So I can get an idea of the look for their language.
I believe that both Arabic and Hebrew characters descend from the various
Cuneiform scripts. (But I could be wrong.)

>UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
>are much more "artistic" in general design,
Yes, Males _are_ more artistic. There attitude would lead them to the logic
that it is more important that it looks good, than that someone can read
it.

>I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
>business-like and traditional.
I think you mean "more business-like _than_ traditional." Traditional
scripts are going to be the more archaic and represent previous type-forms.
For example, on most computers you have "Times New Roman" which has seriefs
and such and derives from lead type. You also have Arial or Helvetica, a
sans-serief font that is much more likely to be used as the basic system
font. It is a more modern photo-typesetting derivation.
I would look to cuneiform for your inspiration. (Check out
http://www.sron.ruu.nl/~jheise/akkadian/index.html) Pick a few of the more
basic shapes to be in your alphabet. Simplify the triangales and wedges to
dots and lines.

(Aside: what font design package are you using? I've done a lot of work
previously in MetaFont. I'm looking for a Winodws based (free) True Type
font design package to transfer some of my stuff to.)

Cheers,

Jo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2082
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2083



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

OT: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
Delswa Schoolbus (TL11)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Dsalpor Luxury Aircar (TL11)
Re: Piracy
Re: Petition to rename the TML
CSC Abuse - Giilkan Ice Cream Cart (TL6)
Merton Luxury Aircar (TL12)
Odd lifeforms   Was: Aslan Male/Female Ratio
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Cost of piracy suppression
Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:11:48 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: OT: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>Well here's my list:
[snip]
>Emperor Lucan - Jim Carey or Danny DeVito

No, no, no; we've got to have a Lucan with some teeth, not just some
ridiculous little loser of a bad comic.  That's why I thought of Keitel --
seen _The Bad Lieutenant_?  Or wait -- Pee Wee Herman!  Yes!

>Lt Trace Windhock - David Duchovny

_Perfect._  Typecast the little creep 'till he abducts himself.

>Honourable admiral who Lucan executes in the 1st scene - Marlon Brando
>Archduke Norris's sidekick - Lucy Lawless

Hold on, that's just plain SILLY.

>Walk on role as Yaskoydray - Marc Miller (who else?)

On the other hand, this is a must...

>Director - Peter Jackson

The man who brought us _Bad Taste_?  I think so!  Sorry, Kenneth!

John Williams must NOT be permitted to get anywhere near the score.  _This_
is where we bring in the Spice Girls.  There's five of them, right?  We'll
dress them up as Hiver and it'll be a riot.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:42:31 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Kenneth --
>
> Are you, um, still looking for a subject for your film?

No, I have one (actually, four) that I'm focussing on.  I've always had
this focus since my announcement.  Where did you get the idea that I
didn't know what I wanted to write about?

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:46:22 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman

Excellent!

> Director - Peter Jackson
>
> Any other ideas?

Let's get someone to direct that is really familiar with the material.  Hmm.
Let me think...

Oh yea, I know someone.  His name is Kenneth Bearden.

I here he's new on the scene--but passionate and determined.

Yes, he'd be a good choice.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:54:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

David P. Summers writes:
>Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:16:38 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>The ships that are useful for catching enemy merchants in wartime are
>>quite up to warding off pirates in peacetime.
> 
>But, again, they need to grouped into squadrons that can survive forays
>into enemy space.

They need to be grouped in such squadrons when they set off for enemy space,
yes. They don't need it to guard a planet from pirates. Pirates do not
operate in larger raider squadrons (and any that did would need to prey on
worlds with a lot of traffic, which would have defenses of their own).
More importantly, pirates don't like to fight armed ships, because it is
not cost effective. In the Traveller Universe arming a ship is comparatively
cheap, but making it an _effective_ armed ship is very expensive.
 
>Additionally, they need to be stationed near the border.

Canonically the regular fleets of the Imperial Navy only use 14% of the
military budget. The colonial ships of the IN use another 14% of the budget,
and they are built, maintained and stationed in the subsector where the
money is collected. The planetary navies account for between 42 and 66%
and are also, of course, stationed where the money comes from (Assumption:
The Imperial army accounts for roughly the same part of the Imperial
military budget that the army of a vacuum world does, while a planetary
army runs from 6 to 40% of the local budget).

Now, the colonial fleets are propably not a mirror image of the regular
fleets, but there must be some correlation because obsolescent ships 
from the regular fleets are transferred to the colonial forces and
because colonial fleets are supposed to reinforce regular ones. In
addition, the cruisers and battleships (and their escorts) of interior
subsectors do not have to be at the same state of readiness to defend
as those of the frontier subsectors, so even if they don't have as many
raiders as the frontier fleets, they are more able to deploy capital
ships away from their major systems.

>>This would be true if the stardrive of the Traveller universe wasn't a
>>jump drive. But it is. Consequently, it will often be much more efficient
>>to establish a "convoy" force in each intermediate system and send off
>>the merchants without escorts.
> 
>I agree that you might designate protected routes through the Imperium
>and have protection at beginning and ending jump points rather than send
>the ships along. (Though you might decide that rather than have 6 fleets
>along a 6 systems route, you just have one or two that travel back and
>forth. I could see it going either way.

Well, if you only have one or two convoys every three months then that is
best. With the four protected intermediate systems (I assume that the end
points of the route will be defended by other forces), you can send off
any number of ships at any time with no delay at all.
(Btw. how many routes go through four intermediate systems between systems
with home defenses? Very few, I'd say, though I know that the Gyro Cadiz
task force did).

>Also, if you group armed merchants into convoys, their own firepower can
>be a significant assistance to the Naval vessels).

Not if they are up against proper warships. A merchant will have a
computer with as low a factor as he can get away with (ie. capable of
handling his maximum jump, but no more). The difference between a factor
1 computer and a factor 9 makes it impossible even to hit the attacker.
Even the difference between a factor 3 and a factor 6 is huge. 

>>Of course, there will be situations where an escort force is a better
>>choice, and you won't need to garrison every system all the time, so
>>there MAY not be enough ships to patrol every system in peacetime,
>>but it certainly isn't "by definition".
> 
>I don't agree.  The fact that you have convoys, or protected routes, is
>so you don't have to protect merchants everywhere all the time. That is
>what you need to do for piracy.

A raider force supposedly consists of one or two cruisers plus an
undefined number of lesser ships. If it is the size of a traditional
squadron then there will be about 8 lesser ships of destroyer size.
Pirates, if they exist, are armed merchantmen or perhaps Corsairs. In
short: you don't need nearly as many ships to protect against pirates
as you need to protect against raiders.

And, btw. you don't need to protect merchants everywhere all the time.
If a system is such a backwater that only one ship per year goes there,
you only need to protect it there once a year. You may not even have to
do that (depends on whether said ship is on a regular schedule or not),
because a pirate can't afford to loiter in a system for an average of
six months hoping for prey.

Granted, not many systems are quite that much of a backwater, but there
are a number of them.

>>For example, the IN may deem
>>it necessary to guard against enemy raider squadrons in wartime, which
>>necessitate using larger squadrons for protection than those needed to
>>guard against pirates.
> 
>Yes, but again, you have the problem that if you disperse these ships then
>you have vulnerable shipping for weeks or months after the start of
>hostilities while word gets out to them and they can form up.

Vulnerable for a short while, yes. Most of the merchant ships in the first
system the raiders get to will be in deep shit. So will the ones arriving
at that system for the next 14 days. After that you will have some weeks
of disruption while the merchants huddle in safe ports while convoys get
organized. Meanwhile, the protective forces in the systems that are hit
may be lost, or they may get away. In any case, the ones in nearby systems
get the warning a week later, which is exactly the same time those
stationed at major systems get it, or perhaps two weeks later (depends on
how many ships you believe there would be in a scout force), in which
case they are one week delayed.

Only, keeping your guard ships idling at instant readiness at your main
systems is no better. In fact, it is very much worse. Say you have 100
systems in your AO that are too small to have a home fleet. Say you
opponent have 100 raider ships. If you keep all your ships at your home
bases, your opponent can spread out his 100 ships to all 100 vulnerable
systems, which means that you lose all traffic going to every one of those
systems for the two weeks it takes to hear of it and send out your own
ships. If instead you have a single raider-sized ship stationed in every
system, you force him to double up, which means you only lose the traffic
to 50 systems (plus a number of your guard ships; the exact number depends
on whether it is possible to achieve surprise by jumping in near another
vessel and on what extra rules you apply to the combat system to reflect
the advantage of surprise; if you use straight HG rules you lose very few,
if any). If you station a squadron or a couple of cruisers in each system,
you force hime to concentrate in 12 or 15 ship squadrons restricting your
losses to 6-8 systems.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1997 14:08:18 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Delswa Schoolbus (TL11)

Delswa Schoolbus (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     4.20 displacement ton box;  7.16 tonnes;  kCr 22.2
Chassis:
     58.8 kL box (6.0 m long x 3.1 m wide x 3.1 m high);  Structure: 292 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 11.9 L of enriched water
(11.9 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 300 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 109 km/h; 
Range: 10933 km;  Agility: 0DM (2.9G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  56 cramped passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL11, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Subregional Radar (100 W)  Resolution: 1.0 mm per km of range
Other:
     Safety Features: Roadgrid, fire suppression system
     797 L of cargo space

Even with advanced communications systems, children learn best when they are
physically present with theirpeers and instructors, especially when they are
young. The Delswa grav vehicle is designed as a schoolbus. It can seat 56
children in comfort (or 56 adults in discomfort) and safety. Speed is not an
issue on most routes; the Delswa's 109 km/hmaximum is quite adequate. Grav
compensation can be added, but it increases the price to over kCr 37; most
school systems prefer to install a governor limiting the acceleration to 1G.
Roadgrid and an standard fire suppression system make the Delswa a safe
method of transporting children. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:37:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>Erwin Fritz wrote:
>> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now
>>graven
>> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
>
>No.  Jack has to be Norris.
>
>"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."

Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
Margaret  = Meryl Streep.

We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1997 22:29:22 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Dsalpor Luxury Aircar (TL11)

Dsalpor Luxury Aircar (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.10 displacement ton box;  2.25 tonnes;  Cr 9765
Chassis:
     15.4 kL box (3.9 m long x 2.0 m wide x 2.0 m high);  Structure: 119 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 11.8 L of enriched water
(11.8 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 300 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 1144 km/h; 
Range: 113973 km;  Agility: -7DM (9.5G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  6 roomy passenger seats
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL11, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: automatic sunroof, entertainment centre, wet bar
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, Roadgrid
     1.50 kL of cargo space

Billed as a luxury aircar, the Dsalpor is affordable by almost anyone, and
holds none of the social cachet of, for example, a Merton. In essence, it is
a family aircar with the addition of an entertainment centre and a wet bar.
No sensors are instaled, limiting the Dsalpor to the ground-based Roadgrid on
most civilized worlds. Although the Dsalpor is capable of reaching orbit, its
thin skin and lack of life support make any such trips unlicensed; an offense
usually punishable by confiscation of the offending vehicle. 


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:23:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Greg Smith writes:

>The discussion of stealing ships and likening it to cars today made me
>wonder about stripping ships as cars are often stripped.  Perhaps it
>wouldn't be feasible to do some cutting in space (before the authorities
>arrive), but why would pirates not take the cargo (whatever was
>valuable), take what they could from the mechanical parts of the ship
>(spares could always come in handy), any ransomable victims (space the
>rest) and leave the hull to the authorities?

There are several different, though related, issues. The first one is how
often a pirate gets a chance to capture a ship. One large slice of the
discussion hinges on how many systems would have one or more patrol
vessels present and on just how much that would affect the pirate's
chances. Not even the most ardent anti-piracy advocate (that would be
me) claims that a pirate wouldn't be free to go after at least inbound
ships if they were alone in the system.

The second issue is how likely the pirate is to capture his prey. That
part of discussion deals with just what your common or garden pirate
would be capable of. Is his engines better than his prey's, is his
computer better than its, can he capture it without taking damage
himself, can he threathen it into surrender?

The third issue is the economics of the profession: Does a pirate capture
the whole ship or just make off with the cargo? Can a pirate aim to catch
especially valuable cargoes or does he have to take what fate delivers to
him? How much can he sell his loot for, and where? And finally, can he
make enough money to pay his expenses and provide a profit.

Obviously all three issues are to some degree interrelated, If a pirate
installs a new computer then he become much better able to fight, which
means a better chance of capturing his prey and outfighting 200 T weakling
patrol ships, but he also have to 'earn' much more money to pay for the
computer. If he only takes cargoes he dosen't provoke as much reaction
from the authorities, but he also have to capture far more ships to earn
the same amount of money. This makes the discussion twist and turn as it
shifts from emphasizing one issue to another. (Thus I've found myself
debating the cost and effectiveness of a single SDB despite the fact
that I don't really think SDBs will be used to patrol backwater systems.)

A fourth, somewhat tangential, issue is whether or not a ship can conduct
business in a system and still avoid leaving behind enough hard data to
enable the authorities to track it down at a later date.

Essentially I believe that if you use the straight CT rules then the
opportunities to catch a worthwhile prey, the chance of making the
capture and the value you get out of a capture are so low and the risk
and expense of operating a pirate operation so high that the odds are
stacked way beyond reason against professional pirates, while keeping
the identity of your ship a secret is incompatible with normal merchant
operations, which makes amateur piracy a mug's game too.

If you press me I have to admit that, yes, piracy is _possible_, just,
IMO, very, very unlikely. But then, in the statement that set off the
present round of the debate I said that piracy didn't make much sense
in the Traveller universe, not that it was downright impossible.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:41:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Petition to rename the TML

>Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> wrote:

>At 09:12 PM 10/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>Sic transit gloria mundi.
>errr...... Gloria gets sick  when travelling on mondays?


'So passes the glory of the world'?

>Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

The Great Lie - 'it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country'.

>Hows that for shocking latin..... :)

Better than mine!

Anyone want to put those two into Vilani?

Dom




- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1997 23:06:20 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC Abuse - Giilkan Ice Cream Cart (TL6)

Giilkan Ice Cream Cart (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     0.15 displacement ton open frame;  1.52 tonnes;  Cr 1451
Chassis:
     2.10 kL open frame (5.6 m long x 79 cm wide x 79 cm high);  Structure:
79.3 kg of fiber laminate, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.13 cm thick, 1 armour
rating
     
Performance:
     5.50 kW TL1 Rowers power plant;  Fuel: 0 mL of food (0.000 g), 0 hours
supply
     Propulsion System: 5.00 kW wheels; Maximum Speed: 2 km/h; 
Range: 0 km;  Agility: +1DM (0.0G)
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 external crew station
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: kitchen for 1 simultaneous meal
     451 L of cargo space

Kids! What would summer be like without the merry sound of an ice cream cart?
Next summer, earn extra pocket money selling ice cream from a Giilkan cart.
Modern fibre laminate construction and a space-efficient serving unit make
the Giilkan a joy to peddle, while almost 500 litres of storage holds enough
ice cream to satisfy the hungriest crowd. 

(Obviously, the CSC design system does not work very well for peddle-powered
vehicles! Most of the mass in this design are the "rowers" that power the
vehicle.)


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1997 22:29:58 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Merton Luxury Aircar (TL12)

Merton Luxury Aircar (TL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     1.20 displacement ton box;  3.03 tonnes;  kCr 32.8
Chassis:
     16.8 kL box (3.10 m long x 2.1 m wide x 2.1 m high);  Structure: 126 kg
of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, sealed to 1 atm
     Armour: 3 front (0.04 cm), 2 sides (0.03 cm), 2 rear (0.03 cm), 2 top
(0.03 cm), 2 bottom (0.03 cm)
Performance:
     272 kW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 8.53 L of enriched water
(8.53 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 200 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 561 km/h; 
Range: 55902 km;  Agility: -6DM (9.4G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  6 roomy passenger seats
     Basic life support; Grav Compensation (2G), Whole vehicle compensated
Communications:
     Continental Radio (1.00 kW, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     Active Regional Radar (1.00 kW)  Resolution: 0.200 mm per km of range
Other:
     Options: entertainment centre, wet bar
     Safety Features: licensed for orbital use, anti-theft system, Roadgrid,
fire suppression system
     2.65 kL of cargo space; SmartCoat display on all unused surface area

The Merton represents the epitome of luxury, an exquisite blend of
hand-finished details and high-tech safety features. Six passengers travel in
roomy comfort, cushioned with grav compensators and diverted by a
state-of0the-art entertainment centre. Creature comforts are satisfied by a
fully-stocked wet bar. Roadgrid and modern navigational electronics ensure
that the pilot delivers his charges safely, even to orbital destinations. As
a final touch, the SmartCoat surface allows the owner to display the most
fitting colours for any occasion.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:34:10 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Odd lifeforms   Was: Aslan Male/Female Ratio

At 00:39 1997-11-12 +1300, you wrote:
>>Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be odder.
>
>>* Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd. =
 Duck-billed
>>  platapuses (platypi?) are odd.
>
>Actually neither are particularly 'odd' genetically or evolutionarily
>speaking. The plants that grow around hot smokers are 'odd'=
 (chemosynathis),
>but thats about the only example I can think of. One thing about evolution
>is it almost always makes sense and is built around suprisingly few basic
>design blocks. Thus on Earth most higher animals use paired sexual
>reproduction; have four similar limbs, a head and a tail; have joints
>arranged socket/hinge/socket; have spines and ribcages; etc. It appears=
 that
>when nature finds an efficent basic design it is simply modified to meet
>changing circumstances. It is likely that aliens will be very 'odd' indeed.
>There is no good reason why other design blocks can't be used. Thus if on a
>world the first vertibrates use a geodesic ribcage, there is a very strong
>likelyhood that this will become a feature of all vertibrates, if early
>Khusyu life produces a 3:1 female/male ratio, then this will be carried on.

Go find some books on the Burgess-findings (spelling?). Some geologists
found a bunch of really old (about 350 million years old, I think) animals
who had been fossilized under a mudslide near a coastline. Most of these
animals ARE odd. The first animal they found was named 'Hallucigenia' ...

The modern Earth does not have a very big variation of species. Every single
insect has six legs, four wings, a head and a body in two parts. True, some
species have the wings underdeveloped or grown together, but they all come
from one basic design (SIDS ... Standard Insect Design System). This means
that every insect species has origins tracing back to the same species.

The animals found in Burgess were different from each other ... dozens of
different creatures with virtually no common bond.

Most of these species died out, but one or two has descendants today. One of
these descendants is a group of worms that lives on muddy seabeds (i.e. in
the same way as their ancestors did millions of years ago).

Get a good book featuring these creatures, especially with pictures. They
really get your imagination going alien.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:29:44 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:43:36 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> >>It presumes that you don't do reconaissance in force because
> >>the point of that is to make sure your patrols can safely
> >>report back.  The ability to sit where you can jump at
> 
> >  Risk is a factor, and acceptable at various levels.
> 
> You miss the point.  Since the patrol ships can safely
> jump away, there is little risk.  Therefore there is
> not need for them to even be armed.

Clarify this: what is the point of an unarmed Patrol ship?

It takes at least 2 weeks for information obtained in a patrol to be
acted upon, by that time, the info is dated.

If a patrol sees someting it _can_ act upon, it should be armed so it
can do so.

Also, the infamous 10 dia. limit comes into play, or are you suggesting
deploying tanker ships with every Patrol vessel?

> >>any moment can obviate that need.  Assuming by
> >>anti-logisitics you mean stoping trade raiding
> 
> >  No, attacking enemy shipping when it's most needed - during the
> >initial rush of assault fleets and resupply operations expected
> >after the first clash of battlefleets. Not having such a capability
> >frees up enemy escort assets, and reduces friction in enemy planning.
> 
> But you don't prepare to attack enemy shipping right at the
> start of a war by spreading your ships evenly  over every world
> with trade in every system in the imperium (like you need to
> do for antipiracy action).  It's done by grouping into raiding
> fleets that need to be ready the instant war breaks out.

If you assume disrupting trade is an effective strategem, then you also
must assume that defending against that tactic is advisable.

The best defence against an external threat disrupting your trade *is*
spreading ships evenly throughout every world with trade, and/or regular
patrols of larger fleet elements thoughout every world with trade.

<snip> 

> >>this is to set up convoys which, by definition, means
> >>you don't have enough ships to patrol every system
> >>to protect every ship.
> 
> >  It means that convoys are the most efficient use of those
> >resources for point defense, as you mentioned on the topic of
> >fleet concentration. However, random interdiction efforts will
> >still play a great role in counter-guerre de course operations,
> >as they have throughout the modern era.
> 
> I'm sorry, I didn't follow.  How do you "randomly interdict"?

I believe the intent is to have forces patroling throughout many worlds,
jumping from world to world on a non-repeating, "random" schedule.

Would be pirates or raiders would not be able to predict beforehand
whether a target world would have a patrol in it or not.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:53:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Cost of piracy suppression

David P. Summers writes:
>Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:27:48 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>David, please break down for once and admit that piracy suppression IS
>>canonically one of the tasks of the Imperial Navy.
> 
>The Navy also has a military task and that ships being paid for for defense
>aren't a "free lunch" for stopping piracy.  Thus the Imperium will look at
>the cost for the extra ships (which yes, will be an line item in the Navy
>budget)

That sounds like a real hard fact. Ships for piracy suppression will be
listed separately from ships of the same class intended for raiding and
those separately from those intended for convoy duties.

OK, here I have to turn to other, more knowledgable people. I would have
thought that the line items would have been something like :"Item 367: X
hundred _Chrysanthemum_ Class destroyers; Item 368: Y hundred _Fer-de-Lance_
Class destroyers; Item 369: 24 _Kinunir_ Class frontier cruisers; etc."
Does the US Coast Guard really list their budget by so-and-so much to
prevent smuggling, so-and-so much to prevent piracy, so-and-so much to
rescue ships in distress, etc? What happens if an anti-smuggler ship
happen to help a ship in distress or vice versa? Does it mess up the
accounting something fierce?

David, I think the Imperial Navy budget will list the number of ships of
each class it has. Come the yearly appropiation battle the IN admiralty
will do everything they can to convince the fisc that they need them all
and that even if they don't then it would be wasteful to put those ships
in ordinary, because as soon as the ships are off the active list all
sorts of Vargr and Aslans and pirates will crop up and you'll have to
pay to reactivate them again. Eventually they will get an appropiation.
They will de- or recommision ships according to how well they did, and
then they will use whatever ships they have for the most immidiate
problems, regardless of what arguments they used during the appropiation
debate. So what if the Admiralty got the committee to agree to those
_Chrysanthemums_ by playing up the Zhodani scare. If the Zhodani are
quiscent this year and the pirates are not, then the local admiral
will use more assets against the pirates. The only question is whether
he would have enough available.

>Yes, and the cost of the Coast Guard vessels, and where they
>are stationed, is justified on the local need justifying the
>cost.  Places that don't have much shipping don't get vessels
>because the Navy "doesn't have anything else to do with them".

But that is because the US Navy does have something else to do with them.
Does the Imperial Navy have anything more important to do in peacetime than
preventing the loss of multimillion credit vessels? I doubt it. And I
most emphatically doubt that a pirate with a free hand (which he will
have if there is no patrol ship in the system) will not take the ship
along with the cargo if he can.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:12:17 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:24:17 -0800 (PST), you wrote:


>Ah, but they add a third constraint:
>
>3) For any pair of star systems A and B, there is at most one point
>   in system A at which it is possible to jump to a similarly unique
>   point in B.
>
>This means that to traverse a chain of systems, you have to jump in, then
>cross a *lot* (usually) of real space to reach the jump point to the next
>system.  This slows travel back down to Travellerish values, while still
>keeping communication fast (though not quite as fast as in my previous
>post, nearly so).
>
>This model of jump leads to the possibility of naval blockades, which are
>all but impossible in Traveller except in very special cases.  This has
>far-reaching effects on how navies and governments would be organized.

That is the way David Weber treats jump movement in his Honor
Harrington and Starfire books. Ships can jump instantly between
systems, but only at predetermined locations within the solar system.
Ships have to enter a system through the jump point, and then cross
the volume of the solar system to reach the next jump point to the
next solar system. Sometimes, though the jump points are not "open" on
both ends, but have to be found by jumping through them instead of
locating them from either end.

John Lansford

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2083
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2084



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Playing The Lottery
Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps
Re: Starship Trooper Review
GURPS Traveller news (via rec.games.frp.misc)
Re: Dune
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate,  matey!) [long]
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
THUDDD 7: Voting begins!
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
RE: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Aslan male and female script
Re: Dulinor and Strephon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:23:38 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]

I neglected to mention, in the original posting,  that I am not the author - it
was late, I was tired, etc...

 --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping
a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:10:00 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

In a message dated 97-11-11 02:36:05 EST, summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< As an aside.  This will not keep up.  Eventually a ship
 will end up tumbling end over end. >>


Okay, I can see this...how long will this take?  If it's a matter of a few
minutes, then I guess it would be no problem...but if it takes days (or more)
it seems it would still pose a rescue problem.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:13:41 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

In a message dated 97-11-11 02:43:10 EST, kenji@accessone.com writes:

<< And what about
 Archduke Bzrk? >>

Could'nt we get Ron Perlman?  I believe he's the actor who played the Beast
in the "Beauty and the Beast" TV show.

Ed (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:28:40 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Playing The Lottery

Extract from the Gambling Skill text in T4.1


	Compulsive Gambling. Some people feel they are destined to win and routinely
play at gambling games.

	To play the lottery (once per week)
	(6) >Impossible (6D)
	Pay Cr10 for a ticket. Roll 6 ones and win Cr250,000.
	Roll 5 ones to win Cr25,000. Roll 4 ones to win Cr2,500. Roll 3 ones to win
Cr250. Roll 2 ones to win Cr25. Gambling skill does not affect the lottery.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:36:21 -0600 (CST)
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: 1000 diameters and instant jumps

Thanks to those that responded to this. It gave me some very interesting
food for thought. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:33:53 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

>Sorry, Warganes was even sillier. Getting those graphics on an old
>*IMSAI*, with an acoustic modem? Yeah, right.

You're not talking about the same Wargames that I've seen I imagine?

If so, then you're wrong on one count.  The screen on his computer in his
room never has any high-tech graphics or anything.  In fact, the map on his
computer appears to be made up of low ASCII characters.  Sorry.

And if you don't believe me, you can sit down and watch it again yourself.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:40:13 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: GURPS Traveller news (via rec.games.frp.misc)

On 9 Nov 1997 20:10:01 -0700, David Crowe <jetman@primenet.com>
wrote:

>The SJG website (www.sjgame.com) sez:
>  November 9, 1997: GURPS Traveller Update
>
>   Just to let you know how things are going, author Loren Wiseman says
>   he'll have a first draft of the first GURPS Traveller book to us
>   sometime in the next six to eight weeks. We'll put it up for playtest
>   right away, of course.
>
>   After that, it's the usual process -- editing, re-writing, =re-editing,
>   art, art corrections, proofreading, more editing, and so on. Look for
>   the book in early spring of next year.
>   -- Scott Haring
>
>I think you need to be a subscriber to Illuminati Online to get access =to
>their playtest files though.=09
>=20
>Still, it seems to be making good time.
>
>How many dice will and FGMP-15 do, I wonder...
>
>--=20
>David "No Nickname" Crowe 	     http://www.primenet.com/~jetman=20
>
>You only read the manual when there's something you can't figure out. =
- -Skuld
>=20

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:52:18 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Dune

Jory M. Earl wrote:

>Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
>anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?

Argh! Don't remind me. Now *that* movie paid little attention to the
original author. What a travesty.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml



- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:55:26 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate,  matey!) [long]

>From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

>Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I 
>will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access and, of 
>course, free e-mail!
>
>

Thank you great omnipotent one!

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1997 18:51:38 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

Semo writes:
I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be more
flowery, flowing, and ornate.

I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
business-like and traditional.

- -----

Aslan male script is flowing and ornate.  It is not read silently, but
recited.  It is considered a form of art, and is included in decorations. 
Think arabic.

Female script is simpler, plainer, and easier to write.


Female script would be easy to do.  Male script would be hard to do as a
font, because the forms of letters change when put together, so that the
whole word looks better artistically.

Above information condensed from "Solomani & Aslan".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:00:10 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
> 
> >Erwin Fritz wrote:
> >> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now
> >>graven
> >> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> >
> >No.  Jack has to be Norris.
> >
> >"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."

"Truth... you can't handle the truth!"
(when asked about his elevation to Archduke)

> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)

I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
Lucan should act the fool.

> Margaret  = Meryl Streep.

I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.

> 
> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?

I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor

Zhodani Noble = Jeremy Irons

I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
pounds...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:09:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!

The first all-web-based THUDDD, the Heavy Fighter competition, awaits your
judgement.  Visit

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd7.html

to see the five (*very* interesting) entries, and use the form input
fields at the end of each entry to rate that entry.  You'll also need
to record your name and email address, using the two fields just below the
table of entry summaries.

This web-based scheme is experimental, and I welcome your feedback.  Would
people prefer that I also post the entries to the lists, as was done
previously?  Or is this method equally convenient?  How can I improve the
automated voting process?

Needless to say, version 1.0 of *anything* is a dicey proposition.  If
you run into any problems with the web-based voting system, please let me
know ASAP.

Thanks in advance for your votes!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:45:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

"Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
>anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?

Is there any truth to the rumour that 'Dune' was originally six to eight
hours long, and was cut and the ending changed at the studio's behest?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:34:25 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:
> 
> >Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
> >anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?
> 
> Is there any truth to the rumour that 'Dune' was originally six to eight
> hours long, and was cut and the ending changed at the studio's behest?
> 
> Dom
>
I think it was 6 hours..I have the tape copy of the long version, which
included some artist rendered scenes to go with 'historical' narrative.

- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:36:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: RE: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!

>----------
>From: Craig Berry
>To: BPRANKARD; Traveller Mailing List; ISBA Mailing List; Trav Tech
>Subject: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!
>Date: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 3:09PM

>FROM:    Craig Berry (SMTP:cberry@cinenet.net)

>TO:      Traveller Mailing List (SMTP:traveller@MPGN.COM)
>TO:      ISBA Mailing List (SMTP:isba@goldinc.com)
>TO:      Trav Tech (SMTP:trav-tech@qrc.com)

>SUBJECT: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 ---


>The first all-web-based THUDDD, the Heavy Fighter competition, awaits your
>judgement.  Visit

>  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd7.html

>to see the five (*very* interesting) entries, and use the form input
>fields at the end of each entry to rate that entry.  You'll also need
>to record your name and email address, using the two fields just below the
>table of entry summaries.

>This web-based scheme is experimental, and I welcome your feedback.  Would
>people prefer that I also post the entries to the lists, as was done
>previously?  Or is this method equally convenient?  How can I improve the
>automated voting process?

>Needless to say, version 1.0 of *anything* is a dicey proposition.  If
>you run into any problems with the web-based voting system, please let me
>know ASAP.

>Thanks in advance for your votes!

I just got off the site, having voted.  I am quite impressed by the fighter 
designs.  The ballot form was easy to use.  It beats having to run through 
all those e-mails comparing the designs etc...  A very good v1.0.  Keep up 
the good work!  One suggestion:  how about a field for commentary and 
criticisms.  I think others would agree when I say we designers like to see 
what people have to say about designs we come up with.  Helps us learn from 
mistakes, and (in the case of your Corp in ISBA) is good PR! :)

Well, speaking of commentary here's mine:

XTF-4 "Delta" Class Fighter by X-TEK

I could not vote on this one, as it was mine own design.  But I will comment 
on it nonetheless:

<Warning, Commander will now toot his own horn>
Possibly the only craft on the list not designed using Andy Atkins 
spreadsheet, as can be seen by the enormous "Engineering Data" on the page. 
 True, I entered this design a bit early, almost as soon as it was suggested 
I went to work on it immediately.  A lot of time went into this craft as 
every detail and specification was acknowledged.  The tactical decision to 
use a Quad MFD Standard turret laser battery was excellent.  Actually the 
battery was taken out of the SSDS weapon list, but proofed with FF&S2.  The 
advantages of a linked turret battery are evident.  Lasers have excellent 
range, and a turret allows the tactical advantage of a "flyby".  You can 
pass beyond your target and still lock weapons.  Speed was an important 
consideration.  I was aiming for at least 5g.  Not easy with such a dense 
craft.  The specification requirements were important in the design as well. 
 Extra fuel duration, Standard LS, and an ejection system are the result. 
 The major flaw I see with this design is that other entries have double the 
armour of the Delta.  Alas, the price you pay for added speed.

Gede Class Strike Fighter.
This one got high marks from me.  I had seen this on Andy's site when I got 
the spreadsheet, and wondered if he would enter it.  He did!  This puppy 
packs a Rapid Fire (800RoF?)Particle Gun as its main armament.  This was 
something the boys in X-TEK R&D were working on! You beat me to the punch! 
Also it mounts 8 missiles for added effect.  Nasty little weapon platform. 
 Mind you the speed is a bit low. 4g in space, and only 800kph in 
atmosphere.  Nonetheless a great design.

Gentle Breeze
Interesting design.  The laser is interesting as it is a nonstandard focal 
array optimized for distance.  The problem is it's only one weapon.  If that 
weapon is hit, then what?
The 1ton module is a good innovation, Extra fuel or ordinance is always a 
good thing.  Good Armour, but not so good structure.  Once the armour is 
gone, you're in trouble.

Tsiko
Great Yaskodray!  Yet another designer putting a "Micro-Mass Weapon" on a 
fighter.  In this case a 400Mj Meson Gun!(Yet another X-TEK project in the 
works)  This baby got high marks in the "Unusualness" category from me.  But 
as the designer stated, there are some flaws.  the most obvious is the 
speed, Only 2G.  The armour is rather low (I still debate that there should 
be fractional armour values in this case the SSDS armour would be about a 9 
in my book.)  Still, this is the fighter of choice for those "Gung Ho" 
hotshot fighter pilot types with a need to blast things to tiny bits! 
 Personally I still need speed! I noticed the Corporate advert. Munchausen 
Kinetics --> MunchKin.  Yep, pretty much sums it up! :)

The Dragon Hunter, er.. Drachen Jaeger( Ja, ich sprache eine kline deutch!)
Not bad, not bad at all.  A Spinal mount laser.  Nice touch.  As are the 
mission specific pods. Care was given to include meals for extended duration 
missions.  But the speed.  7g?  Is that constant acceleration?  If so the 
pilots will suffer from hi-g strain as the compensators can only deal with 
3g and the pilot up to 2g at TL-12.  Other than this a good design.

Firefly
This was pretty close to the standard fighter I remember from older Trav 
versions, although in a larger version.  2 forward firing Laser lances. 
about 5g acceleration (max possible at this TL w/o adverse effects IMNSHO). 
 This is where the similarities end.  Things that stood out where the PD 
lasers, the sandcaster and the Terrain following avionics.
But...
Is all the lift for this vehicle from the Airframe?  There are no CG lifters 
installed.  This could cause problems for emergency landing on airless 
worlds.

Many of you used Andy's Spreadsheet (he gets the X-TEK dog biscuit for Tech 
Support!) which created some wonderful designs.  I'm thinking of using this 
to create new vehicles, weapons, and to update my current line of ships.  I 
will prolly do what the CSC crew had been doing and post designs on a 
regular basis.  I would encourage others to do the same.

I now leave you to your regularly scheduled ListServer already in progress.

 --------------------------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:00:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> Very cool.  That solves that problem!  I was trying to get an idea really,
> however, of how the aslan would hold their pens and brushes with their
> strange hand format.

I've experimented with this.  If you use a flat instrument (instead of a
round one), you can hold it between your thumb and two fingers.  The thumb
is on one side of the instrument, and the two fingers, located above and
below the thumb, are on the other.  By using finger pressure, while keeping
the thumb stiff, I found I could write legible English using a felt-tip
pen (albeit about twice as large as I normally write).  I assume Aslan
pens and brushes are shaped with appropriate indentations to make holding
it correctly even easier.

> If my meager knowledge of Aslan physiology is correct,

It is.

> Question:  Is there an Aslan dictionary around?  I'd like to base certain
> Aslan letters on "things", in much the way that "A" is believed to come from
> the head of an ox.

Funny you should ask that.  Here's some more from the article.  I assume
that the female script would use individual letters for each sound
(excepting EA, OA, OU, UA, and UI), while the brush script would use a
single character for each word.


  Pronounciation: Most Humans consider Trokh difficult to pronounce,
  particularly the vowel sounds.  For a native speaker, the language paces
  the speaker's breathing with its rythms.  Aslan pronounce some sounds
  when inhaling, and others by exhalation, resulting in a fast and flowing
  language.  To Galanglic speakers, Trokh sentances sound like one impossibly
  long word, without a single pause.

  Trokh
  Sound   Approximate Galanglic Equivalent
  A       like the "o" in "lock"
  AI      like the "i" in "kite"
  AO      like the "ao" in the Chinese "Mao"*
  AU      like the "ou" in "house"
  E       like the "e" in "get"
  EA      say the "e" and "a" sounds+
  EI      like the "a" in "bay"
  F       like the "wh" in "whew"
  FT      like the "ft" in "rift"
  I       like the "i" in "kit"
  IY      like the "ee" in "feet"
  H       like the "h" in "hit"
  HF      like the "hf" in "hfang"*
  HK      like the "hk" in "hkang"*
  HL      like the "hl" in "hlang"*
  HR      like the "hr" in "hrang"*
  HT      like the "ght" in "height"
  HW      like the "wh" in "what"
  K       like the "k" in "kite"
  KH      like the "ch" in the Scottish "loch"*
  KHT     like the "cht" in the German "nachte"*
  KT      like the "ked" in "backed"
  L       like the "l" in "like"
  LR      like the "llr" in "allright"
  O       like the "o" in "gone"
  OA      say the "o" and "a" sounds+
  OI      like the "oi" in "noise"
  OU      say the "o" and "u" sounds+
  R       like the "r" in "run"
  RL      like the "rl" in "earl"
  S       like the "s" in "sun"
  ST      like the "st" in "stop"
  T       like the "t" in "ton"
  TL      like the "tl" in the Aztec "tlaloc"*
  TR      like the "tr" in "trip"
  U       like the "u" in "lute"
  UA      say the "u" and "a" sounds+
  UI      say the "u" and "i" sounds+
  W       like the "w" in "win"
  YA      like the "ya" in "yard"
  YU      like the "eu" in "feud"
  '       glottal stop

  * The pronounciation for these sounds are only approximations; the sound
    does not appear in Galanglic, and may be difficult to say correctly.
  + these vowel sounds are pronounced the same as the two letters separately,
    but very close together.


  Glossary
  Aisai: "dewclaw"; a 6cm, razor-sharp claw located at the base of the thumb.
  Aisaiaokheh: "death"; a duel to the death, refers to coup-de-grace by aisai.
  Ahfa: "shrine"; a collection of objects used as a focus for meditation.
  Ahiry: "pride"; a group of several ekho (families).
  Aokhaor: "spirit of strength"; An individual's honor or balance.
  Areiaao: "sprint"; 8 uealaao, 16 standard minutes.
  Auhahaokhaor: "brotherhoods of honor"; a Fteirle male institution.
  Ayloi: "knife"; a knife or artificial dewclaw used by non-Fteirle.
  Eakhau: "day"; 16 tekhaao, 36 standard hours.
  Earleatrais: "referee"; mediator who arbitrates duels and disputes.
  Ei'orile: "familiarity"; a mild form of disrespect.
  Ekhiy: "wife"; a married female.
  Ekho: "family"; 2 to 12 indviduals lead by a tao'.
  Ftahea: "year"; 212.2 eakhau, 320 standard days.
  Fteirle: "the people"; anyone subscribing to the Aslan philosophy and culture.
  Hisol'i "Humans"; a corruption of "Humans of Sol".
  Huiha: "clan"; a group of several ahiry (prides).
  Huihako: "clan-leader"; the leader of a hiuha.
  I'aheako: "Ancestral Worlds"; Fteirle name for the Dark Nebula sector.
  Kafyelrah: "impoliteness"; a moderate social error.
  Kahiytuafto: "discourtesy"; a deliberate insult, and grounds for a duel.
  Kawaikuhai: "unfeminine"; a female who studies or practises male skills.
  Khiyrlafakh: "effeminate"; a male who studies or practises female skills.
  Khtarowearyu: "business vows"; the vows of clan-independence.
  Khtauaao: "period"; 64 areiaao, 17 standard minutes.
  Ko: "himself"; the leader of an Huiha, the clan personified.
  Ktyuikeasiyyorl: "Rules Under Which We Die"; Fteirle duelling code.
  Kuikhtew: "first blood"; a duel fought to first blood.
  Kusyu: the Fteirle homeworld, Kusyu/I'aheako 1919.
  Roueihteaa: "submission"; a duel or war fought to surrender or a set goal.
  Saiiysa: "duel-assasin"; a honorable assasin in the Fteirle tradition.
  Tafohti: the largest continent of Kusyu.
  Tao': "patriarch"; a married male, leader of an Ekho.
  Tekhaao: "hour"; 8 khtauaao, 137 standard minutes.
  Tlaukhu: "The 29"; the council of the 29 most powerful clans.
  Trikhta: "memory-boxes", the individual objects in the ahfa.
  Trokh: "belly talk"; the language of the Fteirle.
  Uealaao: "second"; 1.988 standard secons.
  Yaeatyeao: "hall of ancestors"; the family burial grove and crypt.
  Yerlik: "clan war"; a formal, referee-monitored battle or war.
  Yerlikhelu: "battle plains"; the combat zone for a yerlik.

  [Note: this glossary isn't complete - the article contains many more words
   and definitions in the text that aren't listed above]


  Word Generation

  Learning the entire Trokh language, vocabulary, and grammar is far too
  difficult for most Traveller players (and writers!).  However, a random
  procedure which generates Trokh-sounding words is available and easy to
  use.  Simply generate a word and assign the desired meaning to it.  Since
  Trokh doesn't translate well to Galanlic, meanings can vary considerably
  without causing problems.

  Trokh words are composed of syllables, just like Galanglic.  There are
  four types: those that are a vowel alone (V), syllables beginning with a
  consonant (CV), ones that end with a consonant (VC), and those that both
  begin and end with a consonant (CVC).

  A few rules govern how sylables are grouped together.  No sylable ending
  with a consonant can be followed by a syllable beginning with a consonant.
  A single letter vowel cannot be followed by the same single letter vowel,
  although dipthongs (multple letter vowels) may follow one another.

  Trokh words can be nearly any length, from formal names with dozens of
  sylables to nicknames with two or three.  Select a length for the word, or
  simply roll 1D6.  For each syllable, determine the type from the table.
  Use the basic table for the first syllable, or if the previous syllable
  ended in a vowel; otherwise use the alternate table.  For each consonant
  and vowel determine the individual sound from the appropriate column.

  
  D66     Basic Syllable
  11-31   V
  32-44   CV
  45-56   VC
  61-66   CVC
  
  D66     Alternate Syllable
  11-33   V
  34-66   VC
  
  D666    Initial Consonant
  111-126 F
  131-144 FT
  145-214 H
  215-223 HF
  224-243 HK
  244-255 HL
  256-266 HR
  311-326 HT
  331-335 HW
  336-364 K
  365-431 KH
  432-446 KHT
  451-464 KT
  465-513 L
  514-524 R
  525-542 S
  543-553 ST
  554-625 T
  626-634 TL
  635-643 TR
  644-666 W
  
  D666    Vowel
  111-215 A
  216-234 AI
  235-246 AO
  251-254 AU
  255-336 E
  341-416 EA
  421-441 EI
  442-465 I
  466-525 IY
  526-541 O
  542-545 OA
  546-561 OI
  562-566 OU
  611-614 U
  615-622 UA
  623-626 AI
  631-642 YA
  643-654 YE
  655-662 YO
  663-666 YU
  
  D666    Final Consonant
  111-224 H
  225-254 KH
  255-346 L
  351-412 LR
  413-451 R
  452-521 RL
  522-561 S
  562-644 W
  645-666 '



wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:19:30 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Aslan male and female script

Regarding Aslan script, there _is_ a canonical source, although it'll need
further development. Take a look at 'Trokh: Language of the Warriors' in
The Travellers' Digest #17.

Among other points, it outlines the _basic_ principles of yoyeaokhtef (male
script) and tleftuawaoirlouheei (female script), with a few examples. There
are a couple of (visual/graphic) examples of yoyeaokhtef and written,
printed and mathematical tleftuawaoirlouheei. Not much to begin with, but
it gives you a place to start.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:25:22 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> 
> Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
> 
> >Erwin Fritz wrote:
> >> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now
> >>graven
> >> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> >
> >No.  Jack has to be Norris.
> >
> >"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."
> 
> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)

Or Christopher Walken, evil, _twisted_, nasty and insane...

> Margaret  = Meryl Streep.
> 
> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?

Hmmm...it's a stretch, but Donald Sutherland, playing straighter than he
usually does, would work for me. He can certainly pull off the
world-weariness that must surely affect Strephon by the end of the
Rebellion.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2084
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2085



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Dune
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]Subject: Re: Review:  Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:42:41 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>
>I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>Lucan should act the fool.

I'm leaning towards Malkovich -- Curry couldn't menace a Boy Scout.  Or how
about Malcolm McDowell?  "Come, droogies, let us all itty Core-wards..."


>> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
>
>I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor

Tragic overactor, IMHO <G>.  Ian Holm _is_ appealing.  Gravitas, with an
atmosphere of ineffectuality.  Slightly dithery gravitas.  Anthony Hopkins,
maybe?

>Zhodani Noble = Jeremy Irons

Bingo!  RuPaul as his intendant secretary.  (Gotta be tall, right?)

>I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
>more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
>pounds...

DeNiro!  DeNiro!

"Who are you elevating to Archduke?  Who?  Huh?  Who you elevating?  Must
be me -- I don't see anyone else here."

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:42:47 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dune

Christopher Griffen wrote:

>Jory M. Earl wrote:
>
>>Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
>>anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?
>
>Argh! Don't remind me. Now *that* movie paid little attention to the
>original author. What a travesty.

That's what I thought, until I read a review of it in the video release
section of the local "alternative" paper here in Seattle, _The Stranger_ --
don't have the writer's name, unfortunately, but I'll post it anyway:

>"David Lynch's film adaptation of the Frank Herbert book is mandatory viewing,
>as this simple test will prove:  Does this film feature Kyle MacLachlan and
>Sean Young in latex fetish-wear riding a giant worm jamming to Toto?  Yes!
>Are there pug dogs?  Yes!  Does Captain Picard have long greasy hair and
>fight with a force field that comes out of his belt buckle?  Yes!  Does
>Sting's character wear a gold-winged Speedo and enjoy knife-fighting and
>extreme dermatology?  Yes!  One last question:  Spice, the Sandworms -- is
>there a connection?  Yes!"

On second thought, it was a GREAT film.  I can't wait till I'm able to
regard _Starship Troopers_ in the same light.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:13:04 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

At 09:46 AM 11/11/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:
>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
>> The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman
>
>Excellent!
>
>> Director - Peter Jackson
>>
>> Any other ideas?
>
>Let's get someone to direct that is really familiar with the material.  Hmm.
>Let me think...
>
>Oh yea, I know someone.  His name is Kenneth Bearden.
>
>I here he's new on the scene--but passionate and determined.
>
>Yes, he'd be a good choice.
>
>Kenneth.
>
>

Considering what Verhoven did to Starship Troopers; this is not a bad idea.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:54:16 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:11:03 +0000, Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
>>As an aside.  This will not keep up.  Eventually a ship
>>will end up tumbling end over end.

>	What would cause a ship, which is acted upon by
>	no outside force, to begin tumbling? If it did tumble,
>	why would it tumble end-over-end?

OK, first of all, let me appolgize for loose nomenclature.
When I say "tumble" all I mean is that it is not rotating
about the long axis.  As to why, I can't say a really
remember (it's been a long time)....

Eventally all real world spinning objects will end up
spinning about a certain axis.  If I remember right, its
the one that has the most angular inertia, for a long
object this is spinning in an "end to end tumble" (though
this wouldn't explain why a football ends up spinning on it's
nose).  How this happens I'm not sure, except that it involves
small pertubations (a "perfect" object wouldn't, presumably,
do this).

Maybe someone else can give more detail.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:30:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote: 

>Well here's my list:

<snip>

   And here's mine:

Emperor Strephon - Charlton Heston (a little old but...)
Empress Iolanthe - Bebe Neuwirth (played Lilith on "Cheers")
Princess Iphegenia - Winona Rider (OK, I'm dreaming)
The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman (ditto...typecasting?)
Archduke Dulinor - David Groh (looks *exactly* like Dulinor)
Emperor Lucan - William Atherton (plays an a__hole better than most anyone
I've ever seen--besides among his screen credits is the movie "Virus")
Duchess Margaret - Glenn Close
Archduke Norris - Tom Selleck
Archduke Brzk - Michael J. Fox (Mr. Dorn is *way* too tall)
Archduke Ishuggi of Vland - Ian McDiarmid (played the Emperor in "Return of
the Jedi")
Archduke Craig - David Duchovny (better for this part)
Lt Trace Windhock - Christian Slater
Coordinator of SolSec - William Sadler (rogue officer in "Die Hard 2")
Margaret's evil sidekick - John Lithgow (ditto)
Honourable admiral who Lucan executes in the 1st scene - Dave Nilsen (CT
fans would pay extra at the theatre just to get to see this--I on the other
hand think he's earned at least this bit part)
Archduke Norris's sidekick - Patrick Stewart (he's bald and he's played gay...)
Walk on role as Imperial admiral #1 - Marc Miller
Walk on role as Imperial admiral #2 - Frank Chadwick
Walk on role as Imperial admiral #3 - Loren Wiseman

Director - Richard Marquand (directed "Return of the Jedi") or perhaps
Steven Spielberg (I'd prefer the latter)

Projected budget: 500 million US

Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent.

Regards,

Harold
(coming to you from my new additional address)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:43:20 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord

Douglas, this is brilliant. May a make a few more suggestions:

When I send underlings to capture the heroes I will ensure that they have
weapons and armor sufficient to overcome the armament the heroes employ. I
will be sure to send at least three underlings for every hero, and instruct
them to retreat and not fight to the last man if suddenly outmatched by a
Secret Weapon.

I will instruct underlings to report to me if they see their commanding
officer disobeying orders, letting prisoners go, or repeating like an echo
whatever a hero says.

If the hero is not in his home/office/clubhouse when my minions break in,
they are to wait there for his return and not make obvious signs of their
presence.

I will only kill underlings who lie to me and hide their failures. Underlings
who admit their failures will be reassigned to less demanding duties.

I will not repeat pet phrases or rhymes from my violent younger days to any
prisoners or visitors, in case this is the only memory said persons have of
their parents' killer.

Any critical mechanism such as self-destruct, life support, or protective
force fields will be controlled through multiple keyed interlocks and not a
simple on/off switch.

I will construct my secret base of fire resistant materials and store all
my drums of explosives in locked isolated storerooms.

I will design my Death Robots in a non-humanoid form so heroes cannot use
their equipment and weaponry.

Guards will be provided with bunk rooms outside the cell blocks in case
they need to take a nap.

I will store any alien artifacts, mystic portals, or doomsday weapons in
secure laboratories and not my control room.

I will not explain my master plan to an army of underlings until the plan
has already been completed successfully.

When double-crossing a dupe or hireling I will not say "I lied" until after
that person is dead.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:58:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:29:44 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>Clarify this: what is the point of an unarmed Patrol ship?

To report enemy action.

>It takes at least 2 weeks for information obtained in a patrol to be
>acted upon, by that time, the info is dated.

Well, it can be used in 1 week to make sure that ships that
can't take on the enemy forces.  But, more to the point,
the fact is that the only way to stop an enemy fleet from
rampaiging through your Empire is to be able to predict
where they are going.  Thus, regardless of the time
delay, being able to gather the data and use it
to predict enemy action is going to be crucial
to military success (and is what sperates the
admirals that you hear about in history from the
rest).

>Also, the infamous 10 dia. limit comes into play, or are you suggesting
>deploying tanker ships with every Patrol vessel?

No.  They fuel up before they go on patrol.  Maneveuver
and life support take so much less fuel that a scout
can opperate for considerable time before it looses
the ability to jump.

>If you assume disrupting trade is an effective strategem, then you also
>must assume that defending against that tactic is advisable.

And you do that at the main worlds.  If you distribute your
forces so you can stop _every_ raiding force at _every_
system, you aren't going to be in trouble when the
main invasion fleet comes through.

>The best defence against an external threat disrupting your trade *is*
>spreading ships evenly throughout every world with trade, and/or regular
>patrols of larger fleet elements thoughout every world with trade.

Well, no.  First of all, you only need to worry about areas
near the frontier.  Second of all, putting those kind
of forces in every system is just a waste since 90%
of them will just sit there and never engage in battle.

>> I'm sorry, I didn't follow.  How do you "randomly interdict"?
>
>I believe the intent is to have forces patroling throughout many worlds,
>jumping from world to world on a non-repeating, "random" schedule.
>
>Would be pirates or raiders would not be able to predict beforehand
>whether a target world would have a patrol in it or not.

No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
where the random patrols are not.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:26:38 PST
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]Subject: Re: Review:  Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
 shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) sent:



>In mail you write:

>>  Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while

>I keep hearing people say this, and I can never figure out where they
>get it from?

>Please explain why you think that the society in Starship Troopers (the
>book) is fascist?

Didn't Rico's Dad get publicly whipped for speaking out against the Government? -
sounds pretty fascist to me. I could be mistaken, It has been a long time since I
read the book.

Eamon

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2085
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 12 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2086



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
RE: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!
Re: Starship Troopers Review
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Norris (Was:Re: Dulinor and Strephon)
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Question re: Gram's UPP
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Movies
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)
Re: Question re: Gram's UPP
RE: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:58:57 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>  Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while
>
>I keep hearing people say this, and I can never figure out where they
>get it from?
>
>Please explain why you think that the society in Starship Troopers 9the
>book) is fascist?


	Limited franchise just for starters.  Substitute "Party Member" for
"Veteran" and things get a little spooky.  The history of ST Earth after
the collapse of the democracies, with the veterans coming home and
restoring order sounds a lot like the Freikorps.  And the reliance on swift
capital punishment is also a classic feature of fascism.  Taxation without
representation.  That sort of thing.

	Think about how an S.S. Mann would describe life in Nazi Germany.
The trains run on time, everything is newly prosperous after the post-WWI
chaos, the Party is running everything in an orderly fashion, strict law
and order (including capital punishment) is making Germany a safer place,
and everything is just so peachy keen that he and his buddies are willing
to train real hard, be incredibly well-disciplined and devoted to duty, and
put their lives on the line to defend their Fatherland and Race.  And his
face would be glowing and his eyes moist as he said it.  He'd be in total
earnest, probably absolutely inspirational if he were a good public
speaker, and the really scary evil stuff would just be glossed over or said
so matter-of-factly that you'd probably do a triple-take ("was he serious
about that bit about eliminating social parasitism WITH NERVE GAS?").

	Sounds awfully like Johnny Rico, doesn't it :)?

	However, IMHO, it's not classic fascism per se; just way, way, way
too authoritarian for my tastes.  What really gets me is that the political
system described in ST the book is largely contrary to the basic political
ideals the U.S.A. was founded on; taxation without representation, absence
of due process, and so forth.  Heinlein must have known this, and from what
I understand of his politics, probably would have found this system
somewhat reprehensible.  This is why I think that it was a sort of critical
thinking test for his readers...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:51:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: RE: THUDDD 7: Voting begins!

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:

> I just got off the site, having voted.  I am quite impressed by the fighter 
> designs.  The ballot form was easy to use.  It beats having to run through 
> all those e-mails comparing the designs etc...  A very good v1.0.  Keep up 
> the good work!

Thanks!  I've been holding my breath waiting for "the damn thing crashed
my browser and kicked my dog!" bug reports, but so far feedback is
uniformly positive.  Should've done this long ago...

> One suggestion:  how about a field for commentary and 
> criticisms.  I think others would agree when I say we designers like to see 
> what people have to say about designs we come up with.  Helps us learn from 
> mistakes, and (in the case of your Corp in ISBA) is good PR! :)

Already on my to-do list for THUDDD 8...just didn't have time to think it
through sufficiently this time.

> Well, speaking of commentary here's mine:
[megasnip]

Very good comments.  Thanks for the MCr 0.02...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:33:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Review

At 01:13 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-11 02:43:10 EST, kenji@accessone.com writes:
>
><< And what about
> Archduke Bzrk? >>
>
>Could'nt we get Ron Perlman?  I believe he's the actor who played the Beast
>in the "Beauty and the Beast" TV show.

How about Roddy McDowell, Ron Perlman is to big, but think of Roddy in a
wolfs outfit rather then a Chimp (Planet of the Apes).

Dave Biggs --------------------------->dbiggs@magicnet.net
"Sauron" on FIBS, NOBS, GG, and IBS
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Hinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:45:09 -0500
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Remember Robert Duval as Stalin?  He could be a great Norris with the same
makeup.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon
> Date: 11 nov. 1997 15:00
> 
> SD Mooney wrote:
> > 
> > Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
> > 
> > >Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > >> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is
now
> > >>graven
> > >> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> > >
> > >No.  Jack has to be Norris.
> > >
> > >"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."
> 
> "Truth... you can't handle the truth!"
> (when asked about his elevation to Archduke)
> 
> > Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
> 
> I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> Lucan should act the fool.
> 
> > Margaret  = Meryl Streep.
> 
> I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.
> 
> > 
> > We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
> 
> I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor
> 
> Zhodani Noble = Jeremy Irons
> 
> I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
> more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
> pounds...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:07:56 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Norris (Was:Re: Dulinor and Strephon)

With all the votes for Al Pacino and Jack Nicholson for Norris, I'd like to
nominate the OBVIOUS choice:

Brian Blessed!
Brian Blessed!!!!
Brian Blessed!!!!!!!!

IMHO only, of course, but I cannot imagine anyone else for the role!
Especially if Kenny Branagh gets to play Strephon.

Ooooh. How about Rowan Atkinson in his most loathsome Blackadder I form as
Lucan! (Just kidding...)

John Kovalic


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:04:37 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

At 06:30 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Projected budget: 500 million US
>
>Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent.

What, with all those names in this epic? Hollywood would love it, now
condense the idea into a one page precis and present the script to Hollywood.
Emphasis that the game comes with a fan base, and that there is already
merchandise available,( I bet all of us would start collecting the
traveller action figures, )

Now all we need is a script..

ohh... and point out that there is a large chance for sequels....



Harry


ps. I think the honourable admiral who gets killed would be better for Marc
Miller, it sounds like a part with more substance, and a more memorable
character. The rest can be walk ons.

For that matter, we could have the TML members do the crowd scenes

Panic in the Thone room, rioting in the streets, burning of effigies etc.

That way if we find out that they are doing what they did to Starship
Troopers we could  'flame'  them in person  :)

pps.  I can't wait to see Starship Troopers, I haven't had a good laugh in
ages.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:25:03 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Question re: Gram's UPP

I was looking over Gram's UPP while working on a little Sword Wolrds
project, and found something odd. It's listed in the MT Imperial
Encyclopedia as stellar type "F2 D M2 D." This would seem to indicate a
binary system of F & M sequence subdwarves, neither of which have habitable
planet zones.

Am I reading it wrong or is this a typo ?

Another small question that's peobably lurking in the rules somewhere...
what's a Population Multiplier (first of the three digits just prior to the
allegiance code.

Thanx,
Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:18:12 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Funny you should ask that.  Here's some more from the article.  I assume
>that the female script would use individual letters for each sound
>(excepting EA, OA, OU, UA, and UI), while the brush script would use a
>single character for each word.

<hiss> Join us, Derek... <hiss> Come to the TravLang list... <hiss>  It is
your destiny... <hiss>
>
>  Pronounciation: Most Humans consider Trokh difficult to pronounce,
>  particularly the vowel sounds.  For a native speaker, the language paces
>  the speaker's breathing with its rythms.  Aslan pronounce some sounds
>  when inhaling, and others by exhalation, resulting in a fast and flowing
>  language.  To Galanglic speakers, Trokh sentances sound like one impossibly
>  long word, without a single pause.

The human articulatory apparatus will also give seriously different
acoustic results for the "same" sound produced with an ingressive pulmonic
airflow -- perhaps Aslan physiology is different?

Are certain of the sounds listed below always produced with ingressive or
always with egressive airflow?  Or is it simply a positional thing,
depending on whether the speaker's lungs need air in or out at any given
point in the utterance?

>  Trokh
>  Sound   Approximate Galanglic Equivalent
>  A       like the "o" in "lock"
>  AI      like the "i" in "kite"
>  AO      like the "ao" in the Chinese "Mao"*
>  AU      like the "ou" in "house"

Quibble:  At least in my dialect of English, the "ou" of "house" isn't
distinguishable from the Putonghua or Beijing pronunciations of "Mao".

[snip]

>  TL      like the "tl" in the Aztec "tlaloc"*

Quibble: Maybe make that "Nahuatl"? -- "Aztec" is a political designation,
not a linguistic one.

[big snip]

>  Learning the entire Trokh language, vocabulary, and grammar is far too
>  difficult for most Traveller players (and writers!).  However, a random

Sounds almost like a DARE, Mr. Wildstar... <G>

Publish! Publish!  And we _need_ this sort of creativity over on TravLang.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:37:03 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

Yes,
And you should go out and get the directors' cut
video and watch it

Yes, yes, do that. 
And the his minds blew up, Sir. I have no
idea what happened.

Good Book
Weird Movies
Good Uniforms

Thanks
Pat


- ----------
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition
> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 1:45 PM
> 
> 
> "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:
> 
> >Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
> >anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?
> 
> Is there any truth to the rumour that 'Dune' was originally six to eight
> hours long, and was cut and the ending changed at the studio's behest?
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
> "Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
>    "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:27:25 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers & Dom's Petition

>Is there any truth to the rumour that 'Dune' was originally six to eight
>hours long, and was cut and the ending changed at the studio's behest?

I think it was in the 4 to 6 hour range.  4 sounds right I believe.  Awhile
ago, they played it on a local station and I think my brother might have
taped it.  My friend thinks it may be out (in long form) on videotape as a
relatively recent release.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:14:01 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0700
it was ventured (insignificantly):
>
>Dom Mooney wrote:
>
>>I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
>>(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
>>rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
>>or should that be 'flaming list'.
>>
>>Any objections?
>
>Better than flame wars about the TL of the RoM, I guess. <g>
>


Well, I'm surprised that you don't know the *real* meaning of flame
wars, but then, you couldn't see the RoM issue either. :)

Try tail of genji, maybe that'll help.

   LOL :)

J.P. and I always say, "Rule 86: you play ball with us and we ram the
ball up your a**." :)   {ObTrav: good tactic for NPCs to take from time
to time.}

And, since that makes me think of JP wisdom he wanted me to post, he
suggested I needn't raise the TML (the other one) flag again--time takes
care of _everything_.  More LOL.


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:40:04 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Movies

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, John Watts wrote:

>> Douglas Berry writes:
>> 
>> >Tie fighters look like WWII fighters?  Not to me :).  And all this
>> >stuff designed to make some yutz whose education was seriously croggled
>> >by a fundamentalist-run school board relate to the film has the problem
of
>> >turning many of us who know how ships passing in vacuum are supposed to
>> >sound right off.
>> 
>> Well, I should have said move like WWII fighters.  
>
>Well, that's because they DO move like WWII fighters, Zeroes and Hellcats,
>to be exact. Lucas used footage from the movies "Midway" and "Tora, Tora,
>Tora", and real WWII footage to program the model and camera transport for
>the Death Star scenes in Star Wars.

The attack on the Death star is reminiscent of certain scenes from The
Bridges at Toko Ri. And I suggest you rent a film called The Dam Busters. It
has some _very_ familiar dialogue as the specially-modified Lancs are moving
towards the dam. 

> I also think this illustrates the point, though. Star Wars didn't strike
> me as a Bad SF movie despite its technical flaws, because it was so damn
> good...me I think I stopped breathing when the Imperial destroyer came on
> to the scene, chasing the rebel ship, and didn't start again until the
> credits started rolling.

I came within a hair's breadth of strangling a pair of 16-year-olds when I
went to see the re-release of Star Wars. They thought they were at a MST3K
festival, and were laughing at the text scrolling up the screen. Fortunately,
they fell into a stunned and respectful silence at the appearance of the
Imperial destroyer...

Fortunately for me, that is...murder is a felony in Illinois. : )

Loren (haven't seen Starship Troopers yet, but going this week) Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:33:48 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

At 02:00 PM 11/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>
>I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>Lucan should act the fool.

Ack!  Too much Prednisone and salsa!  I can't resist!

The Imperial Horror Picture Show

<ducks near-c rocks coming from all directions...>
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:39:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord

At 03:43 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote:

>Douglas, this is brilliant. May a make a few more suggestions:

Second that.

>I will not explain my master plan to an army of underlings until the plan
>has already been completed successfully.

Anybody else remember the DC limited series "The Watchmen"?  near the end,
the villian is explaining his plot to prevent WWIII to the two heros who
have found him.  When one of the heros threatens to stop him, the villian
calmly replies

"Do you think I would explain any of this if you had the slightest chance
of stopping it?  I did it twenty-three minutes ago."

Chilling moment.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:59:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 01:26 AM 11/12/97 PST, Eamon wrote:
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) sent:

>>In mail you write:

>>Please explain why you think that the society in Starship Troopers (the
>>book) is fascist?

>Didn't Rico's Dad get publicly whipped for speaking out against the 
>Government? -sounds pretty fascist to me. I could be mistaken, It has been a 
>long time since I read the book.

No, the only floggings mentioned were one that Juan snuck out to watch as a
child (which was canceled), and the two in basic.  Absolutely nothing was
ever said about a lack of freedom of speech.

In short, you can live your life quite happily and successfully without
having the vote, but to get the franchise (and the reserved jobs) you have
to give something.. a couple of years of your life to service.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:50:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (some indirect spoilers)

At 08:32 AM 11/11/97 -0600, you wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>>comment on it, I went through it!] The last word I had was that the
>>>basic trainees only have to get a 150 (of 300) on their PT test (while
>>>180 is passing in line units!).

>>What MOS is this for?  I can see a finance comptroller clerk getting
>>away with a 150PT, but anybody facing more danger than monitor EM and
>>paper cuts has got to be in better shape than that!

>This is for basic training.  Wannabe soldiers aren't assigned an MOS
>until the graduate basic.  So this is for all trainees coming out of
>Fort Leonard Wood.  Nothing is quite so confidence building as seeing
>trainees hobble thru the PX in BDUs and tennis shoes.  <misty eyed
>recollection mode on> When I was going through training we ran in
>combat boots! </misty ...>

Ah.  As a combat-arms type I went through everything at Ft. Benning in one
13-week buzzsaw.  We ran PT in running shoes, did everything else in LPCs.

>>My first FTX was the last one at Ft. benning to use wax bullets.  Ouch.

>Probably better than the laser MILES stuff.  Teach you to duck when
>you should!  That buzzer was annoying, though.

The price for getting keyed back to life was usually in the range of 100
push-ups in full gear.  Full MOPP gear if you had been *real* stupid.  Plus
having to run the excercise again.  We treated it with great seriousness.

My 1SG at the 197th Inf Bde had a theory.  "Hell is full of Motor Pools.
If you die in an excercise, you will go to Hell."  This meant you spent the
next week pulling guard mount.

I would have prefered the bruises.
- --

+--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net x
x   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+
|          Embrace Fascism.          x
x       The uniforms look cool       |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:05:53 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Question re: Gram's UPP

At 07:25 PM 11/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I was looking over Gram's UPP while working on a little Sword Wolrds
>project, and found something odd. It's listed in the MT Imperial
>Encyclopedia as stellar type "F2 D M2 D." This would seem to indicate a
>binary system of F & M sequence subdwarves, neither of which have habitable
>planet zones.

Just change it to something nicer.  The original GDW data was full of these
lovely little systems that no amount of handwaving could deal with.  My
favorite was the Ag world orbiting a M9v.  What were they growing? Iceburg
Lettuce?

>Another small question that's peobably lurking in the rules somewhere...
>what's a Population Multiplier (first of the three digits just prior to the
>allegiance code.

The actual didget that the Pop code is the multiple of.  Example: Earth is
Pop 9, Pop multiplier 5.  Population is around 5,000,000,000 people.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:24:38 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

> What, with all those names in this epic? Hollywood would love it, now
> condense the idea into a one page precis and present the script to Hollywood.
> Emphasis that the game comes with a fan base, and that there is already
> merchandise available,( I bet all of us would start collecting the
> traveller action figures, )
> 
> Now all we need is a script..
> 
> ohh... and point out that there is a large chance for sequels....
> 

and pre-quels...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:16:06 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:54:25 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>But, again, they need to grouped into squadrons that can survive forays
>>into enemy space.

>They need to be grouped in such squadrons when they set off for enemy space,
>yes. They don't need it to guard a planet from pirates.

Yeah, but unless you want to wait weeks to months after the
fighting starts for them to collect up, you need to have them
grouped up in peacetime.

>>Additionally, they need to be stationed near the border.

>Canonically the regular fleets of the Imperial Navy only use 14% of the
>military budget.

Yeah, but it is the forces near the frontier that are going
to contain units designated for attacking shipping in
enemy space.

>>Also, if you group armed merchants into convoys, their own firepower can
>>be a significant assistance to the Naval vessels).

>Not if they are up against proper warships. A merchant will have a
>computer with as low a factor as he can get away with (ie. capable of
>handling his maximum jump, but no more).

Not if he is armed.  (Esp. if the Imperium plans on using him
for wartime supply and encourages hime).

>A raider force supposedly consists of one or two cruisers plus an
>undefined number of lesser ships. If it is the size of a traditional
>squadron then there will be about 8 lesser ships of destroyer size.
>Pirates, if they exist, are armed merchantmen or perhaps Corsairs. In
>short: you don't need nearly as many ships to protect against pirates
>as you need to protect against raiders.

Well, this is debatable.  You don't need as many ships to protect
one spot.  But if you are going to stop piracy you have to protect
every world with trade in every system.  For convoys you only
need to protect the supply routes through the high pop world.

>And, btw. you don't need to protect merchants everywhere all the time.
>If a system is such a backwater that only one ship per year goes there,
>you only need to protect it there once a year.

[deletions]

>Granted, not many systems are quite that much of a backwater, but there
>are a number of them.

I would say there are very few.  Even most low pop worlds have
mining (and such) that will produce more than one ship/year.
If you add in that most worlds are one the way to somplace
(and ships with different jump ratings will stop different
places), there are, IMO, very few world that only get 1 ship
per year (A good guess would be jus the ones with numbers
instead of names).

>>Yes, but again, you have the problem that if you disperse these ships then
>>you have vulnerable shipping for weeks or months after the start of
>>hostilities while word gets out to them and they can form up.

>Vulnerable for a short while, yes.

It would take months to collect them from all over the
Spinward Marches.  I consider this unacceptably long,
not a short time.  The worst case is even worse
since, if yoy have your ships dispersed, how do
you protect the messenger ships that you send to
tell everyone to form up.

Also, since, as you note...
> Most of the merchant ships in the first
>system the raiders get to will be in deep shit. So will the ones arriving
>at that system for the next 14 days.

The cost of these losses (which would not occur if they weren't
dispersed for piracy) will mean you will need more ships and
will be more costs to be lain at the feet of piracy suppression.

>Only, keeping your guard ships idling at instant readiness at your main
>systems is no better. In fact, it is very much worse. Say you have 100
>systems in your AO that are too small to have a home fleet. Say you
>opponent have 100 raider ships. If you keep all your ships at your home
>bases, your opponent can spread out his 100 ships to all 100 vulnerable
>systems, which means that you lose all traffic going to every one of those
>systems for the two weeks it takes to hear of it and send out your own
>ships.

So instead of loosing traffic to the mains systems and long the
main routes, you loose traffic to the marginal systems that
only make up 10% of the Imperiums population?  Seems like
a win to me.  But of course if you disperse your ships, you
would loose those ships to.  Also, if the fleets are already
formed up, you are going to be able to respond to those other
attacks faster.

> If instead you have a single raider-sized ship stationed in every
>system, you force him to double up, which means you only lose the traffic
>to 50 systems (plus a number of your guard ships

This last is the key.  Loosing ships as fast as he can pick them off
and perhaps even disrupting orders to form up so these losses can
be stopped.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2086
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 12 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2087



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
How long is a piece of string?
Re: the Imperial Horror Picture Show (was Re: Dulinor and Strephon)
Re: Dune
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters
Re: Dune
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:17:48 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:54:25 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>But, again, they need to grouped into squadrons that can survive forays
>>into enemy space.

>They need to be grouped in such squadrons when they set off for enemy space,
>yes. They don't need it to guard a planet from pirates.

Yeah, but unless you want to wait weeks to months after the
fighting starts for them to collect up, you need to have them
grouped up in peacetime.

>>Additionally, they need to be stationed near the border.

>Canonically the regular fleets of the Imperial Navy only use 14% of the
>military budget.

Yeah, but it is the forces near the frontier that are going
to contain units designated for attacking shipping in
enemy space.

>>Also, if you group armed merchants into convoys, their own firepower can
>>be a significant assistance to the Naval vessels).

>Not if they are up against proper warships. A merchant will have a
>computer with as low a factor as he can get away with (ie. capable of
>handling his maximum jump, but no more).

Not if he is armed.  (Esp. if the Imperium plans on using him
for wartime supply and encourages hime).

>A raider force supposedly consists of one or two cruisers plus an
>undefined number of lesser ships. If it is the size of a traditional
>squadron then there will be about 8 lesser ships of destroyer size.
>Pirates, if they exist, are armed merchantmen or perhaps Corsairs. In
>short: you don't need nearly as many ships to protect against pirates
>as you need to protect against raiders.

Well, this is debatable.  You don't need as many ships to protect
one spot.  But if you are going to stop piracy you have to protect
every world with trade in every system.  For convoys you only
need to protect the supply routes through the high pop world.

>And, btw. you don't need to protect merchants everywhere all the time.
>If a system is such a backwater that only one ship per year goes there,
>you only need to protect it there once a year.

[deletions]

>Granted, not many systems are quite that much of a backwater, but there
>are a number of them.

I would say there are very few.  Even most low pop worlds have
mining (and such) that will produce more than one ship/year.
If you add in that most worlds are one the way to somplace
(and ships with different jump ratings will stop different
places), there are, IMO, very few world that only get 1 ship
per year (A good guess would be jus the ones with numbers
instead of names).

>>Yes, but again, you have the problem that if you disperse these ships then
>>you have vulnerable shipping for weeks or months after the start of
>>hostilities while word gets out to them and they can form up.

>Vulnerable for a short while, yes.

It would take months to collect them from all over the
Spinward Marches.  I consider this unacceptably long,
not a short time.  The worst case is even worse
since, if yoy have your ships dispersed, how do
you protect the messenger ships that you send to
tell everyone to form up.

Also, since, as you note...
> Most of the merchant ships in the first
>system the raiders get to will be in deep shit. So will the ones arriving
>at that system for the next 14 days.

The cost of these losses (which would not occur if they weren't
dispersed for piracy) will mean you will need more ships and
will be more costs to be lain at the feet of piracy suppression.

>Only, keeping your guard ships idling at instant readiness at your main
>systems is no better. In fact, it is very much worse. Say you have 100
>systems in your AO that are too small to have a home fleet. Say you
>opponent have 100 raider ships. If you keep all your ships at your home
>bases, your opponent can spread out his 100 ships to all 100 vulnerable
>systems, which means that you lose all traffic going to every one of those
>systems for the two weeks it takes to hear of it and send out your own
>ships.

So instead of loosing traffic to the mains systems and long the
main routes, you loose traffic to the marginal systems that
only make up 10% of the Imperiums population?  Seems like
a win to me.  But of course if you disperse your ships, you
would loose those ships to.  Also, if the fleets are already
formed up, you are going to be able to respond to those other
attacks faster.

> If instead you have a single raider-sized ship stationed in every
>system, you force him to double up, which means you only lose the traffic
>to 50 systems (plus a number of your guard ships

This last is the key.  Loosing ships as fast as he can pick them off
and perhaps even disrupting orders to form up so these losses can
be stopped.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:58:38 -0000
From: "Walsh, Tony ()" <Tony.walsh@DIGIFONE.COM>
Subject: How long is a piece of string?

re Invention within the Traveller setting???

> How about a competition amoung the TML'ers to see who can design a
> deployable mechanism that would overcome the week delay. The winner
*	will be showered with kudos by all.

Here is my attempt at a FTL communication system. 

All you need is a long, a very long piece of string and an 2 elastic
bands. The piece of string will stretch from one system to another and
is attached to a base station in each system by the elastic band.

Communication is now simple and almost instant. A quick tug of the
string is a 0 and a slow tug of the string can be a 1. Using simple
Morse code complex messages can be communicated quickly.

Minor details like finding a material strong enough to stretch across
the reaches of space, and so on, can be left to the engineers.

There is an improved version of this system which encloses the string in
a tube. This version became know as the Tube Communication System or TCS
for short.


Tony

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:41:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: the Imperial Horror Picture Show (was Re: Dulinor and Strephon)

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> >I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> >off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> >Lucan should act the fool.
> 
> Ack!  Too much Prednisone and salsa!  I can't resist!
> 
> The Imperial Horror Picture Show

Well trillions died in The Rebellion and its aftermath, that seems
pretty horrific to me.  :(

Maybe we should split this Traveller movie cast list up into two
versions 1) musical commedy and 2) all else

I am not up on current musicals but how about

The Imperial Horror Picture Show

Lyrics - Tim Rice
Music - Andrew Lloyd Weber
Electronic Instrumentals - Christopher Franke
Directed - Alan Parker (Evita)
Produced - J Michael Straczynski

Emperor Strephon - Tim Robbins (a la Bob Roberts)
Empress Iolanthe - Liza Minelli (if she can stay sober long enough)
Princess Iphegenia - ?
The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman (typecasting, no idea if he sings)
Archduke Dulinor - Antonio Banderas (as seen in Evita)
Emperor Lucan - Jason Alexander
Prince Varian - Marc Miller (a non singing cameo)  
Duchess Margaret - Bette Middler
Archduke Norris - Lyle Lovett (he'd need to gain some weight)
Seldrian - k.d. lang
Archduke Brzk - Paul Simon (maybe Frankie Valli for the high pitched
voice alone...)
Archduke Ishuggi of Vland - Paul Robeson would be good (but he's
slightly dead)
Archduke Craig - I'm not sure if we need him in our musical thematically
Lt Trace Windhock - ?
Coordinator of SolSec - Tom Lehrer 
Margaret's evil sidekick (ie her Husband ?) - Jonathan Pryce (Evita)
Honourable admiral who Lucan executes in the 1st scene - 
Dishonourable admiral who Lucan executes in the 1st scene - Leroy
Guantney (a non singing role) (maybe he is defenestated off the Imperial
Palace)
Archduke Norris's sidekick (Dilgadin) - Patrick Stewart
The Hiver whose Manipulation started the whole Rebellion - animatronics
w/ Weird Al Yankovic's voice

If the (very hypothetical) Traveller movie was done as a musical commedy
Tim Curry (as seen in Rocky) might make a good Lucan but he is a bit old
for the part today.  Naturally if it is done as a musical commedy I
would expect it to include my adaptation of The Lord High Executioners
song from Gilbert and Sullivans Mikado as I inflicted on (er, posted
too) this list a few months ago and that Doug has made available on his
web site http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html  - Traveller The
Silly Era (shameless plug, thanks for putting it up Doug).

Comments are welcomed.

- -- 
 pnewman@alaska.net		Peter Newman 
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"I have been nothing but compassionate and understanding. I mean, all
you had to do was to admit you were wrong and I was right and everything
would've been fine." - Ivanova to Winters in Babylon5: "Divided
Loyalties"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:11:37 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dune

Actually, one thing the movie Dune had that was better then the book was
the idea of the "Wierding Modules".  

If the Director's cut of Dune were mixed with the final cut, the movie
would be a lot better.  And lose the damned idiotic scenes of Baron
having his skin skewered and the others with him flying around and
around laughing.  Painful to watch Mr. Herbert's work destroyed like
this.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:37 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

Lars Adler wrote:

>=20
> In German Texts (like I show here), every Nomen begins with a capital
> Letter. There have been some Considerations of getting rid of this, but
> no one really accepted it, although it would make some things easier.
Actually, german would be spelled  lowercase, as it=B4 s an adjective in
this context! ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:54:56 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>=20
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>=20
> > The Aslan Ambassador - Ron Pearlman
>=20
> Excellent!
>=20
> > Director - Peter Jackson
> >
> > Any other ideas?
>=20
> Let's get someone to direct that is really familiar with the material. =
 Hmm.
> Let me think...
>=20
> Oh yea, I know someone.  His name is Kenneth Bearden.
>=20
> I here he's new on the scene--but passionate and determined.
And he designed KBv2.0 ! That should be a strong argument in favcor of
him and should convince everybody, he=B4 s the man!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:01:30 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> SD Mooney wrote:
> >
> > Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > >> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now
> > >>graven
> > >> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> > >
> > >No.  Jack has to be Norris.
> > >
> > >"Now, get yer asss out there and fight the damn zho's, will ya."
> 
> "Truth... you can't handle the truth!"
> (when asked about his elevation to Archduke)
> 
Rofml!

> > Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
> 
> I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> Lucan should act the fool.
No way, insane is much better. I would like to see Curry in that role as
well!
> 
> > We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
> 
> I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor
Might work!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:05:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bilanidin Font Equivalent Sounds/ Letters

In mail you write:

> Old Latin was only written in (now) Capital Letters,
> U and V also being the same letter.

I and J were also the same letter.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:00:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dune

In mail you write:

> Jory M. Earl wrote:
>
>>Actually, as far as book tributes go, this was a pretty good one.
>>anyone remember how Dino De Laurentis crucified "Dune"?
>
> Argh! Don't remind me. Now *that* movie paid little attention to the
> original author. What a travesty.

Actually, Herbert worked with de Laurentis on the movie. And he *liked*
it! <sigh>

Just goes to show that the author's vision may not match yours.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:38:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

In mail you write:

>>Sorry, Warganes was even sillier. Getting those graphics on an old
>>*IMSAI*, with an acoustic modem? Yeah, right.
>
> You're not talking about the same Wargames that I've seen I imagine?
>
> If so, then you're wrong on one count.  The screen on his computer in his
> room never has any high-tech graphics or anything.  In fact, the map on his
> computer appears to be made up of low ASCII characters.  Sorry.
>
> And if you don't believe me, you can sit down and watch it again yourself.

Even if that's correct (I won't argue the point) there's no way to get
the update speed shown over a 300 bps link! And that's the best you'll
get from that modem. Heck, the cpu in that system would be hard pressed
to update things that fast (though he *could* have a much better cpu,
given that the bus was easily modified to be "standard" IEEE-646)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:11:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

In mail you write:

> Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be odder.
>
> * Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd.  Duck-billed
>   platapuses (platypi?) are odd.

Octopi sex is odd. (the male and female drop the end of a specialized
tentacle near each other and then they wander off).

Seahorse "pregnancy" is odd. The *males* carry the babies.

Naked mole rat society/biology is *weird*. The "queen" mole rat
secretes a hormone that keeps the other females immature. So they are
an actual case of *mammals* with a "hive" society!

BTW, the simplest way to handle the Aslan sex ratio is to use the same
method that is currently used for "low tech" sex selection in a lot of
countries. Sperm are sensitive to pH. And the sensitivity is linked to
wether they carry an X or Y. So a simple douch will give a 90%
certainty of the sex of the fetus.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:23:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:

>         Limited franchise just for starters.  Substitute "Party Member" for
> "Veteran" and things get a little spooky.

There is the notable difference that the "limited" franchise is limited
only by the desire to do *something* for the government for a couple of
years. It's *not* limited to *military* service. For a contemporary
example, serving a hitch in the Peace Corps or Postal Service would do
just as well.

>         However, IMHO, it's not classic fascism per se; just way, way, way
> too authoritarian for my tastes.

I didn't notice it being all that authoritarian.

>  What really gets me is that the political
> system described in ST the book is largely contrary to the basic political
> ideals the U.S.A. was founded on; taxation without representation, absence
> of due process, and so forth. 

I suggest that you study both history and the book again. There *was*
due process in the book! And the franchise was equally (though
differently) limited in the US for decades. So the taxation without
representation but either applies to *both* or neither.

In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".

> Heinlein must have known this, and from what
> I understand of his politics, probably would have found this system
> somewhat reprehensible.

You obviously haven't read some of his essays. Nor the article where he
mentions that he dropped work on Stranger in a Strange Land to write
Starship Troopers because of his worries about the way the country was
going. This was about the same time he founded the Patrick Henry Society.

> This is why I think that it was a sort of critical
> thinking test for his readers...

It was. You failed. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:24:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

In mail you write:

> Being a parasitic vampiric tick, two things have spurred me into some sort of
> pathetic action.  All this talk of the Bilanidin font has piqued my interest
> in making a font, and the idea that there are two fonts in Aslan (one male
> and one female) also interested me.
>
> My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not pens, but
> "ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone and mud with :)  So
> I can get an idea of the look for their language.  I've seen flowery Aslan
> "font" type in some pictures I believe, however, I'm already getting some
> interesting ideas...
>
> I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
> straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the males
> are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be more
> flowery, flowing, and ornate.

I rather suspect that the "male" script would have started out as
territory markings "carved" with claws into trees on territorial
boundaries.  And later they'd be chiseled into rocks placed to mark the
boundaries. 

As such, they *would* be straight line. I'd suggest looking at runes
and celtic ogham for examples of writing designed for similar tools and
materials. Ogham is especially apt, as it's not as familiar to most
folks. It consists of a "baseline" with the characters bein formed by
lines running to or through it at 45 or 90 degree angles. This would be
an oghan word (I haven't bothered looking up the actual characters, so
it's nonsense):

 \  |   /   \    |    /                 \\   ||
- ------------------------------------------------
              \  |  /     \   |    /

You get the idea...


> I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
> business-like and traditional.

The female script would have to be more expressive and contain more
subtleties, as they need to express more complex concepts and have more
variations and shades of meaning.

So I'd go for something obviously "cursive" or calligraphed. Remember
that cursive styles were developed because they can be written
*faster*. The ultimate development of this line are the various
shorthands. Which are most definitely "cursive" in nature (though *not*
"connected").

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:50:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

In mail you write:

>> >I think this needs to be a ship's diameter, not a ship's radius,
>> >because a shot aimed at the target's bows is still going to hit if
>> >the ship moves by r.  In other words, FC will always lead a little to
>> >compensate for the effects of acceleration.  Thus
>> >
>> >r = v^1/3 where r is the distance the ship must move to evade.
>> 
>> You are not amining for the bow as you do not know in what direction the
>> acceleration will be (assuming the ship can change its sttitude
>> significantly in a timelag period. This might not be the case for large
>> ships but is an assumtion in my calcs). Even if you aimed for the bow and
>> knew where it was you would increase your propability of miss as any
>> acceleration less than the anticipated would make you miss directly (draw
>> it out on paper to see).
>
> I was assuming acceleration is a more-or-less known direction because 
> unless provided with some pretty hefty thrusters mounted sideways, 
> Traveller ships won't turn at anything like 1 radian/sec^2 
> acceleration.  Thus, a shot towards the bows means you have to move 
> pretty well the whole ship's length to evade.

Remember, the direction the ship is *moving* (velocity vector) and the
direction it is *pointing* have *no* relation to each other. The
*acceleration* vector* and the direction the ship is pointing match,
but the velocity vector is what determines where the ship will be when
the shot gets there. (I've over-simplified, but the idea is correct
even if the details are a bit different)

>> >Doesn't this imply that the target ship is moving perpendicular to
>> >the firing ship?  (ships accelerate along a principal axis, usually).
>> >If not, the perceived movement will be less -- say by a factor of 2
>> >if the target is approaching at 30 degrees from dead-on, rather than
>> >crossing the path of the firing ship.  Say 10 hexes.
>> 
>> The above calcs assumed the worst scenario for the shooter ie perpendicular
>> acceleration in relation to the shooter and instantaneous attitude change
>> ie the acceleration vectors direction and length can change at a whim of
>> the pilot.
>> (You might note a trend here; whenever I'm in doubt I'll always guess to
>> reduce hit propability as I find these numbers way to high as they are).
>
> Well, I'm with you on that, but I'm having trouble justifying it to 
> myself with any other rationale than "It's only a game."

There's little or no *reason* for a ship to make evasive manuevers that
*aren't* at right angles to the line joining him to your ship. Any
vector not perpendicular is wasting delta-V.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:24:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:


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>>In mail you write:
>
>>>  Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while
>
>>I keep hearing people say this, and I can never figure out where they
>>get it from?
>
>>Please explain why you think that the society in Starship Troopers (the
>>book) is fascist?
>
> Didn't Rico's Dad get publicly whipped for speaking out against the
> Government? - sounds pretty fascist to me. I could be mistaken, It
> has been a long time since I read the book.

No. There were exactly *three* whippings described in the book. One was
a petty criminal of some sort that Juan snuck out to watch as a kid. Or
perhaps he planned to sneak out and then changed his mind. I forget
which.

The secomd was when the idiot recruit got 40 lashes for striking a
superior officer. And under the *military* rules (even now) that's a
*capital* offense, they found a way to go easy on him, because they
realized that he was just *stupid* (blurting out the fact that you hit
your superior when he's been trying his best to *hide* it is *truly*
stupid). 

Finally, Juan got flogged for endangering his teammates. That was the
bit where they were using simulated weapons during a simulated night
mission and he flipped up his night vision goggles and used naked eyes
to offset a "simulated" nuke. Since if it'd been real, he'd have gotten
folks killed, he got nailed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:52:00 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

Quoth anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman):

> >I was assuming acceleration is a more-or-less known direction because
> >unless provided with some pretty hefty thrusters mounted sideways,
> >Traveller ships won't turn at anything like 1 radian/sec^2
> >acceleration.  Thus, a shot towards the bows means you have to move
> >pretty well the whole ship's length to evade.
> 
> Yes, but if the evading ships pilot decides to ease his foot off the
> gaspedal or whatever you'll miss.

Sorry, you aim at where the bows *were*.  Thus, if the ship 
accelerates such as to move half its length (the distance you chose 
for 'evasion length') you hit aft; if not you hit at the bow.  That's 
why I think the ship has to move a whole length, not just half the 
length, in order to evade.

> That is: Picture the targets speed a known factor and set up a 2D
> coordinate system (angular coordinates but we treat them as cartesian due
> to them being so small compared to the ranges) with the predicted location
> based upon last known velocity at origo. We have deduced what acceleration
> the ship is capable of by continued measurements of velocity changes. Even
> if we know the direction the acceleration will have more or less we do not
> know its magnitude (there was some talk about the 'jerk' value for
> thrusterplates and others; how fast can they change their applied thrust?).

I'll agree instantaneous for our purposes.

> To get max hit propability we'll center our shot distribution pattern
> around the center of the most likely acceleration (that is the same as the
> last measured acceleration). Here the gunner might impart some of his
> knowledge such as "I know this baby cannot do more than 1.67 G so we'll put
> our patternscenter a bit further back".

Well, there's a subtle guessing game going on here between evading 
pilot and attacking gunners, so you can't quite just play the 
probabilities but yes, that's exactly how I envisage it.

> All this is just bickering methinks as we both agree that it is fairly easy
> to hit targets very far away.

Not _just_ bickering ;-)  But yes, we agree, so let's give up and go 
back to talking about Starship Troopers 8-)

> The good thing with this IMHO is that
> shooting ranges go up to about the same as detection ranges which makes
> good roleplaying. Factors such as vibrations from the shooters thrusters
> misaligning the lasers and others have not been taken into account and I'm
> shure there are many more hinderances to shooting and we can emphasize them
> or not depending on if we want spacecombat to resemble naval battles or
> submarine fights - I vote for the latter.

Well, call me a pedant, but I fancy working out the physics and then 
seeing what falls out.  I must agree that I'd greatly prefer the 
submarine style of combat (*much* better roleplaying), all things 
being equal.

Nick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2087
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 12 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2088



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Rocky Horror Traveller Show
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
Re: Raiders vs pirates
MST3K
Re: Rocky Horror Traveller Show
Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:01:39 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]

Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

wrote lots of fun stuff :)

<snip>

Three observations:

1
If your guards split up to search for intruders, use groups of threes so
that when
one is attacked, the second can investigate/defend whilst the third calls for
reinforcements.

2
Learn the real lesson from "The boy who cried wolf" story:
Whilst you might want to give your lookout a long lecture about friend/foe
recognition and timewasting, you still shoot your lieutenant if he doesn't
maintain a sub five minute response time just because
"its only another false alarm".
Raising a false alarm yourself and then shooting anyone who turns up late
should get the message accross.

3
Following any of your guidelines would get you thrown out of the guild of evil
overlords. Its part of the deal with the heroes guild that lets you say
"The world will hear from me again", escape certain death and return
hideously disfigured in the sequel.

Think about the movie rights and plastic toy sales :)

Phil
- --
  Mailto:Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT - they only pay me:)
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex, UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:16:28 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> >
>
>I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.
>
I agree...

[snip]
>
>I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
>more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
>pounds...
>

I think Sean Connery would make a fine Norris!

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:32:29 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz):

> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> >> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
> >
> >I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> >off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> >Lucan should act the fool.
> 
> I'm leaning towards Malkovich -- Curry couldn't menace a Boy Scout.  Or how
> about Malcolm McDowell?  "Come, droogies, let us all itty Core-wards..."

Too old, but otherwise yes.

> >> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
> >
> >I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor
> 
> Tragic overactor, IMHO <G>.  Ian Holm _is_ appealing.  Gravitas, with an
> atmosphere of ineffectuality.  Slightly dithery gravitas.  Anthony Hopkins,
> maybe?

Anyone who does a good King Lear.  Wasn't Patrick Stewart a proper 
actor before Dune and TNG?  (He'd interest the ST crowd in the 
hypothetical movie, too.)

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:30:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
<snip>
>In short, you can live your life quite happily and successfully without
>having the vote, but to get the franchise (and the reserved jobs) you have
>to give something.. a couple of years of your life to service.
I got the impression (note it has also been years since I read the
book) that MI or Fleet weren't the only options for federal service.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:00:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Rocky Horror Traveller Show

>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:33:48 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

>At 02:00 PM 11/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>>
>>I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>>off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>>Lucan should act the fool.

>Ack!  Too much Prednisone and salsa!  I can't resist!

>The Imperial Horror Picture Show

><ducks near-c rocks coming from all directions...>
>- ---------------------------------

Set co-ords to your left...
Engage the drive to your right!
Put your hands on your hips,
then you dim out those lights!
Look out of the window...
then you go in-sa-a-a-a-ane!

LETS DO THE JUMP DRIVE AGAIN!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:02:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
> <hiss> Join us, Derek... <hiss> Come to the TravLang list... <hiss>  It is
> your destiny... <hiss>

No.  I am a Jedi, like my father before me.  (and I don't know the address)

> Are certain of the sounds listed below always produced with ingressive or
> always with egressive airflow?

I assumed that certain sounds are always produced with ingressive airflow
(perhaps some of the vowels?), and that the language included enough of
them that you'd not run out of air during a sentance.

> Quibble:  At least in my dialect of English, the "ou" of "house" isn't
> distinguishable from the Putonghua or Beijing pronunciations of "Mao".

Two explanations (take your pick):
1) Untrained English speakers have a very difficult time distinguishing
   the two sounds because one of them doesn't exist in English.  The
   difference (to an Aslan) is as clear as the difference between "L" and
   "R" is to an English speaker.  The difference (to an English speaker)
   is about as clear as the difference between "L" and "R" is to a
   Japanese speaker who hasn't studied English..
2) I'm not as familiar with Chinese as I should be, but it seems to me
   that my (southeastern) pronounciation of house begins the same, but
   ends with a slightly different sound.

At least in theory, explanation 1 could apply to any asterisked sound.

> Quibble: Maybe make that "Nahuatl"? -- "Aztec" is a political designation,
> not a linguistic one.

UNfortunately, I'm not _that_ much of a linguist (and neither are most
readers).  "Aztec" is something recognizable to the audience.  But you're
correct.

> >  Learning the entire Trokh language, vocabulary, and grammar is far too
> >  difficult for most Traveller players (and writers!).  However, a random
> 
> Sounds almost like a DARE, Mr. Wildstar... <G>

DO.  Or do not.  There is no dare ...

> Publish! Publish! 

OK, I probably will.  UNless anyone else is interested (Loren?), I'll
convert it to HTML and put it up on the Web.

> And we _need_ this sort of creativity over on TravLang.

OK, what's the -request address for TravLang?


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:53:04 +0000
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (LONG) re: Evading laser fire

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

> Remember, the direction the ship is *moving* (velocity vector) and the
> direction it is *pointing* have *no* relation to each other. The
> *acceleration* vector* and the direction the ship is pointing match,
> but the velocity vector is what determines where the ship will be when
> the shot gets there. (I've over-simplified, but the idea is correct
> even if the details are a bit different)

Agreed that there is no necessary correlation.  However, we're 
assuming the firing ship can screen out the underlying velocity 
vector and in effect observe the changes due to evasion.  I see your 
point, though.


> There's little or no *reason* for a ship to make evasive manuevers that
> *aren't* at right angles to the line joining him to your ship. Any
> vector not perpendicular is wasting delta-V.

How about

i) Wanting to reduce ship's profile [a long thin ship may be easier 
to hit side-on than end-on]
ii) Wanting to build velocity towards the attacking ship (close the 
range)
iii) Fooling gunners who won't believe such a suicidal move 

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:44:16 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

David P. Summers writes:
>Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:54:25 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>But, again, they need to grouped into squadrons that can survive forays
>>>into enemy space.
> 
>>They need to be grouped in such squadrons when they set off for enemy space,
>>yes. They don't need it to guard a planet from pirates.
> 
>Yeah, but unless you want to wait weeks to months after the
>fighting starts for them to collect up, you need to have them
>grouped up in peacetime.

If you have one squadron distributed among all the different worlds in a
system, it takes no time at all to collect them (Well, some hours delay
due to to lightspeed limitations). If you don't have enough scouts in a
scout force to reach all worlds within jump there is a week's extra delay
as the scout jumps to the nearest base and the base sends out couriers to
all dispersed forces. If the squadron happens to be low on supplies you
will have another week's delay as they jump back to the base. That's a
_maximum_ delay of two weeks.

>>>Additionally, they need to be stationed near the border.
> 
>>Canonically the regular fleets of the Imperial Navy only use 14% of the
>>military budget.
> 
>Yeah, but it is the forces near the frontier that are going
>to contain units designated for attacking shipping in
>enemy space.

And the forces of the interior will contain units that are designated to
reinforce the frontier forces. Plus, the forces of the interior can better
afford to disperse capital units, since alerting them at an outsystem
will not take any longer than alerting them at a main base.

>>>Also, if you group armed merchants into convoys, their own firepower can
>>>be a significant assistance to the Naval vessels).
> 
>>Not if they are up against proper warships. A merchant will have a
>>computer with as low a factor as he can get away with (ie. capable of
>>handling his maximum jump, but no more).
> 
>Not if he is armed.

David, aren't you the one that is always insisting that people will not
pay for protection against pirates, because the losses won't outweigh
the expense? Yet here you are, blithely suggesting that a commercial
ship spends umpteen megacredits on a computer that will only help them
if they are ever attacked by a pirate or a raider? A factor 9fib computer
costs 200 MCr and mass 26 T. That will increase the initial cost of the
ship by 36.4 MCr and the operating cost of the ship by 11.4 MCr per year,
only a tad less the sum total of all other operating expenses for a 600 T
freighter, while at the same time reducing the earning potential of the
ship by more than 500,000 Cr (Assumptions: the 9fib computer replaces a
factor 3 computer in the _original_ design; if you actually have to
replace an original model 3 the cost goes up). And that assumes that the
ship has a big enough power plant to handle the new computer and a couple
of triple laser turrets. The minimum ship that has that is a 600 T jump-3
ship. Smaller ships can just forget it. Even if you do it on the cheap and
'only' spring for a model 5 computer the cost is still 45 MCr. Why is it
that this is better than insurance while insurance is better than protection
against pirates?

>(Esp. if the Imperium plans on using him for wartime supply and encourages
>him).

Oh, I see. THe Imperium encourages him. How? By subsidizing the purchase,
I suppose. How is it that the Imperium will cheerfully pay for making
a lot of merchants into indifferent warships with no armor and 1G of
acceleration, but won't invest in a far less number of proper warships
that would do the job much better and could, as a free lunch, be useful
in peacetime too?

And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
be really, really bad news for a potential pirate? If he has a cheap ship
then his prospective victims will cream him, and if he has an equally
capable ship, his operating expenses goes way up.

>You don't need as many ships to protect
>one spot.  But if you are going to stop piracy you have to protect
>every world with trade in every system.  For convoys you only
>need to protect the supply routes through the high pop world.

You mean between the high pop worlds, don't you? I do hope that we at
least agree that high-population worlds would have defenses of their
own.

>>>Yes, but again, you have the problem that if you disperse these ships then
>>>you have vulnerable shipping for weeks or months after the start of
>>>hostilities while word gets out to them and they can form up.
> 
>>Vulnerable for a short while, yes.
> 
>It would take months to collect them from all over the Spinward Marches.

It takes months to collect them anyway. Half of the Imperial forces are
raised and maintained at subsector level. That means they are stationed
away from the frontier.

>I consider this unacceptably long, not a short time.

Maybe you do, but that's the Traveller universe as it is described. I keep
saying that piracy dosen't make sense as it is portrayed in the official
Traveller universe and you keep coming up with other parts of the canon
that dosen't make sense if piracy does. Which is actually exactly what
I've been saying all along. If you have to change the Imperial navy from
a two-tier system distributed more or less evenly out across the whole
Imperium to a system where most of the navy sits in a shell around the
frontier, leaving the interior a helpless prey to acquisitive merchants
with deficient moral senses in order for piracy to make sense, then piracy
_dosen't_ make sense. I admit that most of the burden of proof is on me, but
you certainly have an obligation to uphold _all_ the canon, not just the
part that fits your ideas. Otherwise you simply prove my point for me.

>The worst case is even worse since, if yoy have your ships dispersed, how do
>you protect the messenger ships that you send to tell everyone to form up.

You just argued (correctly, IMO) that scout forces would be safe from
interception because they don't have to go near a planet. Why in the
world do you suddenly feel that a courier has to risk jumping in anywhere
near a risk point?

>Also, since, as you note...
>>Most of the merchant ships in the first
>>system the raiders get to will be in deep shit. So will the ones arriving
>>at that system for the next 14 days.
> 
>The cost of these losses (which would not occur if they weren't
>dispersed for piracy)

Come again? You want the marginal systems to have no defenses at all. How
can you possibly argue that not stationing defense forces in these
intermediate systems will protect the merchant shipping against raiders?
I could have sworn I made that very point a few lines lower down...

>>Only, keeping your guard ships idling at instant readiness at your main
>>systems is no better. In fact, it is very much worse. Say you have 100
>>systems in your AO that are too small to have a home fleet. Say you
>>opponent have 100 raider ships. If you keep all your ships at your home
>>bases, your opponent can spread out his 100 ships to all 100 vulnerable
>>systems, which means that you lose all traffic going to every one of those
>>systems for the two weeks it takes to hear of it and send out your own
>>ships.

I was right. I did make that very point...
 
>So instead of loosing traffic to the mains systems

You never lose traffic to the main systems. They have defense anyway,
remember? 99+% of all the defenses, Imperial and local alike.

>and along the main routes,

Make up your mind. Are the main routes defended in peacetime or not? If
they are adequately defended, then they are safe against raiders and
pirates alike. If they are not defended then they are vulnerable to
raiders and pirates alike. Unless they are defended against pirates,
but not raiders. But under no circumstances would they be defended
against raiders but not pirates. That dosen't make sense.

>you loose traffic to the marginal systems that only make up 10% of the
>Imperiums population?  Seems like a win to me.

No, by your scheme, instead of losing the traffic to and through 10 or 50
marginal systems, as you would by my scheme, you will lose the traffic to
and through 100 marginal systems (In neither case do you lose the traffic
to the main systems). Seems like a big loss to me.  

>But of course if you disperse your ships, you would loose those ships to.

This is a perfect example of those opinions stated as bald facts we were
talking about. This is only true if you make three unwarranted assumptions:
That it is possible to surprise a ship by jumping into a system close to
it, that achieving surprise will allow you to destroy said ship, and that
any sane raider CO will jump in close enough to have his command wiped out
if a battleship squadron just happens to be passing by.

As for the first assumption, the rules says nothing at all, except that all
fights between spaceships are assumed to begin at long range. As for the
second assumption, the CT combat system makes it very difficult to destroy
an armored ship in one combat round (even an unarmed one stands a good
chance of surviving for a few rounds), which is what a properly designed
jump-capable ship needs to make a jump. As for the third assumption, you
got to be kidding! Even if you use the 'all jump together' special rule
from MT, you still get your raider squadron arriving over a span of hours.
I'd just love to be the commodore of a visiting cruiser squadron if a
squadron of destroyers began arriving in drips and draps! Even if you only
have a pair of regular destroyers defending, odds are that they will hurt
the first arrival bad and there is no doubt that they will have warning
enough to get away before the full squadron arrives. A much more likely
scenario is for the raider to jump in some distance from the 100 diameter
limit and gauge the opposition, ready to jump out again if it is too steep.
If not, he will chase away the defenders and spend a funfilled fortnight
destroying incoming merchants. Which is bad, but a lot less bad if it only
happens in 50 or 10 systems than if it happens in 100.

>>If instead you have a single raider-sized ship stationed in every
>>system, you force him to double up, which means you only lose the traffic
>>to 50 systems (plus a number of your guard ships
> 
>This last is the key.  Loosing ships as fast as he can pick them off
>and perhaps even disrupting orders to form up so these losses can
>be stopped.

Except that if we play by the Traveller rules in the Traveller universe
(Well, the CT rules and universe -- I don't know how the T4 combat rules
works. Unless they are similar to the CT ones), then you will hardly lose
any at all. So if that really is the key as you say...



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:06:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs pirates

David P. Summers writes:
>And you do that at the main worlds.  If you distribute your
>forces so you can stop _every_ raiding force at _every_
>system, you aren't going to be in trouble when the
>main invasion fleet comes through.

I'm sure you are not conciously trying to distort my arguments, David, but
do try to remember that I'm advocating distributing less than 1% of the
forces out to these marginal systems. Nor am I saying that guard forces
are intended to stop every raiding force at every system; to the contrary,
they would only have to be able to stop 1/Nth of the enemy raiders, where
N are the number of otherwise undefended systems, in order to be worthwhile
for their military value alone.

>>Would be pirates or raiders would not be able to predict beforehand
>>whether a target world would have a patrol in it or not.
> 
>No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>where the random patrols are not.

Assuming they can afford to wait that long. What with all the other
economic problems that pirates have I'm not sure that a good number of
random patrols won't be enough to deter most pirates. Imagine if a
getaway car cost twenty times the average loot from a bank heist and
couldn't be easily stolen (and had to refuel every time it hit a new
town). How long do you think it would take the police to track down
a group of professional bank robbers? Or imagine that hijacking a
truck required the use of a tank. How many trucks do you think you
would lose? Or even that pirating an surface ship required a small
destroyer. How many actual one-ship-chase-down-another-and-board-it-in-
the-smoke piracies have there been in the Atlantic lately? When was the
last time a bunch of pirates with a ship the size and worth of its
victim captured a ship in the real world? It's all very well to compare
Traveller pirates with bank robbers, hijackers, and even modern day
pirates, but none of those criminals need to invest a fortune in their
basic equipment.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:44:06 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: MST3K

MST3K?

Umm? What dat?

Dom (in ignorance)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:22:31 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Traveller Show

>Set co-ords to your left...
>Engage the drive to your right!
>Put your hands on your hips,
>then you dim out those lights!
>Look out of the window...
>then you go in-sa-a-a-a-ane!
>
>LETS DO THE JUMP DRIVE AGAIN!

In another dimension
With Voyageristic intention
For a week secluded
But I'll arrive ...

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:42:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney) wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0700
>it was ventured (insignificantly):
>>
>>Dom Mooney wrote:

Dom Mooney wrote:

>>>I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
>>>(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
>>>rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
>>>or should that be 'flaming list'.
>>>
>>>Any objections?

Dom Mooney *did not write*.

>>Better than flame wars about the TL of the RoM, I guess. <g>

Leroy wrote:

>Well, I'm surprised that you don't know the *real* meaning of flame
>wars, but then, you couldn't see the RoM issue either. :)

I can follow the sentiments of the previous poster, but somehow I prefered
the RoM stuff to Pirates...!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:46 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> >> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
> >
> >I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> >off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> >Lucan should act the fool.
> 
> I'm leaning towards Malkovich -- Curry couldn't menace a Boy Scout.  Or how
> about Malcolm McDowell?  "Come, droogies, let us all itty Core-wards..."

That's exactly my point! ;-) I've always pictured Lucan as a petulant
overachiever. The kind who *thinks* he's menacing, but is only menacing
due to the power he has...

> >> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
> >
> >I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor
> 
> Tragic overactor, IMHO <G>.  Ian Holm _is_ appealing.  Gravitas, with an
> atmosphere of ineffectuality.  Slightly dithery gravitas.  Anthony Hopkins,
> maybe?

That's interesting! I was thinking Hopkins too. I thought people wanted
someone younger...

> >Zhodani Noble = Jeremy Irons
> 
> Bingo!  RuPaul as his intendant secretary.  (Gotta be tall, right?)
> 
> >I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
> >more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
> >pounds...
> 
> DeNiro!  DeNiro!
> 
> "Who are you elevating to Archduke?  Who?  Huh?  Who you elevating?  Must
> be me -- I don't see anyone else here."

"To stop Virus, we have to be a team. You know what happens if we don't
work as a team?" <wielding baseball bat>

Hmmmm... no.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:02 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:29:44 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> >Clarify this: what is the point of an unarmed Patrol ship?
> 
> To report enemy action.
> 
> >It takes at least 2 weeks for information obtained in a patrol to be
> >acted upon, by that time, the info is dated.
> 
> Well, it can be used in 1 week to make sure that ships that
> can't take on the enemy forces.  But, more to the point,
> the fact is that the only way to stop an enemy fleet from
> rampaiging through your Empire is to be able to predict
> where they are going.  Thus, regardless of the time
> delay, being able to gather the data and use it
> to predict enemy action is going to be crucial
> to military success (and is what sperates the
> admirals that you hear about in history from the
> rest).

Agreed. You need information on enemy movements. You need information
carrying vessels at _every_ system.

It makes sense to spend the extra few megacreds per vessel to give the
information gathering wessels a few piddling weapons.

> >Also, the infamous 10 dia. limit comes into play, or are you suggesting
> >deploying tanker ships with every Patrol vessel?
> 
> No.  They fuel up before they go on patrol.  Maneveuver
> and life support take so much less fuel that a scout
> can opperate for considerable time before it looses
> the ability to jump.

If an unarmed patrol ship jumps into a system with hostile forces at
refueling points, then the patrol ship is SOL, DOA and will be reported
MIA.

> >If you assume disrupting trade is an effective strategem, then you also
> >must assume that defending against that tactic is advisable.
> 
> And you do that at the main worlds.  If you distribute your
> forces so you can stop _every_ raiding force at _every_
> system, you aren't going to be in trouble when the
> main invasion fleet comes through.

We've been through this before. I don't understand your contradiction.

On the one hand, you say the Imperium won't bother with the
disappearance of a few pirated vessels, because compared to the Gross
Production of the Imperium, it's peanuts.

On the other hand, you seem to believe that a patrol ships spread evenly
across 1400 or so systems is a vast waste of resources.

I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
sufficient. (More on high traffic worlds, less to none on backwater)
Let's round that up to 5000 patrol vessels. I don't have my books here,
so I'll guess at a cost of 60 MCr/vessel. With that much money you can
*maybe* support _one_ large dreadnaught.

The Imperium is known to have _squadrons_ of dreadnaughts. Do you really
believe that one extra dreadnaught would make a significant difference
to the defensive and offensive capability of the Imperium?

I don't. I believe the extra patrolling vessels are worth the creds.

> >The best defence against an external threat disrupting your trade *is*
> >spreading ships evenly throughout every world with trade, and/or regular
> >patrols of larger fleet elements thoughout every world with trade.
> 
> Well, no.  First of all, you only need to worry about areas
> near the frontier.  Second of all, putting those kind
> of forces in every system is just a waste since 90%
> of them will just sit there and never engage in battle.

We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
your movements would travel.

As Hans has argued many times, the forces are not "wasted" since as a
side benefit, they are making trade safer, and therefore more likely;
therefore increasing the economic output of the Imperium.

> >> I'm sorry, I didn't follow.  How do you "randomly interdict"?
> >
> >I believe the intent is to have forces patroling throughout many worlds,
> >jumping from world to world on a non-repeating, "random" schedule.
> >
> >Would be pirates or raiders would not be able to predict beforehand
> >whether a target world would have a patrol in it or not.
> 
> No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
> where the random patrols are not.

And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are? Do
they have time to avoid the patrols, refuel and jump out?

Random patrols increase the risk for pirates and raiders, thus
decreasing the number of people willing to be pirates and raiders, and
decreasing the number who are successful in those endeavours.

Besides, patrols are "canon" too. Check out the ship encounter charts.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2088
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 12 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2089



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Trav Movie
TML, ST, and me ranting again.
Re: MST3K
Re: Evading laser fire
Re: Odd lifeforms   Was: Aslan Male/Female Ratio
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2086
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
Re: WOW
Re: Starship Trooper Review
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: WOW
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: GURPS Traveller news (via rec.games.frp.misc)
Re: MST3K
Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)
Re: Norris (Was:Re: Dulinor and Strephon)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Cargo Handler, TL12 corrected
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:27:00 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Trav Movie

Is anyone REALLY serious about a Traveller movie? I mean really?

If you are, talk to me privately. I want to know what you think....

You want to see a script? I can produce one. A script is not the problem. 

All the rest is the problem. But perhaps it could be done. Perhaps it IS
being done.

Like I said. Talk to me if you're really interested in the idea - more than
just the (highly funny) possible castings. I want to see the Traveller
movie. No, I want to WRITE it. But it's not that easy....

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:15:49 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: TML, ST, and me ranting again.

Seems to me that the TML is wandering off-topic. I got bored with the
Piracy thread a century ago, but at least it was Traveller. ST isn't.
Sorry, everyone, but surely enough is enough? OK so th movie looks little
like the book - what a surprise! I've heard it's a fun movie in a
gore-and-mass-death manner, and I've heard it's the antichrist incanate in
movie format, come to kick our dogs and steal our hamburgers. I daresay
I'll go to see it anyway. 

I liked the book, by the way. Once you get past that socio-political
comment stuff there's actually a good story in there. With violence, too.
It's a pity Heinlein was so misunderstood - He writes a good roming
blast-the-aliens-with-cool-hitech-gizmos story, and everyone
misunderstands. They stary looking for underlying neo-fascist undertones.

I could comment on the book, but I don't remember it well enough to make in
infprmed comment. I DO however, remember it better than somepeople who have
posted some way-off ideas about what happened in it. 

So here's a suggestion: If you can't remember the book properly, study it
before talking about it. Reading endless uninformed debate and the
corrections posted by those who CAN remember (but whose opinions I do not
necessarily agree with) is boring me. Can we talk about Traveller now,
please?

Here's a question for the gearheads among us:
Suppose I wanted to mess up the stellar magnetohydrodynamics of a system
(ie do bad things to stellar fusion), what element would I need to
introduce into a typical G-type star to cause a change in the fusion
reaction? Could I induce a mini-nova or vast planet-cleansing solar flare
by this method?

What sort of damage in Traveller terms might a large solar flare cause, and
what are the accompanying radiation effects?

The above post contains a significant tongue-in-cheek component. If you
can't recognise it - seek help immediately.

Ranting over. 
MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:43 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> MST3K?
> 
> Umm? What dat?

Mystery Science Theatre 3000. That's all I know about it; I've never
seen it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:48:57 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Evading laser fire

Actually not in reply but in the threads vein nevertheless.

If we assume that space combat will be about 100 000 km as the lightlag
calcs imply (ballpark figures here Nick, your assumtions made the ranges
even further out). How can we know the location of the ship when (1) We
cannot integrate (signal) for very long as this will add to our lightlag
and (2) We cannot resolve the ship very well (head calc of 5000 angstrom
min resolution with 10 m dish is 5 m at 100 000 km).

Could this (especially (2)) help us out a bit in our quest to reduce 100%
hit ranges? Perhaps Bruce Macintosh could give us a hand here?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:52:15 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Odd lifeforms   Was: Aslan Male/Female Ratio

>Most of these species died out, but one or two has descendants today. One o=
f
>these descendants is a group of worms that lives on muddy seabeds (i.e. in
>the same way as their ancestors did millions of years ago).
>
>Get a good book featuring these creatures, especially with pictures. They
>really get your imagination going alien.
>
>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)

I've read somewhere that these findings was one of the inspirational
sources for Lovecrafts mythos creatures.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:50:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcus Teter <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2086

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:58:57 -0600
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> >In mail you write:
> >
> >>  Heinlein saw a wonderful future paradise where fascism reigned, while
> >
> 	Sounds awfully like Johnny Rico, doesn't it :)?
> 
> 	However, IMHO, it's not classic fascism per se; just way, way, way
> too authoritarian for my tastes.  What really gets me is that the political
> system described in ST the book is largely contrary to the basic political
> ideals the U.S.A. was founded on; taxation without representation, absence
> of due process, and so forth.  Heinlein must have known this, and from what
> I understand of his politics, probably would have found this system
> somewhat reprehensible.  This is why I think that it was a sort of critical
> thinking test for his readers...
> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 
Also, it is clearly in context for what Heinlien was trying to do when he
wrote the book.  From the comments in 'Grumbles from the Grave' it seemed
that he fully intended to get fired from writing the Juvinile novels.  He
came up with a society that would offend the 'New York' sensibilities of
his editor at the time.  It is quite interesting that it managed to
accomplish what he set out to do: He was fired and he never wrote another
juvinile novel.
The Hugo was just a bonus prise.

OB trav: Is there any cannon alean race which have been molded by the
Aracnids of SST the Book?

Marcus A. Teter
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:08:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>Yeah, but it is the forces near the frontier that are going
>to contain units designated for attacking shipping in
>enemy space.

This may be useful to you both - IIRC it's mentioned in canon that the IIN
adopted a 'thin crust' 'strategy post Fourth Frontier War, with the heavy
elements grouped well back from the front. The ships deployed were lighter
and intended to slow down and identify the route of invaders. The IIN was
deployed defensively, trading space for the ability to identify and focus
where to best apply the forces. So the front line ships dispersed around
will be destroyers and other pickets, plus couriers.

Dom (who managed almost a week without posting on this topic).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WOW

In-Reply-To: <199711101926.UAA16106@student.liu.se>

Jens,

> >> >Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector
> (First Survey)?
> >> >
> >> >3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
> >> >
> >> government type of E (for which there's no entry in the T4
> manual; it's
> >
> >Isn't it some kind of Religious Dictatorship?
>  
> Nope. Religious dictatorship is D ... it's one more step up the
> ladder.

I looked it up:

E = Religious Autocracy

With a LL of E (police state), this place would make Afganistan look 
like a hippy commune...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Starship Trooper Review

In-Reply-To: <199711091909.OAA32101@server.catt.com>

> Directors are far more interested in keeping their film visually
> entertaining than militarily correct.  When the decision is made to either

The director of Heat hired an ex-SAS soldier to make sure the running-around 
- -with-big-guns-shooting-people scenes were right.

> The same thing goes for the aerodynamics questions and the social cause
> questions.  Folks, this is a movie.  It is nothing more.  The reason the
> drop ships looked clunky is probably ( as one person pointed out in jest )
> because they needed to do it that way for the film.  Probably had some
> boxes for troops to run out of and needed a way to CGI that into the film. 
> Thats all, no more.  They dont feel the need to be aerodynamicly correct
> for one major reason :  The director liked the way it looked.  

Ships can look cool *and* right - look at B5.

> Same goes for the Nazi style uniforms.  They look cool.  Thats it.  Thats
> all.  No underlying meaning.  Verhoeven did not want to make a fascist
> epic, he wanted uniforms that look cool.  Thats it.  Nothing more.

Verhoeven grew up in Holland during WW2 - the look-and-feel of ST is based on 
his experiences, along with wartime propaganda films.

And I notice nobody is complaining about the Nazi-style uniforms in Star 
Wars.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:15:23 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

In a message dated 97-11-11 23:46:09 EST, hdhale0@pop.uky.edu writes:

<< Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent. >>

This is not necessarily true, folks...if we can come up with a good
screenplay, someone will probably take an interest in it.  Independants make
great movies all the time, on shoestring budgets.  I realize this is an
exercise in humor, but there is no reason why a Traveller-based movie is not
doable.

Anyone out there know how to write?  I have tried numerous short stories, but
my writing style is too technical, I'm much better at writing procedures
manuals than fiction unfortunately.  There is literally 21 years of
background out there just waiting for someone to take pen (or keyboard) in
hand...

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:52 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: WOW

"Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> wrote:

> Has anyone noticed the world of Shaniin in Corridor sector (First Survey)?
>
> 3225  C226BEE-9    810 M1 V
>
> Do you realize that this world has 800 BILLION people!
>
> Cripes, that's more than some sectors!

Other population "B" worlds (reformatted to DGP standard):

DAGUDASHAAG
Irash         2512 B220BAD-C    Na In Po De Hi    500 ?? K2 V

DELPHI
Khakakir      0512 A000BDD-9    Na In As Hi Va    524 ?? G2 V M4 D
Sabaagiirar   1213 B767BAC-A    Hi                802 ?? K4 V M5 D M2 D

LISHUN
Gishgi        0626 A300BBB-B    Na In Hi Va       100 ?? K4 V
Leim Ku       2333 B360BC9-B    De Hi             412 ?? M9 D

MASSILIA
Shig          0510 B362BAB-8    Hi                404 ?? G2 V

These seven worlds have a total population of 3.5 trillion, an average
tech level per capita of 9.8 (for whatever that's worth).  The two in 
Delphi are only about seven parsecs apart, all are potentially
spacefaring, and both Gishgi and Khakakir should be able to build
starships.  Shaniin/Corridor and Sabaagiirar/Delphi are the two most
populous, at around 800 billion each.  The two worlds in Delphi alone
account for 1.3 trillion of that sector's population.

There's also a fair number of Gov code "F" (Totalitarian Oligarchy)
worlds listed in the data.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:42:35 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In a message dated 97-11-12 06:10:43 EST, rde@ican.net writes:

<< 	Think about how an S.S. Mann would describe life in Nazi Germany.
 The trains run on time, everything is newly prosperous after the post-WWI
 chaos, the Party is running everything in an orderly fashion, strict law
 and order (including capital punishment) is making Germany a safer place,
 and everything is just so peachy keen that he and his buddies are willing
 to train real hard, be incredibly well-disciplined and devoted to duty, and
 put their lives on the line to defend their Fatherland and Race.  And his
 face would be glowing and his eyes moist as he said it.  He'd be in total
 earnest, probably absolutely inspirational if he were a good public
 speaker, and the really scary evil stuff would just be glossed over or said
 so matter-of-factly that you'd probably do a triple-take ("was he serious
 about that bit about eliminating social parasitism WITH NERVE GAS?").
 
 	Sounds awfully like Johnny Rico, doesn't it :)? >>

My high school History teacher was was suspended for 2 weeks in 1986 for
saying in class that, in his opinion, if Adolf Hitler had died of a heart
attack in late 1937 or early 1938, he would be remembered as one of the
worlds greatest leaders.  I suppose if you can look at it from that angle, it
has at least a kernal of truth.  Germany HAD gone from a devastated,
defeated, bankrupt nation to very probably the world's first superpower in an
astonishingly short time.  It was the dark twisted side of Hitler's
personality that caused all the suffering.

The system envisioned in ST was a bit more authoritarian than we in the US
are used too...but nowhere is there even a hint that any race or minority is
in anyway persecuted.  And lets face it...the only reason our system is not
more restrictive is that it is too inefficient to work that way.   We may not
ever get anything done, but it also makes it very hard to achieve the kind of
control some people seem to fear.

Also (to stave off any misconceptions people may have about what I have said)
 I DO NOT in any way, shape or form condone the horrific brutality and
depravity of the Nazi regime...but they did have cool uniforms!  My (somewhat
convoluted) point is simply that authority is not necessarily a bad thing.  I
imagine the rules of my parents when I was a teen would make a classic case
study for a fascist system, but I think I am a better individual for having
had all those restrictions placed on me.

Anyway...just my random thoughts (and I truly hope no one was offended by
anything controversial I may have said)

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:06:20 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".

Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
_didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
from earning that right anyway.

Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
government of the Traveller universe).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:19:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "David P. Summers" <Summers@Alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:10:00 -0500 (EST),  DustyLV769@aol.com
><< As an aside.  This will not keep up.  Eventually a ship
> will end up tumbling end over end. >>

>Okay, I can see this...how long will this take?  If it's a matter of a few
>minutes, then I guess it would be no problem...but if it takes days (or more)
>it seems it would still pose a rescue problem.

It takes some time, but I don't know how long (weeks?, months?, years?), to
develop.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:28:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "David P. Summers" <Summers@Alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller news (via rec.games.frp.misc)

Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:40:13 GMT, jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>>How many dice will and FGMP-15 do, I wonder...

Well, in my GURPS Traveller article, I had it do 8dx8 (roll 8 dice and
multiply by
8).  That is what us GURPS veterans call "a lot".

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:45:22 -0600 (CST)
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: MST3K

>MST3K?
>
>Umm? What dat?

A television show that used to be (still is???) on the Comedy Central
network in the US. It features a man and his two puppet-robot companions
who are forced to sit through bad movies (most sf/fantasy/horror, although
I remember one biker flick) ostensibly as part of an experiment.

It basically consists of a showing of said bad movie, with the three
silhouetted at the bottom of the screen as though they are sitting in a
theater in front of you, making a (usually humorous) running commentary on
the film.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:33:33 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
> >only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
> >only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
> >it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
> 
> Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
> that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
> _didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
> power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
> from earning that right anyway.
> 
> Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
> Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
> government of the Traveller universe).

Although I agree with your worldview, I must disagree with your ObTrav.

It seems to me that in Traveller, those with authority are nobles, with
land and possessions. Those who are not noble, or have no part of the
Imperial bureacracy have no say in how the Imperium is governed.

What is the definition of a citizen in the Traveller Universe?

I guess as a starting point, it is any citizen of a member world of the
Imperium. The way each world defines citizenship can vary, but at least
some worlds may use Heinlein's definition offered in SST. OTOH, some
very democratic governments are member worlds also, and they may grant
"citizenship" rights to every sophont.

In fact, it could very well be that if you join an Imperial Career
(Navy, Scout, Marines, etc.) that that entitles you to become a citizen
of the Imperium, regardless of your homeworld's political status w.r.t.
the Imperium.

For example, if you come from a non-imperial client state and join the
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, you are granted automatically an
Imperial Citizenship (whatever that means).

So Starship Troopers may be a closer model of the Imperium than you
think!

Things for discussion:

1. What power does the Imperium have? (How much power? Power over what?)
2. Who really wields power, in day-to-day operations of the Imperium?
Nobles? Military? Bureaucracy? Corporate interests?
3. What is the definition of a "Citizen of the Imperium"?
4. What rights and responsibilities does Imperial Citizenship entail?
5. What rights and responsibilities do member world governments have?

Some of this stuff has been touched on a bit in the all-encompassing
piracy thread. I'm mainly interested in how people have interpreted
"canonical" sources, as opposed to how each person handles it in their
own campaign.

What sorts of things are in the Imperial Code of Law? I remember a few,
from canonical sources. No Murder (except Right of Assassination). No
Civilian Nuclear weapons. Mercenary Tickets. Imperial Edict 99 was
another, I think?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 20:43 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Norris (Was:Re: Dulinor and Strephon)

In-Reply-To: <v03007800b08e6b40b153@[199.184.183.193]>

John,

> With all the votes for Al Pacino and Jack Nicholson for Norris, I'd like to
> nominate the OBVIOUS choice:
>  
> Brian Blessed!
> Brian Blessed!!!!
> Brian Blessed!!!!!!!!

I suggested him last time this topic came up, and everybody went "who?"

[sigh]
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 20:43 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

In-Reply-To: <3468B94A.2352@sk.sympatico.ca>

Glenn,

> > Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>  
> I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
> off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
> Lucan should act the fool.

The guy who played Cartagia in B5?

> > Margaret  = Meryl Streep.
>  
> I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.

Helen Mirren?

> > We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?

Nah.

> I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor

Bit young, but could work. 

Sean Connery?

> Zhodani Noble = Jeremy Irons
>  
> I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
> more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
> pounds...

I still think Brian Blessed might work.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:59 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Cargo Handler, TL12 corrected

A Couple of corrections; dimensions, descriptive nits.

Cargo Loader (Walker) TL12

    Designed by Peter Brenton

Summary:
       0.50 displacement ton open-topped open frame; 8.45 tonnes; kCr 137
Chassis:
       7.00 kL open-topped open frame (2 m long x 2 m wide x 3 m
high [2.4 m high when stored]); Structure: 1.45 tonnes of superdense, rated
for 3.0Gs, body
       0.50 cm thick, 8 armour rating (operator's station is open and
unprotected)
Performance:
       1.20 MW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant; Fuel: 1.50 L of enriched water
(1.50 kg), 4 hours supply
       Propulsion System: 300 kW legs; Maximum Speed: 19 km/h; Range: 76
km; Agility: +2DM
Crew:
       Crew roster: driver; 1 crew station
       Grav Compensation (2G), Whole vehicle compensated
Communications:
       Subregional Radio (1 W, TL12, SmVcl)
Sensors:
       Active Subregional Optical (200 W, MultArray) Resolution: 0.020 mm
per km of range
Other:
       Safety Features: fire suppression system
       Construction Equipment: two arms can lift 24.0 tonnes


This is the latest version of the ubiquitous cargo loader found on board
every  merchant expected to unload cargo in wilderness areas or  visiting
starports which have a waiting list for use of local unloaders or
equipment. Although the industrial lifting arms can technically lift 24
tonnes, this would unbalance the walking loader unless otherwise affected.
The gravitic compensators are mounted so as to reduce the weight of the
cargo (optimised for standard 4 displacement ton cargo containers) as it is
carried, making lifting capacity theoretically unlimited as long as the
cargo is within the area of the field.

 Capacity is effectively limited to about 20 tonnes due to considerations
of momentum and inertia.  In the event that the grav compensators are not
usable, straight lifting capacity is limited to less than 8 tonnes for
cargos not directly over the feet of the loader.  Note that it requires an
experienced operator to effectively use the gravitic operation of this
vehicle.  During operation the effective weight of the cargo is reduced,
not eliminated, so that the loader will behave in a fashion more consistent
with the inertia of the cargo carried (greater weight=3Dgreater surface
friction).

 The arms are mounted to allow them to slide into standard lifting points
on either side of the end of a cargo container, and are shaped to fit
between two containers even when stored at their closest.

=46ootprint is as small as possible while staying within the 3 meter height
of the smallest cargo bays.  When stored, the loader assumes a "crouching"
inactive position which lowers the height to 2.4 meters.  The vehicle as
delivered is painted with a Yellow and Black "Danger" pattern and is
equipped with a rotating warning light on top of the operators cab.
Options include a vacuum package, an array of attachable tools including an
arc welder, and remote operation electronics and sensors.

In a pinch, this vehicle has been known to be used as a last ditch
self-defense weapon.  There is no armor for the operator, however, and,
although the lifting arms are fully articulated, they are not optimised as
weapons.  This use in not recommended by the manufacturer.

Designed with CSC (software =A9Robert Prior, 1997)

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:55:39 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-11-11 23:46:09 EST, hdhale0@pop.uky.edu writes:
>
> << Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent. >>
>
> This is not necessarily true, folks...if we can come up with a good
> screenplay, someone will probably take an interest in it.  Independants make
> great movies all the time, on shoestring budgets.  I realize this is an
> exercise in humor, but there is no reason why a Traveller-based movie is not
> doable.
>

 We can't even agree on the canon features (like Piracy) of Traveller - can you
imagine the flame wars that writing a script would generate?!  (Imagine the
discussion that will surround the love interest for the Aslan Ambassador, or did
we just have that...?)   8D


- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2089
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 12 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2090



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fwd: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 5 days
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Dune
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: the Imperial Horror Picture Show (was Re: Dulinor and Strephon)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)
Re: MST3K
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089
Re: WOW
re Aslant Male/Female ratio & relations
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: MST3K
ST society

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:22:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 5 days

- ---------------------
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To:	Kagehira@AOL.com
Date: 97-11-09 23:21:25 EST

The original message was received at Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:19:05 -0800
from quark.qrc.com [198.178.200.5]

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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:03:49 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971104205913_1312671313@mrin44.mail.aol.com>
To: travellers-digest@mpgn.com, gdw-beta@qrc.com
cc: Kagekiha@aol.com
Subject: CD-ROM project


      Okay folks, I've got an early Christmas present for the list on top of
Marc's previous one (holding the Alien book back for fixes and T4.1).

       You know that CD-ROM that everyone wants? Well, he's given me
permission to try and put one together for I.G. (but don't expect it for this
Christmas, if you're extremely lucky, maybe, just maybe next Christmas). I've
reviewed the previous CD-ROM want list and I have a pretty good idea of what
I'd like to see.

      Right now I have a need for a few more volunteers, preferably with
scanners and software that can import into PDF, HTML and text (though
admittedly text is the prime concern so far, but if I can do all three at the
same time I want to try and do that). Of course access to the old material
wouldn't hurt either. And maybe someone familiar with PDF and HTML.

      Along with that I wouldn't mind having some software to stick on the
CD, useable by either Mac's or PC's. But I'd prefer tested software (I have a
fair amount in my archives, some of which have been tested. By testing I mean
testing so it works and that the data it uses is correct. So if I can get a
group of volunteers 
do that that part it would be nice.

       And in regards to the software, I want the best of the best (Rob's
Metator and CSC definitely qualify, as does the Galactic software).

     The only payment I can promise for the volunteers is credit and a copy
of the CD. For those donating software I can only promise credit, but I'll
see if I can get you a copy (actually I expect I should be able to do it with
no problem).

      Please email me privately in the case of volunteers at
Kagekiha@aol.com.

      For those that might have material scanned in already and want to
volunteer it, I'm looking for PDF, HTML and text formats.

     Along with that I wouldn't mind seeing a discussion of enhancements
modifications that might be made to the UPP.

Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:01:14 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>> > Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>>
>> I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>> off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>> Lucan should act the fool.
>
>The guy who played Cartagia in B5?

Oh, yes!  He was such a petulant little bloodthirsty nutter!  I loved that
character!

>> > Margaret  = Meryl Streep.
>>
>> I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.
>
>Helen Mirren?

Too... _nice_, it seems to me.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:01:02 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dune

Semo wrote:

>Actually, one thing the movie Dune had that was better then the book was
>the idea of the "Wierding Modules".
>
>If the Director's cut of Dune were mixed with the final cut, the movie
>would be a lot better.  And lose the damned idiotic scenes of Baron
>having his skin skewered and the others with him flying around and
>around laughing.  Painful to watch Mr. Herbert's work destroyed like
>this.

Aw, come on, the Harkonens were the best thing about that film.  Besides
Sean Young in latex fetishwear, I mean.  It's really rare anyone has the
nerve to show grinning, happy, laughing Evil on the screen like that.
Sure, they made you want to crawl under the seat and puke, but they had
VERVE, man!

ObTrav:  The set design and costuming of the movie _Dune_ are, I think,
great inspiration for Milieu Zero and the later Third Imperium.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:54:22 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:30:32 -0600 (CST), you wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
><snip>
>>In short, you can live your life quite happily and successfully without
>>having the vote, but to get the franchise (and the reserved jobs) you have
>>to give something.. a couple of years of your life to service.
>I got the impression (note it has also been years since I read the
>book) that MI or Fleet weren't the only options for federal service.

They weren't. The military still needed administrative types,
mechanics, intelligence, etc. Federal service didn't mean you were
risking life and limb in combat; just that you had performed service
in the military. 

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:00:56 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: the Imperial Horror Picture Show (was Re: Dulinor and Strephon)

Peter Newman wrote:

[snip]
>Emperor Strephon - Tim Robbins (a la Bob Roberts)
>Empress Iolanthe - Liza Minelli (if she can stay sober long enough)

or heck, even if she can't...

>Duchess Margaret - Bette Middler

dear god...

>Archduke Norris - Lyle Lovett (he'd need to gain some weight)
>Seldrian - k.d. lang

The genetic relationship would seem improbable, then -- best to just have
one or the other of them play both roles.

>Archduke Brzk - Paul Simon (maybe Frankie Valli for the high pitched
>voice alone...)

this is getting too vivid for me...

>Margaret's evil sidekick (ie her Husband ?) - Jonathan Pryce (Evita)

definitely!


>If the (very hypothetical) Traveller movie was done as a musical commedy
>Tim Curry (as seen in Rocky) might make a good Lucan but he is a bit old
>for the part today.  Naturally if it is done as a musical commedy I
>would expect it to include my adaptation of The Lord High Executioners
>song from Gilbert and Sullivans Mikado as I inflicted on (er, posted
>too) this list a few months ago and that Doug has made available on his

Which was, I meant to say, one of the funniest things I've seen on the list
- -- intentionally funny, I mean.  How about an adaptation of Brecht's
_Dreigroschen Oper_?  Mackie can be a pirate... if that's possible in the
Third Imperium, I mean.  What do you guys think?

<edging towards door>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:01:08 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>>
>> >> Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>> >
>> >I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>> >off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>> >Lucan should act the fool.
>>
>> I'm leaning towards Malkovich -- Curry couldn't menace a Boy Scout.  Or how
>> about Malcolm McDowell?  "Come, droogies, let us all itty Core-wards..."
>
>That's exactly my point! ;-) I've always pictured Lucan as a petulant
>overachiever. The kind who *thinks* he's menacing, but is only menacing
>due to the power he has...

Yeah, I see your point.

>> >> We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?
[snip]
>That's interesting! I was thinking Hopkins too. I thought people wanted
>someone younger...

Nah, isn't Strephon in his 120s around the time of the Rebellion?

>> >I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
>> >more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
>> >pounds...
>>
>> DeNiro!  DeNiro!
>>
>> "Who are you elevating to Archduke?  Who?  Huh?  Who you elevating?  Must
>> be me -- I don't see anyone else here."
>
>"To stop Virus, we have to be a team. You know what happens if we don't
>work as a team?" <wielding baseball bat>
>
>Hmmmm... no.

Why NOT, man?  Isn't Norris the great war hero and all that, too?

As far as Brian Blessed for the role goes -- I do know who he is, and like
his work fine, but I can _only_ see him as the roaring Cossack/Viking type
- -- not the genteel, charismatic aristocrat.  Pacino might indeed be
preferable to DeNiro, though, on second thought...

Speaking of the Marches -- who would play Admiral Santanocheev?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:39:48 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> It seems to me that in Traveller, those with authority are nobles, with
> land and possessions. Those who are not noble, or have no part of the
> Imperial bureacracy have no say in how the Imperium is governed.
> 

Yep. That's how I do things too. Except I add that the guy with the
biggest gun wins! :-)

> What is the definition of a citizen in the Traveller Universe?
> 
> I guess as a starting point, it is any citizen of a member world of the
> Imperium. The way each world defines citizenship can vary, but at least
> some worlds may use Heinlein's definition offered in SST. OTOH, some
> very democratic governments are member worlds also, and they may grant
> "citizenship" rights to every sophont.
> 

That's also how I do things. However, being an Imperial citizen seems
to be meaningless unless you're outside the Imperium, because 
Imperial citizens can't vote. I'm a Canadian citizen and nobody cares
about that except during elections and when I'm travelling abroad.

So, I don't think that the Imperium would place a great deal of 
importance on being a citizen. In fact, they might just keep it simple
and say that only Soc B+ people are citizens.

Thoughts?

> In fact, it could very well be that if you join an Imperial Career
> (Navy, Scout, Marines, etc.) that that entitles you to become a citizen
> of the Imperium, regardless of your homeworld's political status w.r.t.
> the Imperium.
> 

I like this idea but I can't find a benefit for it. If someone comes
up with a good reason to be an Imperial citizen, then I'll probably
institute this.

> 1. What power does the Imperium have? (How much power? Power over what?)

What kind of power are we talking about? I guess I don't understand
the question.

> 2. Who really wields power, in day-to-day operations of the Imperium?
> Nobles? Military? Bureaucracy? Corporate interests?

In day-to-day operations it is the nobles. However, the influence that
the corporate types have upon the nobles is great. Many of the nobles
are really puppets being controlled by the megacorporations.

> 3. What is the definition of a "Citizen of the Imperium"?

See earlier discussion.

> 4. What rights and responsibilities does Imperial Citizenship entail?

If Imperial citizens get their status from their occupations, then
their rights and responsibilities should be greater than if they
get the status from birth location. Basically, the more effort required
to get a citizenship, the greater the rewards and responsibilities.
So, what I'm saying is, we need to answer #3 first.

> 5. What rights and responsibilities do member world governments have?

This is easier. They must designate plots of land for starports, 
embassies and possibly fiefdoms. They must allow Imperial ships, 
especially military ones, freedom of passage through their systems.
They must abide by some basic laws. The one that comes to mind is
the "aid ships emitting signal GK or SOS" one but I'm sure there are
others. Stuff like raiding foreign vessels is out.

> What sorts of things are in the Imperial Code of Law? I remember a few,
> from canonical sources. No Murder (except Right of Assassination). No
> Civilian Nuclear weapons. Mercenary Tickets. Imperial Edict 99 was
> another, I think?

Repatriation bonds should be honored. Local military shouldn't use
nukes either, if any Imperial property could be affected by it.

The murder one is tricky. In our western culture, murder is illegal,
yet there are distinctions made between murder and justifiable killing.
The line separating the two might be different from one system to 
another.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:16:44 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: MST3K

At 01:45 PM 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>MST3K?
>>
>>Umm? What dat?
>
>A television show that used to be (still is???) on the Comedy Central
>network in the US.

It is now on the SciFi channel, and going strong.

> It features a man and his two puppet-robot companions
>who are forced to sit through bad movies (most sf/fantasy/horror, although
>I remember one biker flick) ostensibly as part of an experiment.
>
>It basically consists of a showing of said bad movie, with the three
>silhouetted at the bottom of the screen as though they are sitting in a
>theater in front of you, making a (usually humorous) running commentary on
>the film.

I find it one of the funniest shows on TV.  If it in your area, take a look.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:20:51
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089

At 04:08 PM 12/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-------------------
>
>Things for discussion:
>
>1. What power does the Imperium have? (How much power? Power over what?)

The power of the Imperium comes from two things. Firstly, a bigger and
meaner navy than any of it's member worlds or neighbours, and secondly the
links between the Imperium and the Imperial Megacorporations via the
Imperial Family's shareholdings.

>2. Who really wields power, in day-to-day operations of the Imperium?
>Nobles? Military? Bureaucracy? Corporate interests?

The four are often, or indeed usually, linked through family, or the same
people.

I think a close reading of Marc Bloch's Feudal Society is useful here - one
of his points that the feudal societies of medieval France were in fact a
number of different but linked societies - the Church, the manors, the
Royal bureaucracy and the towns all had their own, different, power
structures.

Putting that OB Trav, lets look at a subsector, and see who the major
players would be ...

First of all, the IN Fleet Admiral and her staff. She is a person everybody
stays nice to, both for obvious reasons and because the IN spends a lot of
credits on various things.

Secondly, various families who control the private corporate interests in
the subsector. These interests will often or usually be allied to one of
the Imperium-wide megacorps, and provide local knowledge and resources to
them.

Thirdly, the local Megacorp reps. Megacorps would probably have different
managerial structures and styles - do all LSP reps report to one Subsector
Manager, or do the Mining people report to the Mining Division, the
Industrial people report to Industrial Division etc ?

Fourthly, the Imperial Ministry of Justice rep, if just becasue Imperial
Audits, if not common, are exteremly uncomfortable things - unlimited,
open-ended Imperial Warrants and all that.

Fifthly, the heads of government in the important worlds. These may or may
not be the same people as in group two. I am reminded of one of Harry
Truman's letters, where he was trying to sort out a Democratic party
internal fight in New York - he suggested a meeting between the people
concerned, and the head of Tammany Hall (the Democratic party HQ in New
York City). He didnt who the current Tammany boss was, but he knew they had
to be invited :)

Sixthly, the local Imperial nobility. Again, these will often be the same
people as the above groups - I dont know about you, but the Duke of Whatsit
sounds like a good choice to hire as a Reserve Fleet Commander. These
people may or may now own Imperial Starports in fief from the Emperor -
personally, I'd tend away from this model, because you want to encourage
interstellar trade, not tax it. IMO starports are paid for as a line-item
out of Planetary Taxes, which are levied as a percentage of GWP, as per MoJ
schedules and as verified by Imperial Audits.

Finally, any local Imperium-wide celebrities. I am thinking of a case where
you have someone equivalent to Gabriel Garcia Marquez on a world - even if
they arent important, if people on Capital (especially Imperial Family-type
people) read what they write, then being nice to them and respecting their
views is a good idea (after all, you dont want to get star billing as the
bad guy in their next novel slash thinly described commentary on Corruption
in the Frontier, do you ?).
 
>3. What is the definition of a "Citizen of the Imperium"?

Legally, Citizen of the Imperium isnt a particularily operative concept.
The base unit of the Imperium is the memeber world, not the individual
citizen.

>4. What rights and responsibilities does Imperial Citizenship entail?

See above.

>5. What rights and responsibilities do member world governments have?

You get a vote at the Moot. You have to co-operate with Imperial authority,
and pay your taxes. Oh yeah, and enforce the edicts against piracy, slavery
and civilian-owned nukes. And dont think the IN likes you having Nukes
either. After all, we know where those bastards get nukes and MilSpec
weapons off - yeah, corrupt planetary officials. After all, the difference
between a Planetary Navy Commodore and a beer is there are starport bars
where you cant buy a beer.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:39:15 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: WOW

>I looked it up:
>
>E =3D Religious Autocracy
>
>With a LL of E (police state), this place would make Afganistan look=20
>like a hippy commune...

Where did you look this up? It's not in the T4 rulebook in any case
(although the law levels B+ are desribed as increasingly more controlled
variants of A).

Are there more government descriptions and law level descriptions where you
got this stuff? I think I could use it (appearantly First survey uses these
codes).

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:08:55 +1100
From: "DOWLING,Shane" <shane.dowling@deetya.gov.au>
Subject: re Aslant Male/Female ratio & relations

>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:11:19 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

In mail you write:

> Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be odder.
>
> * Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd.  Duck-billed
>   platapuses (platypi?) are odd.

Does this count

The Platypus Frog that has the young growing in the stomach and has the
gastric juices "turned off" for that period.

The females Kangaroo's can have a joey in the pouch and be pregnant with
the next one and control the growth of the foetus , so in droughts she
can totally stop the growth till things improve.

The Echidna (Spiny Ant Eater) and Platypus are mammals that lay eggs and
raise the young on milk.   The Echidna has a pouch in which the young is
raised while the Platypus's young are raised in a burrow.  

Shane
I came I saw I fished

Score
Fish: 0 
Me: Pleasantly Plastered 
Esky: Empty  
Recycle Bin : Full

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:21:45 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>
   
   Hi.
   
> From: SemoFetus@aol.com
   
>>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
   
> Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
> that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
> _didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
> power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
> from earning that right anyway.
   
> Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
> Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
> government of the Traveller universe).
   
   I'm not so sure that this explains any difference between your
   worldview and Heinlein's.  One of the points to the Service in ST
   which made it very different from our property requirements was that
   it was unappealing to the establishment. Remember that Rico's father,
   a successful businessman, was against Rico's joining the service.
   After all, if you `wasted' two years of your life serving people, then
   you lost two years of earning potential, or college potential, or
   party potential, or whatever.
   
   So the service requirement was a bigger disincentive to the
   establishment than to the underclass (who have less to lose by
   service), and tended to emphasize the underclass in the electorate.
   The very people who, you say, need the vote the most got it the most.
   It was mentioned in the book in several places that the franchise and
   material success did not go hand-in-hand; if anything, the franchise
   was associated with poverty. Remember Rico's poor, underpaid, Moral
   Philosophy teacher?
   
   Also note that non-franchise holders were still citizens, in the same
   sense that non-voters (minors) in our society are still citizens.
   Minors have the same protection under the law that voters have, the
   rights to free speech under the law, and the same rights to due
   process.  The fact that their earnings get taxed though they cannot
   vote does not make us fascists. 
   
   You mentioned in your statement `an ideal world,' which is a very
   relevant notion to any discussion of ST.  Was Heinlein promoting the
   form of government he portrayed in his book?  Probably not. It entails
   too many practical difficulties.  Was it fascist?  Certainly not.
   Unworkable maybe, but not fascist.
   
   Someone compared Rico to an idealistic SS man in Nazi Germany.  There
   are no similarities between the two.  Rico was more like a full-time
   volunteer for Americorps, the Peace Corps, a foreign mission, or an
   inner-city school, someone who puts his life on hold in order to help
   his society. (Granted the service he wound up in was flashier than any
   of those things.  He was in an adventure story after all.)  He wanted
   first to serve, and second to gain the franchise.
   
   The SS were attracted to the ideals of power, glamor, reputation, and
   being in the in-group.  /Helping/ their country was just the icing
   that let them strut self-righteously; /showing off/ their country was
   what they were really about.  Germans who wanted to help their country
   in WWII joined the regular armed forces, worked for peanuts in the
   factories or, very rarely, resisted the government.  They did not
   squander their talents on the SS.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:56:59 -0500
From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk@alink.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >MST3K?

> 
> A television show that used to be (still is???) on the Comedy Central
> network in the US. It features a man and his two puppet-robot companions
> who are forced to sit through bad movies (most sf/fantasy/horror, although
> I remember one biker flick) ostensibly as part of an experiment.

<lurker mode off>

The show is currently on the Sci-Fi Channel and now mainly does only
"sci-fi" shows.  IMO it's not as good as when Joel and Dr. Forrester
were on, but it has improved from a year or so ago.  However almost all
of the Comedy Central episodes are unavailable (a few are on vhs) as
Comedy Central no longer shows their episodes and the Sci-Fi Channel can
only air the new episodes made for the Sci-Fi Channel.  The offical
MST3K on the Sci-Fi Channel site is at:

  http://www.scifi.com/mst3000/

Yahoos section on MST3K : (one continuous line)

http://www.yahoo.com/News_and_Media/Television/Shows/
Science_Fiction__Fantasy__and_Horror/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000/

> 
> It basically consists of a showing of said bad movie, with the three
> silhouetted at the bottom of the screen as though they are sitting in a
> theater in front of you, making a (usually humorous) running commentary on
> the film.

Trying to find what movie/book/etc. that the jokes come from is part of
the fun.  If you haven't seen the show yet, by all means find someone
who has an episode on tape or catch it on TV.  There is a MST3K: The
Movie as well (now on videotape), which although it has Mike (who
replaced the original Joel as the human part of the experiment) and the
bots, is quite funny. (the movie is This Island Earth)

"Join us, join us."

Kevin




BTW, only having gotten back into Traveller this year, I assume that FFS
was dedicated to the crew of the Satellite of Love, right? <ducks
quickly while wielding Elder Sign>

Hum, perhaps the SOL might visit the Traveller universe sometime... (hey
if there could be a Traveller Movie, why not an episode of MST3K as
well?)

</back to lurker mode>

  "Push the button Frank."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:48:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: ST society

> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:06:20 -0500 (EST)
> From: SemoFetus@aol.com
> 
> >In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
> >only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
> >only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
> >it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
> 
> Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
> that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
> _didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
> power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
> from earning that right anyway.
> 
> Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
> Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
> government of the Traveller universe).

I'm not sure you understand the fundamental difference in the ST society:
*Anyone*, regardless of background, wealth, race, intelligence, or any
other factor, could obtain the franchise simply by performing public
service for two years.  *Nobody* obtained the franchise in any other way.
This removes the power-concentrating, haves-and-have-nots effect of the
old property-based franchise.

In my view, this is an entirely reasonable idea; what it says, in effect,
is that only those willing to contribute voluntarily to the good of
society get a say in how society is run.

ObTrav:  I would suggest that many worlds in the Imperium practice the
same form of government, of course with endless variations.  Democracy,
the various bureaucracies, balkanization, and perhaps other forms of
government can all exist using this form of franchise qualification.

Also, the Imperium itself operates in somewhat the same way with respect
to its member worlds.  In order to obtain the benefits of membership in
the Imperium, each world accepts various responsibilities (tax collection,
provision of basing facilities if needed, cooperation in enforcing
Imperial law, presumably participation in a central-banking scheme, and so
forth).

In my mind, what ST and several other Heinlein works are 'about' is the
balance between freedom and responsibility, an inextricable pair.  In
Heinlein's view (as I understand it), and in mine, modern US society is
characterized by freedom being emphasized at the expense of
responsibility.  ST is (in part) an attempt to show a society where
responsibility is more prominent. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2090
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2091



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How long is a piece of string?
The Politics of ST...
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: evading laser fire
Possible use for FF&S2 recoil numbers?
MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089
Design Assistant ?
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord
Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:09:21 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

At 09:58 AM 11/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>re Invention within the Traveller setting???
>
>> How about a competition amoung the TML'ers to see who can design a
>> deployable mechanism that would overcome the week delay. The winner
>*	will be showered with kudos by all.
>
>Here is my attempt at a FTL communication system. 
>
>All you need is a long, a very long piece of string and an 2 elastic
>bands. The piece of string will stretch from one system to another and
>is attached to a base station in each system by the elastic band.
>
>Communication is now simple and almost instant. A quick tug of the
>string is a 0 and a slow tug of the string can be a 1. Using simple
>Morse code complex messages can be communicated quickly.
>
>Minor details like finding a material strong enough to stretch across
>the reaches of space, and so on, can be left to the engineers.
>
>There is an improved version of this system which encloses the string in
>a tube. This version became know as the Tube Communication System or TCS
>for short.
>
>
>Tony
>
	I couldn't decide if this was real or not. But, what the heck!

	In order to use the string to signal you apply (I presume) a little
	"tension" to the string (you stretch it). You then apply a vibration 
	to the string in order that the "tension" in the string be propogated 
	to the next system (you send a sinusoidal wave through the string to
	the next system. Not bad!

	But the wave can't move faster than the speed of light (in order to 
	do so, some real piece of string must move faster than light which
	will not happen), so the wave will move at less than light speed to 
	the new system. If it is 1 parsec away, then your signal should arrive
	in something more than 3 years.

	On the other hand, the more I think about it, the better I like it.

	Think of all that string, strung (as it were) throughout the Imperium.
	Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . . 

	A project for the gearheads might be a calculation of the mass of string
	required for what I suppose we'd have to call a complete communications 
	net. I really like this!


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:45:24 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: The Politics of ST...

	I suppose that before I begin, I should state my opinion of the
political system RAH described in ST (the book; I will not refer to that
abortion of a movie as Verhoeven IMHO slightly exaggerated the fascist
aspects of the book).  This way, it'll be clear what I'm saying and this
thread won't turn into a classic net.exercise of us launching all-out
nuclear assaults on the wrong positions only to find out nobody was at home
:).

	Essentially, I think that the political system in ST, although not
strictly fascist, is strongly authoritarian (by my social deomcratic
libertarian <grin> standards anyhow), and is arguably an inferior one to
current Western democracy on several grounds.

	That being said...



Leonard Erickson wrote:

>
>In mail you write:
>
>>         Limited franchise just for starters.  Substitute "Party Member" for
>> "Veteran" and things get a little spooky.
>
>There is the notable difference that the "limited" franchise is limited
>only by the desire to do *something* for the government for a couple of
>years. It's *not* limited to *military* service. For a contemporary
>example, serving a hitch in the Peace Corps or Postal Service would do
>just as well.


	Limited franchise (in the loosest sense; having some access or the
potential for access to political power), involving various forms of public
service, is common to many totalitarian regimes.  The Nazis weren't all SS
or SA; they also had any number of auxiliary organizations; labour corps,
youth groups, academics, and so forth.  They were pretty big on service to
the Volk.  Ditto the Chinese Communist Party.  IMHO, this is pretty
suspect.  Two or more years of living in a total institution (recall those
"last free choice for the next two years" lines, presumably undergoing a
fair bit of indoctrination, before getting access to the franchise, ought
to iron out the troublemakers...  especially as those gaining access have a
vested interest in maintaining the system as a universal franchise would
dilute their voting power.


>
>>         However, IMHO, it's not classic fascism per se; just way, way, way
>> too authoritarian for my tastes.
>
>I didn't notice it being all that authoritarian.


	Limited franchise, capital punishment, emphasis on corporal
punishment... it sounds a lot more like Singapore than it does Sweden to me
:).

>
>>  What really gets me is that the political
>> system described in ST the book is largely contrary to the basic political
>> ideals the U.S.A. was founded on; taxation without representation, absence
>> of due process, and so forth.
>
>I suggest that you study both history and the book again. There *was*
>due process in the book!


	Of sorts.  Not, IMHO, as I, a legally trained individual, would
understand it.  Nazi Germany, after all, having inherited a long and strong
civil law tradition, had a court system, with a complete set of procedural
rules...  but what that process produced was not justice as you or I would
understand it.  It takes more than a pretty courtroom and a code of
procedure to produce justice; what's being enforced must be just to begin
with.  It's easy to design a legal system that presents the appearance of
due process but whose substantive law is sufficient to have the accused
practically condemned before he steps into the courthouse.

	Remember that the justice system in ST grew out of vigilante
justice imposed by mobs of returned veterans lacking duly constituted legal
authority, and that it operates in a system where civil rights are held in
low regard... viz. Col. Dubois's speech about the drowning man in the
Pacific Ocean.

	Which brings me to Heinlein's concept of rights, or at least the
concept of rights that Dubois exposes; it's fundamentally mistaken and
completely fallacious.  It's the equivalent of trying to analyse a social
situation using electromagnetism as a paradigm.

	Rights are a purely social and legal phenomenon; of course they
cannot be invoked against oceans and so forth.  They're only claims upon
the behaviour of one's fellow citizens, matched by corresponding duties on
their part.  Of course I can't invoke my property rights as a tornado blows
my pickup across the county line... but I can invoke them against a car
thief and press charges and sue him for damages.  Rights are social
protection; for protection against twisters I build a storm cellar.
Heinlein had Dubois set up a straw man.

	Of course, being social and legal constructs, unless you're a
natural law theorist, rights don't exist outside a given legal system.
Being a positivist, I think that human rights are entirely legal creations,
brought into existence by the various Bills, Declarations, and Charters
that frame them.  I do not believe in any natural law underpinning human
law that gives rights some nebulous existence outside the frameworks of the
legal systems in which they operate.

	However, I think that the concept of rights is one of the most
significant  intellectual developments in human history; I don't think it's
a coincidence that the most successful, advanced, and prosperous societies
in human history subscribe to it.  And I think that aside from the various
liberal (in the classic sense, not the debased sense current in U.S.
political slang) arguments for human rights being pragmatically useful, I
think that they're morally speaking essential for any society that wishes
to call itself just.  If nothing else, the most heinous regimes in history
have held human rights in low regard.

	Unfortunately, we don't know whether the Terran Federation has a
Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  However, given Col. Dubois' speech on
rights, I suspect that they are not held in high regard.  As well (and bear
in mind that the US is AFAIK the only western democracy still to use the
death penalty), the TF justice system's use of capital punishment is not a
telling point in its favour; it shows a great deal of disregard for _the_
fundamental human right.

	So either Heinlein was fundamentally ignorant of what rights were
(which I have a hard time believing), or he was setting up a vision of
rights that a freshman philosophy student could blow clean out of the
water.  I think that he was doing the latter, in the expectation that the
more discerning reader would twig to what he was doing.


>And the franchise was equally (though
>differently) limited in the US for decades. So the taxation without
>representation but either applies to *both* or neither.


	Both it is then.  Remember, democracy as we know it did not spring
into existence in its current form... it's evolved.  A notable example is
the extension of the franchise to women.  Please don't think that I'm
setting up Western civilization's concept of democracy as perfect; I think
we've got a ways to go yet before we get it right.


>
>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".


	Ye gods!  I am appalled.  Frankly, RAH couldn't have thought that
one through.  What about the case of the ditzy, debauched, no-good lush
who's never worked a day in his life who inherits a vast estate from his
father?  How is he more deserving than a skilled, hard-working tradesman
who unfortunately doesn't own enough land to qualify for the franchise?
Didn't he realize that depriving the poor of political clout (even if it's
purely symbolic) is what's led to every single major revolution that I can
think of?

	Which brings me to the irrationality of the franchise system in ST.
Apparently, two years of shovelling dirt in Antarctica will get you the
franchise.  However, Johnny Rico's father, a businessman whose activity
provides employment for a large number of people, whose disposable income
provides support for many other individuals in various sectors, and whose
business therefore must provide goods or services that society finds
extremely valuable, cannot vote.

	The only justification provided for this is that the labour
battalion veteran has, well, signed up for Federal service and shovelled
some dirt, thereby putting his life, or at least his big toes, on the line
in order to provide holes in the ground in Antarctica (or something) for
his society.  However, IMHO, Rico Sr.'s contribution to society is hands
down much greater.  So basically, the limitation on the franchise appears
to be ideological or political, since it's not exactly rational... which,
again, smacks of fascism.


>
>> Heinlein must have known this, and from what
>> I understand of his politics, probably would have found this system
>> somewhat reprehensible.
>
>You obviously haven't read some of his essays. Nor the article where he
>mentions that he dropped work on Stranger in a Strange Land to write
>Starship Troopers because of his worries about the way the country was
>going. This was about the same time he founded the Patrick Henry Society.
>


	Actually, now that you mention it, I do recall reading some of
them, in Past Through The Future (?).  I found some of them howlingly
funny, although I suspect that he was dead serious...  However, the
recollection I kept was that he was something of a U.S. patriot, if
somehwat more libertarian than the norm.


>> This is why I think that it was a sort of critical
>> thinking test for his readers...
>
>It was. You failed. :-)


	Really..?  I suppose I should explain my "critical thinking test"
comment:  The political system in ST is dressed up in a ripping good SF
yarn calculated to appeal to an audience of impressionable young males,
especially those steeped in U.S. culture, and presented in the voice of a
very sympathetic narrator, written so that said audience can easily
identify with him, whose character is deeply committed to the preservation
of said system.  He makes ringing appeals to laudable values, such as
defending humanity, the admirable valour of those bearing arms in defense
of their own, etc.

	However, the political system in question is also, IMHO as I've
outlined above, contra some of the basic principles the U.S. was built
around... and Heinlein was pretty darn attached to the U.S. IIRC.  And did
I mention the TF's origins in gangs of armed veterans bearing a remarkable
resemblance to the post WWI German Freikorps?

	Basically, I have a hard time believing that Heinlein was serious
about the system described in ST.  Rico's narrative is just begging to have
us read between the lines, and I think that that is what Heinlein was
hoping the audience would do (I could be reading too much into his
motivations here, though).  I suspect (although I could be wrong) that he
deliberately wrote the book as he did so that the more discerning readers
would pick up on the problems with the political system it describes
(either on reading or as adults), and realize how the great story, appeals
to valour and responsibility, and so forth, were really masking a pretty
nasty political system that was somewhat at odds with the values of the
society they'd grown up in.

	The experience, would, therefore lead to severe honing of the
reader's bullshit detection faculties, and, also, lead the reader to
re-examine the values that he believed in himself...  thereby promoting a
certain amount of free thinking, which, I think, RAH valued.

	I've always wondered what he thought of the fans who took H&MP so
seriously...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:26:21 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

At 02:06 PM 11/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
>
>Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
>that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
>_didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
>power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
>from earning that right anyway.
>
>Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
>Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
>government of the Traveller universe).
>
>Semo
>
	I'm not certain that I disagree with you; on the other hand,
	why would you say that those who didn't own land or have a 
	profession have any greater 'need' for the vote than anyone 
	else might have.

	And when you say that power is being kept 'out of the hands of the
	people' are you intending to imply that 'people' don't presently 
	have that power; or that those who don't presently have it, have some 
	'greater' intrinsic right to hold power than those who do now have
	power.

	I can't dispute your claims since I'm not certain of what you 
	are claiming.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:48:29 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: evading laser fire

>Perhaps Bruce Macintosh could give us a hand here?

(applause.)

(Pardon me.)

It's true that sensors don't really resolve targets; a fire-control lock
in the new sensor rules typically means a resolution of 100m or so (with a 
accuracy in measuring the position of that blurry blob to 1m), so you don't
actually know which way the target is facing unless you have a very high 
signal sensor lock.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:36:37 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Possible use for FF&S2 recoil numbers?

	How about as a negative die modifier for successive shots in the
same round?  EG: first shot with a recoil 2 weapon is made with no penalty;
second shot is made with -2DM.  Third shot; -4DM.  Fourth shot: -6DM.
Fifth shot: -8DM, and so on.

	For two-handed weapons, the recoil is divided by 2 and rounded up
and applied as a -DM.

	Comments?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:01:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

In another post, someone mentioned the possibility of MSTing Traveller..
thought I'd start...

DR. FORRESTER: Bad Evening, toyboy!  Tonight's Experiment is a little
message from Leroy entitled "The uninitiated and flame wars".. I'm sure
you'll find it.. painful.

JOEL:  Gee, sirs.. we haven't recovered from "Traveller Malingering List"
Yet!  Gypsy is still quoting long passages of Keith and stats from the WBH..

T.V's FRANK:  Deal with it

<DR. FORRESTER presses the BUTTON>

JOEL, CROW, and TOM SERVO:  We've got post-sign!!!!!



At 09:14 PM 11/11/97 -0700, Leroy wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0700
>it was ventured (insignificantly):

CROW: And answered incompetently

>>
>>Dom Mooney wrote:
>>
>>>I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
>>>(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
>>>rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
>>>or should that be 'flaming list'.
>>>
>>>Any objections?
>>
>>Better than flame wars about the TL of the RoM, I guess. <g>
>>

JOEL: Hey, there were two quotes there.. who wrote the other one?
TOM SERVO:  Leroy's just trying to build the dramatic tension, Joel.. very
Hitchcockian!
CROW: Bless you.

>Well, I'm surprised that you don't know the *real* meaning of flame
>wars, but then, you couldn't see the RoM issue either. :)

TOM SERVO: Today in our sermon, the true meaning of flames..
JOEL: I think Leroy didn't appreciate the humor in the last comment..
CROW: IN the immortal words of Watson: what was your first clue, Sherlock?

>Try tail of genji, maybe that'll help.

CROW: That's one obscure reference, a true sign of the Leroy post.. mm
hasn't dropped any names yet..
TOM SERVO: Give him a paragraph, and he'll be telling us that he served as
Marc's personal aide in the Army.

>   LOL :)

JOEL: I don't get it.
TOM SERVO: Doh! Joel, L*O*L, Laughing out loud.. and the other is an
emoticon of a smiling face.. lacking any ability to convey thought or
expression using the written English language, Leroy resorts to
near-manical over use of these handy little shortcuts in a desperate
attempt to tell us he is trying humor!
CROW: Still don't get it.
JOEL: Maybe he should take typing this semester.
TOM SERVO:  Do you two realize who we are talking about?!  this is Leroy
Guatney!  He once had something published!  He's been to William Keith's
house!  He is the only mortal to tread the Earth that understands the stark
beauty that is -Emperor's Vehicles-!!!

<f/x: SERVO'S head explodes.  JOEL quickly replaces it>

>J.P. and I always say, "Rule 86: you play ball with us and we ram the
>ball up your a**." :)   {ObTrav: good tactic for NPCs to take from time
>to time.}

CROW:  The part of J.P. played by Jimmy the Evil Sock Puppet.
JOEL:  He's quoting W.E.B. Griffen there..
CROW:  *Mis*quoting, my observant comrade.. from "The Brotherhood of War"
series.  The motto of the 73rd Heavy Tank:  You play ball with the 73rd, or
we ram the bat up your ass.

>And, since that makes me think of JP wisdom he wanted me to post, he
>suggested I needn't raise the TML (the other one) flag again--time takes
>care of _everything_.  More LOL.

JOEL:  Guys, do you think that J.P. might just be a disembodied brain?
CROW:  Would explain his need to filter everything through Leroy..

>Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
> University of Mars, NorthAm Campus

TOM SERVO: Midterms available upon request!


Well, what did you think, sirs?
- --

+----------------------------+
| Doug Berry  figure@it.out  |
|  yep, got a web page too.. |
+----------------------------+
|  "Now go away, or I shall  |
|  taunt you a second time"  |
|-French Knight, "Holy Grail"|
+----------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:20:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)

At 02:33 PM 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:

>SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:

>> Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
>> Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
>> government of the Traveller universe).
>
>Although I agree with your worldview, I must disagree with your ObTrav.
>
>It seems to me that in Traveller, those with authority are nobles, with
>land and possessions. Those who are not noble, or have no part of the
>Imperial bureacracy have no say in how the Imperium is governed.
>
>What is the definition of a citizen in the Traveller Universe?

Cleon declared in 17 that "any sentient life form residing in the Third
Imperium is a citizen, and therefore granted all rights and privileges."

(Something close-- don't have those sources available right now.)

>I guess as a starting point, it is any citizen of a member world of the
>Imperium. The way each world defines citizenship can vary, but at least
>some worlds may use Heinlein's definition offered in SST. OTOH, some
>very democratic governments are member worlds also, and they may grant
>"citizenship" rights to every sophont.

Some may deny that a large percentage of their population are anything but
animals.. but that's the benefit of Imperial citizenship.

>In fact, it could very well be that if you join an Imperial Career
>(Navy, Scout, Marines, etc.) that that entitles you to become a citizen
>of the Imperium, regardless of your homeworld's political status w.r.t.
>the Imperium.

Not according to canon.

>For example, if you come from a non-imperial client state and join the
>Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, you are granted automatically an
>Imperial Citizenship (whatever that means).

From what Cleon said, You'd have to establish residency, and declare your
intent.  Joining the Scouts would be a good way to do both.

>1. What power does the Imperium have? (How much power? Power over what?)

The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  The boils down to
control of interstellar diplomacy, the military, and the very lucrative trade.

>2. Who really wields power, in day-to-day operations of the Imperium?

The Subsector Dukes.  Low enough to exert effective control over the short
term, big enough to control immense resources.  As I discovered while
research Army logistics, each Subsector is so unique that large scale
planning beyond that level really becomes a matter of throwing money to the
lower levels who really know what they need.

>3. What is the definition of a "Citizen of the Imperium"?

See above.  There are probably a few provisions about convicted High Felons
and recently entered hostile foreigners, but the basic rule is sound.

>4. What rights and responsibilities does Imperial Citizenship entail?

The right to protection from all threats enforced by the Imperial Military.
 The right to trade and move freely between worlds.  The biggest
responsibilities are to abide by Imperial law.  

>5. What rights and responsibilities do member world governments have?

The same right of protection.  Imperial arbitration in disputes between
member states.  Aid in the form of grants and material improvements.  The
main obligation remains as it has been for millennia:  money and troops.
Member worlds pay taxes, and raise units for the Army and local defense.

>What sorts of things are in the Imperial Code of Law? I remember a few,
>from canonical sources. No Murder (except Right of Assassination). No
>Civilian Nuclear weapons. Mercenary Tickets. Imperial Edict 99 was
>another, I think?

No slavery.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:45:48 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
>Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
>that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
>_didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
>power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
>from earning that right anyway.

Which of course works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me that
the people who would otherwise be disenfranchised (who are unable to learn a 
profession or accumulate any real property) would be most likely to vote 
without becoming informed on the issues, but based on feel-good advertisement 
and short-term gratification.  

That is to say, it's the masses who are unable to look beyond tonight's meal 
that are most likely to vote bread and circuses for themselves via amoral 
populist politicians, to the detriment of good governance and statesmanship.


Playing Devil's Advocate here - both sides of this argument have a point;
IMHO neither side is completely correct.  However, it's likely that the
Founding Fathers of the US would be more likely to concur with restricting
the franchise.  

It's worth noting that less than half of the eligable voters in the US value 
their franchise enough to use it in national elections; even fewer bother to 
vote in local elections (where one vote has a proportionately greater 
effect), and fewer still bother to become educated on the issues involved 
before making their decision.

It seems to me that one of Heinlien's main points - that the majority of
current-day enfranchised US citizens don't value that franchise highly 
enough - is probably true.


ObTraveller: In my personal Traveller games, the only Imperial Citizens are:
- - Those who have recieved an honorable discharge after at least one full
  term of service in the Imperial Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, or Imperial 
  Bureaucracy.
- - Those or who have attended the Imperial Merchant Marine Academy and 
  both successfully served at least one term after graduating, and
  succeeded in the re-enlistment throw.
- - Imperial Nobility (eg: nobles who participate in the governance of the
  Imperium) and their immediate families.
- - Imperial Knights.
- - Limited-Liability Imperial Corporations.
- - Other individuals who have applied for and been granted citizenship in
  the Imperium (this is relatively rare; you basically have to show how
  granting you citizenship would benefit the Imperium).

Citizenship is a fairly powerful right in my version of the Imperium;
citizens may call on the Emperor's Justice and the Emperor's Protection.

Emperor's Justice: Citizens cannot be extradited to a planet's legal system, 
instead they are tried by the Imperial justice system (which defines a 
relatively few, serious crimes).  At least in theory, the most serious
punishment a member world can levy against a citizen is banishment from
the planet.  

The upshot of this is that (for example), an Imperial Citizen who runs afoul 
of the Psyadi monkeys would get tried in an Imperial court (where this is 
not a crime, unless Psyadi's representative can show some sort of economic 
damage to the environment); the Citizen may never be able to return to 
Psyadi, but is otherwise scot-free (as opposed to the non-Citizen from Lanth, 
who would be executed on Psyadi for the same crime).

Even for a serious crime recognized by the Imperial justice system (such as 
murder), the change of venue means that Imperial rules of evidence are in
use, and the court may (hopefully) be more sympathetic to the travelers'
side of the story.

Emperor's Protection: Citizens have, at least in theory, the right to
petition the Imperial government for protection from internal and
external threats to persons or property (for example, piracy or invasions).
The local Imperial officials (generally the nobility and/or Navy higher
echelons) decide on the response, which may range from a letter with a polite 
but firm 'no' to an Imperial cruiser squadron.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:48:32 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Design Assistant ?

I'm starting to play around woth FFS2 starship design.

Can anyone recommend a good assistant program or spreadsheet ?

I'm running a PowerMac, but have Virtual PC as well, so platform shouldn't
be a problem. One just more convenient :-)


Thanx,
Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:48:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Douglas, this is brilliant. May a make a few more suggestions:
>
> Second that.
>
>>I will not explain my master plan to an army of underlings until the plan
>>has already been completed successfully.
>
> Anybody else remember the DC limited series "The Watchmen"?  near the end,
> the villian is explaining his plot to prevent WWIII to the two heros who
> have found him.  When one of the heros threatens to stop him, the villian
> calmly replies
>
> "Do you think I would explain any of this if you had the slightest chance
> of stopping it?  I did it twenty-three minutes ago."
>
> Chilling moment.

Yep. The *second* scariest thing in the world is a "villian" who really
*is* smarter than you are.

The scariest is one who is not only smarter, but better informed and
more knowledgable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:07:43 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

Doug -- you have much to answer for.  The half-mouthful of cranberry juice
I just sprayed across my wall, for example.  The other half of the
mouthful, the half that went up my nose and came out on a white linen
shirt, is another good example.  We'll pray for your soul.

I think you can consider yourself avenged for my theft of the power angora
sweater comment earlier this week.

Off to clean up --

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2091
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2092



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How long is a piece of string?
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Imperial Citizenship et al (longish)
Re: Ministry of Justice (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089)
Re: Ministry of Justice (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089)
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League story list
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: MST3K
PAW questions
Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: How long is a piece of string?
Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations
Re: The Politics of ST...
Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: Review: Starship Troopers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:25:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

In mail you write:

> All you need is a long, a very long piece of string and an 2 elastic
> bands. The piece of string will stretch from one system to another and
> is attached to a base station in each system by the elastic band.
>
> Communication is now simple and almost instant. A quick tug of the
> string is a 0 and a slow tug of the string can be a 1. Using simple
> Morse code complex messages can be communicated quickly.
>
> Minor details like finding a material strong enough to stretch across
> the reaches of space, and so on, can be left to the engineers.

Slight problem. The "tug" propogates from one end to the other at the
speed of *sound* in the string material. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:05:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

In mail you write:

>> Quibble:  At least in my dialect of English, the "ou" of "house" isn't
>> distinguishable from the Putonghua or Beijing pronunciations of "Mao".
>
> Two explanations (take your pick):
> 1) Untrained English speakers have a very difficult time distinguishing
>    the two sounds because one of them doesn't exist in English.  The
>    difference (to an Aslan) is as clear as the difference between "L" and
>    "R" is to an English speaker.  The difference (to an English speaker)
>    is about as clear as the difference between "L" and "R" is to a
>    Japanese speaker who hasn't studied English..
> 2) I'm not as familiar with Chinese as I should be, but it seems to me
>    that my (southeastern) pronounciation of house begins the same, but
>    ends with a slightly different sound.


After practicing a bit, I think I see a difference. Mao is more "nasal".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:05:41 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship et al (longish)

Glenn, sent out a interesting request. Here's a starting response that I've
used for my universe. I hope that this will help the discussion some. I'm
happy to
amplify any specific section for you.

Things for discussion:

1. What power does the Imperium have? (How much power? Power over what?)
The Imperium (as opposed to an Empire) possesses military power over all
activities, persons, locations, and entities within the boundries of the
Imperium.
This translated into physical forces applied to elements and interests
contrary to the wishes of the Imperium. How much power - well, think on
this:most military persons that I know and have met think that the last
thing
that they ever wish to do is to fight but given a situ requiring fighting
then
they want to get it over with asap. The Imperium has a mandate over all
military
activities within the Emperium and the frontiers thereof.
The Imperium's power is over all activities and persons travelling through
the space surrounding the planets and systems which comprise the Imperium.

2. Who really wields power, in day-to-day operations of the Imperium?
Nobles? Military? Bureaucracy? Corporate interests?
The power in the Imperium is wielded by the Emperor/Empress. This
individual is the absolute ruler of the Imperium. However, since this one
individual
is responsible for the continued well being of the entire Imperium, my
concept
(or perhaps conceit) is that the Emperor relatively rarely excercises the
full degree of the absolute power inherent within the office of the
Emperor.
The day to day operations of the Imperium are supervised and run by all 
of the above. Yes, nobles, military, bureaucritters, corporates et al all
have different ways of administring this massive entity. I have always
thought
that the Imperial Moot/Senate advised the Emperor and that a selected
number
persons responsible to the Emperor would either supervise the various
departments of the Imperium. (I'll happily supply a chart of the various
ministries, bureaus, etc upon request/ er.. demand), administer various 
territories or engage in special pletipotiary mission as needed.


3. What is the definition of a "Citizen of the Imperium"?
4. What rights and responsibilities does Imperial Citizenship entail?
I would like to answer these two as one. Here is a short chart that I
use for my players to explain the way I use citizenship within the
Imperium.
Classes of persons in the Empire.
Type			Description				Number
Emperor		Ruler of the Empire			1
			Prefect of the Emperial Senate
Imperials		Members of the Ruling House		29,374
			Senior Nobles (Viceroys, Archdukes, Princes etc)
Imperial Citizen		Members of the Empire with the		1.35 per 2,000,000 Imp
Clients
			right to vote in Imperial Referrendums
			Also, Senatorials, Field Grade Officers, Governors, 
			Senior Bureaucrats, etc
			Successfull retirement from Imperial service usually grants this as a
			bonus.Must be a citizen to be Eligible for Senatorial Status
			These are the elites of the empire and these are the ones who usually
			take the brunt of the obligations to run the Imperium. It's principally 
			hereditary (not nobility but citizenship) However, at age 18 these folk
			must volunteer for some sort of Imperial Service. They may not be
			selected but they must volunteer. It could also be age 22 or 26 after
			college and grad school. This may also be granted as a pre-req to 
			specific postings or job assignments.
Imperial Clients		Normal Citizens of the Empire
			Any intelligent sophont, born within the confines of the Imperium and
			not having committed any crime greater than a misdemenor within the
bounds
			of the Imperium may claim this status upon the equivelant age of 18
			years. At which time they become subject to the Imperial draft - this
rarely
			occurs but they are then liable for forced imperial service for the next
20 years.
			They receieve for this the right to live within the Imperium, the right
			of limited taxation (citizen's can only be taxed to a specific degree
excepting 			in time of emergency), and the right to live.
Other Persons		Beings living and working within the Empire who are not of
			the Empire.
			Limited rights.

5. What rights and responsibilities do member world governments have?
They have the job of running their worlds/systems within the Imperium
without signficantly interfering with the Imperium and not breaking the
principal
laws of the Imperium. 
Here are the laws that I use.
Remember that all Imperial personnel (naval, scout, armed forces and
imperial officers) 
must take a variety of oaths of service. 
All oaths must include the following 5 laws of the Empire.
I.	There shall be no greater soverign power in space than the Empire.
II.	Violence will not be permitted in Imperial Space.
III.	No nuclear, Fusion or Biological weapons are permitted without
	Imperial License.
IV.	Technological levels shall be maintained and proscribed technologies
	shall not be distributed without license.
V.	The rights, priviliges, and duties of imperial citizens and clients
	shall not be abrogated without right.
Imperial Space is considered to be in my universe anything outside of the
boundries of any system, or any area designated as non-imperial space
within the
frontiers of the Imperium, any planet, system, reserve, or preserve held by
the Imperial
Service or the Ruling House that is not the responsibility of a member
world, or system.
The job of  the member governors or governemts is to rule with little
disruption. And
to pay their taxes.

Pretty simple, Hey. A little draconian perhaps, but I my universe the
Imperium is the 
"good guys" well sort of.

Well, I've sent out enough.
Please let me know what you think of my ramblings.
Thanks
Pat

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1997 03:54:56 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ministry of Justice (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089)

>Fourthly, the Imperial Ministry of Justice rep, if just becasue Imperial
>Audits, if not common, are exteremly uncomfortable things - unlimited,
>open-ended Imperial Warrants and all that.

The MoJ was protrayed more as a crime-fighting outfit in the original
articles.  So unless they were investigating fraud...

I'd see audits being more a function of whichever noble (and te bureaucrats)
was responsible for collecting taxes.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1997 03:54:56 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ministry of Justice (was Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089)

>Fourthly, the Imperial Ministry of Justice rep, if just becasue Imperial
>Audits, if not common, are exteremly uncomfortable things - unlimited,
>open-ended Imperial Warrants and all that.

The MoJ was protrayed more as a crime-fighting outfit in the original
articles.  So unless they were investigating fraud...

I'd see audits being more a function of whichever noble (and te bureaucrats)
was responsible for collecting taxes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:38:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]

In mail you write:

> 1
> If your guards split up to search for intruders, use groups of threes
> so that when one is attacked, the second can investigate/defend
> whilst the third calls for reinforcements.

Or as they put it in "Beowulf's Children", it makes a good rule for
adventurers: 

"Groups of three. Never less than three," he said, "One to break his
leg, one to stay with him, and one to go for help."

> 2
> Learn the real lesson from "The boy who cried wolf" story:
> Whilst you might want to give your lookout a long lecture about friend/foe
> recognition and timewasting, you still shoot your lieutenant if he doesn't
> maintain a sub five minute response time just because
> "its only another false alarm".
> Raising a false alarm yourself and then shooting anyone who turns up late
> should get the message accross.

Standard trick for dealing with someone with a watchdog. Keep
"triggerring" the watchdog. Eventually, the owner will lock him up,
just so he can get some sleep. *Then* you attack.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1997 03:47:06 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

>> In fact, it could very well be that if you join an Imperial Career
>> (Navy, Scout, Marines, etc.) that that entitles you to become a citizen
>> of the Imperium, regardless of your homeworld's political status w.r.t.
>> the Imperium.
>> 
>
>I like this idea but I can't find a benefit for it. If someone comes
>up with a good reason to be an Imperial citizen, then I'll probably
>institute this.

I've always viewed Imperial Citizenship (at least in the early Imperium) as
being rather like Roman citizenship.  Being a Roman citizen gave you a _lot_
of rights over the locals, in any aea Rome controlled.  The extension of
citizenship to both individuals (such as auxiliaries) and people (such as
allies) was a powerful political weapon, until there were more citizens than
non-citizens, at which time one emperor (forget who) granted citizenship to
all residents of the empire, eliminating the distinction.

I see Milieu 0 as a time when citizens of the former Sylean Federation are
Imperial citizens, as are all members of the Imperial military (with
honourable discharges after 20 years service).  Citizenship is also granted
to all nobility (of course) and to distinguished locals (usually the
leadership to keep them happy).  

What are the most important rights of a citizen (as opposed to a resident)?

1) Right to trial by an Imperial court (judge or noble with right of
justice).  Local laws are not as applicable.  

2) Exemption from many taxes, especially duties.  Both a subtle edge to
Imperials, and an incentive to serve the empire for 20 years.

These will make more difference on the Frontier.  After all, in the Core most
people are citizens.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:56:41 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League story list

Oooops.

  Below is the list of stories in Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League
Timeline.
  My apparently mistaken impression was that "The Pugilist" was part
of the this cycle. It could almost fit, certainly.
  Also, when I dug up the books from storage I discovered that the list
does not include "The Horn of Time" which I was pretty certain was
part of this timeline based on similar technological
assumptions to "The Peregrine". Wrong again, it seems.

  Another collection of Anderson's work ("Conflict", published in '83)
is the most recent appearance of "The Pugilist" that I am aware of.


The Psychotechnic League Cycle of Poul Anderson

(derived from the back of "Starship", volume 3 of the collected
Psychotechnic League stories.)

Volume I: "The Psychotechnic League"
  (published in 1981; covers timeline 1964-2051)
   -"Marius"
   -"The Un-Man"
   -"The Sensitive Man"
   -"The Big Rain"

Volume II: "Cold Victory"
  (published in 1982; covers timeline 2055-2270)
   -"Quixote and the Windmill"
   -"The Troublemakers"
   -"Holmgang"
   -"Cold Victory"
   -"What Shall It Profit?"
   -"Brake"

short story "The Snows of Ganymede" (timeline 2220)

Volume III: "Starship"
  (published in 1982; covers timeline 2300-4000+)
   -Gypsy
   -Star Ship
   -Virgin Planet
   -Teucan
   -The Pirate
   -The Chapter Ends

Book "The Peregrine" (aka "Star Ways"; timeline 3120)
short story "The Acolytes" (timeline 3000)
short story "The Green Thumb" (timeline 3000)


  These stories, written between 1950 and 1968, comprise the first
long-reaching future-history timeline that Poul Anderson created. He
eventually abandoned it to take up two new sets of stories that
became the core of the Terran Empire Timeline. These stories centered
around the most colorful characters of the two eras, who are well
known to most Traveller players: David Falkayn and Nicholas van Rijn
were the center of the Polesotechnic League stories, while the much
later Terran Empire stories centered around the infamous Dominic Flandry,
a man who spent his life fighting against a phenomena well-known to
Traveller: The Long Night.

  Cheers,

  GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:48:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:

>>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
>
> Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
> that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
> _didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping the
> power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep them
> from earning that right anyway.

Funny, it didn't work that way. "The people" *got* the right to vote.
And in the process, we repealed the section of the Constitution that
forbade any taxes other than "head" taxes (ie taxes were every *person*
paid the same amount), and added things like property taxes, which make
it *impossible* to stay on your farm and mind your own business. You
*have* to come up with hard cash or lose your property.

And since things like the right to keep and bear arms *did* apply to
everyone, the people who *could* vote had a vested interest in making
sure that the rest of the population stayed reasonably happy.

The only way the *un*enfranchised (dis-enfranchised refers to people
who have had the vote *taken away*, not those who never had it) will be
denied a chance to earn the right is if the enfranchised deliberately
keep them from being able to earn the money to buy property, or the
ability to *learn* a profession. Neither was true in the US.

History shows what happens when you give "the people" power. Athens,
several Italian city-states, The French and Russian revolutions, etc,
etc.

Voters who haven't learned to consider the results of their actions are
the death of *any* society. Ditto for "nobles" in an aristocracy.
Whoever makes the decisions *must* consider the consequences of those
decisions. Both to themselves and society.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:22:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 08:30 am 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
><snip>
>>In short, you can live your life quite happily and successfully without
>>having the vote, but to get the franchise (and the reserved jobs) you
have
>>to give something.. a couple of years of your life to service.
>I got the impression (note it has also been years since I read the
>book) that MI or Fleet weren't the only options for federal service.

	Exactly. In fact, you didn't GET an option--you committed to Federal
Service, listed what you'd LIKE to do, and then the FS looked at your
aptitudes, skills, and what was needed, and TOLD you what you would be
doing. And they couldn't reject you, as long as you could understand the
oath--if you volunteered for Federal Service, you were given an opportunity
to serve. In the book, the example was a blind paraplegic.

	(For those concerned about my qualifications to comment on the book--I've
reread it at least thrice in the last 12 months. It's very definitely one
of my favorites. And I'm not sure how the idea of linking responsibilities
with rights becomes fascist ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:24:49 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MST3K

At 01:45 pm 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>MST3K?
>>
>>Umm? What dat?
>
>A television show that used to be (still is???) on the Comedy Central
>network in the US. It features a man and his two puppet-robot companions
>who are forced to sit through bad movies (most sf/fantasy/horror, although
>I remember one biker flick) ostensibly as part of an experiment.

	I'm waiting, somewhat forlornly, for them to do Star Trek 5 ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:26:08 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: PAW questions

I sat down tonight w/ FF&S2 to make up some PAW designs, and came up the
following questions:

1)  The modifiers for beefed up Focal Arrays...do we use the ROFs from FF&S1
(i.e. 1-800) or the ones listed (which only run to 240, based on T4 pg 117
stating space combat turns are 10 min)

2)  Damage Modifier:  Pg 52 of FF&S2 states a damage modifier is calculated
if the diameter of the tunnel is less than 1/8 of the length...then under the
listing for Effective range, the formula reads "Actual Eff Range= Theoretical
Eff Range x Range Modifier"  What is this Range Modifier...is it the Damage
Mod?

3)  Turrets vs. Bays:  I know the canonical definition of Turrets Vs
Bays...but do they apply anymore?  Since non-standardized weapons are
becoming the norm...what's to say a weapon isn't a very large turret?  This
may seem like nit-picking, but if I read SSDS right, then bays are counted as
a seperate battery for each one...limiting the number of weapons in the
battery (and hence the damage rating).  Whereas turrets can have up to 10
linked in a single battery (and get a very high damage rating:  10*30=300,
which is a rating of 8 w/out ROF mods)  but bays are limited to the damage
the DE gives them.

If anyone has any insight on any of these points, I'd greatly appreciate
hearing it!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:23:33 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

At 02:06 pm 11/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
>
>Which, of course, works in a perfect world.  However, it would seem to me
>that the people who need the vote the most are the disenfranchised who
>_didn't_ own land or have a profession.  That is to say, it was keeping
the
>power out of the hands of the people, which in turn would serve to keep
them
>from earning that right anyway.

	In other words, they could vote themselves the right to the work of others
....
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:31:38 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

>	A project for the gearheads might be a calculation of the mass of string
>	required for what I suppose we'd have to call a complete communications 
>	net. I really like this!

	I'd be more concerned about the elasticity. Sure, take a 1 light-year
string. Tug on it. What's going to happen is that the portion of the string
you're holding will move toward you. That portion will pull the next
portion, and the next portion, and the next portion. The far end of the
string certainly won't move at the same time as the near end--you've got to
propagate the force down the length of the string.

	The only substance that could conceivable work would have infinite
rigidity. In which case it would make perfect armor ... if you could work
it.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:15:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan Male/Female Ratio & Relations

At 08:11 pm 11/11/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Considering how odd* life can get here on Earth, aliens can well be
odder.
>>
>> * Does anyone have some odd examples?  Spotted heyenas are odd.
Duck-billed
>>   platapuses (platypi?) are odd.
>
>Octopi sex is odd. (the male and female drop the end of a specialized
>tentacle near each other and then they wander off).
>
>Seahorse "pregnancy" is odd. The *males* carry the babies.
>
>Naked mole rat society/biology is *weird*. The "queen" mole rat
>secretes a hormone that keeps the other females immature. So they are
>an actual case of *mammals* with a "hive" society!

	What about the deep-sea fish where, when the male finally finds a female,
he basically implants his body into hers... eventually everything but the
gonads wither away (since the chances of a female ever meeting another male
aren't that great, she just "hangs on" to him).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:39:52 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

At 08:45 pm 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>rights, I suspect that they are not held in high regard.  As well (and
bear
>in mind that the US is AFAIK the only western democracy still to use the
>death penalty), the TF justice system's use of capital punishment is not a
>telling point in its favour; it shows a great deal of disregard for _the_
>fundamental human right.

	Gee, now we can start an argument on the TML about capital punishment!
What fun! Perhaps we can drown out the piracy discussion...

	OK, maybe not. But I tend to disagree with this paragraph. The fact that
the US is the only "western democracy" applying the death penalty says
nothing either way about whether it's wrong or right. Just because
everybody disagrees with you doesn't make you wrong. Nor does it make you
right. It's irrelevant.

	As for the death penalty showing disregard for "_the_ fundamental human
right" I thought you were arguing that there is no such thing as rights
outside a legal framework? As for disregard for this "right"--perhaps it's
actually UPHOLDING this right _if applied only to respond to other
violations of this right_.  Because otherwise you're saying that the
murderer's human right to live outweighs the victim's right to live, _which
that murderer has abrogated._

	'Course, my problem with the death penalty comes in with the way it's
actually applied, rather than the theoretical underpinnings.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:43:45 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

In a message dated 97-11-13 02:29:11 EST, dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< What sorts of things are in the Imperial Code of Law? I remember a few,
 >from canonical sources. No Murder (except Right of Assassination). No
 >Civilian Nuclear weapons. Mercenary Tickets. Imperial Edict 99 was
 >another, I think?
 
 No slavery.
 
 -- >>


From Challenge Issue #50:

High Justice Crimes:

Treason
Manufacture of Prohibited Weapons
Possession of Prohibited Weapons
Use of Prohibited Weapons
Espionage
Waging Illegal War 
Obstruction of an Imperial Warrant Bearer
(Note these crimes are all investigated by Imperial Military organizations)

Imperial Crimes:

Piracy
Space Vessel Theft (I can already see Hans heading for the keyboard...:-))
Great Assault (Defined as indescriminate large scale-attacks, blurry line w/
Waging Illegal War )
Kidnapping
Murder
Counterfieting (Imperial Documents or Currency only)
Obstructing Imperial Justice
Killing an Imperial Agent
Assaulting an Imperial Agent
Interfereing w/ the ISS Mail Service
Possession/Transport of Prohibited Biologicals
Conspiracy to commit an Imperial Crime

Recognized Crimes (Crimes which the Imperium will extradite you for)

Murder
Manslaughter
Rape
Counterfieting
Great theft
Smuggling

Hope this helps some...

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:41:24 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a fit of creativity, I have finally completed one of my long standing 
'gottadews'.  I have taken the text files of the sector data from the 
Missouri Archive (thanks Joe!) and compiled 'em into a Access database. 
 Now it's time to dig into the VB and produce!  (you may all shudder in 
anticipation at what may follow in a few weeks, months..years?)

(hehehe - no more crunching the numbers on paper with a calculator, Hans! 
 Want 'accurate' population numbers for the Imperium?  Shipyard capacity, 
averaged over Sectors?  Do ya all realize that most systems are binary 
star, with numerous planets!!!)

In the process of massaging the data for the database, I ended up with 
a...er, large Excel spreadsheet with all the sector data in it.  I have no 
real need for it, but before I reduce it to it's component magnetic charges 
on my drive, I thought I would check and see if anyone else out there is 
interested in the 'complete' sector information, in one convenient file?

It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll save 
it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size 
(which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send it 
once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)

Let me know if you are interested!

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:06:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 11:22 PM 11/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>	(For those concerned about my qualifications to comment on the book--I've
>reread it at least thrice in the last 12 months. It's very definitely one
>of my favorites. And I'm not sure how the idea of linking responsibilities
>with rights becomes fascist ...)

In my humble experience, those who state (responsibility with rights) =
(fascism) are those who have never bothered to do any sort of public service.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2092
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2093



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How long is a piece of string?
Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: re Aslant Male/Female ratio & relations
Messing with stars
How long is a jump?
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: WOW
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]
RE: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:35:34 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

>        I'd be more concerned about the elasticity. Sure, take a 1 light-year
>string. Tug on it. What's going to happen is that the portion of the string
>you're holding will move toward you. That portion will pull the next
>portion, and the next portion, and the next portion. The far end of the
>string certainly won't move at the same time as the near end--you've got to
>propagate the force down the length of the string.

The tug would propagate at the speed of sound (in the string) which can go
as high as close to lightspeed if sufficiently dense/compressed material is
used.

One layman explanation for when a neutron star stops being a neutron star
and becomes a black hole is that when the density is so high that the speed
of sound would exceed the speed of light it will collapse ie the matter
cannot react to pushes fast enough and thus collapse.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:23:24 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

To one of us lurkers, you guys are just to much. This was really funny. I
can just see Leroy going all red, big flames sprouting out his ears. :)

ROTFL, for you all. 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:45:18 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-11-11 23:46:09 EST, hdhale0@pop.uky.edu writes:
> 
> << Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent. >>
> 
> This is not necessarily true, folks...if we can come up with a good
> screenplay, someone will probably take an interest in it.  >Independants make
> great movies all the time, on shoestring budgets.  I realize this is > >an
> exercise in humor, but there is no reason why a Traveller-based movie > is not doable.
I fear that for the kind of Special FX we would want that movie to have,
it will polly have a very high pricetag, even with loads of B5-style
CGI-effects, too high for most indies. So it has to be one of the big
hollywood companies

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:01:51 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

David J. Golden wrote:

>
>	(For those concerned about my qualifications to comment on the
>book--I've
>reread it at least thrice in the last 12 months. It's very definitely one
>of my favorites. And I'm not sure how the idea of linking responsibilities
>with rights becomes fascist ...)


	I'd argue that rights and freedoms are bounded by the
responsibility not to infringe upon the rights of others.  Rights and
freedoms _are_ by definition responsibilities, since everyone has them and
by their very nature they must be respected.  I cannot exercise my right to
bear arms at the neighbours because it'll damage their property and put
their risk at life.

	In a free society, everyone is titulary of the same rights and
freedoms.   These rights and freedoms are, not surprisingly, calculated to
protect and maximize the worth and dignity of the individual human being
and, secondarily, enhance the functioning of society.  When a bunch of
individuals exercises them together in a common legal framework, itself a
democratically created one stemming from said rights, a just society
results.  Transgressions upon others' rights and freedoms, either against
specific individuals or against the general population are met with civil
and criminal sanctions.

	Rights and freedoms _are_ by definition responsibilities.  Citizens
exercise responsibility for the smooth functioning of society every day by
not exercising their rights in abusive fashion.  As a member of the same
free society as, say, Glenn, I am responsible for ensuring that my actions
do not infringe upon his rights and freedoms.  And vice versa.

	Only when I violate that responsibility can my rights be infringed
or limited, as a sanction.  If I napalm Glenn's lawn, he can sue me
(depriving me of my property rights over the sum  of money required to
repair the damage to his property) or have me thrown in jail (have me
deprived of my right to liberty as a sanction for my reckless endangerment
of others' safety and property rights).

	IMHO, a political system that systematically limits the rights of a
section of its population on ideological grounds, especially political
rights such as the right to vote, is, while not necessarily being
classically fascist, going to produce an unjust society.  It doesn't matter
whether the individuals being denied rights are being denied rights because
they are Blacks, Jews, non-Party members or they haven't done a stint of
Federal Service, it is still IMHO wrong.

	Try reading the Bill of Rights, and ask yourself whether Heinlein's
justifications for cutting back on that document make any real-world sense.

	And now, I'm going to go over my outline one last time for my exam
this afternoon...  wish me luck.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:11:22 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

David J. Golden wrote:

>At 08:45 pm 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>rights, I suspect that they are not held in high regard.  As well (and
>bear
>>in mind that the US is AFAIK the only western democracy still to use the
>>death penalty), the TF justice system's use of capital punishment is not a
>>telling point in its favour; it shows a great deal of disregard for _the_
>>fundamental human right.
>
>	Gee, now we can start an argument on the TML about capital punishment!
>What fun! Perhaps we can drown out the piracy discussion...


	Ssshh!  This is what I'm trying to do!  Don't let on :)!


>
>	OK, maybe not. But I tend to disagree with this paragraph. The fact
>that
>the US is the only "western democracy" applying the death penalty says
>nothing either way about whether it's wrong or right. Just because
>everybody disagrees with you doesn't make you wrong. Nor does it make you
>right. It's irrelevant.


	Well, I'd say that the fact that the U.S. is the only one of the
sample population of democracies to use the death penalty semi-regularly is
statistically significant.  The thing to do is then see whether it produces
the desired effect.

	And that's where the flamewar begins as the infinite recursive
fractal cycle of "yes-but"-ing begins :).


>
>	As for the death penalty showing disregard for "_the_ fundamental human
>right" I thought you were arguing that there is no such thing as rights
>outside a legal framework? As for disregard for this "right"--perhaps it's
>actually UPHOLDING this right _if applied only to respond to other
>violations of this right_.  Because otherwise you're saying that the
>murderer's human right to live outweighs the victim's right to live, _which
>that murderer has abrogated._
>


	Nope.  I'm just saying that _generally_, human rights in Western
society are concieved in such a way (i.e. framed in legislation) that the
taking of life is heavily sanctioned and only justified in a few
circumstances such as war or self-defence.  Generally speaking, the
"grundnorms", or basic moral beliefs expressed in the legal frameworks in
question, hold that life is the basic right.  This tends to get expressed
in constitutions: the U.S. Bill of Rights, IIRC, has something to say about
"Life, liberty, and happiness" right at the beginning.

	The death penalty debate in your country AFAIK has significant
constitutional-interpretation overtones.  IIRC, at one point the U.S.
Supreme Court decided that capital punishment was unconstitutional, and it
took a certain amount of political padding of the bench to get a
sufficiently right-wing court to later overturn that ruling...  So,
basically, IIRC, what U.S. death penalty proponents are saying is that yes,
life is a fundamental right, but that your constitution allows it to be
overridden.

	This, as I've pointed out, is a pretty unique position :).


>	'Course, my problem with the death penalty comes in with the way it's
>actually applied, rather than the theoretical underpinnings.


	My problem with it is that it's insufficient punishment.  IMHO,
rotting away behind bars for the rest of my life expectancy would be sheer
hell.  I'd take thirty seconds in the chair or hanging over that at the
drop of a hat rather than spend my life deprived of my freedom to walk
round to the corner store to buy my morning paper (or to do whatever else I
felt like within reason) while being surrounded by assorted scumbageous
criminals.

	Of course, the prison in question has to be sufficiently
unpleasant.  Spending the rest of my life locked into a Club Med would be
somewhat more bearable than being locked into Kingston Pen...

	Which is where Paul Bernardo (raped a bunch of women, raped and
murdered his teenage sister-in-law, kidnapped, raped, and murdered two
other young women) is going to be spending the rest of his life.  After
sentencing, the Crown succeeded in having him declared a dangerous
offender.  In Canadian criminal law, this means that in practice he likely
will never, ever be released.  And, given what he did, he has to be kept in
a special unit, isolated from the rest of the prison population, so that
they won't scrag him.

	Personally, and YMMV, death would be better than that.

	Which reminds me of this idea my classmates and I cooked up one
evening over a few too many beers...  Just build a very large cinderblock
warehouse way hellandgone up on Baffin Island.  Provide it with basic
heating.  Put in basic food preparation facilities, provide the inmates
with basic indoor clothing, and install exercise bicycles in case they get
bored or the heating isn't warm enough for them.  Do not put any bars on
the windows or locks on the doors.

	Put up polar bear feeding stations in a 60-kilometer radius around
the building.  Move them weekly.

	And now I really am going to go study :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:29:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: re Aslant Male/Female ratio & relations

In mail you write:

> The females Kangaroo's can have a joey in the pouch and be pregnant with
> the next one and control the growth of the foetus , so in droughts she
> can totally stop the growth till things improve.

The ordinary rabbit can actually *resorb* a fetus if conditions are
bad. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:04:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Messing with stars

In mail you write:

> Here's a question for the gearheads among us:
> Suppose I wanted to mess up the stellar magnetohydrodynamics of a system
> (ie do bad things to stellar fusion), what element would I need to
> introduce into a typical G-type star to cause a change in the fusion
> reaction?

Thereis *nothing* that you could introduce that'd have a noticeable
effect unless you've got several earth masses of it. And since fusion
*only* occurs in the *core* of the star, you'd have to gety it to the
core. Otherwise you have to wait somewhere between years and
*centuries* for it to work its way to the core.

> Could I induce a mini-nova or vast planet-cleansing solar flare
> by this method?

Novas require white dwarf stars or maybe neutron stars. Solar flares
are *surface* phenomena. There may be ways to induce them, but that
requires more knowledge of stellar dynamics than I've got.

> What sort of damage in Traveller terms might a large solar flare cause, and
> what are the accompanying radiation effects?

Kiss any electronics in space goodbye, except for optical stuff (-fib
computers, for example). For that matter kiss any*one* in space goodbye
unless they are behind *heavy* shielding. Consider a big flare to be
much like catching the edge of a *big* Particle beam.

On airless planets, anything not *well* dug-in fares like stuff in
space. Probably ditto for very thin atmospheres, except that you'd get
to see what an aurora looks like from *inside*. Thin atmospheres should
provide some shielding, but unless you've also got a strong planetary
magnetic field, you're still toast. And being near the magnetic poles
is bad news.

If there are wide scale power transmission lines, and a planetary
magnetic field then you'll get *massive* EMP effects (bad flares have
done it on earth).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:27:42 -0000
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: How long is a jump?

May already be answered in a FAQ, but I'll pose the question anyway.

How far does a ship "travel" in jumpspace??

When a ship jumps, it leaves one part of normal space and a week later
arrives in another part of normal space. In the interim the ship is
"travelling" in another space.
If one considers that jumpspace is another continuum where the distance is
shorter than in real space, just how far is that distance?

Does the ship move at all in this other continuum, or can one enter this
space and ultimately exit in a different place without moving in jumpspace?

Does jumping involve the warping of real space between the two endpoints to
make the distance travelled zero, and the operation takes a week to take
effect?

Does jumpspace outside/beside/within real space and the ship moves within
this otherness?

Any ideas???

Is there a canon definition on what is going on in this other space?

/JD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:12:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:30:32 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>><snip>
>>>In short, you can live your life quite happily and successfully without
>>>having the vote, but to get the franchise (and the reserved jobs) you have
>>>to give something.. a couple of years of your life to service.
>>I got the impression (note it has also been years since I read the
>>book) that MI or Fleet weren't the only options for federal service.
>
> They weren't. The military still needed administrative types,
> mechanics, intelligence, etc. Federal service didn't mean you were
> risking life and limb in combat; just that you had performed service
> in the military. 

Nope. It's *clearly* stated that there were 100% *non*-military jobs.
Juan mentioned that if he didn't make the military, he wasn't
*interested* in what other job they found him.

So all the government clerks and the like are doing federal service,
and maybe even things like highway crews. Y'know, there could even be
an advantage to bureaucrats not being able to vote until *after* they
no longer held the job... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:15:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: WOW

In mail you write:

>>I looked it up:
>>
>>E =3D Religious Autocracy
>>
>>With a LL of E (police state), this place would make Afganistan look=20
>>like a hippy commune...
>
> Where did you look this up? It's not in the T4 rulebook in any case
> (although the law levels B+ are desribed as increasingly more controlled
> variants of A).
>
> Are there more government descriptions and law level descriptions where you
> got this stuff? I think I could use it (appearantly First survey uses these
> codes).

A lot of the later CT stuff, and most of the MT stuff had entries for
all *possible* values.

The table I have a copy of here is from Second Survey:

Goverment:				Race/allegiance
E	Religious Oligarchy
F	Totalitarion Oligarchy
G	Small station or facility	Aslan
H	Split clan control		Aslan
J	Single on-world clan control	Aslan
K	Single multi-world clan control	Aslan
L	Major clan control		Aslan
M	Vassal clan control		Aslan
N	Major vassal clan control	Aslan
P	Small station or faciluty	K'kree
Q	Krurruna or Krumunak rule
	for off-world Steppelord	K'kree
R	Steppelord on-world rule	K'kree
S	?
T	?
U	Supervised anarchy		Hiver
V	?
W	?
X	Droyne heirarchy		Droyne
Y	?
Z	?

The Law level chart has the normal A "no weapons, then blank lines
until L (Totally oppressive and restrictive).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:27:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

In mail you write:

>>I suggest that you study both history and the book again. There *was*
>>due process in the book!
>
>         Of sorts.  Not, IMHO, as I, a legally trained individual, would
> understand it.

Oh? I'm curious. *Where* did you see legal proceedings *other* than
military courts? The military courts ran pretty much the way military
courts do now.

But from various references, *I* didn't get the impression that civil
law was all that different than what we are used to. The *punishments*
tended to be somewhat different.

> Nazi Germany, after all, having inherited a long and strong
> civil law tradition, had a court system, with a complete set of procedural
> rules...  but what that process produced was not justice as you or I would
> understand it.  It takes more than a pretty courtroom and a code of
> procedure to produce justice; what's being enforced must be just to begin
> with.  It's easy to design a legal system that presents the appearance of
> due process but whose substantive law is sufficient to have the accused
> practically condemned before he steps into the courthouse.

And where is ther an example of this in the book?

>         Remember that the justice system in ST grew out of vigilante
> justice imposed by mobs of returned veterans lacking duly constituted legal
> authority, and that it operates in a system where civil rights are held in
> low regard... viz. Col. Dubois's speech about the drowning man in the
> Pacific Ocean.

Sorry, that was intended rather differently than you seem to have read it.

>         Which brings me to Heinlein's concept of rights, or at least the
> concept of rights that Dubois exposes; it's fundamentally mistaken and
> completely fallacious.  It's the equivalent of trying to analyse a social
> situation using electromagnetism as a paradigm.
>
>         Rights are a purely social and legal phenomenon; of course they
> cannot be invoked against oceans and so forth.  They're only claims upon
> the behaviour of one's fellow citizens, matched by corresponding duties on
> their part.  Of course I can't invoke my property rights as a tornado blows
> my pickup across the county line... but I can invoke them against a car
> thief and press charges and sue him for damages.  Rights are social
> protection; for protection against twisters I build a storm cellar.
> Heinlein had Dubois set up a straw man.

And in doing so, show that rights *are* a social phenomenon. That's
*why* he was against calling them "inalienable". Because since they
only exist by benefit of society's "whims", they *can* be talen away
by society.

>         Of course, being social and legal constructs, unless you're a
> natural law theorist, rights don't exist outside a given legal system.
> Being a positivist, I think that human rights are entirely legal creations,
> brought into existence by the various Bills, Declarations, and Charters
> that frame them.  I do not believe in any natural law underpinning human
> law that gives rights some nebulous existence outside the frameworks of the
> legal systems in which they operate.

Again, that was the whole *point* of Col. DuBois' lecture. Rights
*don't* exist in a vacuum. If you want "rights" thenm you'd better be
prepared to make sure that your society grants them.

So contary to what you got out of it, I think they held rights in
*high* esteem. But they also recognized that they are *not* some sort
of magical thing granted by some god.

>         Unfortunately, we don't know whether the Terran Federation has a
> Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  However, given Col. Dubois' speech on
> rights, I suspect that they are not held in high regard.

And I suspect, based on the same speech, that they *are*. But that
since they are recognized as a social artifact, they are considered to
*follow* as a consequence of the *responsibilities* of the individual
towards other individuals. That is, rather than thinking of "freedom of
speech" as a right, they'd think of the *responsibility of not
"censoring" other people's views.

This shift of viewpoint would (IMNSHO) prevent a lot of the situations
we see where folks are claiming "rights", but are actually trying to
*deny* rights to others.

> As well (and bear
> in mind that the US is AFAIK the only western democracy still to use the
> death penalty), the TF justice system's use of capital punishment is not a
> telling point in its favour; it shows a great deal of disregard for _the_
> fundamental human right.

And note the sort of crimes it's reserved for. Ones where it's quite
clear that the criminal has no regard for the lives of others. Also, I
got the impression that an execution a *year* would be considered a
*high* rate for a "state" sized area.

>         So either Heinlein was fundamentally ignorant of what rights were
> (which I have a hard time believing), or he was setting up a vision of
> rights that a freshman philosophy student could blow clean out of the
> water.  I think that he was doing the latter, in the expectation that the
> more discerning reader would twig to what he was doing.

Or, as I point out, you missed the whole point. He was arguing for a
view much like yours, but by forcing you to throw out the "natural law"
view.

BTW, I disagree with you about the "natural law" bit to some extent.
I think that "metalaw" is working towards a "non-arbitrary" set of
rules/rights. In fact, I may update my old file on the subjject and
post it, as it'd be a good basis for Imperial law, especially the parts
that deal with non-humans (as that's what it started out as.... an
attempt to deduce rules that could be applied equally to humans and
aliens). 

>>And the franchise was equally (though
>>differently) limited in the US for decades. So the taxation without
>>representation but either applies to *both* or neither.
>
>         Both it is then.  Remember, democracy as we know it did not spring
> into existence in its current form... it's evolved.  A notable example is
> the extension of the franchise to women.  Please don't think that I'm
> setting up Western civilization's concept of democracy as perfect; I think
> we've got a ways to go yet before we get it right.

Excuse me. You are apparently under the impression that this country is
a democracy. It is turning into one, but it most definitely was *not*
set up as one. True democracies have a *worse* record than autocracies!

>>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>only vote if you owned property or had a profession. And Heinlein not
>>only knew this, but felt that changing this had been a mistake in that
>>it removed a "test" of whether or not you were a "responsible citizen".
>
>         Ye gods!  I am appalled.  Frankly, RAH couldn't have thought that
> one through.  What about the case of the ditzy, debauched, no-good lush
> who's never worked a day in his life who inherits a vast estate from his
> father?  How is he more deserving than a skilled, hard-working tradesman
> who unfortunately doesn't own enough land to qualify for the franchise?

If the lazy no good doesn't learn responsibility, how long will it be
before some con man takes that estate away from him? 

And I'm not (and i don't think Heinlein was either) claiming that it
was perfect. Just that it was an attempt at eliminating some of the
irresponsible from the voter pool while not eliminating too many
responsible types.

> Didn't he realize that depriving the poor of political clout (even if it's
> purely symbolic) is what's led to every single major revolution that I can
> think of?

Remember, thanks to the secxond amendment (when it was honored) any
voters stupid enough to do something that really pissed off the
non-voters *would* wind up on the short end of a revolution.

And it also helps to remember that it *used* to be the case that the
"rich" and well off took care of the poor (at least the responsible
ones did) rather than filtering the aid thru a government bureaucracy.

>         Which brings me to the irrationality of the franchise system in ST.
> Apparently, two years of shovelling dirt in Antarctica will get you the
> franchise.  However, Johnny Rico's father, a businessman whose activity
> provides employment for a large number of people, whose disposable income
> provides support for many other individuals in various sectors, and whose
> business therefore must provide goods or services that society finds
> extremely valuable, cannot vote.

Only because he didn't feel it was worth putting out the effort.

>         The only justification provided for this is that the labour
> battalion veteran has, well, signed up for Federal service and shovelled
> some dirt, thereby putting his life, or at least his big toes, on the line
> in order to provide holes in the ground in Antarctica (or something) for
> his society.  However, IMHO, Rico Sr.'s contribution to society is hands
> down much greater.  So basically, the limitation on the franchise appears
> to be ideological or political, since it's not exactly rational... which,
> again, smacks of fascism.

No, it's based on whether or not you are willing to put forth some
effort for society, with *no* benefit other than the vote. What Rico,
Sr did benefited society, but only as a *side effect* of benefitting
himself. To get the vote you have to *reverse* the relationship. Do
something that (in theory anyway) benefits society and only
incidentally benefits you.

It could be argued that the test selects for *altruism*.

>>> This is why I think that it was a sort of critical
>>> thinking test for his readers...
>>
>>It was. You failed. :-)
>
>         Really..?  I suppose I should explain my "critical thinking test"
> comment:  The political system in ST is dressed up in a ripping good SF
> yarn calculated to appeal to an audience of impressionable young males,
> especially those steeped in U.S. culture, and presented in the voice of a
> very sympathetic narrator, written so that said audience can easily
> identify with him, whose character is deeply committed to the preservation
> of said system.  He makes ringing appeals to laudable values, such as
> defending humanity, the admirable valour of those bearing arms in defense
> of their own, etc.
>
>         However, the political system in question is also, IMHO as I've
> outlined above, contra some of the basic principles the U.S. was built
> around... and Heinlein was pretty darn attached to the U.S. IIRC.  And did
> I mention the TF's origins in gangs of armed veterans bearing a remarkable
> resemblance to the post WWI German Freikorps?

So did a lot of posses in the US west after the civil war.

>         Basically, I have a hard time believing that Heinlein was serious
> about the system described in ST.  Rico's narrative is just begging to have
> us read between the lines, and I think that that is what Heinlein was
> hoping the audience would do (I could be reading too much into his
> motivations here, though).  I suspect (although I could be wrong) that he
> deliberately wrote the book as he did so that the more discerning readers
> would pick up on the problems with the political system it describes
> (either on reading or as adults), and realize how the great story, appeals
> to valour and responsibility, and so forth, were really masking a pretty
> nasty political system that was somewhat at odds with the values of the
> society they'd grown up in.

I think his purpose was much simpler. He proposed a *very* alternate
system and shook up a lot of preconceptions. I don't think he thought
the society would work either. But he *was* pointing out things like
the idea that a society can, and pergaps *should* consider not handing
out the vote to every warm body over a certain age.

>         The experience, would, therefore lead to severe honing of the
> reader's bullshit detection faculties, and, also, lead the reader to
> re-examine the values that he believed in himself...  thereby promoting a
> certain amount of free thinking, which, I think, RAH valued.
>
>         I've always wondered what he thought of the fans who took H&MP so
> seriously...

Again, re-read his essays.

BTW, for what it's worth, if *I* was going to redesign society, given
the way Heinlein (I Starship Troopers, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and
eve Stranger in a Strange Land) made me think things over, I'd consider
two changes. One is "easy", the other is hard, but eminently worth
doing if an *objective* test could be found.

1. Regardless of whether you are native or immigrant, you have to take
   the *same* citizenship test. It *really* bugs me when the majority
   of voters aren't familiar with the Bill of Rights, much less have a
   grasp of the basic ideas in the constitution (worst case was the folks
   who were screaming when the courts found a initiative to be
   unconstitutional. They didn't know that one of the main *purposes*
   of the Constitution is to say that there are things that government
   may *not* do!)

2. Some sort of "maturity" test. This needs to be *objective*. If you
   can't pass it, I don't care *how* old you are. You don't drive, you
   don't vote, etc. And if you pass it, I don't care if you are a
   bright, well read 8-year old.

But then, like Heinlein, I'm frequently accused of being an elitist.
And it's true. I *do* believe that some people are better than others.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:44:57 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: How to be a successful Evil Overlord (read that Pirate, matey!) [long]

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[snip]
>
>> 2
>> Learn the real lesson from "The boy who cried wolf" story:
>> Whilst you might want to give your lookout a long lecture about friend/foe
>> recognition and timewasting, you still shoot your lieutenant if he doesn't
>> maintain a sub five minute response time just because
>> "its only another false alarm".
>> Raising a false alarm yourself and then shooting anyone who turns up late
>> should get the message accross.
>
>Standard trick for dealing with someone with a watchdog. Keep
>"triggerring" the watchdog. Eventually, the owner will lock him up,
>just so he can get some sleep. *Then* you attack.


	Naw.  A truly evil Evil Overlord would just have the dog dosed up
on crack and then set him off his leash.  Or bring the dog in and have the
shrubbery carpet-bombed :)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:44:46 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: RE: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

Doug wrote:

>
>In another post, someone mentioned the possibility of MSTing Traveller..
>thought I'd start...
>
>DR. FORRESTER: Bad Evening, toyboy!  Tonight's Experiment is a little
>message from Leroy entitled "The uninitiated and flame wars".. I'm sure
>you'll find it.. painful.
>
>JOEL:  Gee, sirs.. we haven't recovered from "Traveller Malingering List"
>Yet!  Gypsy is still quoting long passages of Keith and stats from the WBH..
>
>T.V's FRANK:  Deal with it
>
><DR. FORRESTER presses the BUTTON>
>
>JOEL, CROW, and TOM SERVO:  We've got post-sign!!!!!
>
[snip]
>TOM SERVO: Midterms available upon request!
>
>
>Well, what did you think, sirs?


	I think that I'm going to have to run out and rent a MST3K from my
video club tonight..:)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2093
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2094



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Citizenship
Re: evading laser fire
Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)
Re: Imperial Citizenship
CSC Designs posted
Re: Imperial Citizenship
re: MST3K?
The Travellers' Aid Society Alien Encyclopedia.
Re: How long is a jump?
Re: Messing with stars
Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:20:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Imperial Citizenship

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> Cleon declared in 17 that "any sentient life form residing in the Third
> Imperium is a citizen, and therefore granted all rights and privileges."

Quite true.  It was also entered into the Canon fairly late in the game
(mid-to-late MT era, I believe).  It certainly wasn't in the Canon when I
began forming my own conception of the Traveller Imperium, so I've been
conveniently ignoring it ever since.

Does this mean my campaign universe has been 'grandfathered'?
And I've never run _Secret of the Ancients_.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:24:03 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: evading laser fire

>It's true that sensors don't really resolve targets; a fire-control lock
>in the new sensor rules typically means a resolution of 100m or so (with a
>accuracy in measuring the position of that blurry blob to 1m), so you don't
>actually know which way the target is facing unless you have a very high
>signal sensor lock.
>
>Bruce

Fair enough but how much integration is assumed here (how many seconds) if
you're on signal threshold for lockon? This integration time should be
added to the sensor+beam lightlag times 1 for position, times 2 for
velocity and times 3 for acceleration measurement.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:27:11 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)

>>What sorts of things are in the Imperial Code of Law? I remember a few,
>>from canonical sources. No Murder (except Right of Assassination). No
>>Civilian Nuclear weapons. Mercenary Tickets. Imperial Edict 99 was
>>another, I think?
>
>No slavery.

No pseudobio robots passing as sophonts.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:35:15 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:20:16 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship (was SST review crap)

>At 02:33 PM 11/12/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:

>>> Which is where I guess my politics and worldview is incompatible with
>>> Heinlein's (and, ObTrav also where it is incompatible with the background
>>> government of the Traveller universe).

>>Although I agree with your worldview, I must disagree with your ObTrav.

>>It seems to me that in Traveller, those with authority are nobles, with
>>land and possessions. Those who are not noble, or have no part of the
>>Imperial bureacracy have no say in how the Imperium is governed.

>>What is the definition of a citizen in the Traveller Universe?

>Cleon declared in 17 that "any sentient life form residing in the Third
>Imperium is a citizen, and therefore granted all rights and privileges."

>(Something close-- don't have those sources available right now.)

F[snip]

>>In fact, it could very well be that if you join an Imperial Career
>>(Navy, Scout, Marines, etc.) that that entitles you to become a citizen
>>of the Imperium, regardless of your homeworld's political status w.r.t.
>>the Imperium.

>Not according to canon.

Sorry, but it is according to canon (Tarsus), in the Boxed module it's
stated that "honourable service in the Imperial forces" gives you
citizenship.

Also from M:0 "Warrent of restoration - Article I, Para 4":
"The Imperium considers citizens any living recognised sentient creature
native to or naturalised by a member world of the Imperium, or any living
sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity,
protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of
the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."

Reading this, if you're born on a member world you're a citizen; if you're
naturalised by a *local* government you're a citizen; and if you swear
fealty (take the Emperor's credit), you're a citizen.

In 17 Cleon declared exctly what a "sentient creature" was. I believe the
precise reference is in the MT referees sourcebook (of which my copy is
on loan to a friend), but it goes something like
"any biological intelligent creature". It's framed to prevent robots from
being citzens. It's refered to in M:0 as "Cleon's Pro-sentient speach"

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:47:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: CSC Designs posted

I've made a number of my CSC designs available on my web page:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/csc_page.html

There's 33 assorted vehicles there now...the number will grow in the
future.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:04:19 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> I've always viewed Imperial Citizenship (at least in the early Imperium) as
> being rather like Roman citizenship.  Being a Roman citizen gave you a _lot_
> of rights over the locals, in any aea Rome controlled.  The extension of
> citizenship to both individuals (such as auxiliaries) and people (such as
> allies) was a powerful political weapon, until there were more citizens than
> non-citizens, at which time one emperor (forget who) granted citizenship to
> all residents of the empire, eliminating the distinction.
> 

The trouble with this model is that it contradicts the Imperium's
hands-off
policy (at least In My Universe) towards local government. I always
pictured
the Imperium as, with few exceptions, ruling the space between the
stars.
Local governments control their own systems, except for starports,
embassies
and cases where they're not fit to do so (because of interdictions, low
Tech Levels, balkanization, etc).

So it doesn't make sense to have Imperial citizens' rights take
precedence 
over locals' rights.

> What are the most important rights of a citizen (as opposed to a resident)?
> 
> 1) Right to trial by an Imperial court (judge or noble with right of
> justice).  Local laws are not as applicable.
> 

Again, that violates the hands-off policy. Unless my interpretation of
that
policy is wrong? I forsee a situation where the player group can say to
a
local policemen "that silly law you locals have about not drinking in
public
doesn't apply to us because we're Imperial citizens". A few of those
incidents
would begin to infuriate the local populace.

Think of what happens when diplomatic immunity is used by criminals to
get
around charges of rape, assault and other serious crimes.

> 2) Exemption from many taxes, especially duties.  Both a subtle edge to
> Imperials, and an incentive to serve the empire for 20 years.
> 

So where is the incentive for a world to voluntarily join the Imperium?
Sure they get great military protection but they have to give up all
those
juicy taxes because everyone paying those taxes will immediately attempt
to
become Imperial citizens.

> These will make more difference on the Frontier.  After all, in the Core most
> people are citizens.

Agreed. The culture of the Imperium and of the local world will be more 
intermixed in the center of the Imperium, so the concept of local
culture will
not be as relevant.

It appears to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that, in order to there
to be
significant benefits to being an Imperial citizen, the Imperium must
give up
its hands-off policy and meddle much more in local affairs.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:35:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: MST3K?

>At 01:45 PM 11/12/97 -0600, I wrote:

>>>Umm? What dat?

Various people responded along the lines of:

>>A television show that used to be (still is???) on the Comedy Central
>>network in the US


Thansk to everyone who explained!

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:01:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The Travellers' Aid Society Alien Encyclopedia.

The Travellers' Aid Society Alien Encyclopedia.
- ------------------------------------------
Publisher IBR Productions, Hemmingen, Germany
ISBN 3-89505-001-6
Cost 250 DM (+30DM postage and packing to UK)

A while ago, one of the German Traveller Mailing List members drew my
attention to the existance of this book, and recommended it. Physically, it
is very impressive - 35mm thick x 270mm deep x 210mm wide, it is hardbound,
covered in a black mock leather, with the kind of ribbon page marker that
you associate with large reference books. It is very definately a quality
item.

However, it's the contents that interested me more. For a while I've owned
both the DGP Alien  Modules, and had started to hanker after the CT
Modules. This book contains all eight alien modules and 'alien realms' (the
scenarios book) published by GDW. In addition, it contains the draft
material 'Aliens for Traveller', an 8 page document originally from GenCon
1981. The alien modules retain their original numbering, and are separated
by colour plates of the original covers. A few pieces of artwork have not
translated well (particularly those with greys on them) but everything is
useable, and the whole book is very tidy.

Those of you who want to know more about the modules are recommended to
look up Tim Collinson's 'The Traveller Bibliography' which has entries on
them all (and is available from BITS).

Would I recommend the book? Well, it depends.

- - Yes, if you don't own the original modules and want them (the cost of the
book was approx =A3115 inc. p&p when I bought it) in a nice, well made format
that should last for a long time. The material is usable with T4
(especially if you are willing to tweak the rules a little and increase
skills handed out).

- - Yes, if you really want a limited edition (200 total) signed by Marc Miller.

- - No, if you already own the Alien modules....

The book was purchased through Fantasy En'Counter in Germany
http://www.mag-net.de/FANEN/index.html ; when I ordered they could only
accept Mastercard or International Money Orders, so I suggest you email
Holger Willert (address at the website) for more details first.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:09:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: How long is a jump?

"Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie> asked:
> If one considers that jumpspace is another continuum where the distance is
> shorter than in real space, just how far is that distance?

IMHO, outside your ship's jump bubble, normal physics don't apply:
Asking about the distance a ship travels through jumpspace is a lot
like asking about the color of time, or chocolate-flavored sine waves.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:31:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Messing with stars

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> > Could I induce a mini-nova or vast planet-cleansing solar flare
> > by this method?
> 
> Novas require white dwarf stars or maybe neutron stars. Solar flares
> are *surface* phenomena. There may be ways to induce them, but that
> requires more knowledge of stellar dynamics than I've got.

Since there is no current knowledge of what induces solar flares, other
than that it has something to do with the suns magnetic field, I quess
this would be up to the referee, but it should involve one heck of a
magnetic field :-)

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:22:47 -0600 (CST)
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

>In another post, someone mentioned the possibility of MSTing Traveller..
>thought I'd start...

<snicker-snak>

>>Try tail of genji, maybe that'll help.

Tale of Genji???

<snicker-snak>

>Well, what did you think, sirs?

Bravo!

Two thumbs up!

"One hell of a rock-and-roll rocket ride!"
  (I just really wanted to use that innane blurb :-)

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

P.S. Watch yourself ... I suspect the fanatical slave-players of the Oracle
of Capital/Core's gaming group will be after you now. Incoming!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:54:04 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

In a message dated 97-11-13 08:18:57 EST, grei5001@uni-trier.de writes:

<< I fear that for the kind of Special FX we would want that movie to have,
 it will polly have a very high pricetag, even with loads of B5-style
 CGI-effects, too high for most indies. So it has to be one of the big
 hollywood companies
  >>

I thought this was the part of Starship Troopers everyone hated...that
someone put the effects above the story.   Maybe a quick vote is in order:

     How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
concentrate first on story, second on effects? (low-budget, possibly
independant Film)

     How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
concentrate first on effects and imagery first, and story second? (Prob
Hi-budget, lavish Hollywood Film)

This is just curiosity....reply at your leisure...
(BTW my vote is for #1)

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:23:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
 
> 	Which reminds me of this idea my classmates and I cooked up one
> evening over a few too many beers...  Just build a very large cinderblock
> warehouse way hellandgone up on Baffin Island.  Provide it with basic
> heating.  Put in basic food preparation facilities, provide the inmates
> with basic indoor clothing, and install exercise bicycles in case they get
> bored or the heating isn't warm enough for them.  Do not put any bars on
> the windows or locks on the doors.
> 
> 	Put up polar bear feeding stations in a 60-kilometer radius around
> the building.  Move them weekly.

Or maybe just a big wall around New York City...;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:43:45 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2089

Excellent post! I'll probably adapt this to my own campaign. My
group is just starting the Traveller Adventure, so this might
be timely.

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> ObTraveller: In my personal Traveller games, the only Imperial Citizens are:
> - Those who have recieved an honorable discharge after at least one full
>   term of service in the Imperial Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, or Imperial
>   Bureaucracy.

I'd add Flyers, Sailors and Diplomats. I'm not sure about Doctors.
However, in the MT/CT rules (the only ones I'm familiar with) you
can't get a dishonourable discharge. So, basically, once you're in
one of those careers, you're a citizen.

> - Those or who have attended the Imperial Merchant Marine Academy and
>   both successfully served at least one term after graduating, and
>   succeeded in the re-enlistment throw.

I wouldn't use this one. The MT Merchant career is totally in the
private sector and thus wouldn't qualify.

> - Imperial Nobility (eg: nobles who participate in the governance of the
>   Imperium) and their immediate families.

This is the peerage. No?

> - Imperial Knights.

Yes, whether hereditary or not. If someone is awarded a knightship
(e.g. a mustering out benefit bumps their Soc to 11) they should still
qualify.

> - Limited-Liability Imperial Corporations.

Yes, for tax reasons. Although, why restrict it to limited liability
corporations? Why not say that any corporation qualifies which is 
headquartered in the Imperium and has Imperial citizens as a majority of 
its controlling officers?

> - Other individuals who have applied for and been granted citizenship in
>   the Imperium (this is relatively rare; you basically have to show how
>   granting you citizenship would benefit the Imperium).
> 

This would require approval at a high level, like Duke or better.

> Citizenship is a fairly powerful right in my version of the Imperium;
> citizens may call on the Emperor's Justice and the Emperor's Protection.
> 

Both concepts are good. I like 'em and will, as stated before, 
adapt them.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:33:37 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         I suppose that before I begin, I should state my opinion of the
> political system RAH described in ST (the book; I will not refer to that
> abortion of a movie as Verhoeven IMHO slightly exaggerated the fascist
> aspects of the book).  This way, it'll be clear what I'm saying and this
> thread won't turn into a classic net.exercise of us launching all-out
> nuclear assaults on the wrong positions only to find out nobody was at home
> :).
> 

Your concern is justified, judging from the type of traffic I've
seen on this list over the last couple of years.

Let me begin by complimenting you on an excellent post. While not
relevant to Traveller per se, it was well thought out and well
written. I'm thinking that I might insert it into the ST book.

I am one of those disaffected people to whom the politics described 
in ST appealed. Your points made me sit back and think (a painful 
process this early in the morning) and I thank you for it.

>         Limited franchise (in the loosest sense; having some access or the
> potential for access to political power), involving various forms of public
> service, is common to many totalitarian regimes.  The Nazis weren't all SS
> or SA; they also had any number of auxiliary organizations; labour corps,
> youth groups, academics, and so forth.  They were pretty big on service to
> the Volk.  Ditto the Chinese Communist Party.  IMHO, this is pretty
> suspect.  Two or more years of living in a total institution (recall those
> "last free choice for the next two years" lines, presumably undergoing a
> fair bit of indoctrination, before getting access to the franchise, ought
> to iron out the troublemakers...  especially as those gaining access have a
> vested interest in maintaining the system as a universal franchise would
> dilute their voting power.
> 

While I tire of the incessant comparisons with the evil Nazi regime that
get brought up all too often in the media today, your point about 
"undergoing a fair bit of indoctrination" is a good one. 

A society can be thought of as a living organism. The primary function
of any organism is to survive. A society survives by ensuring that those
elements which make it a society take precedence over those that don't.
In this situation, it is in the interests of society to ensure that the 
people with power think the same way.

This can be good and bad. Limiting the power to change society to 
those people least likely to do it will ensure that the society
survives relatively unchanged. It also means that the society doesn't
progress.

The advantage to limiting who can change society (read: vote) is that
it ensures a static environment where everybody knows their rules and
duties. The advantage to making the vote universal is that it ensures
that the society will be a constantly evolving organism. Whether or not
societal change is a good thing is open to debate. 

I think that's the crux of the matter here. Do we want society to
change?

>         Limited franchise, capital punishment, emphasis on corporal
> punishment... it sounds a lot more like Singapore than it does Sweden to me
> :).
> 

Yes, it does. I've already touched on limited franchise, so I'll cover
capital punishment and corporal punishment now.

Whether or not capital punishment is a good thing depends on the goal
you are trying to achieve. I'm not going to wade into the argument over
this contentious issue now. I'm just suggesting that a person examines
what they hope capital punishment will get society and judge its
worth based on that. Personally, I favor it because it meets the goal
I have for it.

ST's use of corporal punishment is effective not because it is 
physical and painful but because it is humiliating. Flogging a thief
causes some short term pain (and possibly long term scars) but may
not deter that person from stealing again. Publicly flogging a thief, 
where the audience consists of people the thief knows and lives around,
accomplishes two things.

First, it brands that person as a thief to the public. For quite some
time afterward, the relationship between the thief and the public
will be significantly different. The thief will be in a sort of 
exile. I suspect that this secondary punishment will have much more
lasting (and, hopefully, deterrent) effects than the initial pain.

Second, the mental anguish caused by public humiliation is a more
effective punishment than what the physical pain causes. It is this
aspect of the punishment, not the pain itself, that constitutes the
reason for the flogging in the first place.

I suspect that if one were to look at the crime rates, especially
recidivist crimes, of countries that use public corporal punishment
(Saudi Arabia comes to mind) compared to crime rates of those that
don't (Canada and the U.S.), one would find that the ST punishment
system works.

>         However, I think that the concept of rights is one of the most
> significant  intellectual developments in human history; I don't think it's
> a coincidence that the most successful, advanced, and prosperous societies
> in human history subscribe to it.  And I think that aside from the various
> liberal (in the classic sense, not the debased sense current in U.S.
> political slang) arguments for human rights being pragmatically useful, I
> think that they're morally speaking essential for any society that wishes
> to call itself just.  If nothing else, the most heinous regimes in history
> have held human rights in low regard.
> 

Or, have held human rights in low regard compared to other rights, like
the
rights of the government and other social institutions. Every society
has
some concept of human rights; where those rights rank on the totem pole
of priorities is part of what defines a society.

While I agree that the concept of human rights is one of the most
significant developments we've ever done, I'm not sure you can 
claim that the most successful, advanced and prosperous societies
subscribe to it. You _seem_ (correct me if I'm wrong) to be saying that
those societies placed human rights at the top, or near the top, of
the totem pole.

I point to the ancient Eyptians, the Romans and the Greeks, whose
ideas of human rights pertained only to a select few members of society,
as examples of successful societies which didn't have human rights
high up on the list. Also, look at the Mongol hordes and the Japanese
empire of old.

Our modern society is less than seven hundred (in the case of
Europe and Britain) years old. That's hardly long enough to call us
successful.

>         Both it is then.  Remember, democracy as we know it did not spring
> into existence in its current form... it's evolved.  A notable example is
> the extension of the franchise to women.  Please don't think that I'm
> setting up Western civilization's concept of democracy as perfect; I think
> we've got a ways to go yet before we get it right.
> 
 
I agree with you. I'm not sure that we'll ever get it right. Political 
systems are (to paraphrase George Lucas) like movies: they're never
finished, they're just abandoned. Or, to use a software development
idiom: there's always one more bug.

>         Ye gods!  I am appalled.  Frankly, RAH couldn't have thought that
> one through.  What about the case of the ditzy, debauched, no-good lush
> who's never worked a day in his life who inherits a vast estate from his
> father?  How is he more deserving than a skilled, hard-working tradesman
> who unfortunately doesn't own enough land to qualify for the franchise?

Good examples.

> Didn't he realize that depriving the poor of political clout (even if it's
> purely symbolic) is what's led to every single major revolution that I can
> think of?
> 

The act of depriving the poor of political clout hasn't caused any
revolutions of which I'm aware. What's caused revolutions is the
gaining of a different kind of power by the poor, one which the
leaders of society cannot control. For example, the invention of
the printing press in Europe gave rise to dramatically increased
literacy among the poor, which made them powerful thinkers, which
led them to question their current form of government.

It was no act of deprivation that caused the French Revolution; it
was the growing discontent of the working class once their education
had increased to the point where they could question their environment.

Heinlein's society pretty much assumes that the non-enfranchised
are content with things the way they are. If that situation changes,
then the ST society will collapse.

>         Which brings me to the irrationality of the franchise system in ST.
> Apparently, two years of shovelling dirt in Antarctica will get you the
> franchise.  However, Johnny Rico's father, a businessman whose activity
> provides employment for a large number of people, whose disposable income
> provides support for many other individuals in various sectors, and whose
> business therefore must provide goods or services that society finds
> extremely valuable, cannot vote.
> 

Yes, because in ST, the values of society take precedence over the 
values of the individual. The fact that Rico's father provides 
income for others is irrelevant, since the number of people he supports
is small. It's what he's done for society as a whole that counts, even
if
the gesture is only symbolic (like shovelling dirt).

>         The only justification provided for this is that the labour
> battalion veteran has, well, signed up for Federal service and shovelled
> some dirt, thereby putting his life, or at least his big toes, on the line
> in order to provide holes in the ground in Antarctica (or something) for
> his society.  However, IMHO, Rico Sr.'s contribution to society is hands
> down much greater.  So basically, the limitation on the franchise appears
> to be ideological or political, since it's not exactly rational... which,
> again, smacks of fascism.
> 

Rico's dad's contribution is greater from our point of view. We live
in a society that values individuals (and their rights) over society
(and its rights). So we tend to look at things from that focus.

Picture us living in the ST society. We are told that individual rights
take precedence over societal needs. We are given several examples where
people successfully get laws changed because of perceived infractions on
their rights. We would shake our heads in astonishment because such
notions
would be totally foreign to us.

Don't take anything here personally. I'm not advocating the ST society
or
our own. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Whether one is better than
the
other depends, to a great deal, on what one expects a society to
achieve.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:20:32 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)

Question (for Rob);
So this thing can lift a one-ton cargo container.  Can it lift a container
full of superdense?  or just one full of feathers?

You must be using (as I saw from another post) the "standard" amount of
mass per Kl of cargo space, wha tis that figure and shouldn't you include
that in the description?

Just wanted you to know these things don't just go by without being read.

Pete

P.S. Cargo containers in prior verions of Traveller were 4 tons, right?
Why the switch to one-ton?


>Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)
>Designed by Robert Prior
>
>Summary:
>     1.20 displacement ton open frame;  8.44 tonnes;  Cr 6956
>Chassis:
>     16.8 kL open frame (11 m long x 1.6 m wide x 1.6 m high);  Structure:
>422 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick, 1 armour rating
>
>Performance:
>     95.0 kW TL11 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 3.75 L of enriched water
>(3.75 kg), 100 hours supply
>     Propulsion System: 95.0 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power;
>Maximum Speed: 20 km/h;
>Range: 2025 km;  Agility: +2DM (0.8G)
>Crew:
>     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station
>Communications:
>     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL11, SmVcl)
>Sensors:
>     No sensors installed.
>Other:
>     14.0 kL of modular cargo space
>
>Spaceports need a simple means of shifting standardized cargo containers. The
>Ralston cargo lifter is designed to shift standard one ton cargo containers
>from place to place within the starport. It is an open framework of
>structurecomp with a small power plant, some contragrav lifters, an operator
>station, and cargo grapples.
>
>
>Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2094
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2095



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: How long is a jump?
Re: Dune
Re: The Politics of ST...
Playing The Lottery
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Re:Messing with Stars
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2094
Re: How long is a jump?
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2088

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:20:39 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Speaking of the Marches -- who would play Admiral Santanocheev?

Brion James

I just /had/ to work him in somewhere... :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:20:51 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: How long is a jump?

Justin Durkan wrote:
> 
> May already be answered in a FAQ, but I'll pose the question anyway.
> 
> How far does a ship "travel" in jumpspace??

dunno. In jumpspace, distance to every destination is nearly zero.

> When a ship jumps, it leaves one part of normal space and a week later
> arrives in another part of normal space. In the interim the ship is
> "travelling" in another space.
> If one considers that jumpspace is another continuum where the distance is
> shorter than in real space, just how far is that distance?

Distance doesn't have much meaning in jumpspace.

> Does the ship move at all in this other continuum, or can one enter this
> space and ultimately exit in a different place without moving in jumpspace?

Strange as it may seem, the ship is moving yet isn't while in jumpspace.
See below for my explanation.

> Does jumping involve the warping of real space between the two endpoints to
> make the distance travelled zero, and the operation takes a week to take
> effect?

Not exactly.

> Does jumpspace outside/beside/within real space and the ship moves within
> this otherness?
> 
> Any ideas???

Here's my latest view of jumpspace. (influenced by MM's recent post)
YMMV

Jumpspace is an alternate tachyon universe, the speed of light is the
_lower_ limit. A ship surrounded by its jumpspace bubble, acts as a
tachyon. It travels at infinite velocity in jumpspace.

Therefore, if you were to draw a line in realspace between the source
point A and destination B, it could exist at all points along the line
at once. Since it exists simultaneously at A and B, it isn't really
travelling. A large intervening gravity well can disrupt this line,
forcing the ship to precipitate out of jumpspace at that point.

Note that the ship doesn't actually travel along that realspace line, it
exists only in Jumpspace. There is a one-to-one mapping of realspace to
jumpspace, with one notable exception: areas experiencing significant
tidal forces.

These high-gravity areas create "voids" in jumpspace, causing two
effects:

1. A ship cannot precipitate out of jumpspace into an area roughly 100
dia. from a Terra density world.

2. If a ship tries to enter jumpspace within this distance, it becomes
impossible to predict exactly where the ship enters jumpspace. (ie. at
what point along the void's boundry the ship enters jumpspace)

Effect 2. is the source of many misjumps, as the ship's "vector" may
veer wildly off course.

> Is there a canon definition on what is going on in this other space?

Not that I'm aware of.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:56:06 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Dune

At 09:40 PM 11/12/97 EST, Kenji wrote:
<Big Snip>...
>ObTrav:  The set design and costuming of the movie _Dune_ are, I think,
>great inspiration for Milieu Zero and the later Third Imperium.
>

In my game space ship control panels do sometimes have wood-grain
panelling.  The whole pseudo-victorian look was cool - if the tech gets
high enough, form can follow function without being all aluminum and plastic...



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:04:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:11:22 -0600
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

[Cue 80s music:  "...the politics of oooooo, feelin' good..."  (Sorry)]

> >As for the death penalty showing disregard for "_the_ fundamental human
> >right" I thought you were arguing that there is no such thing as rights
> >outside a legal framework? As for disregard for this "right"--perhaps it's
> >actually UPHOLDING this right _if applied only to respond to other
> >violations of this right_.  Because otherwise you're saying that the
> >murderer's human right to live outweighs the victim's right to live, _which
> >that murderer has abrogated._
> 
> 	Nope.  I'm just saying that _generally_, human rights in Western
> society are concieved in such a way (i.e. framed in legislation) that the
> taking of life is heavily sanctioned and only justified in a few
> circumstances such as war or self-defence.  Generally speaking, the
> "grundnorms", or basic moral beliefs expressed in the legal frameworks in
> question, hold that life is the basic right.  This tends to get expressed
> in constitutions: the U.S. Bill of Rights, IIRC, has something to say about
> "Life, liberty, and happiness" right at the beginning.

Tsk tsk -- and you're about to take a bar exam?? :)  (Yeah, yeah, I know,
not your country...)  The phrase "Life, liberty, and *the pursuit of*
happiness" (my emphasis)  appears in the Preamble to the Declaration of
Independence -- a document which predates the USA by 13 years, and has no
legal status whatsoever. 

The US Constitution (including its amendments) contains nothing about the
"right to life."  The Constitution is more of a meta-law than a law in the
traditional sense; it describes how the process of creating, executing,
and reviewing ordinary laws works, who may vote in elections, who may hold
elected office, and so forth.  Only in a few cases (e.g., setting up an
intellectual property framework) does it descend into the realm of
ordinary law.

Most of the amendments to the Constitution have been clarifications of
what fields are open to regulation by ordinary law.  For example, the
First Amendment forbids ordinary laws from abridging free speech, the
Fifth from compelling self-incriminating testimony, and so forth.  Most of
the rest have been revisions in the government's operating procedures
(e.g., changing the voting age, or removing gender-based exclusion from
voting rights).  Only a few amendments have descended into the realm of
ordinary law (e.g., Prohibition and its repeal), and these are generally
regarded to be a bad idea by most Constitutional theorists. 

> 	The death penalty debate in your country AFAIK has significant
> constitutional-interpretation overtones.  IIRC, at one point the U.S.
> Supreme Court decided that capital punishment was unconstitutional, and it
> took a certain amount of political padding of the bench to get a
> sufficiently right-wing court to later overturn that ruling...  So,
> basically, IIRC, what U.S. death penalty proponents are saying is that yes,
> life is a fundamental right, but that your constitution allows it to be
> overridden.

Not true.  This is an Eight Amendment issue, centering around the question
of whether execution is a "cruel and unusual" punishment.  In other words,
any other punishment that possibly violated the "cruel and unusual" 
criterion (e.g. public whipping a la ST) would be subject to exactly the
same sort of judicial review.  Death is not singled out as a special case. 

> 	This, as I've pointed out, is a pretty unique position :).

It would be, if it were true. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:02:49 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Playing The Lottery

Marc Miller wrote:
>Extract from the Gambling Skill text in T4.1
>	Compulsive Gambling. Some people feel they are destined to win and routinely
>play at gambling games.
>
>	To play the lottery (once per week)
>	(6) >Impossible (6D)
>	Pay Cr10 for a ticket. Roll 6 ones and win Cr250,000.
>	Roll 5 ones to win Cr25,000. Roll 4 ones to win Cr2,500. Roll 3 ones to win
>Cr250. Roll 2 ones to win Cr25. Gambling skill does not affect the lottery.
>

  I remeber reading a really nifty article about a society that didn't have
taxes.
They had lot's of lotteries instead.  Buying tickets daily was a sign of
good citizenship.  Folks wore their tickets to show their support.  If you
didn't have several upto date tickets around your neck, you wouldn't get
very far in trying to get anything done.


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Meatspace" - The physical world (as opposed to the virtual world), also 
"carbon community."
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:49:32 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>
>> Speaking of the Marches -- who would play Admiral Santanocheev?
>
>Brion James
>
>I just /had/ to work him in somewhere... :)

That would be great!  And, speaking of character actors, we really need to
invoke the Stanton/Walsh law and get one or both of them in, too <G>.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@acceesone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:48:28 +0000
From: David Asman <DASMAN@CMS.CC.Wayne.Edu>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Having come into this discussion a little later, I just joined the TML,
has there been any discussion of what era the movie would cover.  It
seems like most of the discussion so far indicates a movie set in 1116
or so.  Considering the current direction of T4 products wouldn't any
Traveller movie concern itself with Cleon and the formation of the 3rd 
Imperium.

paz, 
	dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:49:36 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

Ed Jenkins wrote:

>I thought this was the part of Starship Troopers everyone hated...that
>someone put the effects above the story.   Maybe a quick vote is in order:
>
>     How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
>concentrate first on story, second on effects? (low-budget, possibly
>independant Film)
>
>     How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
>concentrate first on effects and imagery first, and story second? (Prob
>Hi-budget, lavish Hollywood Film)
>
>This is just curiosity....reply at your leisure...
>(BTW my vote is for #1)

Any bozo can make a sci-fi film with oodles of special effects and computer
graphics, these days.  Much harder to make any of it memorable half an hour
after you leave the theater.  Definitely #1 gets my vote; keep the focus on
the story and actors' performances.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:45:42 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

At 08:04 AM 11/13/97 -0700, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>Rob Prior wrote:
>> I've always viewed Imperial Citizenship (at least in the early Imperium) as
>> being rather like Roman citizenship.  Being a Roman citizen gave you a
_lot_
>> of rights over the locals, in any aea Rome controlled...
>
>The trouble with this model is that it contradicts the Imperium's
>hands-off policy (at least In My Universe) towards local government.

I actually do not think it does.  If this status is possessed by few
people, and had certain special considerations, then it could be quite
manageable, and a source of a lot of role playing tension.

>Local governments control their own systems, except for starports,
>embassies and cases where they're not fit to do so (because of
>interdictions, low Tech Levels, balkanization, etc).

Or where the Imperium feels bold enough to take control.  For their own
survival, they cannot do it often, but I suspect there is something in
there about being able to nationalize damn near anything, if war demanded it.

>So it doesn't make sense to have Imperial citizens' rights take
>precedence over locals' rights.

Do note, though, that the Warrant of Restoration explicitly prevents a
member world from taking away a right or privilege.  To make this work, the
rights and privileges better either be high profile and acceptable, or low
profile.

>> What are the most important rights of a citizen (as opposed to a resident)?
>> 
>> 1) Right to trial by an Imperial court (judge or noble with right of
>> justice).  Local laws are not as applicable.
>
>Again, that violates the hands-off policy. Unless my interpretation of
>that policy is wrong? I forsee a situation where the player group can say to
>a local policemen "that silly law you locals have about not drinking in
>public doesn't apply to us because we're Imperial citizens". A few of those
>incidents would begin to infuriate the local populace.

This is why the Imperium would choose to not hear the case in most
instances.  If you are drinking on a Moslem world, they may well just let
you hang.  On the other hand, they may not, and I suspect there are very
fine gradations.  I suspect also that your drinking might be punished far
less by the Marines than the locals, but if you piss off the local police,
and the Base Commander decides that it was inappropriate, he will likely
deal with you harshly - not for drinking, but for damaging the relationship
between the Imperium and a valued client state.

For what it is worth, I am using the policy that active duty military are
always tried only by courts-martial, who may choose to punish them by
turning them over to the local justice system for an egregious crime, but
will usually restrict themselves to standard punishments for breaking the
Military Code.  Part of that code does involve not damaging diplomatic
relations.  Former military with an honorable discharge keep the same
privilege, but its strength is reduced, as the JAG does not look at itself
as your personal problem solver, but does not want valued crew being
flattened by bizarre local customs.

Nobles also are a separate class.  These are the equivalents of the foreign
diplomats, and with the military, are like Roman citizens.  There are
roughly 1.2 nobles per million people in the Imperium, according to my
current economic rules.  This makes the numbers small enough to manage, but
big enough to be visible.  They stay an aristocracy, and they get
appropriate privilege.

>Think of what happens when diplomatic immunity is used by criminals to
>get around charges of rape, assault and other serious crimes.

This is, indeed, why the Imperial courts leave military personnel to their
internal JAG, and why they only really deal with nobles.  Further, the
Imperium does not appreciate being called in when crimes happen, so they
are going to expect the noble to look after themselves.  On the other hand,
those nobles represent real power, and they are not going to let a foolish
local law harm on of the movers and shakers.  This balance is fine, and one
the MoJ is used to.

>> 2) Exemption from many taxes, especially duties.  Both a subtle edge to
>> Imperials, and an incentive to serve the empire for 20 years.
>
>So where is the incentive for a world to voluntarily join the Imperium?
>Sure they get great military protection but they have to give up all
>those juicy taxes because everyone paying those taxes will immediately
attempt
>to become Imperial citizens.

Most of them might try, but most will fail.  Consider that nobles are one
in a million, and most of those are nonhereditary knighthoods.  Further,
the Imperium does need that many people in either the Fleet or the Marines.
 As a result, they can usually get the best.

Consider also that most of the bennies that accrue to the ex marine or
Fleet person are less important than those that accrue to nobility.  Having
military pensions tax free, and various boosts to living conditions will
not hurt the local planet that much, and often acts as a technology
transfer mechanism.

>It appears to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that, in order to there
>to be significant benefits to being an Imperial citizen, the Imperium must
>give up its hands-off policy and meddle much more in local affairs.

I have never interpreted the hands off policy as strictly as you do, and my
system seems to work for me, so I would say that you are right.  It does
not take much weakening of the policy, though, to have the kind of citizen
than Rob was discussing be reasonable.  If you assume that this is the
position of the noble and the soldier, and that the noble position is the
only on which is allowed to do random rapine and pillage, it is feasible.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:58:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re:Messing with Stars

Hmmm... Star Detonation for fun and Profit eh?
<Checks to see if Hengebar is around>

Ok, heres a 'canonical' reference:

The Dariens (Daryens?) Used their "Star Trigger" to destabalise their own 
sun.  From what I remember it shot mesons into the core of a star.  This was 
an experiment and was not intened to be a weapon.

Now for the not so canonical:

Other ways I have played with are disrupting the magnetic field of the star. 
 Or inducing a high gravity "pulse" within the star.  I would think either 
of these could cause some intesting effects.

How about a nuke damper?  What would happen if we put nuke damper satalites 
in orbit and fired on the star?  Seeming as stars are one big nuclear 
reaction....

<In his best Artie Johnson voice>
Verrrrrrry interesting.....

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:20:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

[I am going out of town and my not be able to reply to
some posts, depending on mail...]
Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:44:16 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

Well, I don't agree that every dispersed ship will be within one
jump of it's destination (meaning that is there is a more than
the two week delay you invoke).  I also don't think you are going
to be able to have all these forces jump blind to the front and
start action, you are going to have collect them up an make
sure they aren't jumping into system that have already
been taken or doing other things that don't make sense.
That mean that dispersing the forces that are raised and
based at the subsector level _is_ a reduction in readyness.
I also think that the logistics of all this is going to
be a big distraction in the crucial early days of the war
(and we haven't gotten to how you are supporting all these
ships in systems without any bases)

[and if I was looking at what didn't make sense I would say
that the background problem lies more in  scattering half your
forces to all those backwater areas rather than piracy
exisiting.]

However, I simply don't have time to go into the kind of
detail you are getting into, so that I will have to
say that I find it hard to believe that you can take
ships and disperse them to every world in the Imperium
without significantly affecting piracy (After all,
we could use military personell based in the US
to guard banks without changing the time it takes
them to travel to Europe, or whever, but it would
reduce readiness) and be content with that.

Regarding armed merchants contributing to convoy defense.
>David, aren't you the one that is always insisting that people will not
>pay for protection against pirates, because the losses won't outweigh
>the expense?

No, I'm saying _some_ people wouldn't.  Others will be in the
job of collecting particularly valuable, sensitive, etc. goods
or are designated for transporation of war goods.  As to them
being "indiffernt warships", if you have a convoy with, say,
10 merchants for each naval vessel the "indiferent" ability
they have can well make a difference in a battle.

>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?

So he doesn't attack those ships.

>you keep coming up with other parts of the canon
>that dosen't make sense if piracy does.

Well, no I don't.  Canon doesn't have military ships dispersed
to _every_ system in the Imperium (there would need to be
a base in every system, if not on every world).  Nor do I
think the one thing I have disagreed with (dispersing to
the subsector level) means that piracy won't exist.
I do think it's dumb, but even if it did make piracy
impossible, rather than saying piracy should be dropped
from the background (leaving the other problems in place)
it would be better to fix the problem with deployment.

>>The worst case is even worse since, if yoy have your ships dispersed, how do
>>you protect the messenger ships that you send to tell everyone to form up.
>
>You just argued (correctly, IMO) that scout forces would be safe from
>interception because they don't have to go near a planet. Why in the
>world do you suddenly feel that a courier has to risk jumping in anywhere
>near a risk point?

Because the ship jumping in doesn't know where the enemy is and
will be out of fuel to jump away.  The picket will be sitting
there with fuel and will spot the enemy first (from their
jump signature while he sits on low power with a low profile).

>>>Most of the merchant ships in the first
>>>system the raiders get to will be in deep shit. So will the ones arriving
>>>at that system for the next 14 days.

>>The cost of these losses (which would not occur if they weren't
>>dispersed for piracy)

>Come again? You want the marginal systems to have no defenses at all.

And if you have dispersed ships to them in small numbers, they
can be picked off by even modest sized forces.

> This is only true if you make three unwarranted assumptions:
>That it is possible to surprise a ship by jumping into a system close to
>it, that achieving surprise will allow you to destroy said ship, and that
>any sane raider CO will jump in close enough to have his command wiped out
>if a battleship squadron just happens to be passing by.

Well, if the attacking force knows that you have disperesed
their fleets, they know they can take a modest sized fleet
and mop up.  As to being able destroy a ship before it
jumps.  If you are moving your dispersed forces around,
they will be arriving low on fuel and can be picked off.
Regarding picking off the forces buy jumping in, it is
cannon that you can jump in an defeat a local force.  If
it wasn't true, then much of Traveller military
history is wrong.  I'm not sure how they relate this
to the ship combat rules.  Maybe they use the jump
suppressors though I have a rule that you can't jump
in battle because the energy releases disrupt the field.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:27:32 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2094

>Fair enough but how much integration is assumed here (how many seconds) if
>you're on signal threshold for lockon? This integration time should be
>added to the sensor+beam lightlag times 1 for position, times 2 for
>velocity and times 3 for acceleration measurement.
Integration time is about 0.05 seconds.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:24:49 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: How long is a jump?

On 13 Nov 97 at 12:20, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

This is like the old problem of the fly in an airplane.

Just before take off, a fly enters an airplane.  The plane is full and he is never allowed 
to land (for any appreciable amount of time).  It spends the entire trip buzzing up and 
down the aisles.

Now, if the flight is 500 miles, did the fly actually fly 500 miles?

The answer is no.   Thanks in part to relativity.  If you walked up and down the aisles 
the entire flight, you wouldn't have walked 500 miles.  Because in the time it took you to 
take one step, the plane had covered 1/4 a mile or more.

Same for the fly.  It may be in the air, but the speeds are not the same.

So with jumpspace, your ship is functioning and 'moving', but the bubble is moving much, 
much faster than the ship.

Kevin
 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:45:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:02 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>It makes sense to spend the extra few megacreds per vessel to give the
>information gathering wessels a few piddling weapons.

Well, you might take the cannon ship for this purposes, and
arm it.  But I don't see one or two armed scout doing much
to keep piracry from a system.

>If an unarmed patrol ship jumps into a system with hostile forces at
>refueling points, then the patrol ship is SOL, DOA and will be reported
>MIA.

An armed scout doesn't have much chance of getting through either.

>On the one hand, you say the Imperium won't bother with the
>disappearance of a few pirated vessels, because compared to the Gross
>Production of the Imperium, it's peanuts.

>On the other hand, you seem to believe that a patrol ships spread evenly
>across 1400 or so systems is a vast waste of resources.

This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.

>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>sufficient.

Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.

>We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
>*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
>sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
>your movements would travel.

It depends on how far you are talking.  Sure you might have
to cover 12 or 18 parsecs in.  But Zhodani ships aren't
going to launch a sneak attack on Capital.

>> No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>> where the random patrols are not.
>
>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?

They don't attack anyone.

>Besides, patrols are "canon" too. Check out the ship encounter charts.

Yes they are.  And it is also cannon that they do not appear
on every system all the time.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:45:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:02 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>It makes sense to spend the extra few megacreds per vessel to give the
>information gathering wessels a few piddling weapons.

Well, you might take the cannon ship for this purposes, and
arm it.  But I don't see one or two armed scout doing much
to keep piracry from a system.

>If an unarmed patrol ship jumps into a system with hostile forces at
>refueling points, then the patrol ship is SOL, DOA and will be reported
>MIA.

An armed scout doesn't have much chance of getting through either.

>On the one hand, you say the Imperium won't bother with the
>disappearance of a few pirated vessels, because compared to the Gross
>Production of the Imperium, it's peanuts.

>On the other hand, you seem to believe that a patrol ships spread evenly
>across 1400 or so systems is a vast waste of resources.

This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.

>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>sufficient.

Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.

>We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
>*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
>sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
>your movements would travel.

It depends on how far you are talking.  Sure you might have
to cover 12 or 18 parsecs in.  But Zhodani ships aren't
going to launch a sneak attack on Capital.

>> No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>> where the random patrols are not.
>
>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?

They don't attack anyone.

>Besides, patrols are "canon" too. Check out the ship encounter charts.

Yes they are.  And it is also cannon that they do not appear
on every system all the time.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:34:48 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2088

>>No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>>where the random patrols are not.
>
>Assuming they can afford to wait that long. What with all the other
>economic problems that pirates have I'm not sure that a good number of
>random patrols won't be enough to deter most pirates. Imagine if a
>getaway car cost twenty times the average loot from a bank heist and
>couldn't be easily stolen (and had to refuel every time it hit a new
>town). How long do you think it would take the police to track down
>a group of professional bank robbers? Or imagine that hijacking a
>truck required the use of a tank. How many trucks do you think you
>would lose? Or even that pirating an surface ship required a small
>destroyer. How many actual one-ship-chase-down-another-and-board-it-in-
>the-smoke piracies have there been in the Atlantic lately? When was the
>last time a bunch of pirates with a ship the size and worth of its
>victim captured a ship in the real world?

>It's all very well to compare
>Traveller pirates with bank robbers, hijackers, and even modern day
>pirates, but none of those criminals need to invest a fortune in their
>basic equipment.

Well, just for the record, I diagree that piracy is impossible,
but I don't have an opinion on the question of why a pirate
wouldn't just sell the ship.  (I mentioned this when I responded
to your first posts decades (centuries? :-) ago, but you may
not recollect).  I just don't think the Imperium can wipe out
piracy without cost.  I do have doubts that piracy alone would be
sufficient to validate ship ownership (though I'm not sure on
that.  Maybe it would work for Vargr corsairs who have someplace
to which they can retreat to avoid the kind of heat that consistent
losses of ships, to justify the cost of ship ownership, and lives
might generate).  I also might see pirate keeping the ship because

a) They are actually making money from it with legit and
other illegit activities (aka smuggling).
b) They aren't making money and are desperate to keep it
because "business if just about to turn arond" or the
don't want to admit failure.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2095
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 13 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2096



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
[T97#2088] Getting TravLang...
Imperial Law and Stuff
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Messing with stars
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: Yet more piracy
Pirate ships (shortish!; & not philosophy...)
Re: Piracy (not ST...)
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
STUDS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:33:59 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
To: 'Traveller Mailing List' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 5:27 AM
Subject: Compiled Sector Data Available


Douglas,
If you could sent it in Excell 5 I would be grateful. Thanks.

Letterworks@Comten.com


>It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll save
>it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size
>(which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send it
>once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)
>
>Let me know if you are interested!
>
>douglas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:36:17 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

At 11:22 AM 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote:

>P.S. Watch yourself ... I suspect the fanatical slave-players of the Oracle
>of Capital/Core's gaming group will be after you now. Incoming!!!

I recently acquired a .23cal two-barrelled derringer.  Right now, Only one
chamber is usable due to corrosion.  This should be sufficient firepower to
deal with the expected horde.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:26:05 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2088] Getting TravLang...

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:35:02 -0500, Derek Wildstar
<wildstar@qrc.com> wrote...

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
>> <hiss> Join us, Derek... <hiss> Come to the TravLang list... <hiss>  =
It is
>> your destiny... <hiss>

>No.  I am a Jedi, like my father before me.  (and I don't know the =
address)

Send your request to listserv@mail.execnet.com with a body line
of=20

subscribe travlang

and you should be OK.  I also have reason (but no confirmation)
to believe that you can also do it by following the instructions
at Freelance Traveller >InfoCenter >Traveller on the Net.

>> Are certain of the sounds listed below always produced with ingressive=
 or
>> always with egressive airflow?

>I assumed that certain sounds are always produced with ingressive =
airflow
>(perhaps some of the vowels?), and that the language included enough of
>them that you'd not run out of air during a sentance.

It's not clear from the "canonical" material in _Rats_and_Cats_,
but my feeling was that certain _words_ were always pronounced on
an inhale, rather than specific _sounds_.  Trokh is an odd
language in that many if not most "common" utterances are
"self-contained" (i.e., not analyzable into parts).  The
canonical example is that knowing "dinner" and "is-ready" does
not give you "dinner is ready".

If/when TravLang gets to Trokh, I think I will flesh out the
concepot that Trokh consists of three vocabularies and two
grammars; the three vocabs are Male, Female, and Common; the two
grammars are Traditional/Common, and Warrior/Technical.  I can
elaborate on this idea in the appropriate place at the
appropriate time.

>> >  Learning the entire Trokh language, vocabulary, and grammar is far =
too
>> >  difficult for most Traveller players (and writers!).  However, a =
random
=20
>> Sounds almost like a DARE, Mr. Wildstar... <G>

>DO.  Or do not.  There is no dare ...

Thou treadst on dangerous ground, thane Wildstar.  Were it not
that we already work on Vilani, thy challenge would be taken up
eagerly and with alacrity at once.  As it is, we'll have to defer
it for a while...

>> Publish! Publish!=20

>OK, I probably will.  UNless anyone else is interested (Loren?), I'll
>convert it to HTML and put it up on the Web.

Or, if you don't want to put in the effort, email it to me, and
it will appear in Freelance Traveller.

>> And we _need_ this sort of creativity over on TravLang.

Seconded, reseconded, and passed by acclimation.

>OK, what's the -request address for TravLang?

See above...

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:57:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Law and Stuff

Someone commented a MoJ Imperial Audit would only be about fraud against
the Imperium. But of course ... what else does the Imperium care about
except for No Nukes, No Slavery and Obey Imperial Authority (aka Pay Taxes
and Oppose Piracy) ?

If the MoJ thinks a world is deliberatly understating it's income to avoid
taxes, then an audit is definitly in order.Remember, Economics is
Everything :)

About the ST morality thing ... one thing I strongly think is that when
analysing a form of government, one should look at how easily it can be
rigged.

The State in the ST universe has lots of weak points in this regard,
notably the ability to rig the selection of Federal Service to either deny
the franchise to anyone who doesnt go through a two year ideology lesson
("Your Federal Serivce involves two years at a Psychological Research
Facility in Yucatan, where you get to assist the State in techniques to
iron out leftover regard for Individualism") or to legally kill Enemies of
the State by assigning them to a Suicide Squad ("Your Federal Service
involves an unsupported combat jump onto Klendathu. You dont want to ?
Thats a court martial offense and we're at war. Time for an abbreviated
court martial (*bang*). You do ? OK").

One more cheap shot. You want more people to vote in the US ? Allow anyone
to lodge a postal ballot for any reason, or put put the voting day on a
weekend or public holiday, when working people can bloody well get to a
voting booth. The reason the US keeps a working Tuesday as election day is
that it is (a) tradition and (b) to the factional advantage of the
Republican Party to minimize voter turnout. Dumping first past the post
could help too.

Back onto Trav.

Imperial Citizenship, in my view, gives you very very few rights, becuase
the base unit of Imperial Society is the planet, not the person. Planets
apply to join the Imperium, not people (hmmm ... could government type 7
include systems that are balkanised, but where each world in the system has
a single government ?).

As someone else pointed out, giving Imperial Citizens rights that Planetary
Citizens do not is a good recipie for friction between the Imperium and
it's member worlds. This is not to say the Imperium did not try this at
some point - we have two "revolutionary" periods in Imperial history - the
palace coup that removed Cleon the Mad (and IMO led to the breakup and sale
of Zhunatsu Industries) and the re-establishment of Imperial Authority by
Grand Admiral Arbatrella after the Civil Wars.

This allows periods where the Imperium did try to assert rights for certain
persons that other persons did not have, and periods where it said "Not our
problem. You guys sort it out, and remember ... No One Makes War In Space
But Us".

For my money, one of MoJ's roles is providing an honest broker role for
extraditions and so on for Imperial Crimes. Many to most worlds will have
extradition agreements, because they make life easier all around - some
worlds, who do not trust each other's legal systems (eg Australia and Saudi
Arabia - the Professor of Islamic Law at Uni of New South Wales said they
got the Gilford case wrong in Islamic Law for eg) may agree that extradited
persons are tried at a third world. Perhaps some megacorps would provide
legal services on a fee-for-service or retainer basis ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:52:18 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 
> >Local governments control their own systems, except for starports,
> >embassies and cases where they're not fit to do so (because of
> >interdictions, low Tech Levels, balkanization, etc).
> 
> Or where the Imperium feels bold enough to take control.  For their own
> survival, they cannot do it often, but I suspect there is something in
> there about being able to nationalize damn near anything, if war demanded it.
> 

True. The Imperium would, in the case of an emergency, invoke my
favorite rule: the guy with the biggest guns wins. They'd commandeer
anything they want to (including mercenary outfits, as my PC group
is going to find out when the 5FW starts up in a few months).

> >So it doesn't make sense to have Imperial citizens' rights take
> >precedence over locals' rights.
> 
> Do note, though, that the Warrant of Restoration explicitly prevents a
> member world from taking away a right or privilege.  To make this work, the
> rights and privileges better either be high profile and acceptable, or low
> profile.
> 

Pardon my ignorance. What is this Warrant? I'm not familiar with it.

> >I forsee a situation where the player group can say to
> >a local policemen "that silly law you locals have about not drinking in
> >public doesn't apply to us because we're Imperial citizens". A few of those
> >incidents would begin to infuriate the local populace.
> 
> This is why the Imperium would choose to not hear the case in most
> instances.  If you are drinking on a Moslem world, they may well just let
> you hang.  On the other hand, they may not, and I suspect there are very
> fine gradations.  I suspect also that your drinking might be punished far
> less by the Marines than the locals, but if you piss off the local police,
> and the Base Commander decides that it was inappropriate, he will likely
> deal with you harshly - not for drinking, but for damaging the relationship
> between the Imperium and a valued client state.
> 

I tend to take a cynical approach to this kind of thing. Basically,
then, as I see it, if you're rich, powerful or have some kind of
influence at the local Imperial establishment (base, embassy, whatever)
then you're likely to get off scot free. If you're a lonely grunt
who doesn't know anybody on the planet, you're in deep trouble.

> For what it is worth, I am using the policy that active duty military are
> always tried only by courts-martial, who may choose to punish them by
> turning them over to the local justice system for an egregious crime, but
> will usually restrict themselves to standard punishments for breaking the
> Military Code.  Part of that code does involve not damaging diplomatic
> relations.  Former military with an honorable discharge keep the same
> privilege, but its strength is reduced, as the JAG does not look at itself
> as your personal problem solver, but does not want valued crew being
> flattened by bizarre local customs.
> 

This seems reasonable. Again, I suspect that people with higher ranks
will have an easier time of it with local laws than grunts.

> Nobles also are a separate class.  These are the equivalents of the foreign
> diplomats, and with the military, are like Roman citizens.  There are
> roughly 1.2 nobles per million people in the Imperium, according to my
> current economic rules.  This makes the numbers small enough to manage, but
> big enough to be visible.  They stay an aristocracy, and they get
> appropriate privilege.
> 

Yes. I had forgotten how few nobles there really are, if you don't
include knights.

> >So where is the incentive for a world to voluntarily join the Imperium?
> >Sure they get great military protection but they have to give up all
> >those juicy taxes because everyone paying those taxes will immediately
> attempt
> >to become Imperial citizens.
> 
> Most of them might try, but most will fail.  Consider that nobles are one
> in a million, and most of those are nonhereditary knighthoods.  Further,
> the Imperium does need that many people in either the Fleet or the Marines.
>  As a result, they can usually get the best.
> 

This works only if the Imperium carefully restricts who can become
Imperial citizens. Another posting on this same thread discusses a
number of ways for becoming one. One of them is that any ex-military,
ex-scout, ex-merchant and anyone with Knight or higher social standing
is an Imperial citizen. If that system is adopted, then your reasoning
has problems because there are just too many citizens around.

On the other hand, if only nobles (Soc 12+) are citizens then there's
no problem.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:52:36 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Messing with stars

I recall that in Larry Niven's "Protector", the Protector Brennan killed
the crews of another two ramships using a rifle. He fired it into a
neutron star while they were in close orbit, and the resulting radiation
flare took out the bad guys. 
What do people think of Niven's physics here? 

=========================================================
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au ------ preferred address
mbarry@pcug.org.au              ------ alternative address

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:49:45 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-13 05:17:38 EST, you write:

<< It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll save

 it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size 
 (which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send it 
 once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)
 
 Let me know if you are interested!
 
 douglas
 
  >>
YES!

I want it (as an Excel for Windows 95 file).

Please send to 

FarFuture@AOL.com

Thanks,


Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:45:26
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Yet more piracy

D Summers wrote :

>Because the ship jumping in doesn't know where the enemy is and
>will be out of fuel to jump away.  The picket will be sitting
>there with fuel and will spot the enemy first (from their
>jump signature while he sits on low power with a low profile).

If the ship designer is a complete and total incompetant, yes. If the ship
designer of our theoretical scout ship is competant, and builds it with
jump-n capability and fuel for two jump-n, then no. Take a armed far
trader, add fuel bladders in the cargo bay. Does the job well. It's even
armed well enough to destroy unarmed picket ships.

>
>
>And if you have dispersed ships to them in small numbers, they
>can be picked off by even modest sized forces.
>

Yep. Small *disposable* ships, who cost a very very small fraction of the
cost of our ships of the line.

>> This is only true if you make three unwarranted assumptions:
>>That it is possible to surprise a ship by jumping into a system close to
>>it, that achieving surprise will allow you to destroy said ship, and that
>>any sane raider CO will jump in close enough to have his command wiped out
>>if a battleship squadron just happens to be passing by.
>
>Well, if the attacking force knows that you have disperesed
>their fleets, they know they can take a modest sized fleet
>and mop up.  As to being able destroy a ship before it
>jumps.  If you are moving your dispersed forces around,
>they will be arriving low on fuel and can be picked off.
>Regarding picking off the forces buy jumping in, it is
>cannon that you can jump in an defeat a local force.  If
>it wasn't true, then much of Traveller military
>history is wrong.  I'm not sure how they relate this
>to the ship combat rules.  Maybe they use the jump
>suppressors though I have a rule that you can't jump
>in battle because the energy releases disrupt the field.
>

By forcing the enemy to concentrate into modest-size forces, you are
reducing the number of forces the enemy can have, and thus the number of
systems they can interdict before reaction.

Every set of combat rules I've seen allows jumps in combat. The only way to
threaten a fleet is to catch it against a coastline (impossible in space)
or low on fuel (difficult if they are competant) or by threatening
something they cannot afford to lose (bingo).

>An armed scout doesn't have much chance of getting through either.

Depends on the size of the interdicting force. A single type-s scout with a
pulse laser will toast an out-of-fuel unarmed picket. On the other hand, a
ship with armement absolutely insufficient to stand in line of battle (eg
three triple laser turrets) will fight it's way through such a minimal
interdiction force.

>This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
>a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
>system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
>multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.
>
>>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>>sufficient.
>
>Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.
>

"This is the starport security officer speaking. Today's convoy to the Jump
Point leaves at 1400 hours precisely. Your escort to the 100 diameter limit
is the Frigate Indefagtible. Gunnery officers are reminded to keep their
turrets pointed forward at all times during the trip."

"This is starport to unidentified vessel. Regulations require you to either
immediatly jump out, or file a valid flight path with us to an outworld.
Prepare for inspection by the Frigate Indestructable".

"This is starport audit team to repair dock alpha. When the hell is the
Frigate Unmaintainable going to be out of the dock ? It's been averaging
four months per year annual maintainence ..."
 
>>We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
>>*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
>>sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
>>your movements would travel.
>
>It depends on how far you are talking.  Sure you might have
>to cover 12 or 18 parsecs in.  But Zhodani ships aren't
>going to launch a sneak attack on Capital.
>

Funny, I've always thought that the 12-18 parsec fringe of Imperial space
would be exactly where pirates would operate, becasue it would allow flight
to outside Imperial borders to sell cargoes and stolen ships at freeports.
But maybe it's just me, and the fact I can think of zero zilch zip cases of
piracy (as opposed to the sort of muggings on the high seas the Dayaks et
al do these days) that do not include the co-operation of a friendly State.
And yes, I know the dark rumours concerning Singapore and ships that
suddenly develop new registrations in mid-voyage.

>>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?
>
>They don't attack anyone.

Good. So if we have enough random patrols (preferably so the chance of
running into a ship with whom you dont want to tangle i.e. an armed one is
100%), then pirates go out of buisiness as pirates. Case closed.

While we are about it, when the pirate in unsure whether there are military
patrol ships about (Far Traders with MilSpec crews and nuke det laser
missiles make plenty good patrol ships in my book. And, hell, a leased
Elisabeth class Frontier Trader is perfect for those 6 month patrols at
uninhabited worlds - it's designed for long range patrols sans support
dammit, and the 2.1 gigajoule laser will mean it is a very serious pirate
that goes to play with her), what transponder signal does it use ?

Finally, the issue of permanently basing military ships in systems without
naval bases. In Traveller, a ship needs annual maintainence. Therefore, you
can stay on patrol for maybe 7 months a year, assuming a 2 month trip each
way to the repair point and a month in dry dock. These are not bleeding
edge technologies that malfunction soon as looked at, and require 50 hours
maintainence per flying hour ... Traveller starships are rugged,
well-understood mature technologies.

Crew get shore leave on a lump of rock with an inflatable dome (you get to
stretch your legs at least ... look at what sailors on "shore leave" at
Scapa Flow had to deal with), and accept this as a known condition of service.

>
>Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:02 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
>>It makes sense to spend the extra few megacreds per vessel to give the
>>information gathering wessels a few piddling weapons.
>
>Well, you might take the cannon ship for this purposes, and
>arm it.  But I don't see one or two armed scout doing much
>to keep piracry from a system.

They increase the minimal armament of a pirate until (a) a pirate ship
becomes easily disinguishable from a merchant and (b) increases the number
of cargoes a pirate must capture to pay for the weapons. Further, if the
pirate does tangle with one of these pissy little escorts, then the pirate
is going to have battle damage bills to pay. And if they dont want a IN
Report of Combat Damage Repair (Civilian Vessel) report filed, then it is
going to cost extra. A lot extra.

>
>
>Well, just for the record, I diagree that piracy is impossible,
>but I don't have an opinion on the question of why a pirate
>wouldn't just sell the ship.  (I mentioned this when I responded
>to your first posts decades (centuries? :-) ago, but you may
>not recollect).  I just don't think the Imperium can wipe out
>piracy without cost.  I do have doubts that piracy alone would be
>sufficient to validate ship ownership (though I'm not sure on
>that.  Maybe it would work for Vargr corsairs who have someplace
>to which they can retreat to avoid the kind of heat that consistent
>losses of ships, to justify the cost of ship ownership, and lives
>might generate).  I also might see pirate keeping the ship because
>
>a) They are actually making money from it with legit and
>other illegit activities (aka smuggling).

The only smuggling the Imperium cares about is (a) nukes and (b) slaves.

>b) They aren't making money and are desperate to keep it
>because "business if just about to turn arond" or the
>don't want to admit failure.

Bullshit. Just isnt going to happen. The *entire* crew needs to be on-side,
and needs to understand that piracy is an option before signing up. Pirates
turned trader a lot more often than traders turned pirate ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:28:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Pirate ships (shortish!; & not philosophy...)

Hello,
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:05:02 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy unstoppable?
....
>>, or that if a
>>600 Dt ship should somehow be acquired for regular pirate operations
>>without attracting notice that it would be easily capable of taking
>>on a 400 Dt warship.
>
>I don't agree it would stand out as much.  Much bigger ships

  I'm referring to the fact of it's being acquired (esp. if illegally)
being noticed? Or is this the result of raising a joint-stock company?

....
>>  The idea of any reasonably sized trader-pirate taking on a 1000-odd
>>ton warship of similar or higher techs is ludicrous under High Guard.
>
>Well, I do think that 1000-1500 tons is in the right range.

  Is that for the merchant-pirate or the "patrol vessel"?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:27:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (not ST...)

>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:34:48 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2088
....
>piracy without cost.  I do have doubts that piracy alone would be
>sufficient to validate ship ownership (though I'm not sure on

Hello,
  Canonically the case (before 1116), and pretty much conclusively
proved here. One of the books refers to the pre-War Navy as "over-
sized"; this is a good extension of your comments on the behaviour
of organizations - why would the Navy let its share of the budget
decrease, even as actual mission requirements dropped?

>that.  Maybe it would work for Vargr corsairs who have someplace
>to which they can retreat to avoid the kind of heat that consistent
>losses of ships, to justify the cost of ship ownership, and lives

  That works for me too, as I recall that the Vargr corsairs often
took ships if possible, or looted installations, etc.

>might generate).  I also might see pirate keeping the ship because
>
>a) They are actually making money from it with legit and
>other illegit activities (aka smuggling).

  I'll buy that, but I have to point out that smuggling revenue isn't
at all likely to be ship-size dependent, so it will proportionately
provide more support to a smaller ship (assumes "small packages",
rather than smuggling holds full of bulk goods).

>b) They aren't making money and are desperate to keep it
>because "business if just about to turn arond" or the
>don't want to admit failure.

  Hmm, followed by skipping, more crime, possibly desperate enough
to try an unsafe target...  ...but still believable, and possibly
successful either in going legit again or getting filthy rich.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:10:47 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

> It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll
save
> it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size 
> (which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send it

> once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)
 
> Let me know if you are interested!

> douglas

Can I have a copy of it? Pretty please with Sharurshid on top?

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:56:19 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: STUDS

	Sorry about the cheesy acronym.  I couldn't resist.  Please accept
this as atonement for the massive low-Traveller content posts I've been
churning out over the past few days.

	What it is is a simple damage resolution system that handles hit
location and various effects of getting shot, stabbed, plasma blasted,
bludgeoned, lased, mesoned, and shot some more.

	I haven't worked hand-to-hand in yet; the idea _just_ occurred to
me now.  Also, please bear in mind that it is a draft and I would more than
welcome criticism and input of any sort.


                 Simple Traveller Universal Damage System (STUDS)

1) Roll to hit.  If to hit roll succeeds, roll 2d6 and consult the
following chart:

Roll   Anatomy     Damage X   1st Stats affected   Effect  Bleed*
Amputate**

2      hand/wrist  0.5***     Dex                  Drop	   High      Medium
3      foot/ankle  0.5***     Dex                  Fall    High      Medium
4      leg         1          Dex/Str              Fall    Medium    High=DD
5      arm         1          Dex/Str              Drop    High      High=DD
6-7    lower torso 1          End/Str              Ref     Medium    N/A
8-10   chest       2          End/Str              Fall    Medium    N/A
11     head/neck   2          End/Str              Ref     Medium    N/A
12     braincase   3          Int (permanently)    Fall    Medium    High=DD=
=DD

* Cutting blade attacks produce this on one damage severity lower (i.e.
Medium instead of High).  Treat stabbing blade attacks as per table.
** Only possible if weapon does 3d6 or higher (2d6 for cutting blade
weapons), always produces Serious Bleeding unless energy weapons involved.
*** Only for slugthrowers; shotguns, plasma/fusion guns, lasers, acid
throwers, and lovebird casters do 1X damage.
=DD Only possible if weapon does 4d6 of damage or higher.
=DD=DD Shotguns and energy weapons produce this effect on Medium or higher
damage rolls.  Always fatal.


2) Roll damage and multiply the result; apply damage to stats as indicated,
apply effects, and veryify whether amputation or serious bleeding occurs.


3) Specific locations can be targeted at increased difficulty as per rule
system being used (T4, MT, KB v.2, etc).  If to hit roll succeeds, roll
damage, and multiply damage, produce effects and bleeding for that location
as per the table.


4) Effects explained:

Drop: Hand facing shooter is hit and anything carried in it is dropped and
damaged at ref's discretion.  If both hands in line of fire, roll 1d6; 1-3
left hand is hit, 4-6 right hand is hit.

=46all: Character falls.  Foot facing shooter is hit.  If both feet in line
of fire, roll as above

Ref: Obvious.


5) Bleed:

	Serious bleeding rolls are made depending on the location and
gravity of damage.  Blunt trauma weapons (Thud guns, clubs, dismembered
arms and legs, and so forth) do not produce this effect.

High: 	damage is in the top 33% of all possible damage rolls (i.e. 5 or 6
	on1d65, 8-12 on 2d6, 12-18 on 3d6, etc).
Medium: damage is the top 66% of all possible damage rolls (i.e. 3-6 on a
	1d6, 6-12 on 2d6, 9-18 on 3d6, etc).

Roll 4d6, multiply by 10, divide by the damage multiplier: this is the
number of seconds it takes for one point of health to bleed away.  Fatal
bleeding occurs at Ref's discretion.  For bladed weapons only multiply 4d6
by 5.


6) Amputate:

	The hit blows off or up the affected portion of anatomy in a
spectacular, grisly manner reminiscent of Tarentino or Verhoeven at their
worst.  Always produces Serious Bleeding unless energy weapons are involved.


	And that's it.  Comments?



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2096
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2097



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Politics of ST...
Hi ho...
Re: Playing The Lottery
Interesting news item
ST? 
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
TNE-RCES list
Brian Blessed as Norris
Re: Imperial Citizenship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:40:30 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>> 	Which reminds me of this idea my classmates and I cooked up one
>> evening over a few too many beers...  Just build a very large cinderblock
>> warehouse way hellandgone up on Baffin Island.  Provide it with basic
>> heating.  Put in basic food preparation facilities, provide the inmates
>> with basic indoor clothing, and install exercise bicycles in case they get
>> bored or the heating isn't warm enough for them.  Do not put any bars on
>> the windows or locks on the doors.
>>
>> 	Put up polar bear feeding stations in a 60-kilometer radius around
>> the building.  Move them weekly.
>
>Or maybe just a big wall around New York City...;-)


	Naw.  The weather in NYC is way too clement.

	OBTRAV: Maybe the 3I has this prison planet that doubles as a
dump...  all the worst criminal scum of the universe, and much garbage, are
dropped into orbit, and so you have gangs of criminals roving the great
drifts of trash scavenging things...  The roleplaying ptoential would be
enormous if you didn't mind playing sociopathic garbage-picking scum.

<ducks, runs like HoL>

;)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:36:08 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Hi ho...

	We ought to think about taking this offlist, since the thread's
Trav content is non-existent...  So this'll be my last onlist posting on
this thread.


Leonard Erickson wrote:

[my stuff snipped]
>
>Oh? I'm curious. *Where* did you see legal proceedings *other* than
>military courts? The military courts ran pretty much the way military
>courts do now.
>
>But from various references, *I* didn't get the impression that civil
>law was all that different than what we are used to. The *punishments*
>tended to be somewhat different.


	Hm.  Based on any number of reads during high school, and a quick
re-read two weeks ago to freshen up for the movie (have you seen it yet,
BTW), I got the impression that the criminal courts tended to provide the
sort of rough&ready on the spot justice RAH seemed to favour.  This,
however, could just be spillover impressions from his other books.
However, given the TF justice system's origins in what were basically lynch
mobs, or vigilantes if you prefer, I'd be surprised if it offered the same
procedural and substantive protections that we'd find acceptable (or that
_I'd_ find acceptable :>).

[my stuff snipped]
>> with.  It's easy to design a legal system that presents the appearance of
>> due process but whose substantive law is sufficient to have the accused
>> practically condemned before he steps into the courthouse.
>
>And where is ther an example of this in the book?


	As I mentioned above, it's a pretty easy inference.  I'd be
surprised if Heinlein, who advocated on-the-spot capital punishment by
vacuum exposure without benefit of appeal for non-aggravated sexual assault
in another novel, would have had the TF justice system provide the same
kind of protection for the accused.  The corporal punishment thing
certainly isn't typical of _modern_ Western justice systems, and IMHO is
more evidence for a less-than-formal justice system in keeping with
Heinlein's leanings.

	However, it's just an inference (albeit a pretty safe one, IMHO).
In the absence of any hard evidence either way, we could hammer away at
this one for months and just go around in circles...


>
>>         Remember that the justice system in ST grew out of vigilante
>> justice imposed by mobs of returned veterans lacking duly constituted legal
>> authority, and that it operates in a system where civil rights are held in
>> low regard... viz. Col. Dubois's speech about the drowning man in the
>> Pacific Ocean.
>
>Sorry, that was intended rather differently than you seem to have read it.


	Hang on.  I'll go read that bit.  Right back.

	I'm back.  See below.


[snip]
>> thief and press charges and sue him for damages.  Rights are social
>> protection; for protection against twisters I build a storm cellar.
>> Heinlein had Dubois set up a straw man.
>
>And in doing so, show that rights *are* a social phenomenon. That's
>*why* he was against calling them "inalienable". Because since they
>only exist by benefit of society's "whims", they *can* be talen away
>by society.
>
>>         Of course, being social and legal constructs, unless you're a
>> natural law theorist, rights don't exist outside a given legal system.
>> Being a positivist, I think that human rights are entirely legal creations,
>> brought into existence by the various Bills, Declarations, and Charters
>> that frame them.  I do not believe in any natural law underpinning human
>> law that gives rights some nebulous existence outside the frameworks of the
>> legal systems in which they operate.
>
>Again, that was the whole *point* of Col. DuBois' lecture. Rights
>*don't* exist in a vacuum. If you want "rights" thenm you'd better be
>prepared to make sure that your society grants them.
>
>So contary to what you got out of it, I think they held rights in
>*high* esteem. But they also recognized that they are *not* some sort
>of magical thing granted by some god.
>


	Actually, on that one, I think you're mistaken.  My read of it
indicates that Dubois, after going through the above-snipped critique of
rights, uses it to lead into his conclusions about "juvenile delinquents":
that they glorified their rights, and forgot about their duties, and that
this was what led to the downfall of the U.S.

	It's true that you can infer a positivist position on rights from
that speech.  Still, jumping from that to a position that they held rights
(and here I mean, specifically, the basic freedoms that we take for granted
and the various political and legal rights that safeguard them) in high
regard, is a bit of a leap.  Dubois dismisses the inalienable human rights
set out in your Bill of Rights in such a way that we can infer that either
Heinlein speaking through Dubois took a positivist point of view, or that
Heinlein speaking through Dubois was mistaken about the nature of rights in
a pretty basic way, or that Heinlein just deliberately had Dubois make a
straw man argument as I described.

	Getting to them holding rights in high esteem from there is
difficult.  Sure, you can read it favourably, but given that ST is far more
about the duty side of the rights coin, and that the TF is basically a
model of a society that puts more emphasis on duty, I think that it's a
stretch.  And since it is a fictional society, described in a novel, and we
never really find out one way or the other, this is another one that we
could argue until we were both sitting at the bottom of a very deep hole
where a horse used to be :).

	Bummer that RAH is dead.  It'd be nice to get his input.  That way
we could see whether your optimistic reading or my pessimistic reading was
closer to what he visualized.


>>         Unfortunately, we don't know whether the Terran Federation has a
>> Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  However, given Col. Dubois' speech on
>> rights, I suspect that they are not held in high regard.
>
>And I suspect, based on the same speech, that they *are*. But that
>since they are recognized as a social artifact, they are considered to
>*follow* as a consequence of the *responsibilities* of the individual
>towards other individuals. That is, rather than thinking of "freedom of
>speech" as a right, they'd think of the *responsibility of not
>"censoring" other people's views.


	Flip side of the same coin.  Seems that we both have the same take
on the relationship between rights and duties.


>
>This shift of viewpoint would (IMNSHO) prevent a lot of the situations
>we see where folks are claiming "rights", but are actually trying to
>*deny* rights to others.


	Such as...?  Basically, I don't know whether shifting to a more
duty-oriented paradigm would do much to affect basic human selfishness...
and an _over_emphasis on duty would lead to the same sort of situation;
"You're not respecting your duty not to infringe on my rights!!".


>
>> As well (and bear
>> in mind that the US is AFAIK the only western democracy still to use the
>> death penalty), the TF justice system's use of capital punishment is not a
>> telling point in its favour; it shows a great deal of disregard for _the_
>> fundamental human right.
>
>And note the sort of crimes it's reserved for. Ones where it's quite
>clear that the criminal has no regard for the lives of others. Also, I
>got the impression that an execution a *year* would be considered a
>*high* rate for a "state" sized area.


	Again, no hard data in the book.  However, whether this ideal state
of low crime rates would automatically follow from the sort of political
system that RAH has the TF model is another question entirely...


>
>>         So either Heinlein was fundamentally ignorant of what rights were
>> (which I have a hard time believing), or he was setting up a vision of
>> rights that a freshman philosophy student could blow clean out of the
>> water.  I think that he was doing the latter, in the expectation that the
>> more discerning reader would twig to what he was doing.
>
>Or, as I point out, you missed the whole point. He was arguing for a
>view much like yours, but by forcing you to throw out the "natural law"
>view.
>
>BTW, I disagree with you about the "natural law" bit to some extent.
>I think that "metalaw" is working towards a "non-arbitrary" set of
>rules/rights. In fact, I may update my old file on the subjject and
>post it, as it'd be a good basis for Imperial law, especially the parts
>that deal with non-humans (as that's what it started out as.... an
>attempt to deduce rules that could be applied equally to humans and
>aliens).


	Depends on what you mean by "metalaw".  I take a position based
fairly heavily on the work of Hans Gregor Kelsen, a Danish (?) legal
philosopher.  In a nutshell, he thought that a given society's "grundnorm",
or basic norm, which I spin to mean a given culture's core set of values,
provides the basis for their legal system; their law (and conception of
rights) is based on this, and not some fuzzy "natural" law floating around
the noosphere.  Is this what you're driving at?

	If you want to find out more, scope out Feinberg and Gross's
_Philosophy of Law_.  It's basically a collection of high points in legal
philosophy, and they do a pretty good job on Kelsen, as well as just about
everybody else important in the field...  Some of it is incredibly dense,
impenetrable, abstruse, and boring, but some of it is really worth a read.


[snip]
>
>Excuse me. You are apparently under the impression that this country is
>a democracy. It is turning into one, but it most definitely was *not*
>set up as one. True democracies have a *worse* record than autocracies!
>


	You mean the US _isn't_ a democracy?  Ye gods :).


[snip]
>>
>>         Ye gods!  I am appalled.  Frankly, RAH couldn't have thought that
>> one through.  What about the case of the ditzy, debauched, no-good lush
>> who's never worked a day in his life who inherits a vast estate from his
>> father?  How is he more deserving than a skilled, hard-working tradesman
>> who unfortunately doesn't own enough land to qualify for the franchise?
>
>If the lazy no good doesn't learn responsibility, how long will it be
>before some con man takes that estate away from him?


	Well, if dad was smart and had his lawyers draft up a really,
really killer trust, never.  However, this brings up the whole question of
merit in a capitalist free market economy.  The consequences of lack of
economic merit (smarts, savvy, drive, ruthless ambition, a bloodyminded
lack of compassion for the lives you crush as you <slap> sorry; got a
little carried away :>)...  Basically, the lazy no good's no good laziness
is an economic failing (albeit with personal dimensions too).  He's getting
his economic deserts (unless we're talking out-and-out fraud here) as he's
not been a productive member of society nor managed his assets wisely.

	Thing is is that regardless, I don't think that economic clout
should have any impact on a person's right to have a say in his society's
government.  YMMV, of course.


>
>And I'm not (and i don't think Heinlein was either) claiming that it
>was perfect. Just that it was an attempt at eliminating some of the
>irresponsible from the voter pool while not eliminating too many
>responsible types.


	Yup.  Agreed as to what he was doing.  I just think that removing
someone's right to vote because they don't meet my high moral standards
would be a grave dereliction of my duty :).


>
>> Didn't he realize that depriving the poor of political clout (even if it's
>> purely symbolic) is what's led to every single major revolution that I can
>> think of?
>
>Remember, thanks to the secxond amendment (when it was honored) any
>voters stupid enough to do something that really pissed off the
>non-voters *would* wind up on the short end of a revolution.


	Hm.  Although our current separatist provincial government here in
Quebec has me seriously reconsidering my low opinion of that particular
justification of the right to bear arms, I still think that in a properly
constituted, well-running democracy the people can ditch a bozo government
at the ballot box...

	...and that therefore as citizens we've got a duty to participate
in the political process, by voting, by participating in public debate, in
party activism, in volunteering to serve at polls, that sort of thing.  And
it's fun, too :).  But I'm starting to wander off-topic here...


>
>And it also helps to remember that it *used* to be the case that the
>"rich" and well off took care of the poor (at least the responsible
>ones did) rather than filtering the aid thru a government bureaucracy.


	Well, I'd have to disagree.  What we call poverty in North America
today is nowhere _near_ what passed for poverty a century ago, let alone
what passes for poverty in the Third World.  And IMHO this improvement is
due in part to the Welfare State... but that's another can of non-Traveller
worms :).


[bit on service requirement to qualify for franchise snipped]
>
>No, it's based on whether or not you are willing to put forth some
>effort for society, with *no* benefit other than the vote. What Rico,
>Sr did benefited society, but only as a *side effect* of benefitting
>himself. To get the vote you have to *reverse* the relationship. Do
>something that (in theory anyway) benefits society and only
>incidentally benefits you.
>
>It could be argued that the test selects for *altruism*.


	I understood the rationale; I just didn't buy it.  The benefit is
still there, and undeniable, and IMHO the argument for the requirement
isn't terribly rational...  Why should the fact that Rico Sr. derived a
great deal of personal benefit from his business have any bearing on his
right to vote?


[snip]

>I think his purpose was much simpler. He proposed a *very* alternate
>system and shook up a lot of preconceptions. I don't think he thought
>the society would work either. But he *was* pointing out things like
>the idea that a society can, and pergaps *should* consider not handing
>out the vote to every warm body over a certain age.


	Yup.  He entirely failed to convince me :).


[snip]
>BTW, for what it's worth, if *I* was going to redesign society, given
>the way Heinlein (I Starship Troopers, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and
>eve Stranger in a Strange Land) made me think things over, I'd consider
>two changes. One is "easy", the other is hard, but eminently worth
>doing if an *objective* test could be found.
>
>1. Regardless of whether you are native or immigrant, you have to take
>   the *same* citizenship test. It *really* bugs me when the majority
>   of voters aren't familiar with the Bill of Rights, much less have a
>   grasp of the basic ideas in the constitution (worst case was the folks
>   who were screaming when the courts found a initiative to be
>   unconstitutional. They didn't know that one of the main *purposes*
>   of the Constitution is to say that there are things that government
>   may *not* do!)
>
>2. Some sort of "maturity" test. This needs to be *objective*. If you
>   can't pass it, I don't care *how* old you are. You don't drive, you
>   don't vote, etc. And if you pass it, I don't care if you are a
>   bright, well read 8-year old.
>
>But then, like Heinlein, I'm frequently accused of being an elitist.
>And it's true. I *do* believe that some people are better than others.


	Interestingly enough, I've been discussing the idea of limitations
to the franchise with one of my classmates (guy named Phil) for years.  He
tends to be somewhat to the right of Ghenghis Khan even by U.S. Republican
standards on many issues.  On capital punishment, he thinks that we ought
to buy Florida's old electric chair ("Old Sparky") precisely _because_ it's
defective and causes convicts' heads to catch fire during executions...


	We've come up with some interesting ones...  Phil tends to favour
giving every person one vote for every thousand dollars of personal income
taxes they pay (which would really make for some interesting decisions come
tax time!).  I'd suggested making it conditional on taking and passing high
school courses in Canadian history, general political science, introductory
economics, and introductory moral philosophy.  It's a fun question... the
thing is that as of yet I haven't run into any idea compelling enough to
make me change my mind about universal adult franchise.



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 21:18:52 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Playing The Lottery

On 1997-11-13 14:02, Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> wrote the 
following:

>  I remeber reading a really nifty article about a society that didn't have
>taxes.
>They had lot's of lotteries instead.  Buying tickets daily was a sign of
>good citizenship.  Folks wore their tickets to show their support.  If you
>didn't have several upto date tickets around your neck, you wouldn't get
>very far in trying to get anything done.

Reminds me of a _Sliders_ episode. In that society, if you were ever 
short on cash, you just played the "lottery". You went to a machine, and 
took out as much cash as you wanted. The more you played, (the more money 
you took) the better your chances of "winning".

Problem is, the lottery was a method of population control. Winning the 
lottery meant giving your life to the greater good of society.

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:50:23 -0600
From: rde@ican.net (R.D. Elliott)
Subject: Interesting news item

   
   Just spotted this on sci.space.news...  proto-Belters!

> 
> NEAR EARTH ASTEROID PROSPECTOR ANNOUNCEMENT OF OPPORTUNITY RELEASED
> 
> November 11, 1997, Steamboat Springs, CO -For the first time in the
> history of space exploration, a private company is offering the scientific
> community, governments and companies a ride aboard a spacecraft for their
> experiments or instruments at insured, published, fixed prices. 
> 
> SpaceDev, (www.SpaceDev.Com) the world's first commercial space
> exploration company, intends to launch the first private spacecraft to
> land on a near earth asteroid for the purpose of collecting scientific
> data and to stake a claim to establish private property rights in space. 
> 
> The spacecraft, Near Earth Asteroid Prospector (NEAP), first in a series
> of SpaceDev Space Prospectors, will carry three of its own instruments to
> analyze its asteroids size, and determine its composition and value. In
> addition to these, space is available for up to seven additional
> experiments or instruments of which four are canisters for instruments or
> experiments to be deployed into sun orbit during the mission or to the
> surface of the SpaceDev asteroid. On the first mission, one canister will
> contain the NEAP alpha proton X-ray spectrometer which will be used to
> determine the elemental composition of the asteroid surface, leaving three
> canisters available to carry customer experiments or nano-rovers.
> 
> "Until today, scientists, universities, companies and governments have had
> one avenue to space-the government. NEAP is the new spacecraft on the
> launchpad, and its science costs only one-fourth what a recent government
> mission costs," said James W. Benson, Chairman, SpaceDev.
> 
> "This unique opportunity to use a private spacecraft offers these
> customers inexpensive access to space on short notice and also offers
> quick turn around on experiment results-results in approximately half the
> time of current missions. Furthermore, the mission represents minimal risk
> to the customer, because customer's instruments are fully insured against
> launch failure," said Benson.
> 
> NEAP intends to launch between mid 1999 and mid 2000, with flight time
> estimated at between nine and fifteen months. Potential target asteroids
> include 1993 BX3 and 1996 FO3. 
> 
> Construction and testing of NEAP will begin during the first quarter of
> 1998 and will take approximately 18 months to complete. SpaceDev is a
> public company (OTC:PSDM) specializing in private space missions and
> consulting.
> 
> Full details of the Announcement of Opportunity are available on the
> SpaceDev website:
> 
> http://spacedev.com/SpaceDev/PriceLst.html


Please remove the spamblock from my address when responding.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:54:18 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: ST? 

From all the discussion going on, it seems to me as if ST (Star Trek) has
become a lot more interesting and coherent in this version. I like the
idea of having the aliens as insects instead of, IIRC, just humans with
vaguely amusing genitalia-shapes on their faces. 

=========================================================
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au ------ preferred address
mbarry@pcug.org.au              ------ alternative address

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:05:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:47:15 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Escorts
>
>Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:14:55 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>>Well, it has already been questioned, and argued about, if
>>>those patrols are a) all suited to antipiracy work and
>>>b) numerous enough to even come close to stopping piracy
>>>c) don't also already have tasks the antipiracy patrols
>>>would take them away from.
....
>Well, look back at the posts about whether pickets
>need to be armed at all.  They just need to jump away
>with news.  As to escort, the reason you convoy
....

  To paraphrase, we'll have to agree to disagree about whether the
3I would insist on building unarmed pickets. If they are going to
be unarmed anyways, they're also going to be very small and very
cheap, leaving more resources for real patrol/war ships.

....
>can rushed up right away.  Other warships have to be ready to
>carry immediate news of the fighting between fleets.  If
>you wait weeks to months to collect ships together while
>the enemy takes ground, cuts off and eliminates fleets,etc.
>you are in real trouble.

  Fleet Couriers would handle deployment orders. If escorts park
in massed hordes awaiting war, what do they do while the cargo
tonnage they're to escort is gathered, or does the IN maintain a
sufficient load-capacity of its own parked with the escorts?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:04:20 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:20:05 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment
>
>[I am going out of town and my not be able to reply to
>some posts, depending on mail...]
>Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:44:16 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
....
>That mean that dispersing the forces that are raised and
>based at the subsector level _is_ a reduction in readyness.
>I also think that the logistics of all this is going to
>be a big distraction in the crucial early days of the war...

Hello,
  FWIW, IN doctrine is that of the deep defense - no surprise attack
can reach the reserves that will settle the war. Forces from the first
two or three sub-sectors will await the flood of reinforcements from
the sectors behind (FFW). In the case of the Marches, that's Deneb
and Corridor, with their (canonically) large reserves of Imperial Fleets.

....
>(and we haven't gotten to how you are supporting all these
>ships in systems without any bases)

  Actually we have. I agreed with your thesis that SDB's would not
be present (in peacetime) in systems unable to manufacture them.
IIRC, you were in another discussion where a x3 or x4 multiplier
was accepted for the number of ships total needed to keep a single
patrol vessel in a given system, on average. These patrolling starships
now have a maximum cruising range of in-system?

....
>No, I'm saying _some_ people wouldn't.  Others will be in the
>job of collecting particularly valuable, sensitive, etc. goods
>or are designated for transporation of war goods.  As to them
>being "indiffernt warships", if you have a convoy with, say,
>10 merchants for each naval vessel the "indiferent" ability
>they have can well make a difference in a battle.

  Not against a commerce raiding cruiser, which would presumably
be the core of a raider squadron.

>>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?
>
>So he doesn't attack those ships.

  Umm, the authorities can't tell that a ship has upgraded arms
and computer, but a pirate _can_ tell? Neat.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:18:38 -0500 (EST)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: TNE-RCES list

Sorry to interject into the midst of our passionate ST debate, but does
anyone know what's up with the TNE-RCES list and how does one join?

Also, what's going on with Sword of the Knight Publications and Chronicle
#13?

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:19:43 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Brian Blessed as Norris

> As far as Brian Blessed for the role goes -- I do know who he is, and like
> his work fine, but I can _only_ see him as the roaring Cossack/Viking type
> - -- not the genteel, charismatic aristocrat.

You obviously have missed him as Auustus in _I, Claudius_. When he shaves, he
can be quite genteel.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:47:25 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

[Two replies with one post here, folks]

Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> wrote:
>The trouble with this [Roman-like] model is that it contradicts the 
>Imperium's hands-off policy towards local government. 

>I forsee a situation where the player group can say to a local policemen 
>"that silly law you locals have about not drinking in public doesn't apply 
>to us because we're Imperial citizens".

No.  Or more precisely, they can try it, but they'd be usually be stupid to
do so.  For most minor infractions, the punishments are minor (spend the
night in the drunk tank, and pay your Cr 50 fine in the morning).  If you
try to invoke Imperial citizenship, you'll probably still spend the night
in the drunk tank, but in the morning when you go infront of the judge,
the Imperial Consul will be there.  She'll get you off the hook for the
drinking in public charge ... but will probably fine you a kilocredit or
more for damaging relations with a member world and/or conduct unbecoming
an Imperial Citizen, AND boot you accross the extraterritoriality line at
the starport, and tell you not to show your face around "her" planet for
a year or so.

In addition to all of that, member worlds DO have the right to banish an
Imperial Citizen that they find particularly noxious.  This is the rough
equivalent of declaring a diplomat "persona non grata", and usually
causes a bit of a diplomatic flap any time it's used.

Imperial citizenship is intended for circumstances where the local laws 
have extreme penalties for minor offenses, difficult to comply with, or 
intended to discriminate against offworlders.  The Imperial Justice takes
precedence, so that Imperial Citizens can do their business in relative
safety despite bizarre local customs.  

Some worlds, particularly with totalitarian governments, may have a shoot
first and ask questions later policy.  In these cases, Imperial Citizenship
probably won't help, unless you can talk fast before they shoot.  A
diplomatic 
incident after you're dead doesn't help you dodge the bullet.  Worlds 
where it truly is difficult or dangerous for offworlders to get anything done 
are usually posted as Amber zones.

>Sure they get great military protection but they have to give up all
>those juicy taxes because everyone paying those taxes will immediately 
>attempt to become Imperial citizens.

And about 98+% of them will be turned down by the Imperium.  To become a
citizen, you basically have to do or be someone who will contribute to
the Imperium.  Just because you want to avoid paying planetary taxes isn't
a good enough reason.

>> - Those who have recieved an honorable discharge after at least one full
>>   term of service in the Imperial Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, or Imperial
>>   Bureaucracy.
>
>I'd add Flyers, Sailors and Diplomats. I'm not sure about Doctors.

Flyers and Sailors in my campaigns are members of the COACC (Close-Orbit and 
Aerospace Control Command) forces of a member world - these folks serve in the
military of a local world (usually their homeworld), and NOT the Imperial
military.

Diplomats, if in Imperial service, would count for citizenship.  However,
there are a large number of diplomats who represent their local world to
other worlds, who would not be in Imperial service.

In the CT rules, in some services (Book 5, for example), you can tell from
the character generation rules if your character is in the Imperial
service.  

>However, in the MT/CT rules (the only ones I'm familiar with) you
>can't get a dishonourable discharge. 

For the basic CT/MT generation, we'd assumed that characters who
were drafted were NOT in Imperial service; only volunteers that made an
enlistment throw were in Imperial service.

We always used variant mustering-out rules; in particular, a failed
survival throw indicated some type of involuntary discharge.  We had a
table to throw on (from the Paranoia Press _Scouts and Assasins_ book), 
but it was generally either medical or dishonorable.  Ending a term 
and failing the re-enlistment throw was 'honorable', as was resigning 
(ending a term and deciding not to re-enlist).

>So, basically, once you're in one of those careers, you're a citizen.

The idea of citizenship was to make it something worthwhile, and something
that not every PC in the group would have.

>I wouldn't use this one. The MT Merchant career is totally in the
>private sector and thus wouldn't qualify.

In my own little variant of the Imperium, in order to foster insterstellar
commerce, the Imperium ran the Merchant Service Academy.  Academy
graduates recieved a commission as an Ensign in the Imperial Navy Reserve
(and therefore recieved citizenship).  In the case of a war or other
emergency, Naval Reserve officers are subject to activation.

This was also from Paranoia Press: _Merchants and Merchadise_.

>> - Limited-Liability Imperial Corporations.
>Yes, for tax reasons. 

No, for trade and commerce reasons.  Remember, the guiding principle is not
what the Imperium can do for the corporation, but rather what the corporation
can do for the Imperium.  The LIC is an Imperium-wide incorporation, and
generally LICs are the companies that are going to engage in wide-scale
business activities that will benefit the Imperium as a whole.

Companies that don't apply for (or who don't qualify for) LIC status aren't
(usually) going to be doing anything that will benefit the Imperium as a
whole (or even a large part of it.

>Although, why restrict it to limited liability corporations?

The other reason is to avoid eroding the member worlds' tax base, and
to avoid meddling overmuch in the internal affairs of those worlds.  While
it's certainly an Imperial matter how a megacorporation (or even a
sector-wide or subsector-wide corporation) is governed and taxes.  It's not
a matter of Imperial concern how the corner grocery market is governed, no
matter how much the proprietor would like to avoid paying sales tax, income
tax, property tax, inventory tax, and so on.

>Why not say that any corporation qualifies which is headquartered in the 
>Imperium and has Imperial citizens as a majority of its controlling officers?

These are probably requirements for a LIC (and giving a large block of stock
to the Imperial family doesn't hurt, either).

>> - Other individuals who have applied for and been granted citizenship
>
>This would require approval at a high level, like Duke or better.

Right.  Probably the decision would be made at a lower level (a set of
guidelines and a standing committee to review applications), but would
require the Duke's say-so before citizenship could be granted.


                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2097
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2098



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Battlefield Meson Guns
Re: WOW
Re: Yet more piracy
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2097
Re:Messing with Stars
Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Traveller movie
Looking for.
Compiled Sector Data on the web
Re: Messing with Stars
Imperial Law and Stuff
Traveller Film
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Re: How long is a jump?
re: Alien encyclopedia
Re: The Politics of ST...
Metalaw
Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: Piracy (not ST...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:59:43
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Battlefield Meson Guns

Has anyone else noticed that FFS2 lets you build a 8m long, 1 m diameter
meson gun, rig it up to a TL11 Fire Direction Center and give you an
automatic-hit no-delay artillery weapon with a range measured in thousands
of kilometers ?

Real good way to give Mr Grav Tank a real headache ...

Anyone else going to help me lobby Marc to have Meson Guns get a minimum
length that reduces as TL goes up, in order to make Battlefield Meson Guns
a TL 15 weapon again ?


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:37:27 +0100
From: Mats Erlandsson <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: Re: WOW

On Thursday, November 13, 1997 3:09 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
> 
> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:15:30 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: WOW
> 
> The table I have a copy of here is from Second Survey:
> 
> Goverment:				Race/allegiance
> E	Religious Oligarchy
> F	Totalitarion Oligarchy
> G	Small station or facility	Aslan
> H	Split clan control		Aslan
> J	Single on-world clan control	Aslan
> K	Single multi-world clan control	Aslan
> L	Major clan control		Aslan
> M	Vassal clan control		Aslan
> N	Major vassal clan control	Aslan
> P	Small station or faciluty	K'kree
> Q	Krurruna or Krumunak rule
> 	for off-world Steppelord	K'kree
> R	Steppelord on-world rule	K'kree
> S	?
> T	?
> U	Supervised anarchy		Hiver
> V	?
> W	?
> X	Droyne heirarchy		Droyne
> Y	?
> Z	?

 In MT the following codes is available:
S	Sept
T  	Unsupervised Anarchy
W	Comitte

> 
> The Law level chart has the normal A "no weapons, then blank lines
> until L (Totally oppressive and restrictive).

 ...or
A  Law Level     : A  (Extreme Law - Weapon possession prohibited)
B  Law Level     : B  (Extreme Law - Rigid control of civilian movement)
C  Law Level     : C  (Extreme Law - Unrestricted invasion of privacy)
D  Law Level     : D  (Extreme Law - Paramilitary law enforcement)
E  Law Level     : E  (Extreme Law - Full-fledged police state)
F  Law Level     : F  (Extreme Law - Daily life rigidly controlled)
G  Law Level     : G  (Extreme Law - Severe punishment for petty infractions)
H  Law Level     : H  (Extreme Law - Legalized oppressive practices)
J  Law Level     : J  (Extreme Law - Routinely oppressive and restrictive)
K  Law Level     : K  (Extreme Law - Excessively oppressive and restrictive)
L  Law Level     : L  (Extreme Law - Totally oppressive and restrictive)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:16:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Yet more piracy

[Leaving town in a few days.  May not reply to everthing...]
Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:45:26, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Because the ship jumping in doesn't know where the enemy is and
>>will be out of fuel to jump away.  The picket will be sitting
>>there with fuel and will spot the enemy first (from their
>>jump signature while he sits on low power with a low profile).
>
>If the ship designer is a complete and total incompetant, yes. If the ship
>designer of our theoretical scout ship is competant, and builds it with
>jump-n capability and fuel for two jump-n, then no. Take a armed far
>trader, add fuel bladders in the cargo bay. Does the job well. It's even
>armed well enough to destroy unarmed picket ships.

Yeah, but your scout has had time to pick is position, reduce
his signature, and has been loaded with good sensors.  Being
of "competant" design means he will have similar sensor, have
to deal with the jump signature, and then have to move through the
system finding people.  Your picket is just going to have to jump
away.

Even if he didn't, arming him would be useless unless you
expect him to fight his way out of the situation.  How often
do you think some scout ships is going to be able to take on
an invasion fleet.

>>And if you have dispersed ships to them in small numbers, they
>>can be picked off by even modest sized forces.

>Yep. Small *disposable* ships, who cost a very very small fraction of the
>cost of our ships of the line.

And these are going to stop pirates?  They would be great if
they just have to get back with news (which is why I have
pickets like this).

>By forcing the enemy to concentrate into modest-size forces, you are
>reducing the number of forces the enemy can have, and thus the number of
>systems they can interdict before reaction.

And, since they face dispersed forces, they can count on winning
every battle.  So your dispersed forces are only useful if the
enemy doesn't show up.

>Every set of combat rules I've seen allows jumps in combat.

Well, in fact Traveller history is full of ships catching
ships.  I think the canon explination if jump suppressors.

>>>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>>>sufficient.

>>Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.

[Fake ship communications....]

Even if one finds this cute, it doesn't nothing to advance your
point.  We have covered the idea that all ships would leave
from fixed, patroled jump point.  I disagree for reasons stated
before.

>Funny, I've always thought that the 12-18 parsec fringe of Imperial space
>would be exactly where pirates would operate, becasue it would allow flight
>to outside Imperial borders to sell cargoes and stolen ships at freeports.

Yes, in this part of the Imperium, they would have this kind of
piracy in addition.

[Regarding piracy that does not operate out of friendly states...]
We have covered this.  Yes, piracy operating like this has occured
and, in spite of your characterizing it as just rumours, happens
today.  It also would be easier to do in the Imperium than it
is today.  We have covered this and I stand by what I said before.

>>>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?

>>They don't attack anyone.

>Good. So if we have enough random patrols (preferably so the chance of
>running into a ship with whom you dont want to tangle i.e. an armed one is
>100%), then pirates go out of buisiness as pirates. Case closed.

And to be there 100% of the time you need to patrol everywhere all
the time.  That is the problem.  This is not "random patrols", it
is exactly what many are questioning.

>what transponder signal does it use ?

We have been over tranponders too.

[More stuff that has been covered, like wether you can always
spot a pirate...]

>>a) They are actually making money from it with legit and
>>other illegit activities (aka smuggling).

>The only smuggling the Imperium cares about is (a) nukes and (b) slaves.

Well, no.  Reread the list of Imperial crimes that was posted
(can you say "ancient artifacts, biologicals, etc?).  And there
is also smuggling things past locals.

>>b) They aren't making money and are desperate to keep it
>>because "business if just about to turn arond" or the
>>don't want to admit failure.

>Bullshit. Just isnt going to happen. The *entire* crew needs to be on-side

Bullshit yourself.  You can swear all you want, but doesn't make
your opinions truth.  If the entire crew is on the adventure
thay can all be despartate.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:30:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2097

[I will be leaving in a few days and not replying to everything...]
Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:04:20 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>(and we haven't gotten to how you are supporting all these
>>ships in systems without any bases)

>  Actually we have.

There is more to basing a ship than annual maintenance.

>>>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>>>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?
>>
>>So he doesn't attack those ships.
>
>  Umm, the authorities can't tell that a ship has upgraded arms
>and computer, but a pirate _can_ tell? Neat.

No, he doesn't attack the ships that are armed at all.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:36:15 +0000
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re:Messing with Stars

>Bill Prankard wrote:
 
> Hmmm... Star Detonation for fun and Profit eh?
> <Checks to see if Hengebar is around>
> 
> Ok, heres a 'canonical' reference:
> 
> The Dariens (Daryens?) Used their "Star Trigger" to destabalise their own 
> sun.  From what I remember it shot mesons into the core of a star.  This was 
> an experiment and was not intened to be a weapon.
I think it's 'Darrians'.
 
> Now for the not so canonical:
> 
> Other ways I have played with are disrupting the magnetic field of the star. 
>  Or inducing a high gravity "pulse" within the star.  I would think either 
> of these could cause some intesting effects.
> 
> How about a nuke damper?  What would happen if we put nuke damper satalites 
> in orbit and fired on the star?  Seeming as stars are one big nuclear 
> reaction....
> 
> <In his best Artie Johnson voice>
> Verrrrrrry interesting.....
> 
> Commander X
I seem to recall some astonomer or other saying that a large, but not 
excessively huge gamma-ray pulse would do the trick. How needs those 
pesky near-C rocks, anyway?

R. Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:35:07 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

Leonard Erickson wrote

> >>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
> >>only vote if you owned property or had a profession.
> The only way the *un*enfranchised (dis-enfranchised refers to people
> who have had the vote *taken away*, not those who never had it) will be
> denied a chance to earn the right is if the enfranchised deliberately
> keep them from being able to earn the money to buy property, or the
> ability to *learn* a profession. Neither was true in the US.

Leonard what about women, or non whites ?  Law and custom both
deliberately "keep them from being able to earn the money to buy
property, or the ability to *learn* a profession."

Without meaning to sound harsh here I must point out that your statement
is _not_ correct.

- -- 
 pnewman@alaska.net		Peter Newman 
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"I have been nothing but compassionate and understanding. I mean, all
you had to do was to admit you were wrong and I was right and everything
would've been fine." - Ivanova to Winters in Babylon5: "Divided
Loyalties"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:50:55 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote

> Sorry, but it is according to canon (Tarsus), in the Boxed module it's
> stated that "honourable service in the Imperial forces" gives you
> citizenship.
> 
> Also from M:0 "Warrent of restoration - Article I, Para 4":
> "The Imperium considers citizens any living recognised sentient creature
> native to or naturalised by a member world of the Imperium, or any living
> sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity,
> protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of
> the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."
> 
> Reading this, if you're born on a member world you're a citizen; if you're
> naturalised by a *local* government you're a citizen; and if you swear
> fealty (take the Emperor's credit), you're a citizen.
> 
> In 17 Cleon declared exctly what a "sentient creature" was. I believe the
> precise reference is in the MT referees sourcebook (of which my copy is
> on loan to a friend), but it goes something like
> "any biological intelligent creature". It's framed to prevent robots from
> being citzens. It's refered to in M:0 as "Cleon's Pro-sentient speach"


So what is your status if you are born on a ship in jump space ?
(Between 2 Imperial Worlds)

Are you 

1) An Imperial Citizen without a home world
2) A citizen of the planet your ship is registered on
3) A Citizen of your Mothers homeworld
4) A citizen of the first planet you land on
5) Not a citizen of the Imperium or of any planet
6) An Imperial Citizen who may or may not have citizenship from a
planet, depending on its laws.

- -- 
 pnewman@alaska.net		Peter Newman 
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"I have been nothing but compassionate and understanding. I mean, all
you had to do was to admit you were wrong and I was right and everything
would've been fine." - Ivanova to Winters in Babylon5: "Divided
Loyalties"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:18:17 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Traveller movie

If anyone remembers, I actually had the development committee here at
Nelvana (animation studio) interested in the idea of a traveller movie. But
then Sweetpea never got back to me. 

Then I heard about the idea of doing a live action movie. If Sweetpea is
listening, how about a series?
They are still interested here (and I think they would go for it)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:14:40 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Looking for.

Anyway I am looking for challenge 54,60 or the article "Wet Navy2",
"Maritime
environment and navel combat".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:13:37 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Compiled Sector Data on the web

Due to the surprising (but very nice!) demand for the database and/or the 
spreadsheet, I've thrown together a website at 
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html.

Please help yourselves!  (p.s. I also fixed the problem in the zip file! ):

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:58:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Messing with Stars

In mail you write:

> Other ways I have played with are disrupting the magnetic field of the star. 
>  Or inducing a high gravity "pulse" within the star.  I would think either 
> of these could cause some intesting effects.

The trouble is the *power* you'd need.

> How about a nuke damper?  What would happen if we put nuke damper satalites 
> in orbit and fired on the star?  Seeming as stars are one big nuclear 
> reaction....

In main sequence stars only habe fusion occuring in the core. And
rather slowly at that!
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:30:33 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperial Law and Stuff

 Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

>About the ST morality thing ... one thing I strongly think is that when
>analysing a form of government, one should look at how easily it can be
>rigged.

I've vague recollections of reading an article about one of Einstein's
German compatriots, who escaped to the west. Apparently he was taking an
exam of some form for citizenship in the US and almost blew it. Why?
Because when the interviewer said 'at least that couldn't happen here' he
proceeded to explain exactly how the establishment could be subverted.

If anyone knows who and where this morsel came from, I'd appreciate a reminder.

I suspect that unless the citizens are vigilant, any state could be
subverted over time.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:12:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller Film

Wouldn't the logical time sequence for a film be the Fifth Frontier War?

Evil Alien invasion, with an incompetant in charge of the Imperium's
defense. Desperate attempts by Norris to find the Warrant that gives him
the power to control. This found, he deploys the fleets and forces a return
to the status quo!

1116 has the unfortunate side effect that it doesn't really conclude, and
fifteen years history and then Virus makes a depressing end to the film.
It's a great background but not a film IMHO! The FFW has goodies, baddies
and a nice easy resolution. If that's successful we have the 1116
mini-series.....

Even a TNE film with operations in the Promise subsector would be better....

So would a Hard Times type (keep the flame burning) story.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:18:21 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
>=20
> In a message dated 97-11-13 08:18:57 EST, grei5001@uni-trier.de writes:
>=20
> << I fear that for the kind of Special FX we would want that movie to h=
ave,
>  it will polly have a very high pricetag, even with loads of B5-style
>  CGI-effects, too high for most indies. So it has to be one of the big
>  hollywood companies
>   >>
>=20
> I thought this was the part of Starship Troopers everyone hated...that
> someone put the effects above the story.   Maybe a quick vote is in > >=
 order:
I feel that you can have both: a good story (which is an absolute
essential-please, no more love affairs in space), AND good FX.
A Traveller Movie shouild be an all around masterpiece, that leaves
everybody saying wow, where can i get this game. To achieve that,
effects like in B5 or 5th Element are necessary, as opposed to effects
like in Dark Star or Space Mutiny (easily the worst SciFi ever).

As for a plot, i would recommend using one of the CT modules, don=B4 t
know which yet.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:34:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How long is a jump?

In mail you write:

> How far does a ship "travel" in jumpspace??
>
> When a ship jumps, it leaves one part of normal space and a week later
> arrives in another part of normal space. In the interim the ship is
> "travelling" in another space.

It's *in* another space. Whether or not it is travelling is hard to
say, give that you can't do to detect *anything* outsde the jump
bubble.

> If one considers that jumpspace is another continuum where the distance is
> shorter than in real space, just how far is that distance?

It could be arbitrarily short. This is hard to explain without some
diagrams. But if you think of a pair of planes at an agle to each
other, it helps.

> Does the ship move at all in this other continuum, or can one enter this
> space and ultimately exit in a different place without moving in jumpspace?

Unknown.

> Does jumping involve the warping of real space between the two endpoints to
> make the distance travelled zero, and the operation takes a week to take
> effect?

No! That always *sounds* like it'd maje a great drive. Only thing is,
what if two ships jump at the same time? You make a mess out of
spacetime.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:52:39 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: Alien encyclopedia

Dom wrote:    <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

>The Travellers' Aid Society Alien Encyclopedia.
>- ------------------------------------------
>Publisher IBR Productions, Hemmingen, Germany
>ISBN 3-89505-001-6
>Cost 250 DM (+30DM postage and packing to UK)

and added comments that I'd wholeheatedly agree with.

In fact I got my bill yesterday and was thinking I should tell folk about
the cost and the book.  (just in case anyone thought that the whole thing
was imaginary as someone asked me a while back)

My final bill (including postage to the UK and exchange rates etc., came to
101 pounds which makes it sound like a BITS product!  I reckon that must be
$160 or so.  Yes it is expensive, but what a book you get.  I rarely like
books just for the physical attributes rather than the contents but this
has both!

Also, consider that if you were to try and buy all the alien modules and
Alien Realms separately in auctions, you could easily pay $20-30 for each
item.  And that's if you could buy them at all.  Some I've seen for sale
only very rarely.


As Dom said, if you don't own the Alien modules, this volume is highly
recommended and for those that do have the alien modules but like natty
looking Traveller books and have the money, go for it.  I certainly don't
regret having saved all year to be able to buy it.


Thanks Marc for letting IBR do this and here's to them doing a similar
volume with, say, all the LBBs.


Dom then added (without any solicitation I might add!):

>Those of you who want to know more about the modules are recommended to
>look up Tim Collinson's 'The Traveller Bibliography' which has entries on
>them all (and is available from BITS).

Well, what can I say?  <blush>



tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:08:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

In mail you write:

>         Nope.  I'm just saying that _generally_, human rights in Western
> society are concieved in such a way (i.e. framed in legislation) that the
> taking of life is heavily sanctioned and only justified in a few
> circumstances such as war or self-defence.  Generally speaking, the
> "grundnorms", or basic moral beliefs expressed in the legal frameworks in
> question, hold that life is the basic right.  This tends to get expressed
> in constitutions: the U.S. Bill of Rights, IIRC, has something to say about
> "Life, liberty, and happiness" right at the beginning.

No, that's in the Declaration of Independence. It's not in the Bill of
rights (first 10 ammendments to the constitution).

>         My problem with it is that it's insufficient punishment.  IMHO,
> rotting away behind bars for the rest of my life expectancy would be sheer
> hell.  I'd take thirty seconds in the chair or hanging over that at the
> drop of a hat rather than spend my life deprived of my freedom to walk
> round to the corner store to buy my morning paper (or to do whatever else I
> felt like within reason) while being surrounded by assorted scumbageous
> criminals.

Alas, it costs a *fortune* to keep you in jail that long.

>         Which reminds me of this idea my classmates and I cooked up one
> evening over a few too many beers...  Just build a very large cinderblock
> warehouse way hellandgone up on Baffin Island.  Provide it with basic
> heating.  Put in basic food preparation facilities, provide the inmates
> with basic indoor clothing, and install exercise bicycles in case they get
> bored or the heating isn't warm enough for them.  Do not put any bars on
> the windows or locks on the doors.
>
>         Put up polar bear feeding stations in a 60-kilometer radius around
> the building.  Move them weekly.

The hard part is preventing them from getting outside help. A few
buddies and a helicopter, and they are free.

Just like the idea of dumping prisoners on a habitable planet with some
watchdog satellites. It works fine until somebody shows up with a ship.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:40:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Metalaw

Metalaw started as an attempt to devise a code of behavior or ethics
that would be equally applicable to humans and to any concievable
aliens we might encounter.

The first thing to go out the window is the golden rule. Treating an
alien the way you'd want to be treated could *kill* the alien.

So they use this instead:

The Great Rule of Metalaw:

	Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

And tthe other basic principle is Kant's Categorical Imperative:

	Act in such a way that the maxim of your will can at the same
	time always be vaild as a principle of general legislation.

In other words, always stop and ask yourself "but what if *everyone*
acted this way?".

From the above they came up with the following (I have a more recent
version, but only in hardcopy, I'll type it in if folks are interested)

the eleven "fundamental metalaws" in descending order of importance

 1. No partner of Metalw may demand an impossibility.
 2. No rule of Metalaw must be complied with when compliance would
    result in the practical suicide of the obligated race.
 3. All intelligent races of the universe have in principle equal
    rights and values.
 4. Every partner of Metalaw has the right of self-determination.
 5. Any act which causes harm to another race must be avoided.
 6. Every race is entitled to it's own living space.
 7. Every race has the right to defend itself against against any
    harmful act performed by another race.
 8. The preserving of one race has priority over the developement of
    another race.
 9. In case of damage, the damager must restore the integrity of the
    damaged party.
10. Metalegal agreements and treaties must be kept.
11. To help other races by one's own activities is not a legal but a
    basic ethical principle.

Anyway, this is quite probably the basis of Imperial Law. It leaves a
*lot* of leeway for various cultures (see #3 & #4). But it also gives
an interesting take on things. For example, the "bounty hunter"
question would seem to fall under #3, #4, and #7. #3 & #7 are in
favor, #4 is against. Of course, there's also the matter of going from
"race"(culture) to individual. That's where the later version is a bit
more helpful.

Note that the Hivers and the K'kree routinely vuiklate the rules. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:23:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Compiled Sector Data Available

>Douglas,
>If you could sent it in Excell 5 I would be grateful. Thanks.

Ditto, if you don't mind.

ZIP it if you want to.


    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:57:17 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (not ST...)

>>I also might see pirate keeping the ship because
>>
>>a) They are actually making money from it with legit and
>>other illegit activities (aka smuggling).
>
>
>>b) They aren't making money and are desperate to keep it
>>because "business if just about to turn arond" or the
>>don't want to admit failure.
>
>  Hmm, followed by skipping, more crime, possibly desperate enough
>to try an unsafe target...  ...but still believable, and possibly
>successful either in going legit again or getting filthy rich.

For someone who has been out the loop for some time, is it still 
impossible to change transpoders in starships?  It would seem to me that 
there *could* be a tremendous black market/organized crime interest in 
developing a way to change transponders so that stolen ships 
disappear....

Has that been discussed before?

Greg Smith

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2098
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2099



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hi ho...
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: How long is a piece of string?
Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Messing with stars
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2095
Improved Terrapin 
laser penetration in FFS2
Compiled Sector Data Available on the web
Re: WOW
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
X-TEK Ships
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
batteries of weapons in T4 combat
Sector Data Combed Over
Trav Movie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:23:49 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Hi ho...

>        As I mentioned above, it's a pretty easy inference.  I'd be
>surprised if Heinlein, who advocated on-the-spot capital punishment by
>vacuum exposure without benefit of appeal for non-aggravated sexual assault
>in another novel, would have had the TF justice system provide the same
>kind of protection for the accused.  The corporal punishment thing
>certainly isn't typical of _modern_ Western justice systems, and IMHO is
>more evidence for a less-than-formal justice system in keeping with
>Heinlein's leanings.

One should not automatically assume that because a SF writers society
advocates something the author does as well. Does crime writers like
promote murder?
The airlock thing I take it you got fromn "The moon is a harsh mistress".

(I do agree that some of Heinleins work were little camouflaged political
pamphlets but those are his later works (Number of the beast) etc)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:02:28 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

>
>	OBTRAV: Maybe the 3I has this prison planet .....

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the term OBTRAV or ObTrav?


Greg


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:00:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

In mail you write:

>         I'd be more concerned about the elasticity. Sure, take a 1 light-year
> string. Tug on it. What's going to happen is that the portion of the string
> you're holding will move toward you. That portion will pull the next
> portion, and the next portion, and the next portion. The far end of the
> string certainly won't move at the same time as the near end--you've got to
> propagate the force down the length of the string.
>
>         The only substance that could conceivable work would have infinite
> rigidity. In which case it would make perfect armor ... if you could work
> it.

Try a cosmic string. Of course, there's a slight problem in that any
attempt to grab the string will ruin pretty much anything that gets
near it (gravity fields as bad as a black hole).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:49:51 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?

Geez, you guys. This isn't the Heinlein discussion list. I don't like him
and will probably uninhibitedly enjoy the film as the exercise in public
media entertainment it is supposed to be. I'd reall rather not have to keep
deleting the messages on the list about it and NOT about Traveller.

Obligatory traveller bit:
Subject: Imperial Starship Troopers
What is the average Imperial Marine likely to wear? What is their main role
in shipboard life? Is it for initiating and repelling boarding actions? If
so, I think it unlikely they are going to be going around in battle dress
with plasma guns all the time. There are lots of small places on ships.
Or is their main role for securing select installations. Like, the ships
pound the hell out of a station, starport with their capital weapons, and
the marines take and hold them. The Army comes in later and garrisons it?
This would imply more heavy weapons and armament.
However, odds are that the majority of a marine's life is spent outside of
combat or near-combat situations. What are their _normal_ shipboard duites?
Are they the military police or is that kept separate?

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:42:13 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

Peter Newman wrote:

>So what is your status if you are born on a ship in jump space ?
>(Between 2 Imperial Worlds)
>
>Are you
>
>1) An Imperial Citizen without a home world
>2) A citizen of the planet your ship is registered on
>3) A Citizen of your Mothers homeworld
>4) A citizen of the first planet you land on
>5) Not a citizen of the Imperium or of any planet
>6) An Imperial Citizen who may or may not have citizenship from a
>planet, depending on its laws.

7) A hideous, unnatural, twisted parody of life;
8) A Templar

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:28:35 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Messing with stars

>
   Hi.
   
> From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
   
> I recall that in Larry Niven's "Protector", the Protector Brennan killed
> the crews of another two ramships using a rifle. He fired it into a
> neutron star while they were in close orbit, and the resulting radiation
> flare took out the bad guys. 
> What do people think of Niven's physics here? 
   
   That depends.  How close to the star were these ships?  Dropping 10
   grams of material onto the surface of a neutron star should make an
   x-ray burst of the same order of magnitude as a nuclear bomb.  So
   you'd need to be within a few miles to be affected.  I suspect that
   one 10-gram bullet is pretty small potatoes compared to all the debris
   that would normally be falling into a neutron star anyway, but then
   again, Niven likes to put his n-stars in unusual places.
   
   -Rob
   

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:45:01 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

I was working on a rational system of law that classified crimes for "all"
cultures. Think about how various crimes fit into this scheme...

Marc

THE CATEGORIES OF CRIME
		Crimes Against
		Property	Environment	Beings	Society
	1	Vandalism	Waste	Assault	Violation
	2	Damage	Damage	Mayhem	Slack
	3	Theft	Pollution	Slaughter	Dishonor
	4	Destruction	Ravage	Murder	Treason
	5	Havoc	Ruin	Mass Murder	High Treason
	Degree. 	Crimes are further detailed by degree, the exponent of the economic
value or cost of the crime: Violation-2 is a minor crime involving a value of
about  Cr100. Intentionally killing a businessman is Murder-6 (attributing to
him a value of Cr1,000,000); killing a laborer is perhaps Murder-4. Assigning
economic value to a crime is admittedly sometimes a subjective decision.
	Cultural Values. Not all cultures believe that all of the instances on this
list are crimes.

Crimes Against Property
	Vandalism. Casual defacing of property.
	Damage. Physical devaluation of property, but falling short of destruction.
	Theft. Taking property in order to convert its ownership. Includes theft
(taking by stealth) and robbery (taking by force), fraud (taking of property
by deception).
	Destruction. Physical destruction of property. Includes Arson, Bombing.
	Havoc. Mass or indiscriminant destruction of property.

Crimes Against The Environment
	Waste. Misuse of resources. Includes failing to sort trash, failure to
maintain equipment in efficient running order.
	Contamination. Minor crimes against the environment. Includes littering,
emitting obnoxious noises or odors, failure to dispose of useless property.
	Pollution. Active disposal of untreated waste. Includes unauthorized toxic
waste disposal. 
	Ravage. Includes strip mining, 
	Ruin. Includes 

Crimes Against Beings.
	Assault. Physical violence against intelligent beings with or without short
term injury.
	Mayhem. Physical violence against intelligent beings which results in long
term or permanent injury. Includes Aggravated Battery, Rape.
	Slaughter. Killing an intelligent being, but without intention.
	Murder. Deliberate killing of an intelligent being. Includes serial murder.
	Mass Murder. Multiple killing of intelligent beings. Includes illegal war.

Crimes Against Society or the State
	Violation. Disobedience of regulations intended to maintain order. Includes
traffic or curfew violations, failures of permits or paperwork.
	Slack. Undue dependence on society or the state. Includes welfare or
unemployment assistance abuse.
	Dishonor. Actions which could (but have not) harm members of society.
Includes prohibited weapon offenses, incitement to riot, possession of
dangerous drugs or hazardous materials.
	Disloyalty. 
	Treason.

Crimes Against God
	Venial Sins. 
	Mortal Sins.
	Blasphemy.
	Heresy.
	Disbelief.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:21:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcus Teter <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2095

Scott wrote:

>Or where the Imperium feels bold enough to take control.  For their own
>survival, they cannot do it often, but I suspect there is something in
>there about being able to nationalize damn near anything, if war demanded
>it.                       ^^^^^^^^^^

read confiscate...

Sorry, couldn't resist with all the RAH discussion going on.

Marcus

      


      

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:15:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Improved Terrapin 

- --=====================_879556550==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is my first full design using FFS@ and Andy Akins' incredible
spreadsheet.

A few things that I've noticed:

Big computers are a very good thing.  By using a powerful comp, I cut the
crew needs in half.  

I like having all the little "fiddly bits" like gyms and armories.. helps
me keep the design in my mind.

I definitely like all the options Andy's included.  Differing ranges,
budgets, etc..

One oddity, though..  When I did the three laser batteries, the first comes
up as 4-2-2-2.. the other two, which are identical, come in as 4-4-4-4.
Does the spreadsheet consider additional batteries of the same weapon to be
a "super battery"?

Enjoy!


- --=====================_879556550==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Improved Terrapin, Terrapin class Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (FF&S v2, FF&S ranges)
Designed by Douglas Berry, Gridlore Technologies

Statistics
Tons: 2,600std( SL/Hyper)   Crew: 6/27     Cargo: 730std (0/2 /Hdl:1x40ton)
Volume: 36,400m3            Passengers High/Med: 0/10   Cost: 1,191.671 MCr
Mass (L/C): 35,929t/24,471t Passengers Low: 0       Maintenance Points: 914
Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)    Troops/Science: 0/10             Tech Level: 12
Size: 9                     Dimensions: 106.1m x 21.4m x 21.4m

Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3xComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). No bridge.
Communications:
  1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW).
  1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
Sensors:
  1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0.00MW).
  1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 0.25MW).
  1xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm], 0.10MW).
Survey/Science: none
ECM: none
Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:0.0 (-0.5 at 295MW), Act:0.0, Neu:1, Grav:1

Weaponry                        Performance
                                3 Jump (260std/pc fuel)
1xLaser (+4) 1/4-2-2-2          2.0/3.0 Maneuver (/Thruster:1,820MW)
1xLaser (+4) 1/4-4-4-4          1.0/1.5 Contra-grav (619MW)
1xLaser (+4) 1/4-4-4-4          Atmosphere 3,315kph/3,866kph
                                /Crus:2,486kph/2,900kph)
Features                        2 Power (/Fusion:2,950MW,1.0)
                                811.6 Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:36,11MW)
1xElectronic Shop (6std)        0/23/0/0/0 Accomodations
1xMachine Shop (10std)          172 Life Support (/Type:St /FQ:Nm /'Sto)
1xLaboratory (8std)             2 G-Comp 
1xSickbay (8std)                0 ESA
1xShip's locker (1.30std)       6 Sandcasters ( /AV:39 /Cans:30)
1xArmory (0.43std)              0 Damper Turrets
1xGym (2.5std)                  5 Damper Screen (0MW)
1xFull Galley (Cap:22)          5 Meson Screen (0.02MW)
26xAirlock                      0 Force Field
1xDocking Umbilical             0 Gravtics
                                20 [100] Armor, Structure 22
1xSpacious Hanger (90std craft, 1 hatch)

Backups
Drives:
Screens:
Communications: 1xRadio (500km). 1xLaser (50km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]).
Survey/Science: 
ECM: 
Power & Fuel: 

Crew Details
2xMnvr. 1xElec. 1xEngr. 3xGunn. 8xScrn. 3xFlgt. 12xTrps. 2xCmnd. 2xStew. 1xMed.

Gridlore Technologies is proud to announce the first flight of the I.M.V Dark Star, first of the new Series II Terrapin Exploratory Cruisers.

Bigger, better equipped, and on the forefront of technology, the Dark Star is the perfect tool for the expansion of trade into newly recontacted areas.  All of the features of the popular Terrapin (winner of the ISBA's Award for Excellence) remain, and the entire package has been tightened.

Improvements in the electronics suite has cut the crew requirement in half, while actually increasing the amount and quality of sensor data reaching the crew.  The flight deck makes use of the highest quality dynamic controls, and anti-tamper and anti-hijack protocols insure that only authorized personnel affect ship's operations

The Dark Star keeps the immensely popular troop compliment, and now provides them with a dedicated armory for secure weapons storage.  A full gymnasium has been added by popular demand, along with a complete kitchen facility with seating for 22 people for full, nutritious meals.  The ship's expanded science section has a full laboratory to make use of, allowing almost any basic scientific question to be answered.

GT understands that it's a dangerous frontier.  The Dark Star has an impressive set of 95Mj laser batteries, along with military grade armor and a full compliment of sandcasters.  We even went to the trouble of receiving permission to mount a meson screen and nuclear damper for your protection.

If you don't want to fight, run!  The Dark Star can accelerate at a constant 2G even with full cargo.  Run empty, and streak away at 3G constant!  (NOTE: 3G exceeds the design limitations of the hull.  Design tolerances should not be exceeded expect in dire emergency.  Over acceleration damage is not covered by warranty agreement with Gridlore Technologies, LIC.)

With 750 displacement tons of cargo space, and an onboard hanger for a 90-ton shuttle, the Dark Star is a versatile merchant for the unsettled frontier.  There are fortunes to be made out there, and the Dark Star is the ship that will get you there.

Sir Arameth Gridlore wishes to express his sympathies to the employees and families of Long Run Frontier Transport, LIC, and has posted a 5 MCr. reward for information leading to the apprehension of whomever attacked the I.M.V. Looks Like Rain.

- --=====================_879556550==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  
- --=====================_879556550==_--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:52:02 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: laser penetration in FFS2

I posted a long message to trav-tech about lasers penetrating armour - in
FFS1/TNE lasers got a bonus to go through armour, in FFS2 this is missing,
with the result that even civilian ships can easily have enough armour to
be completely immune to most laser weapons. I can email the long message to
anyone who wants it, but the reader's digest version is that I suggested
bringing back the "penetration rating" for lasers - a multiplier that is
applied to the targets armour - but having it be standardized for all
lasers of a given type:

     Chem Laser    Chem laser    DEI laser     DEI laser   X-ray  Detonation
     in atmos.     in space	 in atmos      in space	   laser    Laser
        1              1/4          1            1/10      1/10     1/20  

(DEI="Direct Energy Input", the standard Traveller laser.) So, if a 
starship laser with an FFS2 rating of 25 hits a target with an armour of 
60 it does 25 - (60/10)=19 points of damage. Note that I have cleverly 
arranged things so that the most common kind of laser involves only dividing
by 10, which is easy for most people to do. Note also that I have made lasers
hitting targets in atmosphere much weaker, which is probably a good thing 
(at least for anyone on the ground.))

(Note also that this is on FFS2's damage/armour scale (roughly matching
the personal combat armour scale in T4), not the T4 starship scale; a 
later post will explain how to do that.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:51:17 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Compiled Sector Data Available on the web

Hey all!

I tried to post a similar message last night, but I have yet to see it come back
- - so I'm reposting!  :)

I've been very pleasantly surprised at all the mail I've gotten requesting a
copy of my file.  Finally, I'm known for something other than arguing about
obscure topics!  :)

Anyway, to the point... I whipped out a quick web page last night and posted
both the spreadsheet and the flat database (i.e. no data normalization - just
the imported data) out on the web.  You can find the page at
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Both the spreadsheet and the database are zipped in a self-extracting
executable.  The spreadsheet is about 800K and the database is a bit over 400K.
I saved the spreadsheet in Excel 5.0 format, but the database is still in
Access97.

I should point out that I do not believe that the data is suitable for a M:0
campaign, but is more focused towards a M:1100 (which is what I run) campaign.
I have not yet begun checking against my sources for accuracy, but the Missouri
Archive has always been a reliable source in the past.  (I know, I've pulled a
LOT of material from there!  It's kinda satisfying to be able to give back...)

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WOW

In-Reply-To: <199711122339.AAA08416@student.liu.se>

Jens,

> >E = Religious Autocracy
> >
> >With a LL of E (police state), this place would make Afganistan
> look 
> >like a hippy commune...
>  
> Where did you look this up? It's not in the T4 rulebook in any
> case

TNE rulebook. I'm fairly sure they're listed in one of the MT books 
too.

> Are there more government descriptions and law level descriptions
> where you
> got this stuff? I think I could use it (appearantly First survey
> uses these

A few. I don't have the book handy ATM.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:18:17 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <BRuadh@southwest.net>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

At 12:41 AM 11/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll save 
>it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size 
>(which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send it 
>once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)
>
>Let me know if you are interested!
>
As this very interested long time Traveller enthusiast slavers at the
prospect I must say YES I am interested. Perhaps it might be better to
upload the spreadsheet back to the misssouri archive? This way any
interested parties can grap this tasty tidbit at their convience. I assume
of course that Joe can handle such a large upload.

Sincerely,
Brian A. Howard

If you hear the sound of a Babel fish, run. 
For a Vogon constuctor fleet cannot be far behind.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: X-TEK Ships

Well, I gave you a warning. I see Arameth Gridlore has started to post his 
designs with the revised Terapin, might as well follow suit.
Here it comes, The first X-TEK non THUDDD ship posting.

Special Thanx to Andrew Atkins for his FFS spreadsheet.

and now, the totally revamped X-TEK XTF-1 Alpha Class 10ton Fighter:

XTF-1/0001, Alpha class Fighter (FF&S v2)                             
Designed by X-TEK Industries, LIC                           
                                   
Statistics                              
     Tons: 10std ( AF Wedge Hypersonic )          Crew: 1/1 Cargo: 0std 
(0/0)          
     Volume: 140m3       Passengers High/Med: 0/0 Cost: 28.868 MCr         
     Mass (L/C): 180t/180t         Passengers Low: 0   Maintenance Points: 
6         
     Dimensions: 16.2m x11.1mx4.6m      TechLevel:12        Size: 7   
                                   
Electronics                             
     Controls:Dynamic,Standard automation    2xFibComp(CM:1.0CP:1.0). No 
bridge.                       
     Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW). 
                         
     Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0.00MW).
             1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 0.25MW).
             1xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.20MW).                      
     Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1.0 (-1.5 at 5MW), Act:-0.5,
               Neu:-1, Grav:-1                         
Weaponry                 
     1xLaser (+4) 1/2-2-2-2(1/2-0-0-0) [1,100/24-24-24-24]

4.0/4.0   Maneuver (/Thruster:18MW)          
1.0/1.0   Contra-grav (3MW)        
          3,645kph/3,648kph   Atmosphere (/Crus:2,734kph/2,736kph)         
10        Power (/Fusion+:48MW,24.0)         
0.0  Fuel      
0/0/0/0/0 Accomodations       
0    Life Support (/Type:Ba /FQ:Nm /'Sto)         
3    G-Comp         
10 [29]   Armor, Structure 2       

Crew Details                            
     1xMnvr.

This is the original Fighter from X-TEK.  Designed in Year 20 to compliment, 
and eventually replace the Zhunastu F-0 Class of fighter. (OOC: the one in 
'Starships')  A small light fighter used in patrols and escorts.  This 
fighter is capable of maneuvering in both space and atmosphere, due to its 
"flying wing" configuration.  Whereas most fighters are designed around a 
single forward firing laser "lance", the XTF-1 Alpha has a military standard 
95Mj laser turret in its design.  The benefits are a standard socket weapon 
that can be repaired or replaced with utmost efficiency, and the 360 arc of 
fire. Also an MFD was installed to provide a better targeting solution, 
something that was not available in the F-0. The hull has been stealthed and 
masked to make it a difficult target to lock onto.  Power is supplied for up 
to 24 standard hours by a Zhunastu Industries Fusion+ unit.


Enjoy!

 ---------------------------------------------------
\\  //  "New Technologies for the New Imperium"
T E K   Military and Civilian Contractor
//  \\  Contact cmdrx@magicnet.net or bprankard@theiia.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:47:44 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

Me too. Excel 97 is fine for me.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:52:20 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: batteries of weapons in T4 combat

A second problem with T4/SSDS/etc. is the way they group weapons into 
batteries; a set of 100 dinky little 1 Mj lasers is actually much better than
a single 100 MJ laser, even though the 1 MJ lasers would be completely
incapable of penetrating even civilian ship armour if you treated them
individually. 

(This is exacerbated by the "ablative armour" of T4 space combat.)

A suggestion (which I posted in more detail to trav-tech) is to 
add to the USD of battery weapons a "penetration rating" (which is the
maximum armour they can penetrate) as well as their existing "damage
rating". If the penetration rating is less than the targets armour, the
weapon does only surface damage. If the pen rating is greater than the
armour, the weapon does an interior explosion hit with its full damage
rating. If the pen rating is equal to the armour, it would do an interior
explosion with its damage value reduced by 2.

So, for example, one medium laser (which used to be rated 1-1-1-1) would be
rated (70:1 70:1 70:1 70:1) (this assumes the enhanced laser penetration 
mentioned in my previous post.) Ten small lasers, which used to be rated
1-1-1-1 as well, would be 10:1 10:1 10:1 10:1 - capable only of surface hits
against a moderately armoured target.

Discussion of this probably belongs on trav-tech, but I thought I would
summarize the suggestion here...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1997 14:40 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Sector Data Combed Over

Howdy,

I wrote a Perl script to scurry through the text sector
data and pull out starport + population information for
Imperial worlds.  The data is almost certainly not perfect,
but it should be *usefully* accurate.  Here's what came out.

Rob

- ---

Imperial Citizens and Starports

m = millions of citizens
b = billions of citizens
t = trillions of citizens

Sector               Population    # of Ports
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alphacrucis.sec      274.6b  A:9     B:19    C:28    D:10    E:11    X:1
antares.sec          615.6b  A:77    B:120   C:133   D:45    E:72    X:18
core.sec             587.7b  A:78    B:280   C:62    D:49    E:51    X:0
corridor.sec         758.4m  A:5     B:6     C:7     D:1     E:0     X:1
dagudashaag.sec      839.3b  A:93    B:145   C:226   D:82    E:13    X:0
daibei.sec           906.5b  A:60    B:108   C:144   D:58    E:52    X:8
delphi.sec           575.6b  A:51    B:75    C:79    D:37    E:44    X:5
deneb.sec            620.1b  A:36    B:89    C:99    D:42    E:49    X:11
diaspora.sec         458b    A:68    B:101   C:131   D:56    E:73    X:16
emptyq.sec           93b     A:27    B:32    C:37    D:17    E:20    X:1
fornast.sec          502.1b  A:83    B:143   C:157   D:55    E:62    X:17
glimmerdrift.sec     55.9b   A:3     B:19    C:10    D:4     E:5     X:1
gushemege.sec        543.7b  A:81    B:134   C:155   D:65    E:75    X:17
hinter.sec           3m      A:1     B:1     C:0     D:0     E:0     X:0
ilelish.sec          953.1b  A:72    B:243   C:48    D:44    E:43    X:0
ley.sec              484.3b  A:53    B:81    C:92    D:38    E:48    X:4
lishun.sec           576.9b  A:48    B:81    C:98    D:28    E:42    X:0
magyar.sec           426.4b  A:22    B:21    C:51    D:15    E:18    X:5
massilia.sec         1t      A:87    B:285   C:61    D:40    E:45    X:0
oldexpanses.sec      1.2t    A:112   B:132   C:113   D:14    E:15    X:15
reaversdeep.sec      206.5b  A:13    B:20    C:22    D:2     E:8     X:0
reft.sec             101.3b  A:13    B:44    C:10    D:5     E:5     X:0
solomanirim.sec      1.2t    A:135   B:66    C:56    D:10    E:6     X:7
spinward.sec         256.4b  A:43    B:70    C:81    D:20    E:41    X:17
trojanre.sec         71b     A:5     B:11    C:2     D:3     E:3     X:0
verge.sec            240.4b  A:33    B:55    C:60    D:34    E:32    X:8
vland.sec            871.6b  A:63    B:104   C:124   D:46    E:72    X:0
zarushagar.sec       316.4b  A:73    B:276   C:51    D:42    E:38    X:0
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals:              14.1t   1444     2761   2137     862    943     152


Sector               Population by Port Type
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alphacrucis.sec      A:6b     B:43.7b  C:111.7b D:31b    E:82b    X:2000
antares.sec          A:109.6b B:95.8b  C:269.8b D:4.8b   E:132.1b X:3.2b
core.sec             A:75.8b  B:402.3b C:25.4b  D:68.5b  E:15.5b  X:0
corridor.sec         A:4.2m   B:548.1m C:6m     D:200m   E:0      X:60000
dagudashaag.sec      A:385.5b B:134.6b C:221b   D:84.6b  E:13.4b  X:0
daibei.sec           A:210.1b B:100.7b C:219.1b D:239.9b E:133b   X:3.4b
delphi.sec           A:99.5b  B:37.1b  C:185.4b D:223b   E:30.2b  X:234m
deneb.sec            A:20.4b  B:154.3b C:104.9b D:103.5b E:236b   X:805.9m
diaspora.sec         A:24.6b  B:58.3b  C:224.3b D:56.6b  E:85.6b  X:8.3b
emptyq.sec           A:6.2b   B:17.2b  C:41.9b  D:14.5b  E:9b     X:4b
fornast.sec          A:38.4b  B:123.6b C:218.7b D:19.7b  E:100.4b X:1b
glimmerdrift.sec     A:60m    B:50.5b  C:5b     D:8.8m   E:240.2m X:100000
gushemege.sec        A:43.4b  B:236.6b C:82.5b  D:54.2b  E:38.2b  X:88.6b
hinter.sec           A:3m     B:40000  C:0      D:0      E:0      X:0
ilelish.sec          A:110b   B:526.1b C:83.3b  D:157.6b E:76b    X:0
ley.sec              A:131.1b B:134.7b C:67.3b  D:16.9b  E:83.2b  X:50.9b
lishun.sec           A:255.7b B:34.3b  C:132.4b D:84.6b  E:69.8b  X:0
magyar.sec           A:49.7b  B:71.4b  C:271.5b D:21.1b  E:11.2b  X:1.4b
massilia.sec         A:236.8b B:498.5b C:187.3b D:25.1b  E:81b    X:0
oldexpanses.sec      A:709.4b B:297.2b C:195.5b D:12b    E:76.3b  X:2.1b
reaversdeep.sec      A:181.9b B:7.7b   C:754.8m D:11b    E:5b     X:0
reft.sec             A:5.9b   B:44.7b  C:40b    D:1b     E:9.6b   X:0
solomanirim.sec      A:1.1t   B:52.6b  C:7.5b   D:60450  E:775320 X:77.2m
spinward.sec         A:121.4b B:46.9b  C:31.8b  D:13b    E:35.9b  X:7.1b
trojanre.sec         A:3.2b   B:10.8b  C:5b     D:50b    E:2b     X:0
verge.sec            A:16.2b  B:49.2b  C:24.9b  D:43.4b  E:97.6b  X:9b
vland.sec            A:197.7b B:142.8b C:151.9b D:106.1b E:273b   X:0
zarushagar.sec       A:12.1b  B:166.5b C:28.1b  D:94.9b  E:14.6b  X:0
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals:              A:4.2t   B:3.5t   C:2.9t   D:1.5t   E:1.7t   X:180.5b

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:29:20 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Trav Movie

A private Space exploration company?

So there is hope for humankind yet, then.


But back to the point:

Low budget or high-budget with effects? Well. We get one shot at this. If
it fails to sell; that's it. So, do we want to make a cheap
straight-to-video movie which we'll all love but which will not advance the
cause, or are we to aim for a mass audience that'll bring in enough money
to make other films a possibility?
Thought so.

Now, to get that mass audience, you need effects. You need explosions and
punchups and the like. Watcvh the opening credits for Babylon 5 - how many
major characters are NOT depicted hitting someone, shooting at someone or
flying a sleek and deadly (Armed) space vessel.

That's what the moviegoing public has been conditioned to expect from SF.
That's what we HAVE to give them if we are to succeed.

But that does not stop us having a great plot and strong characters. 

The Traveller movie need not be as expensive as ST. It could be done for
the budget of a couple of Babylon 5 episodes if the settings were
apppropriate (Thanks Brian for pointing that out!).

What you need is a scriptwiter and a director who understand the material
and know what they want from the movie. Both already exist on the TML. We
also need to show that there is support fpr the idea, that there is a
guarenteed audience (as well as the moviegoing public).

SO: What do we want from the Traveller Movie (Not which actors we want in
what roles). What setting? What sort of plot (Empire-Building, Warfare,
Scout Service, Deep Space Rescue, Merchant-ship adventuring, Twilight's
Peak) do we want to see?

Any thoughts?
MJD.


 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2099
***********************************
